Author Topic: DVD Burning. Dual Layer DVDs and DVD-RAM in Mac Os 9.  (Read 67613 times)

supernova777

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DVD Burning. Dual Layer DVDs and DVD-RAM in Mac Os 9.
« on: September 23, 2014, 07:41:48 PM »
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA23199
http://www.diffen.com/difference/DVD%2BR_vs_DVD-R

is it the physical drives in the g5's that introduced DVD+DL burning?
are g4's incapable of burning 8gb dvds?

i guess we just have to check apple system profiler

if g4s running os9 cannot burn dual layer dvd..
can they do it under osX?
if there is a software limitation perhaps we can find a way around it?

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1873213?tstart=0
reading this article seems to indicate that its possible if u install an upgraded modern dvd drive

« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 11:23:49 AM by MacTron »

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 10:20:58 PM »
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA23199
...
are g4's incapable of burning 8gb dvds?


Quote
The new SuperDrives built into the Power Mac G5 (Early 2005), iMac G5 (Ambient Light Sensor) computers, and eMac (Early 2005) computers now support DVD+R DL media, which means in addition to reading Double-Layer DVDs, they can write to a DVD+R DL disc.
All eMacs are G4s. See the previously trusted everymac  ;D
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/index-emac.html
The eMac (Early 2005) specs...
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/faq/differences-between-last-emac-2005-models.html
It is curious and offtopic that this model is the only G4 that stock has Quartz Extreme...
A powerful and beautiful machine... A shame that we cant boot OS9 there...This could be our next target for the OS9 bootability... The last machines from the eMac family.
The last one that boots OS9 is the "combo" version of http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.0.html with a GHz PowerPC 7445  :P
Quote
Only the original "Combo" drive configuration (M8950LL/A) is capable of booting into Mac OS 9
but the superdrive version is OSX only. We have to find both install/restore disk to compare the firmware/Apple Mac Rom to make DVD version boot OS9 as we have done before with FW800 machines.

There is also 2 more moderns eMacs.
A)The Radeon 9200 G4 1.25 called for its USB2 ports. It can be compared to MDDs with FW-800 I guess, with the 1.25 PowerPC 7447a
B)The 2005 Radeon 9600 G4 1.42 with PowerPC 7447a model able to Dual Layer

MacTron has said before than Radeon 9600 and OS9 do not match. I would like to hear more reports, but for sure I cant ask it here where users do not boot X to be safe of BTree errors.

2005 is really far from the pathetic episode of the "Death of OS9" joke from Steve Jobs... 2006 was the Intel change...

« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 10:41:21 PM by Protools5LEGuy »
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4


supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2014, 02:19:42 PM »
found this in an ad claiming that this came with toast 6
and its a DL burner over firewire..

has anyone confirmed being able to burn a DL dvd (larger then 4.x gb size)
under mac os 9 with toast 5.x?

i guess when it has this symbol in the pic
it means both + & - types are supported
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 02:56:51 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2014, 02:23:48 PM »
so apparently theres 2 different types of DL DVD

DVD+R DL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD%2BR_DL


and

DVD-R DL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-R_DL


and to do this it would most likely be DVD+R DL that would be compatbile and not DVD-R DL

before i had read on this page:
http://www.roxio.com/enu/support/toast/version_history6.html
the introduction of dvd dl recording was in 6.1
but this was just for DVD-R DL
i think DVD+R DL support might have come earlier then v6.1

ok here we go
v6.07 talks about :
Quote
Discs burned with the NEC 3100A, NEC 3500A, LG GSA-4210A, LDR-HA125FU2/M and Sony 700A currently only play back in PCs and set-top DVD players, but not in Macs. This is due to the fact that, at present, the Mac OS Finder does not recognize DVD+R DL as a valid disc type. The NEC2510A and TEAC drive set the disc type as DVD-ROM, which the Finder does accept. Apple is aware of this issue, and a future update to the Mac OS should recognize these discs correctly for playback.
so perhaps this interpretting this DVD-R DL in v6.1 as the first ability to record dvd dl is correct because
this paragraph makes me believe that apple chose to support the DVD-R DL standard over the DVD+R DL standard
also makes me think that finder of mac os 9 may not support either format at all!!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 02:59:38 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 02:33:51 PM »
http://www.roxio.com/enu/support/toast/version_history6.html
Quote
Version 6.0.7

Support fixes and error corrections for:

    8 GB doule layer data DVDs
    Double layer DVD music albums
    Double layer video DVDs
    Uncompressed Video_TS burning to double layer media
    Uncompressed double layer copying of unencrypted DVDs

Note: Double layer burning requires capable DVD recorder and double-layer media.

Setting the layer break is performed automatically for Toast authored DVDs. Any previously authored VIDEO_TS content will be scanned for a suitable non-seamless cell boundary that results in the most equal distribution of data across layers.

The disc capacity gauge near the red Record button offers a third toggle option of DVD DL, which calibrates the gauge for the increased capacity of double-layer media.

The disc capacity gauge near the red Record button offers a third toggle option of DVD DL, which calibrates the gauge for the increased capacity of double-layer media.


Burning has been verified to work with the following DL recorder mechanisms:

    NEC 2510A, 3100A, 3500A
    LG GSA-4120A
    Sony 700A
    Teac DV-W58E
    Logitec LDR-HA125FU2/M
    Pioneer DVD-RW DVR-108
    Lacie d2 series

Discs burned with the NEC 3100A, NEC 3500A, LG GSA-4210A, LDR-HA125FU2/M and Sony 700A currently only play back in PCs and set-top DVD players, but not in Macs. This is due to the fact that, at present, the Mac OS Finder does not recognize DVD+R DL as a valid disc type. The NEC2510A and TEAC drive set the disc type as DVD-ROM, which the Finder does accept. Apple is aware of this issue, and a future update to the Mac OS should recognize these discs correctly for playback.

so important they had to say it twice:D lol
or did these statements intend to display - + (one for each format type) this would explain why its there twice
but maybe somehow those characters were lost in formatting? if thats the case then maybe it was possible at this time to record a DVD+R DL on mac, but not play it back?? very strange

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2014, 02:41:55 PM »
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 09:31:08 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2014, 02:48:33 PM »
ok so it doesnt look like its in the cards for toast 5

time to look at some alternatives..
and i found one!!
on OWC

Quote
NTI Dragon Burn 4.5 for Mac OS X & Mac OS 9 CD/DVD (incl. Dual Layer) & Blu-ray Authoring software
NTI Dragon Burn 4.5 for Mac OS X & Mac OS 9 - CD/DVD (including Dual Layer) and Blu-ray Burning software for Data and Audio - OEM VERSION - Requires qualifying drive purchase!

Brand: NTI - NewTech Infosystems       OWC Item # OWCNTIDRAGON

the owc page lists mac os 9 but the nti dragon modern site does not...
time for more wayback machine;)

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/NTI%20-%20NewTech%20Infosystems/NTIDRAGON/
http://www.nticorp.com/dragon_burn.asp

http://www.digitalproducer.com/2003/12_dec/reviews/12_22/dlntidb122603.htm
http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Utilities/Dragon-Burn.shtml

could this be an error by owc? (ie: no mac os 9 compatibility?)
probably they meant 10.9

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2014, 03:43:34 PM »
Tomorrow I'll make a test of DL recording in Mac Os 9 ...
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 05:57:40 PM »
Tomorrow I'll make a test of DL recording in Mac Os 9 ...

great - lets get this found out once and for all

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2014, 06:42:22 AM »
Tomorrow I'll make a test of DL recording in Mac Os 9 ...

great - lets get this found out once and for all

DL recorded in simulation mode OK.
Toast 5.2.3 seems to be confused about dual layer DVD's because it only let me choose the CD-ROM 63x speed instead of the usual DVD-ROM speed of 4x, 8x, 16x etc...
Anyway,  CD-ROM 63x is similar to DVD 6x.

Now I'm going to try a real DL recording...
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Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM »
First test failed "the connection is not stable".
I'm going to test this just one more time...
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 06:58:56 AM »
 :'(
maybe try at the lowest speed ?

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2014, 07:08:02 AM »
Second test failed also "the connection is not stable".
I'm not going to test any longer, those DL DVDs are too expensive around here.
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 07:11:13 AM »
here is the press release for the first superdrive that supported dual layer dvds
http://support.apple.com/kb/ta23199

burning dual layer dvds with "iDVD"
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2937


Second test failed also "the connection is not stable".
I'm not going to test any longer, those DL DVDs are too expensive around here.

is it a DVD-R DL or DVD+R DL that you are trying with?
which dvd type?


Quote
The DVD-R standard was developed by Pioneer. It is used primarily by Apple and Pioneer. In addition, this format is supported by the DVD Forum, but is in no way an industry standard. The DVD+R format is supported by Philips, Dell, Sony, HP, and Microsoft.
from this quote it appears that apple chose DVD-R to properly support - i just checked my own dvd supply .. and mine are all DVD+R DL .. ooops:) thats what i get for shopping at a pc store;D

looks like we may be stuck with using normal DVD-R 4.5-4.7gb size which should work fine?

i think it depends on which brand your burner is.. + from which time period
it may work for both formats but one of the two may be "better supported"
ie: if u have sony or HP burner you want to use DVD+R for best results
if you have pioneer burner, use DVD-R for best results

too bad they didnt mention LG or mitsubishi in this article

« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 05:37:14 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2014, 07:28:05 AM »
heres a pic of a DVD-R DL


verbatim makes both - i used to use this brand religiously back in this time of 2002-2004 (but that was before DL)
i think this 4x DVD-R is the best kind for macs?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 12:50:10 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2014, 07:32:55 AM »
I'm using Verbatim DVD+R DL.
And yes, you are right, I should use DVD-R, but those are what i have around here, I even don't remember when I have purchased it.
The weird thing is that the simulation worked...
Perhaps I'll make another test someday with a DVD-R DL...
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2014, 07:50:02 AM »
i may be wrong but i think + is alot more common now
on my local shop website i cant even find any DVD-R DL
every single one is DVD+R DL

this is probably an oversight on this specific shops part maybe?
or perhaps i didnt scroll to the end of the search result..

but im wondering..
could DL burning be a reality under mac os 9?
if we use the right media.. in the right drive..?
im hoping this is they key!


ok my shop does have normal DVD-R at least
pioneer CD/DVD drive + DVD-R i hope this is a winning combo

here is some info from pioneer.. press releases
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Press-Room/Professional-Products?year=1999


press release below from : October 17, 2002


Pioneer Introduces Multiple Format DVD|CD+Writer
http://tinyurl.com/ob7s839
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 08:09:32 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2014, 08:31:03 AM »
I just find and try  a Memorex DVD+R DL... and another test failed. So DVD+R DL definitely seems to be a non go.
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2014, 08:35:03 AM »
yes that would be consistant with me finding this press release for toast 6.1 saying DVD+R DL burn has been "corrected"
but they make no mention of DVD-R DL so maybe this was working ok?

i have been trying to find a press release for the first 8.5gb Dual Layer dvd drive
http://www.gizmag.com/go/2733/

i found this article finally .. and it has no date  ;D
lol

ok here we go
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/201193-Dual-layer-8-5GB-DVD-R-DL-Disk-Launched
post date is 17th Feb 2005 12:41

"world first" dated feb 16th 2005
http://www.m-kagaku.co.jp/english/newsreleases/2005/20050216-1.html

ok so finally we know when this landed officially

pioneer has no press release at all regarding dual layer dvd
and not untill december 2005 they release info regarding Blue Ray
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Press-Room/Professional-Products/Pioneer+Launches+One+of+Industry%27s+First+PC-Based+Blu-ray+Disc+Drives
so it must be an oversight that they never released any info about dual layer.. even the december blueray press release makes no mention of dual layer DVD-R DL

Quote
The half height BDR-101A Blu-ray Disc/DVD writer will read BD-ROM/R/RE, DVD-ROM/DVD-R/DVD-RW and +R/+RW discs. It offers the following write speeds:

    BD-R/RE (2X)
    DVD-R/+R (8X)
    DVD-RW/+RW (4X)

Pioneer has been an innovator of optical disc technology since it brought LaserDisc, the precursor to DVD, to market in 1980. Pioneer went on to introduce the first DVD writer for computer use in 1997, the first DVD recorder as a VCR replacement in 1999, the first DVD/CD writer for home computer users in 2001 and surpassed 5 million sales of DVD writers in 2003. The company now leads the market with the introduction of this new Blu-ray Disc drive. Pioneer Corporation is one of the Blu-ray Disc Founders.

i guess they were more concerned with "coming out ahead" of mitsubishi ;D by being first to market with blu-ray then to update press release of dual layer "after" mitsubishi :)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 08:45:43 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2014, 08:48:02 AM »
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/faq/powermac-g5-superdrive-cdrw-dvd-dvdr-dual-layer-dvd-support.html


here we can see the first official "DL" capable superdrives launched with the powermac g5
2.0 DP (PCI)
2.3 DP (PCI-X)
2.7 DP (PCI-X)

so we see 4x was the first dual layer supported speed
later increased to 6x in second half of year 2005

4X Superdrive
Apple reports that this 4X DVD-R/CD-RW SuperDrive "
DVD : writes DVD-R discs at up to 4x speed, reads DVDs at up to 8x speed,
CD : writes CD-R discs at up to16x speed, writes CD-RW discs at up to 10x speed, [and] reads CDs at up to 32x speed."
It uses an Ultra ATA/100 bus.

8X "SuperDrive"
Apple reports that this 8X DVD-R/CD-RW SuperDrive "
DVD : writes DVD-R discs at up to 8x speed, reads DVDs at up to 10x speed,
CD : writes CD-R discs at up to 24x speed, writes CD-RW discs at up to 10x speed, [and] reads CDs at up to 32x speed."
It uses an Ultra ATA/100 bus.

4X DL "SuperDrive"
Apple reports that this "16X" DVD+R DL/DVDĀ±RW/CD-RW SuperDrive "
DVD: writes DVD-R discs at 16x speed, writes DVD+R DL discs at up to 4x speed, reads DVDs at up to 16x speed,
CD: writes CD-R and CD-RW discs at up to 24x speed and reads CDs at up to 32x speed."
It uses an Ultra ATA/100 bus.

6X DL "SuperDrive"
Apple reports that this "16X" DVD+R DL/DVDĀ±RW/CD-RW SuperDrive "
DVD: writes DVD-R discs at 16x speed, writes DVD+R DL discs at up to 6x speed, reads DVDs at up to 16x speed,
CD: writes CD-R and CD-RW discs at up to 24x speed, [and] reads CDs at up to 32x speed."
It uses an Ultra ATA/100 bus.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 09:01:17 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2014, 05:30:30 PM »
the highest level of any powermac g4
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.42_dp_mdd.html
the 1.42 DP MDD

if we take into account that it shipped with:
Quote
4X "SuperDrive" - Apple reported that the 4X DVD-R/CD-RW SuperDrive "writes DVDs at 4X, reads DVDs at 8X, writes CD-R at 16X, writes CD-RW at 8X, and reads CDs at 32X". By custom order, it also could be configured with a second optical drive. Both optical drives use a EIDE (ATA-3) bus.

able to write DVD-R at 4x - this is perhaps the best we can do?
but is the software responsible for the speed? or the drive? putting a more modern burner into a g4..
whats the highest write speed any of us has got using normal DVD-R or DVD+R? (non dual layer)


Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2014, 06:22:31 PM »
able to write DVD-R at 4x - this is perhaps the best we can do?
but is the software responsible for the speed? or the drive? putting a more modern burner into a g4..
whats the highest write speed any of us has got using normal DVD-R or DVD+R? (non dual layer)

I have wrote DVD-R at 16X speed in Mac Os 9 with Toast 5.2.3.

The DVD Driver (LG GH24NSB0) support up to 24X DVD write speed.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=958.msg8456#msg8456

May be If I find a 24X DVD disk... LOL
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2014, 07:03:08 PM »
I've tested the M-DISCs today. Toast 5.2.x wrote them without any problem.
I had to use "Toast CD Reader" instead of "Apple CD/DVD driver" to read them.

in the same way that you used this extension to surpass the old dvd write speed
i wonder if there exists an extension that can enable dvd-r DL burning?

Offline IIO

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2014, 07:54:58 PM »

but toast 5 indeed has sometimes weird speeds displayed, even in OSX.
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Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2014, 02:17:03 PM »
At six seconds to the success:



...so it seems possible, but not really reliable...
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2014, 03:21:05 PM »
from the toast history http://www.roxio.com/enu/support/toast/version_history6.html
Quote
Buffer Underrun Prevention option available for combination DVD+R/RW and -R/RW recorders
so suppoort for this was added in v6.03
i think this means that this is a problem specifically with "combination DVDĀ±R/RW recorders" that do both +R & -R
i read some things related to this when i was researching all of the above information to do with this being some sort of
failsafe protection for burning the - type or + type i can tremember which, and that its a function built into the drive itself
so its the software not supporting the mechanism of the drive itself...  Im pretty sure i read that this is to do with the +R type
of the DRIVE itself.... not the media... or that its triggered by the drive itself when using one type of media..
i will have to look again.. but i think that if u were to use a drive that only supports -R burning on -R media
that this might be able to be avoided


supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2014, 03:24:14 PM »
from the toast history for v5.x
http://www.roxio.com/enu/support/toast/software_updatesv5.html

It looks like they fixed this problem for 5.x!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote
Toast 5.2.3 Titanium enables the Buffer Underrun Prevention option for combination DVD+R/RW and DVD-R/RW recorders when using -R/RW media. Buffer Underrun Prevention is not an option when using +R/RW media, since the recorder uses the built-in error prevention that is part of the +R/RW specification.

*Optional: This updater is intended to address buffer underrun prevention problems with certain DVD recorders and is not cumulative with the Toast 5.2.1 updater. Roxio recommends that Toast 5.2.1 be applied prior to this update. Please scroll down for information regarding Toast 5.2.1.

again it makes direct reference to this only affecting "combination" recorders... so my thinking is that if using a DVD-R/RW that does not support DVD+R/RW then this might be able to be avoided.\
"certain dvd recorders"

it also mentions that the updates have to be applied in sequence.. and that the latest update does not contain the previous updates!!!!!!!!! so perhaps this could be the key to unlock the solution? maybe this is an oversight by whoever packaged the toast version that we have.. and only included the 5.23 or 5.22 update.. as noted: ***Roxio recommends that Toast 5.2.1 be applied prior to this update***
but of course the download links for the updates of 5.x do not work.. i think i saw them working on the japanese version of the site !!!!! i will search.

what is needed is to install the basic toast 5.0 + install each update one after the other.. to ensure 100% that the right patches have been applied
we must gather all the updates in an attempt to solve this problem


drive compatibility info: says v5.1+ should support *ALL IDE cd/dvd* in this image
http://web.archive.org/web/20040404091202/http://www.roxio.com/en/support/roxio_support/toast/toast_rec.html
so maybe proper install of toast 5 updates require 9.1 or 9.2 or 9.2.2

supported cd recorders:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021201111637/http://www.roxio.com/en/jhtml/extranet/driveid/html/A.html

different updates:
5.0 -> 5.02
New Toast 5.2.1 Updater available! (http://web.archive.org/web/20031108030251/http://www.roxio.com/en/support/toast/)

^^^^ this 5.2.1 updater is whats needed to fix buffer underrun... this ****update must be applied before 5.2.3 update****
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 03:49:02 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2014, 03:56:58 PM »
ok i think its a total of 3 seperate updates

Quote
Update Toast 5.2.1 Titanium or later to 5.2.3
(compatible with Mac OS 9.1 and higher, including Mac OS X v10.3 )
Toast 5.2.3 Titanium enables the Buffer Underrun Prevention option for combination DVD+R/RW and DVD-R/RW recorders when using -R/RW media. Buffer Underrun Prevention is not an option when using +R/RW media, since the recorder uses the built-in error prevention that is part of the +R/RW specification.
*Optional: This updater is intended to address buffer underrun prevention problems with certain DVD recorders and is not cumulative with the Toast 5.2.1 updater. Roxio recommends that Toast 5.2.1 be applied prior to this update. Please scroll down for information regarding Toast 5.2.1.
Download: http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/5745/toast-5-titanium-updater

Quote
Update Toast 5.0 Titanium or later to 5.2.1
(compatible with Mac OS 9.1 and higher, including Mac OS 10.3 )
The improvements to Toast 5.2.1 Titanium include, but are not limited to: added CDDB2 submit feature, fixed Toast online help formatting issues with Jaguar help system, improved compatibility of VideoCD export with iMovie 3, improved 4x recording performance with Pioneer DVD-R, fixed AppleScript error during transfers from iView, Panic, CD SpinDoctor to Toast.
Download: LINK NEEDED

Quote
Update Toast 5.0 Titanium and later to version 5.0.2
(Software was purchased separately from a recorder.)
Adds Buffer Underrun Prevention for DVD-R drives, support for DVD-R media speed detection, better responsiveness when burning to built-in ATAPI/IDE recorders, improved compatibility with Apple's iTunes and Disc Burner, Apple Packet Media Access compatibility, support for new CD and DVD recorders, improved support for the Apple SuperDrive, the Pioneer DVR-A03, and the Yamaha 2100E, and Disc-to-Disc copy improvements.

so updates need to be run sequentially i think.. from lowest to highest, otherwise files will not be patched


supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2014, 04:15:18 PM »
ok i found a bunch of them.. but still 5.x->5.2.1 update missing **not to be mistaken with the 5.2.1-5.2.3 update



http://www.ephotozine.com/article/roxio-announces-downloadable-versions-of-toast-titanium-and-jam-1337

Quote
Roxio the Digital Media Company, provider of the best selling digital media software in the world, announced today that Toast Titanium and Jam are now available for purchase as downloadable versions from the Roxio online store at www.roxio.de The company also announces that an update for existing Toast 5.x Titanium customers is available here.

What's New in Toast 5.2.1
The latest Toast Titanium 5.2.1* update has many improvements and fixes including:

    a new CDDB2 submit feature
    improved VideoCD export compatibility with iMovie 3
    improved 4x recording performance with Pioneer DVD-R drives
    fixed AppleScript error during transfers from iView, Panic, and CD SpinDoctor to Toast
    fixed Toast online help formatting issues with Jaguar help system

Toast Titanium 5.2.1 includes all the new features introduced with version 5.2, including:

    Mac OS 10.2 Support: Compatibility with Jaguar!
    Support for 52x recorders, enabling users to get the most out of their hardware with Toast.
    CD-Text Support: Toast 5.2 writes CD-Text information for album name and track information to recorded audio discs, if the recorder supports burning CD-Text. This information is viewable in CD audio players that display CD-Text.
    Enhanced VideoCD QuickTime Codec: The Toast VideoCD codec has been enhanced to support multiple G4 processors, speeding the encoding process. It also offers more accurate preservation of color and contrast.
    Enhanced Quartz text rendering for improved interface usability.

System requirements are Mac OS 9.1 or later, or Mac OS X version 10.1.2 or later. Please note that the updates will NOT install on a machine where Toast 5 Titanium is not present.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 04:27:39 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2014, 04:26:04 PM »
reviewing the notes on the macintoshgarden page http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/toast-5-titanium
at the very bottom, bertyboy claims that:

-up to v5.0.2 works with "apple disc burning extension" enabled, versions after that need this extension turned off to work properly
-v5.1.3 -> v5.2.3 was for osx support on jaguar 10.2.x ONLY! (not sure if this is true i think roxio would have made this point very clear if so)
-mac os 9 only support up to v5.1.2 officially
i dont think that is true because of the documentation for the updaters claim compatibility with 9.1+
maybe hes getting confused between 9.0 compatibility & 9.1+ compatibility

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2014, 04:58:23 PM »
This is going really weird...
Finally Toast 5.2.3 wrote a DL DVD on Mac Os 9, But I couldn't read it by no means, but in Mac Os X :(



While I could read DL DVD on Mac Os 9 written in Mac os X or Linux ...
May be I need a rest...
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2014, 05:16:21 PM »
maybe what bertyboy said is true.. that version 5.12 is the version for mac os 9
and that these versions past 5.12 write the filesystem in a way that is for mac os x?

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2014, 05:23:30 PM »
i think ive found the 5.2.1 updater on this page.. around 20mb
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.roxio.jp%2Fsupport%2Fdownload%2Ftoast%2Fmac_osx.html&edit-text=&act=url
http://softwareupdates.roxio.com/gm/Products/en/Toast/Titanium/v5/RToast_Ti_Updater_521.hqx


examining this update, (and its url "toast/mac_osx.html") it appears to be packaged in a way that looks like it is indeed for X! but maybe not "X only"
i think bertyboy may be correct.. that versions above 5.1.2 are for 9/X dual booting systems
in the way that the quicksilver originally shipped with both os... 
it may require having both 9+X present to get a proper installation!!!!!!!!!
i reccommend doing a full restore of a quicksilver or mdd and trying..

this must be similar to how this "ASR for MacOSX v1.1" was for 9 aswell as X..
*the 5.2.1 updater requires carbonlib

maybe the 5.1.2 update contains updates for os9 with the same corrections + fixes that the 5.2.1 upsate contains for x


« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 07:43:03 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2014, 05:40:34 PM »
ive combined all the files i could find from all the sources i could find and its 177mb and im uploading it now

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2014, 05:51:57 PM »

re: "roxio toast 5.01 installer"
the toast 5.01 installer file size is very small.
i think we need to find an original 5.0 disc image or installer in order to patch up from 5.0
this 5.01 installer in the package ive created seems to only be an updater for the extensions + patch

ok nevermind maybe it is the real installer.. it is only 2.7mb which is what made me say this
if anyone has the 5.0 original disc image please post!!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 06:04:19 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2014, 05:57:48 PM »
here is my install procedure,

install 5.01 installer.. + reboot
tried to install 5.01 updater it says 'no eligible 5.0 installs found'  prob because its the same version that i installed
install 5.02 updater.. it works.. reboot
tried to install 5.1 update **requires mac os 9.1** (im on 9.02 on this mac) so there i have to update to 9.1 to continue..
and i have to ASR my disk before i continue.. ;)

since the 5.1 updates require os9.1
probably the 5.2.x updates will require os9.2
its a good explanation of the number scheme for the updates
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 06:34:43 PM by chrisNova777 »

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2014, 06:03:52 PM »
To Chris: this is not a Toast version problem. And even though only 5.2.1 and 5.2.3 can record DL media, none of both versions know what a DL DVD really is. They record to it as a unknown 8GB size CD. The main work is done in the DVD writer.
The best and the only result until now was achieved in a Pioneer 110D.
And Yes, after 5.02 Toast is a carbon application that can run in Mac Os 9 and in Mac Os X...
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2014, 06:08:17 PM »
regardless of DL vs normal dvd,
the updates explicitly mention this buffer underrun problem being fixed..
and the version history mentions that the 5.2.3 update does not contain the fixes from the updates which came before
and that they must be applied BEFORE 5.2.3

this mentality of "The last update" having "All updates combined" is a methodology implemented by apple with mac os updates
many other software companies do not create these "all encompassing" updates and require
EACH UPDATE BE APPLIED IN ORDER to properly patch the application with *all fixes*

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2014, 06:17:38 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_underrun#CD_and_DVD_recording_issues

Quote
General causes and solutions

The term should not be confused with buffer overflow, a condition where a portion of memory being used as a buffer has a fixed size but is filled with more than that amount of data. Whereas buffer overflows are usually the result of programming errors, and thus preventable, buffer underruns are often the result of transitory issues involving the connection which is being buffered: either a connection between two processes, with others competing for CPU time, or a physical link, with devices competing for bandwidth.

The simplest guard against such problems is to increase the size of the buffer—if an incoming data stream needs to be read at 1 bit per second, a buffer of 10 bits would allow the connection to be blocked for up to 10 seconds before failing, whereas one of 60 bits would allow a blockage of up to a minute. However, this requires more memory to be available to the process or device, which can be expensive. It assumes that the buffer starts full—requiring a potentially significant pause before the reading process begins—and that it will always remain full unless the connection is currently blocked. If the data does not, on average, arrive faster than it is needed, any blockages on the connection will be cumulative; "dropping" one bit every minute on a hypothetical connection with a 60-bit buffer would lead to a buffer underrun if the connection remained active for an hour. In real-time applications, a large buffer size also increases the latency between input and output, which is undesirable in low-latency applications such as video conferencing.
CD and DVD recording issues

Buffer underruns can cause serious problems during CD/DVD burning, because once the writing is started, it cannot stop and resume flawlessly; thus the pause needed by the underrun can cause the data on the disc to become invalid. Since the buffer is generally being filled from a relatively slow source, such as a hard disk or another CD/DVD, a heavy CPU or memory load from other concurrent tasks can easily exhaust the capacity of a small buffer. Therefore, a technique called buffer underrun protection was implemented by various individual CD/DVD writer vendors, under various trademarks, such as Plextor BurnProof, Nero UltraBuffer, Yamaha SafeBurn, JustLink, and Seamless Link. With this technique, the laser is indeed able to stop writing for any amount of time and resume when the buffer is full again. The gap between successive writes is extremely small.

Another way to protect against the problem, when using rewritable media (CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM), is to use the UDF file system, which organizes data in smaller "packets", referenced by a single, updated address table, which can therefore be written in shorter bursts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format


Quote
History
The Optical Storage Technology Association standardized the UDF file system to form a common file system for all optical media: both for read-only media and for re-writable optical media. When first standardized, the UDF file system aimed to replace ISO 9660, allowing support for both read-only and writable media. After the release of the first version of UDF, the DVD Consortium adopted it as the official file system for DVD-Video and DVD-Audio.[6]

maybe it would be best to use a RW that can be erased + tried again to solve this problem:
Quote
Rewriteable media such as DVD-RW and CD-RW have fewer limitations than DVD-R and CD-R media. Sectors can be rewritten at random (though in packets at a time). These media can be erased entirely at any time, making the disc blank again, ready for writing a new UDF or other file system (e.g., ISO 9660 or CD Audio) to it. However, sectors of -RW media may "wear out" after a while, meaning that their data becomes unreliable, through having been rewritten too often (typically after a few hundred rewrites, with CD-RW).

http://forums.support.roxio.com/topic/50075-udf-format-versions-in-toast-and-its-history/
Quote
Toast has implemented the UDF standard since many years now (starting from perhaps the toast 4.11 versions when consumer affordable DVDs came into use)
can u check this disk you burned is in UDF format already?

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2014, 06:32:00 PM »
To Chris: this is not a Toast version problem. And even though only 5.2.1 and 5.2.3 can record DL media, none of both versions know what a DL DVD really is. They record to it as a unknown 8GB size CD. The main work is done in the DVD writer.
The best and the only result until now was achieved in a Pioneer 110D.
And Yes, after 5.02 Toast is a carbon application that can run in Mac Os 9 and in Mac Os X...


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Computer/Computer+Drives/DVR-110D

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2014, 06:51:33 PM »
ok now i updated my os to 9.1 so i could continue patching up toast 5..

upon continuing to update my toast version up from the original 5.01 install
i did notice the curious behaviour that toast created a new executable and left the 5.12 one in place
and created 5.13 (so this result differs from the other updates coming before the 5.12->5.13 update
which is somewhat in like with what "bertyboy" from macintoshgarden has claimed.. the updates prior to this
all updated the same executable... )
when i ran the 5.14 updater.. its asked me to select which to update.. 5.12 or 5.13..
naturally 5.14 comes after 5.13 so i selected 5.13..
now its also added a 5.14 executable to my toast 5 directory..
so i have seperate copies of 5.12, 5.13, + 5.14 executables now
and they all have been given the ".app" file extension.. i think he is right
5.13 and above is really for mac os x jaguar + panther but still 'os9 compatible'

actually on second thought i think its fine to use thes versions on os9..
its just changed the format because they introduced cross-compatibility between the two os
as of this version thats all.

also. 5.2.1 update installed fine on mac os 9.1 and does not require 9.2+

now i just need to download this 5.2.1-> 5.2.3 update from macupdate site
and then i can do a file comparison between the file that i patched up
and the 5.2.3 installer..

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2014, 06:53:13 PM »
To Chris: My Toast version was updated correctly and I know very well what a Buffer Underrun is...
Forget all you can read out there, We are using Mac Os 9.x and Toast 5.x in some way far away that it was originally intended to be used.
We are in unexplored ground. LOL

About UDF: in short:UDF is a shit. IMHO.
About RW : DVD DL RW exist?

and BTW: My Pioneer 110D is white :)
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2014, 07:22:12 PM »
my drive is an LG (also white  8) )
i assume if u go to "recorder info" in toast.. your drive will say the same thing? im guessing..

Quote
model:
where:
firmware:
Cache size: 2MB
Special Features: buffer underrun prevention

when burning.. did u press the big record button?
or did u use file menu pulldown ->"write to dvd-ram"
because i think the red record button is for cds only in this version of toast..
and u must specify that you are using a dvd by using this pulldown from the file menu

i just tried to put my leopard DVD (Which is DL) and toast 5 says there is no disc in the drive
even tho obviously there is.... hmm
maybe this is because i have to disable now, the apple cd extension for reading discs?
because i updated past toast 5.02...

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2014, 07:55:20 PM »
my drive just successfully read my snow leopard dual layer disc with mac os 9 os..
except..
it only shows a partition for WINDOWS!
it comes up saying "Windows support"
and some files + directories related to bootcamp
but its reading these files + directories from the Dual Layer DVD
so it must be related to *Filesystem*
???????????

Whatever filesystem its using to write the mac portion of the snow leopard disc doesnt mount
the reason it can read the windows files partition on the snow leopard dual layer disc is because its in iso9660 format
and (hopefully im wrong) because its on the first layer of the dvd?


supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2014, 08:03:52 PM »
maybe this UDF + ISO9660 compatible filesystems need to be explored

examining the UDF chart on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format
shows mac os 9 compatible with UDF v1.02 + v1.50 and looking further to the "Write" column it says "YES" meaning mac os 9 can write in UDF to a dvd
but it gives no information on how this would be accomplished?????

Quote
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/allcam/cdformat.html#3
ISO vs. UDF
ISO 9660 have been used as the main CD format for many years now. Most of the CD nowsdays still use this format, the benefit of this format is that it is readable by all CD drive or CD player, and can be shared between PC and MAC.

Universal Disk Format (UDF) is a newer file system for CD and DVDdeveloped and managed by the Optical Storage Technology Association as the successor to the ISO 9660 standard. UDF overcomes limitations of ISO 9660 and redirectors such as CDFS. UDF is used to ensure compatibility across platforms, as well as among various CD and DVD applications. UDF is required for DVDs, and is used by DVD to contain MPEG audio/video streams, UDF is also used by CD-R and CD-RW in a process called packet writing that makes CD writing more efficient in terms of the time and disk space required.

Different revisions of UDF
UDF have many different revisions, from revision 1.0, 1.02, 1.5, 2.0, to 2.01, and revision 1.02 is specified for use by DVD drives, difference between these revisions are available from OSTA website.

UDF 1.02 is the 'most' compatible file system.
When you choose to create a DVD to play video and choose UDF/ISO, UDF 1.02 will be used ( by the burning software ) to ensure best compatibility.
But if you choose DVD-Video mode when you burn a DVD, the default format is UDF 1.5 format, not 1.02, which might cause it not readable by other DVD drives and DVD players.
offtopic: under mac os x 10.4 the graph shows UDF version 2.50 & 2.60 is only supported via some toast 9+ HD support

it could be that simply going to file menu pulldown inside toast 5 and selecting "Write DVD-RAM" makes it write the disc as "ISO/UDF"????
this is my guess.
from what i have read earlier + quoted above.. apparently writing the data to the disc in this filesystem greatly reduces the risk for buffer underrun error to occur.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 08:31:26 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2014, 08:33:44 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-RAM
Quote
A DVD-RAM disc can be identified by many small rectangles distributed on the surface of the data carrier
Quote
DVD-RAM (DVDā€“Random Access Memory) is a disc specification presented in 1996 by the DVD Forum, which specifies rewritable DVD-RAM media and the appropriate DVD writers. DVD-RAM media have been used in computers as well as camcorders and personal video recorders since 1998.

so this is a very old specific type of media disc

http://www.videomaker.com/article/9716-dvr-r-dvdr-dvd-ram-whats-the-difference
Quote
DVD-RAM

DVD-RAM was the first recordable and rewritable standard to hit the market and was defined by the DVD Forum (dvdforum.org), which is composed of over 220 companies. DVD-RAM discs can hold 4.7GB per side (for a total of 9.4GB on a dual-sided disc), although other sizes and capacities are available. As a rewritable format for data on a computer, DVD-RAM discs are great. Some come in a plastic cartridge or housing that makes them physically incompatible with many devices, but DVD-RAM discs are not generally compatible with living room DVD players anyhow. You will find standalone living room DVD burners using the DVD-RAM format, and even some camcorders, but you should not consider DVD-RAM to be a general-purpose distribution format for video.
(i dont think this is the same as dual layer.. does this mean discs where u actually have data on both sides of the disc.. top + bottom.. hence the reference to it being contained in plastic container to protect each side from any physical contact

Quote
Compatibility
A DVD-RAM Type 2

Many operating systems like Mac OS (from Mac OS 8.6 up), Linux and Microsoft Windows XP can use DVD-RAM directly, while earlier versions of Windows require separate device drivers or the program InCD.

Windows XP Home and Professional can only write directly to FAT32 formatted DVD-RAM discs. For UDF formatted discs, which are considered faster,[by whom?] a third-party UDF file system driver capable of writing or software such as InCD or DLA are required. Windows Vista and later can natively access and write to both FAT32 and UDF formatted DVD-RAM discs using mastered burning method or packet writing. Even though it is possible to use any file system one likes, very few perform well on DVD-RAM. This is because some file systems frequently overwrite data on the disc and the table of contents is contained at the start of the disc. It should also be noted that Windows Vista (and later) implement the CPRM data protection and thus discs formatted under Windows XP (or earlier) have compatibility issues with Vista onwards (and vice versa).

Mac OS up to 9.2 (Mac OS Classic) can read and write HFS, HFS+, FAT, and UDF formatted DVD-RAM discs directly. Mac OS X no longer supports formatting and writing UDF-format DVD-RAM, but supports formatting and writing DVD-RAM in HFS+ format. (HFS and UFS should also be supported on older versions of Mac OS X that retain support for these file systems.)[1][2]

Many DVD standalone players and recorders do not work with DVD-RAM. However, within "RAMPRG" (the DVD-RAM Promotion Group) there are a number of well-known manufacturers of standalone players, recorders, and camcorders that can use DVD-RAM. Panasonic, for instance, has a range of players and recorders which make full use of the advantages of DVD-RAM.

The newest DVD-RAM Specification, DVD-RAM2 (also called RAM2), is not compatible with DVD drives that do not specifically allow reading DVD-RAM2 discs.[3]

Some high end products such as IBM System p frames require DVD-RAM instead of DVD-RW.[4]
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 11:22:18 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2014, 08:50:29 PM »
i was trying to do a 6gb disc, but selecting "write to DVD-RAM" doesnt work
it refuses to recognize my disc as a DVD-RAM disc..
just keeps saying "insert a DVD-RAM disc + try again"  :'(
so to use this "write to DVD-RAM" u really have to have a real actual "DVD-RAM" type disc
or maybe this drive doesnt support DL burning at all. i am going to replace with a sony DL burner now + try again

ok im attempting a 6gb disc.. on Memorex DVD+R DL discs
using a SONY DVD RW DRU-810A drive..


this drive doesnt support DVD-RAM at all..

i've set the speed to 12x and there was a check box for buffer underrun prevention which i selected
the timer is counting down from 35min to complete.. fingers crossed!

uh oh
ive just checked the documentation of the drive
Quote
Disc manufacturers and discs certified for operation with the DVD/CD rewritable drive DRU-810A, DRX-810UL, and
DRX-810ULT are:
(As of 2005/10/11)
DVD+R DL (Double Layer)
● Verbatim/Mitsubishi Chemical Co., Ltd. Disc labeled for use at 2.4x speed * 4x and 8x write speed setting is also available.
looks like i should have picked 4x or 8x speed setting??

yep just got a "medium error"
well i guess thats one for the bin ;D trying again at 4x
ok i picked 2x speed... i dont care if it takes 3 hrs:D lol as long as it works
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 12:03:21 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2014, 09:51:23 PM »
the burn is still going with 15min left to complete..!! farther then last time.. 
praying that it completes!!!!  :o

annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd... MEDIUM ERROR!  >:( >:( >:( >:(
not sure if i feel like ruining all my DL discs tonight LOL
*sigh* oh well
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 10:04:07 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2014, 10:58:42 PM »
perhaps i should try again without "buffer underrun prevention" enabled


Perhaps the right media is whats needed..
http://www.canadacomputers.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=dvd-ram&x=0&y=0

here we see single sided DVD-RAM, single sided DVD-RAM in cartridge 4 format and finally double sided 9.4GB DVD-RAM media

heres some info on using the original dvd-ram drives (which i thought didnt work to burn dvds.. but apparently they only work with DVD-RAM media and not DVD-R or DVD+R)
the article does make reference to double sided DVD-RAMs at the end!!!!

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA44310
Quote
Starting Up From DVD-RAM Media

Beginning with Mac OS 9.0.4, Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics and Gigabit Ethernet) computers can use DVD-RAM media as a startup disk. Other computers, which may have a DVD-RAM drive, including the Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White) and the Power Mac G4 (PCI Graphics) cannot use DVD-RAM discs as a startup disk.

Follow these instructions to start up from a DVD-RAM disc:
Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics)
    1. Use Drive Setup 1.9.2 or later to format the DVD-RAM media.
    2. Install Mac OS 9 and the Mac OS 9.0.4 Update on the DVD-RAM disc. If your computer is running Mac OS 9.0.4 or later, you may drag copy that System Folder to the DVD-RAM media.
Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)
    1. Use Drive Setup 2.0.1 or later to format the DVD-RAM media.
    2. Install Mac OS from the Restore or Install CD that came with your computer onto the DVD-RAM disc, or drag copy the active System Folder from your hard disk.

The DVD-RAM disc can now be used to start up a Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics) computer after either:
- using the Startup Disk control panel to select the DVD-RAM disc as the startup disk.
- using the Startup Manager by holding down the Option key at system startup time
- pressing and holding down the C key at system startup time

CD-R discs
-DVD-RAM drives can read CD-R and CD-RW discs, but cannot record them.

DVD-ROM Drives
-Most Generation 3 (or higher) DVD-ROM drives can read Type 2 DVD-RAM discs if they are removed from their cartridge.
(See the DVD-RAM disc's packaging for instructions on how to remove the disc from its cartridge.)
-DVD-ROM drives use only one side of a DVD-RAM disc. If you are using a double-sided DVD-RAM disc, you must eject the disc and flip it over to use the other side.
this last line is talking about using a DVD-RAM disc **in a DVD-ROM type reader/burner**
thought it doesnt say outright that using a dvd-ram media in a dvd-ram drive would support using *double sided dvd-ram*...
this last line, makes me think that it must! beacuse why else would they say this info about DVD-ROM vs DVD-RAM... 
so if this is true. way back then.. mac os 9 supported DVD-RAM double sided.. which is 9GB PER DISC!!!!!!

« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 03:38:02 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2014, 11:29:14 PM »
and now, a brief look back on the first dvd-ram drives.. which shipped with the:
Power Macintosh G3 and G4: About the DVD-RAM Drive
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3072
This article provides description and usage information for the Apple DVD-RAM Drive for the Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White)and Power Mac G4.

Quote
Using the DVD-RAM Drive
Using DVD-RAM discs
DVD-RAM discs come in a cartridge. In some cases, you can remove the disc from the cartridge (and use it in a DVD-ROM drive, for example). In other cases, you cannot remove the disc and therefore must use it in the cartridge with a DVD-RAM drive.
If you need to remove a 2.6 MB DVD-RAM disc from the cartridge, see the documentation that came with the disc for information.
Important: Don't touch the surface of the disc. If you do, you may get data errors or the drive may not be able to read information on the disc.
Note: You can only write to a DVD-RAM disc that is in a cartridge.

Quote
Types of CD and DVD Disc Modes Supported
The DVD-RAM drive reads and writes the following DVD discs in cartridge:
    Single-sided 2.6 gigabyte (GB) DVD-RAM Type 1 cartridge (disc not removable) and Type 2 cartridge (disc removable)
    Double-sided 5.2 GB DVD-RAM Type 1 cartridge (disc not removable)
    Single-sided 4.7 GB DVD-RAM Type 1 and Type 2 cartridge (Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) only)
    Double-sided 9.4 GB DVD-RAM Type 1 and Type 2 cartridge (Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) only)


photo of a type 2 DVD-RAM single sided disc (4.7gb per side)

photo of a type 2 DVD-RAM double sided disc (4.7gb per side =9.4gb)

Quote
Data capacity
DVD-RAM type 1
2.6 GB, single-sided, single-layer
5.2 GB, double-sided, single-layer

http://www.verbatim-europe.co.uk/en_1/product_dvd-ram-3x_4_0_76.html
Quote
DVD-RAM is a rewritable disc providing 4.7GB capacity (9.4GB for Double Sided). Compliant with the DVD-Forum specifications. DVD-RAM is designed for data intensive, high performance applications. Data storage on DVD-RAM can be accessed in the same manner as a hard drive, with drag and drop capabilities, and can be overwritten 100,000 times.(and lasting up to 30 years)

so these strange dvd drives on the powermac g3..

i never understood them properly i guess
they accepted using these double sided cartridge type 1 DVD-RAM.... up to 5.2gb for type 1 (on powermac g3/g4 /w DVD-RAM drive)
and up to 9.4gb for type 2 (only on the gigabit/mystic g4 /w DVD-RAM drive)
i remember back 10 years ago i would always try to burn on these and always get errors.. **probably because i was using the wrong type of dvd** and didnt know
i have thrown these in the garbage thinking they couldnt burn anything.. because they cant burn the normal cds or dvds, only read.. + write DVD-RAM.. but wow.. no wonder apple chose this for the powermac g3 B&W.... and the standard was never really adopted globally.. but they saw it as the superior choice.. unbelievable

Quote
Disc speed
    DVD-RAM: 1x Zone constant linear velocity (ZCLV)
also it only supports 1x speed on this original dvd-ram drive featured in b&w g3/sawtooth g4
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 12:47:44 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2014, 12:10:03 AM »
http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/toast-write-dvd-ram-disk/
Quote
How can I use Toast to write to a DVD-RAM disk?
First it is important to realize that only Apple Brand DVD-RAM drives are supported. Unless your DVD-RAM drive came in your Mac, it is likely that Toast will not be able to see it.
To write to the DVD-RAM drive, use the DVD format and add the files you want to the layout.
Go to the file menu and choose the Write to DVD-RAM option.

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/erase-dvd-ram-disks-toast/
Quote
How do I erase DVD-RAM disks with Toast?
This information applies to Toast Titanium 5.X on the following Operating System(s): Mac OS 8.6,Mac OS 9.X, Mac OS 10.X
To erase an entire DVD-RAM disc that has been recorded by Toast, abort a write to DVD-RAM, then reinsert the disc after quitting Toast and the Mac OS Finder will offer to initialize the entire disc.

we know toast 5 supports DVD-RAM - this is a fact.
maybe you have to use Drive setup to initialize the filesystem on the disc first when using DVD-RAM before writing to the disc with toast?
i guess thats why the cd/dvd shows up in drive setup..

http://www.maxellcanada.com/dvd_tech/dvd-ram_wp.htm
Quote
What is DVD-RAM?
DVD-RAM is a high-performance, rewritable/recordable, optical disc that enables information to be read, written, erased and re-written again. It acts similar to a floppy disc, where programs can be run from it, data can be stored, or files can be written and deleted. Current DVD-RAM capacity is 4.7GB for a single sided disc and 9.4GB for a double-sided disc. First generation capacity was 2.6GB for a single sided disc and 5.2GB for a double-sided disc. DVD-RAM drives feature backward read compatibility with all CD formats and enhanced durability (100,000 re-write cycles and a 30 + year life span). Double-sided RAM discs can hold more than 14 times that of a standard CD-R. DVD-RAM is the format of choice for such manufacturers as Hitachi, Panasonic and Toshiba.

What are the different types of DVD-RAM?
There are two types of DVD-RAM cartridges: Type 1 is double sided and Type 2 is single sided. Type 2 cartridges can be removed from their cartridges and Type 1 discs are sealed in the cartridge and are not removable. Single sided DVD-RAM discs, when removed from their cartridge, can be read in current DVD-RAM consumer players and computer DVD ROM drives. Double-sided discs are not removable from their cartridges and can only be played back or written in cartridge compatible drives and players.

How does DVD-RAM work?
DVD-RAM is different than DVD-R in that it uses re-writable phase change material rather than the write-once organic dye material that comprises a DVD-R and a CD-R. When writing, a laser heats the phase change material in the disc to about 900-1300F, changing its reflective properties from shiny to dull. If the disc needs to be erased, a laser heats the disc again to about 400F to return the disc to its original shiny state. A laser of lesser power is used to read the written marks. These shiny and dull marks represent data to a computer. They are then interpreted by the computer and then translated into usable information. Second Generation 4.7GB (single sided) and 9.4 (double sided) DVD-RAM achieve their higher capacities by decreasing track width and laser spot size.

What are the differences between DVD-RAM and the other rewritable formats?
First, DVD-RAM media is random access like a hard disk. This enables DVD-RAM to retrieve data faster then the other available formats (current DVD-RAM transfer rate is 22.16Mbps). Secondly, DVD-RAM is more robust than it's competition. It is rated at 100,000 rewrites, while DVD RW and DVD+RW specify approximatly1000 rewrites. DVD-RAM has 9 internal recording surfaces as compared to 3 internal recording surfaces for DVD-RW and DVD+RW. DVD-RAM's metal alloy was created for computer use and therefore affords RAM a far greater number of rewrites. RAM also boasts a sophisticated ECC error correction scheme that makes it ideal for data applications.

What applications is DVD-RAM best suited for?
DVD-RAM's durability and high number of rewrites make it the perfect solution for multifunction jukeboxes providing high capacity, on line storage for document imaging and full motion video. Because of DVD-RAM's speed and error correction technology, these discs are also suited for backup and archiving. DVD-RAM also provides videographers with a solution for storing DV and analog productions instead of hard disc or videotape. By using removable DVD-RAM for mastering and archiving instead of space limited hard drives or poor quality VHS tape, users will achieve the highest quality possible and gain added flexibility. RAM is also well suited for the medical or legal industries. DVD-RAM is currently being utilized in hospitals and radiology labs to store X-rays, CAT scans and other large image files. This provides medical professionals with a reliable, low-cost means of storing test results digitally so they can be easily accessed and shared with others.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/dvd-ram
Quote
DVD-RAM - Definition
A rewritable DVD disc endorsed by the DVD Forum. Using phase change technology, DVD-RAMs are like removable hard disks, and the media can be rewritten 100,000 times compared to 1,000 times for DVD-RW and DVD+RW. The first DVD-RAM drives with a capacity of 2.6GB (single sided) or 5.2GB (double sided) became available in the spring of 1998. DVD-RAM Version 2 discs with 4.7GB arrived in late 1999, and double-sided 9.4GB discs in 2000. DVD-RAM drives typically read DVD-Video, DVD-ROM and all types of CD media. See DVD, DVD storage capacities, DVD+RW, DVD-RW and optical disc.

i feel sick to my stomach, ive thrown out a bunch of these drives.. thinking they were shit because they dont burn CD-R or DVD+R... but all along i should have been using DVD-RAM disc with those strange tray loading.. and they looked strange like that because they hold double sided discs.. unbelievable
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 03:11:02 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2014, 01:59:13 AM »
Just for the record:

I've used the following CD/DVD recorders:

- Pioneer 110D
- Samsung SH-S222
- LG GH24NSB0
- LITE-ON SHW-1635S

With Verbatim and Memorex DVD 16X DL media.

The write software was Toast 5.2.3

The best result I achieve was using Pioneer 110D and Verbatim media. But the most common error in this escenario was a finishing error:



The reading software tested (CD/DVD drivers) was:
- Apple CD/DVD Driver.
- Toast CD reader.
- Intech CD/DVD speed tools.

None of this can read the recorded disk but Mac Os x. Even Though Toast CD reader usually reads DL media.

After those test, my opinion is that DL can be achieved in Mac os 9 with the right combination of DVD Writer and DVD Media and Toast 5.2.x ... but it is not really reliable...

May be we have to forget this and to begin to consider BluRay in Mac Os 9. LOL
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 02:14:32 AM by MacTron »
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2014, 02:11:52 AM »
my disc is also readable in osx on 10.4.1 -- the one that "failed" so i think u are right that its the "lead out" finishing that is screwing up
i think maybe its because toast 5 was programmed to record to DVD-RAM not DVD+R or DVD-R ****wrong.. below i found an article saying DVD-R + DVD-RW are supported by toast 5 100%

i cant believe i never understood this........ it seems to me that we have been fooled. DVD-RAM seems to be superior in many ways to DVD+R & DVD-R!!
the fact that it writes slow (1x-4x) is ok when u realize that its basically an optical hard drive...that can be overwritten + rewritten...and reads almost as fast as a real hard drive (22mb/s)
its basically a reusable optical hard drive!

now im looking up the difference between dvd-ram + rewritables..
i just put a dvd+r RW into the g4... and tried to go to "recorder" -> "Erase" and it gave me the msg
"only CD-RW + DVD-RW can be erased" so not sure if that means toast only supports "DVD-R RW"(not "DVD+R RW")
or if its the sony drive itself that doesnt support erasing on "DVD+R RW" media

this shit is so confusing
i just looked thru all my binders i cant find a single DVD-R RW all of the rewritable discs i have ever had are all DVD+R RW

wow i was able to find 2 discs.. out of hundreds LOL
DVD-R RW has more of a silver metallic look on the data side...
trying to erase with toast 5 / mac os 9..

its working! its allowing me to erase the disc..
taking a long ass time tho

SUCCESS!
the DVD-RW disc was erased sucessfuly..
it took about 20-25min but its erased.. 4.7gb of freespace

heres what else i learned..
my sony dl drive.. it isnt seen as being capable of DVD-RAM by toast or Drive setup
drivesetup sees it as a 'DVD-ROM'

upon replacing the old LG(made by hitachi "HL") dvd "multi-drive"
when i booted into os9 it asked me if i wanted to initialize the dvd
but drive setup itself.. when i go into see if i can initialize the DVD-RW disc..
instead of saying "cannot initialize read-only blah blah" that it said with the sony drive
now it says "cannot initialize a disk in an unsupported drive"
so this is strange because like i said the os gave me a window asking me to do it when it saw the disc in the drive
as i booted up.. i guess i will reboot + see if i can initialize this DVD-RW disc that i just erased..
the only formatting options it gives me is "mac os standard" or "prodos"
and then it tells me the disc is locked... probably because of the "unsupported drive"
maybe its to do with drive setup version?
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1826.msg9291#msg9291
this post i quoted somethign about initializing disks with drive setup
but thats for dvd-ram discs not dvd-rw..
i dunno. i give up for now;)

« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 04:41:10 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2014, 03:42:10 AM »
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/faq/power-mac-g4-how-to-replace-upgrade-optical-cd-dvd-drive.html

Quote
How do you replace or upgrade the optical drive in the Power Mac G4 models? What are the capabilities of the default optical drives? What is DVD-RAM?

It is simple to replace or upgrade the optical drive in the Power Mac G4 models and for systems that shipped with anything less than a DVD-R/CD-RW "SuperDrive" an upgrade is particularly worthwhile. Even systems that shipped with an optical drive capable of writing to single layer DVD-R are good candidates for many users to upgrade to a dual-layer DVD burner.

For those who have more recently picked up a Power Macintosh G4 and are not familiar with the ill-fated DVD-RAM standard, it is an archaic rewritable DVD format that can store between 2.6 GB (one sided) and 5.2 GB (double sided) on a disc. DVD-RAM can read DVD-ROM and DVD-Video discs, but can only write to DVD-RAM discs.

DVD-RAM could be used along with video editing software to create a DVD-Video disc layout with MPEG-2 video and AC-3 audio, which could be replayed in DVD-RAM drives, but not in DVD-Video drives. Any Power Macintosh G4 with a DVD-RAM drive defintely is a great candidate for an upgrade.

All Power Macintosh G4 models use an EIDE (ATA-3) bus for the optical drive, and the default capabilities of the optical drive that shipped with each -- as well as instructions from Apple and site sponsor Other World Computing -- are provided below:

i kinda want to use my 2nd optical bay in my mdd now for a DVD-RAM drive!!!! "ill-fated + archaic" LOL ;D but yet it can write a 9.4 gb Double sided DVD! that can be erased + overwritten 5x as many times as normal rewritables.. and has a data throughput of 22mb/s?? yet everymac is talkin trash.. because like most people think its shit because THEY DONT HAVE ANY DVD-RAM DISCS!! LOL
and they just want to burn a cd for the car.. or burn a dvd for the video disc player..
but for "backup" needs.. software.. mp3s...  the DVD-RAM sounds fucking DOPE and its mac os 9 toast-5 compatible ;D



even if u just use the single sided, non funky cartridge ones, one type is 2.6gb per side, and the other is 4.7gb per side, double sided giving 5.2gb or 9.4gb. thats amazing for backup!!! and u can erase it! a gazillion times.. and reuse it..
sounds WIN to me
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 04:35:03 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2014, 04:00:26 AM »
Virtually all formats of CD and DVD are supported in Mac Os 9, including "+", "-", "mini"(8 cm), "RW" "RAM" and probably DL. But the combination of the DVD burner and media can result in a weird combination of support and unsupported formats, I'll show some weird facts that I know:

- LG GH24NSB0: To write a CD-RW, only Sony branded are accepted. Thanks god that are the fastest 10X.

- LITE-ON SHW-1635S: To write a DVD, only Auchan branded are accepted. Thanks god that are the cheapest here :)

- LITE-ON SOHW-1673S Reads everything on Mac Os 9 but newer wrote anything successfully.

- Pioneer 110D works very well, may be the only one that can wrote  a DL DVD.

...
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2014, 04:25:18 AM »
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/18946/what-exactly-is-a-dvd-ram-drive-and-how-does-it-work

Quote
There are three formats for rewritable DVD discs: DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM.

DVD-RW
DVD-RW is a rewriteable format (similar in nature to CD-RW). DVD-RW has a read-write capacity of 4.7 gigabytes per side. It can be rewritten up to about 1000 times. Both DVD-R and DVD-RW were developed and approved by the DVD Forum (http://www.dvdforum.org), of which Apple is a member.
The SuperDrive can use DVD-RW discs. Mac OS X can write to DVD-R General Media discs, which are not rewriteable. Roxio's Toast 5 Titanium and Charismac's Discribe 5 can write to DVD-RW discs. Contact Roxio and Charismac for additional information.
Once written, DVD-R and DVD-RW discs can be used in many different drives and players. The DVD Compatibility page (http://www.apple.com/dvd/compatibility) only lists players compatible with DVD-R discs. Because of differences in DVD-R and DVD-RW media, not all players that read DVD-R discs will read DVD-RW discs. Check with the player manufacturer for DVD-RW compatibility information.

DVD+RW
DVD+RW is a rewriteable format of similar capacity to DVD-RW, but was developed separately by the DVD+RW Alliance (http://www.dvdrw.com/). DVD+RW is not write compatible with DVD-R drives such as the SuperDrive, so the SuperDrive cannot write to DVD+RW discs.

DVD-RAM
DVD-RAM can be looked at as a large capacity floppy or Zip disk as it is has random read-write access. The disc is part of a cartridge and is available in 2.6 GB and 4.7 GB single-sided and 5.2 GB and 9.4 GB double-sided capacities. It can be rewritten more than one hundred thousand times. DVD-RAM was developed by the DVD Forum seperately from the release of DVD-R and DVD-RW.
While some DVD-RAM discs can be removed from the cartridge, those discs cannot be read by or written to using the SuperDrive.
Information about products not manufactured by Apple is provided for information purposes only, and does not constitute Apple's recommendation or endorsement. Please contact the vendor for additional information. Document 17159 can help you search for a particular vendor's address and phone number: "Locating Vendor Information"

DVD-RW DL + DVD+RW DL do not exist !!! its a big confusion among consumers because sometimes these manufacturers put this "RW" logo on the Dual Layer disc
even tho all DL discs are either +R  or -R *NOT +RW or -RW*
there is no dual layer or rewritable disc greater then 4.7gb on either + or - Format
***THIS IS WHY DVD-RAM DOUBLE SIDED WOULD KICK ASSSS!!!!!
because its 5.2gb or 9.4gb..AND REWRITABLE!
bigger then any other "Write-Once" dual layer by almost 1gb!!!!***

http://www.computerweekly.com/feature/White-Paper-DVD-RAM-Is-it-a-reliable-technology
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 03:07:48 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2014, 03:14:18 PM »
my questions having read all this info...

can a old DVD-RAM drive (shipped with a powermac g3 originally in 1999)
read/write to new DVD-RAM media?

The article "about the dvd-ram drive" from the apple site made reference to "type 1" + "type 2" dvd-ram media
but these new media say "type 4"

*note that it says disc removable to indicate that this dvd-ram disc can be removed from its cartridge
these dvd-ram discs are effectively 9.4gb optical backup hard drives capable of being written to in the same style as a floppy disc
differently from most dvd types u dont have to burn the whole disc or a portion of the disc to write to it


question is.. is this 'backward compatible'?

we know toast 5 supports DVD-RAM.. and from the time of the powermac g3's release apple supported DVD-RAM by shipping .. i think it was an upgrade option .. DVD-RAM drives with powermac g3 b&w, sawtooth, + gigabit ethernet models (later quicksilvers + mdds came with *superdrive* instead of dvd-ram)

so does anyone have an *original* apple DVD-RAM drive in their mac still?
most people would have replaced this drive because of the fact that it doesnt burn normal cd or dvd..
but maybe someone out there has a new old stock mac in which this wasnt replaced...
would u be willing to do a test by getting one of these DVD-RAM Verbatim discs ??????
the discs are about 10$ each on average i think but they are reusable up to 500,000 times (thats alot)
we need someone with an original Apple DVD-RAM to test to see if these new dvd-ram discs are still compatible with the very old DVD-RAM drives!!!!!!!

i think to use a double sided disc u need to have this different loading mechanism that either takes a square cartiidge placed inside the drive
or the strange slot loading style like this

which accepts a dvd-ram double sided disc without its cartridge
or a cartridge loading one like this:
9.4GB
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igMS27pMces[/youtube]
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 01:41:52 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2014, 03:45:55 AM »
most of the LG burners that say "multi recorder" or "super multi" are supposed to support DVD-RAM burning with DVD-RAM media
question is if Mac os 9 will allow this.... my toast 5 recognized my LG burner as a dvd-ram..but the sony burner i have is only DVD R/RW and doesnt support DVD-RAM
the LG burner is also seen as "dvd-ram GSA-4082B" in apple system profiler
of course when i try to write files to a disc using "write to dvd-ram" toast 5 obviously recognizes that this disc is not media
of the "Dvd-ram" type and does not allow..

im trying to get my hands on some dvd-ram media to test this further!
the question im wanting to answer now is:
will the LG "multi-recorders" support mac os 9 initialization + drag n drop copying via finder?
or is this integrated use of dvd-ram only available with official "Apple" dvd-ram's manufactured "to apple specification"
its possible the lg just might work! (allowing on the fly per-file burning via drag n drop via finder)
not the original goal of this thread, but a very interesting development!  8)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 07:56:52 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline IIO

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2014, 04:20:50 AM »
The DVD Driver (LG GH24NSB0) support up to 24X DVD write speed.

according to LG this burner supports a max of 8x for +R DL as well as -R DL.

sorry if missed it but how do you connect? ATA SATA or firewire? DL via firewire should be supported when i recall right.

if not, just install that utility called "MacOS X" and use that to burn. :)
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2014, 05:01:57 AM »
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDvNBmrTONw[/youtube]
this video demonstrates visually the front-slot loading mechanisms ability to load cartridge or bare discs
PD logo stands for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-change_Dual

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2014, 08:52:58 AM »

disc burning speed reference

dvd speeds vs cd speeds
http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa4.htm


supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2014, 05:39:27 AM »
on my last post http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1860.msg9419#msg9419
i was looking at this chart, and i noticed the changes column for 9.1 read "integrated disc burning within finder"
is it possible to burn dual layer this way? with finder integrated burning?

i was also reading this document:
http://www.spinergymedia.com/Resources/documents/ISO-Manual.pdf

which talked of toast using many different file systems in how it burns discs
a combination of iso 9660, joliet, UDF + HFS..
althought this may be in reference only to hybrid cd/dvd option of burning?

just trying to understand why the dvd mactron burned was only readable in osx
and not os9.. it must have to do with improper disc finalization??

i found this chart on udf format compatibility..

could it be that toast 5.23 is creating the disc in UDF 2.0 format? rendering it readable only in osx 10.4+?

Quote
Long Filenames & CD-ROMs http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan03/articles/pcmusician0103.asp
     The most common CD file system is ISO 9660 Level 1, which only supports filenames in the old DOS-style format of 8+3 (up to eight characters chosen from A-Z, 0-9, and _ [underscore], followed by a dot, with an optional extender of up to three characters). As with DOS, any files that you burn onto a CD-ROM with a longer name will become truncated, so that for instance the Program Files folder will be displayed as 'PROGRA~1'.

Thankfully, there are extensions to this basic standard, allowing you to save and retrieve longer filenames. For PC users Microsoft's Joliet extension allows filenames of up to 64 mixed lower and uppercase characters, and is supported from Windows 95 onwards. Most PC CD-burning packages add the Joliet filesystem to the ISO one, so that if you read them under DOS you'll only see the 8+3 format, while from Windows you'll see the full-length filenames. However, you may still come across some limitations when backing up Windows folders onto CD-ROM, since in addition to the 8+3 filename restrictions, the ISO 9660 standard only supports path depths up to eight levels and a total path name of up to 255 characters.

The UDF (Universal Disk Format) file system specification is optimised to handle huge data sizes and to minimise changes if a file needs to be added or deleted, and was developed for CD-R and CD-R/W media. It's used by DVD-ROM and some packet writing software including Roxio's DirectCD, and is supported by Windows 98 onwards (as well as by Mac OS 8.1 onwards). Without suitable drivers you can only read UDF format CD-ROMs on a CD recorder, so when you close a session to read it on other players, most packet-writing software adds an ISO 9660 file system to make its contents universally visible.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 08:19:34 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2014, 08:10:24 AM »
toast supports many ways of burning cds:


Quote
Toast 4
-Mac Volume
-Files&Folders
-ISO9660
-Mac/Iso Hybrid
-Audio CD
-Multitrack CD XA
-Disc Image

Quote
Toast 5
-Mac OS CD
-Mac/PC hybrid
-MAc Os Extended CD
-Mac os Extended + PC CD

if u click + hold down on "Other"
-video cd
-mp3 cd
-DVD
-disc image
-Mac Volume
-iso 9660
-custom hybrid

maybe this "other" -> DVD type creates UDF 1.5???
http://2bolo.com/articles/filesystems.html

Packet Writing with DirectCD for Mac
http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/packet-writing-directcd-for-mac/
http://www.atpm.com/4.07/page13.shtml
http://web.archive.org/web/20021201103906/http://www.roxio.com/en/products/ecdc/dcdfaqs.jhtml

Quote
What is DirectCD?
A. Easy CD Creator 5 Platinum includes DirectCD - a powerful feature that makes it easy to record data to CD or DVD. DirectCD allows your CD or DVD recordable/rewritable or DVD drive to appear just like any other drive volume. In other words, your drive handles files just like a hard disk or floppy disk. Using Windows Explorer you can drag & drop, rename, move or "delete" files and directories right on your disc. You can use the "Save As" command in your spreadsheet, word processor, or other application to save files directly to disc as well.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 08:59:02 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2014, 08:49:03 AM »
just trying to understand why the dvd mactron burned was only readable in osx
and not os9.. it must have to do with improper disc finalization??

That's what I think.

But why after 8 GB of data writing it can't write the disk finalization?
And that weird message: "INVALID FIELD IN CDB"
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2014, 09:00:10 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDDB
Quote
How CDDB works

CDDB was designed around the task of identifying entire CDs, not merely single tracks. The identification process involves creating a "discid", a sort of "fingerprint" of a CD created by performing calculations on the track duration information stored in the table-of-contents of the CD (see the following section for an example calculation). This discid is used with the Internet database, typically either to download track names for the whole CD or to submit track names for a newly identified CD.

This information is often provided by end users.[12] In iTunes, which uses Gracenote, users name the CD tracks and then use the "Submit Track Names" option under the "Advanced" heading in the toolbar to submit track information.[13]

Since identification of CDs is based on the length and order of the tracks, CDDB cannot identify playlists in which the order of tracks has been changed, or compilations of tracks from different CDs. CDDB also cannot distinguish between different CDs that have the same number of tracks and the same track lengths.


u must have tried to burn it as a cd and not as a dvd
u have to use the DVD setting under the "other" menu (DVD was new at the time, hence the "other" placement)

this will burn the disc into udf format.. most likely 1.02 udf format.. or 1.5 udf format
another way i think it could work is to use the "disc image" option and create first a 7gb disc image with disc copy and then use that as the 'disc image' source for the dvd - this would ensure a mac os 9 readable hfs+ filesystem 100%

i was just about to test these options myself but hte drive i installed back into the mac (LG GSA 4082B) doesnt support dual layer... i have to replace back this sony burner to try again..

under toast 5 preferences there is a default value of freedb.org that its using as the CDB
also settings for disk cache + ram cache may be important for buffer underrun
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 09:18:15 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2014, 10:04:51 AM »
Thank You Chris but CDB isn't the same as CDDB.

another way i think it could work is to use the "disc image" option and create first a 7gb disc image with disc copy and then use that as the 'disc image' source for the dvd - this would ensure a mac os 9 readable hfs+ filesystem 100%

I've tried this also.
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2014, 10:31:28 AM »
"INVALID FIELD IN CDB"
CDB stands for "Command Descriptor Block"
its part of how the program communicates with the drive

after checking google a number of different result for this
this is possibly related to:

"incompatible media"
"using the wrong speed for the media"
"using buffer underrun prevention on - media" (or other error prevention techniques)

basically the drive is responding with this error because its being told to do something that it doesnt support?
for example i found a thread where disabling some feature in nero (on pc) called "jitter correction" got rid of their error
the reason for their problem was that this drive didnt support this feature
http://club.myce.com/f96/invalid-field-cdb-052400-error-when-scanning-w-nero-cd-dvd-speed-discspeed-243961/

theres not many other thijngs to change in toast 5 preferences
other then deselecting "buffer underrun prevention"
if you are using + media i read that you should not use this buffer underrun prevention setting
its only intended for dvd-r + dvd-rw media

examining this info:
http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/scsi/2930/aha-2930cu/use_prod/scsi_event_codes.htm?nc=/en-us/support/scsi/2930/aha-2930cu/use_prod/scsi_event_codes.htm
Quote
Typical codes: 04 (format), 2F (verify), (03) request sense, 25 (read capacity) Host Adapter Status (usually 00h "no host adapter error" Indicated no error on the host adapter)

25 (read capacity) could be generating an error because of the size of the disc...
that would really suck if thats the problem;(
its definately part of the sesion close communication
during the communication of the required parameters to write the finalization somethijng is going wrong

is there any way under os 9 to see the properties of the drive?
the pioneer drive "DVR-109" properties in the image attached show it only supports DL burning on + type media
are u sure u used the right speed for DL? 8x is the usual speed for DL media
have u tried burning on 1x or 2x just to see what would happen?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 10:53:44 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2014, 10:50:57 AM »

theres not many other thijngs to change in toast 5 preferences
other then deselecting "buffer underrun prevention"
if you are using + media i read that you should not use this buffer underrun prevention setting
its only intended for dvd-r + dvd-rw media

Yes, I know. I've tested this also, without better result.

Quote
its definately part of the sesion close communication
during the communication of the required parameters to write the finalization somethijng is going wrong

Yes... but what?
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2014, 10:54:53 AM »
is there a verbose log generated by toast somewhere to check ?
to see a more detailed error?

Offline IIO

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2014, 04:24:26 PM »

mactron care to answer my questions? :)

oh, and i just see you are burning files and folders. have you tried burning an image file yet?
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supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2014, 05:27:35 PM »
http://www.nero.com/enu/company/press/press-release.php?id=239
nero 6 claims to be the first software to support dual layer as of feb 22nd 2005

BUT then i found this:
http://www.roxio.com/enu/company/press/archive/2004/roxio_delivers_dvd_double_layer_burning_software.html
April 27, 2004 Easy Media Creator 7 OEM with DVD+R DL Capabilities Now Available Along with Update for Retail Customers

dual layer vs double layer? different technology?
Double Layer = DVD+R DL?
Dual layer = DVD-R DL?

AND NOW i find this:
http://www.roxio.ca/enu/company/press/archive/2004/roxio_to_deliver_dvd_double_layer_burning_software_for_mac.html
Roxio Delivers DVD Double Layer Burning Software  (April 27, 2004)


« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 08:51:05 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2014, 06:52:30 PM »
so here we have it...

DVD+R DL was supported way before DVD-R DL
toast 6 first to support this..
*BUT* was part that technology added to the 5.x final update aswell?
we need to find a DATE for the final update of toast 5.23 i have looked for this but havent found it yet

checking the date of the 5.23 update file it is
November 13th 2003

so maybe its time to give up and just boot to X and use Roxio Toast 6 (whichever update is after april 27th 2004)

http://www.roxio.ca/enu/company/press/archive/2003/roxio_announces_release_of_toast_6_titanium.html
August 18, 2003 Roxio Announces Release of Toast 6 Titanium Compatible with Mac OS 10.2 and higher

i guess double layer (using DVD+R DL media) requires the first update Toast Titanium **v6.1.1**
heres the link http://softwareupdates.roxio.com/gm/ja_updates/toast/toast_ti_611_update.zip
zip so extract only on X

checking the file date of the readme file in the installer .dmg
created april 15th 2004
modified april 19th 2004

5 months out from the 5.23 update date of november 13 2003 (alot closer then i thought!!!!!!!!!!!!)
can so much change in 5 months? ;D

perhaps a test of 5.23 working under mac os x would prove successfull?
the question is.. which is more important.. software or hardware?

unfortunately i think both have to work together ;/

here is a thread
http://macosx.com/threads/update-toast-5-2-1-titanium-or-later-to-5-2-3.38793/
claims that 5.23 version was updated for compatibility with mac os x panther 10.3

here is a backup of the original update post as it was seen in december 2003
http://web.archive.org/web/20031202025303/http://www.roxio.com/en/support/toast/software_updatesv5.jhtml
original file name: RToast_Ti_Updater_523.hqx

but the thing is.. was there even DVD drives that could do DVD+R DL at that time?
heres a press release from pioneer
http://news.cnet.com/Pioneer-doubles-down-on-DVD-recorder/2100-1041_3-5268089.html
from july 2004
whos timing coincides with this press release on the pioneer site
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Press-Room/Professional-Products/Pioneer+Introduces+World%27s+First+and+Fastest+Multiple+Format+DVD+Drive+Combined+with+4X+Double+Layer+Write+Technology

the drive: Pioneer DVR-A08
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Computer/Computer+Drives/DVR-A08XL
+
Quote

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/138551408DVR108_GSpecs.pdf

DVD-R 16X Zone CLV
DVD-RW 4X Zone CLV 
DVD+R (Single Layer) 16X Zone CLV
DVD+R DL (Double Layer) 4X Zone CLV
DVD+RW 4X Zone CLV 
CD-R 32X Zone CLV
CD-RW 24X Zone CLV
so it looks like Double layer with ("+") type media was introduced at 4x speed
with drives appearing summer of 2004 , a few months behind the software
(checking the original optical drive to come with my
quicksilver 933mhz it is a "2x superdrive" which is also known as a DVR-104 Pioneer drive, same series/manufacturer but earlier technology
but the point i wanted to make: it shows "Apple supported burning" in system profiler under mac os 9 so maybe all pioneer DVR series burners
will show the same? because my hitachi/LG HL-DT-ST drives do not show as apple supported)

i think i better stop trying to figure this out and just use Toast 6.1.1 or above to burn disc image from mac os 9 disk copy NDIF .img ;)
but if anyone wants to test further with 5.23... before i said that DVD-R DL would be better.. but i was wrong.. DVD+R DL @ 4X is the one to try, using "DVD" setting under "OTHER" menu
its support came first apparently!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 09:47:24 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2014, 09:38:45 PM »
heres an earlier article linked to by the pioneer drive article
http://news.cnet.com/The-duel-of-the-dual-layer-DVD-formats/2100-1041_3-5130905.html
December 29, 2003

supernova777

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Re: burning dual layer dvds
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2014, 04:07:45 AM »
just ran another test with the sony, and it was looking good, i think it failed somewhere near the 4.2gb mark.. with a sense key, medium error
i took screenshots... not sure if its the memorex DVD+R DL media doesnt like the sony drive... ive not once gotten the "INVALID FIELD IN CDB" error that you got mactron..
im curious tho, if theres anway for us to compare how much data is written to your disc before the fail.. im wondering if its failing just at the point in which the total mb has gone
past the amount for single layer normal DVD-R

again.. putting the DVD into my mac g5.. it reads it 100%!
the disc is named just as i intended to name it..."DoubleYu"
clicking the very last file on the file structure, which happened to be a pdf..
the pdf opens fine! 100%! the disc seems to contain all the data from the
burn .. the total size of this test: 5.89gb reported in Tiger... roughly 3 gb per folder
it mounts just fine.. all files accessible in Tiger just fine..

same result as you - inserting this disc back int he mac os 9 machine it was made in
results in no mount.

this is why i was wondering if its somehow writing in udf format 2.0 which tiger can interpret
but mac os 9 cannot.. very strange!!!!!!!!

checking the disc info from toast 7 ti in tiger i get this:


according to the image it shows the second sesion is still "open" and was never closed properly
i never told it to write "sessions" but i did drag in two directories to toast 5... to make the file size of the disk
go beyond the 4.7gb for testing..

checking file size of the two containing directories i wrote to the disk (with CMD-i in tiger)
the directories show the proper size!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 04:25:16 AM by chrisNova777 »