Pages: 1 ... 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 [76] 77   Go Down

Author Topic: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)  (Read 648692 times)

vamadeus

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1500 on: May 22, 2024, 08:43:23 AM »

I recently used the V9 disc to install Mac OS 9 on my 1.25 Ghz G4 Mini.

Overall it works pretty well, but I've observed a few issues.

My experience from your point list...

1. I have had this happen. When booting up, I do make sure I move the mouse. I do have USB Overdrive installed.

2. 1.42 GHz model, 1 GB RAM, PATA SSD, no crashes.

3. No delay on booting with the PATA SSD I have.

4. Right, known issue, went through a bit to get mine working better through a USB adapter, but no issues now.

5. Haven't tried this.

6. One thing to note: Mac OS 9 does not support 1920x1080 I believe as a resolution. That would be what you would get with most HDMI connections with modern displays. I have my Mini connected via DVI through a USB/DVI based KVMA switch to a 1920x1200 display and it works perfectly. Two other Intel Minis and a 2013 Mac Pro connected up also. I do use a couple of HDMI -> DVI adapters for this.

7. No knowledge on this.

As for the mapping of function keys, have never had to do that outside of an app that actually supports function keys.

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding the the SSD delay, I wonder if it's specific to the SSD I am using. I am using an mSATA drive and mSATA to PATA adapter.

The delay is a bit of an inconvenience, but I can live with that for now. I'm more concerned about the crashing.

When I reapplied the thermal paste yesterday, it was the first time it's been done on that machine. The CPU didn't even seem like it had any existing thermal paste on it at all after removing the heatsink. It did run fine for a few hours last night since applying it though, only crashing with a specific game (which seems to be a problem specific to that game).

The function keys are low priority for me since I don't need to use them that often. I do have USB Apple and PC keyboards I can use if I really want to have function keys. Being able to access them with my current keyboard just may be nice for the occasional app or game that can use them, or to bind something like a restart apple script to one.

Now that I think about it, I originally set up my mini using a 1280x1024 monitor with straight DVI to the monitor. I'm not sure if the monitor used DVI-A or DVI-D though. I'll have to play around with it more, but for now the VGA CRT works for me even if it is a bit cramped sometimes.
Logged

gregbuchner

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1501 on: May 22, 2024, 09:40:10 AM »

From reading another post, it looks like someone was getting 1920x1080 to work, but I never did. Two different 1920x1080 displays with no picture. Two different 1920x1200 displays with no issues (even through the KVMA switch). Testing of the 1920x1080 displays was with a DVI to HDMI cable.
Logged

Jubadub

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 397
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1502 on: May 23, 2024, 12:15:19 AM »

1920x1080 works fine in OS 9 and Mac mini both, tested in all models personally except 1.33GHz. Have also used both 1920x1200 and 1600x1200, as well, although the former is tricky with some monitors/mini models.

The Mac mini G4 shouldn't crash unless it's software incompatibility somewhere with Mac OS 9.2.2 specifically, such as a number of very old applications crashing during "Quit". The only documented crash specifically tied to the Mac mini G4 that has been documented in all these years seems to be when software tries to access and/or make use of a microphone, such as for audio recording, at least AFAIK. So if your Mac mini is crashing outside these scenarios, then there is an issue worth looking into: RAM, CPU, GPU, temperatures or whatever.

No issues hotswapping mouse/keyboard with any of my minis, ever, both manually and via an ATEN KVM. Without the KVM, though, I get glitchy audio if my USB speakers are swapped, usually.

Audio is known to be problematic with this effort, so using an USB adapter for audio sockets/ports fixes all the known audio issues.

Unmoving mouse cursor is at times indeed also a thing, moving the mouse when booting or not is seemingly unrelated to the odds of it happening AFAICT from years of testing that theory. IIRC v9 was supposed to fix this, but doesn't. So for convenience it's good to keep a "Restart" script tied to one of your F-keys, such as F12. You do this from the "Keyboard" Control Panel, and select an AppleScript that will do it for you, or something similar.
Logged

fergycool

  • Valued Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1503 on: May 23, 2024, 08:12:40 AM »

I'm also running 1920x1080 straight DVI into a Dell 2405fpw 24" monitor from a G4 Mac Mini 1.5Ghz. It's 1920x1200 that I cannot get working!
Logged

fergycool

  • Valued Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1504 on: May 23, 2024, 08:17:16 AM »

I also recently installed v9 ISO on a Mac Mini 1.5Ghz

1. Mouse will sometimes not move after boot. Moving the mouse a bit while it's booting up seems to help it more reliably work after boot. Issue occurs with several mice that I've tried in the same way, even with Apple USB mice. I have to restart the Mini to restore the mouse movement working properly. Mouse issues seem to be a reoccurring common problem with the Mini from what I've seen.

3. There is like a 10-15 second delay on boot/restart before the Mini detects the boot disk and starts booting. Not sure if this is specific to Mac OS 9 on the Mini or if it's the SSD I am using.

I also see both of these issues. For the USB one I've found unplugging then re-plugging the mouse generally (not always) fixes it.

For (3) I just ignore it until it's booted :-)
Logged

ssp3

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 823
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1505 on: May 23, 2024, 09:42:46 AM »

Regarding delay at start-up, try these:
* Set boot drive in Startup Disk control panel.
* Disable RAM checking at startup in Memory control panel.

Regarding display, Mac Mini ROM and ATI driver compatibility, see this post or check the whole thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.msg54791#msg54791
I've tested many more displays since my last post, but I haven't updated the table yet.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2024, 09:57:06 AM by ssp3 »
Logged
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

fergycool

  • Valued Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1506 on: May 24, 2024, 02:00:42 AM »

Thanks.

My boot partition is selected in Startup Drive. I've tried changing it then back again with no effect.

I do not see the memory checking option in the Memory Control Panel (see screenshot). Does some extension need to be installed for that?

Logged

fergycool

  • Valued Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1507 on: May 24, 2024, 02:48:18 AM »

I do not see the memory checking option in the Memory Control Panel (see screenshot). Does some extension need to be installed for that?

Aha! It's the old "CMD-OPTION" trick! I've done that. That does make a difference! Thanks.
Logged

zefrenchtoon

  • Veteran Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1508 on: May 24, 2024, 04:40:59 AM »

Don't forget the "Pixel Clock Rate" problem of the Mac Mini G4.

There is another thread about this: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4337.20

And here is a technical documentation about what it is: https://www.ti.com/document-viewer/lit/html/SSZT622

The limit for the Mac Mini G4 is 135MHz.

As you can see here, if you can set a lower refresh rate, you can go high on resolution.
Logged

aBc

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 175
  • FdB•FBz•aBc
Re: Mac OS 9 booting Mac mini G4
« Reply #1509 on: May 24, 2024, 05:35:13 AM »

Anyone else using an ADB to USB keyboard adapter like the “Tinkerboy” mentioned above?

And what brand of mouse(?) connected to the mini’s remaining USB port? Every deviation from “standard” Apple reqs introduces other possible (mis)behaviors und problems. [i.e. ADB keyboards, non Apple mice and yes… even monitors). But then, not all of us here always “color within the lines”. If “we” did, there would be no booting of OS 9 on a Mac mini. ;)

Might be interesting to test / compare results with an actual Apple USB keyboard and mouse?

And refer to links provided by @zenfrenchtoon above, concerning the “Pixel Clock Rate” problem.
Logged
TRY the Original MacOS9Lives theme “Blu” / via your Profile --> Look and Layout settings.

ssp3

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 823
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1510 on: May 24, 2024, 09:13:02 AM »

The limit for the Mac Mini G4 is 135MHz.

Is it? ;)
Logged
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Jubadub

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 397
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1511 on: June 09, 2024, 01:26:07 AM »

For anyone interested, it turns out Apple introduced a bug within the Mac OS ROM file itself, starting with ROM version 8.8, which causes some graphical glitches with at least a few games on both ATI and NVidia GPUs (and somehow NVidia GPUs seem to have some other additional issues with them regards of ROM version). The issue is seemingly unrelated to the GPU and GPU driver version.

Thing is, the previous ROM version, 8.7, is totally fine and free of this problem.

At first, it was misattributed that Mac OS 9.2.2 was behind the issue, whereas 9.2.1 was fine, but I booted 9.2.1 on the mini (yes, it turns out that version of Mac OS can also boot in the mini as is), and confirmed the issue was still present. Because the hacked ROM we use for the Mac mini is based on ROM version 9.6.1.

It turns out ROM version 8.7 works perfectly fine with Mac OS 9.2.2, too, but the question is: if we patched ROM version 8.7 with all of the patches from @ELN & gang, would that be sufficient for the Mac mini G4 to still boot?

In the past we used I think the Sawtooth ROM, right? Then we switched to a G4-Cube-based ROM, hoping to address some issues. Could it be the Sawtooth ROM we had was v8.7 or lower? If so, it could be used to play those games. Else, we will need to patch ROM 8.7 with the Mac mini compatibility and see.

The following games are affected:
- The Labyrinth of Time
- Uncharted Waters II
- Yoot Tower

There's also a special case of a crash (rather than color corruption) that happened with Eric's Cascade, but we don't yet know if this one is because of Mac OS ROM 8.8+ as well, or if it's with an issue with Mac OS 9.2.2 itself that is not present in 9.2.1. We should check by trying to run it under 9.2.1 with the same ROM we already use. My bet is that the ROM is the culprit again, OR, this one has nothing to do with the ROM and it crashes Mac OS 9.2.1 and 9.2.2 both.

On a side note, for Mac OS X users out there (switch back to 9! ;)), under Classic this also happens even with ROM 8.7. Presumably Classic overrides the Mac OS ROM file, and Classic's replacement has the same issue. At least some versions of Classic do.

EDIT: Fixed broken hyperlink to the discussion from where the findings originated.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 04:10:35 AM by Jubadub »
Logged

ssp3

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 823
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1512 on: June 09, 2024, 01:52:20 AM »

For anyone interested, it turns out Apple introduced a bug within the Mac OS ROM file itself, starting with ROM version 8.8, which causes some graphical glitches with at least a few games on both ATI and NVidia GPUs (and somehow NVidia GPUs seem to have some other additional issues with them regards of ROM version). The issue is seemingly unrelated to the GPU and GPU driver version.

Thing is, the previous ROM version, 8.7, is totally fine and free of this problem.

@Jubadub, where did you get this information from? If it's true, do you have the 8.7 ROM?  I can try to patch it.
Logged
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Jubadub

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 397
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1513 on: June 09, 2024, 04:23:47 AM »

@Jubadub, where did you get this information from? If it's true, do you have the 8.7 ROM?  I can try to patch it.

Sorry, my hyperlink was broken. I edited the original post's hyperlink with the correct link now. This is where most of the discussion took place.

I didn't try locating ROM 8.7, but it might be found inside one of the Mac OS 9.2.1 install images, at least (hence the original misattribution of the problem being in 9.2.2). I know that at one point user "meauxdal" who found out most of this used this image, but I can't guarantee ROM 8.7 is in it. We got to check.

@ssp3 It would be awesome if you give this a go, since as far as the current regulars go, I think only you have messed around with the ROMs and rebuilt them.

EDIT: OK, I tested that image, and all it contains is ROM 8.4. I will ask "meauxdal" for where he found ROM 8.7.

EDIT 2: A Google Spreadsheet in the discussion mentions ROM 8.7 is found exclusively on the "Mac OS 9.2.2 Update SMI". Not sure if it is in the US English, International English and/or in some other 9.2.2 updater, but I guess that's what we look at.

EDIT 3: Yep, found the US English one (download #4). The .bin file contains a 9.2.2 SMI updater. I have attached the 8.7 ROM from it to this post for convenience, if you prefer the shortest route.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 05:09:40 AM by Jubadub »
Logged

ssp3

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 823
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1514 on: June 09, 2024, 05:21:06 AM »

At first look the ROM from that updater is much smaller than regular ROM (2.6 MB vs. 3.4 MB) and has only a few resources. Maybe it is just what it is - an update to some earlier version (8.4?)
Do you have any means to apply this update to earlier version and then upload the updated ROM?
Logged
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Jubadub

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 397
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1515 on: June 09, 2024, 05:29:19 AM »

At first look the ROM from that updater is much smaller than regular ROM (2.6 MB vs. 3.4 MB) and has only a few resources. Maybe it is just what it is - an update to some earlier version (8.4?)
Do you have any means to apply this update to earlier version and then upload the updated ROM?

That's what I did, actually: I installed that version of Mac OS 9.2.1, which came with ROM 8.4, then applied the whole 9.2.2 SMI updater on top of it, resulting in the 8.7 ROM. (It overwrote the previous 8.4 ROM automatically.)

I don't think I messed these steps up, but of course you can always double-check just in case and follow the same steps, and see if you get the same result.
Logged

ssp3

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 823
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1516 on: June 09, 2024, 05:40:41 AM »

I see.. Can you upload the other relevant parts from System Folder? System Resources, System Suitcase etc.
The differences of both ROM's resources are in a screenshot below.

EDIT. Are you saying that you can successfully boot Mac Mini off of 9.2.1?! If so, which CD image exactly is it? Direct link would be best. Thanks!

EDIT 2. I've checked this 9.2.1 installer https://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/Mac_OS_9.2.1.toast_.zip
Is this the one you've tried?
Its 8.4 ROM is also smaller than 9.6.1, just like 8.7. It appears that most of the resources are in System Resources file.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2024, 09:13:15 AM by ssp3 »
Logged
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Jubadub

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 397
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1517 on: June 09, 2024, 10:13:36 AM »

EDIT. Are you saying that you can successfully boot Mac Mini off of 9.2.1?! If so, which CD image exactly is it? Direct link would be best. Thanks!

EDIT 2. I've checked this 9.2.1 installer https://macintoshgarden.org/sites/macintoshgarden.org/files/apps/Mac_OS_9.2.1.toast_.zip
Is this the one you've tried?
Its 8.4 ROM is also smaller than 9.6.1, just like 8.7. It appears that most of the resources are in System Resources file.

Yes, booting Mac OS 9.2.1 on the Mac mini works fine, at least with the v8 ROM, which is the only one I tried. And yes, that direct download link is the one I used, as well, and is also what "meauxdal" originally had been using.
Logged

ssp3

  • Moderator
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 823
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1518 on: June 09, 2024, 10:54:38 AM »

Now you've totally confused me.
Are you booting 9.2.1 on Mac Mini with:
1. Original Apple 8.4 ROM
2. Original Apple 8.7 ROM
3. v.8 ROM from RossDarker's CD

Please clarify.
Logged
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Jubadub

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 397
  • New Member
Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
« Reply #1519 on: June 09, 2024, 12:22:20 PM »

Now you've totally confused me.
Are you booting 9.2.1 on Mac Mini with:
1. Original Apple 8.4 ROM
2. Original Apple 8.7 ROM
3. v.8 ROM from RossDarker's CD

Please clarify.

3. v.8 ROM from RossDarker's CD:

At first, it was misattributed that Mac OS 9.2.2 was behind the issue, whereas 9.2.1 was fine, but I booted 9.2.1 on the mini (yes, it turns out that version of Mac OS can also boot in the mini as is), and confirmed the issue was still present. Because the hacked ROM we use for the Mac mini is based on ROM version 9.6.1.

Of course, because this is based on ROM 9.6.1, the color glitches were present on 9.2.1 and 9.2.2 both.

If I was using ROM 8.4 or 8.7, I wouldn't be able to boot the mini, because these ROMs are stock and not modified for the purpose, just as is the case with a stock 9.6.1 ROM, as opposed to the modified 9.6.1 ROM we have in v8 and v9.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 [76] 77   Go Up
 

Recent Topics