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[supernova777]

To Chris: this is not a Toast version problem. And even though only 5.2.1 and 5.2.3 can record DL media, none of both versions know what a DL DVD really is. They record to it as a unknown 8GB size CD. The main work is done in the DVD writer.
The best and the only result until now was achieved in a Pioneer 110D.
And Yes, after 5.02 Toast is a carbon application that can run in Mac Os 9 and in Mac Os X...

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Computer/Computer+Drives/DVR-110D

[supernova777]

ok now i updated my os to 9.1 so i could continue patching up toast 5..

upon continuing to update my toast version up from the original 5.01 install
i did notice the curious behaviour that toast created a new executable and left the 5.12 one in place
and created 5.13 (so this result differs from the other updates coming before the 5.12->5.13 update
which is somewhat in like with what "bertyboy" from macintoshgarden has claimed.. the updates prior to this
all updated the same executable... )
when i ran the 5.14 updater.. its asked me to select which to update.. 5.12 or 5.13..
naturally 5.14 comes after 5.13 so i selected 5.13..
now its also added a 5.14 executable to my toast 5 directory..
so i have seperate copies of 5.12, 5.13, + 5.14 executables now
and they all have been given the ".app" file extension.. i think he is right
5.13 and above is really for mac os x jaguar + panther but still 'os9 compatible'

actually on second thought i think its fine to use thes versions on os9..
its just changed the format because they introduced cross-compatibility between the two os
as of this version thats all.

also. 5.2.1 update installed fine on mac os 9.1 and does not require 9.2+

now i just need to download this 5.2.1-> 5.2.3 update from macupdate site
and then i can do a file comparison between the file that i patched up
and the 5.2.3 installer..

[MacTron]

To Chris: My Toast version was updated correctly and I know very well what a Buffer Underrun is...
Forget all you can read out there, We are using Mac Os 9.x and Toast 5.x in some way far away that it was originally intended to be used.
We are in unexplored ground. LOL

About UDF: in short:UDF is a shit. IMHO.
About RW : DVD DL RW exist?

and BTW: My Pioneer 110D is white

[supernova777]

my drive is an LG (also white  )
i assume if u go to "recorder info" in toast.. your drive will say the same thing? im guessing..

model:
where:
firmware:
Cache size: 2MB
Special Features: buffer underrun prevention

when burning.. did u press the big record button?
or did u use file menu pulldown ->"write to dvd-ram"
because i think the red record button is for cds only in this version of toast..
and u must specify that you are using a dvd by using this pulldown from the file menu

i just tried to put my leopard DVD (Which is DL) and toast 5 says there is no disc in the drive
even tho obviously there is.... hmm
maybe this is because i have to disable now, the apple cd extension for reading discs?
because i updated past toast 5.02...

[supernova777]

my drive just successfully read my snow leopard dual layer disc with mac os 9 os..
except..
it only shows a partition for WINDOWS!
it comes up saying "Windows support"
and some files + directories related to bootcamp
but its reading these files + directories from the Dual Layer DVD
so it must be related to *Filesystem*
??

Whatever filesystem its using to write the mac portion of the snow leopard disc doesnt mount
the reason it can read the windows files partition on the snow leopard dual layer disc is because its in iso9660 format
and (hopefully im wrong) because its on the first layer of the dvd?

[supernova777]

maybe this UDF + ISO9660 compatible filesystems need to be explored

examining the UDF chart on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format
shows mac os 9 compatible with UDF v1.02 + v1.50 and looking further to the "Write" column it says "YES" meaning mac os 9 can write in UDF to a dvd
but it gives no information on how this would be accomplished??

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/allcam/cdformat.html#3
ISO vs. UDF
ISO 9660 have been used as the main CD format for many years now. Most of the CD nowsdays still use this format, the benefit of this format is that it is readable by all CD drive or CD player, and can be shared between PC and MAC.

Universal Disk Format (UDF) is a newer file system for CD and DVDdeveloped and managed by the Optical Storage Technology Association as the successor to the ISO 9660 standard. UDF overcomes limitations of ISO 9660 and redirectors such as CDFS. UDF is used to ensure compatibility across platforms, as well as among various CD and DVD applications. UDF is required for DVDs, and is used by DVD to contain MPEG audio/video streams, UDF is also used by CD-R and CD-RW in a process called packet writing that makes CD writing more efficient in terms of the time and disk space required.

Different revisions of UDF
UDF have many different revisions, from revision 1.0, 1.02, 1.5, 2.0, to 2.01, and revision 1.02 is specified for use by DVD drives, difference between these revisions are available from OSTA website.

UDF 1.02 is the 'most' compatible file system.
When you choose to create a DVD to play video and choose UDF/ISO, UDF 1.02 will be used ( by the burning software ) to ensure best compatibility.
But if you choose DVD-Video mode when you burn a DVD, the default format is UDF 1.5 format, not 1.02, which might cause it not readable by other DVD drives and DVD players.

offtopic: under mac os x 10.4 the graph shows UDF version 2.50 & 2.60 is only supported via some toast 9+ HD support

it could be that simply going to file menu pulldown inside toast 5 and selecting "Write DVD-RAM" makes it write the disc as "ISO/UDF"?
this is my guess. from what i have read earlier + quoted above.. apparently writing the data to the disc in this filesystem greatly reduces the risk for buffer underrun error to occur.

[supernova777]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-RAM

A DVD-RAM disc can be identified by many small rectangles distributed on the surface of the data carrier

DVD-RAM (DVD–Random Access Memory) is a disc specification presented in 1996 by the DVD Forum, which specifies rewritable DVD-RAM media and the appropriate DVD writers. DVD-RAM media have been used in computers as well as camcorders and personal video recorders since 1998.

so this is a very old specific type of media disc

http://www.videomaker.com/article/9716-dvr-r-dvdr-dvd-ram-whats-the-difference

DVD-RAM

DVD-RAM was the first recordable and rewritable standard to hit the market and was defined by the DVD Forum (dvdforum.org), which is composed of over 220 companies. DVD-RAM discs can hold 4.7GB per side (for a total of 9.4GB on a dual-sided disc), although other sizes and capacities are available. As a rewritable format for data on a computer, DVD-RAM discs are great. Some come in a plastic cartridge or housing that makes them physically incompatible with many devices, but DVD-RAM discs are not generally compatible with living room DVD players anyhow. You will find standalone living room DVD burners using the DVD-RAM format, and even some camcorders, but you should not consider DVD-RAM to be a general-purpose distribution format for video.

(i dont think this is the same as dual layer.. does this mean discs where u actually have data on both sides of the disc.. top + bottom.. hence the reference to it being contained in plastic container to protect each side from any physical contact

Compatibility
A DVD-RAM Type 2

Many operating systems like Mac OS (from Mac OS 8.6 up), Linux and Microsoft Windows XP can use DVD-RAM directly, while earlier versions of Windows require separate device drivers or the program InCD.

Windows XP Home and Professional can only write directly to FAT32 formatted DVD-RAM discs. For UDF formatted discs, which are considered faster,[by whom?] a third-party UDF file system driver capable of writing or software such as InCD or DLA are required. Windows Vista and later can natively access and write to both FAT32 and UDF formatted DVD-RAM discs using mastered burning method or packet writing. Even though it is possible to use any file system one likes, very few perform well on DVD-RAM. This is because some file systems frequently overwrite data on the disc and the table of contents is contained at the start of the disc. It should also be noted that Windows Vista (and later) implement the CPRM data protection and thus discs formatted under Windows XP (or earlier) have compatibility issues with Vista onwards (and vice versa).

Mac OS up to 9.2 (Mac OS Classic) can read and write HFS, HFS+, FAT, and UDF formatted DVD-RAM discs directly. Mac OS X no longer supports formatting and writing UDF-format DVD-RAM, but supports formatting and writing DVD-RAM in HFS+ format. (HFS and UFS should also be supported on older versions of Mac OS X that retain support for these file systems.)[1][2]

Many DVD standalone players and recorders do not work with DVD-RAM. However, within "RAMPRG" (the DVD-RAM Promotion Group) there are a number of well-known manufacturers of standalone players, recorders, and camcorders that can use DVD-RAM. Panasonic, for instance, has a range of players and recorders which make full use of the advantages of DVD-RAM.

The newest DVD-RAM Specification, DVD-RAM2 (also called RAM2), is not compatible with DVD drives that do not specifically allow reading DVD-RAM2 discs.[3]

Some high end products such as IBM System p frames require DVD-RAM instead of DVD-RW.[4]

[supernova777]

i was trying to do a 6gb disc, but selecting "write to DVD-RAM" doesnt work
it refuses to recognize my disc as a DVD-RAM disc..
just keeps saying "insert a DVD-RAM disc + try again" 
so to use this "write to DVD-RAM" u really have to have a real actual "DVD-RAM" type disc
or maybe this drive doesnt support DL burning at all. i am going to replace with a sony DL burner now + try again

ok im attempting a 6gb disc.. on Memorex DVD+R DL discs
using a SONY DVD RW DRU-810A drive..


this drive doesnt support DVD-RAM at all..

i've set the speed to 12x and there was a check box for buffer underrun prevention which i selected
the timer is counting down from 35min to complete.. fingers crossed!

uh oh
ive just checked the documentation of the drive

Disc manufacturers and discs certified for operation with the DVD/CD rewritable drive DRU-810A, DRX-810UL, and
DRX-810ULT are:
(As of 2005/10/11)
DVD+R DL (Double Layer)
● Verbatim/Mitsubishi Chemical Co., Ltd. Disc labeled for use at 2.4x speed * 4x and 8x write speed setting is also available.

looks like i should have picked 4x or 8x speed setting??

yep just got a "medium error"
well i guess thats one for the bin trying again at 4x
ok i picked 2x speed... i dont care if it takes 3 hrs:D lol as long as it works

[supernova777]

the burn is still going with 15min left to complete..!! farther then last time.. 
praying that it completes!!!! 

annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd... MEDIUM ERROR! 
not sure if i feel like ruining all my DL discs tonight LOL
*sigh* oh well

[supernova777]

perhaps i should try again without "buffer underrun prevention" enabled


Perhaps the right media is whats needed..
http://www.canadacomputers.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=dvd-ram&x=0&y=0

here we see single sided DVD-RAM, single sided DVD-RAM in cartridge 4 format and finally double sided 9.4GB DVD-RAM media

heres some info on using the original dvd-ram drives (which i thought didnt work to burn dvds.. but apparently they only work with DVD-RAM media and not DVD-R or DVD+R)
the article does make reference to double sided DVD-RAMs at the end!!!!

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA44310

Starting Up From DVD-RAM Media

Beginning with Mac OS 9.0.4, Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics and Gigabit Ethernet) computers can use DVD-RAM media as a startup disk. Other computers, which may have a DVD-RAM drive, including the Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White) and the Power Mac G4 (PCI Graphics) cannot use DVD-RAM discs as a startup disk.

Follow these instructions to start up from a DVD-RAM disc:
Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics)
    1. Use Drive Setup 1.9.2 or later to format the DVD-RAM media.
    2. Install Mac OS 9 and the Mac OS 9.0.4 Update on the DVD-RAM disc. If your computer is running Mac OS 9.0.4 or later, you may drag copy that System Folder to the DVD-RAM media.
Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)
    1. Use Drive Setup 2.0.1 or later to format the DVD-RAM media.
    2. Install Mac OS from the Restore or Install CD that came with your computer onto the DVD-RAM disc, or drag copy the active System Folder from your hard disk.

The DVD-RAM disc can now be used to start up a Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics) computer after either:
- using the Startup Disk control panel to select the DVD-RAM disc as the startup disk.
- using the Startup Manager by holding down the Option key at system startup time
- pressing and holding down the C key at system startup time

CD-R discs
-DVD-RAM drives can read CD-R and CD-RW discs, but cannot record them.

DVD-ROM Drives
-Most Generation 3 (or higher) DVD-ROM drives can read Type 2 DVD-RAM discs if they are removed from their cartridge.
(See the DVD-RAM disc's packaging for instructions on how to remove the disc from its cartridge.)
-DVD-ROM drives use only one side of a DVD-RAM disc. If you are using a double-sided DVD-RAM disc, you must eject the disc and flip it over to use the other side.

this last line is talking about using a DVD-RAM disc **in a DVD-ROM type reader/burner**
thought it doesnt say outright that using a dvd-ram media in a dvd-ram drive would support using *double sided dvd-ram*...
this last line, makes me think that it must! beacuse why else would they say this info about DVD-ROM vs DVD-RAM... 
so if this is true. way back then.. mac os 9 supported DVD-RAM double sided.. which is 9GB PER DISC!!!!!!

[supernova777]

and now, a brief look back on the first dvd-ram drives.. which shipped with the:
Power Macintosh G3 and G4: About the DVD-RAM Drive
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3072
This article provides description and usage information for the Apple DVD-RAM Drive for the Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White)and Power Mac G4.

Using the DVD-RAM Drive
Using DVD-RAM discs
DVD-RAM discs come in a cartridge. In some cases, you can remove the disc from the cartridge (and use it in a DVD-ROM drive, for example). In other cases, you cannot remove the disc and therefore must use it in the cartridge with a DVD-RAM drive.
If you need to remove a 2.6 MB DVD-RAM disc from the cartridge, see the documentation that came with the disc for information.
Important: Don't touch the surface of the disc. If you do, you may get data errors or the drive may not be able to read information on the disc.
Note: You can only write to a DVD-RAM disc that is in a cartridge.

Types of CD and DVD Disc Modes Supported
The DVD-RAM drive reads and writes the following DVD discs in cartridge:
    Single-sided 2.6 gigabyte (GB) DVD-RAM Type 1 cartridge (disc not removable) and Type 2 cartridge (disc removable)
    Double-sided 5.2 GB DVD-RAM Type 1 cartridge (disc not removable)
    Single-sided 4.7 GB DVD-RAM Type 1 and Type 2 cartridge (Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) only)
    Double-sided 9.4 GB DVD-RAM Type 1 and Type 2 cartridge (Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) only)

photo of a type 2 DVD-RAM single sided disc (4.7gb per side)

photo of a type 2 DVD-RAM double sided disc (4.7gb per side =9.4gb)

Data capacity
DVD-RAM type 1
2.6 GB, single-sided, single-layer
5.2 GB, double-sided, single-layer

http://www.verbatim-europe.co.uk/en_1/product_dvd-ram-3x_4_0_76.html

DVD-RAM is a rewritable disc providing 4.7GB capacity (9.4GB for Double Sided). Compliant with the DVD-Forum specifications. DVD-RAM is designed for data intensive, high performance applications. Data storage on DVD-RAM can be accessed in the same manner as a hard drive, with drag and drop capabilities, and can be overwritten 100,000 times.(and lasting up to 30 years)

so these strange dvd drives on the powermac g3..

i never understood them properly i guess
they accepted using these double sided cartridge type 1 DVD-RAM.... up to 5.2gb for type 1 (on powermac g3/g4 /w DVD-RAM drive)
and up to 9.4gb for type 2 (only on the gigabit/mystic g4 /w DVD-RAM drive)
i remember back 10 years ago i would always try to burn on these and always get errors.. **probably because i was using the wrong type of dvd** and didnt know
i have thrown these in the garbage thinking they couldnt burn anything.. because they cant burn the normal cds or dvds, only read.. + write DVD-RAM.. but wow.. no wonder apple chose this for the powermac g3 B&W.... and the standard was never really adopted globally.. but they saw it as the superior choice.. unbelievable

Disc speed
    DVD-RAM: 1x Zone constant linear velocity (ZCLV)

also it only supports 1x speed on this original dvd-ram drive featured in b&w g3/sawtooth g4

[supernova777]

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/toast-write-dvd-ram-disk/

How can I use Toast to write to a DVD-RAM disk?
First it is important to realize that only Apple Brand DVD-RAM drives are supported. Unless your DVD-RAM drive came in your Mac, it is likely that Toast will not be able to see it.
To write to the DVD-RAM drive, use the DVD format and add the files you want to the layout.
Go to the file menu and choose the Write to DVD-RAM option.

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/erase-dvd-ram-disks-toast/

How do I erase DVD-RAM disks with Toast?
This information applies to Toast Titanium 5.X on the following Operating System(s): Mac OS 8.6,Mac OS 9.X, Mac OS 10.X
To erase an entire DVD-RAM disc that has been recorded by Toast, abort a write to DVD-RAM, then reinsert the disc after quitting Toast and the Mac OS Finder will offer to initialize the entire disc.

we know toast 5 supports DVD-RAM - this is a fact.
maybe you have to use Drive setup to initialize the filesystem on the disc first when using DVD-RAM before writing to the disc with toast?
i guess thats why the cd/dvd shows up in drive setup..

http://www.maxellcanada.com/dvd_tech/dvd-ram_wp.htm

What is DVD-RAM?
DVD-RAM is a high-performance, rewritable/recordable, optical disc that enables information to be read, written, erased and re-written again. It acts similar to a floppy disc, where programs can be run from it, data can be stored, or files can be written and deleted. Current DVD-RAM capacity is 4.7GB for a single sided disc and 9.4GB for a double-sided disc. First generation capacity was 2.6GB for a single sided disc and 5.2GB for a double-sided disc. DVD-RAM drives feature backward read compatibility with all CD formats and enhanced durability (100,000 re-write cycles and a 30 + year life span). Double-sided RAM discs can hold more than 14 times that of a standard CD-R. DVD-RAM is the format of choice for such manufacturers as Hitachi, Panasonic and Toshiba.

What are the different types of DVD-RAM?
There are two types of DVD-RAM cartridges: Type 1 is double sided and Type 2 is single sided. Type 2 cartridges can be removed from their cartridges and Type 1 discs are sealed in the cartridge and are not removable. Single sided DVD-RAM discs, when removed from their cartridge, can be read in current DVD-RAM consumer players and computer DVD ROM drives. Double-sided discs are not removable from their cartridges and can only be played back or written in cartridge compatible drives and players.

How does DVD-RAM work?
DVD-RAM is different than DVD-R in that it uses re-writable phase change material rather than the write-once organic dye material that comprises a DVD-R and a CD-R. When writing, a laser heats the phase change material in the disc to about 900-1300F, changing its reflective properties from shiny to dull. If the disc needs to be erased, a laser heats the disc again to about 400F to return the disc to its original shiny state. A laser of lesser power is used to read the written marks. These shiny and dull marks represent data to a computer. They are then interpreted by the computer and then translated into usable information. Second Generation 4.7GB (single sided) and 9.4 (double sided) DVD-RAM achieve their higher capacities by decreasing track width and laser spot size.

What are the differences between DVD-RAM and the other rewritable formats?
First, DVD-RAM media is random access like a hard disk. This enables DVD-RAM to retrieve data faster then the other available formats (current DVD-RAM transfer rate is 22.16Mbps). Secondly, DVD-RAM is more robust than it's competition. It is rated at 100,000 rewrites, while DVD RW and DVD+RW specify approximatly1000 rewrites. DVD-RAM has 9 internal recording surfaces as compared to 3 internal recording surfaces for DVD-RW and DVD+RW. DVD-RAM's metal alloy was created for computer use and therefore affords RAM a far greater number of rewrites. RAM also boasts a sophisticated ECC error correction scheme that makes it ideal for data applications.

What applications is DVD-RAM best suited for?
DVD-RAM's durability and high number of rewrites make it the perfect solution for multifunction jukeboxes providing high capacity, on line storage for document imaging and full motion video. Because of DVD-RAM's speed and error correction technology, these discs are also suited for backup and archiving. DVD-RAM also provides videographers with a solution for storing DV and analog productions instead of hard disc or videotape. By using removable DVD-RAM for mastering and archiving instead of space limited hard drives or poor quality VHS tape, users will achieve the highest quality possible and gain added flexibility. RAM is also well suited for the medical or legal industries. DVD-RAM is currently being utilized in hospitals and radiology labs to store X-rays, CAT scans and other large image files. This provides medical professionals with a reliable, low-cost means of storing test results digitally so they can be easily accessed and shared with others.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/dvd-ram

DVD-RAM - Definition
A rewritable DVD disc endorsed by the DVD Forum. Using phase change technology, DVD-RAMs are like removable hard disks, and the media can be rewritten 100,000 times compared to 1,000 times for DVD-RW and DVD+RW. The first DVD-RAM drives with a capacity of 2.6GB (single sided) or 5.2GB (double sided) became available in the spring of 1998. DVD-RAM Version 2 discs with 4.7GB arrived in late 1999, and double-sided 9.4GB discs in 2000. DVD-RAM drives typically read DVD-Video, DVD-ROM and all types of CD media. See DVD, DVD storage capacities, DVD+RW, DVD-RW and optical disc.

i feel sick to my stomach, ive thrown out a bunch of these drives.. thinking they were shit because they dont burn CD-R or DVD+R... but all along i should have been using DVD-RAM disc with those strange tray loading.. and they looked strange like that because they hold double sided discs.. unbelievable

[MacTron]

Just for the record:

I've used the following CD/DVD recorders:

- Pioneer 110D
- Samsung SH-S222
- LG GH24NSB0
- LITE-ON SHW-1635S

With Verbatim and Memorex DVD 16X DL media.

The write software was Toast 5.2.3

The best result I achieve was using Pioneer 110D and Verbatim media. But the most common error in this escenario was a finishing error:



The reading software tested (CD/DVD drivers) was:
- Apple CD/DVD Driver.
- Toast CD reader.
- Intech CD/DVD speed tools.

None of this can read the recorded disk but Mac Os x. Even Though Toast CD reader usually reads DL media.

After those test, my opinion is that DL can be achieved in Mac os 9 with the right combination of DVD Writer and DVD Media and Toast 5.2.x ... but it is not really reliable...

May be we have to forget this and to begin to consider BluRay in Mac Os 9. LOL

[supernova777]

my disc is also readable in osx on 10.4.1 -- the one that "failed" so i think u are right that its the "lead out" finishing that is screwing up
i think maybe its because toast 5 was programmed to record to DVD-RAM not DVD+R or DVD-R ****wrong.. below i found an article saying DVD-R + DVD-RW are supported by toast 5 100%

i cant believe i never understood this........ it seems to me that we have been fooled. DVD-RAM seems to be superior in many ways to DVD+R & DVD-R!!
the fact that it writes slow (1x-4x) is ok when u realize that its basically an optical hard drive...that can be overwritten + rewritten...and reads almost as fast as a real hard drive (22mb/s)
its basically a reusable optical hard drive!

now im looking up the difference between dvd-ram + rewritables..
i just put a dvd+r RW into the g4... and tried to go to "recorder" -> "Erase" and it gave me the msg
"only CD-RW + DVD-RW can be erased" so not sure if that means toast only supports "DVD-R RW"(not "DVD+R RW")
or if its the sony drive itself that doesnt support erasing on "DVD+R RW" media

this shit is so confusing
i just looked thru all my binders i cant find a single DVD-R RW all of the rewritable discs i have ever had are all DVD+R RW

wow i was able to find 2 discs.. out of hundreds LOL
DVD-R RW has more of a silver metallic look on the data side...
trying to erase with toast 5 / mac os 9..

its working! its allowing me to erase the disc..
taking a long ass time tho

SUCCESS!
the DVD-RW disc was erased sucessfuly..
it took about 20-25min but its erased.. 4.7gb of freespace

heres what else i learned..
my sony dl drive.. it isnt seen as being capable of DVD-RAM by toast or Drive setup
drivesetup sees it as a 'DVD-ROM'

upon replacing the old LG(made by hitachi "HL") dvd "multi-drive"
when i booted into os9 it asked me if i wanted to initialize the dvd
but drive setup itself.. when i go into see if i can initialize the DVD-RW disc..
instead of saying "cannot initialize read-only blah blah" that it said with the sony drive
now it says "cannot initialize a disk in an unsupported drive"
so this is strange because like i said the os gave me a window asking me to do it when it saw the disc in the drive
as i booted up.. i guess i will reboot + see if i can initialize this DVD-RW disc that i just erased..
the only formatting options it gives me is "mac os standard" or "prodos"
and then it tells me the disc is locked... probably because of the "unsupported drive"
maybe its to do with drive setup version?
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1826.msg9291#msg9291
this post i quoted somethign about initializing disks with drive setup
but thats for dvd-ram discs not dvd-rw..
i dunno. i give up for now;)

[supernova777]

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/faq/power-mac-g4-how-to-replace-upgrade-optical-cd-dvd-drive.html

How do you replace or upgrade the optical drive in the Power Mac G4 models? What are the capabilities of the default optical drives? What is DVD-RAM?

It is simple to replace or upgrade the optical drive in the Power Mac G4 models and for systems that shipped with anything less than a DVD-R/CD-RW "SuperDrive" an upgrade is particularly worthwhile. Even systems that shipped with an optical drive capable of writing to single layer DVD-R are good candidates for many users to upgrade to a dual-layer DVD burner.

For those who have more recently picked up a Power Macintosh G4 and are not familiar with the ill-fated DVD-RAM standard, it is an archaic rewritable DVD format that can store between 2.6 GB (one sided) and 5.2 GB (double sided) on a disc. DVD-RAM can read DVD-ROM and DVD-Video discs, but can only write to DVD-RAM discs.

DVD-RAM could be used along with video editing software to create a DVD-Video disc layout with MPEG-2 video and AC-3 audio, which could be replayed in DVD-RAM drives, but not in DVD-Video drives. Any Power Macintosh G4 with a DVD-RAM drive defintely is a great candidate for an upgrade.

All Power Macintosh G4 models use an EIDE (ATA-3) bus for the optical drive, and the default capabilities of the optical drive that shipped with each -- as well as instructions from Apple and site sponsor Other World Computing -- are provided below:

i kinda want to use my 2nd optical bay in my mdd now for a DVD-RAM drive!!!! "ill-fated + archaic" LOL but yet it can write a 9.4 gb Double sided DVD! that can be erased + overwritten 5x as many times as normal rewritables.. and has a data throughput of 22mb/s?? yet everymac is talkin trash.. because like most people think its shit because THEY DONT HAVE ANY DVD-RAM DISCS!! LOL
and they just want to burn a cd for the car.. or burn a dvd for the video disc player..
but for "backup" needs.. software.. mp3s...  the DVD-RAM sounds fucking DOPE and its mac os 9 toast-5 compatible



even if u just use the single sided, non funky cartridge ones, one type is 2.6gb per side, and the other is 4.7gb per side, double sided giving 5.2gb or 9.4gb. thats amazing for backup!!! and u can erase it! a gazillion times.. and reuse it..
sounds WIN to me

[MacTron]

Virtually all formats of CD and DVD are supported in Mac Os 9, including "+", "-", "mini"(8 cm), "RW" "RAM" and probably DL. But the combination of the DVD burner and media can result in a weird combination of support and unsupported formats, I'll show some weird facts that I know:

- LG GH24NSB0: To write a CD-RW, only Sony branded are accepted. Thanks god that are the fastest 10X.

- LITE-ON SHW-1635S: To write a DVD, only Auchan branded are accepted. Thanks god that are the cheapest here

- LITE-ON SOHW-1673S Reads everything on Mac Os 9 but newer wrote anything successfully.

- Pioneer 110D works very well, may be the only one that can wrote  a DL DVD.

...

[supernova777]

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/18946/what-exactly-is-a-dvd-ram-drive-and-how-does-it-work

There are three formats for rewritable DVD discs: DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM.

DVD-RW
DVD-RW is a rewriteable format (similar in nature to CD-RW). DVD-RW has a read-write capacity of 4.7 gigabytes per side. It can be rewritten up to about 1000 times. Both DVD-R and DVD-RW were developed and approved by the DVD Forum (http://www.dvdforum.org), of which Apple is a member.
The SuperDrive can use DVD-RW discs. Mac OS X can write to DVD-R General Media discs, which are not rewriteable. Roxio's Toast 5 Titanium and Charismac's Discribe 5 can write to DVD-RW discs. Contact Roxio and Charismac for additional information.
Once written, DVD-R and DVD-RW discs can be used in many different drives and players. The DVD Compatibility page (http://www.apple.com/dvd/compatibility) only lists players compatible with DVD-R discs. Because of differences in DVD-R and DVD-RW media, not all players that read DVD-R discs will read DVD-RW discs. Check with the player manufacturer for DVD-RW compatibility information.

DVD+RW
DVD+RW is a rewriteable format of similar capacity to DVD-RW, but was developed separately by the DVD+RW Alliance (http://www.dvdrw.com/). DVD+RW is not write compatible with DVD-R drives such as the SuperDrive, so the SuperDrive cannot write to DVD+RW discs.

DVD-RAM
DVD-RAM can be looked at as a large capacity floppy or Zip disk as it is has random read-write access. The disc is part of a cartridge and is available in 2.6 GB and 4.7 GB single-sided and 5.2 GB and 9.4 GB double-sided capacities. It can be rewritten more than one hundred thousand times. DVD-RAM was developed by the DVD Forum seperately from the release of DVD-R and DVD-RW.
While some DVD-RAM discs can be removed from the cartridge, those discs cannot be read by or written to using the SuperDrive.
Information about products not manufactured by Apple is provided for information purposes only, and does not constitute Apple's recommendation or endorsement. Please contact the vendor for additional information. Document 17159 can help you search for a particular vendor's address and phone number: "Locating Vendor Information"

DVD-RW DL + DVD+RW DL do not exist !!! its a big confusion among consumers because sometimes these manufacturers put this "RW" logo on the Dual Layer disc
even tho all DL discs are either +R  or -R *NOT +RW or -RW*
there is no dual layer or rewritable disc greater then 4.7gb on either + or - Format
***THIS IS WHY DVD-RAM DOUBLE SIDED WOULD KICK ASSSS!!!!!
because its 5.2gb or 9.4gb..AND REWRITABLE!
bigger then any other "Write-Once" dual layer by almost 1gb!!!!***

http://www.computerweekly.com/feature/White-Paper-DVD-RAM-Is-it-a-reliable-technology

[supernova777]

my questions having read all this info...

can a old DVD-RAM drive (shipped with a powermac g3 originally in 1999)
read/write to new DVD-RAM media?

The article "about the dvd-ram drive" from the apple site made reference to "type 1" + "type 2" dvd-ram media
but these new media say "type 4"

*note that it says disc removable to indicate that this dvd-ram disc can be removed from its cartridge
these dvd-ram discs are effectively 9.4gb optical backup hard drives capable of being written to in the same style as a floppy disc
differently from most dvd types u dont have to burn the whole disc or a portion of the disc to write to it

question is.. is this 'backward compatible'?

we know toast 5 supports DVD-RAM.. and from the time of the powermac g3's release apple supported DVD-RAM by shipping .. i think it was an upgrade option .. DVD-RAM drives with powermac g3 b&w, sawtooth, + gigabit ethernet models (later quicksilvers + mdds came with *superdrive* instead of dvd-ram)

so does anyone have an *original* apple DVD-RAM drive in their mac still?
most people would have replaced this drive because of the fact that it doesnt burn normal cd or dvd..
but maybe someone out there has a new old stock mac in which this wasnt replaced...
would u be willing to do a test by getting one of these DVD-RAM Verbatim discs
the discs are about 10$ each on average i think but they are reusable up to 500,000 times (thats alot)
we need someone with an original Apple DVD-RAM to test to see if these new dvd-ram discs are still compatible with the very old DVD-RAM drives!!!!!!!

i think to use a double sided disc u need to have this different loading mechanism that either takes a square cartiidge placed inside the drive
or the strange slot loading style like this

which accepts a dvd-ram double sided disc without its cartridge
or a cartridge loading one like this:
9.4GB
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igMS27pMces[/youtube]

[supernova777]

most of the LG burners that say "multi recorder" or "super multi" are supposed to support DVD-RAM burning with DVD-RAM media
question is if Mac os 9 will allow this.... my toast 5 recognized my LG burner as a dvd-ram..but the sony burner i have is only DVD R/RW and doesnt support DVD-RAM
the LG burner is also seen as "dvd-ram GSA-4082B" in apple system profiler
of course when i try to write files to a disc using "write to dvd-ram" toast 5 obviously recognizes that this disc is not media
of the "Dvd-ram" type and does not allow..

im trying to get my hands on some dvd-ram media to test this further!
the question im wanting to answer now is:
will the LG "multi-recorders" support mac os 9 initialization + drag n drop copying via finder?
or is this integrated use of dvd-ram only available with official "Apple" dvd-ram's manufactured "to apple specification"
its possible the lg just might work! (allowing on the fly per-file burning via drag n drop via finder)
not the original goal of this thread, but a very interesting development! 

[IIO]

The DVD Driver (LG GH24NSB0) support up to 24X DVD write speed.

according to LG this burner supports a max of 8x for +R DL as well as -R DL.

sorry if missed it but how do you connect? ATA SATA or firewire? DL via firewire should be supported when i recall right.

if not, just install that utility called "MacOS X" and use that to burn.