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[supernova777]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDvNBmrTONw[/youtube]
this video demonstrates visually the front-slot loading mechanisms ability to load cartridge or bare discs
PD logo stands for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-change_Dual

[supernova777]

disc burning speed reference

dvd speeds vs cd speeds
http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa4.htm

[supernova777]

on my last post http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1860.msg9419#msg9419
i was looking at this chart, and i noticed the changes column for 9.1 read "integrated disc burning within finder"
is it possible to burn dual layer this way? with finder integrated burning?

i was also reading this document:
http://www.spinergymedia.com/Resources/documents/ISO-Manual.pdf

which talked of toast using many different file systems in how it burns discs
a combination of iso 9660, joliet, UDF + HFS..
althought this may be in reference only to hybrid cd/dvd option of burning?

just trying to understand why the dvd mactron burned was only readable in osx
and not os9.. it must have to do with improper disc finalization??

i found this chart on udf format compatibility..

could it be that toast 5.23 is creating the disc in UDF 2.0 format? rendering it readable only in osx 10.4+?

Long Filenames & CD-ROMs http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan03/articles/pcmusician0103.asp
     The most common CD file system is ISO 9660 Level 1, which only supports filenames in the old DOS-style format of 8+3 (up to eight characters chosen from A-Z, 0-9, and _ [underscore], followed by a dot, with an optional extender of up to three characters). As with DOS, any files that you burn onto a CD-ROM with a longer name will become truncated, so that for instance the Program Files folder will be displayed as 'PROGRA~1'.

Thankfully, there are extensions to this basic standard, allowing you to save and retrieve longer filenames. For PC users Microsoft's Joliet extension allows filenames of up to 64 mixed lower and uppercase characters, and is supported from Windows 95 onwards. Most PC CD-burning packages add the Joliet filesystem to the ISO one, so that if you read them under DOS you'll only see the 8+3 format, while from Windows you'll see the full-length filenames. However, you may still come across some limitations when backing up Windows folders onto CD-ROM, since in addition to the 8+3 filename restrictions, the ISO 9660 standard only supports path depths up to eight levels and a total path name of up to 255 characters.

The UDF (Universal Disk Format) file system specification is optimised to handle huge data sizes and to minimise changes if a file needs to be added or deleted, and was developed for CD-R and CD-R/W media. It's used by DVD-ROM and some packet writing software including Roxio's DirectCD, and is supported by Windows 98 onwards (as well as by Mac OS 8.1 onwards). Without suitable drivers you can only read UDF format CD-ROMs on a CD recorder, so when you close a session to read it on other players, most packet-writing software adds an ISO 9660 file system to make its contents universally visible.

[supernova777]

toast supports many ways of burning cds:

Toast 4
-Mac Volume
-Files&Folders
-ISO9660
-Mac/Iso Hybrid
-Audio CD
-Multitrack CD XA
-Disc Image

Toast 5
-Mac OS CD
-Mac/PC hybrid
-MAc Os Extended CD
-Mac os Extended + PC CD

if u click + hold down on "Other"
-video cd
-mp3 cd
-DVD
-disc image
-Mac Volume
-iso 9660
-custom hybrid

maybe this "other" -> DVD type creates UDF 1.5???
http://2bolo.com/articles/filesystems.html

Packet Writing with DirectCD for Mac
http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/packet-writing-directcd-for-mac/
http://www.atpm.com/4.07/page13.shtml
http://web.archive.org/web/20021201103906/http://www.roxio.com/en/products/ecdc/dcdfaqs.jhtml

What is DirectCD?
A. Easy CD Creator 5 Platinum includes DirectCD - a powerful feature that makes it easy to record data to CD or DVD. DirectCD allows your CD or DVD recordable/rewritable or DVD drive to appear just like any other drive volume. In other words, your drive handles files just like a hard disk or floppy disk. Using Windows Explorer you can drag & drop, rename, move or "delete" files and directories right on your disc. You can use the "Save As" command in your spreadsheet, word processor, or other application to save files directly to disc as well.

[MacTron]

just trying to understand why the dvd mactron burned was only readable in osx
and not os9.. it must have to do with improper disc finalization??

That's what I think.

But why after 8 GB of data writing it can't write the disk finalization?
And that weird message: "INVALID FIELD IN CDB"

[supernova777]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDDB

How CDDB works

CDDB was designed around the task of identifying entire CDs, not merely single tracks. The identification process involves creating a "discid", a sort of "fingerprint" of a CD created by performing calculations on the track duration information stored in the table-of-contents of the CD (see the following section for an example calculation). This discid is used with the Internet database, typically either to download track names for the whole CD or to submit track names for a newly identified CD.

This information is often provided by end users.[12] In iTunes, which uses Gracenote, users name the CD tracks and then use the "Submit Track Names" option under the "Advanced" heading in the toolbar to submit track information.[13]

Since identification of CDs is based on the length and order of the tracks, CDDB cannot identify playlists in which the order of tracks has been changed, or compilations of tracks from different CDs. CDDB also cannot distinguish between different CDs that have the same number of tracks and the same track lengths.

u must have tried to burn it as a cd and not as a dvd
u have to use the DVD setting under the "other" menu (DVD was new at the time, hence the "other" placement)

this will burn the disc into udf format.. most likely 1.02 udf format.. or 1.5 udf format
another way i think it could work is to use the "disc image" option and create first a 7gb disc image with disc copy and then use that as the 'disc image' source for the dvd - this would ensure a mac os 9 readable hfs+ filesystem 100%

i was just about to test these options myself but hte drive i installed back into the mac (LG GSA 4082B) doesnt support dual layer... i have to replace back this sony burner to try again..

under toast 5 preferences there is a default value of freedb.org that its using as the CDB
also settings for disk cache + ram cache may be important for buffer underrun

[MacTron]

Thank You Chris but CDB isn't the same as CDDB.

another way i think it could work is to use the "disc image" option and create first a 7gb disc image with disc copy and then use that as the 'disc image' source for the dvd - this would ensure a mac os 9 readable hfs+ filesystem 100%

I've tried this also.

[supernova777]

"INVALID FIELD IN CDB"
CDB stands for "Command Descriptor Block"
its part of how the program communicates with the drive

after checking google a number of different result for this
this is possibly related to:

"incompatible media"
"using the wrong speed for the media"
"using buffer underrun prevention on - media" (or other error prevention techniques)

basically the drive is responding with this error because its being told to do something that it doesnt support?
for example i found a thread where disabling some feature in nero (on pc) called "jitter correction" got rid of their error
the reason for their problem was that this drive didnt support this feature
http://club.myce.com/f96/invalid-field-cdb-052400-error-when-scanning-w-nero-cd-dvd-speed-discspeed-243961/

theres not many other thijngs to change in toast 5 preferences
other then deselecting "buffer underrun prevention"
if you are using + media i read that you should not use this buffer underrun prevention setting
its only intended for dvd-r + dvd-rw media

examining this info:
http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/scsi/2930/aha-2930cu/use_prod/scsi_event_codes.htm?nc=/en-us/support/scsi/2930/aha-2930cu/use_prod/scsi_event_codes.htm

Typical codes: 04 (format), 2F (verify), (03) request sense, 25 (read capacity) Host Adapter Status (usually 00h "no host adapter error" Indicated no error on the host adapter)

25 (read capacity) could be generating an error because of the size of the disc...
that would really suck if thats the problem;(
its definately part of the sesion close communication
during the communication of the required parameters to write the finalization somethijng is going wrong

is there any way under os 9 to see the properties of the drive?
the pioneer drive "DVR-109" properties in the image attached show it only supports DL burning on + type media
are u sure u used the right speed for DL? 8x is the usual speed for DL media
have u tried burning on 1x or 2x just to see what would happen?

[MacTron]

theres not many other thijngs to change in toast 5 preferences
other then deselecting "buffer underrun prevention"
if you are using + media i read that you should not use this buffer underrun prevention setting
its only intended for dvd-r + dvd-rw media

Yes, I know. I've tested this also, without better result.

its definately part of the sesion close communication
during the communication of the required parameters to write the finalization somethijng is going wrong

Yes... but what?

[supernova777]

is there a verbose log generated by toast somewhere to check ?
to see a more detailed error?

[IIO]

mactron care to answer my questions?

oh, and i just see you are burning files and folders. have you tried burning an image file yet?

[supernova777]

http://www.nero.com/enu/company/press/press-release.php?id=239
nero 6 claims to be the first software to support dual layer as of feb 22nd 2005

BUT then i found this:
http://www.roxio.com/enu/company/press/archive/2004/roxio_delivers_dvd_double_layer_burning_software.html
April 27, 2004 Easy Media Creator 7 OEM with DVD+R DL Capabilities Now Available Along with Update for Retail Customers

dual layer vs double layer? different technology?
Double Layer = DVD+R DL?
Dual layer = DVD-R DL?

AND NOW i find this:
http://www.roxio.ca/enu/company/press/archive/2004/roxio_to_deliver_dvd_double_layer_burning_software_for_mac.html
Roxio Delivers DVD Double Layer Burning Software  (April 27, 2004)

[supernova777]

so here we have it...

DVD+R DL was supported way before DVD-R DL
toast 6 first to support this..
*BUT* was part that technology added to the 5.x final update aswell?
we need to find a DATE for the final update of toast 5.23 i have looked for this but havent found it yet

checking the date of the 5.23 update file it is
November 13th 2003

so maybe its time to give up and just boot to X and use Roxio Toast 6 (whichever update is after april 27th 2004)

http://www.roxio.ca/enu/company/press/archive/2003/roxio_announces_release_of_toast_6_titanium.html
August 18, 2003 Roxio Announces Release of Toast 6 Titanium Compatible with Mac OS 10.2 and higher

i guess double layer (using DVD+R DL media) requires the first update Toast Titanium **v6.1.1**
heres the link http://softwareupdates.roxio.com/gm/ja_updates/toast/toast_ti_611_update.zip
zip so extract only on X

checking the file date of the readme file in the installer .dmg
created april 15th 2004
modified april 19th 2004

5 months out from the 5.23 update date of november 13 2003 (alot closer then i thought!!!!!!!!!!!!)
can so much change in 5 months?

perhaps a test of 5.23 working under mac os x would prove successfull?
the question is.. which is more important.. software or hardware?

unfortunately i think both have to work together ;/

here is a thread
http://macosx.com/threads/update-toast-5-2-1-titanium-or-later-to-5-2-3.38793/
claims that 5.23 version was updated for compatibility with mac os x panther 10.3

here is a backup of the original update post as it was seen in december 2003
http://web.archive.org/web/20031202025303/http://www.roxio.com/en/support/toast/software_updatesv5.jhtml
original file name: RToast_Ti_Updater_523.hqx

but the thing is.. was there even DVD drives that could do DVD+R DL at that time?
heres a press release from pioneer
http://news.cnet.com/Pioneer-doubles-down-on-DVD-recorder/2100-1041_3-5268089.html
from july 2004
whos timing coincides with this press release on the pioneer site
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Press-Room/Professional-Products/Pioneer+Introduces+World%27s+First+and+Fastest+Multiple+Format+DVD+Drive+Combined+with+4X+Double+Layer+Write+Technology

the drive: Pioneer DVR-A08
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Computer/Computer+Drives/DVR-A08XL
+

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/138551408DVR108_GSpecs.pdf

DVD-R 16X Zone CLV
DVD-RW 4X Zone CLV 
DVD+R (Single Layer) 16X Zone CLV
DVD+R DL (Double Layer) 4X Zone CLV
DVD+RW 4X Zone CLV 
CD-R 32X Zone CLV
CD-RW 24X Zone CLV

so it looks like Double layer with ("+") type media was introduced at 4x speed
with drives appearing summer of 2004 , a few months behind the software
(checking the original optical drive to come with my
quicksilver 933mhz it is a "2x superdrive" which is also known as a DVR-104 Pioneer drive, same series/manufacturer but earlier technology
but the point i wanted to make: it shows "Apple supported burning" in system profiler under mac os 9 so maybe all pioneer DVR series burners
will show the same? because my hitachi/LG HL-DT-ST drives do not show as apple supported)

i think i better stop trying to figure this out and just use Toast 6.1.1 or above to burn disc image from mac os 9 disk copy NDIF .img
but if anyone wants to test further with 5.23... before i said that DVD-R DL would be better.. but i was wrong.. DVD+R DL @ 4X is the one to try, using "DVD" setting under "OTHER" menu
its support came first apparently!

[supernova777]

heres an earlier article linked to by the pioneer drive article
http://news.cnet.com/The-duel-of-the-dual-layer-DVD-formats/2100-1041_3-5130905.html
December 29, 2003

[supernova777]

just ran another test with the sony, and it was looking good, i think it failed somewhere near the 4.2gb mark.. with a sense key, medium error
i took screenshots... not sure if its the memorex DVD+R DL media doesnt like the sony drive... ive not once gotten the "INVALID FIELD IN CDB" error that you got mactron..
im curious tho, if theres anway for us to compare how much data is written to your disc before the fail.. im wondering if its failing just at the point in which the total mb has gone
past the amount for single layer normal DVD-R

again.. putting the DVD into my mac g5.. it reads it 100%!
the disc is named just as i intended to name it..."DoubleYu"
clicking the very last file on the file structure, which happened to be a pdf..
the pdf opens fine! 100%! the disc seems to contain all the data from the
burn .. the total size of this test: 5.89gb reported in Tiger... roughly 3 gb per folder
it mounts just fine.. all files accessible in Tiger just fine..

same result as you - inserting this disc back int he mac os 9 machine it was made in
results in no mount.

this is why i was wondering if its somehow writing in udf format 2.0 which tiger can interpret
but mac os 9 cannot.. very strange!!!!!!!!

checking the disc info from toast 7 ti in tiger i get this:


according to the image it shows the second sesion is still "open" and was never closed properly
i never told it to write "sessions" but i did drag in two directories to toast 5... to make the file size of the disk
go beyond the 4.7gb for testing..

checking file size of the two containing directories i wrote to the disk (with CMD-i in tiger)
the directories show the proper size!

[supernova777]

im now doing a "Compare" with toast 7 titanium..
i turned on file sharing on the sawtooth... and logged into it from tiger via AFP:// protocol
which gave me access to my data drive partition and ive dragged in the containing folder which contains the same 2 directories i burned to the disc..
its comparing the files to see if any data is omitted..

this might take awhile.... but so far its not finding any errors!

could it be just the finalization that is the problem?
how is finalizing a double layer any different from a normal dvd?
obviously theres some difference that is making it not work..

this reminds me of something i read about dvd-ram

-Finalization not necessary. For video recording use, other media such as DVD+RW (when used in DVD+VR mode) do not require a separate finalisation either as finalisation is automatic. The table of contents can be overwritten in this latter media. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-RAM

ok in the end there was MANY files that are "data mismatch"
or "error reading copy" so even tho it appeared to be 100%
the write definately did not complete...

i think im done with this topic

[MacTron]

mactron care to answer my questions?

What question? May be I've missed something...

oh, and i just see you are burning files and folders. have you tried burning an image file yet?

another way i think it could work is to use the "disc image" option and create first a 7gb disc image with disc copy and then use that as the 'disc image' source for the dvd - this would ensure a mac os 9 readable hfs+ filesystem 100%

I've tried this also.

[supernova777]

dual layer dvd on mac os 9....exists..
only in my dreams 

but, 9.4GB DVD-RAM i bet is supported 100%

i still cant believe u say nothing about this topic..
i will be getting a 5x DVD-RAM and some cartridges for sure
i cant wait;)

[MacTron]

but, 9.4GB DVD-RAM i bet is supported 100%
i still cant believe u say nothing about this topic..

I've known the existence of DVD-RAM long time ago. But I haven't used it ever, and I'm not really interested on it.
But yours is a good report, and a good info about DVD-RAM.

And I've also used UDF and DirectCD with very bad results...

And I've also used the App (I don't remember its name) to enable CD-DVD Drivers support to Apple Disk Burn software. I don't know if this still work...

[Philgood]

Yeah.

I was thinking in this software Mactron.
It's called Patchburn but it's for OSX.
I used it too in the past to enable some LG burners to work through an external firewire case with mac osx.
i also experimented with patching firmware of some burners. but that was for making them support more media types.
i actually have one LG burner that sees as Benq drive.
I didn't remember that actually until i was beginning to read that interesting thread and put the drive again to test a dvd-ram i have under os9 and the LG drive showed as Benq.
It isn't possible to write to the disc by the way as mac os9 doesn't support it.