Mac OS 9 Lives! (Classic Mac OS Forum)

Classic Mac Hardware (Troubleshooting, Upgrading, & Modifying) => Mac OS 9 Booting on Previously Unsupported Hardware => Topic started by: MacTron on April 08, 2015, 02:00:45 PM

Title: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacTron on April 08, 2015, 02:00:45 PM
I know that there was a few failed tries of booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini G4 with the iMic "Universal ROM" . I don't have any of this Macs nowadays, but I have a new suggestion if someone one is willing to try. I think the failure is because the G4 CPU is a 7447 or a 7448, so it needs the Openfirware Patch alongside the iMic "Universal ROM".
The Open Firmware commands needed are for just changing in the Device Tree the G4 CPU 7447 by 7455 or any other G4 CPU that the Mac Os 9 System knows about it . As we usually have to do when we use the 7447 or 7448 in a CPU upgrade card.
This commands were published around here... somewhere...

BTW: For the the Mac Os 8.6 fans, with this commands and a easy mod on the Mac Os ROM, may be we can boot the Mac Os 8.6 (the Sawtooth version) in to most of the Macintosh G4 family (up to QuickSilver)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Knezzen on April 08, 2015, 02:44:25 PM
It's worth a try! I have a 1.42ghz Mac Mini G4 here. I'll rig it up tomorrow for some tests :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: mrhappy on April 08, 2015, 06:11:48 PM
That would be very cool! ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 09, 2015, 08:34:56 AM
Bad news, it seems that this was tried already, but failed  :'(

https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46&p=5

... but it seems that they have some success with the eMac 1.25
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 09, 2015, 09:04:36 AM
There were 4 Minis (PPC) http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/index-macmini.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/index-macmini.html)
All the seem to share the Radeon 9200 with 16 or 32 or 64 gigs of VRAM.

They all have 10/100 ethernet, DVI output and a pair of USB.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Custos on December 26, 2015, 03:33:38 PM
Just got a 1.25GHz model. There has got to be some way of getting it to boot os9.  :-\
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on December 26, 2015, 04:46:35 PM
4 Models with 7447a proc.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.25.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.25.html)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.42.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.42.html)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.33.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.33.html)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.5.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.5.html)

The first 3 have 32 and the last 64 Mb of RAM in the same ATI 9200 that is the last ATI (at least the PCI one) that has Mac OS 9 drivers.

As MacTron said, it should need some open firmware commands to allow those 7447a proc. run in 9.

Is the northbridge, MPX, MaxBuss chipset the same than on MDD/iMac G4?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 16, 2016, 06:09:06 AM
4 Models with 7447a proc.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.25.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.25.html)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.42.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.42.html)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.33.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.33.html)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.5.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.5.html)

The first 3 have 32 and the last 64 Mb of RAM in the same ATI 9200 that is the last ATI (at least the PCI one) that has Mac OS 9 drivers.

As MacTron said, it should need some open firmware commands to allow those 7447a proc. run in 9.

Is the northbridge, MPX, MaxBuss chipset the same than on MDD/iMac G4?

The northbridge/chipset in the mac mini is the same that was used in the G4 iBook and All but the last revision of the G4 PowerBooks.
It's the Intrepid chip.
Title: Mac Mini 1.33
Post by: androda on May 15, 2016, 05:02:04 AM
By the way, anyone got a G4 mini?

Hello everyone, forum newbie here.

I just recently bought a G4 mini because of the work you guys are doing here.   :)  It's the 1.33Ghz model, with the original restore discs (10.4.2).  I'm willing to assist in testing things on my mini as I have time.
Title: Mac mini 2
Post by: ELN on May 16, 2016, 05:49:11 AM
Hello everyone, forum newbie here.

I just recently bought a G4 mini because of the work you guys are doing here.   :)  It's the 1.33Ghz model, with the original restore discs (10.4.2).  I'm willing to assist in testing things on my mini as I have time.

Very selfless -- thank you!

These are some instructions that a person with an Ethernet-connected unsupported machine can follow to produce an embarrassment of debug output.

Download and burn the "Unsupported G4" image from here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2143.0 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2143.0). I have instructed one user, by private message, to use an image that was probably not going to work. My apologies to that user.

Start the test machine with cmd-opt-O-F held down, until you reach the Open Firmware prompt. Choose an IP address that is on your local network but preferably outside your router's DHCP assignment range. The address 192.168.0.255 is a safe bet, and I will use it in this example. Enter the Open Firmware command (including the oddly-placed spaces):
Code: [Select]
" enet:telnet,192.168.0.255" io
On a separate OS X or Linux machine, open a terminal and Telnet into the test machine with this command:
Code: [Select]
telnet 192.168.0.255
Then, enter these commands into your terminal:
Code: [Select]
dev /
.properties
5303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property
boot cd:,\\tbxi

And post the output! (Or use a pastebin-like service if you think it's too long for the forum.)
Title: Re: Mac mini 2
Post by: androda on May 17, 2016, 04:14:25 AM
Here's the output from telnet:

Code: [Select]
ok
0 > dev /  ok
0 > .properties
model                   PowerMac10,2
compatible              PowerMac10,2
                        MacRISC3
                        Power Macintosh

serial-number           TA9
                        G86041P6TA9
customer-sw-config
pid#                    00000282
scb#                    00000001
display-config-info     00000000 00000001
name                    device-tree
copyright               Copyright 1983-2005 Apple Computer, Inc. All Rights Reserved
device_type             bootrom
system-id               0000000000000
#address-cells          00000001
#size-cells             00000001
clock-frequency         09eb1a55
AAPL,add-fcode-file     xt=^ff86.4150
 ok
0 > 5303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property  ok
0 > boot cd:,\\tbxi  can't OPEN: cd:,\\tbxi
Can't open device or file
 ok
0 > boot cd:,\\tbxi  can't OPEN: cd:,\\tbxi
Can't open device or file
 ok
0 >

I heard the CD drive spin up when I ran the command "boot cd:,\\tbxi", so it did check the disc.  As you can see, I tried the command twice and got the same results.

After this, out of curiosity I ran the command 'boot' and this is the output it gave me:
Code: [Select]
0 > boot load-size=2a8c4 adler32=86b8074c

parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>

Following this output, the mini booted into OS X.

I did not enter all that stuff about load-size and adler32.  It just appeared after I typed 'boot' and pressed enter.  After booting into OS X, the disc was read as 'MacOS9Lives' and it had a system folder and Mac OS ROM and everything.  So I think it was burned correctly.

I think we should move to this thread for more work on this subject: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2408.0.html
Title: Re: Mac mini 2
Post by: nanopico on May 17, 2016, 10:06:49 AM
Here's the output from telnet:

Code: [Select]
ok
0 > dev /  ok
0 > .properties
model                   PowerMac10,2
compatible              PowerMac10,2
                        MacRISC3
                        Power Macintosh

serial-number           TA9
                        G86041P6TA9
customer-sw-config
pid#                    00000282
scb#                    00000001
display-config-info     00000000 00000001
name                    device-tree
copyright               Copyright 1983-2005 Apple Computer, Inc. All Rights Reserved
device_type             bootrom
system-id               0000000000000
#address-cells          00000001
#size-cells             00000001
clock-frequency         09eb1a55
AAPL,add-fcode-file     xt=^ff86.4150
 ok
0 > 5303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property  ok
0 > boot cd:,\\tbxi  can't OPEN: cd:,\\tbxi
Can't open device or file
 ok
0 > boot cd:,\\tbxi  can't OPEN: cd:,\\tbxi
Can't open device or file
 ok
0 >

I heard the CD drive spin up when I ran the command "boot cd:,\\tbxi", so it did check the disc.  As you can see, I tried the command twice and got the same results.

After this, out of curiosity I ran the command 'boot' and this is the output it gave me:
Code: [Select]
0 > boot load-size=2a8c4 adler32=86b8074c

parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>

Following this output, the mini booted into OS X.

I did not enter all that stuff about load-size and adler32.  It just appeared after I typed 'boot' and pressed enter.  After booting into OS X, the disc was read as 'MacOS9Lives' and it had a system folder and Mac OS ROM and everything.  So I think it was burned correctly.

I think we should move to this thread for more work on this subject: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2408.0.html

the load-size, parsing and evaluating lines are pretty standard no matter what OS you try to boot.  Both 9 and X use a CHRP script for initial loading all that says is that it's working to boot something.

It is booting X because it doesn't like something with the CD or it doesn't find a valid ROM file.  I've heard of Open firmware not mapping the CD alias correctly.  You can try ide1:,\\tbxi
Or you can try the full path to the ROM (if it is in a System Folder in the root)
Example...
boot " cd:,\System Folder\Mac OS ROM:tbxi" if that fails replace cd with ide1.
Title: Re: Mac mini 2
Post by: ELN on May 17, 2016, 09:10:37 PM
And if *that* fails, try this:

Code: [Select]
boot cd:,\System%20Folder\Mac%20OS%20ROM
But I suspect that your CD or your drive is no good. So if that doesn't work, I have something else for you to try.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on May 18, 2016, 04:17:25 AM
Specifying the entire path to the Mac OS ROM gave me different results:

Code: [Select]
0 > 5303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property  ok
0 > boot " cd:,\System Folder\Mac OS ROM:tbxi" load-size=2a8c4 adler32=639f2646

parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>

After these lines printed out, the OS X grey apple logo screen appeared and the Mini basically just hung there doing nothing.  No additional output appeared in the console.

I know the combo drive is good in the Mini because it can read discs without an issue.  I think the disc I burned is good as well, because all the expected contents show up when the disc is in the drive in the mini.  But my beige g3's DVD drive doesn't read the disc - maybe the drive is just too old now.

Other things of interest: the entire device tree
Code: [Select]
0 > dev /  ok
0 > ls
ff899330: /cpus
ff8995c0:   /PowerPC,G4@0
ff899a28:     /l2-cache
ff89aa80: /chosen
ff89ac20: /memory@0
ff89ae20: /openprom
ff89af80:   /client-services
ff89c1b0: /rom@ff800000
ff89c368:   /boot-rom@fff00000
ff89c560:   /macos
ff89c5f0: /options
ff89c680: /aliases
ff89e570: /packages
ff89e608:   /deblocker
ff89ef58:   /disk-label
ff89ffc0:   /obp-tftp
ff8aabb0:   /telnet
ff8ab460:   /mac-parts
ff8aea88:   /mac-files
ff8b1c20:   /hfs-plus-files
ff8b7330:   /fat-files
ff8bab08:   /iso-9660-files
ff8bb918:   /bootinfo-loader
ff8bd588:   /xcoff-loader
ff8be058:   /macho-loader
ff8c0ec0:   /pe-loader
ff8c18c8:   /elf-loader
ff8c3818:   /usb-hid-class
ff8c6380:   /usb-ms-class
ff8c90d0:   /usb-audio-class
ff936bd0:   /sbp2-disk
ff93a740:   /ata-disk
ff93cd08:   /atapi-disk
ff93f328:   /bootpath-search
ff945960:   /terminal-emulator
ff945a28: /firewire-disk-mode
ff95c4f8: /pseudo-hid
ff95c5b0:   /keyboard
ff95cc30:   /mouse
ff95d0d8:   /eject-key
ff95d4d0: /pseudo-sound
ff95d660: /multiboot
ff9727b8: /diagnostics
ff972850: /xmodem
ff975218: /nvram@fff04000
ff9768f8: /uni-n@f8000000
ff976ab0:   /hw-clock
ff978048:   /i2c@f8001000
ff978c48:     /cereal@1c0
ff979340: /pci@f0000000
ff9ce978:   /uni-north-agp@b
ff9cec40:   /ATY,RockHopper2Parent@10
ff9dd290:     /ATY,RockHopper2_A@0
ff97a508: /pci@f2000000
ff97c8e0:   /mac-io@17
ff97dd70:     /interrupt-controller@40000
ff97dfe8:     /gpio@50
ff97e5a8:       /modem-reset@1d
ff97e700:       /modem-power@1c
ff97e858:       /extint-gpio1@9
ff97ea38:       /programmer-switch@11
ff97efc0:       /gpio5@6f
ff97f140:       /gpio6@70
ff97f2c0:       /extint-gpio15@67
ff97f4b0:     /escc-legacy@12000
ff97f6d8:       /ch-a@12004
ff97f888:       /ch-b@12000
ff97fa38:     /escc@13000
ff97fc70:       /ch-a@13020
ff980880:       /ch-b@13000
ff9813e8:     /i2s@10000
ff9815d0:       /i2s-a@10000
ff981988:         /sound
ff9df600:       /i2s-b@11000
ff981af8:     /timer@15000
ff981ca0:     /via-pmu@16000
ff985500:       /pmu-i2c
ff9864f0:         /temp-monitor@190
ff986af8:           /local@0
ff986c90:           /remote@1
ff987230:       /rtc
ff987900:       /power-mgt
ff9dfd10:         /usb-power-mgt
ff987b40:       /pmu-pwm-fans
ff988078:         /fan
ff9882c0:     /i2c@18000
ff988ee8:       /cereal@1c0
ff9895e0:     /ata-3@20000
ff98c300:       /disk
ff99c0e0:   /usb@1a
ff9a4a00:   /usb@1b
ff9ad378:   /usb@1b,1
ff9de320:     /hub@1
ff9de5b8:       /keyboard@1
ff9de9e0:       /mouse@2
ff9b5cf0:   /usb@1b,2
ff97b708: /pci@f4000000
ff9b6178:   /ata-6@d
ff9b9360:     /disk
ff9b99c8:   /firewire@e
ff9c90a0:   /ethernet@f
ff9dfe60:     /ethernet-phy ok

And all the aliases for hardware:  apparently the graphics card is called a 'RockHopper'??

Code: [Select]
0 > devalias
pci0                /pci@f0000000
agp                 /pci@f0000000
pci1                /pci@f2000000
pci2                /pci@f4000000
uni-n               /uni-n
ui2c                /uni-n/i2c
ui2c-serial         /uni-n/i2c/cereal
keyboard            /pseudo-hid/keyboard
mouse               /pseudo-hid/mouse
sound               /pseudo-sound
eject-key           /pseudo-hid/eject-key
nvram               /nvram
enet                /pci@f4000000/ethernet
fw                  /pci@f4000000/firewire
cpu0                /cpus/@0
cpu1                /cpus/@1
pci                 /pci@f2000000
usb0                /pci@f2000000/usb@1b,1
usb1                /pci@f2000000/usb@1b
usb-1a              /pci@f2000000/@18
usb-1b              /pci@f2000000/@19
usb-1c              /pci@f2000000/@1a
usb-2a              /pci@f2000000/@1b
usb-2b              /pci@f2000000/@1b,1
usb-2c              /pci@f2000000/@1b,2
hd                  /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk@0
cd                  /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk@1
ide0                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk@0
ide1                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk@1
ultra0              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-4@1f000/disk@0
ultra1              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-4@1f000/disk@1
mac-io              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17
mpic                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/interrupt-controller
scca                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/escc/ch-a
sccb                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/escc/ch-b
ki2c                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c
ki2c-serial         /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c/cereal
via-pmu             /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu
rtc                 /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/rtc
pi2c                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/pmu-i2c
wireless            /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/@30000
usb2                /pci@f2000000/usb@1a
fans                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/pmu-pwm-fans
first-boot          /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk
second-boot         /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk
last-boot           /pci@f4000000/ethernet
screen              /pci@f0000000/ATY,RockHopper2Parent@10/ATY,RockHopper2_A@0
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on May 18, 2016, 04:30:08 AM
My guess is that we need to do the NVRAM modification that's noted on the ThinkClassic forums:
https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=4863#p4863

But even that didn't get them past the grey screen.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on May 18, 2016, 05:44:07 AM
Using my Beige G3 as the driver, I restored the MacOS9Lives disc onto the Mini's hard drive.  Then I booted into Open Firmware and enabled the debug output.  Then I ran "mac-boot" and WOW is that a lot of debug output.  It's captured here:

http://pastebin.com/GVKGjPaH
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on May 18, 2016, 08:54:52 AM
Wow indeed. It's getting pretty close.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on May 19, 2016, 04:42:13 AM
Tried a few things this morning:
* The modified Mac OS ROM from post 120 on this page: https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46&p=5
* The script to change processor version numbers from here: https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=4863#p4863
* Different flag values for the AAPL,debug property (trying to get more information)
* 'words': http://pastebin.com/tRhitb8U

But alas - still stuck at the grey OS 9 screen, just like the person in the second thinkclassic link above who tested their mini.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on May 19, 2016, 06:37:13 AM
Tried a few things this morning:
* The modified Mac OS ROM from post 120 on this page: https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46&p=5
* The script to change processor version numbers from here: https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=4863#p4863
* Different flag values for the AAPL,debug property (trying to get more information)
* 'words': http://pastebin.com/tRhitb8U

But alas - still stuck at the grey OS 9 screen, just like the person in the second thinkclassic link above who tested their mini.

The ROM I posted here http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2727.msg19816.html#msg19816
Is a modified version of the one you linked to, but it contains the scripts to update the processor version so you would not need to do that manually.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on May 21, 2016, 03:31:09 AM
The ROM I posted here http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2727.msg19816.html#msg19816
Is a modified version of the one you linked to, but it contains the scripts to update the processor version so you would not need to do that manually.

When I try to download the file from http://www.gnerder.com/files/rom.sit I get a 404 not found error.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on May 21, 2016, 08:18:04 PM
The ROM I posted here http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2727.msg19816.html#msg19816
Is a modified version of the one you linked to, but it contains the scripts to update the processor version so you would not need to do that manually.

When I try to download the file from http://www.gnerder.com/files/rom.sit I get a 404 not found error.

I'm sorry about that. it's working now.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on May 23, 2016, 05:56:47 AM
Thanks for fixing the link.

I tried that Mac OS ROM, and still didn't get past here:
Code: [Select]
parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on May 23, 2016, 06:18:43 AM
Thanks for fixing the link.

I tried that Mac OS ROM, and still didn't get past here:
Code: [Select]
parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>

I didn't think you would get any further, but it does make booting easier as you don't have to enter the commands to change the CPU version.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on June 23, 2016, 07:59:02 AM
Just got a mini in my hands.
Let's see where I can get with this.
It appears to have some graphics issues though.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on June 23, 2016, 11:17:51 AM
The mini is going to be the most difficult.  Just in case any one wants to know.

It get's through all hardware initialization without a hitch, until it actually loads the kernel.
Then boom. I haven't figured out exactly what it's hating on, as the kernel log dump isn't scrollable so it makes it a little hard to read the sequence leading up to the hang.

It looks like it hangs right before displaying the Happy Mac Logo


Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on June 23, 2016, 11:53:27 AM
As of right now it looks like it the pmu.

This is bad news if that's it.
The pmu used in the mini was use only in the mini and not in any other machine. 
There is a small possibility it is compatible with the via-pmu as was commonly used.  This is based on entries in open firmware.

Layout and interface wise the mini is closest to the eMac based on the block diagrams. Not that it helps, but it's something.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on June 23, 2016, 02:34:56 PM
I keep responding to myself.

PMU not the problem.
Looking at all properties now and the OS X xnu/applevia source it's compatible with the apple via drivers used in OS 9.

So I'm at a dead end until I am home from work in an hour.
Maybe more info tonight.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Bolkonskij on September 14, 2016, 10:35:03 AM
aw it's a pity this hasn't worked out yet. The Mac Minis are such nice machines still. Fast, quiet, flexible and small. It'd be awesome to have OS 9 running on them. I have one of the last gen (I think a 1.42 Ghz model) Mini, so if there some way for me to helping in terms of testing, I'll gladly volunteer .. :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on September 14, 2016, 11:30:36 AM
aw it's a pity this hasn't worked out yet. The Mac Minis are such nice machines still. Fast, quiet, flexible and small. It'd be awesome to have OS 9 running on them. I have one of the last gen (I think a 1.42 Ghz model) Mini, so if there some way for me to helping in terms of testing, I'll gladly volunteer .. :)

Don't lose hope.  Still in process.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Bolkonskij on September 18, 2016, 07:07:45 AM
Well, certainly crossing fingers! Would be awesome to boot back into OS 9 (and not Classic).

Let me know if I can help with some testing ...  :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: geforceg4 on September 18, 2016, 11:56:37 AM
i would LOVE to have mac os 9 on a PPC mac mini!
i could try to track down one and help out any way i can???
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on September 18, 2016, 07:55:36 PM
i would LOVE to have mac os 9 on a PPC mac mini!
i could try to track down one and help out any way i can???

Good news is that I have two of them at the moment and a third on the way so thankfully I have access to them now to work on them.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: geforceg4 on September 18, 2016, 09:07:36 PM
yea i cant imagine them being very expensive in this day + age
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on September 18, 2016, 09:36:51 PM
  I'm really only interested in buying one if I know it can be made to boot OS 9 and with adequate device support for enough of its critical guts.  Running OS X on it seems like a boring and underpowered waste of time! ;)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on September 19, 2016, 06:39:47 AM
yea i cant imagine them being very expensive in this day + age

A couple people I know like to give me old mac stuff for some reason (oldest I've gotten so far is a G3 PowerBook PDQ).
I even acquired an xserve 2.8 Quad core xeon with an xServe Raid (maxed out with all 14 spaces holding 750GB drives)
So none of the mini's have cost me anything yet.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on September 19, 2016, 11:57:24 AM
  Man, I wish I had friends like yours!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on September 23, 2016, 10:07:38 PM
Anybody in Western Australia got a spare mini? I'd quite like to try my Nanokernel-patching toolkit on one.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: wilcofan on September 21, 2017, 03:02:53 PM
Any news on OS9 and these G4 Mini's?  There's one locally here doesn't interest me if it's OSX only...
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: macStuff on September 21, 2017, 07:10:08 PM
the ppc mac mini?? its basically like an MDD in a smaller box minus the windtunnel + minus about 100lbs!!
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.42.html

lack of pci hardware compatibility kills my interest
i was pretty interested to see someone posting in another thread about using a tibook with a PCI expansion chassis that kind of blew my mind for a few minutes
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: wilcofan on September 21, 2017, 07:58:52 PM
Yep that's the one.  My tower could use a little help with a few vsti's and it wouldn't take up so much space.

Anybody get the install to work?  I am half tempted to grab it and try but I get the feeling it hasn't been solved.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: macStuff on September 21, 2017, 09:22:22 PM
pretty sure if it was solved we would all be well-aware of the big news.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on September 22, 2017, 07:02:40 AM
the ppc mac mini?? its basically like an MDD in a smaller box minus the windtunnel + minus about 100lbs!!
The PPC Mac Mini is basically an "iBook in a Box" ;D
Quote
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.42.html
You still trust this web ? LOL
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on September 22, 2017, 06:31:34 PM
I have at long long last reversed the 68k code that the mini crashes on. But I can't get my hands on one for a reasonable price to start testing. Does anyone in Australia have one that they could send my way?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Philgood on September 28, 2017, 12:34:22 AM
Get together !
ELN has to be helped! !!!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on September 30, 2017, 11:16:52 PM
While the Trampoline bootloader and the NanoKernel start just fine on the mini, the 68k Start Manager subsequently hangs. I want to know exactly where and why. Now Nanopico and I have successfully tested patching the 68k ROM to print some debug output via the NanoKernel window.

Here is a ROM with about 30 debug messages inserted into the StartMgr. Would a few people mind testing this on a mini and posting a photo of the debug output? No Open Firmware commands should be required. Just boot from a FireWire drive, or a Mac in Target Disk Mode.

For comparison, here some abridged NK log output from a booting Mac:
Code: [Select]
...
Reset system - Into the 68K fire: 0002d032 6806c9e8
 VMAllocateMemory - creating area at 0x69000000 00080000
 CreateArea [ 69000000 6907ffff ] ID 00170001 placed ... created
*68k: initGestalt
*68k: FiddleWithEmulator
*68k: InitIntHandler
*68k: InitRSRCMgr
*68k: INTERC_1690_CODEREGISTER
*68k: INTERC_15C0_CODEPREPARE2
*68k: EXPANSIONBUSMGRFIRSTFUNC
Extend free pool: phys 0x7ff2d000  virt 0x00000000  count: 1
*68k: INTERC_2A80_ETHERPRINTFLIB
*68k: ENABLEONESECINTS
*68k: ENABLE60HZINTS
*68k: RSETKMAP
*68k: INTERC_2BC0_DEBUGPRINT
*68k: INITDEVICEDISPATCH
*68k: INITSCSIMGR
*68k: INITEXPANSIONMGR
*68k: INTERC_1980_DRIVERS
*68k: INITADB
*68k: INTERC_1910_USBFAMILYEXPERTLIB
*68k: INITBCSCREEN
*68k: TEGLOBALINIT
*68k: ENABLESLOTINTS
*68k: INITFASTERINVALS
*68k: INTERC_2780_FIREWIRE
*68k: INTERC_2A20_SCSITARGETMODE
*68k: INITSCSIBOOT
*68k: ATAMGR_5DAE0
*68k: ATAMGR_5DDE0
*68k: FINDSTARTUPDEVICE
...
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 01, 2017, 07:38:27 PM
Initial output from the latest ROM.
It does in fact require OF commands to boot

These may seem very familiar
Code: [Select]
dev /
" PowerMac 10,1" encode-string " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatibility" property

dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property

So here's the thing now. And this is probably going to put a huge wall in the way.
So going through this, I realized something and did some checking.
The one thing that the other G4 systems have that the mini does not is ADB.
Yes there are no physical connectors on anything past the B&W G3 but, they all have a virtual bus via the PMU that is mapped from the usb ports.  I have suspected the PMU in the mini (being the only one that is not used in any other G4) would be a problem.  The mini has no ADB emulation in it at all so the 68K emulator and other managers will choke because they will not be able to find it.  There was a reason the virtual bus was there and it was exactly to support anything older than OS X which does not require this.  The G5's will sit in the exact same position as well.
So ultimately the mini is the first system that was really OS X only. 
Now this doesn't mean we can't work around it, but we are now talking about firmware level virtual device drivers. 

So long story short, I wouldn't hold your breath on the mini (i have been wrong before so don't hold me to this) as it would probably be a while before there is any possibility that it could boot and run.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 02, 2017, 02:29:18 AM
The code being executed, sans hacky debug code: https://github.com/elliotnunn/mac-rom/blame/master/OS/StartMgr/StartInit.a (https://github.com/elliotnunn/mac-rom/blame/master/OS/StartMgr/StartInit.a)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on October 02, 2017, 03:48:22 AM
Later stages of boot can handle usb devices from pci cards not integrated with the PMU, right? What happens if we patch the ADB manager to always report that there are 0 adb devices connected?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 02, 2017, 01:27:04 PM
Later stages of boot can handle usb devices from pci cards not integrated with the PMU, right? What happens if we patch the ADB manager to always report that there are 0 adb devices connected?

Yes and no.
No devices are required to be present, but the bus is expected to be.
I believe (and I could be very wrong on this one) the ADB manager would also need to be patched to not check for the bus and implement a sudo/virtual bus.  There would be the Start Manager as well which is apparently checking for the bus.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on October 02, 2017, 06:20:54 PM
Looking at the code, the routine InitADB (in ADBMgr.a ) loads a routine from the function table ProductInfo.ADBDebugUtilPtr. The ProductInfo structure appears to contain important info that can vary between machines. So we would have to look at the ADB routines for a few machines to write do-nothing versions of all relevent routines. Then we can create a ProductInfo structure for the Mac Mini (and possibly other machines).

Does the 9serve have ADB? I see no reason why Apple would put ADB emulation in it.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 02, 2017, 07:32:12 PM
Looking at the code, the routine InitADB (in ADBMgr.a ) loads a routine from the function table ProductInfo.ADBDebugUtilPtr. The ProductInfo structure appears to contain important info that can vary between machines. So we would have to look at the ADB routines for a few machines to write do-nothing versions of all relevent routines. Then we can create a ProductInfo structure for the Mac Mini (and possibly other machines).

Does the 9serve have ADB? I see no reason why Apple would put ADB emulation in it.

I'm thinking along the same line so we are on the same page.
The other machines all use a PMU that is used in at least one supported machine. So it wouldn't be a matter of adding it if it's not needed. It's just a mater of using the same chip.
The interesting thing is that i have not seen the mini's PMU used in anything else.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on October 03, 2017, 08:35:58 PM
Does the 9serve have ADB? I see no reason why Apple would put ADB emulation in it.

  Is there any way I can test for this on mine?  There may be a chance it was part of the Rev.1 motherboard and left out of the subsequent revisions.  I can at least check the Rev.1 for you.  The working theory in discussion here suggests that it would have it since it will boot OS 9 with minor help.  (I still remain suspicious that the Rev.1 machine had the FW800 parts omitted from the component pads as part of a halted plan to support OS9.  We'll probably never know for sure.  There's so little that doesn't work on OS 9 with it.  You may have read my recent post about the serial port - http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3902.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3902.0.html))
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on October 04, 2017, 03:47:06 AM
Does the 9serve have ADB? I see no reason why Apple would put ADB emulation in it.

  Is there any way I can test for this on mine?  There may be a chance it was part of the Rev.1 motherboard and left out of the subsequent revisions.  I can at least check the Rev.1 for you.  The working theory in discussion here suggests that it would have it since it will boot OS 9 with minor help.  (I still remain suspicious that the Rev.1 machine had the FW800 parts omitted from the component pads as part of a halted plan to support OS9.  We'll probably never know for sure.  There's so little that doesn't work on OS 9 with it.  You may have read my recent post about the serial port - http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3902.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3902.0.html))
Probably not. I have no clue how to check the type of PMU and what firmware is on it.

As for designing it to work with OS 9, that could be why they didn't use a new PMU chip. After they decided OS9 shouldn't work on it they probably just kept the same PMU.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 04, 2017, 06:05:31 AM
Does the 9serve have ADB? I see no reason why Apple would put ADB emulation in it.

  Is there any way I can test for this on mine?  There may be a chance it was part of the Rev.1 motherboard and left out of the subsequent revisions.  I can at least check the Rev.1 for you.  The working theory in discussion here suggests that it would have it since it will boot OS 9 with minor help.  (I still remain suspicious that the Rev.1 machine had the FW800 parts omitted from the component pads as part of a halted plan to support OS9.  We'll probably never know for sure.  There's so little that doesn't work on OS 9 with it.  You may have read my recent post about the serial port - http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3902.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3902.0.html))
Probably not. I have no clue how to check the type of PMU and what firmware is on it.

As for designing it to work with OS 9, that could be why they didn't use a new PMU chip. After they decided OS9 shouldn't work on it they probably just kept the same PMU.

Apple's tech notes and developer documentation outlines chips used on all the PPC machines (well almost all of them).
I had create a spreadsheet that outlined all of this. I can't find the thread/post regarding that. (Hint if anyone else can find it can you post a link?)
So know the chips used in all the machines is fairly easy.

As for determining which one.
Go into open firmware and list all the devices.  In there you will see a virtual bus (I can't remember the name off the top of my head). I did just check the iMac I have here at work and it does not list it, but it does list a pseudo-hid with the same devices I saw in the virtual bus.  So you can look for both of those.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 04, 2017, 07:03:03 AM
Looking for this?

https://github.com/elliotnunn/toolboxtoolbox/wiki/Custom-IC-Chips-Used-in-G3's-and-G4's (https://github.com/elliotnunn/toolboxtoolbox/wiki/Custom-IC-Chips-Used-in-G3's-and-G4's)

Anyone keen to test this ROM build out? It will tell us where the mini is crashing with better resolution than before. I want to know this before I take a deep dive into the Expansion Bus Mgr. Some reference output:

Code: [Select]
Reset system - Into the 68K fire: 0002d032 6806c9e8
 VMAllocateMemory - creating area at 0x69000000 00080000
 CreateArea [ 69000000 6907ffff ] ID 00170001 placed ... created
*68k: EXPANSIONBUSMGRFIRSTFUNC
*68k: InterC_2560
*68k: InterC_2090_PowerMgr
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on October 04, 2017, 07:11:46 AM
The complete OF device tree for the Xserve Rev.1 can be viewed in an older post of mine here:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1964.msg20383.html#msg20383 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1964.msg20383.html#msg20383)

The block diagram shown in the following post indicates PMU99, same as every other G4 machine in ELN's linked table:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1964.msg9985.html#msg9985 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1964.msg9985.html#msg9985)

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 04, 2017, 10:06:44 AM
Looking for this?

https://github.com/elliotnunn/toolboxtoolbox/wiki/Custom-IC-Chips-Used-in-G3's-and-G4's (https://github.com/elliotnunn/toolboxtoolbox/wiki/Custom-IC-Chips-Used-in-G3's-and-G4's)

Anyone keen to test this ROM build out? It will tell us where the mini is crashing with better resolution than before. I want to know this before I take a deep dive into the Expansion Bus Mgr. Some reference output:

Code: [Select]
Reset system - Into the 68K fire: 0002d032 6806c9e8
 VMAllocateMemory - creating area at 0x69000000 00080000
 CreateArea [ 69000000 6907ffff ] ID 00170001 placed ... created
*68k: EXPANSIONBUSMGRFIRSTFUNC
*68k: InterC_2560
*68k: InterC_2090_PowerMgr

Yup that is the one I put together.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 04, 2017, 06:26:28 PM
Results. Fyi for those trying.
Uh ou still need to change the compatible property to boot.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 05, 2017, 05:15:51 AM
Oh darn. It is definitely hanging on EXPANSIONBUSMGRFIRSTFUNC (my name). I'll start poking into the Expansion Bus Mgr. Unfortunately, there is no "System 7.1" source to compare it to. But the ExpansionBusDispatch trap will be a good starting point.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 05, 2017, 06:21:15 AM
As I have two G4 mini's I'm more than willing to fuck with OpenFirmware on one and only one in the event I brick it like has happened in the past.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on October 05, 2017, 05:26:57 PM
The name Expansion Bus Mgr suggests that something is making some incorrect assumptions about pci.

How is it failing? Is it looping forever? Did it jump to an uninitialized pointer? Did it fall off the end of its code into another function? Did it notice a problem and abort? Those seem to be the most likely crash behaviors.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 06, 2017, 05:55:35 AM
I was equating Expansion Bus Mgr to the ADB Bus.  It's a made up name from ELN I believe.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 06, 2017, 10:06:49 PM
The Manager in question is definitely the Expansion Bus Manager. I named the function "FIRSTFUNC" only because it sits at the very start of the Manager code.

This morning I have identified about half of the external entry points to the Manager (all via the AAF3 ExpansionBusDispatch trap, so not from the Start Manger). Check the repo. But my disassembly of the "FIRSTFUNC" still looks like this:

Code: [Select]
                      EXPANSIONBUSMGRFIRSTFUNC:
42160  4E56 0000                 Link      A6, #$0
42164  4EBA 742A                 Jsr       (* + $742C)
42168  4EBA 5074                 Jsr       __g__EXPANSIONBUSMGR_VEC0110
4216C  4EBA 2E82                 Jsr       (* + $2E84)
42170  4E5E                      Unlk      A6
42172  4E75                      Rts

It calls three functions, all within the Expansion Bus Mgr. The use of otherwise-rare JSR instructions, and the superfluous LINK/UNLK pair, reveal this to be a compiled C function. Indeed, most of the Manager is in C.

Here is a brief overview of the three functions being called:

1. Offset $49590
2. Offset $471DE
3. Offset $44FF0
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 06, 2017, 10:34:08 PM
And here is a test ROM that squeezes debug strings between those three calls.

Expected output:

Code: [Select]
Reset system - Into the 68K fire: 0002d032 6806c9e8
 VMAllocateMemory - creating area at 0x69000000 00080000
 CreateArea [ 69000000 6907ffff ] ID 00170001 placed ... created
*68k: Entered fake FirstFunc
*68k: returned from 49590
*68k: returned from 471DE
*68k: returned from 44FF0 ... returning
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on October 07, 2017, 06:42:02 PM
Looking at Androda's debug output, these lines caught my eye:
Code: [Select]
-- Initializing ADB information.
---- Virtual (USB-emulated) ADB detected!
The device tree has a pseudo-hid node:
Code: [Select]
ff95c4f8: /pseudo-hid
ff95c5b0:   /keyboard
ff95cc30:   /mouse
ff95d0d8:   /eject-key
And the word list contains '_adb-ihandle'.
The following are the posts that contain or link to the info I used, in the order I used them.
Using my Beige G3 as the driver, I restored the MacOS9Lives disc onto the Mini's hard drive.  Then I booted into Open Firmware and enabled the debug output.  Then I ran "mac-boot" and WOW is that a lot of debug output.  It's captured here:

http://pastebin.com/GVKGjPaH
Specifying the entire path to the Mac OS ROM gave me different results:

Code: [Select]
0 > 5303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property  ok
0 > boot " cd:,\System Folder\Mac OS ROM:tbxi" load-size=2a8c4 adler32=639f2646

parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>

After these lines printed out, the OS X grey apple logo screen appeared and the Mini basically just hung there doing nothing.  No additional output appeared in the console.

I know the combo drive is good in the Mini because it can read discs without an issue.  I think the disc I burned is good as well, because all the expected contents show up when the disc is in the drive in the mini.  But my beige g3's DVD drive doesn't read the disc - maybe the drive is just too old now.

Other things of interest: the entire device tree
Code: [Select]
0 > dev /  ok
0 > ls
ff899330: /cpus
ff8995c0:   /PowerPC,G4@0
ff899a28:     /l2-cache
ff89aa80: /chosen
ff89ac20: /memory@0
ff89ae20: /openprom
ff89af80:   /client-services
ff89c1b0: /rom@ff800000
ff89c368:   /boot-rom@fff00000
ff89c560:   /macos
ff89c5f0: /options
ff89c680: /aliases
ff89e570: /packages
ff89e608:   /deblocker
ff89ef58:   /disk-label
ff89ffc0:   /obp-tftp
ff8aabb0:   /telnet
ff8ab460:   /mac-parts
ff8aea88:   /mac-files
ff8b1c20:   /hfs-plus-files
ff8b7330:   /fat-files
ff8bab08:   /iso-9660-files
ff8bb918:   /bootinfo-loader
ff8bd588:   /xcoff-loader
ff8be058:   /macho-loader
ff8c0ec0:   /pe-loader
ff8c18c8:   /elf-loader
ff8c3818:   /usb-hid-class
ff8c6380:   /usb-ms-class
ff8c90d0:   /usb-audio-class
ff936bd0:   /sbp2-disk
ff93a740:   /ata-disk
ff93cd08:   /atapi-disk
ff93f328:   /bootpath-search
ff945960:   /terminal-emulator
ff945a28: /firewire-disk-mode
ff95c4f8: /pseudo-hid
ff95c5b0:   /keyboard
ff95cc30:   /mouse
ff95d0d8:   /eject-key
ff95d4d0: /pseudo-sound
ff95d660: /multiboot
ff9727b8: /diagnostics
ff972850: /xmodem
ff975218: /nvram@fff04000
ff9768f8: /uni-n@f8000000
ff976ab0:   /hw-clock
ff978048:   /i2c@f8001000
ff978c48:     /cereal@1c0
ff979340: /pci@f0000000
ff9ce978:   /uni-north-agp@b
ff9cec40:   /ATY,RockHopper2Parent@10
ff9dd290:     /ATY,RockHopper2_A@0
ff97a508: /pci@f2000000
ff97c8e0:   /mac-io@17
ff97dd70:     /interrupt-controller@40000
ff97dfe8:     /gpio@50
ff97e5a8:       /modem-reset@1d
ff97e700:       /modem-power@1c
ff97e858:       /extint-gpio1@9
ff97ea38:       /programmer-switch@11
ff97efc0:       /gpio5@6f
ff97f140:       /gpio6@70
ff97f2c0:       /extint-gpio15@67
ff97f4b0:     /escc-legacy@12000
ff97f6d8:       /ch-a@12004
ff97f888:       /ch-b@12000
ff97fa38:     /escc@13000
ff97fc70:       /ch-a@13020
ff980880:       /ch-b@13000
ff9813e8:     /i2s@10000
ff9815d0:       /i2s-a@10000
ff981988:         /sound
ff9df600:       /i2s-b@11000
ff981af8:     /timer@15000
ff981ca0:     /via-pmu@16000
ff985500:       /pmu-i2c
ff9864f0:         /temp-monitor@190
ff986af8:           /local@0
ff986c90:           /remote@1
ff987230:       /rtc
ff987900:       /power-mgt
ff9dfd10:         /usb-power-mgt
ff987b40:       /pmu-pwm-fans
ff988078:         /fan
ff9882c0:     /i2c@18000
ff988ee8:       /cereal@1c0
ff9895e0:     /ata-3@20000
ff98c300:       /disk
ff99c0e0:   /usb@1a
ff9a4a00:   /usb@1b
ff9ad378:   /usb@1b,1
ff9de320:     /hub@1
ff9de5b8:       /keyboard@1
ff9de9e0:       /mouse@2
ff9b5cf0:   /usb@1b,2
ff97b708: /pci@f4000000
ff9b6178:   /ata-6@d
ff9b9360:     /disk
ff9b99c8:   /firewire@e
ff9c90a0:   /ethernet@f
ff9dfe60:     /ethernet-phy ok

And all the aliases for hardware:  apparently the graphics card is called a 'RockHopper'??

Code: [Select]
0 > devalias
pci0                /pci@f0000000
agp                 /pci@f0000000
pci1                /pci@f2000000
pci2                /pci@f4000000
uni-n               /uni-n
ui2c                /uni-n/i2c
ui2c-serial         /uni-n/i2c/cereal
keyboard            /pseudo-hid/keyboard
mouse               /pseudo-hid/mouse
sound               /pseudo-sound
eject-key           /pseudo-hid/eject-key
nvram               /nvram
enet                /pci@f4000000/ethernet
fw                  /pci@f4000000/firewire
cpu0                /cpus/@0
cpu1                /cpus/@1
pci                 /pci@f2000000
usb0                /pci@f2000000/usb@1b,1
usb1                /pci@f2000000/usb@1b
usb-1a              /pci@f2000000/@18
usb-1b              /pci@f2000000/@19
usb-1c              /pci@f2000000/@1a
usb-2a              /pci@f2000000/@1b
usb-2b              /pci@f2000000/@1b,1
usb-2c              /pci@f2000000/@1b,2
hd                  /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk@0
cd                  /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk@1
ide0                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk@0
ide1                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk@1
ultra0              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-4@1f000/disk@0
ultra1              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-4@1f000/disk@1
mac-io              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17
mpic                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/interrupt-controller
scca                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/escc/ch-a
sccb                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/escc/ch-b
ki2c                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c
ki2c-serial         /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c/cereal
via-pmu             /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu
rtc                 /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/rtc
pi2c                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/pmu-i2c
wireless            /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/@30000
usb2                /pci@f2000000/usb@1a
fans                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/pmu-pwm-fans
first-boot          /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk
second-boot         /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk
last-boot           /pci@f4000000/ethernet
screen              /pci@f0000000/ATY,RockHopper2Parent@10/ATY,RockHopper2_A@0
Specifying the entire path to the Mac OS ROM gave me different results:

Code: [Select]
0 > 5303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property  ok
0 > boot " cd:,\System Folder\Mac OS ROM:tbxi" load-size=2a8c4 adler32=639f2646

parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>

After these lines printed out, the OS X grey apple logo screen appeared and the Mini basically just hung there doing nothing.  No additional output appeared in the console.

I know the combo drive is good in the Mini because it can read discs without an issue.  I think the disc I burned is good as well, because all the expected contents show up when the disc is in the drive in the mini.  But my beige g3's DVD drive doesn't read the disc - maybe the drive is just too old now.

Other things of interest: the entire device tree
Code: [Select]
0 > dev /  ok
0 > ls
ff899330: /cpus
ff8995c0:   /PowerPC,G4@0
ff899a28:     /l2-cache
ff89aa80: /chosen
ff89ac20: /memory@0
ff89ae20: /openprom
ff89af80:   /client-services
ff89c1b0: /rom@ff800000
ff89c368:   /boot-rom@fff00000
ff89c560:   /macos
ff89c5f0: /options
ff89c680: /aliases
ff89e570: /packages
ff89e608:   /deblocker
ff89ef58:   /disk-label
ff89ffc0:   /obp-tftp
ff8aabb0:   /telnet
ff8ab460:   /mac-parts
ff8aea88:   /mac-files
ff8b1c20:   /hfs-plus-files
ff8b7330:   /fat-files
ff8bab08:   /iso-9660-files
ff8bb918:   /bootinfo-loader
ff8bd588:   /xcoff-loader
ff8be058:   /macho-loader
ff8c0ec0:   /pe-loader
ff8c18c8:   /elf-loader
ff8c3818:   /usb-hid-class
ff8c6380:   /usb-ms-class
ff8c90d0:   /usb-audio-class
ff936bd0:   /sbp2-disk
ff93a740:   /ata-disk
ff93cd08:   /atapi-disk
ff93f328:   /bootpath-search
ff945960:   /terminal-emulator
ff945a28: /firewire-disk-mode
ff95c4f8: /pseudo-hid
ff95c5b0:   /keyboard
ff95cc30:   /mouse
ff95d0d8:   /eject-key
ff95d4d0: /pseudo-sound
ff95d660: /multiboot
ff9727b8: /diagnostics
ff972850: /xmodem
ff975218: /nvram@fff04000
ff9768f8: /uni-n@f8000000
ff976ab0:   /hw-clock
ff978048:   /i2c@f8001000
ff978c48:     /cereal@1c0
ff979340: /pci@f0000000
ff9ce978:   /uni-north-agp@b
ff9cec40:   /ATY,RockHopper2Parent@10
ff9dd290:     /ATY,RockHopper2_A@0
ff97a508: /pci@f2000000
ff97c8e0:   /mac-io@17
ff97dd70:     /interrupt-controller@40000
ff97dfe8:     /gpio@50
ff97e5a8:       /modem-reset@1d
ff97e700:       /modem-power@1c
ff97e858:       /extint-gpio1@9
ff97ea38:       /programmer-switch@11
ff97efc0:       /gpio5@6f
ff97f140:       /gpio6@70
ff97f2c0:       /extint-gpio15@67
ff97f4b0:     /escc-legacy@12000
ff97f6d8:       /ch-a@12004
ff97f888:       /ch-b@12000
ff97fa38:     /escc@13000
ff97fc70:       /ch-a@13020
ff980880:       /ch-b@13000
ff9813e8:     /i2s@10000
ff9815d0:       /i2s-a@10000
ff981988:         /sound
ff9df600:       /i2s-b@11000
ff981af8:     /timer@15000
ff981ca0:     /via-pmu@16000
ff985500:       /pmu-i2c
ff9864f0:         /temp-monitor@190
ff986af8:           /local@0
ff986c90:           /remote@1
ff987230:       /rtc
ff987900:       /power-mgt
ff9dfd10:         /usb-power-mgt
ff987b40:       /pmu-pwm-fans
ff988078:         /fan
ff9882c0:     /i2c@18000
ff988ee8:       /cereal@1c0
ff9895e0:     /ata-3@20000
ff98c300:       /disk
ff99c0e0:   /usb@1a
ff9a4a00:   /usb@1b
ff9ad378:   /usb@1b,1
ff9de320:     /hub@1
ff9de5b8:       /keyboard@1
ff9de9e0:       /mouse@2
ff9b5cf0:   /usb@1b,2
ff97b708: /pci@f4000000
ff9b6178:   /ata-6@d
ff9b9360:     /disk
ff9b99c8:   /firewire@e
ff9c90a0:   /ethernet@f
ff9dfe60:     /ethernet-phy ok

And all the aliases for hardware:  apparently the graphics card is called a 'RockHopper'??

Code: [Select]
0 > devalias
pci0                /pci@f0000000
agp                 /pci@f0000000
pci1                /pci@f2000000
pci2                /pci@f4000000
uni-n               /uni-n
ui2c                /uni-n/i2c
ui2c-serial         /uni-n/i2c/cereal
keyboard            /pseudo-hid/keyboard
mouse               /pseudo-hid/mouse
sound               /pseudo-sound
eject-key           /pseudo-hid/eject-key
nvram               /nvram
enet                /pci@f4000000/ethernet
fw                  /pci@f4000000/firewire
cpu0                /cpus/@0
cpu1                /cpus/@1
pci                 /pci@f2000000
usb0                /pci@f2000000/usb@1b,1
usb1                /pci@f2000000/usb@1b
usb-1a              /pci@f2000000/@18
usb-1b              /pci@f2000000/@19
usb-1c              /pci@f2000000/@1a
usb-2a              /pci@f2000000/@1b
usb-2b              /pci@f2000000/@1b,1
usb-2c              /pci@f2000000/@1b,2
hd                  /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk@0
cd                  /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk@1
ide0                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk@0
ide1                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk@1
ultra0              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-4@1f000/disk@0
ultra1              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-4@1f000/disk@1
mac-io              /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17
mpic                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/interrupt-controller
scca                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/escc/ch-a
sccb                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/escc/ch-b
ki2c                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c
ki2c-serial         /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c/cereal
via-pmu             /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu
rtc                 /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/rtc
pi2c                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/pmu-i2c
wireless            /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/@30000
usb2                /pci@f2000000/usb@1a
fans                /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu/pmu-pwm-fans
first-boot          /pci@f4000000/ata-6@d/disk
second-boot         /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-3@20000/disk
last-boot           /pci@f4000000/ethernet
screen              /pci@f0000000/ATY,RockHopper2Parent@10/ATY,RockHopper2_A@0
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 10, 2017, 06:19:14 PM
And here is a test ROM that squeezes debug strings between those three calls.
Code: [Select]

Anyone able to try it?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 19, 2017, 02:54:00 AM
Bumpity bump. We're making some progress here but we need testers!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Philgood on October 19, 2017, 01:23:06 PM
I have a mini Mac at work. Will try to help you.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 25, 2017, 07:41:49 PM
Any luck? I posted a ROM a few weeks ago that still hasn't been tested.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Philgood on October 26, 2017, 04:34:33 AM
Can you guide me a little bit how i can do that?
I have a mini mac at work and could bring another mac laptop if its needed for the remote console output.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 26, 2017, 05:57:03 AM
Can you guide me a little bit how i can do that?
I have an mini mac at work and could bring another mac laptop if its needed for the remote console output.

Have a second Mac that can boot OS 9.
Start the mini in target disc mode.
Connect to second mac.
Download this http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2143.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2143.0.html) and run from the second Mac, but use the mini's disc as the install location.
Remove the installed ROM from the mini and replace with the special one provided here.
Reboot the mini into open firmware.
I don't know if all the right OF commands are in this ROM to enable boot so you might need to change the compatibility property at the root of the device tree and the cpu version in the cpu node of the device tree.
Then just type boot.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 26, 2017, 05:58:36 AM
Any luck? I posted a ROM a few weeks ago that still hasn't been tested.

Sorry I have not gotten to this either.  Been too busy making a totally awesome TRON costume for my son.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Philgood on October 26, 2017, 02:30:26 PM
Will this render the OS installation unusable afterwards?
Is there a way to reinstall the original ROM after I did that ?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on October 26, 2017, 03:27:15 PM
Everything will be fine. Neither the mac mini nor the system you use to install os9 will be affected by this meddling. As long as you don't mess with the nvram, all changes will be easily reversible.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on October 27, 2017, 06:51:25 AM
Will this render the OS installation unusable afterwards?
Is there a way to reinstall the original ROM after I did that ?

Actually it depends on the format of the drive.  The drive will need to be formatted with OS 9 drivers, which it probably doesn't so you would have to reformat.
And which original ROM are you asking about? The OS 9 one which will not work at all?

But yes it is not permanent.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on October 27, 2017, 09:59:13 PM
I could also help with testing, but I don't really want to do anything that could possibly brick it. (I don't have the money to buy a new one, I'm just a broke teenager ::))
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on October 28, 2017, 12:54:47 AM
Don’t worry, this absolutely won’t brick it.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Philgood on October 28, 2017, 09:10:06 AM
Will this render the OS installation unusable afterwards?
Is there a way to reinstall the original ROM after I did that ?

Actually it depends on the format of the drive.  The drive will need to be formatted with OS 9 drivers, which it probably doesn't so you would have to reformat.
And which original ROM are you asking about? The OS 9 one which will not work at all?

But yes it is not permanent.

You're absolutely right. There is no ROM...my bad. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on November 06, 2017, 05:06:38 AM
Interestingly, QEMU boots quite happily with FIRSTFUNC nopped out completely. But before we try that on the mini, could somebody please please please try that Mac OS ROM file that I recently posted?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: tooloudtoowide on December 01, 2017, 05:42:10 AM
hi, I have next to me MacMini 1.42 with Restore OSX 10.4 and of course Classic enviroment for 9.2.2. 

What will be steps to test/hack it to be able to boot in MacOS9? Anyone got success on MacMini?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on December 01, 2017, 07:21:18 AM
hi, I have next to me MacMini 1.42 with Restore OSX 10.4 and of course Classic enviroment for 9.2.2. 

What will be steps to test/hack it to be able to boot in MacOS9? Anyone got success on MacMini?

Start the mini in target disk mode.  Connect it to a mac that supports OS 9 and boot into that.
Format the mini's disk with the OS 9 drivers.  This will erase everything on the disk.
Do an install of OS 9 with the target being the mini.
Copy ELN's ROM over the existing ROM on the mini.
Reboot the mini.

I assume the ROM posted has the CPU version added and compatible machine check code removed to get it to boot.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: tooloudtoowide on December 01, 2017, 08:34:26 AM
thx, will do it and will back with results :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on December 01, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
hi, I have next to me MacMini 1.42 with Restore OSX 10.4 and of course Classic enviroment for 9.2.2. 

What will be steps to test/hack it to be able to boot in MacOS9? Anyone got success on MacMini?

Start the mini in target disk mode.  Connect it to a mac that supports OS 9 and boot into that.
Format the mini's disk with the OS 9 drivers.  This will erase everything on the disk.
Do an install of OS 9 with the target being the mini.
Copy ELN's ROM over the existing ROM on the mini.
Reboot the mini.

I assume the ROM posted has the CPU version added and compatible machine check code removed to get it to boot.


Wait, is this going to actually boot it? Or is this just a test?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 01, 2017, 06:24:12 PM
It’ll freeze, but the log messages I’ve added will tell us where.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on December 02, 2017, 11:42:06 AM
It’ll freeze, but the log messages I’ve added will tell us where.

Ok, I guess I'll try that too. I'll have to image backup the Mini first because I've got a lot of games and stuff installed.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on December 02, 2017, 11:55:49 AM
Enjoy
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on December 02, 2017, 12:05:59 PM
Also to boot you do need to set the compatible property in open firmware.
If you don't know, I'll put it here so you don't have to go searching.

Hold command option o f during the start up.
When you get to the prompt type the following.

Code: [Select]
dev /
" MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
boot
That is all that is needed..
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on December 02, 2017, 12:12:53 PM
Also to boot you do need to set the compatible property in open firmware.
If you don't know, I'll put it here so you don't have to go searching.

Hold command option o f during the start up.
When you get to the prompt type the following.

Code: [Select]
dev /
" MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
boot
That is all that is needed..

Do I need to do this every time I reboot? Or does it save in the NVRAM or something?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on December 02, 2017, 01:07:09 PM
That particular method of doing it needs to be entered every boot. There are ways of sticking it in the NVRAM.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 02, 2017, 07:26:57 PM
Thanks for the test, nanopico. And thanks to the other people who have checked in.

Well, I made a mistake here. The function at the start of the Expansion Bus Manager is not crashing. Actually, the crash happens just after that function returns, when moving the stack.

Code: [Select]
            BSR.L   CompBootStackOld
            MOVE.L  A0,SP
            SUBA.W  #BootStackSize,A0
            _SetApplLimit

This is the second time that StartInit moves the stack and sizes the system heap zone (in earlier ROM versions it was done only once). The CompBootStack function got split into two cases. This is my interpretation of that function:

Code: [Select]
;________________________________________________________________________________________
;
; Routine:  CompBootStack 5fa
;
; Inputs:   none
;
; Outputs:  A0  -   location of stack pointer at boot time
;
; Trashes:  D0
;
; Function: computes the boot time stack pointer = sysZone + (BufPtr-sysZone)/2 - space for QD
;________________________________________________________________________________________

CompBootStack
            btst    #$06,$240B
            beq.s   CompBootStackOld
            move.l  #$007EFFE0,A0                   ; 8 M - 64 K - 32 b
            rts

CompBootStackOld
            move.l  BufPtr,d0                       ; get top useable memory
            move.l  sysZone,a0                      ; get start system heap
            sub.l   a0,d0                           ; get (top useable - sys heap start)
            lsr.l   #1,d0                           ; divide by two
            add.l   a0,d0                           ; get sys heap + (top - sysHeap)/2
            sub.w   #BootGlobalsSize,d0             ; leave room for QuickDraw stuff.
            andi.w  #$FFF0,d0                       ; force it to be even                                   <SM81>
            move.l  d0,a0
            rts

Here are two new ROMs to probe the crash site. The first just spams the NK log. The second does the same, while calling CompBootStack instead of CompBootStackOld. Both of these files have their COMPATIBLE field set properly, so you might find them a bit easier to run. Here is some reference output from QEMU with 1.75 GB RAM:

Code: [Select]
Reset system - Into the 68K fire: 0002d032 6806c9e8
 *68k: BufPtr = 5fffc000
 *68k: sysZone = 00002800
 *68k: About to call CompBootStackOld...
       ...which returned 2ffff000
 *68k: Now moving stack to there (eek)...
       ...which didnt crash.
 *68k: Now calling SetApplLimit...
       ...which returned successfully.
 *68k: Pushing on with InterC_2560 (no more log messages)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on December 03, 2017, 06:40:39 AM
Cool!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 09, 2017, 06:31:25 PM
Need testers, guys, or this won't go anywhere. I really think that the mini is going to work!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on December 09, 2017, 06:54:47 PM
  It's killing me that I don't have a Mini to help you out with - I'm getting tempted to buy one only for that reason!  It's my hope that anything learned from the Mini project can help with other issues we're having with various other models.  It sucks that if in the end it didn't succeed, I'd be stuck with just a mediocre OS X machine though.

  BTW, do you expect each variant of the G4 Mini to behave equally?  It was unclear to me from what I've read if there were any significant differences other than the speed.  I would prefer to have the fastest model in the series with the larger video DRAM if it doesn't make any other difference.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 09, 2017, 09:58:31 PM
I think that the 1.5 GHz "stealth upgrade" with the extra VRAM is just as likely to work as the other models.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 14, 2017, 05:15:57 AM
Tested with both of the ROMs posted above: mini-stack-log-rom.hqx, and mini-stack-patch-rom.hqx

https://imgur.com/a/fX9PE

Sadly, no booting.  But the nanoKernel log output is there.

No useful information was tranferred over the debug telnet socket which I opened just in case.  Both times, this is what was printed out:
Quote
parsing <CHRP-BOOT>

evaluating <BOOT-SCRIPT>

Loading ELF
AAPL,debug bit settings (-OR- bits together):
       1   = Print general informative messages.
       2   = Print formatted Mac OS tables (except config/universal info).
       4   = Print formatted config info table.
       8   = Dump Mac OS tables (except config/universal info).
      10   = Print node names while copying the device tree.
      20   = Print property info while copying the device tree.
      40   = Print interrupt-related info.
      80   = Print interrupt tree traversal info.
     100   = Print address resolution info.
     200   = Print NV-RAM info.
     400   = Print Mac OS "universal" info.
     800   = Print "special" node info.
    1000   = Load EtherPrintf utility via parcel for post FCode debugging.
    2000   = Print BOOTP/DHCP/BSDP information.
    4000   = Allocate writable ROM aperture.
    8000   = Mark Toolbox image as non-cacheable.
   10000   = Print parcel info while copying the device tree.
   20000   = Print information on device tree data checksums.
 1000000   = Enable the Nanokernel debugger.
 2000000 * = Display the Nanokernel log during boot.
10000000   = Dont attempt to unhibernate system.
40000000   = Halt after end of FCode (useful if outputting to screen).

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 15, 2017, 02:51:52 AM
Darn. Sorry, I’ve had all sorts of trouble producing a boot script that supports all machines. Nanopico, could you help Androda out?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on December 15, 2017, 06:00:15 AM
Darn. Sorry, I’ve had all sorts of trouble producing a boot script that supports all machines. Nanopico, could you help Androda out?
Sure....

I'm not seeing an issue based on what was posted.

androda are you having any issues booting?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 15, 2017, 11:26:44 AM
I thought the point of running those ROMs was to look at the nanokernel logs.

In both cases, the mini did not boot into OS 9.  It just stopped after printing out those lines to the display. I let it sit for several minutes with no continued booting.

If I've misunderstood something about those ROMs, let me know what I can try next.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on December 15, 2017, 07:23:34 PM
No full boot at the moment.
The image you posted has the output so it was "technically" booting.  BUt crashing hard early on.  This is what we need to get past.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on December 15, 2017, 07:50:58 PM
nanopico's 666 post!

 ;D

The number of the beast!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfrENoTJdo4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfrENoTJdo4)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: FdB on December 15, 2017, 10:40:05 PM
Sacré bleu!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVExlaxaweo
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 15, 2017, 11:09:30 PM
Sorry guys, I’ve been vague. Nano, can you tell androda how to change the CPU version and compatible fields? Then the machine will boot to the point of showing a log on screen, like Nano’s previous posts.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 16, 2017, 06:03:00 AM
ELN, are these the sequence of commands you're talking about?

I tried both of these settings:
Code: [Select]
" MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

Code: [Select]
" PowerMac 10,1" encode-string " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatibility" property

Notably, these use different names for the property.  One of them uses " compatible" and other one uses " compatibility".  Which one is correct?

Code: [Select]
dev /
<compatibility property from the above two options>

dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
boot

I ran these commands in Open Firmware

mini-stack-log-rom.hqx : Frozen at the same place as before

mini-stack-patch-rom.hqx : Frozen at the same place as before
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on December 17, 2017, 07:27:37 AM
ELN, are these the sequence of commands you're talking about?

I tried both of these settings:
Code: [Select]
" MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

Code: [Select]
" PowerMac 10,1" encode-string " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatibility" property

Notably, these use different names for the property.  One of them uses " compatible" and other one uses " compatibility".  Which one is correct?

Code: [Select]
dev /
<compatibility property from the above two options>

dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
boot

I ran these commands in Open Firmware

mini-stack-log-rom.hqx : Frozen at the same place as before

mini-stack-patch-rom.hqx : Frozen at the same place as before

compatible is the correct one. When you say it freezes, it's at the same point as what is in your picture? 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 17, 2017, 01:52:15 PM
Yes, frozen after 'Pushing on with InterC_2560 (no more log messages)'
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 17, 2017, 09:11:27 PM
May we have pictures or both ROMs? I packed in a few useful stack-related log messages.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 18, 2017, 04:56:53 AM
This imgur link is where I posted the images of the debug output:

https://imgur.com/a/fX9PE
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 18, 2017, 06:42:01 AM
Looking for this?

https://github.com/elliotnunn/toolboxtoolbox/wiki/Custom-IC-Chips-Used-in-G3's-and-G4's (https://github.com/elliotnunn/toolboxtoolbox/wiki/Custom-IC-Chips-Used-in-G3's-and-G4's)

Anyone keen to test this ROM build out? It will tell us where the mini is crashing with better resolution than before. I want to know this before I take a deep dive into the Expansion Bus Mgr. Some reference output:

Code: [Select]
Reset system - Into the 68K fire: 0002d032 6806c9e8
 VMAllocateMemory - creating area at 0x69000000 00080000
 CreateArea [ 69000000 6907ffff ] ID 00170001 placed ... created
*68k: EXPANSIONBUSMGRFIRSTFUNC
*68k: InterC_2560
*68k: InterC_2090_PowerMgr

Thanks, Androda. That is actually a mysterious result, considering where Nanopico’S crash occurred. Mind running this one I built a few months ago?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on December 18, 2017, 06:45:29 AM
I haven't gotten to the latest ROM's you built yet.  Come this weekend I am off work for two weeks so I will be able to put a little time into this (and a few other things I think I promised others on here).
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 19, 2017, 05:57:33 AM
Tried ELN's 'Detailed mini rom' file from that post, and this is the result on screen:
https://imgur.com/a/dxwqU

Then I realized I hadn't changed the compatible property or opened a telnet debug socket, so I started again and ran these commands in open firmware:
Code: [Select]
dev /
 " MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
dev /
1303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property
dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
boot

Changing the debug property to '1303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property' removes the 'stop at end of fcode' (I want the system to keep trying to boot, of course).  Here's the debug output after that:
https://pastebin.com/4AtK1xp9

The imgur link above contains both attempts.  First, without debug properties set, and second with them set.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on December 19, 2017, 09:57:35 AM
  As with the Xserve, there is a lot of seemingly successful hardware enumeration/initialization going on, but it would appear the sound device is unknown to OS 9:

Code: [Select]
-- Initializing Sound information.
---- No Sound (of some sort) detected!

  I'm not sure from what it's actually hanging on though.  Very interesting to see that whole massive device table all listed out.  What it made it through looks surprisingly error-free.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 19, 2017, 05:21:05 PM
Androda, your mini has me feeling quite confused. It flies through all my debug code with nary a care. I will produce another ROM for you to test soon.

I have read through the trampoline log. It is likely that whatever problem we identify in 68k code, there will be corresponding complaints from the trampoline.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on December 20, 2017, 03:39:52 AM
Perhaps we should patch the 68k emulator to keep saving the instruction address somewhere and have a MPTask that prints the value if it hasn't changed in a while?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 20, 2017, 10:43:23 AM
How are you making these changes to the ROM files, ELN? Do you have a development environment set up to make the ROMs? Or are you using some PPC/68k disassembler/re-assembler?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on December 20, 2017, 01:44:54 PM
The ROM files are in several Github repositories. They are built using MPW. ELN builds the custom ROMs by making a branch on the repository and modifying the source code on that branch. There are branches called minitest, minitest2, and minitest3, in addition to the master branch.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 20, 2017, 06:11:32 PM
Are they public GitHub repos? I'd like to take a look if they are.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on December 20, 2017, 06:48:05 PM
Here you go: https://github.com/elliotnunn?tab=repositories (https://github.com/elliotnunn?tab=repositories). mac-rom is the 68k rom code. powermac-rom is the NK, 68k emulator, and NewWorld stuff such as boot scripts and the Trampoline. wedge is the custom c code ELN made that sits between the Trampoline and the NK. empw is ELN's custom tool to do MPW builds on modern machines. The other repos are obsolete and/or not relevent to booting a Mac Mini.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on December 21, 2017, 11:54:22 PM
I feel like my dirty laundry has been aired in public. ::)

The only thing I'd add is that the powermac-rom repo does not build the NewWorld boot image, only a 4 MB Power Mac ROM. I am currently using my crusty old Python scripts to do this. I will try to move this over to an MPW-based solution, perhaps borrowing from our abandoned CDG5 code on GitLab.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on December 28, 2017, 05:47:21 PM
Damn, I came here eager to try out all this and hopefully be of some help with my newly-acquired PPC Mac Mini 1.5GHz, only to see I missed this key part in bold letters:

Can you guide me a little bit how i can do that?
I have an mini mac at work and could bring another mac laptop if its needed for the remote console output.

Have a second Mac that can boot OS 9.
Start the mini in target disc mode.
Connect to second mac.

Download this http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2143.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2143.0.html) and run from the second Mac, but use the mini's disc as the install location.
Remove the installed ROM from the mini and replace with the special one provided here.
Reboot the mini into open firmware.
I don't know if all the right OF commands are in this ROM to enable boot so you might need to change the compatibility property at the root of the device tree and the cpu version in the cpu node of the device tree.
Then just type boot.

The problem I have is, while I do have 2 Macs that can run Mac OS 9, neither of them have FireWire 400 (or even 800): one is a PowerBook Wallstreet G3 266MHz (which lacks even USB), and the other one is an iMac G3 333MHz that only has USB 1.0 connectors.
Aside them and the Mini, my only other Mac is the G5 Quad-Core, so...

I tried checking if there were ways to somehow use Target Disk Mode with just USB, but apparently not. (Only booting directly from USB (http://www.mediacaster.nl/usb_boot_imac_powerpc_g5.html) seems to be possible, but that's not enough.)

I will see if I can borrow a Firewire and Mac-OS-9-capable Mac from a local shop (or order a PC Card with Firewire for the Wallstreet), but until then, I'm sorry to let you guys (ELN and Nanopico especially) down on this one for now. :/
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 29, 2017, 10:41:07 AM
I've found that wallstreets are just so hard to interface with modem systems now, given they lack even USB.

Another idea would be to use one of those cd-bay-to-hard-drive adapters. Take the mini apart, pull the hard drive out, stick that into the wallstreet in the CD bay adapter, and then do the install and file copying. G4 minis use the same kind of hard drive as a wallstreet (I think).

Of course, this is harder than getting one of those FireWire cards for the laptop and just using that. But it's at least another option if you can't find a compatible card.

I'm lucky to have my old beige g3 with a FireWire card.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on December 29, 2017, 11:11:04 AM
Yeah, taking the Mini apart... I considered that as soon as I was done with my previous post, although I shiver at the thought of doing that again, because the screws that are still left in it (many are missing) are really almost losing their "grip-ability" due to how worn out the screw heads of each screw are, and also because I lack some screwdrivers & other tools that are more proper to reach the Mini's hard disk, meaning the Mini gets damaged each time I do this. I had to replace its hard drive before to see if the Mini was even functional (it was a risky purchase that thankfully worked out), so that's why I know.

By the way, you are right; It's the same type of hard disk as the Wallstreet's: 2.5" Parallel ATA (PATA) / IDE.

And, really? PATA HDDs will just fit in the Wallstreet's CD slot? I did wonder before, but was never sure, nor ever felt the need to do that, but I guess I have a reason now. ;D
Still, I'll see if I can get ahold of an ExpressCard/PCCard with FireWire or borrow a FireWire Mac-OS-9-capable Mac first. But if it takes too long... *sigh* :D No other choice then!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on December 29, 2017, 11:33:23 AM
What I mean is that you should be able to get an adapter that will let you put one of those 2.5 inch ATA hard drives into the CD bay (or battery bay) of the wallstreet.  The expansion bays are both wired with ATA/IDE, just needs a shell to put the drive in (I think).  Don't try to just stick the hard drive in there or it might get broken!

Here's a card for your wallstreet on eBay which would probably work:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Apple-MacSense-FireWire-CardBus-PCMCIA-Card-FW-200-IEEE-1394/391739290931

Original manufacturer page:
http://www.macsense.com/product/usb/fw200.html
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on December 29, 2017, 03:25:04 PM
Oh, I certainly wouldn't ever simply force it in there, fear not. ;D If I was to even try to fit it in there without any adapters, I'd check a bunch of things first, like whether the number & order of pins match or not, and whether the drive would end up suspended mid-air or not, as it could damage the pins etc..

Thanks for the links! I'll definitely take a look. :) As well as this, which I have set my eyes on for a while now: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007T276O/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5

EDIT: Bought!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Astroman on December 30, 2017, 03:28:42 AM
just a hint because you mentioned 'only USB-1' further up:
there is no USB-2 in any MacOS 9 whatsoever, as there is no FW800 - no such drivers exist.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on January 01, 2018, 09:09:11 AM
@Jubadub

I hope that cardbus card works properly for you.  I was interested in getting something very much like that for my WallStreet several years ago, but couldn't find much in the way of compatibility information.  That's when I decided to just get a Pismo - and now I have two of them.  :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: tooloudtoowide on January 02, 2018, 01:40:24 AM
Need testers, guys, or this won't go anywhere. I really think that the mini is going to work!

sorry mate, Christmas and New Year holded me a little as I do in parellel some works with Apple //c and some Macintosh 68k to be working.

I have iMac G4-700 15" unfortunately with upgraded ROM during natural moves to 10.4 OSX, but at least it boots in modded Mac OS9 however I cannot boot into genuine Mac OS9 using CD that was included with this iMac... So the question is - does this iMac is good to make mentioned steps to format Macmini harddrive (partition) in firewire connection mode? cheers
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on January 02, 2018, 01:00:10 PM
I believe that any OS9 system with firewire is good enough. The worst what can reasonably be expected to happen is that the partition is not set up correctly (There is no theoretical upper bound to how bad a result can be, but even the install failing is pretty unlikely).
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 02, 2018, 03:03:31 PM
I've just bought a Mac mini G4! This will speed up testing a lot. Stay tuned for a new test file.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 04, 2018, 12:58:10 AM
Okay. I am now sure that the Power Manager contains the first code to freeze the machine.

The 68k StartInit code loads and initialises several PPC code fragments. One of the first is NativePowerMgr. This fragment is copied from a parcel to the device tree by the Trampoline. When StartInit calls its PMInitialize function, the machine freezes. It is possible to get further through the boot process by skipping this call, but without it the machine is sure to crash eventually.

So, now to reverse the Power Manager! Unfortunately this manager got a lot of changes with the introduction of the G4s and more sophisticated mobile power management. It might be a bit tricky. Daniel, want to give it a go?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 18, 2018, 09:33:38 AM
Call out to anyone with knowledge out there.
So the power manager is definitely a bottle neck and even more is communicating with it.
In short the mini uses uPMU where as all the other G4's use PMU99.
The mini is the only machine (including G5's) that uses the uPMU chip.
Now check this.
Those PowerBooks that we are able to boot, but have issues with power management?  Related.
They use PMU99, but they use Intrepid for the North Bridge and IO Controller just like the mini only their PMU is known.
So OS 9 knows nothing of Intrepid and worse get to the uPMU and it has no clue there either, thus the mini is in a sorry state.
So if any one has any low level details on Intrepid or uPMU please let us know. 
Getting support to Intrepid should allow all those PowerBooks to pretty much be completely working. Except for the last version of the PowerBook released (Intrepid 2 and PMU05).



Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: mrhappy on January 18, 2018, 09:35:41 PM
Don't know 'squat' about this so I can only be a 'cheerleader' however... I feel a breakthrough coming on!! Keep up the good work lads!!! ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on January 19, 2018, 12:30:11 PM
I have a PowerBook6,8 with 7447a v1.5( PRV 80030105 ), and I've been trying to get OS 9 to boot on it.

I'm assuming this is one of the last G4's that can't boot OS 9 at this time?

I was able to get the the OS 9 boot screen, but the system bombs out while it's loading. I removed everything from the Systems Folder but the Mac OS ROM, Finder, and System suitcase.

Just to make things a little easier, I used diskutil in Tiger to create a USB drive with OS 9 drivers.

Code: [Select]
diskutil  partitionDisk  /dev/disk1 1 OS9Drivers  HFS+  MacHD 0b
Then I copied a OS 9 System folder to the drive and blessed it with:

Code: [Select]
sudo bless -folder /path/to/your/os9/System Folder
I think that was the command, I'll have to check. We should be able to bless the drive with --setboot, but I haven't figured out the correct commands for that, yet.

Anyway, if I can help here, I will, and maybe we'll kill to non-9 booting Macs with one stone, as it were.

Sorry, forgot the boot command to boot a USB drive from Open Firmware.

Check the dev tree and see what port your usb drive is on, then dev alias to see the alias of the port.

For me, it usb0.

So:

Code: [Select]
boot usb0/disk:10,\\:tbxi


Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 19, 2018, 02:51:50 PM
I was able to get the the OS 9 boot screen, but the system bombs out while it's loading. I removed everything from the Systems Folder but the Mac OS ROM, Finder, and System suitcase.

And did it boot after removing everything?
there are instances where the built in audio device causes this.  Even with all extensions gone it will still load the Sound Manager and choke on the sound chip.  Can be worked around by removing the sound device node in the Open Firmware device tree.

Code: [Select]
boot usb0/disk:10,\\:tbxi

You can use this to also boot a non-blessed system folder  by providing the full path to the ROM file. 
I do this actually often to test things.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on January 19, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
Part of the initialization of TBXIs sets the bootpath property of the /chosen node to the path of the TBXI.
Mac OS 9 uses this to find the system folder. If you set this value right before you launch the Trampoline, you can make the system folder be wherever you want it.
I do this in my rom test partition so it always boots from the main system folder.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on January 19, 2018, 05:31:24 PM
I was able to get the the OS 9 boot screen, but the system bombs out while it's loading. I removed everything from the Systems Folder but the Mac OS ROM, Finder, and System suitcase.

And did it boot after removing everything?
there are instances where the built in audio device causes this.  Even with all extensions gone it will still load the Sound Manager and choke on the sound chip.  Can be worked around by removing the sound device node in the Open Firmware device tree.

Code: [Select]
boot usb0/disk:10,\\:tbxi



You can use this to also boot a non-blessed system folder  by providing the full path to the ROM file. 
I do this actually often to test things.

Seems to be bombing on a MoveL command, but I don't really know how to use MacsBugs, any tips?

I know OS 9 has a built in debugger, and others are using it, but isn't MacsBugs a litlle more powerfull?

Though it's not clear to me if the Mac Mini is getting out of the Mac OS Rom into the System Suitcase?

Seems I'm bombing it the suitcase, right, if I get to the loading screen, with the progress bar?

Not done any hacking on the classic OS in a while, so I need to brush up.

How do I remove the sound device from the tree?



Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on January 19, 2018, 05:39:13 PM
The loading screen is displayed way after the system suitcase takes control.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3233.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3233.0.html) tells you how to remove a device from the tree.
I am not exactly sure which device tree node is the sound device on a PowerBook.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on January 19, 2018, 07:33:24 PM
Thanks, i'll give it a shot, but here is a thought, why not fire up the IOReg Explorer that comes with the classic PCIDDK under Classic Mode in OS X, and see what IOReg OS X uses to boot Classic mode?

That may give us some ideas on how we need the device tree to look to get at least minimal support in OS 9 going.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 19, 2018, 09:04:44 PM
Some good ideas flying around this thread!

After several hours mucking around with Apple's PowerPC build tools, I have given up on fully reversing the the NativePowerMgr and other PEFs. Instead, I have produced this murderously hacky patching tool. Meet patchpef: https://github.com/elliotnunn/patchpef (https://github.com/elliotnunn/patchpef)

Patchpef makes small changes to the code section of a given PEF file, with all new code being inserted at the end of the section. It depends on vasm with the "mot" syntax module to assemble new code. Convenience functions are provided to spam the NanoKernel log. Here is the command line for my current patchset:

Code: [Select]
./patchpef.py CodeRegister_NativePowerMgrLib{,_patched} Initialize+0x168 :SysErroring InitPostLoadPlugin-0x4 :r3 Initialize+0xe8 :r31 PMPluginInitialize-0x4 :r3 FindPluginDevice-0x4 :r3 Initialize+0x94 ' li r3,0' Initialize-0x4 :returning
Briefly, the syntax is:
Code: [Select]
patchpef.py INPUT OUTPUT [ LOCATION_1 COMMAND_1 ... ]
Locations are relative either to the start of the end of a function. (Functions, by the way, can be identified only if MacsBug symbols are present. Exported symbols are no help.) For most C functions, "FuncName-0x4" will allow you to log the function return (before the blr). Using ":r3" as the command will log the return value. Otherwise, any arbitrary string can be logged by prepending the argument with a colon.

These convenience commands take care of register saving for you (r0-r31 and the LR are saved in the "red zone" below the stack pointer). But you can also supply arbitrary assembly code in Apple-like syntax. (Don't forget the leading whitespace!) "nopNNN" is another special case – it removes code, rather than inserting.

So far, I have managed to disable loading the PowerMgr plugin from the device tree. This advances the mini's boot process significantly, and should not cause any problems later in the boot process.

Progress!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 21, 2018, 09:22:21 PM
The NanoKernel log disappears when the Display Mgr is initialised. This is because the Display Mgr blanks the screen with 50% grey. I am not sure how the NK log comes back up, but I know that the mini freezes before it does so.

So I need another way to get output from the machine. Luckily, with the Display Mgr up, it is possible to get QuickDraw to run! I have just gotten this to work. Now a dithered grey pattern can be drawn to the screen.

I spent several hours believing that the Display Mgr was actually freezing, so now I have reversed some important parts of it -- needlessly!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 21, 2018, 09:44:22 PM
The next crash was in the USBFamilyExpertLib. Skipping over it gets us this far. Promising!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 21, 2018, 11:57:42 PM
Ta-da!

Things that need to be disabled:
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: mrhappy on January 22, 2018, 12:31:33 AM
Drum roll please!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 22, 2018, 04:22:15 AM
Would somebody (looking at you nanopico) please post on how the mini's USB controller differs from a supported G4?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 22, 2018, 04:40:19 AM
By the way, here's a tbxi. It has too many ugly hacks to count. The one I am proudest of is the binary patch to the NativePowerMgrLib. Close second is the logging code that you will see spamming the NK log as the progress bar moves.

To start from this ROM, you must first copy the 'boot 3' resource inside into your System suitcase. Then you should empty your Extensions folder.

No USB, so you can't actually do much. Working on it.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: mrhappy on January 22, 2018, 05:48:00 AM
Than's some 'fancy' work there ELN... AWESOME!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on January 22, 2018, 06:49:36 AM
By the way, here's a tbxi. It has too many ugly hacks to count. The one I am proudest of is the binary patch to the NativePowerMgrLib. Close second is the logging code that you will see spamming the NK log as the progress bar moves.

To start from this ROM, you must first copy the 'boot 3' resource inside into your System suitcase. Then you should empty your Extensions folder.

No USB, so you can't actually do much. Working on it.

Not sure if my issue is the USB, on PB6,8.

I had considered it, as I'm trying to boot from USB.

If I leave Extensions enabled, things bomb out about a min. or so after the Ethernet loads.

Removing all the extensions doesn't get me any further.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on January 22, 2018, 07:57:44 AM
Ta-da!

Things that need to be disabled:
  • PMU
  • USB
  • Extensions (not sure which ones)

Not much shocks me... but this is absolutely crazy :)

While time marches on... 2018 and still progress being made... "priceless"
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on January 22, 2018, 10:21:59 AM
@ELN,

It's USB for me.

I used the Mac OS ROM v9.2.1 that comes on the install CD, rather than the "Generic" or "iBook" ROM.

With all extension disabled I was able to get the progress bar to fully load, but as I'm booting from USB the system couldn't mount the drive, so the Finder never launches.

I assume we likely have the same USB device, here's my IOReg:

Too long to post even in a code box, I'll boot Linux and see what lsusb and lspci return.

Code: [Select]
0001:10:1b.0 USB controller [0c03]: NEC Corporation OHCI USB Controller [1033:0035] (rev 43)
Subsystem: NEC Corporation USB Controller [1033:0035]
Kernel driver in use: ohci-pci
0001:10:1b.1 USB controller [0c03]: NEC Corporation OHCI USB Controller [1033:0035] (rev 43)
Subsystem: NEC Corporation USB Controller [1033:0035]
Kernel driver in use: ohci-pci
0001:10:1b.2 USB controller [0c03]: NEC Corporation uPD72010x USB 2.0 Controller [1033:00e0] (rev 04)
Subsystem: NEC Corporation uPD72010x USB 2.0 Controller [1033:00e0]
Kernel driver in use: ehci-pci

Code: [Select]
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 154b:007a PNY Classic Attache Flash Drive
Device Descriptor:
  bLength                18
  bDescriptorType         1
  bcdUSB               2.00
  bDeviceClass            0 (Defined at Interface level)
  bDeviceSubClass         0
  bDeviceProtocol         0
  bMaxPacketSize0        64
  idVendor           0x154b PNY
  idProduct          0x007a Classic Attache Flash Drive
  bcdDevice           11.00
  iManufacturer           1
  iProduct                2
  iSerial                 3
  bNumConfigurations      1
  Configuration Descriptor:
    bLength                 9
    bDescriptorType         2
    wTotalLength           32
    bNumInterfaces          1
    bConfigurationValue     1
    iConfiguration          0
    bmAttributes         0x80
      (Bus Powered)
    MaxPower              200mA
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        0
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           2
      bInterfaceClass         8 Mass Storage
      bInterfaceSubClass      6 SCSI
      bInterfaceProtocol     80 Bulk-Only
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
        bmAttributes            2
          Transfer Type            Bulk
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0200  1x 512 bytes
        bInterval             255
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x02  EP 2 OUT
        bmAttributes            2
          Transfer Type            Bulk
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0200  1x 512 bytes
        bInterval             255

Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Device Descriptor:
  bLength                18
  bDescriptorType         1
  bcdUSB               2.00
  bDeviceClass            9 Hub
  bDeviceSubClass         0 Unused
  bDeviceProtocol         0 Full speed (or root) hub
  bMaxPacketSize0        64
  idVendor           0x1d6b Linux Foundation
  idProduct          0x0002 2.0 root hub
  bcdDevice            4.04
  iManufacturer           3
  iProduct                2
  iSerial                 1
  bNumConfigurations      1
  Configuration Descriptor:
    bLength                 9
    bDescriptorType         2
    wTotalLength           25
    bNumInterfaces          1
    bConfigurationValue     1
    iConfiguration          0
    bmAttributes         0xe0
      Self Powered
      Remote Wakeup
    MaxPower                0mA
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        0
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           1
      bInterfaceClass         9 Hub
      bInterfaceSubClass      0 Unused
      bInterfaceProtocol      0 Full speed (or root) hub
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
        bmAttributes            3
          Transfer Type            Interrupt
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0004  1x 4 bytes
        bInterval              12

Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Device Descriptor:
  bLength                18
  bDescriptorType         1
  bcdUSB               1.10
  bDeviceClass            9 Hub
  bDeviceSubClass         0 Unused
  bDeviceProtocol         0 Full speed (or root) hub
  bMaxPacketSize0        64
  idVendor           0x1d6b Linux Foundation
  idProduct          0x0001 1.1 root hub
  bcdDevice            4.04
  iManufacturer           3
  iProduct                2
  iSerial                 1
  bNumConfigurations      1
  Configuration Descriptor:
    bLength                 9
    bDescriptorType         2
    wTotalLength           25
    bNumInterfaces          1
    bConfigurationValue     1
    iConfiguration          0
    bmAttributes         0xe0
      Self Powered
      Remote Wakeup
    MaxPower                0mA
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        0
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           1
      bInterfaceClass         9 Hub
      bInterfaceSubClass      0 Unused
      bInterfaceProtocol      0 Full speed (or root) hub
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
        bmAttributes            3
          Transfer Type            Interrupt
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0002  1x 2 bytes
        bInterval             255

Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Device Descriptor:
  bLength                18
  bDescriptorType         1
  bcdUSB               1.10
  bDeviceClass            9 Hub
  bDeviceSubClass         0 Unused
  bDeviceProtocol         0 Full speed (or root) hub
  bMaxPacketSize0        64
  idVendor           0x1d6b Linux Foundation
  idProduct          0x0001 1.1 root hub
  bcdDevice            4.04
  iManufacturer           3
  iProduct                2
  iSerial                 1
  bNumConfigurations      1
  Configuration Descriptor:
    bLength                 9
    bDescriptorType         2
    wTotalLength           25
    bNumInterfaces          1
    bConfigurationValue     1
    iConfiguration          0
    bmAttributes         0xe0
      Self Powered
      Remote Wakeup
    MaxPower                0mA
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        0
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           1
      bInterfaceClass         9 Hub
      bInterfaceSubClass      0 Unused
      bInterfaceProtocol      0 Full speed (or root) hub
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
        bmAttributes            3
          Transfer Type            Interrupt
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0002  1x 2 bytes
        bInterval             255

Bus 002 Device 003: ID 05ac:030a Apple, Inc. Internal Trackpad
Device Descriptor:
  bLength                18
  bDescriptorType         1
  bcdUSB               2.00
  bDeviceClass            0 (Defined at Interface level)
  bDeviceSubClass         0
  bDeviceProtocol         0
  bMaxPacketSize0         8
  idVendor           0x05ac Apple, Inc.
  idProduct          0x030a Internal Trackpad
  bcdDevice            0.06
  iManufacturer           1
  iProduct                2
  iSerial                 0
  bNumConfigurations      1
  Configuration Descriptor:
    bLength                 9
    bDescriptorType         2
    wTotalLength           34
    bNumInterfaces          1
    bConfigurationValue     1
    iConfiguration          0
    bmAttributes         0xa0
      (Bus Powered)
      Remote Wakeup
    MaxPower               40mA
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        0
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           1
      bInterfaceClass         3 Human Interface Device
      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Boot Interface Subclass
      bInterfaceProtocol      2 Mouse
      iInterface              6
        HID Device Descriptor:
          bLength                 9
          bDescriptorType        33
          bcdHID               1.10
          bCountryCode            0 Not supported
          bNumDescriptors         1
          bDescriptorType        34 Report
          wDescriptorLength      35
         Report Descriptors:
           ** UNAVAILABLE **
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
        bmAttributes            3
          Transfer Type            Interrupt
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0020  1x 32 bytes
        bInterval               1

Bus 002 Device 004: ID 05ac:8205 Apple, Inc. Bluetooth HCI
Device Descriptor:
  bLength                18
  bDescriptorType         1
  bcdUSB               2.00
  bDeviceClass          224 Wireless
  bDeviceSubClass         1 Radio Frequency
  bDeviceProtocol         1 Bluetooth
  bMaxPacketSize0        64
  idVendor           0x05ac Apple, Inc.
  idProduct          0x8205 Bluetooth HCI
  bcdDevice           19.65
  iManufacturer           0
  iProduct                0
  iSerial                 0
  bNumConfigurations      1
  Configuration Descriptor:
    bLength                 9
    bDescriptorType         2
    wTotalLength          193
    bNumInterfaces          3
    bConfigurationValue     1
    iConfiguration          0
    bmAttributes         0xe0
      Self Powered
      Remote Wakeup
    MaxPower                0mA
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        0
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           3
      bInterfaceClass       224 Wireless
      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Radio Frequency
      bInterfaceProtocol      1 Bluetooth
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
        bmAttributes            3
          Transfer Type            Interrupt
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0010  1x 16 bytes
        bInterval               1
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x02  EP 2 OUT
        bmAttributes            2
          Transfer Type            Bulk
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0040  1x 64 bytes
        bInterval               1
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x82  EP 2 IN
        bmAttributes            2
          Transfer Type            Bulk
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0040  1x 64 bytes
        bInterval               1
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        1
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           2
      bInterfaceClass       224 Wireless
      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Radio Frequency
      bInterfaceProtocol      1 Bluetooth
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x03  EP 3 OUT
        bmAttributes            1
          Transfer Type            Isochronous
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0000  1x 0 bytes
        bInterval               1
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x83  EP 3 IN
        bmAttributes            1
          Transfer Type            Isochronous
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0000  1x 0 bytes
        bInterval               1
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        1
      bAlternateSetting       1
      bNumEndpoints           2
      bInterfaceClass       224 Wireless
      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Radio Frequency
      bInterfaceProtocol      1 Bluetooth
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x03  EP 3 OUT
        bmAttributes            1
          Transfer Type            Isochronous
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0009  1x 9 bytes
        bInterval               1
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x83  EP 3 IN
        bmAttributes            1
          Transfer Type            Isochronous
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0009  1x 9 bytes
        bInterval               1
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        1
      bAlternateSetting       2
      bNumEndpoints           2
      bInterfaceClass       224 Wireless
      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Radio Frequency
      bInterfaceProtocol      1 Bluetooth
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x03  EP 3 OUT
        bmAttributes            1
          Transfer Type            Isochronous
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          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0011  1x 17 bytes
        bInterval               1
      Endpoint Descriptor:
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          Transfer Type            Isochronous
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        wMaxPacketSize     0x0011  1x 17 bytes
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      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Radio Frequency
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        wMaxPacketSize     0x0019  1x 25 bytes
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      Endpoint Descriptor:
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          Transfer Type            Isochronous
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        wMaxPacketSize     0x0019  1x 25 bytes
        bInterval               1
    Interface Descriptor:
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      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Radio Frequency
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      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
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        wMaxPacketSize     0x0021  1x 33 bytes
        bInterval               1
      Endpoint Descriptor:
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          Transfer Type            Isochronous
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        wMaxPacketSize     0x0021  1x 33 bytes
        bInterval               1
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      bInterfaceClass       224 Wireless
      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Radio Frequency
      bInterfaceProtocol      1 Bluetooth
      iInterface              0
      Endpoint Descriptor:
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          Download Supported
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        wTransferSize                    1023 bytes

Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Device Descriptor:
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  idVendor           0x1d6b Linux Foundation
  idProduct          0x0001 1.1 root hub
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      Self Powered
      Remote Wakeup
    MaxPower                0mA
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        bInterval             255
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on January 22, 2018, 11:59:37 AM
What happens if you use Timbuktu (or any other remote control software)? That might let you do some useful things with a mini
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on January 22, 2018, 04:20:51 PM
Just picked up a iBook G4, seems to have the same CPU as my PowerBook6,8. Likely the same USB, as is a PowerBook6,7.

I tried booting OS 9 from USB, and it has the same issue and the PB.

This time I installed the OS 9 drivers on the disk, before I installed Tiger, but I didn't setup an OS 9 partition, wishing I had, as trying to boot OS 9 from the HD results in the "Happy Mac" but it never finds the System suitcase.

Any way I can fix that?

My boot command:

Code: [Select]
boot hd:10,\System%20Folder\:tbxi
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 22, 2018, 05:40:43 PM
We're mostly focussed on the mini on this thread. It seems to have much more trouble starting than a PowerBook does.

For your PowerBook, I suggest using iMic's "Generic" Mac OS ROM. Copy the boot 3 resource from the ROM I posted into your Mac OS ROM file *and* the System suitcase. Run this OF line to boot:

Code: [Select]
2000000 encode-int " AAPL,debug" property mac-boot
Then let us know what the last log message is before the crash. Is there another thread somewhere that covers the PowerBook?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on January 22, 2018, 05:45:14 PM
I would suggest trying to set the startup disk with system preferences. I know that tbxis can be loaded from any folder, but I think the System File has to be in a blessed folder. Or maybe you could try moving the system files to the Coreservices OSX folder (after moving BootX somewhere else). That will probably prevent either operating system from booting, but maybe something will work.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 23, 2018, 02:48:52 PM
Would somebody (looking at you nanopico) please post on how the mini's USB controller differs from a supported G4?

I'll look, but it really doesn't.
It's the PMU.  It is controlled over USB.
They will be tied together nicely (or not so much).
That is why the both need to be disabled.

PMU99 (supported) is a Mitsubishi M16C/62F microprocessor.  It uses it's own RAM and ROM.  the uPMU in the mini will likely not have the same ROM and thus not the same interface (from a communication/software standpoint) except for very very low level common functions like turn on and turn off. 
Intrepid controls all IO (USB and PMU communication). The USB controller chip and PMU are known for all the supported and other machines.  The communication through Intrepid is obviously slightly different than the straight up Keylargo chip used elsewhere or else the PowerBooks would have much more  functionality.

So details on uPMU and Intrepid are needed.  There is much info availble in the OS X source to help identifiy the difference between Keylargo and Intrepid. I have found nothing directly related to PMU99 or uPMU in the OS X code (it's a lot so it's not exactly fast to go through).  All power IO does appear to be handled by Keylargo or Intrepid.  So those chips definitly have knowledge of communication to the PMU.  Disabling the PMU and USB controller makes intrepid stop using them so it just goes on it's happy little way.

Okay I'm starting to confuse myself.  I'll dig more when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 26, 2018, 04:33:48 PM
It seems that my forum post last night did not go through. I got USB working on the mini! The USB controller driver had a dependence on the PMU that I worked around. (All as nanopico predicted!)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: mrhappy on January 26, 2018, 11:04:45 PM
Hey that's awesome!! ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: androda on January 27, 2018, 01:01:07 PM
I think I speak for all of us when I say Thank you for all your work on this!  And What Mac OS ROM can we use to try this ourselves, for extension compatibility testing?

What other repercussions are there for disabling the PMU?  Does the PMU control CPU voltage?  Don't want to burn anything out.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 27, 2018, 02:17:36 PM
The PMU controls sleep and such.  On the mini it really doesn't do much more than that.
Breaking it away from USB will primarily mean that if it goes to sleep (if it can at all) it will probably not wake up and will be required to hard restart.  The link between USB and PMU is mostly for controlling device sleep status.

So here is the warning.
There is a possibility that it could cause overheating and possible awkward state that may not be easily be rectified.  Primarily from some devices sleep and some not.


Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: macStuff on January 28, 2018, 06:15:00 AM
congrats on your progress  8)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on January 28, 2018, 12:52:00 PM
It seems that my forum post last night did not go through. I got USB working on the mini! The USB controller driver had a dependence on the PMU that I worked around. (All as nanopico predicted!)

Well ELN, you going to make us beg ;D

We'd be interest to know how to reproduce your hacks.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on January 28, 2018, 03:58:47 PM
By the way, here's a tbxi. It has too many ugly hacks to count. The one I am proudest of is the binary patch to the NativePowerMgrLib. Close second is the logging code that you will see spamming the NK log as the progress bar moves.

To start from this ROM, you must first copy the 'boot 3' resource inside into your System suitcase. Then you should empty your Extensions folder.

No USB, so you can't actually do much. Working on it.

This is great, but how do I use it? It won't boot from it, and when I open it in ResEdit, it says there's no resource fork, and I have to create it! I even tried directly downloading it onto my iBook G3, thinking macOS High Sierra was somehow messing it up.

Do I have to package this up somehow?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 29, 2018, 08:04:40 AM
By the way, here's a tbxi. It has too many ugly hacks to count. The one I am proudest of is the binary patch to the NativePowerMgrLib. Close second is the logging code that you will see spamming the NK log as the progress bar moves.

To start from this ROM, you must first copy the 'boot 3' resource inside into your System suitcase. Then you should empty your Extensions folder.

No USB, so you can't actually do much. Working on it.

This is great, but how do I use it? It won't boot from it, and when I open it in ResEdit, it says there's no resource fork, and I have to create it! I even tried directly downloading it onto my iBook G3, thinking macOS High Sierra was somehow messing it up.

Do I have to package this up somehow?

You will need to unpackage it.  It should do that on it's own on an OS 9 machine if you just double click on it.
As far as using it,  as of right now you will need to be able to put the mini into target disc mode, format it's drive with OS 9 drivers, manualy copy the ROM file and a minimal System folder with no extensions.

I haven't gotten to look at this yet, but you may need to make a couple small changes in Open Firmware to allow it to the ROM to accept it is allowed to boot.

I'm working to get a bootable CD image ready for those that will want to test booting and running and extensions to see what you can break.


Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 29, 2018, 08:10:21 AM
Would somebody (looking at you nanopico) please post on how the mini's USB controller differs from a supported G4?

Here's some info on not just on USB.  This is something I sent to ELN not long ago. So here it goes live to the WORLD.

Quote
Yes I know I am rehashing existing knowledge but it makes sense in context.

So here is the deal.  Here are the custom chips used on all the G3 and G4 macs.

Grackle, Heathrow, Keylargo, U2, UniNorth, Pangea, Intrepid, Paddington.

Grackle and Heathrow use cuda.
Everything else (except the mini) use PMU99.

Grackle and Heathrow are used only on the Beige G3 and original G3 power book.

Pangea is Keylargo and UniNorth on one chip so essentially cross that one off.
We now have Grackle, Heathrow, Keylargo, UniNorth,U2 and Intrepid.

All of the PowerMac G4 use UniNorth and Keylargo except the MDD.  They use U2 instead of UniNorth. Because the first MDD had OS 9 support officially, that mean that U2 has full OS 9 support. I suspect that U2 is compatible with UniNorth but just has something internal that is different and really doesn't mater.

The iBooks use Pangea for the G3's so essentially they all use UniNorth and Keylargo.
The orginal one uses UniNorth and Keylargo as independent chips though.

The iMac G3's use Grackle and Paddington on the original, UniNorth and Keylargo as independent chips and then Pangea for the rest.

The not original G3 PowerBook uses UniNorth and Keylargo independent.

The eMacs all use UniNorth and KeyLargo

All unsupported use Intrepid.  There is not a single machine that uses intrepid that is supported.
But they all use PMU99 except the mini.  The mini is it's own beast.

The PMU is controlled via the IO controller (intrepid or keylargo).

The PMU controls sleep, the real time clock, screen brightness on laptops, battery charging on laptops and the keyboard and trackpad interface on laptops.

On older laptops it does the keyboard/trackpad through ADB and then USB on the rest.
This is why you had to disable the PMU and USB on the mini.

So all those G4 laptops that have Power Management problems and screen brightness controls on the OS X only machines have Intrepid to thank for that.
The IO controller in Intrepid can be operated in a very basic form, but all the extra functionality is unknown as it must be different.

Now go through the source for Core99 and Keylargo in OS X and the USB interface code.
They all reference Keylargo and Intrepid. They both have all the same functions, but they do it through different registers.  There are common ones yes, but some of the Keylargo ones that are on Intrepid do completely different things and the other way as well.  In fact there are many times where a register in Keylargo uses X number of bits to control stuff and Intrepid uses the same number but shifted.  So OS 9 would send bat shit crazy instructions to Intrepid related to the PMU. So at this point the PMU is just a black hole and it really doesn't matter.  So point being that there are different registers and for similar ones different bit patterns or not used registers in one or the other.
There is nothing about the uPMU in OS X source at all.  So it must be compatible in some way.

Please not that the code for these things is spread across a bunch of places so I may have missed something.

From what I can find using actual Apple documentation is that Pangea and Keylargo are the same in the IO controller part.
Intrepid provides the same functionality but is completely different. So back to earlier this is why all those PowerBooks have issues all related to power.

Continuing on.  The USB bus and PMU are very tightly joined.
There is a lot of communication going between the two (through intrepid mind you) related to controlling a lot of power related functionality.  So disabling one in the mini is definitely not enough as I assume you have found out already Elliot.

Now here comes the best part.  Intrepid is the same through all the machines.
The PMU is not.  PMU99 is not the same on every machine. Well it is and it isn't.
The PMU is just a microcontroller.  It actually could do anything. It could act as the main CPU for the machine (though it would be so incredibly slow).  It has it's own ROM and RAM.
Each machine would have it's own special code loaded onto the PMU chip. So there would be a pretty wide variety of capabilities of the chip.  PMU99 is just the name they gave to a specific Mitsubishi chip.  You can find documentation on it's ISA and other things online.  So nothing special.  uPMU is just the name for a different physical chip.  What that chip is exactly I have not found out yet.  I'm a little nervous about cracking mine open to find out what it is.

So looking at documentation that I could find, Intrepid has it's own internal USB bus just like Keylargo.  Keylargo had two separate ports.  These are the ones you actually see physically on the machine.  On laptops PMU99 is programed to handle the interface for the keyboard and trackpad.
Intrepid has three ports on it's controller.  One is used for Bluetooth and modem if present.
The other two are not used and are not available to use. So this makes it not directly compatible with Keylargo, though probably close enough.  The USB ports you see physically come from a PCI USB controller. The two USB ports are on the same controller so they share the bus.  On keylargo where USB is controlled internally, it has two independent controllers so that both ports can operate with out sharing anything. I would think this sort of thing was changed because USB 2 was used on the PCI controller and that is faster so they thought it less of an issue to have them on the same controller.

Back to the PMU chip. When the trampoline runs, it may be identifying PMU99 and setting it up correctly to talk with Intrepid.  uPMU probably talks the same way just maybe on different pins physically.  But since the trampoline does not know about it, it can't set it up.
And the as far as the trampoline goes, it doesn't know enough about Intrepid to get it up and running enough to link in the PMU correctly.

If you have any info that may contridict this or can expand on it, I'd love to hear it, but please provide a source of the info as it may contain other important stuff too.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on January 29, 2018, 03:08:59 PM
By the way, here's a tbxi. It has too many ugly hacks to count. The one I am proudest of is the binary patch to the NativePowerMgrLib. Close second is the logging code that you will see spamming the NK log as the progress bar moves.

To start from this ROM, you must first copy the 'boot 3' resource inside into your System suitcase. Then you should empty your Extensions folder.

No USB, so you can't actually do much. Working on it.

This is great, but how do I use it? It won't boot from it, and when I open it in ResEdit, it says there's no resource fork, and I have to create it! I even tried directly downloading it onto my iBook G3, thinking macOS High Sierra was somehow messing it up.

Do I have to package this up somehow?

You will need to unpackage it.  It should do that on it's own on an OS 9 machine if you just double click on it.
As far as using it,  as of right now you will need to be able to put the mini into target disc mode, format it's drive with OS 9 drivers, manualy copy the ROM file and a minimal System folder with no extensions.

I haven't gotten to look at this yet, but you may need to make a couple small changes in Open Firmware to allow it to the ROM to accept it is allowed to boot.

I'm working to get a bootable CD image ready for those that will want to test booting and running and extensions to see what you can break.

 ::) I didn't even think about double clicking on it! Lol, I'll try that a little later and see if it works.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on January 29, 2018, 04:30:14 PM
Got it! And yes, it's not very useful as there's no USB support. I used the open firmware commands here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2408.msg28206.html#msg28206 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2408.msg28206.html#msg28206)
Just entering "boot" wouldn't work. I had to use "boot hd:,\\:tbxi"

I had to copy ID 3 from the boot resource to the System Suitcase, then it worked. Otherwise it'll bomb saying address error, or something like that.

Is there a way to put those commands in the NVRAM, so I don't have to enter them every time?

Pictures:
https://imgur.com/2NQGnXZ (https://imgur.com/2NQGnXZ)
https://imgur.com/6ZF4jlq (https://imgur.com/6ZF4jlq)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on January 29, 2018, 07:29:23 PM
  I know integrated Bluetooth runs on it's own USB port internally on the MDD and presumably every other G4 where it was an option, but does anyone happen to know if the modem in the G4 Mini is USB, or did it retain the serial port method used in other models even though it's modem is physically different?  I'm musing about the possibility of hacking an actual serial port into the Mini.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 30, 2018, 05:52:28 AM
  I know integrated Bluetooth runs on it's own USB port internally on the MDD and presumably every other G4 where it was an option, but does anyone happen to know if the modem in the G4 Mini is USB, or did it retain the serial port method used in other models even though it's modem is physically different?  I'm musing about the possibility of hacking an actual serial port into the Mini.

The modem on the mini uses the same port actually as Bluetooth. As does any G4 laptop.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on January 30, 2018, 07:54:41 PM
  I know integrated Bluetooth runs on it's own USB port internally on the MDD and presumably every other G4 where it was an option, but does anyone happen to know if the modem in the G4 Mini is USB, or did it retain the serial port method used in other models even though it's modem is physically different?  I'm musing about the possibility of hacking an actual serial port into the Mini.

The modem on the mini uses the same port actually as Bluetooth. As does any G4 laptop.

  So the modem is on a USB bus internally in those models?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on January 31, 2018, 07:27:42 AM
  I know integrated Bluetooth runs on it's own USB port internally on the MDD and presumably every other G4 where it was an option, but does anyone happen to know if the modem in the G4 Mini is USB, or did it retain the serial port method used in other models even though it's modem is physically different?  I'm musing about the possibility of hacking an actual serial port into the Mini.

The modem on the mini uses the same port actually as Bluetooth. As does any G4 laptop.

  So the modem is on a USB bus internally in those models?

Small correction.  The modem on these models is not an emulated or actual serial device.
It is connected to the I2S bus so it is not a usb modem internally either.

A little more clarification and correction here.
North Bridge and IO controller (which on other models are separate chips) is a single chip called Intrepid.
Intrepid has 3 internal USB controllers (0, 1, 2)  Controller 2 is used for bluetooth, 0 and 1 are not available for use.
The external usb ports you see and can use, are on a seperate PCI USB controller.

So technically there are two unused USB bus internally.  These are physicillay on the chip, but not exposed to software at all. Plus there is not a way to physically connect to them unless you really really like soldering really really tiny things to other really really tiny things with really really tiny wires.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on January 31, 2018, 02:30:55 PM
  I2S bus - alright that's quite interesting.  I wasn't really expecting that, but good to know.  I also wasn't expecting there to be a PCI USB controller, nor an ordinary PCI bus - are these actually discrete and exposed?  That would be far more exciting to exploit than a serial bus, however difficult or unlikely that prospect might be.  Presumably the internal USB port connected to Bluetooth could also be converted into an additional standard port using a port driver chip.

  Crazy thoughts, I know.  I'll quit musing about this for now until more progress is made on basic operation of the Mini in OS 9.  I only like to think about such things because I never wanted a Mini originally due to the lack of decent expandability.  I'm still considering getting one of the much later models with Thunderbolt when the prices finally get down to reasonable.

<update>
Somewhat answering my own question here after studying photos at a couple links:

https://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/ (https://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/)
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1596/9 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/1596/9)

  USB controller is BGA type - not so fun to mess with.  The Broadcom network chip appears to be pin-style though.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on January 31, 2018, 11:07:19 PM
Hi guys. Here's the latest hacked-up image. I've started a new rotation at uni so I'll probably be a little bit quiet for a while. I'll post soon on the PowerPC code patches that make this ROM go. Have fun!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on February 01, 2018, 06:40:29 AM
  I2S bus - alright that's quite interesting.  I wasn't really expecting that, but good to know.  I also wasn't expecting there to be a PCI USB controller, nor an ordinary PCI bus - are these actually discrete and exposed?  That would be far more exciting to exploit than a serial bus, however difficult or unlikely that prospect might be.  Presumably the internal USB port connected to Bluetooth could also be converted into an additional standard port using a port driver chip.

  Crazy thoughts, I know.  I'll quit musing about this for now until more progress is made on basic operation of the Mini in OS 9.  I only like to think about such things because I never wanted a Mini originally due to the lack of decent expandability.  I'm still considering getting one of the much later models with Thunderbolt when the prices finally get down to reasonable.

<update>
Somewhat answering my own question here after studying photos at a couple links:

https://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/ (https://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/)
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1596/9 (https://www.anandtech.com/show/1596/9)

  USB controller is BGA type - not so fun to mess with.  The Broadcom network chip appears to be pin-style though.
Almost all laptops even have a pci bus.  I guess it's possible to hack a connector on any machine, but the traces on the logic board will not be designed for a connector and would require some physical wires.  Not sure if all the IRQ lines would be there since it is for internal use.  Same goes for the internal USB controller.  It's integrated into the chip and probably doesn't really expose any pins (assumption not fact).  So they are just the type of connection between the IO, North Bridge and CPU.  Not a physical looking bus like you are acustomed to see in desktop computers.  This is not mac specific either.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 10, 2018, 02:01:41 PM
Hi guys. Here's the latest hacked-up image. I've started a new rotation at uni so I'll probably be a little bit quiet for a while. I'll post soon on the PowerPC code patches that make this ROM go. Have fun!

@ELN, I think your download is corrupt, doesn't have the type tbxi...

Maybe drop stuff it.

 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 12, 2018, 01:31:39 AM
I do NOT have any other OS9 machines, but just have this one g4 mini. Too format the drive with OS 9 drivers, it would not let me in Disk Utility, so I booted off a Tiger DvD and opened up the terminal. I typed "diskutil eraseDisk" and that showed me I can use this command : "diskutil eraseDisk format vol_name [OS9Drivers] { mount_point | device }" so to format my internal I entered in "diskutil eraseDisk HFS+ OS9 OS9Drivers /dev/disk0". Then I opened diskutility and got info on my Disk and sure enough there were 10 partitions and it said that OS9 drivers were installed. Next I booted off a Leopard external FW Lacie disk and copied over the entire contents of a generic os 9 cd (white with orange 9, install cd, it was 9.2.1) onto the OS9 disk I had made, emptied the Extensions, replaced the ROM, then blessed in terminal. I shut down, entered open firmware and typed in the commands mentioned earlier, then I booted to a flashing ? on a floppy disk. Did it not detect my HD? I entered the 9.2.1 generic CD and then I booted until finally a bomb when loading 2nd extension. What do I do to get it recognized, so I can boot with no extensions and the special ROM?? Also about the boot3 resource to system suitcase, how would I go about doing that?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 13, 2018, 06:59:11 AM
Open ELN's Mac OS ROM in ResEdit, open the 'boot' resource, copy 3. Open the System suitcase in resedit, open the 'boot' resource, paste 3, save, reboot.

If screen res and color depth don't work, I think I can cook up an 'NDRV' for the mini.

I don't have one, so someone with need to:

Code: [Select]
dev agp/@10/@0 .properties
I need the " compatible" property from one of the display outputs.

The display may not be @0, so you may need:


Code: [Select]
dev screen .properties
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 13, 2018, 09:49:18 AM
  I just snagged a 1.5GHz G4 Mini on eBay, so I'll officially be able to help with this project once it arrives!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 12:07:50 AM
I have not tried copying the boot3 over yet, but will soon. To install Mac OS 9.2.2, I installed the Unsupported G4's version onto Qemu, and as it is saved in an img file I just restored the Mac mini's OS partition from the img. Then replaced the ROM and emptied extensions. I have got OS9 drivers installed from terminal. Though if I boot from from the hd, I don't even get to a bomb, it's just a q mark. The internal hd does show however as MacOSLives with a Finder badge, if I hold alt on startup. Do I simply have to install it over target disk mode with an OS 9 Mac?

Since resedit was an OS 9 thing I also have to copy boot3 from there are then restore the mini again. When the flashing q mark shows, I had this "Rescue and Install CD", and if I insert that it starts booting until bomb, so I tried taking the contents of that CD and just took out the extensions, burnt it, now if I insert the new Compact Disc after booting from the hd, it remains a flashing q mark. I have blessed the image before I burnt it and blessed the hd. So is it just that I need an OS 9 Mac to install OS 9 onto the mini over a fw400 cable? Maybe because it installs stuff on the other nine partitions on the same disk?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 14, 2018, 03:02:49 AM
Not sure, you may not have a properly blessed system folder.

I've had random luck blessing it from the terminal in OS X.

Try:

Code: [Select]
bless -folder9 "/Volumes/HD Volume/System Folder"


Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 04:27:27 AM
I got it to a bomb now. I mounted my disk image and typed diskutil list. There were 7 slices on the image and disk utility only let me restore the 7th one. So I unmounted my internal, and the disk image and from terminal typed
Code: [Select]
hdid -nomount "/Volumes/USB/OS9MINI.img" (mount as block device only)

then
Code: [Select]
dd if=/dev/disk3 of=/dev/disk0 bs=131072 (copy entire image to internal hard disk)

then
Code: [Select]
sudo bless -folder9 "/Volumes/OS 9 MINI/System Folder" (blessed) Thanks for the command, I forgot the 9.

Booted into the Open Firmware and typed out the goods then booted to Mac OS 9 loading screen and bombed saying address error, so I will copy over the boot3 thing again and see if that works.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 06:04:39 AM
So as I said I have been using Qemu to install OS9 (and modify the install) onto img files then restore them to the Mac mini's internal hard drive. I have copied the boot resource with ID 3 over to both the "Classic" and "System" files inside of the System Folder but keep getting address errors when I boot. I then edited it on a Tiger drive through Classic Environment. I am using another System Folder on the Tiger HD, to edit the one on the internal HD. This is what the Classic and System suitcase look like after I have edited them:
https://imgur.com/i23fDMW (https://imgur.com/i23fDMW)
What else would need changing to get past the address error?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 14, 2018, 06:20:07 AM
So as I said I have been using Qemu to install OS9 (and modify the install) onto img files then restore them to the Mac mini's internal hard drive. I have copied the boot resource with ID 3 over to both the "Classic" and "System" files inside of the System Folder but keep getting address errors when I boot. I then edited it on a Tiger drive through Classic Environment. I am using another System Folder on the Tiger HD, to edit the one on the internal HD. This is what the Classic and System suitcase look like after I have edited them:
https://imgur.com/i23fDMW (https://imgur.com/i23fDMW)
What else would need changing to get past the address error?

I'm not sure what's going wrong, you may be using the wrong Mac OS ROM file, ELN linked a few. The last one in post #169 should allow boot, but it's not a valid :tbxi when I download it.

Try and find the last one he posted before that, other than that, sorry I can't be more helpful, I don't have a G4 Mini to play along with, only a PowerBook6,8.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 06:37:31 AM
So as I said I have been using Qemu to install OS9 (and modify the install) onto img files then restore them to the Mac mini's internal hard drive. I have copied the boot resource with ID 3 over to both the "Classic" and "System" files inside of the System Folder but keep getting address errors when I boot. I then edited it on a Tiger drive through Classic Environment. I am using another System Folder on the Tiger HD, to edit the one on the internal HD. This is what the Classic and System suitcase look like after I have edited them:
https://imgur.com/i23fDMW (https://imgur.com/i23fDMW)
What else would need changing to get past the address error?

I'm not sure what's going wrong, you may be using the wrong Mac OS ROM file, ELN linked a few. The last one in post #169 should allow boot, but it's not a valid :tbxi when I download it.

Try and find the last one he posted before that, other than that, sorry I can't be more helpful, I don't have a G4 Mini to play along with, only a PowerBook6,8.

I tried the latest ROM a few days ago, but like you said about the tbxi, when I typed
Code: [Select]
boot hd:,\\:tbxi after all the other commands, it didn't want to boot like that.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 06:38:57 AM
And I forgot to mention, I am using the ROM file that was inside a .bin, which is the one I think before the latest.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 14, 2018, 07:09:08 AM
And I forgot to mention, I am using the ROM file that was inside a .bin, which is the one I think before the latest.

I think you have the correct one, the one from post 143?

I was able to get to the desktop on my PowerBook6,8 with that one, but the finder never started, tho the system stayed running.

One the Mac mini it should get you to the desktop, but the system won't be usable at all, as there is no USB.

Make sure you are booting with no extensions in the extension folder.

I think we're all in the same boat here, waiting on a valid :tbxi before we can do much else.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 07:13:00 AM
And I forgot to mention, I am using the ROM file that was inside a .bin, which is the one I think before the latest.

I think you have the correct one, the one from post 143?

I was able to get to the desktop on my PowerBook6,8 with that one, but the finder never started, tho the system stayed running.

One the Mac mini it should get you to the desktop, but the system won't be usable at all, as there is no USB.

Make sure you are booting with no extensions in the extension folder.

I think we're all in the same boat here, waiting on a valid :tbxi before we can do much else.

Yes I am using the ROM from post 143, and this is the one I get the address error with, so might just have to wait for a bit, but you see I have done the same things as ry755 has done, and he managed to get to the desktop, so I must have gone wrong somewhere, not sure where though.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 07:21:05 AM
I have put all the Extensions into the Extensions (Disabled) folder. Though before I get the bomb, 1 icon is shown in the bottom left.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 07:53:05 AM
This has probably nothing to do with it but I noticed that in the ROM from post 143, in the Boot Script, MacRISC2 was spelt MacRiSC2, with that lower-case i

Could that change anything if it was a capital?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 14, 2018, 08:37:58 AM
I have put all the Extensions into the Extensions (Disabled) folder. Though before I get the bomb, 1 icon is shown in the bottom left.

You shouldn't see any icons.

Even if you boot with the shift key, there are some extension that will load before.....

See if you can hold the space bar and get into the extension manager before you get the bomb.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 08:47:09 AM
I have put all the Extensions into the Extensions (Disabled) folder. Though before I get the bomb, 1 icon is shown in the bottom left.

You shouldn't see any icons.

Even if you boot with the shift key, there are some extension that will load before.....

See if you can hold the space bar and get into the extension manager before you get the bomb.

I cannot get into the extensions manager or extensions off with shift key, but my extensions folder is empty.
This is the 1 and only icon I see in bottom left: https://imgur.com/HyD1zym (https://imgur.com/HyD1zym)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 14, 2018, 09:36:30 AM
I have put all the Extensions into the Extensions (Disabled) folder. Though before I get the bomb, 1 icon is shown in the bottom left.

You shouldn't see any icons.

Even if you boot with the shift key, there are some extension that will load before.....

See if you can hold the space bar and get into the extension manager before you get the bomb.

I cannot get into the extensions manager or extensions off with shift key, but my extensions folder is empty.
This is the 1 and only icon I see in bottom left: https://imgur.com/HyD1zym (https://imgur.com/HyD1zym)

  That's the PC File Exchange extension.  The file may be partially damaged, rendering it invisible in the Finder.  I've seen this happen before.  If that were the case, unless you can use a disk repair program on another machine your next best option would be to remove the existing Extensions folder entirely from the System Folder and create a new Extensions folder that you know will be completely empty.  The extension you're seeing is entirely optional to have present - if you don't need PC partition access on that machine then you don't need the extension at all.  Even if it's not damaged I don't think you have any other recourse at the moment.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 10:47:09 AM
I have put all the Extensions into the Extensions (Disabled) folder. Though before I get the bomb, 1 icon is shown in the bottom left.

You shouldn't see any icons.

Even if you boot with the shift key, there are some extension that will load before.....

See if you can hold the space bar and get into the extension manager before you get the bomb.

I cannot get into the extensions manager or extensions off with shift key, but my extensions folder is empty.
This is the 1 and only icon I see in bottom left: https://imgur.com/HyD1zym (https://imgur.com/HyD1zym)

  That's the PC File Exchange extension.  The file may be partially damaged, rendering it invisible in the Finder.  I've seen this happen before.  If that were the case, unless you can use a disk repair program on another machine your next best option would be to remove the existing Extensions folder entirely from the System Folder and create a new Extensions folder that you know will be completely empty.  The extension you're seeing is entirely optional to have present - if you don't need PC partition access on that machine then you don't need the extension at all.  Even if it's not damaged I don't think you have any other recourse at the moment.

In the Control Panels folder there was something called File Exchange, that had the same icon as the one I showed you. I deleted it and rebooted, the icon did not show but I still got an address error Bomb. The boot resource ID 3 is still in the System Suitcase.
https://imgur.com/W68BizS (https://imgur.com/W68BizS)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 14, 2018, 11:33:39 AM
We know you're using the right Rom, so something must be wrong with the System suitcase.

You may want to try:

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 12:08:51 PM
We know you're using the right Rom, so something must be wrong with the System suitcase.

You may want to try:

Unfortunately, that new Suitcase didn't seem to change anything, still got a bomb, if I was to restore an entire Generic 9.2.1 CD to the HD, and update the ROM and Suitcase, that could work so I will try that, unless you can think of why else this is happening.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 12:51:29 PM
We know you're using the right Rom, so something must be wrong with the System suitcase.

You may want to try:

Unfortunately, that new Suitcase didn't seem to change anything, still got a bomb, if I was to restore an entire Generic 9.2.1 CD to the HD, and update the ROM and Suitcase, that could work so I will try that, unless you can think of why else this is happening.

The CD restore was not recognised and a restore from a clean generic install with updated Mac OS ROM and System Suitcase did the same as the Unsupported G4's install, with updated ROM and Suitcase. Not sure what's gone wrong.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 14, 2018, 02:25:25 PM
We know you're using the right Rom, so something must be wrong with the System suitcase.

You may want to try:

Unfortunately, that new Suitcase didn't seem to change anything, still got a bomb, if I was to restore an entire Generic 9.2.1 CD to the HD, and update the ROM and Suitcase, that could work so I will try that, unless you can think of why else this is happening.

The CD restore was not recognised and a restore from a clean generic install with updated Mac OS ROM and System Suitcase did the same as the Unsupported G4's install, with updated ROM and Suitcase. Not sure what's gone wrong.
 

What Mini do you have?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 14, 2018, 02:59:54 PM
We know you're using the right Rom, so something must be wrong with the System suitcase.

You may want to try:

Unfortunately, that new Suitcase didn't seem to change anything, still got a bomb, if I was to restore an entire Generic 9.2.1 CD to the HD, and update the ROM and Suitcase, that could work so I will try that, unless you can think of why else this is happening.

The CD restore was not recognised and a restore from a clean generic install with updated Mac OS ROM and System Suitcase did the same as the Unsupported G4's install, with updated ROM and Suitcase. Not sure what's gone wrong.
 

What Mini do you have?

A1103
PowerMac10,1
1.42GHz
256 MB RAM (thats what it says on the box but when I got off ebay it had 512MB)
80GB ATA Hard Drive
ATI Radeon 9200 graphics
56K Modem
Slot loading Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
One FW400 port
2 USB 2.0 Ports
No AirPort/Bluetooth installed
Preinstalled OS 10.3.7
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 15, 2018, 03:40:03 AM
Do I need to use any other commands, these are currently what I am using:
Code: [Select]
dev /
 " MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
dev /
1303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property
dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
boot hd:,\\:tbxi
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 15, 2018, 04:51:55 AM
Do I need to use any other commands, these are currently what I am using:
Code: [Select]
dev /
 " MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
dev /
1303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property
dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
boot hd:,\\:tbxi



The Rom you have should really only need the AAPL,debug property set, it's already hacked to include RISC3 and the 7447a cpu.

One thing you may try is a System Folder with only the Mac OS ROM/ Finder/ System( suitcase ).
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 15, 2018, 05:10:57 AM
Do I need to use any other commands, these are currently what I am using:
Code: [Select]
dev /
 " MacRISC" encode-string " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
dev /
1303ffff encode-int " AAPL,debug" property
dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
boot hd:,\\:tbxi



The Rom you have should really only need the AAPL,debug property set, it's already hacked to include RISC3 and the 7447a cpu.

One thing you may try is a System Folder with only the Mac OS ROM/ Finder/ System( suitcase ).

What I did now was take everything out of the root, just keep System Folder, put ROM, System (Updated Versions) in and the Finder from a Generic install CD and now I am finally at the desktop, thanks. Also the clock in the top right is still changing every minute.
https://imgur.com/fAmjL6x (https://imgur.com/fAmjL6x)

It seems that I have to keep deleting everything for it to boot so I will start slimming it down until I can find which folder is causing the problem.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 15, 2018, 05:47:16 AM
I have found that deleting "System Resources" in the System Folder will get me past the address error. It is remade every time the OS 9 is booted and so needs deleting every time for me.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 15, 2018, 08:28:05 AM
Right now I am going through every extension to see which ones will still allow me to boot to the desktop, and strangely I was a bit though all of the extensions when I added the Audio Extension - when I booted into OS 9, the light on my mouse lit up and I could move the mouse around, but this was still on the Mac OS 9.2 loading screen, and the loading bar did not progress any more than half way. Took the extension out again, booted to the desktop but no USB.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 15, 2018, 09:57:23 AM
ELN got USB working, we just don't have a valid download of his latest ROM.

I'm wondering if the conflict we are seeing with Sound and USB on some of these later Mac's is related to the Modem.

I think it is a USB device, but it has a connection to the sound device.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 15, 2018, 10:18:01 AM
ELN got USB working, we just don't have a valid download of his latest ROM.

I'm wondering if the conflict we are seeing with Sound and USB on some of these later Mac's is related to the Modem.

I think it is a USB device, but it has a connection to the sound device.

Okay, nice. It will be good to have USB. I have managed to get a lot of extensions working, but even that is a small portion of the ones I am testing. I can use a whole install of the Unsupported G4's with ROM, System suitcase and most Extensions I have tested, but do you know why I have to delete "System Resources" to pass the address error? Every boot that file is re-created.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 15, 2018, 01:31:37 PM
  Great news on the USB issue.  Makes me even more excited about my Mini that is currently in transit.  I'd be quite interested to hear ELN chime in here on an updated explanation of the error and of the nature of what was done to resolve it.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 15, 2018, 07:12:31 PM
Hi guys,

I'm really sorry that last ROM gave you trouble! Uni has gone back for the year so I've been busy. Here's a repost in a couple of formats.

The technique I used to patch the necessary PowerPC code was a bit tricky. I have been working to document and harden my rather delicate ROM build system (now approaching its second birthday). Soon, I hope to have you all building and testing your own ROMs!

In broad terms, I just nopped out a function call from the USB interface driver to the NativePowerMgrLib.

But I have very little insight into this System Resources error! Can I suggest installing MacsBug on your boot drive and posting a picture of the error screen?

Best,

Elliot
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 16, 2018, 04:37:02 AM
My USB keyboard and mouse are working when it boots which is good with this new ROM, thanks. Now I have got an address error again, and it doesn't go away with the things I have tried last time. I installed MacsBug onto the drive and when it booted I typed StdLog and the images are attached. There is a picture of the address error before I installed MacsBug in there too. Also will note that I have tried to get back to what I had yesterday but just end up at an address error by doing exactly the same things so there must be something in the other partitions that are made when making os9 drivers, even though it was the same restore. <- restore then pram zap fixed it, but still address error with the USB rom.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 17, 2018, 10:42:48 AM
https://github.com/elliotnunn/mac-rom (https://github.com/elliotnunn/mac-rom)
Output: BuildResults/RISC/Image/RomMondo

https://github.com/elliotnunn/powermac-rom (https://github.com/elliotnunn/powermac-rom)
Input: RomMondo.bin
Output: BuildResults/PowerROM

https://github.com/elliotnunn/newworld-rom (https://github.com/elliotnunn/newworld-rom)
Input: rom
Output: tbxi

Who's ready to get building?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on February 18, 2018, 06:35:29 PM
The technique I used to patch the necessary PowerPC code was a bit tricky. I have been working to document and harden my rather delicate ROM build system (now approaching its second birthday). Soon, I hope to have you all building and testing your own ROMs!

Best,

Elliot

Ahhh, teaching us how to fish instead of just handing out the fish... excellent :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 20, 2018, 03:34:57 PM
Has anyone tried the Apple CD/DVD driver on the Mini?

It's not working on the PowerBook.

Even disabling the extension and putting an HFS CD into the drive hangs the Finder before it starts, but that's not unexpected as an HFS CD has the Apple CD/DVD driver in it's partition map.

Only real reason it matters is it's going to be hard to make a bootable iso for people to test and install if the disc hangs the finder.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 22, 2018, 12:36:50 PM
Good news, nobody sharked my bid for a Mini on Ebay, so I'll have one in about a week 8)

I should be able to get 2D/3D working on it, I've figured out how all the ATI drivers work.

That's my part, I don't do assembly. I know some C C++, and I've made a few device drivers for OS X, but most of the stuff ELN and nanopico talk about is way over my head.

 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on February 22, 2018, 12:47:32 PM
That's my part, I don't do assembly. I know some C C++, and I've made a few device drivers for OS X, but most of the stuff ELN and nanopico talk about is way over my head.
You might be suprised how quickly you get used to it. I certainly was.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: TimothyHD on February 22, 2018, 05:40:02 PM
Hello fellow Mac Mini users!  :D My name is Tim. I have recently acquired a 1.42 PowerPC Mac Mini, and have read up on the thread. I am getting it tomorrow, and I'm hoping to contribute to this cause! I see you've all made ground breaking work in the past few months!! Keep it up!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 22, 2018, 06:45:40 PM
You might be suprised how quickly you get used to it. I certainly was.

Daniel sure was quick!

Quick confession about the patch that I made to the USB class driver to get it to work without a PMU: I "saved" it in a scrollback buffer that I very quickly lost. But with some wrangling it has been recovered!

https://github.com/elliotnunn/mac-rom/commit/ac2112a (https://github.com/elliotnunn/mac-rom/commit/ac2112a)

The complementary patch to NativePowerMgrLib is in the newworld-rom repo.

https://github.com/elliotnunn/newworld-rom/commit/0b73e80 (https://github.com/elliotnunn/newworld-rom/commit/0b73e80)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: macStuff on February 22, 2018, 06:57:00 PM
Good news, nobody sharked my bid for a Mini on Ebay, so I'll have one in about a week 8)


congrats!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 23, 2018, 11:05:23 PM
  I just snagged a 1.5GHz G4 Mini on eBay, so I'll officially be able to help with this project once it arrives!

I received my Mini today.  Mildly unfortunate - what showed up was a 1.42GHz instead of the 1.5GHz model it was listed as.  (I'll bitch at the seller tomorrow.)  On the up-side, it has 1GB of RAM.

  I went straight into testing a 9.2.2 drive that I've been using for awhile in another machine.  It was made from the "Unsupported G4s ASR", and I believe it's the one that I was using in the 9serve.  I attached it via firewire so I could leave the OS X install on the internal drive intact.  The only thing I swapped out was the Mac OS ROM file.  The disk was selected for boot using the option key method.

  Amazingly, only a single extension out of everything I normally have enabled broke the boot - "Apple Audio Extension".  After disabling that it booted properly, obviously without audio support, but it booted extremely fast.  Video detected a single resolution of 1920x1080, which is correct for this monitor, but predictably it's only offering 256-color mode.  Something is causing a Finder crash when it reaches the desktop but I have yet to determine what it is.  One weird thing is that the Apple menu won't enable the submenu for the Control Panels folder.

  There is one strange twist with the disabling of the PMU device.  For some reason the system identifies this Mini model as an iBook.  Without power management loading the system obviously complains when reaching the desktop that the software is missing.  The weird part is that after a few minutes of use a warning came up saying the system was low on power, as if it was running on a battery, and then promptly shut down because it thought it needed to protect itself.  I removed the Energy Saver control panel to prevent this from happening again, leading to the missing software warning every boot.

  Everything else seems to work.  The AppleTalk control panel even states there's a serial port available, presumably because it recognizes the modem.

  Now for the coolest part - I'm posting this from Classilla running on this Mini!  (This is getting a bit challenging on Classilla because compatibility with this forum is not as good as it used to be.)

Edit - One additional note - The device info for the Radeon 9200 in this thing is as follows:

Device name: "ATY,RockHopper2_A"
Chipset: "ATY,RV280"
Device ID: 5962
ROM: 113-xxxxx-116
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: macStuff on February 24, 2018, 07:47:43 AM
wonder if the device ID extension edit fix of user Bolle's would help you out there?
DeviceID: 5962 (instead of Bolle's 9200SE with the id of 5961?)

both of them are RV280 gpus
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 24, 2018, 09:33:55 PM
  No luck on the 2D acceleration yet.  I don't know if I'm doing it wrong or if something more has to be changed.

  I do have one minor thing to report on related to the Finder crash and warning message about missing system software.  (The exact text of that message was as follows - "Your computer can't sleep because some system software is missing.  Reinstall the software that came with your computer.  [Shut Down] [OK]")  Just to see what would happen, I did the "screamer" OF edit to the sound device using the commands from one of the iBooks.  The Apple Audio Extension no longer crashes the boot with this change in place.  Oddly though, the Finder crash and the missing system software warning at the desktop also went away.  The sound device itself doesn't appear in the Sound control panel though and obviously doesn't work.  Perhaps this experience will help someone sort out how to correct it properly though.

  I'm still really curious about why the AppleTalk control panel reports "Modem/Printer port" available and doesn't complain when I select it and save the setting.  System Profiler doesn't know the internal modem is present, but even after physically disconnecting the modem card from the motherboard, some other device is still recognized as this 'phantom' serial port.  I'd really like to know what's going on here and whether or not this means I could hack in a true serial port in place of the modem or via whatever other data path this detected port is showing up on.  You'll recall on the 9serve that I had to use the Stealth driver to make the built-in serial port appear to AppleTalk.  Serial ports only show up in AppleTalk without 3rd-party assistance if they are physically present as a standard serial device (or perhaps emulated, but I think that's unlikely).  I find it hard to believe that I'm seeing a 'false positive' here.  Is it a populated debug port?

  Another thing I'm wondering about is to do with the USB ports.  System Profiler reports three USB ports present - Ports 1 and 2 are the external ones, while Port 0 which comes first I can only assume is for the bluetooth card.  My Mini doesn't have the mezzenine board for Airport/bluetooth, so I can't prove it.  The bluetooth card that would go in a G4 Mini appears to be the same one that is in the MDD.  I've seen a reference online showing which pins are the USB data lines on the bluetooth connector, and the implication is that you could probably get a functional extra USB port wired from here in place of the bluetooth.  You just would have to pull the USB power from somewhere else, or at the very least dedicate a powered hub to this connection.

  Does anyone need to see NanoKernel Logs from my Mini or are we past that stage now?  If we don't need it anymore I'd like to be able to boot this ROM with the function disabled so it quits getting in the way.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 25, 2018, 02:37:25 AM
Quote
Does anyone need to see NanoKernel Logs from my Mini or are we past that stage now?  If we don't need it anymore I'd like to be able to boot this ROM with the function disabled so it quits getting in the way.

I too was wanting to disable this, you can close it with Command+F2.

There are a couple of resources in the ATI Graphics Accelerator that have the Device ID for the 9200, make sure you change them all.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 25, 2018, 08:54:02 AM
Quote
Does anyone need to see NanoKernel Logs from my Mini or are we past that stage now?  If we don't need it anymore I'd like to be able to boot this ROM with the function disabled so it quits getting in the way.

I too was wanting to disable this, you can close it with Command+F2.

There are a couple of resources in the ATI Graphics Accelerator that have the Device ID for the 9200, make sure you change them all.

  I'm pretty sure I changed those also, but I'll double-check.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 25, 2018, 08:33:45 PM
I've been poking around at the ATI extensions with HexEdit, and have noted the following:

- ATI Graphics Accelerator - resource fork contains 5960
- ATI Resource Manager - data fork contains 5961
- ATI Video Accelerator - resource fork contains 5960

  Changing all the values to 5962 still hasn't got acceleration working.  The ATI Graphics Accelerator extension always has an X through it during startup.

  I was looking at a listing of ATI device entries online here:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2007-February/022012.html (https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2007-February/022012.html)

  There are entries for 5960, 5961 and 5962 with official ATI device type titles.  I looked for other values in the list related to the RV280 to see if I could find them in the extensions.  Changing a couple others didn't help either.  So I'm stuck so far - hopefully someone else will have more luck.  It's probably something really stupidly simple.  I presume this isn't going to work until the driver loads properly in the first place, which would be indicated by having all the modes available in the Monitors control panel.  Nothing I've changed gave me any options other than the 1920x1080 / 256 color mode it is locked to.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: grhmhome on February 25, 2018, 11:37:28 PM
I bought a G4 Mac Mini and upgraded the system to 1GB of ram in December. I was originally going to run only Morph OS, but I love Mac OS 9, and would rather run that. I miss playing Glider Pro. I used to run Mac OS 9 when I had a G4 eMac. This is the system I have. https://everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac_mini_g4_1.33.html

I'm willing to use my machine as a beta test machine to attempt to get Mac OS 9.x to install as I spent only $16.99 USD + shipping.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 26, 2018, 02:57:56 AM
I too was wanting to disable this, you can close it with Command+F2.

Whoa… how did you know about that?!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on February 26, 2018, 03:29:51 AM
I too was wanting to disable this, you can close it with Command+F2.

Whoa… how did you know about that?!
I don't know how the history behind it, but it looks like a simple screen refresh. It cleans the screen, but the NK keeps putting up log entries every once in a while.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 26, 2018, 03:40:41 AM
Ah, darn.

Here is a fresh copy of the ROM using the new build system. It differs from Mac OS ROM 9.6.1 in only these ways:
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 26, 2018, 09:26:42 AM
  Command+F2 didn't close it for me, although I have QuicKeys installed and it may be interfering with that key combo somehow.

  Perhaps the change in machine type will allow me to put the Energy Saver control panel back in and also eliminate the false dead battery auto-shutdown.  I may be able to let my screen sleep then at least.  It appears the CPU fan speed is controlled by independent logic, as it apparently does in my TiBook, because it doesn't run at full speed.  Initially it does when first powering the system, but then it immediately settles down to a more 'relaxed' pace.

  I'll try that new ROM today and report back.

Update - New ROM causes bomb-crash error type 102 immediately after the Mac OS splash-screen appears.  I presume it has something to do with the issue/resolution described here:

http://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=305#p305 (http://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=305#p305)

  Something about your change to the machine type?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 26, 2018, 11:18:28 AM
  Upon closer inspection, ResEdit says the new ROM has no resource fork.  The previous ROM has it, although ResEdit throws a warning saying it had to perform a minor repair on it when the file is opened.  Could you check the new ROM file on your end?

  Would it be possible to eventually use the correct Mini machine identifier and add it to the name table so it displays correctly in System Profiler?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 26, 2018, 11:46:46 AM
  Weird observation - I didn't catch this right away and I don't know what part of all my screwing around caused it, could have even been just related to a PRAM or PMU reset, but the video mode is now millions of colors.  It still won't let me change it to anything else, but at least it's better than 256.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: grhmhome on February 26, 2018, 12:17:52 PM
Was anyone successful in installing Mac OS 9.x with a retail disc on their G4 Mac Minis or were they only able to boot with a hard-drive from another machine? I would like to install this, but I would like to know what steps I would need to take, like which version of Mac OS 9.x retail disc I should buy on eBay and how do I use custom system roms? Thanks for your time.

Edit: I found the unsupported G4 easy install version of Mac OS 09. I could try this and replace with the proper roms and use open firmware to spoof my system. I was able to spoof my eMac when I had one so I could run Leopard.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 26, 2018, 02:43:21 PM
Something about your change to the machine type?

Yep. Apparently the last Power Macs to work without a System Enabler were the graphite G4s. So I have now set the machine type to PowerMac 3,4 (Cube), which seems appropriate. I doubt that any desktop Macs of that age require special power management logic in the OS.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 26, 2018, 04:26:34 PM
  I'm still ending up with a decoded file that has no resource fork.  It comes out of the .hqx with proper icon and name in OS 9, but if I download and decode it on OS X the original good file and the new bad file have different icons from each other.

  The end result is still the same - error type 102.  It's weird, since the ROM I was using from post #203 came out right.  Did you change something in your workflow?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 26, 2018, 05:08:40 PM
The absent resource fork is normal, and in common with earlier releases of the ROM. The resource fork allows the file to act as an Enabler, separately from its “ROM” function. I have stopped including that part since refactoring the build system into the three repos linked above.

I *also* changed some of the Forth code that governs model compatibility. I will revisit this shortly!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 26, 2018, 06:02:46 PM
  Okay, got it.  I guess something else is causing the error type 102 then?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 26, 2018, 07:18:28 PM
Got my Mini, but I'm having all sorts of trouble with it.

Fails to launch the ASP when booted from the internal HD, so I don't have any input. USB only starts working after ASP loads.

ATI,RockHopper2 'NDRV' from Leopard( 10.5.8 ) seem to be incompatible with OS 9. My screen go black when the finder should load, then come back with a grey screen with only the mouse. More work needed, I'll have to check earlier versions of the RockHopper2 'NDRV'.

If you install the latest OS 9 ATI drivers, you can load the ATY,Bugsy 'NDRV'. It seems to work, somewhat, screen res changes, but I have no input so I haven't been able to fully test it.

Install last ATI drivers, boot into Open Firmware( Command+Opt+O+F ).

Code: [Select]
dev agp/@10/@0
" ATY,Bugsy" encode-string " compatible" property
bye

I can boot from my PowerBook in target disk mode, but the same System Folder won't work on the internal drive.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 26, 2018, 09:48:54 PM
  I tried out "Bugsy" and found it didn't work on DVI but did come up as you described on VGA.  The native resolution for my LCD wasn't available with a low enough refresh rate.  Most of the options that were available had absurdly high refresh rates, although SwitchRes knew enough to flag most of them as no-go for my LCD.

  For kicks I threw a number of other device names at it.  Success was varied, but "Bugsy" is the only one that will allow multiple resolutions.

  The original shipping release of OS X on the G4 Mini was 10.3.7, so I don't know if we can pull a functional NDRV for this machine from anything earlier than that.  Was this chipset available on other machines, and if so, on an earlier version of OS X?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 27, 2018, 01:10:00 AM
Ok, thanks, I'll try some earlier versions of the 'NDRV' and see how they go.

BTW, are you having trouble with USB?

If not, are you using the boot 3 resource in the System Suitcase?

I know it is necessary on my powerbook6,8, but I'm not sure it's needed on the Mini. USB stops working when the System Suitcase loads, and doesn't start again until Apple Systems Profiler opens.

I have ASP in my Startup Items. 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 27, 2018, 04:54:39 AM
I cooked up an 'NDRV' from Tiger( 10.4.0 ), it had the same issue with my VGA display( Grey screen after system boot changed the screen res )

Connecting to DVI to HDMI let me boot, and everything was detected correctly, monitor, proper screen res., Vram, but changing the screen res or bit depth resulted in a proper screen res, but had the grey screen issue with an active mouse.

However I just remembered I hacked the Mac OS ROM for the built in display of the iBook, so I'll try and redownload the ROM and see if that changes anything.

Otherwise we're going to have to hope that 10.3.x has a compatible 'NDRV' or anything else ( 2D/3D ) will be a non-starter.

I was really hoping this was going to work, as OS 9 is useless to me without 2D/3D acell.

No great loss, I have a Dual 1Ghz Quicksilver with a Radeon 9000 that works just fine with OS 9.

I also get the type 2 error with ELN's latest Rom, but USB works, disabling the extension did nothing.

As it is, the system is just far to unstable, sometimes it boots, sometimes the ASP and Finder fail and I can't use the System, because I have no input until ASP loads.

These Mini's are turning out to be more trouble than they are worth for OS 9 booting, I'll give it another go, but if I can't figure way the system is hanging, I'm just going to run X on it. 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 27, 2018, 05:23:45 AM
Here is the RockHopper2 'NDRV', likely won't work with VGA. It's a good idea to trash your display preference before you try and boot it.

 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 27, 2018, 07:48:07 AM
Sorry about my frequent absences! I’ve just started a new uni rotation where attendance is “strongly encouraged”.

I can’t say much about graphics acceleration. But I’d say that the general instability of the system is due to my no-PMU hack. Once we get a real PMU driver working, I expect this to go away.

Then, I wil focus on patching one of these almost-working ndrvs.

And I will get a fresh working ROM through to you all soon!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 27, 2018, 10:36:18 AM
Ok, thanks, I'll try some earlier versions of the 'NDRV' and see how they go.

BTW, are you having trouble with USB?

If not, are you using the boot 3 resource in the System Suitcase?

I know it is necessary on my powerbook6,8, but I'm not sure it's needed on the Mini. USB stops working when the System Suitcase loads, and doesn't start again until Apple Systems Profiler opens.

I have ASP in my Startup Items.

  The funny thing is, I've had no problem with USB at all nor any other strange problems, other than the system shutting down once from the phantom battery warning.  I'm using a pre-exisiting 9.2.2 drive created from the Unsupported G4s ASR, final ATI drivers, Multiprocessing/Apple Audio Extension/Energy Saver Control Panel disabled.  The only unusual additions are SwitchRes and USB Overdrive, although I highly doubt these made any difference.  (USB Overdrive doesn't set any features properly on the A1152 mouse I'm using right now anyway.)  The only other problem I have is the need to force-quit the Finder once upon reaching the desktop, and this is only due to the non-working sound device.  Well, that and the Control Panels sub-menu never working from the Apple Menu.  The Finder force-quit isn't needed if I set the "screamer" compatible property to the sound device in OF first.  There's still a warning pop-up about missing software preventing sleep capability, which will be related either to the sound or video device.  The boot drive works internally or on firewire externally with no difference other than the need to enter the Option-hold boot menu to get at the firewire.

  Where specifically would you suggest I copy/paste that NDRV to?  Should it be added at the end of the file or replace an existing section?  Or do I just use it directly as an additional extension?

Update - Okay, so it clearly loads this file as an additional extension.  On DVI and VGA it leads to a grey screen with mouse pointer when the Finder should load.  I have to reset PRAM after this to clear the problem once the extension is disabled.  Seems like a good start though.  We may have to compare NDRV content between older and newer versions of other devices to see what's changed or missing in the OS X NDRV.  It's got to be something fairly simple, presumably missing code related to the old code model of desktop rendering.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 27, 2018, 10:22:59 PM
Do us a favour and try this one?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 28, 2018, 03:13:38 AM
The 'NDRV' from 10.3.7 seems to work with OS 9( Digital Not Tested ).

I modified the ATI drivers to load for our Mini's.

They are buggy, but they work, somewhat

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4277.0.html
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 28, 2018, 03:26:42 AM
Do us a favour and try this one?

A lot cleaner, but system bombs out after long spinning wheel, just after Ethernet loads.

Same as an unpatched  PowerBook6,8.

Does the Rom require the Boot 3 resource in the System Suitcase?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 28, 2018, 04:00:14 AM
Ok so I just reset the NVRAM with cmd+alt+n+v and now this address error has gone for ever. I can use these new roms.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 28, 2018, 04:16:58 AM
Yes, it still requires the patched boot 3. It’d be good to dive further into the Component Manager loafing code and see just why the boot 3 change is required.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on February 28, 2018, 05:00:07 AM
Yes, it still requires the patched boot 3. It’d be good to dive further into the Component Manager loafing code and see just why the boot 3 change is required.

I gave it a go with boot 3, but system hangs, I think it's loading the QuickDraw3D driver.

Booting with the shift key results in an Address Error.

I'll try with less extensions later, got to do some real world stuff for a few days.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 28, 2018, 07:07:01 AM
  I haven't been doing this boot 3 patch at all and yet have a working system.  I have no idea why it works for me.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on February 28, 2018, 08:01:41 AM
Me neither! Does the new ROM work for you?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on February 28, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
Me neither! Does the new ROM work for you?
Works for me if I reset PRAM, then NVRAM, then restart then it boots but certain extensions prevent it. By the way I am using a system suitcase with the boot 3 in from a previous rom.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on February 28, 2018, 08:32:49 AM
Me neither! Does the new ROM work for you?

  It hangs with pinwheel shortly after Open Transport extension loads and the progress bar hops a bit forward.  It eventually switches the pinwheel to a bomb.  I tried booting with no extensions except darthnVader's new ATI stuff, tried with no control panels, same result.

  I'll be back this evening to look at it further.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on February 28, 2018, 05:54:11 PM
According to wikipedia there are several varients of the G4 Mini. The differences seem mostly superficial, but I note that the max VRAM differs from model to model. I have no clue what else it could be.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 02, 2018, 09:50:46 PM
Progress!

As we all know, a stock copy of Mac OS 9, when run on the Mac mini, will freeze early in the boot process. By inspecting and editing the 68k ROM code in StartInit.a, I isolated this crash to the Power Manager initialisation code. By inspecting and editing the PowerPC code in the NativePowerMgrLib parcel, I further isolated it to the PMInitialize function, in particular the part that calls code in a "PMU plugin" parcel. (PMU = "Power Management Unit".) I assumed at this point that the mini had a PMU for which no Mac OS 9 plugin had been written. To get the machine booting, I made a tiny change to the NativePowerMgrLib to make it ignore the PMU.

Mac OS 9 does not like going without a working PMU! To work around this, patches are required to the Component Manager init code and to the USB family expert, and many system extensions must be removed. This is an inelegant hack and as some of you have noticed, results in a very unstable system.

Luckily, it turns out that I was wrong about the PMU in the Mac mini. Its Open Firmware properties describe it as a 9-compatible "PMU-99". In fact, the Trampoline bootloader notices this and loads the PMU-99 plugin ndrv. The NativePowerMgrLib actually behaves correctly. It is the plugin that causes the crash.

I have been disassembling and editing the PMU-99 plugin to determine why it crashes on the mini. The answer seems to be simple: the "prim-info" property is missing from the PMU-99 "power-mgt" node in the device tree. Spoofing this property gets me past primary Power Manager initialisation, but not past secondary initialisation. I am working on this now.

Attached is a ROM that gets past primary initialisation with a zeroed-out "prim-info". You can get it past secondary initialisation by holding down the shift key at boot. Use an unpatched boot 3.

Could mini-watchers please help out by posting the contents of the "prim-info" properties on their machines? Also, any technical information about this property would be very useful. I have looked at the Linux driver code but no further.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 02, 2018, 10:43:50 PM
Does anyone remember the old Apple tech note on two machine debugging that told how to directly connect two Mac's with an ethernet cable?

One of my routers died and I can't connect my Mac's via ethernet to my router via ethernet.

I'd like to be able to dump the "prim-info" property to help ELN debug the PMU.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 02, 2018, 11:01:01 PM
EDIT: Sorry my eyes going bad on me, and I didn't fully read what you said. I gave the "pmu-info" rather than the "prim-info".


My mini doesn't appear to have that property under the power-mgt.

iBook G4 1.33 12":
000000ff 00000060 00003e80 00017fb5 0202d607 00000000 00011300 46000220 101400

PowerBook G4 1.5 12" same as above.

Ibook G3 600 is the same as above.

My QuickSilver Dual 1.0 Ghz
000000ff 0000002c 00030d40 0001e705 00003400 00000000 0000260d 46000278 783c00

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 03, 2018, 03:09:10 AM
Thanks darthnVader! Your results accord with some that I dug up. But are those last six digits spurious in each case?

Here is a ROM file that patches prim-info using Forth. There are no other patches!

This gets us past primary and secondary Power Manager init (the latter only if the Apple CPU Plugins file is removed). My mini freezes after loading the Finder unless extensions are disabled. I isolated the offending extension to one starting with A, B, C or D but then had to stop work for the day. Can anyone figure this out for me?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 03, 2018, 03:10:36 AM
Here are my notes on prim-info.

Code: [Select]
iBook G4            000000ff 00000060 00003e80 00017fb5 0202d607 00000000 00011300 46000220
Power Mac G4 MDD    000000ff 0000002c 00030d40 0001e705 00003400 00000000 0000260d 46000270

                                               ^^^^^^^^ public PM features
                                                        ^^^^^^^^ private PM features
                                                                          ^^^^ batt count

FROM THE DARWIN SOURCES:

// PUBLIC power management features
// NOTE: this is a direct port from classic, some of these bits
//       are obsolete but are included for completeness
enum {
  kPMHasWakeupTimerMask        = (1<<0),  // 1=wake timer is supported
  kPMHasSharedModemPortMask    = (1<<1),  // Not used
  kPMHasProcessorCyclingMask   = (1<<2),  // 1=processor cycling supported
  kPMMustProcessorCycleMask    = (1<<3),  // Not used
  kPMHasReducedSpeedMask       = (1<<4),  // 1=supports reduced processor speed
  kPMDynamicSpeedChangeMask    = (1<<5),  // 1=supports changing processor speed on the fly
  kPMHasSCSIDiskModeMask       = (1<<6),  // 1=supports using machine as SCSI drive
  kPMCanGetBatteryTimeMask     = (1<<7),  // 1=battery time can be calculated
  kPMCanWakeupOnRingMask       = (1<<8),  // 1=machine can wake on modem ring
  kPMHasDimmingSupportMask     = (1<<9),  // 1=has monitor dimming support
  kPMHasStartupTimerMask       = (1<<10), // 1=can program startup timer
  kPMHasChargeNotificationMask = (1<<11), // 1=client can determine charger status/get notifications
  kPMHasDimSuspendSupportMask  = (1<<12), // 1=can dim diplay to DPMS ('off') state
  kPMHasWakeOnNetActivityMask  = (1<<13), // 1=supports waking upon receipt of net packet
  kPMHasWakeOnLidMask          = (1<<14), // 1=can wake upon lid/case opening
  kPMCanPowerOffPCIBusMask     = (1<<15), // 1=can remove power from PCI bus on sleep
  kPMHasDeepSleepMask          = (1<<16), // 1=supports deep (hibernation) sleep
  kPMHasSleepMask              = (1<<17), // 1=machine support low power sleep (ala powerbooks)
  kPMSupportsServerModeAPIMask = (1<<18), // 1=supports reboot on AC resume for unexpected power loss
  kPMHasUPSIntegrationMask     = (1<<19)  // 1=supports incorporating UPS devices into power source calcs
};

// PRIVATE power management features
// NOTE: this is a direct port from classic, some of these bits
//       are obsolete but are included for completeness.
enum {
  kPMHasExtdBattInfoMask       = (1<<0),  // Not used
  kPMHasBatteryIDMask          = (1<<1),  // Not used
  kPMCanSwitchPowerMask        = (1<<2),  // Not used
  kPMHasCelsiusCyclingMask     = (1<<3),  // Not used
  kPMHasBatteryPredictionMask  = (1<<4),  // Not used
  kPMHasPowerLevelsMask        = (1<<5),  // Not used
  kPMHasSleepCPUSpeedMask      = (1<<6),  // Not used
  kPMHasBtnIntHandlersMask     = (1<<7),  // 1=supports individual button interrupt handlers
  kPMHasSCSITermPowerMask      = (1<<8),  // 1=supports SCSI termination power switch
  kPMHasADBButtonHandlersMask  = (1<<9),  // 1=supports button handlers via ADB
  kPMHasICTControlMask         = (1<<10), // 1=supports ICT control
  kPMHasLegacyDesktopSleepMask = (1<<11), // 1=supports 'doze' style sleep
  kPMHasDeepIdleMask           = (1<<12), // 1=supports Idle2 in hardware
  kPMOpenLidPreventsSleepMask  = (1<<13), // 1=open case prevent machine from sleeping
  kPMClosedLidCausesSleepMask  = (1<<14), // 1=case closed (clamshell closed) causes sleep
  kPMHasFanControlMask         = (1<<15), // 1=machine has software-programmable fan/thermostat controls
  kPMHasThermalControlMask     = (1<<16), // 1=machine supports thermal monitoring
  kPMHasVStepSpeedChangeMask   = (1<<17), // 1=machine supports processor voltage/clock change
  kPMEnvironEventsPolledMask   = (1<<18)  // 1=machine doesn't generate pmu env ints, we must poll instead
};

// DEFAULT public and private features for machines whose device tree
// does NOT contain this information (pre-Core99).

// For Cuda-based Desktops

#define kStdDesktopPMFeatures   kPMHasWakeupTimerMask         |\
                                kPMHasProcessorCyclingMask    |\
                                kPMHasDimmingSupportMask      |\
                                kPMHasStartupTimerMask        |\
                                kPMSupportsServerModeAPIMask  |\
                                kPMHasUPSIntegrationMask

#define kStdDesktopPrivPMFeatures  kPMHasExtdBattInfoMask     |\
                                   kPMHasICTControlMask       |\
                                   kPMHasLegacyDesktopSleepMask

#define kStdDesktopNumBatteries 0

// For Wallstreet (PowerBook G3 Series 1998)

#define kWallstreetPMFeatures   kPMHasWakeupTimerMask         |\
                                kPMHasProcessorCyclingMask    |\
                                kPMHasReducedSpeedMask        |\
                                kPMDynamicSpeedChangeMask     |\
                                kPMHasSCSIDiskModeMask        |\
                                kPMCanGetBatteryTimeMask      |\
                                kPMHasDimmingSupportMask      |\
                                kPMHasChargeNotificationMask  |\
                                kPMHasDimSuspendSupportMask   |\
                                kPMHasSleepMask

#define kWallstreetPrivPMFeatures  kPMHasExtdBattInfoMask      |\
                                   kPMHasBatteryIDMask         |\
                                   kPMCanSwitchPowerMask       |\
                                   kPMHasADBButtonHandlersMask |\
                                   kPMHasSCSITermPowerMask     |\
                                   kPMHasICTControlMask        |\
                                   kPMClosedLidCausesSleepMask |\
                                   kPMEnvironEventsPolledMask

#define kStdPowerBookPMFeatures      kWallstreetPMFeatures
#define kStdPowerBookPrivPMFeatures  kWallstreetPrivPMFeatures

#define kStdPowerBookNumBatteries 2

// For 101 (PowerBook G3 Series 1999)

#define k101PMFeatures          kPMHasWakeupTimerMask         |\
                                kPMHasProcessorCyclingMask    |\
                                kPMHasReducedSpeedMask        |\
                                kPMDynamicSpeedChangeMask     |\
                                kPMHasSCSIDiskModeMask        |\
                                kPMCanGetBatteryTimeMask      |\
                                kPMHasDimmingSupportMask      |\
                                kPMHasChargeNotificationMask  |\
                                kPMHasDimSuspendSupportMask   |\
                                kPMHasSleepMask               |\
                                kPMHasUPSIntegrationMask

#define k101PrivPMFeatures      kPMHasExtdBattInfoMask        |\
                                kPMHasBatteryIDMask           |\
                                kPMCanSwitchPowerMask         |\
                                kPMHasADBButtonHandlersMask   |\
                                kPMHasSCSITermPowerMask       |\
                                kPMHasICTControlMask          |\
                                kPMClosedLidCausesSleepMask   |\
                                kPMEnvironEventsPolledMask

#define IOPMNoErr       0   // normal return

                        // returned by powerStateWillChange and powerStateDidChange:
#define IOPMAckImplied      0   // acknowledgement of power state change is implied
#define IOPMWillAckLater    1   // acknowledgement of power state change will come later

                        // returned by requestDomainState
#define IOPMBadSpecification    4   // unrecognized specification parameter
#define IOPMNoSuchState     5   // no power state matches search specification

#define IOPMCannotRaisePower    6   // a device cannot change its power for some reason

                        // returned by changeStateTo
#define IOPMParameterError  7   // requested state doesn't exist
#define IOPMNotYetInitialized   8   // device not yet fully hooked into power management "graph"
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 03, 2018, 03:30:49 AM
Thanks darthnVader! Your results accord with some that I dug up. But are those last six digits spurious in each case?

Here is a ROM file that patches prim-info using Forth. There are no other patches!

This gets us past primary and secondary Power Manager init (the latter only if the Apple CPU Plugins file is removed). My mini freezes after loading the Finder unless extensions are disabled. I isolated the offending extension to one starting with A, B, C or D but then had to stop work for the day. Can anyone figure this out for me?

I gave the latest Rom a try, ASP reports the system is a G4 Cube, but if I try and sleep the system, I get the message:

The System can not sleep until the case is closed. Please close the case and try again.

So if we can set a bit in the "prim-info" that makes the system think the case is closed, lets see if that will enable sleep.

Likely, the Finder not loading is the Apple CD/DVD extension.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 03, 2018, 04:33:20 AM
I opened the case on my Quicksilver, and checked the IOReg, but the "prim-info" didn't change.

OS 9 nor OS X seems to care if the case is open, they both sleep just fine.

I'm not sure if the Quicksilver has the case switch, I remember the G5 has one, I don't know about the Cube.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 03, 2018, 06:10:58 AM
The prim-info property does not change after boot. It just tells the OS how to behave under certain conditions.

Try this one. I have unset the "open case prevent machine from sleeping" bit.

By the way, does anyone have trouble with the mini fans running loud?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 03, 2018, 06:31:47 AM
The prim-info property does not change after boot. It just tells the OS how to behave under certain conditions.

Try this one. I have unset the "open case prevent machine from sleeping" bit.

By the way, does anyone have trouble with the mini fans running loud?
ELN, I got a tiBook and I can finally format and install on to my mini without the use of dodgy emulators then restoring. This latest ROM does seem to make the fans run loud on the mini.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 03, 2018, 08:15:47 AM
The prim-info property does not change after boot. It just tells the OS how to behave under certain conditions.

Try this one. I have unset the "open case prevent machine from sleeping" bit.

By the way, does anyone have trouble with the mini fans running loud?

I haven't really noticed a loud fan,  lots of heat coming out the back, the fan seems pretty quite.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 03, 2018, 08:33:24 AM
The prim-info property does not change after boot. It just tells the OS how to behave under certain conditions.

Try this one. I have unset the "open case prevent machine from sleeping" bit.


No dice on sleep, the system reports missing software and asks for a reinstall, but I only have minimal extensions enabled for internet, USB, and graphics.

So a full install may get us further.

Just figured it was worth a shot while you were working with the PMU to see what we could learn.

The Mini doesn't draw a great deal of power, but anything we can learn about the PMU and how it responds to OS 9 and it's drivers may help us if we ever want to get sleep working on the unsupported mobiles.

Not really a priority, getting the system stable, and loading as many extensions as we can. the Apple CD/DVD extension seems to be troublesome, if at some point we want to make a bootable disc for the Mini we'll need to figure why it is causing the Finder to hang, and see if there is anything we can do to fix it.


 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 03, 2018, 08:42:07 AM
The prim-info property does not change after boot. It just tells the OS how to behave under certain conditions.

Try this one. I have unset the "open case prevent machine from sleeping" bit.

By the way, does anyone have trouble with the mini fans running loud?

I haven't really noticed a loud fan,  lots of heat coming out the back, the fan seems pretty quite.
Yes that is a better description. It does sounds louder than normal, do you notice this or sounds normal to you?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 03, 2018, 08:48:31 AM
Ah now the fans are normal, quiet for me, after a restart, could be because I added a few more extensions in.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 03, 2018, 09:09:24 AM
  I just tried the latest ROM from post 256.  This finally allowed a complete boot without the need for a force-quit when the Finder loads.  This was with all normal extensions loaded but still minus Apple Audio Extension and the Energy Saver control panel.  With the exception of sleep not working, everything else seems to be normal.

  Given this result, and that the machine is no longer declared to be an iBook, I put the remaining extension and control panel back in.  It was also able to boot right through to the desktop without error or hang, and no sign yet of the prior "battery warning shutdown".  I set the display sleep time to the minimum to see if it would blank the display, but it didn't do it.  Seeing as I avoid sleeping any of my OS 9-and-earlier machines, I'm not much concerned about that.  Fan is also showing no change in behavior.

  With the audio extension back in place, the Sound control panel actually detects the built-in sound as an output device.  The volume slider stays pinned at zero though.  It's part-way there but isn't being handled properly yet.  Also, the way we're running now, setting the "screamer" property on the sound device actually causes it not to show up in the Sound control panel at all.  It's really nice that at this point I don't have to do anything in OF to get a smooth boot every time, even if certain things aren't working yet.

  Nice progress!  Would you do a version of the current ROM without the logging enabled?  My Mini is working well-enough right now that it could be assigned to real tasks, so I'd like to not have the window popping up in the way.  I'd be quite satisfied without sound if we can just work out the final glitches in the video driver so I can run full-res and hopefully on DVI instead of just VGA.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 03, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
  I was becoming suspicious that the issues I've been having with video on the Mini with the new drivers is a problem with correct detection of the monitor modes.  It turns out DVI does work - I booted to a black screen on my 1920x1080 monitor and then switched the connector to a different monitor that is 1280x1024.  Well, gee, there's the desktop now.  The monitor name and proper resolution choices appear in the Monitors control panel.

  Here's where the weirdness comes in - I have SwitchRes running, and it holds onto the original settings that were detected by the system during boot when the first monitor was attached.  I've never seen settings like this before.  Here's what it listed:

- 32 x 32
- 640 x 480 ~1Hz
- 800 x 600 ~1Hz
- Black & White
(graphics acceleration fails also due to this faulty detection mode)

  Obviously this explains the problem with my higher resolution monitor.  There's some issue with the EDID handling just after the happy Mac shows up, presumably as the extensions start loading and it tries to automatically switch to another resolution.  Even on the monitor that will detect good resolutions, if you switch the control panel list to "All" it shows some very strange options with 60.01974Hz refresh rates and options for stretched proportioning which don't apply to this 4:3 LCD.

  If we can sort out why this is happening then we'll probably have a perfect driver.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 03, 2018, 02:22:10 PM
My Aluminium 20" Cinema Display uses DVI, I do get Finder icons repeated on the screen, "Mac OS Default" instead of just pure purply/blue desktop background. Seems all good from the beginning of testing. 1680x1050 runs and that is the displays full resolution, directly to the DVI.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 03, 2018, 04:55:57 PM
  I was becoming suspicious that the issues I've been having with video on the Mini with the new drivers is a problem with correct detection of the monitor modes.  It turns out DVI does work - I booted to a black screen on my 1920x1080 monitor and then switched the connector to a different monitor that is 1280x1024.  Well, gee, there's the desktop now.  The monitor name and proper resolution choices appear in the Monitors control panel.

  Here's where the weirdness comes in - I have SwitchRes running, and it holds onto the original settings that were detected by the system during boot when the first monitor was attached.  I've never seen settings like this before.  Here's what it listed:

- 32 x 32
- 640 x 480 ~1Hz
- 800 x 600 ~1Hz
- Black & White
(graphics acceleration fails also due to this faulty detection mode)

  Obviously this explains the problem with my higher resolution monitor.  There's some issue with the EDID handling just after the happy Mac shows up, presumably as the extensions start loading and it tries to automatically switch to another resolution.  Even on the monitor that will detect good resolutions, if you switch the control panel list to "All" it shows some very strange options with 60.01974Hz refresh rates and options for stretched proportioning which don't apply to this 4:3 LCD.

  If we can sort out why this is happening then we'll probably have a perfect driver.

I don't know, the Mini itself seems to have trouble with 1080p/i.

I have a TV that the native res is 1366x768, that also supports 1080i. The Mini works fine for the native res, and all the lower resolutions, but no signal for 1080i.

When I connect to a 1080p TV, I get no signal at boot, which leads me to believe it's a problem with the 9200's in boot rom Fcode driver. As at bootup it normally reads the EDID of a digital display and tries to set the native res of an LCD display.

I just get no display at all from the 1080p TV.

I may have to install Timbuktu  and see if I can remote into the Mini with the 1080p display connected and see if I can select a lower res.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 03, 2018, 08:02:50 PM
  I'm still confused about what's going on though because the computer successfully starts up to the initial OS load screen or OF perfectly fine at 1920x1080p.  It's only once the OS gets involved that it tries to switch modes even though it shouldn't and gets black screen from there on.

  I just tried it with an older LCD TV which maxes out at 1920x1080i, much like the one you describe, using a DVI-to-HDMI adapter.  This produced no valid output at all at any stage of boot.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 03, 2018, 10:12:32 PM
Sorry about the log!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 04, 2018, 01:14:25 AM
Sorry about the log!

Thanks ELN, that seems to work well, tho I now get a bunch of NTSC TV resolutions.

I know the 9200 has a TV encoder, somehow you must have ticked it on in this latest Rom.

However now I'm able to use the Apple Audio and CD/DVD extensions. I'll have to check de-interlacing of a DVD and see if that function works without the ATI Video Accelerator.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 04, 2018, 08:20:46 AM
  It's amusing how the file name keeps growing longer and longer!  It's well past the point where the name cuts off during saving on OS 9 though, not that it matters much.

  I didn't get any changes to the available resolutions on my Mini.  However, without the log in the way I'm back to maximizing my windows, so posting this from Classilla on the Mini again!  As far as I can tell, I have a fully stable system (other than weirdness with highest video resolutions/EDID).

  The optical drive in my Mini is model CW-8123-C, which is supposed to be CDRW/DVD-ROM.  It accessed a CDR and a DVD+R disc fine in OS 9.  The hilarious part is, because I have the cover off the Mini, when the disc ejects there's no friction so it fires the disc right out onto the desk like an over-sprung toaster!

  Aside from lack of sleep ability, which I don't care about anyway, the only remaining issues for me are slightly wonky video support at highest resolutions, and no sound.  For a single-screen system I'd prefer to have the maximum resolution available, which if I've read correctly in specs is 1920x1200 for DVI and 1920x1080 for VGA on this 9200 variant.  I'll be sticking with 1280x1024 for now until we can resolve the detection/timing problems, if they are fixable on this 9200 at all.  I've read online about numerous issues with the Mini's DVI, issues that were resolved via ROM update on other 9200 cards but never updated on the Mini in ROM.  The ROM version in the Mini is 116.

  The sound part I'm getting the impression may need more than simple fixes.  OS 9 knows the device is present, but this may be only due to a basic declaration of the device in OF, and no indication of what is required to actually send data to it.  I read in a Linux forum that the "Toonie" i2s device in the Mini has no internal mixer nor much else as an interpretive mechanism.  Software has to do all the work to feed it the necessary signal.  This may require more than just a driver - it may require a new layer of software to work.  This is just my best guess given what I've read.  I'll leave it to the members more versed in the underlying coding to comment.  Will this be helped by stealing more code from OS X?  I don't know.

  Overall, great work!  I'm extremely pleased with what's been accomplished.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 04, 2018, 10:05:00 AM


  The optical drive in my Mini is model CW-8123-C, which is supposed to be CDRW/DVD-ROM.  It accessed a CDR and a DVD+R disc fine in OS 9.  The hilarious part is, because I have the cover off the Mini, when the disc ejects there's no friction so it fires the disc right out onto the desk like an over-sprung toaster!

 

That made my day, very funny.

I can envision a caseless Mini conected to a home alarm system firing saw blades from it's CD drive at wouldbe intruders.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 04, 2018, 08:40:48 PM
I think that the mini's inability to sleep, and the high heat output from the CPU, are both due to the unavailability of the CPU-specific power management calls in a CPU plugin. Working on it…
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 04, 2018, 09:43:36 PM
  Now that the machine is running as well as it is, I'm turning my attention to weeding out the 'mysterious' detected serial port.  First bet I'm making is that it's a debug port buried in the modem connector, as with so many other machines.  Going on this assumption, I'm trying to see how much of the modem board connector pinout I can map.

  If you remove the board and turn it upside down, you can see the connector is numbered 1 through 30 starting from the screw-hole end.  I may not be much good at tracing logic but I can get started with ground and power lines.  Process of elimination should allow me to get to the point where, if it looks promising, I can safely attempt patching in a stealth port or similar without causing a shower of sparks.

  My initial poking around indicates ground is connected at pins 2/3/8/15/19/20/28, and 3.3V power at 6/14/17.  Also, 24/26 are tied together on the motherboard.  If anyone here has a logic probe and a Mini, I'd appreciate some help in identifying the other pins.  I find it hard to believe that an I2S modem would require all of the remaining 20 pins.

  Going by the illustrations of the Jamport development on Alex Hixon's website, only seven wires are required to feed a serial port 'stealth' board.  If you factor in that 5 volt power is not available on the Mini's modem connector, that takes the requirement down to six on the connector (5 volts can be patched from elsewhere).  Power and ground are easy, leaving only five logic wires to get right.  Would this connector be the "MicroDash" type mentioned on Mr. Hixon's site?

  Alternatively, I'd like to know where the debug port chip itself is.  Mr. Hixon's website notes there is a 2x5-pin debug chip in the Powerbook G4 15" and 17" models.  I see a chip fitting that description near the rear-left of the motherboard next to the PATA riser connector.  Is that what I'm looking for?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 05, 2018, 03:10:37 AM
Oddly, I don't get any serial port detected.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 05, 2018, 08:25:26 AM
I have cracked the NanoKernel's mechanism to "upcall" a CPU plugin. This has given me some insight into the structure of the CPU plugins. More to come.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 05, 2018, 09:40:52 AM
Oddly, I don't get any serial port detected.

  I triple-checked to see if somehow I'd missed leaving the Stealth Port driver in the Extensions folder from when this drive was used on another machine, but no, it's not there.  It's not even on this drive at all.  AppleTalk is detecting what it thinks is a serial port and not erroring if I select it and save the setting.  This should not be possible without a device present that AppleTalk can communicate with.  It also can't appear as a device because of a saved preference, especially considering this setting is lost with a PRAM reset.  I'm very curious as to why it's showing on mine and not yours.

I have cracked the NanoKernel's mechanism to "upcall" a CPU plugin. This has given me some insight into the structure of the CPU plugins. More to come.

  Awesome.  This information should come in handy for a number of other things later.  Perhaps we'll finally understand what the single-character hack in the CPU Plugins file actually does in regards to enabling multiprocessing on the Sonnet CPU upgrades.  It would also be terrific if we could eventually do away with the need for many of the PRAM/firmware patches normally required for the various upgrade CPUs.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 05, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
I thought I was tenacious... you guys have me beat by a mile; this was started as a suggestion from Mactron in April 2015... and now will quite possibly be ready by April 2018 !   Let's get Audio going :)

Now since Mactron started this, he might have to put a "Mac Mini" sparse system together, and myself (or Someone with a mini) will have to inject all the necessary stuff into our current universal "unsupposted" image... Thus creating, a new ASR version of a self installing ASR full 9.2.2 system designed just for the Mini and wrap it all up in an ISO. 

Of course, you guys (the developers) will have to draw straws and let the other forums know of the Mac Mini success.. but let me get a cheap one on ebay first, before the bidding frenzy of OS 9 holdouts kicks in.

Lastly, please post summary list of the exact steps to get a virgin Mini up and running with proper Video, but no sound.  This may help other testers cause this is way too long to read thru even though it is awesome :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 05, 2018, 09:39:27 PM
...Lastly, please post summary list of the exact steps to get a virgin Mini up and running with proper Video, but no sound.  This may help other testers cause this is way too long to read thru even though it is awesome :)

  Since I seem to have had the least trouble with my particular Mini, a 1.42GHz model with 1GB of RAM, I'll state exactly what my setup is and the sequence to get there.

1. Use a known bootable 9.2.2 machine to create a new 9.2.2 drive from the Unsupported G4's ASR ISO image downloadable here:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2143.0.html (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2143.0.html)
(The details of burning this CD image and working with it should already be understood.  I won't explain it here because the process is not specific to any one machine type.  Use of any other OS 9.x installer or copying an existing System folder in whole or in part may not work properly.  Stick with this one - it's just about the only one you're ever going to need for any machine anyway.  Otherwise you'll just be pulling out your hair for no good reason, and I know many of you guys are old enough that you can't afford to do that. ;) Trust me, I still have a full head of hair...)

  I did this to a separate firewire-attached drive first for testing before eventually opening the Mini and swapping out the stock internal OS X drive for the one from the firewire enclosure.  Alternatively you can boot the Mini in firewire target disk mode by holding "t" at power-up and then mounting the internal drive on another machine via firewire cable to do the ASR process.  I went with a Kingspec PATA SSD rather than the original mechanical drive since I've had great luck and performance with these in Macs.

2. Remove the "Multiprocessing" folder from the System folder.  I did this as a precaution, perhaps not a necessity, but obviously you're not going to need it on this machine.  There's no sense chasing ghosts if you have a problem because of it.

3. Download the ROM in ELN's post #267 in this topic.  Un-stuff it with StuffIt Expander - this will extract a file called "Mac OS ROM".  Copy this to the System folder and let it replace the existing one.  (If you want to keep this installation usable outside of the Mini, keep a backup copy of the original file somewhere outside of the System folder.)

4. Delete or remove all ATI extensions from the "Extensions" folder in the System folder.  Download the hacked ATI extensions from darthnVader's post #1 in the topic "Modified RockHopper2 ATI drivers for Mac Mini( OS 9 )" here:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4277.msg29392.html#msg29392 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4277.msg29392.html#msg29392)

  The extracted files are as follows:

ATI 3D Accelerator              7.0.4
ATI 8500 3D Accelerator         7.1
ATI Extension                   2.9
ATI Graphics Accelerator        5.7
ATI Monitor                     3.2.1
ATI Radeon 3D Accelerator       6.4.7
ATI Rage 128 3D Accelerator     6.4.7
ATI Resource Manager            3.2.1
ATI Via Driver                  1.0
ATI Video Digitizer             4.3.7
OpenGLRendererATI               1.3.5


  I also left in these other files that were not duplicates of the above hacked ones:

ATI Driver Update               2.4.4
ATI MPP Manager                 1.2
ATI ROM Xtender                 1.2
ATI Video Accelerator           4.9.1


  I've had no problems with the additional files present, but it may depend on exactly what application types you're running.  I also have the "ATI Displays" 3.2.1 control panel installed so I can have a clear indication in the ATI menu that acceleration is in fact enabled.  This file was retrieved from one of the ATI retail installers.  I believe it was from "ATI OS 9 Mac Software Update January 2005", available for download here:

http://www.macintoshrepository.org/1357-ati-os-9-drivers-january-2005- (http://www.macintoshrepository.org/1357-ati-os-9-drivers-january-2005-)

5. Boot up your Mini!  If you are testing with an external firewire drive you will need to hold the Option key at power up to access the graphical boot selector menu where you can pick the 9.2.2 system drive.  If you don't want to have to do that every time, bite the bullet and either install permanently to the internal HDD, or pry open your Mini (not so easy a task - it took nine guitar picks at once on mine!) and swap your 9.2.2 drive in.

  Keep in mind that 3D software works but may be crash-prone, according to darthnVader.  Also note that I've had issues with proper monitor detection and/or sync timing at 1920x1080 on DVI and VGA.  Lower resolutions seem to be fine but may depend on your particular monitor.  If you run into problems with black screen during boot, be sure to try each port type and other monitors with lower native resolution if necessary.  I'm currently running rock-stable with an Acer AL1716 on DVI at native 1280x1024 @60Hz resolution.  Avoid the nearly-always-troublesome 1366x768 native res LCDs.

  Everything else critical should work except sound and any form of sleep mode.  I shouldn't have to say it because it should be well understood by now, but if your Mini has AirPort Extreme and/or bluetooth, neither is supported in OS 9.  I also presume no one has any interest in the modem - it doesn't work either.

  Enjoy!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 06, 2018, 12:23:24 PM
Can I just say that sound is coming out of speakers connected to my Mac mini using headphone jack, perfectly, but not through the internal speaker. Don't really use the internal one anyway. Like everything seems to be working now, just not internal speaker and the sleep.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 06, 2018, 12:39:24 PM
accidentally quoted my post.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 06, 2018, 04:49:55 PM
I have managed to get the CPU plugin limping along with a dirty hack to the NanoKernel. Calls to routine selector 12 are disabled. This stops the machine from crashing with the Multiprocessing folder present, and enables enough CPU power management that the fans run at a reasonable speed.

More to come on the CPU plugin, though. I don't want to get too carried away with this, but if someone could send me an archive of every known CPU plugin, that'd be great. I've already looked at the one-byte Sonnet patch without gaining much insight.

RossDarker, thanks for the promising news about the sound!

Has anyone gotten the Ethernet to work on the mini? I think mine came to me with a bad port, so testing will be a chore.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 06, 2018, 07:21:53 PM
Quote
and enables enough CPU power management that the fans run at a reasonable speed.

So, without the new CPU plugin the Post #277 Instructions produce a working, but overheating Mac Mini ?

I am assuming, if that is the case, that the modified CPU plugin is Critical !

As a side note, I will be buying a Mini just to see this all pan out first hand, I already have 3 power supplies, but no PPC Mini for at least 6 years, this is gonna be epic :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 06, 2018, 09:18:42 PM
  Ethernet has worked perfectly for me.  I've also had no issues with the fan speed at all, and it's not pouring a ton of heat out the back so it must be cooling sufficiently.  I know it's not running at full speed because the fan briefly comes on at full speed when the Mini first powers up but then quickly settles down to a much calmer pace.

  BTW, the weird issue I was having with the sub-menu not showing on the Control Panels folder in the Apple menu has been resolved.  It was nothing to do with the machine, it was just something glitched in the folder alias.  I made a new alias and copied it into the Apple menu folder, and low and behold, the original folder suddenly showed the sub-menu as well as did the new one.  So weird.  I deleted the old one anyway and kept the new one after this bizarre occurance.

@RossDarker - Which versions of the Apple Audio Extension extension and Sound control panel are you running with?  (Mine are versions 2.4 and 8.5.8 respectively.)  On my Mini the volume slider is set to zero and springs back if you try to drag it.  It makes no diffence on mine if I plug in something else to the output jack.  The only thing I ever get to hear is the startup sound.

@DieHard - If I get another Mini without a power supply, I know who to ask! ;)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 06, 2018, 09:36:30 PM
  Did all of the G4 Minis have the same motherboard firmware version?  Mine has version 4.89f1 reported in System Profiler.  On a related note, it appears there may have been a firmware update for some variant of the optical drive.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 06, 2018, 11:20:41 PM
I have sound over the headphone/lineout port too, I tested the other day, and it didn't work.

I don't have volume control, but sound does work with Sound Control Panel 8.5.8 and Apple Audio Extension 2.4.

I just noticed I don't have a modem, so that resolves why I don't see any serial connection.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 06, 2018, 11:57:33 PM
My external speakers have a volume control on them, because it is really an iPhone 4 dock. I just connected to it using an aux cable. That is the only way I can control the volume because like you said about the Control Strip Module slider springing back. I am using 2.4 & 8.5.8.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 07, 2018, 05:46:30 AM
The 7447a seems not to support the THRM registers that earlier G4s did. This is why the mini crashes. Here is a plugin patched to spoof a 30C CPU temperature. Working on a more elegant solution. Let me know about fan behaviour, and beware overheating!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 07, 2018, 08:03:54 AM
My external speakers have a volume control on them, because it is really an iPhone 4 dock. I just connected to it using an aux cable. That is the only way I can control the volume because like you said about the Control Strip Module slider springing back. I am using 2.4 & 8.5.8.

  Alright, so it must be outputting a line-level signal, which would explain why I couldn't hear anything on headphones.  I will try again with an amplifier.

  This is very promising because it means we're only dealing with fixing extremely basic device control parameters in the sound driver or with missing properties on the device in OF.

The 7447a seems not to support the THRM registers that earlier G4s did. This is why the mini crashes. Here is a plugin patched to spoof a 30C CPU temperature. Working on a more elegant solution. Let me know about fan behaviour, and beware overheating!

  Is there any way to access the data from the hardware thermal sensors?  I never understood why no one ever wrote something functionally similar to "MenuMeters" that would work on OS 9.  I remember I used to have a CPU monitor utility running during summer months on my Nubus 9150 machine with a Sonnet G4/360MHz.  The edit room in that studio facility didn't get enough AC, and I'd have to keep an eye on the CPU temp because the machine would consistently lock up if it reached a certain temperature.  In the case of the Mini there's supposed to be at least a couple thermal sensors present, if I'm interpreting the OF device tree correctly.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 07, 2018, 08:23:02 AM
  So you guys were right - sound does work as line-level output with no slider function in the control panel.  I'm playing from Winamp for the test.  Winamp has its own functional volume control, which is a good thing since I get nasty clipping without their volume reduced to about half.  Great start anyway - we're so close to having this all working fully!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on March 07, 2018, 08:28:32 AM
The 7447a seems not to support the THRM registers that earlier G4s did. This is why the mini crashes. Here is a plugin patched to spoof a 30C CPU temperature. Working on a more elegant solution. Let me know about fan behaviour, and beware overheating!
What happens if you tell PowerMacInfo to report the processor temp on the mini?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 07, 2018, 06:07:28 PM
Freezes up! The register accesses don’t seem to crash the machine (although this could be the NK installing a dummy illegal instruction handler). But the reading code waits for a flag to be raised in one of the registers, which never happens.

Docs for the 7447a say that the thermal diode is only exposed to the motherboard through two socket pins.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 07, 2018, 07:53:00 PM
  I've poked around in the Apple Audio Extension file and noted that there are specific entries for I2S audio support.  This will be why the Mini's output works at all on OS 9.  I presume the interpretation of the device, and therefore the necessary controls and jack insertion detection, is lacking due to the file not containing a specific driver section for the "Toonie" sound device implementation in the Mini.  I'm wondering if it's possible to borrow what we need from OS X 10.3.7 (perhaps up to 10.3.9), as was done with the RockHopper NDRV for the Radeon 9200.  I'm not expert enough to tackle this, but perhaps one of you guys can take a stab at it?

  BTW, I'm already having a blast just playing MP3s in the background on the Mini while browsing the forum with Classilla!  I've got it patched through the mixer in my control room so I can crank the tunes.  I can't wait to start pushing its limits with software synths to see what it can really do.  It's got me thinking about using a number of them together over MIDI, since they'll take up such a tiny amount of space vs the tower machines.  Now if we could just figure out how to hack in the serial port, I'd have enough MIDI interfaces available to do three or four co-opertive Minis with one on USB!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 08, 2018, 05:39:53 AM
  I've poked around in the Apple Audio Extension file and noted that there are specific entries for I2S audio support.  This will be why the Mini's output works at all on OS 9.  I presume the interpretation of the device, and therefore the necessary controls and jack insertion detection, is lacking due to the file not containing a specific driver section for the "Toonie" sound device implementation in the Mini.  I'm wondering if it's possible to borrow what we need from OS X 10.3.7 (perhaps up to 10.3.9), as was done with the RockHopper NDRV for the Radeon 9200.  I'm not expert enough to tackle this, but perhaps one of you guys can take a stab at it?

  BTW, I'm already having a blast just playing MP3s in the background on the Mini while browsing the forum with Classilla!  I've got it patched through the mixer in my control room so I can crank the tunes.  I can't wait to start pushing its limits with software synths to see what it can really do.  It's got me thinking about using a number of them together over MIDI, since they'll take up such a tiny amount of space vs the tower machines.  Now if we could just figure out how to hack in the serial port, I'd have enough MIDI interfaces available to do three or four co-opertive Minis with one on USB!

Just doesn't work that way, Audio devices really don't take part in the boot process, other than the startup sound. They don't need Native Device Drivers ('NDRV').

While we maybe able to learn something from the startup sound code in the boot rom, we likely can't learn much from OS X drivers, unless they are open source. If linux has drivers that work for sound on the Mini we can likely learn what we need, but translating that to OS 9 is going to be tricky.

I'm not sure how feasible it would be to disassemble the Sound Manager, or even make binary hacks to it. Versions of Sound Manager 3.x+ should have some API's but I don't think Apple ever published any of them, or at least I don't see any Sound Manager DDK's.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on March 08, 2018, 02:16:59 PM
  I've poked around in the Apple Audio Extension file and noted that there are specific entries for I2S audio support.  This will be why the Mini's output works at all on OS 9.  I presume the interpretation of the device, and therefore the necessary controls and jack insertion detection, is lacking due to the file not containing a specific driver section for the "Toonie" sound device implementation in the Mini.  I'm wondering if it's possible to borrow what we need from OS X 10.3.7 (perhaps up to 10.3.9), as was done with the RockHopper NDRV for the Radeon 9200.  I'm not expert enough to tackle this, but perhaps one of you guys can take a stab at it?

  BTW, I'm already having a blast just playing MP3s in the background on the Mini while browsing the forum with Classilla!  I've got it patched through the mixer in my control room so I can crank the tunes.  I can't wait to start pushing its limits with software synths to see what it can really do.  It's got me thinking about using a number of them together over MIDI, since they'll take up such a tiny amount of space vs the tower machines.  Now if we could just figure out how to hack in the serial port, I'd have enough MIDI interfaces available to do three or four co-opertive Minis with one on USB!

Just doesn't work that way, Audio devices really don't take part in the boot process, other than the startup sound. They don't need Native Device Drivers ('NDRV').

While we maybe able to learn something from the startup sound code in the boot rom, we likely can't learn much from OS X drivers, unless they are open source. If linux has drivers that work for sound on the Mini we can likely learn what we need, but translating that to OS 9 is going to be tricky.

I'm not sure how feasible it would be to disassemble the Sound Manager, or even make binary hacks to it. Versions of Sound Manager 3.x+ should have some API's but I don't think Apple ever published any of them, or at least I don't see any Sound Manager DDK's.
opensource.apple.com (http://opensource.apple.com) has a lot of useful stuff in it, including a lot of source code for early Mac OS X. There might be something related to sound in there.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 08, 2018, 09:21:35 PM
  A moment, please, while I vent my frustration with damned F*ING invisible characters!  (This lopped off most of my post and I had to build it again.  GRRRRRRRR...)

  I'm getting the impression, from the tidbits of plain english I can read in the code of the Apple Audio Extension extension, that the various devices are supported by a plug-in architecture.  This is what I'm basing my musings on as to whether or not we can transfer some later code back and patch it in.  The file also has a number of "Joy!peffpwpc" headers dividing up the code (as with most other extensions).  In case anyone was interested, here are a number of the device plug-in names I see in the file:

From a portion of the Data fork:
BurgundyPlugin
GCAwacsPlugin
DacaPlugin
USBAudioPlugin
VirtualHALPlugin
MLANAudioPlugin
DigitalSndPlugin
TumblerPlugin
SnapperPlugin

From a portion of the Resource fork:
DAVAudioPlugin
GCAwacsPlugin
I2SAudioPlugin
VirtualHALPlugin
SnapperPlugin
TumblerPlugin
ASPScalarPlugin
AltivecPlugin

Many of the above refer to specific motherboard integrated audio devices.

And here is a subsection of data from one of the plugins:
BurgundyPlugin
__SndHWSetPlaythrough
__SndHWSetSystemMute
__SndHWSetInputGain
__SndHWSetSystemVolume
__SndHWSetActiveOutput
__SndHWSetActiveInput

  Here it appears to be declaring basic operating parameters/variables to the Sound control panel for the given device name.  The extension mustn't be fully recognizing the Mini's sound device, "Toonie", and therefore never defining these parameters/variables.  Presumably we can either steal functional code from a later driver/plug-in, or perhaps even hack an existing plug-in to be recognized as belonging to the "Toonie" by OF name/address.

  This seems like a plausible explanation for the lack of controls or jack switch detection by the Sound control panel, given the evidence.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: neophytte on March 08, 2018, 09:53:23 PM
Now if we could just figure out how to hack in the serial port, I'd have enough MIDI interfaces available to do three or four co-opertive Minis with one on USB!

This is what I'm waiting for, with the addition of the new JamPort http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/index.html

Cheers
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 08, 2018, 10:27:12 PM
Now if we could just figure out how to hack in the serial port, I'd have enough MIDI interfaces available to do three or four co-opertive Minis with one on USB!

This is what I'm waiting for, with the addition of the new JamPort http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/index.html

Cheers

  I actually tried to email Alex with technical questions related to tracing the debug port on the Mini, but never got a response.  I'd love it if he were involved here.  I'd like a little educated direction before I get crazy and just start hack-patching wires and end up frying something.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 09, 2018, 06:20:36 AM
  A moment, please, while I vent my frustration with damned F*ING invisible characters!  (This lopped off most of my post and I had to build it again.  GRRRRRRRR...)

  I'm getting the impression, from the tidbits of plain english I can read in the code of the Apple Audio Extension extension, that the various devices are supported by a plug-in architecture.  This is what I'm basing my musings on as to whether or not we can transfer some later code back and patch it in.  The file also has a number of "Joy!peffpwpc" headers dividing up the code (as with most other extensions).  In case anyone was interested, here are a number of the device plug-in names I see in the file:

From a portion of the Data fork:
BurgundyPlugin
GCAwacsPlugin
DacaPlugin
USBAudioPlugin
VirtualHALPlugin
MLANAudioPlugin
DigitalSndPlugin
TumblerPlugin
SnapperPlugin

From a portion of the Resource fork:
DAVAudioPlugin
GCAwacsPlugin
I2SAudioPlugin
VirtualHALPlugin
SnapperPlugin
TumblerPlugin
ASPScalarPlugin
AltivecPlugin

Many of the above refer to specific motherboard integrated audio devices.

And here is a subsection of data from one of the plugins:
BurgundyPlugin
__SndHWSetPlaythrough
__SndHWSetSystemMute
__SndHWSetInputGain
__SndHWSetSystemVolume
__SndHWSetActiveOutput
__SndHWSetActiveInput

  Here it appears to be declaring basic operating parameters/variables to the Sound control panel for the given device name.  The extension mustn't be fully recognizing the Mini's sound device, "Toonie", and therefore never defining these parameters/variables.  Presumably we can either steal functional code from a later driver/plug-in, or perhaps even hack an existing plug-in to be recognized as belonging to the "Toonie" by OF name/address.

  This seems like a plausible explanation for the lack of controls or jack switch detection by the Sound control panel, given the evidence.

Is "Toonie" an enumerated property on the device tree, or is it just a nickname of the device that you're using?

I have an iBook G3 with the i2s audio device, fully supported by OS 9, and the properties for the device look about the same as my Mini/iBook G4/Powerbook G4. However only the Mini and the iBook G3 have working sound.

Tho I may need to test whit ELN's latest ROM's, as I tested the line-out on the Mini a few days ago, and it wasn't working.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 09, 2018, 06:56:52 AM
Apple's I2s driver is open source, but the K2 driver that seems to run the audio device is not.

https://opensource.apple.com/source/AppleI2S/AppleI2S-101.3.1/AppleI2S.cpp.auto.html
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 09, 2018, 07:38:47 AM
I believe it is supposed to be an enumerated property, akin to "screamer" that has been added to the compatible property on other machines to gain basic function.  There is a named driver in OS X specifically for the Toonie.  I thought I saw it in the detailed branch of the tree for the i2s device, but I'll have to go take another look at it again.

Update - So I got it confused with some monster listing I saw online somewhere.  Here's the device and its properties from OF on my machine:

dev /pci@F2000000/mac-io/i2s/i2s-a/sound .properties
name: Sound
device-type: Soundchip
compatible: AOAKeylargo
vendor-id: 0000106b
layout-id: 0000003a
object-model-version: 00000002

  As "AOAKeylargo" compatible (Apple Onboard Audio - Keylargo), this would imply Apple didn't re-invent the wheel with this device variant.  The bridge to it is I2S format but the function should be handled the same way as Keylargo.  Why it then isn't fully working using the existing Keylargo code, I don't know.  Can someone with more knowledge of past Keylargo device handling please comment?  The missing link here could be something incredibly simple.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 09, 2018, 08:13:35 AM
  Further to this, when I look at the same device section on the MDD FW400 (which happens to be "snapper" by name and is also on I2S at exact same location), there are a hell of a lot more property entries which define its capabilities and operating parameters (there's even mention of a USB subwoofer).  Presumably all this is necessary information for the device in the Mini too but is all missing from OF.  If we can determine which missing properties are needed on the Mini and what values they should hold, we may be able to write these into the ROM code so that it performs the necessary additions at startup.

 Just as an example to give you a sense of what I'm talking about, here are all the additional property lines from the MDD FW400:

#-detects 00000003
#-inputs 00000002
#-features 00000003
#-outputs 00000004
default-monitor 6e6f6e65 00
equalizer-id 33353353 30333033
harware-types 00000003
icon-id ffffbf4d
info-id ffffbf44
model 35350303
name-id ffffbf4d
object-model-version 00000001
sample-rates 00000002 ac440000 bb800000
i2s-serial-format 00000002
mclk-sample-rate-ratio 00000100
sub-frame 00000000
sound-objects (One line for each instance of the number of detects/inputs/features/outputs defined in the above parameters, detailing all the necessary parameters/addresses for each entry.  Very long strings.)

  I imagine we would need similar entries in the Mini for most if not all of these property lines.  Even "inputs" includes a definition for a "no input" type.  We would need to change the counts in the first four properties to align with the number of these subcomponents present, which are then detailed in the multiple lines of the "sound-objects" property.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 09, 2018, 11:04:10 AM
I believe it is supposed to be an enumerated property, akin to "screamer" that has been added to the compatible property on other machines to gain basic function.  There is a named driver in OS X specifically for the Toonie.  I thought I saw it in the detailed branch of the tree for the i2s device, but I'll have to go take another look at it again.

Update - So I got it confused with some monster listing I saw online somewhere.  Here's the device and its properties from OF on my machine:

dev /pci@F2000000/mac-io/i2s/i2s-a/sound .properties
name: Sound
device-type: Soundchip
compatible: AOAKeylargo
vendor-id: 0000106b
layout-id: 0000003a
object-model-version: 00000002

  As "AOAKeylargo" compatible (Apple Onboard Audio - Keylargo), this would imply Apple didn't re-invent the wheel with this device variant.  The bridge to it is I2S format but the function should be handled the same way as Keylargo.  Why it then isn't fully working using the existing Keylargo code, I don't know.  Can someone with more knowledge of past Keylargo device handling please comment?  The missing link here could be something incredibly simple.

Here are the .properties from the "snapper" sound device in the iBook G3:

Code: [Select]
0 > dev pci1/mac-io/i2s/i2s-a/sound  ok
0 > .properties
name                    sound
device_type             soundchip
compatible              snapper
vendor-id               0000106b
#-detects               00000001
#-inputs                00000002
#-features              00000002
#-outputs               00000002
default-monitor         6e6f6e65 00
device-id               00000018
equalizer-id            33353353 30333033
hardware-types          00000003
has-anded-reset         00000001
icon-id                 ffffbf4d
info-id                 ffffbf44
model                   353S0303
name-id                 ffffbf4d
object-model-version    00000001
sample-rates            00000002 ac440000 bb800000
i2s-serial-format       00000002
mclk-sample-rate-ratio  00000100
sub-frame               00000000
sound-objects           feature index 0 model Proj16PowerControl
                        feature index 1 model Equalizer
                        detect index 0 bit-mask 2 bit-match 0 device 2 registry-name extint-gpio12 model GPIOGenericDetect
                        input index 0 icon-id -16521 name-id -20532 port-connection 4 port-type 0x696D6963 zero-gain 0x00000000 model InternalMic
                        input index 1 model NoInput
                        output index 0 device-mask 2 device-match 2 icon-id -16563 name-id -20524 port-connection 1 port-type 0x6864706E model OutputEQPort
                        output index 1 device-mask 2 device-match 0 icon-id -16563 name-id -20525 port-connection 2 port-type 0x6973706B model OutputEQPort
                       

 ok
0 >

Here is the PowerBook 12' G4:

Code: [Select]
0 > dev pci1/mac-io/i2s/i2s-a/sound .properties
name                    sound
device_type             soundchip
compatible              AOAbase
built-in               
layout-id               00000048
object-model-version    00000002
vendor-id               0000106b
platform-tas-codec-ref  /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/i2c@18000/i2c-bus@0/codec@6a
 ok
0 >
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 09, 2018, 11:37:38 AM
Here is the source for Apple Onboard Audio, tho I'm not sure any of it will do us any good. We don't have the source for the AppleK2Driver, and as far as I can find Apple never released a sound/audio DDK that I can find.

https://opensource.apple.com/source/AppleOnboardAudio/AppleOnboardAudio-258.3.1/

So we would pretty much have to disassemble the Apple Audio extension, or one of the 3rd party sound drivers.

It's perplexing that we don't have a DDK for audio devices, I'm sure it exists, as 3rd parties made sound manager compatible audio drivers, but they must have had to NDA.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 09, 2018, 02:10:45 PM
It is an interesting coincidence that the Apple PowerBook G4 1.0 Ghz (17" Aluminum Model M8793LL/A - PowerBook5,1 - A1013) has a similar sound issue where external speakers work, but no "Internal" sound, also that unit as I have documented:
Quote
2) Internal Speakers will only work if 1/8" adapter or external speaker jack is plugged into headphone jack and then BOTH speakers and Line out work simultaneously

so try this with the Mini, insert a 1/8" only half way and see what happens
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on March 09, 2018, 02:55:50 PM
Here is the source for Apple Onboard Audio, tho I'm not sure any of it will do us any good. We don't have the source for the AppleK2Driver, and as far as I can find Apple never released a sound/audio DDK that I can find.

https://opensource.apple.com/source/AppleOnboardAudio/AppleOnboardAudio-258.3.1/

So we would pretty much have to disassemble the Apple Audio extension, or one of the 3rd party sound drivers.

It's perplexing that we don't have a DDK for audio devices, I'm sure it exists, as 3rd parties made sound manager compatible audio drivers, but they must have had to NDA.

There is (and I don't recall where) documentation on creating audio devices (sound manager) for OS 9.  So that with the PCI DDK and or USB driver stuff one could write a driver given the right information.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 09, 2018, 03:30:54 PM
It is an interesting coincidence that the Apple PowerBook G4 1.0 Ghz (17" Aluminum Model M8793LL/A - PowerBook5,1 - A1013) has a similar sound issue where external speakers work, but no "Internal" sound, also that unit as I have documented:
Quote
2) Internal Speakers will only work if 1/8" adapter or external speaker jack is plugged into headphone jack and then BOTH speakers and Line out work simultaneously

so try this with the Mini, insert a 1/8" only half way and see what happens
  My guess with the Powerbook is that the reading of the jack insertion detection switch is inverted from what it should be, much like with the inverted behavior of the backlight control slider.  It could be as simple a matter as the logic handling of a single data bit.  I've seen evidence in the device properties that this state may be detected using a GPIO line.  Getting small details like logic high vs logic low = data 1 is often a function of a specific device's driver (or plug-in) such that the common code doesn't have to handle these variances directly.  The property "has-anded-reset" in the example given by darthnVader for an iBook G3 sounds a lot like a logic compensation flag to me.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 10, 2018, 05:26:41 AM
I was going to post the output of my QuickSilver's sound device, but for some reason I have no input in a telnet session.

@MacOS Plus, I'd really like to see the full output of the MDD FW400.

You may already know how to telnet in, but I'll post the answer anyway for everyone:

https://www.fenestrated.net/mirrors/Apple%20Technotes%20(As%20of%202002)/tn/tn2004.html

Basically, you just need two computers connected directly with an ethernet cable, I don't think it needs to be a crossover cable, unless your using a really old computer, as most ethernet is auto sensing, and will switch on it's own.

I'm not sure if both computers need to be auto sensing, or just one, maybe someone can answer that?

Anyway, on the Mac you want to control over telnet, boot into Open Firmware( Command+Opt+O+F ) at boot, and type:

Code: [Select]
" enet:telnet,10.1.2.3" io
Then on the computer you want to control from, set your ethernet address to something like 10.1.2.4, and telnet in:

Code: [Select]
telnet 10.1.2.3
Then you should see the screen go black on the target Mac, and have control of Open Firmware from telnet. Allowing copy and paste.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 10, 2018, 06:00:10 PM
  I was doing telnet logging in the past for nanopico when we were working on getting the Xserve to boot OS 9.  I can do it through my network from any machine to any other machine if I select an unused 192.168.0.xxx IP.  Here is the complete OF device tree from the MDD FW400:

Code: [Select]
ff87f638: /cpus
ff87f8e8:   /PowerPC,G4@0
ff87fd10:     /l2-cache
ff87ff48:       /l2-cache
ff880ba8:   /PowerPC,G4@1
ff880fd0:     /l2-cache
ff881208:       /l2-cache
ff881518: /chosen
ff881730: /memory@0
ff8819d0: /openprom
ff881b78:   /client-services
ff882e60: /rom@ff800000
ff883060:   /boot-rom@fff00000
ff883290:   /macos
ff883398: /options
ff8834a0: /aliases
ff8854a8: /packages
ff885588:   /deblocker
ff885f20:   /disk-label
ff8869e8:   /obp-tftp
ff8902c8:   /telnet
ff890bc8:   /mac-parts
ff892478:   /mac-files
ff895430:   /hfs-plus-files
ff89a4b0:   /fat-files
ff89c2a8:   /iso-9660-files
ff89d108:   /bootinfo-loader
ff89ed78:   /xcoff-loader
ff89f810:   /pe-loader
ff8a0260:   /elf-loader
ff8a1908:   /usb-hid-class
ff8a4498:   /usb-ms-class
ff8a70e8:   /usb-audio-class
ff914c60:   /sbp2-disk
ff917820:   /ata-disk
ff919d60:   /atapi-disk
ff91bef0:   /bootpath-search
ff922870:   /terminal-emulator
ff922980: /firewire-disk-mode
ff9383b0: /pseudo-hid
ff9384b0:   /keyboard
ff938ba8:   /mouse
ff939140:   /eject-key
ff939610: /pseudo-sound
ff939940: /multiboot
ff94d758: /diagnostics
ff94d838: /nvram@fff04000
ff94e488: /uni-n@f8000000
ff94e960:   /i2c@f8001000
ff94f478:     /fan@58
ff9502f8:     /i2c-hwclock@ca
ff950ae0:     /temp-monitor@92
ff9511c8:     /cereal
ff9518f8: /pci@f0000000
ff99ce10:   /uni-north-agp@b
ff99d120:   /ATY,ApacheParent@10
ff9c36c8:     /ATY,Apache_A@0
ff9c4570:     /ATY,Apache_B@1
ff952b58: /pci@f2000000
ff9555e8:   /mac-io@17
ff95c0c8:     /interrupt-controller@40000
ff95c318:     /gpio@50
ff95c548:       /extint-gpio1@9
ff95c838:       /programmer-switch@11
ff95cae0:       /gpio5@6f
ff95cd00:       /extint-gpio15@67
ff95cf88:       /gpio6@70
ff95d1a8:       /extint-gpio16@68
ff95d498:       /extint-gpio14@66
ff95d720:       /gpio12@76
ff95d938:       /gpio11@75
ff95db50:     /escc-legacy@12000
ff95ddc0:       /ch-a@12004
ff95dfc0:       /ch-b@12000
ff95e1c0:     /escc@13000
ff95e448:       /ch-a@13020
ff95ee70:       /ch-b@13000
ff95f808:     /i2s@10000
ff95fa38:       /i2s-a@10000
ff95fd68:         /sound
ff960600:     /timer@15000
ff9607f8:     /via-pmu@16000
ff963ec0:       /pmu-i2c
ff964ce0:         /i2c-hwclock@1d4
ff965590:         /i2c-hwclock@1c8
ff965e10:       /rtc
ff966508:       /power-mgt
ff9c76f0:         /usb-power-mgt
ff966818:     /i2c@18000
ff9672d0:       /cereal
ff967a00:       /deq
ff967b40:     /ata-4@1f000
ff96a880:       /disk
ff96b0c0:     /ata-3@20000
ff96de00:       /disk
ff97a5b0:   /usb@18
ff982238:   /usb@19
ff9c5610:     /hub@1
ff9c5818:       /mouse@2
ff9c5b38:       /device@3
ff9c5cb0:         /keyboard@0
ff9c6040:         /interface@1
ff953dd8: /pci@f4000000
ff98a000:   /ata-6@d
ff98d1e8:     /disk
ff98d820:   /firewire@e
ff997a28:   /ethernet@f
ff9c7bb8:     /ethernet-phy
ff955038: /vsp@f9000000
ff955328:   /veo@f9080000
ff955488:   /veo@f9180000

The complete properties listing for the sound device in that machine is as follows:

Code: [Select]
name                    sound
device_type             soundchip
compatible              snapper
vendor-id               0000106b
#-detects               00000003
#-inputs                00000002
#-features              00000003
#-outputs               00000004
default-monitor         6e6f6e65 00
device-id               00000016
equalizer-id            33353353 30333033
hardware-types          00000003
icon-id                 ffffbf4d
info-id                 ffffbf44
model                   353S0303
name-id                 ffffbf4d
object-model-version    00000001
sample-rates            00000002 ac440000 bb800000
i2s-serial-format       00000002
mclk-sample-rate-ratio  00000100
sub-frame               00000000
sound-objects           feature index 0 model Proj14PowerControl
                        feature index 1 model Equalizer
                        feature index 2 model USBSubwoofer
                        detect index 0 bit-mask 4096 bit-match 4096 device 4096 registry-name extint-gpio14 model GPIOPrioritizedDetect
                        detect index 1 bit-mask 2 bit-match 2 device 2 registry-name extint-gpio15 model GPIOPrioritizedDetect
                        detect index 2 bit-mask 4102 bit-match 4 device 4 registry-name extint-gpio16 model GPIOPrioritizedDetect
                        input index 0 icon-id -16521 name-id -20630 port-connection 1 port-type 0x6C696E65 zero-gain 0x00000000 model LineInput
                        input index 1 model NoInput
                        output index 0 device-mask 2 device-match 2 icon-id -16563 name-id -20524 port-connection 1 port-type 0x6864706E model OutputEQPort
                        output index 1 device-mask 4102 device-match 0 icon-id -16563 name-id -20525 port-connection 2 port-type 0x6973706B model OutputMonoEQPort
                        output index 2 device-mask 4102 device-match 4 icon-id -16563 name-id -20523 port-connection 3 port-type 0x6573706B model OutputDallasEQPort
                        output index 3 device-mask 4096 device-match 4096 icon-id -16563 name-id -20524 port-connection 4 port-type 0x6C696E65 model OutputEQPort

  BTW, on the topic of temperature monitoring on the Mini, look at the last section of the OF device tree on the Mini and you'll see there are two clearly defined sensors, one being the CPU on-die.  It appears the necessary device declarations and connections are present to allow reading the sensors, but for some reason this wasn't ever made accessible at the software level.  Some of the other neighboring entries are similarly intriguing.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 15, 2018, 05:01:47 AM
The 7447a seems not to support the THRM registers that earlier G4s did. This is why the mini crashes. Here is a plugin patched to spoof a 30C CPU temperature. Working on a more elegant solution. Let me know about fan behaviour, and beware overheating!

It seems the temp on the Mini is exposed via the via-pmu on the i2c bus.

Not sure how the Apple CPU plugin handles i2c, or the via-pmu, but maybe we can get it to look for the THRM value here?

Also, the AppleKeyLagro , AppleVia, and Applei2c are open source, so if we need any info we should be able to glean it from there.

https://opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1058.html


Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on March 15, 2018, 12:10:52 PM
The 7447a seems not to support the THRM registers that earlier G4s did. This is why the mini crashes. Here is a plugin patched to spoof a 30C CPU temperature. Working on a more elegant solution. Let me know about fan behaviour, and beware overheating!

It seems the temp on the Mini is exposed via the via-pmu on the i2c bus.

Not sure how the Apple CPU plugin handles i2c, or the via-pmu, but maybe we can get it to look for the THRM value here?

Also, the AppleKeyLagro , AppleVia, and Applei2c are open source, so if we need any info we should be able to glean it from there.

https://opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1058.html
Is the exposed temperature the CPU temp or the air temp?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 15, 2018, 05:59:53 PM
The THRM registers are PowerPC “special purpose registers” that you can access directly from supervisor mode code on the CPU. If the mini CPU temperature probe is on a different bus, then some hacking is called for. :D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 15, 2018, 06:47:40 PM
The THRM registers are PowerPC “special purpose registers” that you can access directly from supervisor mode code on the CPU. If the mini CPU temperature probe is on a different bus, then some hacking is called for. :D

Here's some OF device lines in regards to temperature and fan in the Mini:

dev /sep/fans/main-enclosure@0
.properties lists device as /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu@16000/pmu-pwm-fans/fan

dev /sep/temperatures/cpu-bottomside@0
.properties lists device as /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu@16000/pmu-i2c/temp-monitor@190/local@0

dev /sep/temperatures/cpu-on-die@1
.properties lists device as /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/via-pmu@16000/pmu-i2c/temp-monitor@190/remote@1

  Interesting to note that they define the external temp sensor as "local" while the cpu on-die sensor is "remote".  Does the above imply that sensor data would be accessed centrally through the PMU itself?  That would make sense.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 17, 2018, 07:18:30 AM
Hi guys,

I've been looking into the Power Manager. I want to get this sorted out before I move on to audio.

Mac OS 9 on a G4 does not directly control fans, or routinely monitor the CPU temperature. Fan control is delegated to a chip on the motherboard. The OS is only interested in the CPU temperature when the NanoKernel takes a "thermal event" interrupt on G4s that support this (later ones don't). The few calls to the GetCoreProcessorTemperature function are largely superfluous. In fact, the THRM registers that they depend on are absent on later G4s, causing the mini to crash when a CPU plugin is present.

The attached ROM contains the following NanoKernel hacks, specific to the 7447a:

Everyone should use this ROM. Now you can get rid of that hacked-up Apple CPU Plugins file that I posted earlier.

Also, there seems to be interested in easy customisation of the boot script. Get the command line dev tools and Python 3, and you're good to go:

https://github.com/elliotnunn/newworld-rom (https://github.com/elliotnunn/newworld-rom)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 17, 2018, 08:19:09 AM
  This ROM did allow the video to sleep but that's as far as it got.  The computer itself and the USB wouldn't sleep, nor could it then recover from this state.  This condition is often what happens on other machines when one PCI/AGP card can't sleep.  I'd be willing to place a small bet on the 9200 being mis-handled, but more inclined to believe the PMU control is still not quite right.  I was actually running with no CPU Plug-ins file at all in the System folder before trying this ROM, and only put the original back now for the test.

  One other observation not related to this ROM - I've been having occasional problems with no mouse pointer movement when the Finder loads.  Everything had been fine from the beginning and then suddenly it started happening recently.  Disabling the ATI Monitor extension fixed this initially, and often is a re-produceable fix, but a couple times it happened even without that.  I'm not sure what the nature of the issue is.  The mouse itself works because the button clicks the Apple menu where the pointer defaults to at startup.  For now it is almost always working with the extension disabled.  I have a QuickKeys sequence programmed to allow me to shut down the system from the keyboard so that at least I can gracefully turn it off whenever there is a mouse issue.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 17, 2018, 12:03:33 PM
It's like we're racing to the finish line... there is a possibility that the "PPC Mac Mini Universal Install Image" is coming soon to a theater near you :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 17, 2018, 06:04:19 PM
Sorry MacOS Plus, I think I over-promised. This ROM does not help with system sleep. It only enables the CPU's internal "NAP" mode.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 17, 2018, 07:23:54 PM
Sorry MacOS Plus, I think I over-promised. This ROM does not help with system sleep. It only enables the CPU's internal "NAP" mode.

  Maybe I just got a little over-excited. ;)  How would I be able to tell if it was actually 'NAPping'?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 17, 2018, 07:40:39 PM
Good work ELN, the Mini is a nice little OS 9 machine with the way you've been able to code it.

MacOS Plus, I have the same issue with the mouse working for clicks but not moving, sometimes, tho a reboot fixes it.

I've done a little debugging of sleep issues under OS X, I think the app is called SleepyX, tho it's been a number of years and I'm not sure it can help us with enabling sleep in the Mini.

I'll look into it when I have time and see if I can find anything that maybe useful.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 17, 2018, 10:13:10 PM
I'm thinking mouse pointer trouble is likely related to video driver interaction, since I've seen this sort of thing occur for similar reasons on very rare occasions even on non-Mac OS systems.  The GPU is supposed to handle the mouse pointer redraws function as a separate dedicated process and is actually partly responsible for allowing the pointer to move in response to user input, if I remember correctly.

  I really don't get why it's a random glitch, nor why it works properly during boot right up to the point where the Finder takes over and then the redraw stops.

  Also, I don't recall if this is normal, but if I boot to OS X and then back to OS 9, the system clock is wrong every time.  PRAM battery is good.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: FdB on March 17, 2018, 11:27:28 PM
MOS+

Perhaps completely unrelated and possibly too simplistic, yet…
installed new drive and OS 9.2.2 on a Rev.A B&W G3 last night.
Mouse froze just after finder load. Extensions off = okay boot.
After a few attempts and finally a “command-option-esc” upon
freeze, there was some ATI extension that force quit and then
it went on to full boot. Don’t remember exact extension title,
but I did switch it off. (Too lazy to go downstairs right now.)

Also, after OS X install and shuffling back between the two, I’m
also having the old faulty time ritual… that years ago I remember
somehow solving. Alas, that complete memory also fails me now.

And, just keep it up you all. When time actually begins folding into
and on top of itself and that gaping rift opens up into the space-time
continuum void… the last thing you’ll hear is the Ghost of Jobs
chanting “Redrum, redrum, REDRUM!…”

Absolute heresy! Get thee behind me Satan!

Alright, I may soon begin the Mini Quest as well. ;)   
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on March 18, 2018, 11:05:02 AM

The attached ROM contains the following NanoKernel hacks, specific to the 7447a:
  • Return an error for all calls to the CPU plugin's buggy core temperature getter
  • Enable CPU idling (previously the only G4s that could do this were the 7400/7410) -- this might be buggy?


I've tested this ROM it on the eMac (7447A@1.250) with the CPU plugins installed, and the system don't hung at startup as usually but the the system don't go to sleep and a dialog box appears saying that part of the system software is missing... so it seems that this ROM prevent the CPU plugins to load ... (at least on the eMac)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 19, 2018, 12:29:31 PM
The ROMs that I’ve been posting here are only for the Mac mini. Many of the hacks will cause problems on other machines. I’d be very happy to help you build your own NewWorld ROMs. Unless you want to play with the 3 and 4 MB layers, all the binaries in the repo are pre-built. You only need to edit one text file to enable some boot-script-based hacks, and I’ve commented that file pretty thoroughly.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on March 20, 2018, 02:26:36 PM
The ROMs that I’ve been posting here are only for the Mac mini. Many of the hacks will cause problems on other machines.
OK I understand :)

but now the eMac goes to sleep well with your ROM for the Mac mini :)
but it doesn't wake up  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on March 20, 2018, 05:05:42 PM
The ROMs that I’ve been posting here are only for the Mac mini. Many of the hacks will cause problems on other machines.
OK I understand :)

but now the eMac goes to sleep well with your ROM for the Mac mini :)
but it doesn't wake up  ;D ;D ;D

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on March 21, 2018, 02:21:20 PM

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.

I put it in to sleep using the sleep menu in the main menu bar. In further testings seems that the only thing that goes to sleep is the eMac screen. But sorry for the OffTopic this is not place to discuss eMac isues ...
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 21, 2018, 07:47:13 PM

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.

I put it in to sleep using the sleep menu in the main menu bar. In further testings seems that the only thing that goes to sleep is the eMac screen. But sorry for the OffTopic this is not place to discuss eMac isues ...

  It was worth hearing that, because the behavior with that ROM is the same on the Mini.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 22, 2018, 08:52:52 AM
(2) Mac Minis on the way,

(1) 1.25 & (1) 1.33 w/power supplies, combined price for both with shipping $76...lol

So... is the latest ROM attached the one to use ?

This is gonna be fun, I might transfer a bunch of stuff, so I have a "quieter" OS 9 unit
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on March 22, 2018, 11:54:06 AM

Do you have it set to sleep via the power button?

See if that will sleep/wake it, otherwise it's likely not really entering sleep, thus it can't wake.

Does the eMac have a power light, does it glow when you enter sleep?

The issue may have something to do with the USB2 pci device, or the 5v? trickle voltage to USB.

I put it in to sleep using the sleep menu in the main menu bar. In further testings seems that the only thing that goes to sleep is the eMac screen. But sorry for the OffTopic this is not place to discuss eMac isues ...

Not too far off topic though.
I thought I saw someone say something about the G4 Cube or something (or maybe a powerbook) being closest to the mini architecture wise.  If you dig through Apple documentation on the mini and other machines, the closest one too it is an eMac.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on March 22, 2018, 01:31:57 PM
... If you dig through Apple documentation on the mini and other machines, the closest one too it is an eMac.
You're right,
This is the block diagram of the Mac Mini:
(http://www.sowerbutts.com/linux-mac-mini/block_apple.gif)

Most of this unsupported G4s are based 7447A and Intrepid controller.

This is the block diagram of the eMac:
(http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/eMac/art/040168001721_01.gif)


This is the block diagram of the iBook:
(https://www.macrepaircentral.us/ibook-g4-14-inch-early-2004/images/697_206_272-usb-ethernet-block-diagram.jpg)

But in the other side the Cube is more similar to a G4 Sawtooth:
(http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/PowerMacG4Cube/images/TR_L_01.gif)

All this basic Apple Hardware info can be found here:

http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/hardware2.html
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 22, 2018, 07:35:22 PM
Very persuasive. Maybe I should broaden my efforts to understanding the Intrepid architecture better. Is any officially supported machine based on Intrepid?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on March 22, 2018, 08:22:32 PM
  That's really neat how the Mini and eMac are laid out almost exactly the same.  For some reason I never knew AirPort Extreme was a form of PCI device - perhaps I should try to graft a real PCI slot on to that?  Is there any pinout documented for that AirPort Extreme connector type?

  The Mini is only akin to the Cube in the sense of cosmetic form factor and the associated marketing take and target end user.  Some might consider it a 'romantic notion' perhaps, but overall the Mini is vitually identical in general features to the Cube, with the exception that the AGP video is integrated.  When it comes to the true internal architecture though, you're right, it's most like an eMac from a logic and layout standpoint.  That's more a generational thing though.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 22, 2018, 09:34:34 PM
A thought just occurred to me. I have been distributing ROMs with the "System Enabler" part cut out. Later versions of the Enabler contain an "NQDResidentCursor" fragment, which seems to enable a hardware cursor. Maybe reinstating the Enabler will fix our occasional cursor problem.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on March 23, 2018, 02:14:28 AM
In fact, I can confirm that this is our problem. My MDD G4 just exhibited the same issue after booting from a ROM with everything present except for the Enabler!

Please bear with me while I rejig my build system to account for this.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on March 23, 2018, 06:22:16 AM
Very persuasive. Maybe I should broaden my efforts to understanding the Intrepid architecture better. Is any officially supported machine based on Intrepid?
I thought I had mentioned this somewhere here before.

Intrepid appeard (based on the apple hardware docs and the source for OS X) to contain both uninorth and keylargo.  The thing is when they are rolled up into one things do change due to being able to more tightly couple some functions.  Also changes were probably made to the keylargo portion to better support the layout and design of these G4 machines.  Communication out of and into Intrepid is probably routed differently.  It may function at a very low basic level, but as OS 9 boots it will try to enable the full feature set, but fail as it won't be able to properly communicate with the hardware pieces, specificly in the PMU.

OS X code for these chips is interesting.  The instruction out of keylargo and intrepid to the various parts are the same, but they go out on different memory addresses.  Since OS X doesn't actually rely as heavily on OF to initialize hardware, a lot of the OS X only machines may leave some of the required information out of the device configuration and thus out of the device tree.

Just my rough knowledge from my research.

Edited to add the following:
The chips external intrepid, if you dig deap into documentation, had the most commonality between the mini and the emac.  This is not shown by simply looking at the block diagram.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: nanopico on March 23, 2018, 08:37:14 AM
Now my curiosity got the best of me so I had to go look stuff up.
Intrepid has an extra usb port vs the older keylargo. 
There is an extra register for it.  To put the system to sleep, all three need to be suspended/set to sleep. Before the system sleeps it polls the USB controller to make sure it can sleep.
So OS 9 probablly doesn't know to put the thrid port/bus to sleep so the controller reports not ready so the system can't sleep or stuff properly.

Code: [Select]
   // USB for KeyLargo requires the FCR4 bits before any of the other registers are
    // touched. Since FCR4 is ALL USB, then I moved it to the top of the programming list
// USB for Intrepid also supports a third bus that uses FCR3

Not that this is proof, but it's an interesting comment from  the Keylargo code in the turnOffUSB method.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on March 23, 2018, 08:07:16 PM
I just wanted to take a second to chime in and say how you guys (all of you) are amazing for reaching this far, and committing to this so competently and consistently. Admirable.

Sorry I couldn't join the testers: I'm still waiting for the Firewire 400 card I ordered in January for my G3 Wallstreet (shipping anything overseas sucks in Brazil). Nonetheless, if anything isn't yet 100% functional by the time it arrives, it'd be an honor to join the cause. We will see...

Anyway, things are looking good for 7447a! At work, I eagerly lurk on this thread whenever I get the chance... :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on March 23, 2018, 08:37:36 PM
2. Remove the "Multiprocessing" folder from the System folder.  I did this as a precaution, perhaps not a necessity, but obviously you're not going to need it on this machine.  There's no sense chasing ghosts if you have a problem because of it.
(Bold emphasis mine.)

Actually, according to an Apple Note I read, it seems this may be not as obvious as one would normally (and understandably) speculate: https://web.archive.org/web/20020820202755/http://docs.info.apple.com:80/article.html?artnum=25048
Basically, according to this, even a single core single processor Mac is better off with it left intact. Interesting.

But hey, you guys mentioned waking from sleep problems, right? I know you all came to very good leads as to why that is happening, but could it be the last bit of that link I put also be related to it? I highlighted it in bold below:

"The files in this folder do not occupy any significant RAM or hard disk space, so you will not benefit by removing it. Although your Macintosh may have a single processor, we strongly discourage removing the Multiprocessing folder. Applications which are multiprocessor-aware rely on the software in this folder and may crash if it is not present. Also, some recent Macintosh models may not wake from sleep if this folder is removed."
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on March 24, 2018, 11:13:19 AM
...Is any officially supported machine based on Intrepid?
None.  :o

Intrepid was introduced into 2004 machines ... So... why Mac Os 9 works perfectly (in some machines) with it?

This may be the reason:
Intrepid appeard (based on the apple hardware docs and the source for OS X) to contain both uninorth and keylargo.  The thing is when they are rolled up into one things do change due to being able to more tightly couple some functions.  Also changes were probably made to the keylargo portion to better support the layout and design of these G4 machines.  Communication out of and into Intrepid is probably routed differently.  It may function at a very low basic level, but as OS 9 boots it will try to enable the full feature set, but fail as it won't be able to properly communicate with the hardware pieces, specificly in the PMU.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 25, 2018, 11:49:36 AM
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing)

Click "Download Anyway" after you have clicked Download.

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.


Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on March 25, 2018, 01:31:57 PM
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing)

Click "Download Anyway" after you have clicked Download.

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.
I was able to start downloading it, so I think it is public (I stopped downloading right after I started because I don't actually have a Mac Mini).
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on March 27, 2018, 06:42:03 AM
Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing)

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.

I downloaded and burnt it successfully, and used it on my Mac Mini 1.5 GHz. Held "C" on my keyboard, and it completed the entire boot sequence successfully. Awesome! But then a few issues started popping up:

- After the Desktop started loading, the screen seemed to try to adjust its resolution. I used a 1080p Samsung LED monitor/TV and, while I expected the screen to go dark from what I read happened to others, mine didn't. But the text on the desktop was completely messed up. Unreadable, save for a few letter combinations (barely). I tried adjusting monitor/resolution/color settings, but to no avail. I also noticed the control strip was missing, not sure if its extension was purposefully removed or if it just failed to load. All icons were such a blurry mess that I couldn't tell;

- Despite the aforementioned issue, I tried proceeding with installing OS 9 anyway. So, I ran what I believed mounted the image of the to-be-installed instance of Mac OS 9. That image was, seemingly, mounted successfully. When I opened the image's folder, I saw 3 folders and 3... blank icons, with some gibberish text underneath (again, probably because of my monitor: I don't think the actual text data was incorrect). I figured one of the 3 blank icons were supposed to handle the installation, but trying to open any of the 3 of them gives me an error. I couldn't read the error's message text.

And that's how it went for me. Not sure if any of that input of mine is of any use.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 27, 2018, 07:52:52 AM
Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing)

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.

I downloaded and burnt it successfully, and used it on my Mac Mini 1.5 GHz. Held "C" on my keyboard, and it completed the entire boot sequence successfully. Awesome! But then a few issues started popping up:

- After the Desktop started loading, the screen seemed to try to adjust its resolution. I used a 1080p Samsung LED monitor/TV and, while I expected the screen to go dark from what I read happened to others, mine didn't. But the text on the desktop was completely messed up. Unreadable, save for a few letter combinations (barely). I tried adjusting monitor/resolution/color settings, but to no avail. I also noticed the control strip was missing, not sure if its extension was purposefully removed or if it just failed to load. All icons were such a blurry mess that I couldn't tell;

- Despite the aforementioned issue, I tried proceeding with installing OS 9 anyway. So, I ran what I believed mounted the image of the to-be-installed instance of Mac OS 9. That image was, seemingly, mounted successfully. When I opened the image's folder, I saw 3 folders and 3... blank icons, with some gibberish text underneath (again, probably because of my monitor: I don't think the actual text data was incorrect). I figured one of the 3 blank icons were supposed to handle the installation, but trying to open any of the 3 of them gives me an error. I couldn't read the error's message text.

And that's how it went for me. Not sure if any of that input of mine is of any use.

I know the 1.5ghz models have double the vram of the others. Doubt that caused anything though but it might have done. I am using a Cinema Display 20" over DVI at 1680x1050 and I think 1080p might of had an issue(not sure). Maybe if you are using your TV with a DVI to HDMI adapter, use DVI to VGA instead. Or just a native DVI monitor. The three blank icons are just labels that read "Drag the 3 folders in to the root of your destination disk", they don't control the installation and are just in the disk image to guide you. Yeah so don't open the blank icons they won't do anything, you just drag the 3 folders above them to the root of a destination disk. If you have any other monitors at all, be sure to try those, see what happens.

Also, about the control strip, it is not included on this CD image, but it is on the image, inside of this image (it's in the copy that you install, just not on the CD)

Have a look at:
https://imgur.com/e3z5dYM

https://imgur.com/DJE5Kpq

(This is what it should look like when you have booted off the CD and mounted the image by running the Application)
You could try booting the CD and holding shift when you see the small Happy Macintosh to turn off extensions.
You could also try to copy the 3 folders from the Disk Image you mount to an erased Hard Disk with os 9 drivers (with drive setup) and reboot. If still same errors, try reset the PRAM. Maybe delete the Preferences folder from System Folder on the install copy and reboot. See if this gets you anywhere, else try a different monitor if you have one and report back.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 27, 2018, 08:46:47 AM
Quote
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

2 Minis arrived yesterday, I will Test CD Install

Ross, Which modified ROM version did you use ?,  Please make some notes. I will post it for the entire forum
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 27, 2018, 09:14:39 AM
Quote
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

2 Minis arrived yesterday, I will Test CD Install

Ross, Which modified ROM version did you use ?,  Please make some notes. I will post it for the entire forum

I am using the ROM that doesn't enable the mini to sleep at all, it will just say you have to shut down or cancel if you try to sleep. I chose this because it is not quite right if people put it to sleep and have to reboot to wake it up, so I will wait for some more progress on the ROM to update it. Think I am using the ROM from Post 267. Ignore the attachment I attached, on this very comment as it has not been stuffed.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on March 27, 2018, 09:24:45 AM
Alright Ross, I'll follow all of these directions and report back accordingly. I do have one CRT monitor to dust off, so I'll do that tonight. I'll also try connecting the Mini with a VGA adapter onto the TV/monitor's VGA slot instead of the HDMI one (as you have guessed, I did use a DVI-to-HDMI connector at first). That's a pretty good suggestion... I should have thought of that!

So excited to try this out! :D Also, somehow, only now I took notice of how you guys pointed out there are Mac OS 9 drivers for the Mini's GPU! That's awesome!
(I assumed this wouldn't be the case! I thought it'd be like the 1.67 GHz Aluminum PowerBooks... Which still make me wonder if their GPUs could be flashed with an earlier ATI GPU's ROM, slightly modified, that has OS 9 drivers...)
And, man, OS 9 looks so sexy on that 20" display... I'm green with envy! So awesome! Haha.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 27, 2018, 09:43:46 AM
Good luck. I must say by the way that I have only used a drag and drop installation method because I could not get Apple Software Restore to like the image file. Its on the toast image, in the System Folder, called OS9Base.img
It kept saying something like outdated checksum. Edit: if you did use Software Restore, not sure if it would work anyway because that base image does not have OS 9 drivers in. That is why you are taking the folders and putting it onto a Mac OS 9 driver formatted drive you can make with drive setup, instead of a full restore. Then boot from the drive. Works fine as it is.

Also, hint: To mount that OS9Base image on High Sierra or just any new OS X, it will say needs to be converted, but you can type in terminal:

hdid -nomount /Volumes/Mac\ mini\ G4\ OS\ 9\ CD/System\ Folder/OS9Base.img
 (then look at what is listed and type)
diskutil mount /dev/diskX
 (X being the number that was given to you)
(The layout of the blank icons and folders will look all messed up in OS X)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on March 27, 2018, 08:03:13 PM
I'm posting this from my Mac Mini, on OS 9. Ross, everything worked as planned. I didn't need to bring my CRT monitor along, afterall: picking up a VGA cable to plug directly on the monitor was all I needed. A DVI-to-VGA converter was used on the Mini's end.

(Note: At first I tried using the converter on the monitor/TV's end, combined with an analog-signal-capable DVI cable, but then the cable wouldn't have enough room to be plugged on it, due to the way it's physically constructed! That's why I had to switch the converter and cable around like I did.)

Also, as reported by others, no sound works at all, currently. Out of curiosity, I did try following DieHard's tip and partially plugged a pair of earphones, expecting sound to finally work, but no matter how much of it I plugged in or left unplugged, no sound came from either the Mini nor the earphones.

By the way, this LED monitor of mine really doesn't seem to be well-suited for anything other than HDMI, but, despite an odd "blur-to-the-right" shadow kinda thing, Mac OS 9 on the Mini is perfectly usable with it, visually. I'm currently using it at 1920x1080p 60Hz with Millions of colors pre-set, and it works just fine. The blur would be a bother for the eyes for daily use, so I think I'll dust off my CRT monitor anyway, but this is still pretty acceptable.

Again, I take my hat off to you guys' success on this. What an accomplishment, what a feat. With the respectful clock rate, and a driver-compatible GPU, it's as if the Mini was DESTINED to be mainly an OS 9 machine. :D This runs so juicily!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 28, 2018, 12:05:57 AM
@Jubadub

Great you got your Mac mini to boot OS 9 and run it well. I have also had problems with HDMI to DVI.

To get sound, try and connect the Mac mini to a speaker that has a volume control on, for example: Digital Keyboard, Amp, hifi, radio. Because the Mac mini will only output its volume at a certain volume, you would use the volume control on the speaker to raise/lower the volume. My mini is connected to a hifi and has sound.

If you have been testing the platinum sounds (like when closing, moving, expanding windows) you will have to enable them in Appearance Control Panel.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on March 28, 2018, 06:20:43 AM
Ah, yes, a device with volume control, I knew I was forgetting something. I'll try out a pair of speakers with volume control tonight, thanks for the heads up. :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on March 28, 2018, 08:18:48 AM
... With the respectful clock rate, and a driver-compatible GPU, it's as if the Mini was DESTINED to be mainly an OS 9 machine. :D This runs so juicily!
That's what I always thought, I had one at its time and after failing Mac Os 9 booting using the mythical Custer ROM, I sold it.  >:(

BTW: Can the Mac Mini unique RAM slot work with a 2Gb DDR RAM DIM?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on March 28, 2018, 08:26:14 AM
Every source I read stated 1 GB being the absolute maximum, but I guess it couldn't hurt to try, if anyone has both a PPC Mini and that particular DIM...
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: LightBulbFun on March 28, 2018, 08:59:48 AM
a pair 2GB DDR1 UDIMM is something I have been looking for, for a long time

the RackMac3,1 (Xserve G5) the 2005 one was compatible with them.

the thing is there are plenty of 2GB DDR1 RDIMMs out there registered DIMMs dont work in PPC macs, you need un-registered DIMMs and 2GB ones are neigh on impossible to find (for cheap anyway) I have never seen any on ebay

although kingston did make a kit for the Xserve (they are ECC but not registered) I have not been able to track down any,

as well testing a 2GB UDIMM in a MM G4 I would love to try them out in my PowerMac G5 7,3s (both my 2004 one and 2005 have the U3 heavy memory controller which supports ECC RAM and im hoping the 2005 PowerMac7,3 can boot with 2GB DDR1 sticks and max out at 16GB Just like how the 2005 Xserves do) the Kingston kit in question is the kta-g5400e/4g (a kit of 2 2GB ECC DDR1 UDIMMs)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 28, 2018, 07:36:41 PM
From Mactron...
Quote
BTW: Can the Mac Mini unique RAM slot work with a 2Gb DDR RAM DIM?

I was at this all day today, trying all sorts of RAM in the single slot of both the Mini 1.25 and Mini 1.33 that I got on eBay... 1 GB is the max.

I burnt the CD from Ross via the finder in a Mac Pro 3.1 with el cap... neither MINI will boot to it, So I ran the mini in target mode and transferred the folders from the "Ross" image... still a blinking folder with no boot :(   Have to give it more that 30 minutes tomorrow
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 28, 2018, 11:11:43 PM
From Mactron...
Quote
BTW: Can the Mac Mini unique RAM slot work with a 2Gb DDR RAM DIM?

I was at this all day today, trying all sorts of RAM in the single slot of both the Mini 1.25 and Mini 1.33 that I got on eBay... 1 GB is the max.

I burnt the CD from Ross via the finder in a Mac Pro 3.1 with el cap... neither MINI will boot to it, So I ran the mini in target mode and transferred the folders from the "Ross" image... still a blinking folder with no boot :(   Have to give it more that 30 minutes tomorrow

Diehard are you definitely burning the whole image instead of just the HFS volume. Make sure you don't mount the toast image and just right click the toast image and choose "burn disk image to disc" because there are the other mac os 9 drivers on that disc image required. Also if you just transfer the files from the base image make sure your mini's internal disk has os 9 drivers and if its blessed. Otherwise not sure because Jubadub and I have it working. Do your minis boot of an X disc?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: grhmhome on March 29, 2018, 07:34:30 AM
Things seem to be going well for the Mac mini, so I have made this Disk Image that you can burn to a CD.

Boot the Mac mini off this CD once you have burned this disk image, and you can setup your drive and install Mac OS 9.2.2 onto the Mac mini, from the CD.

When new ROMs are out and stuff and things need changing, it should not be too hard to change this disk image, because I have kept the read/write base system (uncompressed). The image inside of this disk image is a compressed version of that read/write one, so it becomes read only, and it fits on the disc.

Here is the bootable toast file. I burned it from High Sierra on a Mac Pro and I used it to install perfectly on my Mac mini G4 (1.42).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxHj55T83Wn9US-9RAQPga_XAOj37UCn/view?usp=sharing)

Click "Download Anyway" after you have clicked Download.

Tell me if that is a public link, and if you try this let me know if it worked or not.

Wow, thank you. I am going to give this a try on my Mac Mini. Cheers!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 29, 2018, 07:54:59 AM
Wow, thank you. I am going to give this a try on my Mac Mini. Cheers!

Good luck. Just remember to burn the image by right clicking the toast file and select "burn disk image to disc"

Don't burn the HFS volume on its own. To test if it has burned right (whole image) put the CD back in the OS X machine, pull up a terminal and type "diskutil list". If multiple partitions are shows under the CD, including Apple_Partition_Map, and others ASWELL as the HFS+ partition, then you have done it correct.  (Only HFS partition will mount, but the others HAVE to be on the CD.)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: grhmhome on March 29, 2018, 08:56:46 AM

Good luck. Just remember to burn the image by right clicking the toast file and select "burn disk image to disc"

Don't burn the HFS volume on its own. To test if it has burned right (whole image) put the CD back in the OS X machine, pull up a terminal and type "diskutil list". If multiple partitions are shows under the CD, including Apple_Partition_Map, and others ASWELL as the HFS+ partition, then you have done it correct.  (Only HFS partition will mount, but the others HAVE to be on the CD.)

I got it to work by converting .toast to .iso with Windows. The only issue I had was that 2 of my USB mice wouldn't work, but I found a older USB mouse that I thought was broken, but it works. The first mouse that I used is one that I use all the time, but when the drive setup window appears the mouse freezes. The 2nd mouse will work, but when the drive setup window appears, it will float to the bottom of the screen. The 3rd mouse which I thought was broken, works with no issues. Thanks again. I'll report back to this thread if I find any issues. Specs: I'm using a G4 1.33 GHZ Mac Mini with 1GB of ram, USB Magic Keyboard, and a Samsung 1920x1080 monitor.

Edit: I was able to use my ethernet out of the box. I installed Classzilla and am going to get GraphicConver US Classic to work since very old versions are now free to use. I'm using that so I can convert my screenshots to png or jpg. So much nostalgia to be had. Now, I just need some retro themes to pimp my classic mac desktop. I did find one issue, but not a serious one. When I downloaded the .sit file for the image converter, I tried opening the .sit file from Classilla's download manager and it almost froze the desktop. I got a message where I couldn't open the .sit file, so I had to open stuffit expander 6.x. Fortunately the desktop didn't crash.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on March 29, 2018, 10:20:16 AM
Mystery figured out, I was multitasking and did not realize that the Mini had 250GB hard drives.... that's what I get for being old and working on too much at once, so the boot partition was too large for OS9, re-partitioned into 2 and voila, image works fine :)

Can't wait to test it out later on :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 29, 2018, 11:01:59 AM

Edit: I was able to use my ethernet out of the box. I installed Classzilla and am going to get GraphicConver US Classic to work since very old versions are now free to use. I'm using that so I can convert my screenshots to png or jpg. So much nostalgia to be had. Now, I just need some retro themes to pimp my classic mac desktop. I did find one issue, but not a serious one. When I downloaded the .sit file for the image converter, I tried opening the .sit file from Classilla's download manager and it almost froze the desktop. I got a message where I couldn't open the .sit file, so I had to open stuffit expander 6.x. Fortunately the desktop didn't crash.

Nice try getting Stuffit Deluxe from here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,1280.0.html

Extract the sea file before getting rid of Stuffit 6 just incase.

After extracted, remove all programs related to and including Stuffit 6

Then install stuffit deluxe 7.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 29, 2018, 11:02:54 AM
Mystery figured out, I was multitasking and did not realize that the Mini had 250GB hard drives.... that's what I get for being old and working on too much at once, so the boot partition was too large for OS9, re-partitioned into 2 and voila, image works fine :)

Can't wait to test it out later on :)

Great to hear.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 29, 2018, 01:10:46 PM
Attempting to make Apple Software Restore (ASR) for the mini, will be nicer to use than the drag and drop in my opinion and easier to understand. Just found a little guide in DHIDAW about it, so I am seeing what I can do.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 29, 2018, 02:37:43 PM
I've put together a new toast image that uses ASR to intall Mac OS 9 now (instead of drag and drop). Works well. I have also put a CD extras folder on this image which includes Bugdom, USB Overdrive and Classilla 9.3.3, for if you wish to install those. I will upload this toast image tomorrow because have got to go for a bit.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 30, 2018, 05:45:35 AM
Removed. See my post below for ISO file instead of Toast.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ry755 on March 30, 2018, 02:01:45 PM
The install image worked! And yeah, it's much better than draging and dropping. Posting this from my G4 Mini! :D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on March 31, 2018, 02:44:50 AM
Here is an ISO file, with better credits in the Read Me file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZWthPpEkt_eNgpdJDZpCweXqMi9fXxgf/view?usp=sharing
Click Download Anyway, after you have clicked Download.
If you use Chrome, it may say this file can harm your computer, make sure to NOT discard it and instead keep it, by going to Chrome://downloads

Mac mini G4s will boot off this if this ISO is burned to a CD/DVD.
(Uses Apple Software Restore instead of Drag and Drop, nicer way to install the OS)
This image will be read & write if you are using Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard and below, so lock the file to avoid writing to it. Windows users, you probably won't be able to read this file at all, but you can still burn it.

To burn this file
On Mac OS X, without opening the toast file, right click on the toast file and select "Burn Disk Image "Mac mini OS 9 CD.iso" to Disc..."

If this option does not show up, open up Disk Utility, deselect anything that is selected then press burn. Select the toast file and burn it.

On Mac OS 9, you can use Toast application to burn the ISO file. Make sure to select bootable options.

On Windows, right click the ISO and choose burn disc image to disk.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 01, 2018, 08:17:21 AM
Great to see so many people having fun with their minis! Attached is a ROM with a couple more tweaks: now it declares the machine to be a PowerMac3,5 (Quicksilver 2002), and contains a System Enabler (which might help with the frozen-mouse problem).

I have spent a bit of time picking apart the NanoKernel's interrupt handling code, mostly out of curiosity. The interrupt architecture of the Classic Mac OS is very unusual: PowerPC interrupts get serviced by emulated 68k handlers. This "temporary hack" was supposed to be replaced by Copland's PowerPC-native interrupt architecture within a couple of years of the introduction of the Power Mac. But instead, the Copland model was grafted *on top* of the Classic 68k model. The code that implements all this within a multitasking environment is hard to reverse, full of edge cases, and very very fast. I think that this kind of "liberating desperation" is what attracts a lot of us to the Classic Mac OS.

But when I get back to the mini, I intend to sort out first sound, then sleep.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 01, 2018, 12:59:29 PM
@ELN, nice new ROM, I will put this in the ASR CD tomorrow. Here is a little Custom Mac mini G4 Picture, if you look carefully I changed the CD that is out half way to an OS 9 CD.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 01, 2018, 01:02:42 PM
something tells me i should better stay away from files uploaded today.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on April 01, 2018, 06:27:38 PM
@ELN, nice new ROM, I will put this in the ASR CD tomorrow. Here is a little Custom Mac mini G4 Picture, if you look carefully I changed the CD that is out half way to an OS 9 CD.

OK... that image is awesome !
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on April 01, 2018, 06:29:31 PM
Great to see so many people having fun with their minis! Attached is a ROM with a couple more tweaks: now it declares the machine to be a PowerMac3,5 (Quicksilver 2002), and contains a System Enabler (which might help with the frozen-mouse problem).

But when I get back to the mini, I intend to sort out first sound, then sleep.

Nooooo, the "Cube" thing was really cool... let's take a vote....
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 01, 2018, 06:52:03 PM
Great picture, RossDarker. :D

The only reason I’ve changed the reported model is that there could well be some code somewhere that checks it anc changed behaviour on that basis. That would be a very nasty hack, but I have seen it happen. I’ll investigate further.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 02, 2018, 07:03:14 AM
... and contains a System Enabler (which might help with the frozen-mouse problem).

As you know I was using the Mac Mini develop, with my unsupported Mac, with great successful. But I had never suffered the frozen-mouse problem ...
What I suffer is a sporadic and continous  "open upper drive" command that last a few time, and don't allow the drive plate to be closed, what ever you do, it is forced to stay open. While this is occurring, the mouse is frozen,  I had thougth that the drive was damaged, and the mouse is stopped as a typical effect of an IOWait...
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 02, 2018, 11:28:10 AM
@ELN, I have made an ASR CD with the new ROM (Quicksilver identity and that System Enabler). The mouse cursor has not frozen at all but the sound coming out through speakers is either really loud or distorted. I have tested things and this does not happen with the older ROM. For now I will just have the link to a G4 Cube identity as that has better sound for the Mac mini. Do you know the reason behind this sound issue?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 02, 2018, 04:13:42 PM
Uh-oh! Better revert to the Cube ROM. But I expect that a batter unterstanding of the prim-info structure will clear this up.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 02, 2018, 05:05:38 PM
   From what I can tell, the signal from the Mini is essentially coming out at maximum gain by default without the Sound control panel able to set proper variables.  Whatever program is supplying the audio source has to have its own level control or else the content can be loud enough to cause distortion or clipping.  Certainly this was the case when I was testing MP3 playback with WinAmp.  Presumably the Mac OS ROM has some machine-specific overrides that have unpredictable results if applied to another unintended machine model.  It would be nice if we knew how to cap the gain to a safe maximum on the Mini, at least as it applies to line level signal output.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 03, 2018, 07:29:12 AM
Does anyone know how I can get the CD background (tile). The one that is the desktop background when you boot a generic Apple OS 9 CD (I have some such as 9.2.1 and 9.1), that do this. I never found where the tile was stored because there was no Appearance folder in the System Folder of these CD's. Also I tried opening up an Appearance Control Panel and it says I am using a Custom Theme (this is off the CD). And when I click Save Theme, it asks me to name the theme, then nothing else happens. Probably because CD's are Read-Only. But it would not let me save on the hard disk. Anyone know how I can get this to be the background when you boot the Mac mini CD?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 03, 2018, 08:26:51 AM
The Startup CD folder is based on The MacTron's System folder, we just remove a few files. This folder is used in almost all ASR disks because is damn fast, optimized and powerful. An so the desktop picture, wich is a 8bit 8x8 pattern -you will liked or not- nothing is fastest and lighter to load, which is very importan when botting from a CD.

Apple uses this "CD background" to note that such System folder only and only can be used on a CD, never it could boot into a HD or other media, which is not the case of this reducted MacTron's System folder that can - alternatively - be used as a drag and drop startup folder in a emergency case. Of course it lacks some utilities, like control strip bar that dramatically reduce the responsiveness of the system. Any way items like this can be added latter if someone consider that it's utility is more than the system performance drawback.

But If you insist... the background you are searching for, is in the System file of a booting Apple CD (or image)  ;)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 03, 2018, 08:43:32 AM
shouldnt the question be how to generally have a background image in finder windows wwithout third party extensions.

i believe the regular window background (white?) never was in the region of appearance stuff, it is most likely in the system siutcase, eventually not even as standard bitmap resource.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 03, 2018, 08:49:13 AM
oh you are asking desktop background (it is a while ago that i saw an OS9 installation :))
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 03, 2018, 08:50:12 AM
Yep, if the CD Background means a slower boot, I will just keep it as it it.
Title: Overclock Mini?
Post by: FdB on April 03, 2018, 11:17:04 AM
1.25GHz Mini yet to arrive and already considering
overclocking to 1.5 and a larger than 80mb HD. :o

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/fastest-flash-and-using-a-pencil-to-overclock.1973903/
Title: Re: Overclock Mini?
Post by: RossDarker on April 03, 2018, 11:41:14 AM
1.25GHz Mini yet to arrive and already considering
overclocking to 1.5 and a larger than 80mb HD. :o

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/fastest-flash-and-using-a-pencil-to-overclock.1973903/

Good stuff. 80MB is quite small though.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 03, 2018, 11:42:25 AM

But If you insist... the background you are searching for, is in the System file of a booting Apple CD (or image)  ;)

Probably won't use the CD background, but I cannot find it in the System file of the 9.2.1 CD with ResEdit, what resource is it in and what ID?
Title: Re: Overclock Mini?
Post by: IIO on April 03, 2018, 11:47:56 AM
1.25GHz Mini yet to arrive and already considering
overclocking to 1.5 and a larger than 80mb HD. :o

i´ve got a 1,25 1,33 and 1,42 here, the 1.5 silent upgrade is hard to find (and i am not sure if 5.5% are worth the hassle.)

the 1.5 is about as rare as the mini server and sellers asking for fantasy prices.
Title: Re: Overclock Mini?
Post by: RossDarker on April 03, 2018, 11:51:12 AM
1.25GHz Mini yet to arrive and already considering
overclocking to 1.5 and a larger than 80mb HD. :o

i´ve got a 1,25 1,33 and 1,42 here, the 1.5 silent upgrade is hard to find (and i am not sure if 5.5% are worth the hassle.)

the 1.5 is aboputt as rare as the mini server and sellers asking for fantasy prices.

I think the silent upgrade also has a SuperDrive (burn DVDs, unlike the others with Combo) and think it also has Airport & Bluetooth default (but that won't work in os 9 right now)
Title: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on April 04, 2018, 05:50:20 AM
MacTron I have made a few changes to the ISO/toast CD for the Mac mini. The old link will no longer work so replace it with:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xbVMhxEyMnHN78ZLswc5GhZz6q3miAhI/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 04, 2018, 05:52:14 AM
New ISO CD (just changed a few things in CD Extras, and the Read Me): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xbVMhxEyMnHN78ZLswc5GhZz6q3miAhI/view?usp=sharing


Burning methods are still the same from my post about the previous ISO on page 5.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 04, 2018, 06:40:08 AM
i see people in forums from back then claiming that they have run the 1,25 overclocked to 1,75 with "no poblems".

whatever that means for application stability and temperature ... under MacOS9(!) ... but 40% more cycles is tasty.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 04, 2018, 01:43:19 PM
i see people in forums from back then claiming that they have run the 1,25 overclocked to 1,75 with "no poblems".

whatever that means for application stability and temperature ... under MacOS9(!) ... but 40% more cycles is tasty.

The 7447A@1.42 car run at 1.66 Mhz without a glitch. Some of them can achieve the 1.826 Mhz. I don't know if those are a faster factory rated chips, or just best quality chips (as NewerTech and Sonnet have claimed)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: MacTron on April 04, 2018, 01:45:16 PM
MacTron I have made a few changes to the ISO/toast CD for the Mac mini. The old link will no longer work so replace it with:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xbVMhxEyMnHN78ZLswc5GhZz6q3miAhI/view?usp=sharing
Updated!
Thanks
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 04, 2018, 01:47:35 PM
Probably won't use the CD background, but I cannot find it in the System file of the 9.2.1 CD with ResEdit, what resource is it in and what ID?
I's on ppat resource ID 16.

You can also add a startup screen like this:
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2408.0;attach=5065)
... which I have discarded a it's moment ...  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 04, 2018, 02:19:09 PM
Thanks for the resource id for the desktop tile. I created a few startup screen I could have used for the Mac mini but decided that people probably like default. I converted your JPG to a PICT resource in PS7 and looks quite nice when you boot up.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 04, 2018, 02:23:59 PM
You can also add a startup screen like this:

+1
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: IIO on April 04, 2018, 02:25:37 PM
did any of you already try to add OSX again to a fresh OS9 mini?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on April 04, 2018, 02:45:43 PM
did any of you already try to add OSX again to a fresh OS9 mini?

Yes and it only ever gets to a Prohibitory Symbol. Doing a Verbose Boot of X hangs at a specific line. I think its the disk drivers because when I erase it with terminal, I can boot X but not 9!! (Even with OS9Drivers option). Booting 9 after an X install gives a flashing ? On a floppy, but X boots fine, but booting X after 9 install will only boot 9). Not quite sure why but that seems to be the case when I tried anyway. I dual boot Tiger and Z1-9.2.2 on my tiBook. For my Mac mini, I boot 9 from internal drive, and Tiger from a FW disk, and that works great.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: IIO on April 04, 2018, 04:20:28 PM
uh. i am tired. i had to remove both my comments because you already answered it. :D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: DieHard on April 05, 2018, 08:36:04 PM
Mactron, I remember a youtube guy saying your "Well Tempered" Mac OS logo you made for my ARS install had a typo, just though I would mention that for future reference, I think he meant a spelling error ?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 06, 2018, 03:59:51 AM
I would prefer that changes be made to the part of the OS that has actually been modified: the NewWorld ROM. Otherwise we're changing parts of the System file that were language-localised. How about a subtle, non-textual tweak to the Happy Mac icon? I have attached a BinHexed resource file containing the 'cicn' resource from the ROM.

Funky desktop patterns are, of course, super cool!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 06, 2018, 05:48:24 AM
cant the startup screen be added by placing a picture file in the system? like in OSX?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 06, 2018, 06:05:55 AM
@IIO doesn't that get rid the extensions loading, like you don't see them loading but they are.
I've just been doing things like this:

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2408.0;attach=5072)
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2408.0;attach=5070)

and this keeps all the progress things viewable.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 06, 2018, 06:15:27 AM
Mactron, I remember a youtube guy saying your "Well Tempered" Mac OS logo you made for my ARS install had a typo, just though I would mention that for future reference, I think he meant a spelling error ?
The sentence is based on J.S Bach "Das wohltemperierte Klavier" work, which is translate into "The well-tempered clavier"  while in some places appears as  "The wel tempered clavier" may be that's the typo...
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 06, 2018, 06:18:58 AM
cant the startup screen be added by placing a picture file in the system? like in OSX?
Yes, it can. Any PICT file named "Startup Screen" can be used.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 06, 2018, 06:19:25 AM
Wouldn't you say 'tampered' if you've changed and fiddled around with stuff.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 06, 2018, 06:22:12 AM
I would prefer that changes be made to the part of the OS that has actually been modified: the NewWorld ROM. Otherwise we're changing parts of the System file that were language-localised. How about a subtle, non-textual tweak to the Happy Mac icon? I have attached a BinHexed resource file containing the 'cicn' resource from the ROM.

Funky desktop patterns are, of course, super cool!

I'm Agree.
Furthermore, the changes should be as neutral as possible, and never should implie a overload of the system, nor minimum.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 06, 2018, 09:18:40 AM
Wouldn't you say 'tampered' if you've changed and fiddled around with stuff.

So true!

  The only things I really ever desired as improvements were clearly showing the OS sub-version number (ie, 9.2.2 rather than just 9.2), and a verbose boot display mode akin to how OS X does it.  The option to manually step through extension loading one-by-one while in verbose display mode would be a nice bonus.  I'm still hoping for some sort of 'pre-boot' text-based PRAM editor that uses plain english rather than the 'cryptic' OF commands, basically a 'friendly' OF UI and boot menu.  PCs almost always had BIOS post screen and menus, while Apple gives you virtually nothing lest poor timid Apple users run terrified from their computers at the slightest sight of 'details' or 'text'.  I find it maddening that we can't even see a basic early RAM count - instead we get an extra-helpful black screen.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on April 06, 2018, 11:36:35 AM
Wouldn't you say 'tampered' if you've changed and fiddled around with stuff.

So true!

  The only things I really ever desired as improvements were clearly showing the OS sub-version number (ie, 9.2.2 rather than just 9.2), and a verbose boot display mode akin to how OS X does it.  The option to manually step through extension loading one-by-one while in verbose display mode would be a nice bonus.  I'm still hoping for some sort of 'pre-boot' text-based PRAM editor that uses plain english rather than the 'cryptic' OF commands, basically a 'friendly' OF UI and boot menu.  PCs almost always had BIOS post screen and menus, while Apple gives you virtually nothing lest poor timid Apple users run terrified from their computers at the slightest sight of 'details' or 'text'.  I find it maddening that we can't even see a basic early RAM count - instead we get an extra-helpful black screen.

I have some knowledge of OF and have successfully used the client interface api. I may eventually be able to do the things you want.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on April 06, 2018, 01:39:55 PM
I would prefer that changes be made to the part of the OS that has actually been modified: the NewWorld ROM. Otherwise we're changing parts of the System file that were language-localised. How about a subtle, non-textual tweak to the Happy Mac icon? I have attached a BinHexed resource file containing the 'cicn' resource from the ROM.

Funky desktop patterns are, of course, super cool!

I agree to this sentiment.

If I also may add, I know some people will prefer everything cosmetic left untouched, to feel like the "true" OS 9 is truly available on their otherwise-unsupported machine. And it is a "true" OS 9 when nothing but the NewWorldROM is tampered with, since it's the minimum, one and only modification truly required!

Maybe y'all may want to offer more than 1 download option by the end, for the sake of making cosmetic changes a choice? Or keep it raw and provide directions for such modification... Or whatever else y'all find better, really. :)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 06, 2018, 01:44:10 PM
Yeah right now I have just kept the mini CD between the Unsupported G4's CD and a Generic CD, as in I have left the startup screen as it is, and the finder, but it still uses some elements from as what MacTron called the "MacTron System Folder" (fast boot desktop background and stuff).
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: Jubadub on April 06, 2018, 02:37:12 PM
did any of you already try to add OSX again to a fresh OS9 mini?

Yes and it only ever gets to a Prohibitory Symbol. Doing a Verbose Boot of X hangs at a specific line. I think its the disk drivers because when I erase it with terminal, I can boot X but not 9!! (Even with OS9Drivers option). Booting 9 after an X install gives a flashing ? On a floppy, but X boots fine, but booting X after 9 install will only boot 9). Not quite sure why but that seems to be the case when I tried anyway. I dual boot Tiger and Z1-9.2.2 on my tiBook. For my Mac mini, I boot 9 from internal drive, and Tiger from a FW disk, and that works great.

Not sure if it counts, but I kept both OS 9 and OS X 10.4.11 Tiger Client on the same internal, physical HDD, but each in a different logical partition. When in OS 9 or when booting with Option (AKA Alt) pressed, I can pick either OS 9 or OS X without any problem whatsoever, but when in OS X, it won't allow me to pick OS 9. (In that case, I just reboot holding Option, so no biggie.)

Oh, also, that was an EXCELLENT post, MacTron! It's very helpful. :) It's one of the things I have been searching for when I joined.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on April 06, 2018, 02:58:01 PM
I forgot to mention something unrelated in my earlier post: I never provided feedback on later experiences I had with the Mini!

So, in order of importance:
- As others also experienced, sound finally worked on the Mini once I got a sound device plugged that has a proper, analog volume controller. Unfortunately, sound is way too low for me to actually be able to enjoy music or sound in general, be it through gaming or by listening to music as a standalone, especially since the Mini's fans almost outdo the volume of the Mini sound;
- As a few others also noted, sometimes after booting or rebooting OS 9, the mouse won't move. It's not that it doesn't work, because clickling still works. But the cursor is frozen in place. Rebooting again normally solves the problem, but the behavior is indeed abnormal;
- I do get the impression the Mini's fans are louder than when using OS X on the Mini, even when nothing much is running. I believe ELN already elaborated on this if my memory serves me right, but I'm also stating my experience to further confirm to others what is the current situation of things. For me, at least so far, the fan isn't really that much of a problem: it is not obnoxiously louder.


I'm not sure if this is also relevant, but as I mentioned in another thread, I formatted my internal HDD with 2 HFS+ partitions, one with OS 9 only, and another with OS X Tiger 10.4.11 Client only. I can boot on either one just fine, too.

But there is one not-so-important problem I noticed: While I can run apps just fine in OS 9, I can't run those same OS 9 apps well (it freezes the picture a lot) on Classic when it is configured to use the OS 9 installation from the other partition (rather than its own internal one, which I'm not yet sure if it is missing, if it doesn't come with my Tiger install CDs or if it IS indeed missing simply because I overlooked something). I don't know if this happens simply because OS 9 is in another partition or because of the modified video drivers, ROM and/or absence of the Multiprocessing folder that are currently required to boot OS 9 on the Mini natively. Or because of some other reason.

I figured mentioning this can't hurt, even if it is not all that relevant.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 06, 2018, 04:08:35 PM
Doesn't the Classic environment use "Mac OS X Fake Finder v1.0" and a system suitcase, that are both found in /System/Library/CoreServices/ There should be a System Suitcase, that I think classic uses, and two items called Finder. If you get info on both Finders in the CoreServices directory, 1 is just the OS X finder, but the other has a version string of "Mac OS X Fake Finder v1.0", and if you open that fake finder in textedit, it looks just like a Mac OS ROM. If I remember correctly that is.

When I got my mini off ebay, it came with all its box and polystyrene inside and manuals and CDs and there were 3 CDs: The two Restore disks, the first is OS X 10.3.7 and the second has Mac OS 9 and additional software on. The 3rd CD is titled Mac OS 9, with the words Mac mini underneath and this contains an install package that installs the latest 9.2.2 to run in Classic, I believe no Mac OS ROM is installed by this CD, unless this is the CD that makes "Mac OS X Fake Finder", which seemed to be a Mac OS ROM, but placed in the CoreServices of OS X system instead of the System Folder the classic CD installs. When you run classic environment after install, it does not say anything about updating it to work in classic.

If you want I can make a disk image of that 3rd CD so you can use Classic stuff in OS X, but better to just boot the modified os 9 for the mini.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on April 06, 2018, 04:15:42 PM
Not sure if it counts, but I kept both OS 9 and OS X 10.4.11 Tiger Client on the same internal, physical HDD, but each in a different logical partition. When in OS 9 or when booting with Option (AKA Alt) pressed, I can pick either OS 9 or OS X without any problem whatsoever, but when in OS X, it won't allow me to pick OS 9. (In that case, I just reboot holding Option, so no biggie.)

I tried that too. What did you use to initialize the disk, Drive Setup on the Mac mini CD? When I tried Drive Setup, both partitions would show up with openfirmware "multi-boot" (option key at startup), 9 would boot but X would hang.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Daniel on April 06, 2018, 04:25:28 PM
The fake finder and fake suitcase are there to prevent an OS9 system from un-blessing the directory by mistake (and for booting X on Old World Macs). They have no bearing on Classic.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 06, 2018, 04:43:44 PM
Before we could boot OS 9 on the minis, I used classic in tiger and there was never a Mac OS ROM file, it wasn't invisible either. Definitely wasn't one in the classic System Folder. It must have taken it from somewhere else, but I see what you mean about blessing, because Finder and System and the drag and drop thing.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 06, 2018, 04:58:43 PM
like jub says, the built-in speaker is so low that it is almost impossible to use it for anything more than the warning beep. so this seems to be the least important.

but the headphone jack, which was also affected by the same illness, might be a solution which musicians can already enjoy. though it is not very loud either, some -15db according to my mackie bus...

i will upgrade 4 of my minis with audio interfaces (edirol, behringer) in the next days and see how practicable it is to use usb or firewire IOs - which raises the clutter on the desk, but provides better dynamic and lower latency for the use of the mini as musical instrument.

which brings me to the question that, if a mini is upgraded with OS9, if ASIO streams might also have problems (i.e. not only for the ASIO Soundmanager but also for device drivers)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 06, 2018, 05:41:42 PM
You've just got to make the volume louder from the external speaker. Lile you can't change the volume from the OS, but I can get range from very quiet to very loud by using the volume control (physical + and - buttons) on the hifi I am using over aux. Not sure the internal speaker works at all does it?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 06, 2018, 09:42:23 PM
  I'm getting plenty of level from the Mini's output passed through a mixer to powered monitors.  It appears to be driving at line level, so basic powered speakers that are expecting a headphone driving output level from the jack will not likely get much volume.  If it goes through something else with a proper preamp first then there should be no problem, or a typical hifi amp/speaker combo alternatively.  Even my relatively small Fostex powered monitors blast air in my face from the bass ports when I crank some House music!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 07, 2018, 11:10:32 AM
it is nice to hear that you guys seem to connect speakers directly to your minis, but that was not exactly my plan. :D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 07, 2018, 08:26:06 PM
A reminder: the latest mini ROM (grab a copy here) works with the Apple CPU Plugins file. If you disable the file, the mini will run hot and loud!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 07, 2018, 11:31:27 PM
The OF properties for the i2s-a device (as opposed to the i2s-b device, which is the modem) seem to match my FW800-cum-FW400 pretty well. It doesn't look like an OF fix will work here.

Here's where I am on the Apple Audio Extension.

Never before have I needed to patch a PEF container that lives in a data fork with other containers. I found that the easiest way to do it was to move all the data fork binaries to 'ndrv' resources, which patchpef handles well. If anyone is interested, I have attached an extension with that change made ("AudExtR"). The new ndrvs have resource IDs in the range 13000-13021.

That being done, I have patchpef'd the I2SAudioPlugin to dump some rudimentary output from "__SndIOInitialize" to the NK log. It seems to get called twice during boot. More to come, of course.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 07, 2018, 11:39:08 PM
I2SAudioPlugin looks up these OF properties:

Code: [Select]
driver-ist
AAPL,address
i2s-serial-format
mclk-sample-rate-ratio

BTW, any chance we could sticky this thread?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 02:35:18 AM
Think you should only have the Custom Happy Mac on the bootable CD, keeping the installed system a generic happy mac. By the way will the ROM from post #267 work with the CPU plugins, does the thing just go in the Multiprocessing folder in Extensions? Also are the CPU plugins from post #286? I could use your latest ROM on the CD, and ROM from 267 in the System you install. I can update the CD iso again with these things.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 08, 2018, 03:51:14 AM
RossDarker that's a fair point. But I still think that it makes better sense to attach a visible mark to all the code that we have substantially modified, and to leave everything else alone.

As a rule, I can only vouch for the latest file that I have posted. I try to work on one patch branch at a time (currently "aggressive-mini-power-mgt" in powermac-rom and "mini-pmu-fix" in newworld-rom). For posterity I keep old branches and archive old releases, but I forget about these very quickly. Don't use them!

The latest ROM *is* compatible with a *stock* Apple CPU Plugins file. Apple's "Core99Plugin" freezes when trying to read the nonexistent THRM registers on a 7450-family CPU, but I work around this with a NanoKernel patch. Without the Apple CPU Plugins file, the CPU will be unable to take brief "naps" when the OS is idle, so the mini will run hot, causing the fans to spin up and make a racket.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 03:55:53 AM
Okay, so I will change the ROM in both the CD and the Base System. Just to clarify, should I just use the CPU plugins from a generic apple install (or from the standard Unsupported G4's CD), or your hacked up ones for the mini (from #286)?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 04:24:52 AM
I think this was mentioned with an earlier ROM too, but your latest ROM can put the Mac mini to sleep, with the screen going off, but the Sleep light does not pulse and you can still hear stuff going on inside the mini. And then can't wake up.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 08, 2018, 04:28:44 AM
Use a stock Apple CPU Plugins file. With the NanoKernel patches in the ROM, hacks to the CPU Plugins file are no longer needed.

And use this ROM file! It will not be automatically booted on non-mini machines, lest the prim-info patch muck something up.

Until we get sleep working, perhaps tweak the installed Energy Saver preferences to disable automatic sleep?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 05:01:37 AM
Ok I am using am using CPU plugins from my TiBook, where the version has a Z in (4.0, Copyright Apple Computer, Inc. 1994-2002 Mac OS CPU Software Z-5.6). (attached) This seem to go well with the latest ROM for fan behaviour. Like if I run Bugdom, the fans will get louder, and when I quit, they go back quiet. I think Bugdom is always a good test because it uses Sound, requires QD3D, Hardware acceleration, and will make fans run faster, so you get an idea of what works. I probably won't put the ROM+CPU plugins on the CD as default yet, until the box that says "Your computer cannot go to sleep, because some System Software is missing" (when you try to sleep), or until sleep works correctly. Although, I could make it a thing you can install from the "CD Extras" folder on the CD, which changes the ROM to the latest and adds in the CPU plugins, if people know about the sleep not waking up.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 08, 2018, 06:08:24 AM
This (version 3.9) seems to be the stock one in Mac OS 9.2.2 (US English). (I'd guess that only the copyright string is different between language packs.) Your version 4.0 is probably the better one to use, but I'll leave the choice to you!

Excellent job on this ISO, RossDarker! I actually used it today to set up a mini. It took me on a nostalgia trip to 2015, when I learnt that my neglected MDD FW800 could run my favourite OS.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: ELN on April 08, 2018, 06:10:01 AM
One last thing: if you are going to leave the CPU Plugin out by default, you should still use the latest ROM. Bring earmuffs though!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 06:52:12 AM
Ah yes that is quality. Thanks on that, removing the Multiprocessing folder with the new ROM will say you can't sleep and gives the options [Cancel] and [Shut Down] if you try to sleep.

You will be able to add the multiprocessing folder separately, which will be in the CD extras folder.

I'll get updating the ISO!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 09:16:21 AM
Ok here it is:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-80X7kS0noCDNiP61uA54uLCAM4d9lRQ/view?usp=sharing

Changes:
ROM is now ELN's latest ROM with MacTron's Happy Mac icon.
The Multiprocessing folder can be added to your extensions folder. Multiprocessing folder is located in the CD Extras folder in this CD.
Updated a few of the Read Me documents.

Burn the ISO through the Finder or Disk Utility or Toast on OS X, and you can burn in Windows too. You can boot the Mac mini off this CD once burned and use ASR to install OS 9.
Boots ONLY the Mac mini G4s. (10,1 and 10,2).
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 09:21:16 AM
MacTron, another update to the Mac mini CD:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-80X7kS0noCDNiP61uA54uLCAM4d9lRQ/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: IIO on April 08, 2018, 09:49:37 AM
great stuff.

could you start adding versionnumbers or date to the filenames mb? stuff starts to spread around servers.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on April 08, 2018, 10:05:32 AM
great stuff.

could you start adding versionnumbers or date to the filenames mb? stuff starts to spread around servers.

Right now it is Version 5 of the Mac mini CDs that use ASR. I guess you could say Version 0 was that old Drag and Drop install I originally made. Each time I remake the CD, the version changes by 1. I'll add the version to the file name.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: MacTron on April 08, 2018, 01:02:16 PM
MacTron, another update to the Mac mini CD:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-80X7kS0noCDNiP61uA54uLCAM4d9lRQ/view?usp=sharing

Updated!
Thanks
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: MacTron on April 08, 2018, 01:05:06 PM
BTW, any chance we could sticky this thread?
Donne  ;D
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on April 09, 2018, 12:29:13 PM
By the way, has anyone succeeded booting into OS 9 on the Mini, but over FireWire (or even USB) drives? I can install OS 9 files just like I did with the internal HDD I have, and it shows up among the options on OS 9's StartUp Disk and even upon booting with Alt/Option pressed as a boot option, but once it attempts to boot, I get the "diskette with question mark" problem, implying it couldn't find any OS to boot with from there. Some seconds later, it boots from the internal HDD.

Aside from this inability described above, it also causes a little side-effect: if booting into OS 9 afterwards (installed in my internal HDD), all the partitions are missing from my external FW HDD, meaning the drive goes entirely undetected, and even upon rebooting with Alt/Option pressed, those partitions are all still missing. The problem is resolved when I boot into my internal HDD's OS X partition, which immediately "sees" the external HDD once again, and its partitions.

For reference, when all of the external FW HDD's partitions are visible and accessible once again, I can boot OS X 10.4/5 Client/Server off them without any problem whatsoever.

In short:
1. How to boot OS 9 off FireWire drives on the mini?
2. Why does the external FW drive "disappear", and why OS X "finds them back" while OS 9 does not?

In case anyone can answer these... I believe external, bootable OS 9 besides optical medium would be very desirable.
I didn't try booting things from OF, although I'm not sure if that would make a difference for OS 9.

EDIT: And oh, also:
- All partitions were formatted over OS X's Disk Utility. The Drive Setup that came with the OS 9 mini CD couldn't support the FW drive at all;
- The partition I tried to get OS 9 to work with was formatted with HFS+ (without journaling, case-INsensitive. Meaning plain, old, default HFS+).
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 09, 2018, 12:42:48 PM
@Jubadub, I can see my FW HD fine from Mac OS 9, and it there a 2 partitions on APM, both formatted as JHFS+ with OS9Drivers. Are the partitions too big on your disk for OS 9 to see?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on April 09, 2018, 01:00:59 PM
@Jubadub, I can see my FW HD fine from Mac OS 9, and it there a 2 partitions on APM, both formatted as JHFS+ with OS9Drivers. Are the partitions too big on your disk for OS 9 to see?

I can see them too, provided the bug I described didn't occur (or got already fixed). But what I couldn't do was to boot OS 9 off them, nor use OS 9's Drive Setup on them. Did you manage to boot 9 from an external FireWire drive?

The partitions I have don't surpass 190GB in size. The whole drive is 931GB big. (Incidentally, I believe although OS 9 won't supposedly boot from partitions bigger than 200GB, it can still see and use partitions as big as 2TB, no?)

I forgot to mention, I also used APM (Apple Partition Map) when formatting, and I even checked the box in Tiger's Disk Utility where I state I intend to boot Mac OS 9 off the drive. Could it be the latter is, somehow and ironically, interfering with things? (I'd guess not, but I dunno.)
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 09, 2018, 01:36:59 PM
I boot OS 9 off the FW drive yes. The drive contains Tiger & 9.2.2 partition. I boot the Mac mini off the Tiger partition for use of OS X, and the 9.2.2 partition is what I use to make the ASR CDs. And the internal HD I use for just use for general 9.2.2. For some reason, it's just the internal drive I cannot dual boot.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 09, 2018, 01:52:07 PM
By the way, I too long often notice FW drives missing when holding option. Sometimes if you disconnect it, refresh with r key, reboot and plug it in or plug it back in before reboot it will show up. The diskette with ? means I think that it loads the ROM and stuff, so it knows about the System, but the OS 9 drivers are missing, or partition is too big to boot off. You say you have checked both these, so see if you can format it from an installed system on your internal with Drive Setup, and not Drive Setup whilst being booted off the CD.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on April 09, 2018, 02:17:33 PM
For some reason, it's just the internal drive I cannot dual boot.

Funny how our situation is reversed!

[...] see if you can format it from an installed system on your internal with Drive Setup, and not Drive Setup whilst being booted off the CD.

I believe I tried this, but I'll take another look. I'll also dig up various versions of Driver Setup to see if any of them works. If none does, are there good known replacements for Drive Setup in OS 9? I might pay a trip to the Garden.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 09, 2018, 02:31:35 PM
lacie silverling was widely used back in the day, mainly for making partitions on firewire disks.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on April 09, 2018, 03:02:31 PM
Found "LaCie Silverlining", I guess that's it. :) Funny how my drive is also LaCie. Thanks for the recommendation!
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 09, 2018, 03:41:00 PM
My FW drive is A LaCie d2 Quadra where the big blue light on the front is a button where you can assign stuff to run when you press the button somehow.

Anyone know how you'd get OS X on the mini to show the OS 9 partition under Startup Disk pref pane?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: DieHard on April 09, 2018, 04:14:59 PM
Ross,

Please provide notes or PM me on ROM version and things removed and added to the image, this will be the one I will post on the download boards
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 09, 2018, 05:36:00 PM
Incidentally, I believe although OS 9 won't supposedly boot from partitions bigger than 200GB, it can still see and use partitions as big as 2TB, no?

from firewire yes, from IDE no!

2*500 would be better.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 09, 2018, 05:37:51 PM
Found "LaCie Silverlining", I guess that's it. :) Funny how my drive is also LaCie. Thanks for the recommendation!

i think you need the latest v.4.6 something for 9.2.2, SL is very picky about OSes
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: IIO on April 09, 2018, 05:39:50 PM
Anyone know how you'd get OS X on the mini to show the OS 9 partition under Startup Disk pref pane?

eventually it is not ->blessed, but otoh it should be when you installed it via ASR...

p.s. ross, out of interest, can you select this OS9 folder as classic enviroment?
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: RossDarker on April 10, 2018, 02:19:07 AM
It's blessed and I can select it with classic. I can boot it through the option key at startup. I think it doesn't show up in X as a startup disk because the Mac mini doesn't boot a standard OS 9. Doesn't matter too much though.
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: darthnVader on April 10, 2018, 05:55:21 AM
It's blessed and I can select it with classic. I can boot it through the option key at startup. I think it doesn't show up in X as a startup disk because the Mac mini doesn't boot a standard OS 9. Doesn't matter too much though.

The start up disk control panel in OS X goes by the Model Identifier.

You have to change the Model in Open Firmware to one of the OS 9 supported Macs, then you will be able to see OS 9 system folder in OS X start up disk control panel.

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: Jubadub on April 10, 2018, 07:25:24 AM
The start up disk control panel in OS X goes by the Model Identifier.

You have to change the Model in Open Firmware to one of the OS 9 supported Macs, then you will be able to see OS 9 system folder in OS X start up disk control panel.

Are there any known negative side-effects to OS X by doing this?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on April 10, 2018, 03:21:26 PM
The Mac mini is also required to have a custom System Suitcase. It has ID 3 taken from the boot resource from an older version of ELN's roms copied into the boot resource of the suitcase. I don't know if it is still required (it definitely did originally) but it's still what the latest CD image uses.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2018, 11:56:30 AM
the negaitve effect would be that we can not include this change to OSX on the OS9 CD.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2018, 02:22:25 PM
tried to boot a stock 1.42 from the mini CD v5 - it hangs at the ethernet driver and shows a bomb.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on April 13, 2018, 02:28:46 PM
tried to boot a stock 1.42 from the mini CD v5 - it hangs at the ethernet driver and shows a bomb.

I have a 1.42 and I test every CD I make so your ethernet port must have something wrong, or maybe you could try reset PRAM. Maybe your CD was burned at too high of a speed, could be scratched also.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2018, 02:41:36 PM
i´ve indeed used a very cheap, minor quality, media (first time in my life), but the machine doesnt complain that the media can not be read when you attempt to copy it to HD.

maybe there is an issue with my 1920*1200 setting? i will see soon...

for now i am copying the OS9 folder to HD and use it as classic enviroment. (there is a juvenile 10.4.11 installed)

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2018, 02:45:12 PM
uh no, of course that doesnt work :) i go via firewire boot.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on April 13, 2018, 02:50:35 PM
You could try getting the contents of the disk image (ISO) to a USB stick:

hdid -nomount /Path\ to/MacminiV5.iso
(Take note of the number /dev/diskX, what ever X is)

diskutil list

diskutil unmountDisk /dev/diskY
or
diskutil umount /dev/diskY
 (Y being the disk of the USB)

sudo dd if=/dev/diskX of=/dev/diskY
(Use ctrl+t, to see how many bytes transferred)

Then boot the Mac mini from the USB in open firmware
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2018, 03:08:04 PM
ok i found out what was up.

the mac mini doesnt seems to like when you remove the usb keyboard during operation.

because that is what i did during the CD installation above.

i tried to remove the usb keyboard during OSX boot on the same machine now - and it also happens (well, it continues to boot but you dont get the keyboard get. i have never seen this before on a mac...)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2018, 03:55:14 PM
uh, last time i used an external DVD drive, this time the mini drive, pretty slow :)

proposals for the future:

 - remove registration, welcome video, and setup assistant

 - remove IE and add "our" classilla

 - add "our" torrent client

 - merge the applications folder from the CD into the applications (OS9) folder and include it in the ASR installation. (system profiler is for sure more of use than graphing calculator. btw some of these apps are present twice, in both folders. yes, i know that some of them go into the apple menu, but i think apple was wrong here :) )

 - already have usb overdrive, joliet access and eventually a VNC server installed, of course as opt-in, under (disabled)

 - maybe i am going too far... but what about quicktime pro?

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Jubadub on April 13, 2018, 05:09:23 PM
I think every extra that doesn't come with a stock Mac OS 9.2.2 should be in the CD Extras folder, and leave everything else stock in place, as it is right now. Even the relatively-useless stuff like IE 5. The user can then make the choices. I find this important so the OS 9 releases remain "clean", and draw a line between what is stock and what is not. :) I personally am fine eitherway, but generally-speaking, others may look at the release with skepticism the more different the installed OS is from what they would expect from a fresh, "true" OS 9 install. Well, just my 2 cents, of course.

I also totally agree with MacTorrent appearing in the CD Extras folder, what a great, nice piece of software that is. :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on April 13, 2018, 05:35:47 PM
I can add in the MacTorrent to CD Extras, which currently contains Classilla 9.3.3, USB Overdrive, Bugdom (Shareware) and Multiprocessing folder. I think I can fit about an extra 130MB before the image becomes full, which I set to 670MB or something like that. You can skip welcome video & registration with command+q. I'll always keep the System you restore just like a standard install from Apple, yep CD Extras folder is where I'll keep the optional stuff.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2018, 06:07:41 PM
you´re probably right
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: solderwire on April 14, 2018, 10:45:03 AM
Thanks for the amazing work ;)
Is it possible to port non-English version of Mac OS 9.2.2 to Mac mini G4? My language is not English so I would be appreciated if I can get OS 9 running on my mini G4.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on April 14, 2018, 11:00:33 AM
Thanks for the amazing work ;)
Is it possible to port non-English version of Mac OS 9.2.2 to Mac mini G4? My language is not English so I would be appreciated if I can get OS 9 running on my mini G4.

you might want to tell them what language it is that you are interested in
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: solderwire on April 14, 2018, 11:13:35 AM
Thanks for the amazing work ;)
Is it possible to port non-English version of Mac OS 9.2.2 to Mac mini G4? My language is not English so I would be appreciated if I can get OS 9 running on my mini G4.

you might want to tell them what language it is that you are interested in
Simplified Chinese. The only downloadable 9.2.2 in Simplified Chinese is a ISO labeled "Power Mac G4 install" with ROM 9.0.1. I got it working on my friend's 1GHz TiBook by replacing ROM and graphics drivers. He said I may need to modify the System Suitcase to get it running on Mac mini G4.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 14, 2018, 02:34:25 PM

1. do the install of the mini CD as described in the textfile

2. after you booted into OS9 from HD, exchange everything in the systemfolder except ROM, suitcase and graphics drivers with your chinese/french/german stuff
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on April 14, 2018, 02:55:33 PM
solderwire:
you may have to wait till someone has the time to accomplish the task
but im fairly certain that they will probably accomodate your need for a chinese install iso disk.
to make it possible for all chinese users to use this mac in this way!
theres many billions of people on the planet who speak this language so its definately not a waste of time logically speaking

considering this thread has 25,000 views people are interested
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on April 14, 2018, 03:53:33 PM
has the 1.5ghz mac mini g4 been overclocked by anyone yet?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 14, 2018, 10:43:04 PM
Hi solderwire,

Your problem is the reason that I was initially reluctant to build Mac OS ROM files with a resource fork. The System Enabler parts are localised.

But this can be fixed with a bit of ResEdit action. I expect that your Mac OS ROM is of a late enough version. Use ResEdit to delete all the resources *except the cfrg resource* from my latest Mac OS ROM file. Then paste in all the resources from your Simplified Chinese Mac OS ROM file. This ROM file should be all that you need to get a Simplified Chinese 9.2.2 booting on the mini, although I suggest that you also use darthnVader’s graphics drivers!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: solderwire on April 14, 2018, 11:16:01 PM
Hi solderwire,

Your problem is the reason that I was initially reluctant to build Mac OS ROM files with a resource fork. The System Enabler parts are localised.

But this can be fixed with a bit of ResEdit action. I expect that your Mac OS ROM is of a late enough version. Use ResEdit to delete all the resources *except the cfrg resource* from my latest Mac OS ROM file. Then paste in all the resources from your Simplified Chinese Mac OS ROM file. This ROM file should be all that you need to get a Simplified Chinese 9.2.2 booting on the mini, although I suggest that you also use darthnVader’s graphics drivers!
Thanks for your reply. Can I use the System suitcase that comes from the PM G4 Install CD? There are too many strings to translate in the English System Suitcase!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 15, 2018, 06:04:22 AM
Thanks for your reply. Can I use the System suitcase that comes from the PM G4 Install CD? There are too many strings to translate in the English System Suitcase!

You bet!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 15, 2018, 06:08:28 AM
Based on a superficial comparison of two MacsBug StdLogs, I suspect that disabling the "Application Switcher" extension fixes the frozen-mouse problem.

Could I please have some testers?

Also, whenever anyone next encounters the problem, would you please post an StdLog of the boot that exhibits the problem, followed by an StdLog from a subsequent problem-free boot?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on April 15, 2018, 09:17:45 AM
Would you still need resource ID 3 from Boot resource in a ROM to go into the suitcase.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 15, 2018, 05:10:32 PM
No. That nasty patched boot 3 resource hasn't been needed for weeks! Trash it.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on April 16, 2018, 09:45:55 AM
That's cool, I'll stop using that in future CD's.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 18, 2018, 11:08:54 PM
I'm using the latest ROM now with no new issues appearing.  I have something else to discuss, but it will have to wait for the afternoon.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 19, 2018, 11:22:59 AM
Quote
I have something else to discuss, but it will have to wait for the afternoon.

Oh sure, tease us and not tell us, OK, my mini will stay off in protest until you spill the beans
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on April 19, 2018, 11:24:53 AM
stop trying to make us non-mini owners jealous
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 19, 2018, 04:28:51 PM
stop trying to make us non-mini owners jealous

 I suppose it'd be cruel of me to mention I have a second one coming in the mail right now? ;) ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 19, 2018, 06:44:33 PM
Alright, so here's what I was planning to post about:

  The issue with the Mini's monitor timing at 1920x1080 was really starting to nag at my brain.  I wanted to determine once and for all if this was a very simple issue.  Booting into OS X on VGA produced exactly the same right-offset and oddly narrow image width as under OS 9 with the same LCD at 60Hz vertical refresh.  From past experience with other platforms I was very suspicious that this was merely related to the pre-determined horizontal scan rate being too high for the ATI analog driver hardware itself to behave correctly, similar to how some monitors act when a signal is mildly outside of their compatible frequency range.

  The reason I was leaning towards the ATI hardware is that the behavior is identical on both OS 9 and OS X as well as on a completely different LCD too.  The other LCD is a strange beast - it has a native 1366x768 resolution panel but has a built-in scaler that can actually accept 1920x1080 input and scale it to fit the native resolution.  Even in this case the image width and offset were exactly the same!  That placed the root of the problem directly in the ATI hardware.

  I installed SwitchResX so that I could at least test timing alterations under OS X to prove my hypothesis.  The available VGA timing in the resolution table of this ATI hardware at 1920x1080/60Hz was 67.5KHz horizontal scan rate.  I pulled an arbitrary reduction out of the air, 65KHz, and SwitchResX spit out the number 65.078 as the actual usable figure.  This also automatically reduced the vertical refresh rate from 60Hz to 58Hz - 58.209 to be exact.  (The pixel clock increases as a result of this from 159.84MHz to 167.64MHz.)  I saved this custom resolution and then rebooted to enable it.

  End result?  Perfectly aligned and sized, crystal clear 1920x1080 image on VGA!!!  The simple explanation for this not working automatically on its own has to be that such a setting is not programmed into the timing table in the ATI ROM on this 9200 and it has no overriding code in the driver.  This is such a dead-simple fix in OS X just by using SwitchResX, and it fully proves the hardware is capable of a workable timing mode for 1920x1080 on VGA.  Now how the hell do we make such an adjustment in OS 9?  If it's possible in OS X, it has to be possible through some method in OS 9 too.

  The even more curious thing is that OS X will perfectly set working scan rates for 1920x1080/60Hz on DVI, while OS 9 blanks out at the desktop with an unusable mode.  OS X correctly identifies the monitor's name via the DVI data lines, but with VGA it never does on either OS.  It is impossible to say if the monitor's model name is being detected in OS 9 on DVI since I never get an image at the desktop.  I am strongly leaning toward a large portion of our problem being improper handling of the monitor's sense codes, leading to unworkable default values being used instead.  I would suspect that the VGA scan frequency hardware limitation simply compounded the issue.  Do we attack one, the other, or both?  Fixing the sense code handling may actually correct both of the issues, but we may still have to find a way to allow custom frequencies anyway.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 19, 2018, 07:36:33 PM
those numbers make sense, but i still dont get why that specific resolution can not be correctly be displayed with the ATI, or to be exact, why there seems to be NO resolution working for this monitor "natively".

2k is a so common format that one should think it works with every monitor.

however, you know that switchres is available for OS9, too, do you? it is not 100% the same features, but almost.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 19, 2018, 07:57:54 PM
There have been a lot of things in the Apple world that should have just worked but didn't.  Whatever the nature of this glitch turns out to be, it must not have affected enough users to make Apple care about resolving it.  Certainly it's still odd that this would be a consistent issue through all the G4 Mini revisions.  You'd think it could have been fixed after the initial release in all subsequent revisions.  It is an established fact, however, that the ROM version used on this 9200 was never updated to fix various issues that were resolved on other 9200 platforms with official ATI updates.  It's entirely possible the 9200 ROM version in the Mini is partially crap.  Whether any of the offending behaviors were overridden with driver code I can't say for sure.

  I use SwitchRes on OS 9 routinely, but it will only let you select unlisted presets.  There is no comparable function for creating custom timings of any sort in the OS 9 version.  I've found that to be one of the most painfully lacking features.  It was otherwise nearly perfect.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 19, 2018, 10:25:45 PM
One additional observation for the night:

  I've made progress of sorts.  If I boot into OS X on VGA, which then stores the custom SwitchResX low-scanrate 1920x1080 resolution into PRAM or NVRAM (wherever it goes), then reboot into OS 9 with all the ATI extensions off, the special mode is retained all the way to the OS 9 desktop without any mode switching during reboot, startup or desktop load.  Perfect VGA 1920x1080!  If you don't 'pre-set' the VGA mode with OS X and just straight boot OS 9 without the extensions, VGA comes up with a locked 640x480 resolution only.  DVI, on the other hand, will work perfectly from initial detection to desktop at a locked 1920x1080!

  This brings us back around to ATI's drivers/extensions.  In some way they are upsetting the modes, so they are at least partially responsible for the invalid scan rate on VGA, and directly responsible for the black-screen-desktop invalid mode on DVI.  I can only assume they contain timing overrides and/or resolution tables that don't take into account the eccentricities of the Mini's specific 9200 variant.  I will put the extensions back in one-by-one to see which one is responsible for the resolution switching during startup.

  I will have to leave it to someone else to dig into the content of the extensions code to sort this out.  That part is way beyond my capabilities.  Hopefully what I've observed and learned here can at least point our 'team' in the right direction.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 20, 2018, 04:03:32 AM
One additional observation for the night:

  I've made progress of sorts.  If I boot into OS X on VGA, which then stores the custom SwitchResX low-scanrate 1920x1080 resolution into PRAM or NVRAM (wherever it goes), then reboot into OS 9 with all the ATI extensions off, the special mode is retained all the way to the OS 9 desktop without any mode switching during reboot, startup or desktop load.  Perfect VGA 1920x1080!  If you don't 'pre-set' the VGA mode with OS X and just straight boot OS 9 without the extensions, VGA comes up with a locked 640x480 resolution only.  DVI, on the other hand, will work perfectly from initial detection to desktop at a locked 1920x1080!

  This brings us back around to ATI's drivers/extensions.  In some way they are upsetting the modes, so they are at least partially responsible for the invalid scan rate on VGA, and directly responsible for the black-screen-desktop invalid mode on DVI.  I can only assume they contain timing overrides and/or resolution tables that don't take into account the eccentricities of the Mini's specific 9200 variant.  I will put the extensions back in one-by-one to see which one is responsible for the resolution switching during startup.

  I will have to leave it to someone else to dig into the content of the extensions code to sort this out.  That part is way beyond my capabilities.  Hopefully what I've observed and learned here can at least point our 'team' in the right direction.

Ok, you're having more of an issue than just the 135Mhz pixel clock limitation for non-coherent displays.

VGA is tricky, a true VGA display should have adjustments on it. It's normal to have to adjust the  horizontal and vertical centering on a VGA display. It's been a long time since I fooled around with this stuff, front porch timings, back porch timings, V refresh rate, H refresh rate.

Some displays don't have proper EDID, I've even gone so far as to edit them, and flash the EEPROM on the display that contains the EDID.

OS X has an EDID override, for displays that weren't or couldn't be flashed.

A lot of these display issues are real inside baseball, they could be fixed, but there is no telling how those fixes will break something else. The OS 9 'NDRV' could be patched to deal with your displays better, but what would that break for the rest of us.

 
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 20, 2018, 09:37:44 AM
Some displays don't have proper EDID, I've even gone so far as to edit them, and flash the EEPROM on the display that contains the EDID.

OS X has an EDID override, for displays that weren't or couldn't be flashed.

i also believe that the main cause is the monitor itself. the symptom reminds me on the use of invalid or too long VGA cables. if you have a cable which does not allow OSX to communicate with the monitor to get its specs, then set the monitor settings in OSX using switchres, reboot the computer but leave the monitor powered on, it is beeeing refound and still works properly at the artificially set resolution and frequency. only when you turn the monitor off all is gone again.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 20, 2018, 11:46:40 AM
This monitor has never had an issue with correct detection on some 30-plus systems its been attached to at one point or another.  The sync issue only appears with 1920x1080 resolution on the Mini.  If it detects correctly over DVI on OS X then it should do exactly the same thing in OS 9 because the the detection mechanism is the same.  I've used a number of alternate cables to no effect.  I've also shown it's not related to the pixel clock issue.  And I wasn't the only one having this problem.

  I'm willing to accept the monitor as a problem, but I've generated enough evidence to the contrary that I have a hard time believing that, especially considering a second LCD with a wider sync tolerance and scaling ability exhibited exactly the same behavior.  I would still find it useful for a number of other odd situations I've run into if at least some of the custom timing function of SwitchResX were available in SwitchRes.  There seems to be more at play here.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 20, 2018, 12:11:25 PM
This monitor has never had an issue with correct detection on some 30-plus systems its been attached to at one point or another.  The sync issue only appears with 1920x1080 resolution on the Mini.  If it detects correctly over DVI on OS X then it should do exactly the same thing in OS 9 because the the detection mechanism is the same.  I've used a number of alternate cables to no effect.  I've also shown it's not related to the pixel clock issue.  And I wasn't the only one having this problem.

  I'm willing to accept the monitor as a problem, but I've generated enough evidence to the contrary that I have a hard time believing that, especially considering a second LCD with a wider sync tolerance and scaling ability exhibited exactly the same behavior.  I would still find it useful for a number of other odd situations I've run into if at least some of the custom timing function of SwitchResX were available in SwitchRes.  There seems to be more at play here.

I had to take the 'NDRV' from 10.3.7 for the Mini, as the other 'NDRV's from 10.5.8 and 10.4.x weren't OS 9 compatible. Ideally we would want to use the 'NDRV' from 10.5.8 like I did for the 9550, but it just doesn't work correctly.

The one we are using isn't a 100% fix, but for all my displays it works correct until I hit the non-coherent pixel clock limit.

The thing is, I bought my Mini for $20, it's a nice little toy, and it didn't take me long to hack out the OS 9 drivers for the R9200, but I'm just not looking to invest a bunch of time in decoding the 'NDRV' to work better with some displays.

I only put the time into the Mini I did in order to figure how the OS 9 drivers linked and loaded for ATI cards, because one day I would like to do register level emulation of 3D accelerated graphics for Qemu-System-PPC.

20 years from now, most of this hardware will be gone, or non-working, qemu will endure and allow people to use only Mac PPC applications.

Doesn't mean someone else won't take up the fight with the 'NDRV' issues, I just got it working as well as it can with the 4 displays I keep around, and I don't really see a need to invest more time into a $20 computer. 
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 20, 2018, 04:14:18 PM
I would still find it useful for a number of other odd situations I've run into if at least some of the custom timing function of SwitchResX were available in SwitchRes.

sorry if had something different in remembrance. if you would write an executable which would imitate what switchres is doing in OSX when you select a custom seetting, for example by just calling one arbitrary setting, would that be enough to find out at what point the issue lies?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on April 20, 2018, 08:34:24 PM
10.3.7 works out to December 15, 2004
so thats totally bang on... it was the end of 2004 when the support for mac os 9 really started to be removed
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 20, 2018, 09:15:52 PM
  I very much appreciate your work, Darth, as it certainly made for a much better experience for me on my Mini.  I'm not asking You[/] personally to put any further time and effort into it, as others here can probably refine the code later.  (My Mini, and a second one currently in transit to me cost about $100 each, the first one because I thought I was getting a 1.5GHz model but the seller lied, and the second one so I actually end up with a 1.5GHz model - As such I intend to put them to serious work in the studio here running software synths and the like.)  Keep in mind that the unmodified 'stock' ATI drivers caused the same problem anyway.

  As it stands, my workaround is to boot the Mini to OS 9 with the ATI extensions off first so the machine detects the monitor on DVI and stores the working mode, then reboot with the extensions back on to gain back the acceleration.  This sequence preserves the properly timed 1920x1080/60Hz mode from the first boot indefinitely, presumably, unless I switch resolutions or disconnect/reconnect the monitor with the system up.  The monitor, on DVI, is detected correctly by name too in SwitchRes and the Monitors control panel - "W2243" (an LG model).  The only reason I would have for booting once to OS X would be to make VGA work on the following re-boot - DVI works without this trick.

  I presume the 'mechanics' of creating custom timings for OS 9 is complicated given that it was never a feature of any OS 9 or earlier utility that I'm aware of.  It would be great if we could do it, essentially back-porting the function from SwitchResX to SwitchRes, but I don't have any idea of the feasibility.  Maybe some of the coders here know enough to comment.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 21, 2018, 02:27:07 AM
Alright, so here's what I was planning to post about

First-rate detective work as usual, MacOS Plus. Perhaps Daniel could cook up a utility that uses StartLib calls from within 9 to at least set display timings in NVRAM? This would not be very elegant, but I expect that it would find use with a few other Macs.

The thing is, I bought my Mini for $20, it's a nice little toy, and it didn't take me long to hack out the OS 9 drivers for the R9200, but I'm just not looking to invest a bunch of time in decoding the 'NDRV' to work better with some displays.

I only put the time into the Mini I did in order to figure how the OS 9 drivers linked and loaded for ATI cards, because one day I would like to do register level emulation of 3D accelerated graphics for Qemu-System-PPC.

20 years from now, most of this hardware will be gone, or non-working, qemu will endure and allow people to use only Mac PPC applications.

Doesn't mean someone else won't take up the fight with the 'NDRV' issues, I just got it working as well as it can with the 4 displays I keep around, and I don't really see a need to invest more time into a $20 computer. 

Good work so far, darthnVader! Would you consider putting together a "handover" repo that documents your patches and provides the required binaries? For posterity, I have been trying to leave as much of my Mac work online as possible (https://github.com/elliotnunn/cdg5 (https://github.com/elliotnunn/cdg5)). And somebody (possibly me) might be able to fix this resolution issue, even if it requires some sneaky special-casing. I appreciate any chance to show off my PEF patching stack.

If you do get working on 3D acceleration in QEMU, and you need to instrument some binaries on the Mac OS side, let me know!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 21, 2018, 05:11:45 AM
  I very much appreciate your work, Darth, as it certainly made for a much better experience for me on my Mini.  I'm not asking You[/] personally to put any further time and effort into it, as others here can probably refine the code later.  (My Mini, and a second one currently in transit to me cost about $100 each, the first one because I thought I was getting a 1.5GHz model but the seller lied, and the second one so I actually end up with a 1.5GHz model - As such I intend to put them to serious work in the studio here running software synths and the like.)  Keep in mind that the unmodified 'stock' ATI drivers caused the same problem anyway.

  As it stands, my workaround is to boot the Mini to OS 9 with the ATI extensions off first so the machine detects the monitor on DVI and stores the working mode, then reboot with the extensions back on to gain back the acceleration.  This sequence preserves the properly timed 1920x1080/60Hz mode from the first boot indefinitely, presumably, unless I switch resolutions or disconnect/reconnect the monitor with the system up.  The monitor, on DVI, is detected correctly by name too in SwitchRes and the Monitors control panel - "W2243" (an LG model).  The only reason I would have for booting once to OS X would be to make VGA work on the following re-boot - DVI works without this trick.

  I presume the 'mechanics' of creating custom timings for OS 9 is complicated given that it was never a feature of any OS 9 or earlier utility that I'm aware of.  It would be great if we could do it, essentially back-porting the function from SwitchResX to SwitchRes, but I don't have any idea of the feasibility.  Maybe some of the coders here know enough to comment.

One thing I didn't think of would be to try the 'NDRV's from the other 3 variations of the R9200, it's a long shot but maybe the one for the retail card would work.

I'll gave it a shot sometime this weekend and see if any of them work with my setup.

One odd outstanding issue for me is at some point one of ELN's ROMs made the R9200 show the NTSC modes as well as the modes for my display. I've seen some others having this issue too, I'm not sure if it is related to the display that is connected or it's a Rev. of the Mini itself?

The Mini did support NTSC with an adapter Apple sold. I assume the adapter had a custom EDID logic like the one for the G5 for nVidia cards, maybe the same adapter.

I had the adapter for the G5, it connected to the DVI port of an OEM card, and had S-Video and Composite. With a flashed GF 6600 GT it would enable the mini din breakout box if plugged to one of the DVI ports. The 6600 breakout box had S-Video, Composite, and Component. The Component ports supported HDTV up to 1920x1080, however I was never able to get it to work correct, I'd either get Black and White or a blue/red tent with no green, or something like that.

I conferred with the author of NVTV for Linux, and figured the registers and found the bit that needed to be set for the green channel, however   setting it would result in the TV losing sync.

I looked up the registers in Windows connected to the same card and TV, but it only told me what I already knew, the bit for the green channel was not being set on the Mac.

I never did figure the issue.

With the GF 6200 Atri Itra did a little special logic in the FCode, and it could enable the TV encoder without the need for the Apple adapter.   
 
Anyway, I'll see if I can cook up any working 'NDRV's from the other R9200's and report back.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Daniel on April 21, 2018, 10:11:55 AM
MacOS Plus, can you run the following Open Firmware script on your Mac mini and show me the output? I want to see how the resolution info is stored in nvram.
Code: [Select]
" nvram" open-dev constant nvdev
" size" nvdev $call-method constant nvsize
nvsize alloc-mem constant nvbuf
0 " seek" nvdev $call-method
nvbuf nvsize " read" nvdev $call-method
.s clear
nvbuf nvsize dump
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 21, 2018, 08:12:02 PM
Here's the output:

Code: [Select]
ffbbc000: 5a 82 00 02 6e 76 72 61 6d 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |Z...nvram.......|
ffbbc010: c1 d3 89 f1 00 00 02 cd 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc020: 5f 45 00 3e 73 79 73 74 65 6d 00 00 00 00 00 00 |_E.>system......|
ffbbc030: 00 02 00 00 63 61 73 68 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |....cash........|
ffbbc040: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc050: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc060: 00 00 00 00 be 23 c4 82 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.....#..........|
ffbbc070: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc080: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc090: 52 48 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |RHU.............|
ffbbc0a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc100: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc110: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc120: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc130: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc140: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc150: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 59 4d 35 30 35 46 44 50 |........YM505FDP|
ffbbc160: 52 48 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |RHU.............|
ffbbc170: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc180: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc190: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc200: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc210: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc220: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc230: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc240: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc250: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc260: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc270: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc280: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc290: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc300: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc310: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc320: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc330: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc340: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc350: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc360: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc370: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc380: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc390: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc400: 70 bd 00 c1 63 6f 6d 6d 6f 6e 00 00 00 00 00 00 |p...common......|
ffbbc410: 6c 69 74 74 6c 65 2d 65 6e 64 69 61 6e 3f 3d 66 |little-endian?=f|
ffbbc420: 61 6c 73 65 00 72 65 61 6c 2d 6d 6f 64 65 3f 3d |alse.real-mode?=|
ffbbc430: 66 61 6c 73 65 00 61 75 74 6f 2d 62 6f 6f 74 3f |false.auto-boot?|
ffbbc440: 3d 74 72 75 65 00 64 69 61 67 2d 73 77 69 74 63 |=true.diag-switc|
ffbbc450: 68 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 66 63 6f 64 65 2d 64 |h?=false.fcode-d|
ffbbc460: 65 62 75 67 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 6f 65 6d 2d |ebug?=false.oem-|
ffbbc470: 62 61 6e 6e 65 72 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 6f 65 |banner?=false.oe|
ffbbc480: 6d 2d 6c 6f 67 6f 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 75 73 |m-logo?=false.us|
ffbbc490: 65 2d 6e 76 72 61 6d 72 63 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 |e-nvramrc?=false|
ffbbc4a0: 00 75 73 65 2d 67 65 6e 65 72 69 63 3f 3d 66 61 |.use-generic?=fa|
ffbbc4b0: 6c 73 65 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 6d 61 63 2d |lse.default-mac-|
ffbbc4c0: 61 64 64 72 65 73 73 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 73 |address?=false.s|
ffbbc4d0: 63 72 6f 6c 6c 2d 6c 6f 63 6b 3d 74 72 75 65 00 |croll-lock=true.|
ffbbc4e0: 73 6b 69 70 2d 6e 65 74 62 6f 6f 74 3f 3d 66 61 |skip-netboot?=fa|
ffbbc4f0: 6c 73 65 00 72 65 61 6c 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 2d 31 |lse.real-base=-1|
ffbbc500: 00 72 65 61 6c 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d 2d 31 00 6c 6f |.real-size=-1.lo|
ffbbc510: 61 64 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 30 78 38 30 30 30 30 30 |ad-base=0x800000|
ffbbc520: 00 76 69 72 74 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 2d 31 00 76 69 |.virt-base=-1.vi|
ffbbc530: 72 74 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d 2d 31 00 6c 6f 67 67 65 |rt-size=-1.logge|
ffbbc540: 72 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 2d 31 00 6c 6f 67 67 65 72 |r-base=-1.logger|
ffbbc550: 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d 2d 31 00 70 63 69 2d 70 72 6f |-size=-1.pci-pro|
ffbbc560: 62 65 2d 6d 61 73 6b 3d 2d 31 00 73 63 72 65 65 |be-mask=-1.scree|
ffbbc570: 6e 2d 23 63 6f 6c 75 6d 6e 73 3d 31 30 30 00 73 |n-#columns=100.s|
ffbbc580: 63 72 65 65 6e 2d 23 72 6f 77 73 3d 34 30 00 73 |creen-#rows=40.s|
ffbbc590: 65 6c 66 74 65 73 74 2d 23 6d 65 67 73 3d 30 00 |elftest-#megs=0.|
ffbbc5a0: 62 6f 6f 74 2d 76 6f 6c 75 6d 65 3d 33 00 67 6d |boot-volume=3.gm|
ffbbc5b0: 74 2d 6f 66 66 73 65 74 3d 30 00 62 6f 6f 74 2d |t-offset=0.boot-|
ffbbc5c0: 64 65 76 69 63 65 3d 68 64 3a 2c 5c 5c 3a 74 62 |device=hd:,\\:tb|
ffbbc5d0: 78 69 00 62 6f 6f 74 2d 66 69 6c 65 3d 00 62 6f |xi.boot-file=.bo|
ffbbc5e0: 6f 74 2d 73 63 72 65 65 6e 3d 73 63 72 65 65 6e |ot-screen=screen|
ffbbc5f0: 00 63 6f 6e 73 6f 6c 65 2d 73 63 72 65 65 6e 3d |.console-screen=|
ffbbc600: 73 63 72 65 65 6e 00 64 69 61 67 2d 64 65 76 69 |screen.diag-devi|
ffbbc610: 63 65 3d 65 6e 65 74 00 64 69 61 67 2d 66 69 6c |ce=enet.diag-fil|
ffbbc620: 65 3d 2c 64 69 61 67 73 00 69 6e 70 75 74 2d 64 |e=,diags.input-d|
ffbbc630: 65 76 69 63 65 3d 6b 65 79 62 6f 61 72 64 00 6f |evice=keyboard.o|
ffbbc640: 75 74 70 75 74 2d 64 65 76 69 63 65 3d 73 63 72 |utput-device=scr|
ffbbc650: 65 65 6e 00 69 6e 70 75 74 2d 64 65 76 69 63 65 |een.input-device|
ffbbc660: 2d 31 3d 2f 69 70 63 00 6f 75 74 70 75 74 2d 64 |-1=/ipc.output-d|
ffbbc670: 65 76 69 63 65 2d 31 3d 2f 69 70 63 00 6d 6f 75 |evice-1=/ipc.mou|
ffbbc680: 73 65 2d 64 65 76 69 63 65 3d 6d 6f 75 73 65 00 |se-device=mouse.|
ffbbc690: 6f 65 6d 2d 62 61 6e 6e 65 72 3d 00 6f 65 6d 2d |oem-banner=.oem-|
ffbbc6a0: 6c 6f 67 6f 3d 00 6e 76 72 61 6d 72 63 3d 00 62 |logo=.nvramrc=.b|
ffbbc6b0: 6f 6f 74 2d 63 6f 6d 6d 61 6e 64 3d 6d 61 63 2d |oot-command=mac-|
ffbbc6c0: 62 6f 6f 74 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 63 6c 69 |boot.default-cli|
ffbbc6d0: 65 6e 74 2d 69 70 3d 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d |ent-ip=.default-|
ffbbc6e0: 73 65 72 76 65 72 2d 69 70 3d 00 64 65 66 61 75 |server-ip=.defau|
ffbbc6f0: 6c 74 2d 67 61 74 65 77 61 79 2d 69 70 3d 00 64 |lt-gateway-ip=.d|
ffbbc700: 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 73 75 62 6e 65 74 2d 6d 61 |efault-subnet-ma|
ffbbc710: 73 6b 3d 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 72 6f 75 74 |sk=.default-rout|
ffbbc720: 65 72 2d 69 70 3d 00 62 6f 6f 74 2d 73 63 72 69 |er-ip=.boot-scri|
ffbbc730: 70 74 3d 00 61 61 70 6c 2c 70 63 69 3d 2f 40 66 |pt=.aapl,pci=/@f|
ffbbc740: 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 2f 40 31 30 ff 01 52 32 41 |0000000/@10..R2A|
ffbbc750: 44 ff 01 5f fb 82 ff 81 01 90 ff 81 81 ff 81 01 |D.._............|
ffbbc760: 62 ff 81 08 36 1a 07 80 08 20 ff 81 01 30 ff 81 |b...6.... ...0..|
ffbbc770: 01 20 04 38 04 57 ff 81 01 03 ff 81 01 05 04 38 |. .8.W.........8|
ffbbc780: 07 80 ff 81 01 01 ff 81 18 ff 01 00 62 6f 6f 74 |............boot|
ffbbc790: 2d 61 72 67 73 3d 00 61 61 70 6c 2c 74 64 6d 2d |-args=.aapl,tdm-|
ffbbc7a0: 75 6e 69 74 73 3d 00 72 61 6d 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d |units=.ram-size=|
ffbbc7b0: 30 78 34 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 00 70 6c 61 74 66 |0x40000000.platf|
ffbbc7c0: 6f 72 6d 2d 75 75 69 64 3d ff 06 10 ff 01 80 ff |orm-uuid=.......|
ffbbc7d0: 02 11 24 6f 1e 7a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |..$o.z..........|
ffbbc7e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc7f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc800: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc810: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc820: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc830: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc840: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc850: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc860: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc870: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc880: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc890: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc900: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc910: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc920: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc930: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc940: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc950: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc960: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc970: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc980: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc990: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcaa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcab0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcac0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcad0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcae0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcaf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcba0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcca0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcce0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcda0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcde0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcea0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbceb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcec0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbced0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcee0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcef0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcff0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd000: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd010: a0 1e 00 52 41 50 4c 2c 4d 61 63 4f 53 37 35 00 |...RAPL,MacOS75.|
ffbbd020: 00 00 4f 48 00 00 00 00 1b 88 20 cc 4e 75 4d 63 |..OH...... .NuMc|
ffbbd030: a8 00 00 00 cc 0a cc 0a 00 00 00 00 00 02 63 00 |..............c.|
ffbbd040: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd050: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd060: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd070: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd080: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd090: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 66 66 00 00 00 00 |..........ff....|
ffbbd0a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 25 00 00 00 00 00 |..........%.....|
ffbbd0b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd0c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd0d0: 00 70 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.p..............|
ffbbd0e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd0f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd100: 00 01 00 0a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd110: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd120: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd130: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd140: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd150: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd160: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd170: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd180: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd190: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd200: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd210: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd220: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd230: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd240: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd250: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd260: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd270: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd280: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd290: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd300: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd310: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd320: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd330: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd340: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd350: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd360: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd370: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd380: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd390: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd400: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd410: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd420: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd430: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd440: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd450: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd460: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd470: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd480: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd490: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd500: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd510: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd520: de ad be ef de ad be ef de ad be ef de ad be ef |................|
ffbbd530: a1 15 00 81 41 50 4c 2c 4f 53 58 50 61 6e 69 63 |....APL,OSXPanic|
ffbbd540: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd550: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd560: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd570: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd580: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd590: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd600: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd610: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd620: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd630: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd640: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd650: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd660: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd670: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd680: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd690: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd700: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd710: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd720: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd730: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd740: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd750: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd760: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd770: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd780: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd790: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd800: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd810: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd820: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd830: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd840: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd850: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd860: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd870: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd880: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd890: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd900: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd910: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd920: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd930: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd940: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd950: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd960: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd970: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd980: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd990: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdaa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdab0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdac0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdad0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdae0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdaf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdba0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdca0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdce0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd40: 7f 45 00 2c 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 |.E.,wwwwwwwwwwww|
ffbbdd50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdda0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdde0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdea0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdeb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdec0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbded0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdee0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdef0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdff0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|

  From what I'm seeing there, it doesn't appear to be storing the parameters we're looking for.  There's what appears to be entries for text mode size, possibly related to default telnet behavior?  Is it stored in the PRAM then?  One thing I've always wanted to be able to do, you'll recall I mentioned about hoping for some kind of friendly 'pre-boot' PRAM/NVRAM editor, is to force a particular resolution to be saved for the next boot without having to be purely at the mercy of the initial auto-detection.  Even Open Firmware displays at the last known good resolution that was stored, which can be really annoying if you want to view a large log and it happens to be displaying at 640x480!

  I also got the weird NTSC-related resolutions somewhere along the way with one of the ROMs.  SwitchRes automatically stores a new monitor profile every time it thinks a different monitor has been connected, so I can view that list like a historical record and see what kind of odd things happened even when it would boot to a blank screen at the desktop.  This is how I was able to determine that DVI was switching to a completely crap mode at the desktop - SwitchRes recorded an entry for 32x32 black and white mode, which is certainly a far cry from any typical 'slightly off' 1920x1080 timing!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 21, 2018, 08:51:45 PM
A couple of additional observations:

1. If the desktop ends up with the bad resolution switch occurring, at that point it can be fixed by temporarily disabling the Monitors control panel and then deleting the Monitors Prefs file and rebooting.  Once the problem is triggered the first time by the combination of everything which causes it, the Monitors control panel is what keeps triggering the bad switch at the desktop from thereafter until I intervene.

2. I ran CineBench's "OpenGL HW-L" benchmark test.  Two things occurred - first, and almost immediately, the known 'rainbow pixel snow' issue appeared, which is supposed to be a problem with the ATI ROM setting too aggressive a VRAM clock.  This is hard-coded into the physical ROM, and I don't know if there is a workaround without some means of editing and re-flashing the ROM.  Secondly, very shortly after the 'pixel snow' began, the screen blanked out and got itself locked into the bad desktop resolution after reboot.  What I've found is if I get good display at the desktop, and the system reports 1920x1080, if you then actually pick the 1920x1080 resolution from the list in SwitchRes or the Monitors control panel, it immediately ends up in the junk mode.  I gather that this situation would occur if any software, such as a game, forces a mode switch and then tries to set it back again upon exit.  I'm not really interested in games fortunately, but I wouldn't want to leave out the possibility entirely.

  In addition to a desire to force a certain video mode at initial boot, it would be nice if the Monitors Prefs file could be overwritten automatically too so it never attempts to switch modes at the desktop once a good boot resolution is established.  SwitchRes can force a mode at the desktop, but as it stands cannot force a workable 1920x1080 mode on my current hardware config.  It has been a dream for as long as I've been toying with Macs that a desired resolution could be forced every boot and not upset by a PRAM/NVRAM/PMU reset.  Even under ideal circumstances it has been incredibly frustrating when you get a system doing exactly what you want it to do and yet it gets fouled up at random by the various resets, especially when it involves multiple monitors.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 21, 2018, 09:28:44 PM
  One other thing I've been wondering about, with all these Mac OS ROM file versions flying around, can we implement a version number scheme to clearly show which edition of the modified file we are using?  The version potentially shows up in the "About This Computer" window, System Profiler, Finder windows, and the file info dialog box.  Even if it were simply a comment in the text field in the file info dialog box that would be great, and that field could include a simple highlight list of the specific mods applied.  I'm thinking we should keep the original file version number it's sourced from but add something specific to say it is for the Mini, and preferably have an alpha/beta sequence number tacked on.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 21, 2018, 09:50:09 PM
Quote
The thing is, I bought my Mini for $20, it's a nice little toy, and it didn't take me long to hack out the OS 9 drivers for the R9200, but I'm just not looking to invest a bunch of time in decoding the 'NDRV' to work better with some displays.

I just wanted to add a special thanks for your invaluable input in the Video arena.  I look at the mini in a totally different way these days;  your efforts and the efforts of so many have made this an amazing little machine when running Mac OS 9; I literally used to hate the G4 mini, laughing at it, giving them away to customers for 5 year olds to learn reading and math. I remember, at one point, having a milk crate full of them from a buyout after selling off the Power supplies and thinking how ugly they were.  Now I think they look so cool,simple, perfect.  I have developed a disdain for loud G4 towers and this is just what the doctor ordered. I plan on hooking up a FW audio interface next weekend and finally doing some real world tests on then mini in OS 9 within a DAW and the video acceleration is a must. So thank you again, don't ever feel obligated, many will benifit from what you have already done.

Quote
I only put the time into the Mini I did in order to figure how the OS 9 drivers linked and loaded for ATI cards, because one day I would like to do register level emulation of 3D accelerated graphics for Qemu-System-PPC.
Unfortunately, I don't emulation will ever work for a DAW, too much need for real disk I/O, direct port access, audio engines HATE emulation and check a whole bunch and fail to load :(  so again, we become the benifactors of this great side-effect of OS 9 natively booting on a mini.

Quote
20 years from now, most of this hardware will be gone, or non-working, qemu will endure and allow people to use only Mac PPC applications.
Yeah, that's what keep saying, but I keep seeing 25 year old equipment come in my store here in Southern CA that looks new and passes all the original diagnostics; I think G4 hardware will be around another 20 years or more.

Quote
Doesn't mean someone else won't take up the fight with the 'NDRV' issues, I just got it working as well as it can with the 4 displays I keep around, and I don't really see a need to invest more time into a $20 computer.

Yes, others may build upon these success stories, and I thank ALL who have helped get us this far
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 22, 2018, 07:09:42 AM
  One other thing I've been wondering about, with all these Mac OS ROM file versions flying around, can we implement a version number scheme to clearly show which edition of the modified file we are using?  The version potentially shows up in the "About This Computer" window, System Profiler, Finder windows, and the file info dialog box.  Even if it were simply a comment in the text field in the file info dialog box that would be great, and that field could include a simple highlight list of the specific mods applied.  I'm thinking we should keep the original file version number it's sourced from but add something specific to say it is for the Mini, and preferably have an alpha/beta sequence number tacked on.

I did something like this with a previous build system. Honestly, it’s a huge pain, and it doesn’t give you any more information about the build than you would get from a link to a forum post. It would be more useful to post a source diff alongside each ROM.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on April 22, 2018, 10:50:13 AM
20 years from now i bet my sawtooth will still be running! lol
my windows pc running windows 10 right now, i just realized last night, its running off a power supply
from a g4 ! 2018 and the psu is from 1999, lol 20 year old PSU keeps on going and going and going
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 22, 2018, 12:25:11 PM
I recently fired up my 8MHz Turbo XT PC from 1985 - ran like a charm!  20MB hard drive and original NEC Multisync 9-pin monitor (that monitor was awesome - supported CGA but also 640x480 VGA with alternate15-to-9 pin cable.)  I played one of my all time favorite games on it - Digger.  Still works like I remember!

  Alright, we're drifting off topic a bit.  But it's always fun to get nostalgic.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 23, 2018, 03:38:36 AM
I recently fired up my 8MHz Turbo XT PC from 1985 - ran like a charm!  20MB hard drive and original NEC Multisync 9-pin monitor (that monitor was awesome - supported CGA but also 640x480 VGA with alternate15-to-9 pin cable.)  I played one of my all time favorite games on it - Digger.  Still works like I remember!

  Alright, we're drifting off topic a bit.  But it's always fun to get nostalgic.

As if OS 9 weren't nostalgic :P

Anyway, I tested the Bugsy( R9200 PCI Retail ) and Merlin( R9200 eMac ) 'NDRV's. No luck, they are not compatible with the Mini.

I also went back and tested the fallowing 'NDRV's for the RockHopper2( Mini ). Just to make sure I did it correct the first time( 10.3.8, 10.3.9, 10.4, 10.4.11, 10.5.1, 10.5.8 ). Same issue, any change to the screen res or bit depth will result in a grey screen with only the mouse pointer active.

We just got lucky that 10.3.7 had a working 'NDRV' for OS 9, as the change to the 'NDRV' that causes the "Grey Screen" issue came with 10.3.8 and seems to persist all the way to 10.5.8.

I know for people having display issues, it doesn't feel like we got lucky, but somewhat working, is better than this "Grey Screen" issue.

Whenever ELN may have time, we could try and look at the 'NDVR's from 10.3.7 and 10.3.8 to see if we can't find the changes made that cause the "Grey Screen" issue. I think it would be worthwhile, as we maybe able to get the 'NDRV' from 10.5.8 working if we can figure the changes.

ATI addressed the issues with displays from 2005-2009 with the Mini by updating the 'NDRV', that was the primary way, so we maybe able to resolve some issues this way.

I just don't understand 'NDRV's well enough to know how to decode them or edit them, but it would be something worthwhile to learn if ELN feels like teaching. I've gone over the documentation in the Writing PCI Drivers for the Mac OS, but it doesn't offer anything useful to me.

With ATI graphics 'NDRV's they are very specific to the hardware, and even the layout of the ports on the card,  as the Merlin( eMac ) and the RockHopper2( Mini ) are the same Device ID ( 5962 ), but each needs it's own 'NDRV'.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 23, 2018, 08:19:50 AM
Apple's documentation of the Copland PCI driver architecture is so vague that it's nearly useless.

darthnVader, I'd really like to have your ndrv work and documentation in one place before I take a dive into it. Got a repo somewhere?



So, patchpef! This script makes it easy to reproducibly patch PEF files with a quick turnaround time.

First, get it here. You will need to compile vasm, a portable multi-architecture assembler. https://github.com/elliotnunn/patchpef (https://github.com/elliotnunn/patchpef)

The simplest patchpef command is this. It will just copy the PEF unchanged (unless it's really weird, like the MixedMode library).
Code: [Select]
patchpef.py INPUT-FILE OUTPUT-FILE
You should know that patchpef includes my macresources library, which lets it do this:
Code: [Select]
patchpef.py INPUT-RSRC-FILE//ndrv/299 OUTPUT-FILE
From here, you add arguments in pairs.

It might not look like a whole lot, but patchpef has enabled me to solve some problems, like the CPU Plugin crash, *very* quickly. I use it in conjunction with a disassembly tool like MacNosy, IDA or Hopper. I will leave you with a mundane, unthreatening line pulled at random from my shell history.

Code: [Select]
patchpef.py MixedMode ../mac-rom/Misc/GoNativeResources//ncod/1/MixedMode 0x10 :r3
Happy hacking!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 23, 2018, 10:09:15 AM
Apple's documentation of the Copland PCI driver architecture is so vague that it's nearly useless.

darthnVader, I'd really like to have your ndrv work and documentation in one place before I take a dive into it. Got a repo somewhere?



So, patchpef! This script makes it easy to reproducibly patch PEF files with a quick turnaround time.

First, get it here. You will need to compile vasm, a portable multi-architecture assembler. https://github.com/elliotnunn/patchpef (https://github.com/elliotnunn/patchpef)

The simplest patchpef command is this. It will just copy the PEF unchanged (unless it's really weird, like the MixedMode library).
Code: [Select]
patchpef.py INPUT-FILE OUTPUT-FILE
You should know that patchpef includes my macresources library, which lets it do this:
Code: [Select]
patchpef.py INPUT-RSRC-FILE//ndrv/299 OUTPUT-FILE
From here, you add arguments in pairs.
  • The first argument in a pair is an offset within the code section, like "0x124". If the binary includes debug symbols (relatively rare), you can use them: "MyFunction+0x10". Wildcards also work: "MPCreate*+0x4". To insert the same code just before the return instruction of every function, use "*-0x4".

  • The second argument specifies some assembly code. You need to remember to enclose this in shell quotes. Semicolons are replaced with newlines, and the assembler expects all directives to be preceded by whitespace. Specifying " li r3, 0; li r4, 1" would insert those instructions into the position you specified with the in argument, massaging the original code to give all of the original instructions a chance to execute (this process is logged extensively, albeit cryptically). There are several assembler macros specified within the script that help you to save registers and spam the NanoKernel log.

    Alternatively, you can use one of my all-in-one arguments. Passing ":r3" as the second argument simply dumps r3 to the log, and "::r3" dumps several bytes of hex starting at r3 (useful when you can't figure out a function pointer). Lastly, ":hello world" will print an arbitrary string to the log.

    I have left a few features unmentioned here. If you can't do something that you want to, let me know!

It might not look like a whole lot, but patchpef has enabled me to solve some problems, like the CPU Plugin crash, *very* quickly. I use it in conjunction with a disassembly tool like MacNosy, IDA or Hopper. I will leave you with a mundane, unthreatening line pulled at random from my shell history.

Code: [Select]
patchpef.py MixedMode ../mac-rom/Misc/GoNativeResources//ncod/1/MixedMode 0x10 :r3
Happy hacking!

It's all just hacks done with Hexedit and Resedit.

Open /System/Library/Extensions/AppleNDRV/ATIRuntimeDriver.bundle/Contents/MacOS/ATIRuntimeDriver in Hexedit.

Search for the " compatible" property of the ATI cards display node in ASCII. I.E. Command+F RockHopper2. Then search for the next "Joy", as in Joy!peffpwpc. Note the offset in Hexedit, on the left.

This will be the beginning  of the next 'NDRV', so now find the previous Joy!, this will be the beginning of the 'NDRV' that is for RockHopper2. Copy everything from this Joy! to the next Joy!, the one we noted the offset of. I.E. insert the curser before the first Joy! that begins the 'NDRV' and drag it to the offset at the end so that the hex is selected in Hexedit. Do not include the second Joy!, we don't need it, that's the next 'NDRV', we only need one, the one at the beginning.

While the hex we want to copy is highlighted hit Command+C, then Command+N for a new file, then Command+V to paste the 'NDRV' we copied into the new file. Then Save As...I normally name the file like this:RockHopper2(10.x.x).ndrv. So if I'm looking at the one from 10.4.11 for the Mini, it would be RockHopper2(10.4.11).ndrv.

Now we need Resedit with Forker, as the 'NDRV' lives in the Data Fork and we need to edit a few things in the resource fork. You can replace the Data Fork under OS 9 with Hexedit, but Hexedit for OS X will corrupt our driver, so it's best to just use Resedit with Forker.

I assume we could use Classic Mode here, but I just boot OS 9.

Open the file we created in Hexedit, RockHopper2(10.x.x).ndrv, in Resedit, Resedit will complain that it has no resource fork and will want to create one. Just say OK, and open the file, you'll see the <DF> ( Data Fork ) and the one Resource Resedit created. We only need the Data Fork, one it and copy the one resource in contains, don't open the resource itself, just highlight it and copy it.

Next we need to open the driver we want to modify, the ATI Via driver created by iMic for the Via Radeon9200M2 in the iBook G4. I think the file he modified was originally called the ATI Driver Update.

Open the <DF> and paste the data into it, Resedit will ask if you want to replace the ID with this one, and you do, so say yes. Note the length in bytes of this ID, on the right.

Now open the cfrg and open ID 0, scroll down to 1(member and edit the length to match the length in bytes of the Data Fork. The edit the member name to match the " compatible" property from our display 'NDRV', I.E. ATY,RockHopper2.

Close the driver and save it, place it in the extensions folder and reboot, you may need to remove any previous version of this driver.

The 2D Acceleration and 3D acceleration  where a matter of replacing the 5960 device ID's with the Device ID we want to use. I.E. 5961 or 5962 in three files, the ATI Graphics Accelerator( Two resources we need to change Accl one ID 4 GraphicsAccelerationR6, find 5961 in Hex, should be just after 2C00 in hex, change it to 5962, find the next 5961, again just after 2C00 in hex, change it to 5962. Next open the intr resource and open ID 0 GAInterfacePro, again search for 5961, just after 2C00 and replace it with 5962.

Close the driver and save it.

Open the ATI 8500 3D Accelerator, open the Data Fork, open ID 128 "Data Fork". Search for 5960 just after 2C00, replace it with, you guested it, 5962. Find the next 5960 after 2C00, replace it too. You should find two total after 2C00.

Close the file and save it.

Open the ATI Resource Manager. Open the Data Fork, ID 128, and replace only 5961 after 2C00 with 5962.(Six of them I think)

I think that was it, maybe I should only change the 5960 in the data fork of the Res.Man. that come after 2C00, I'll have to check that and see if things work better.



Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 23, 2018, 04:47:07 PM
As if OS 9 weren't nostalgic :P

"wtf, it is still in development from what i hear."
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: mrhappy on April 23, 2018, 08:22:46 PM

"wtf, it is still in development from what i hear."

Sure seems like it!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 24, 2018, 08:21:16 AM
DarthnVader,

That is an awesome walk thru and I did not realize it was sooo easy to modify video drivers for OS 9... NOT.

It is very clever and a priceless post for those who want to experiment "stealing" code and inserting it into other drivers, quite brilliant, thanks for the insight.  I am guessing Mactron was up all night at the M.A.R.L. facility copying and pasting code, then testing on his many G4s.... hehe
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on April 24, 2018, 09:36:42 AM
Open /System/Library/Extensions/AppleNDRV/ATIRuntimeDriver.bundle/Contents/MacOS/ATIRuntimeDriver in Hexedit.

Great writeup! Could you please post all the ATIRuntimeDrivers you've gotten your hands on, as well as the exact ATI extensions you modified?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 24, 2018, 12:44:04 PM
I edited the write up, I really need to take better notes, meaning I should make notes, that would be better than trying to remember everything. 8)

ELN, I'll have to upload the files, everything is spread across 6 Macs :P

Basically it's best to use the last Mac Radeon Update from 2005 to get the last drivers for OS 9.2.2 that ATI offered. It doesn't include the ATI Driver Update the iMic hacked into an NDRV for the iBook G4, but the ATI ROM Xtender is really the same thing. The cfrg resource needs two members, I'm not sure what the second member does, but it does something, and the data fork should be replaced with the 'NDRV' you want to use, as well as the first member of the cfrg edited as I outlined.

We'll have to look close at the Second Member from iMic's ATI Via Driver to see what it really does?

You can get the Via Driver from the RockHopper2 download I have in the Video sections, tho I'm sure you are already using it. ;D

https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ATI_Radeon_Retail_Installer/ati-retail-9-2-2-jan2005.hqx


The ATI Runtime Driver( RockHopper2 Updates seem to stop at 10.4.11 ) can be extracted from any PPC OS X update with Pacifist.

https://www.charlessoft.com/

I hack the ATI Rom Extender to work, so it would be nice if we could figure out how to add all three of the unsupported 'NDRV's into one Rom Xtender. I know that can be done, we just have to add members correctly to it. Also, the member size, can't figure that number out?

Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: trag on April 25, 2018, 04:29:52 PM
  That's really neat how the Mini and eMac are laid out almost exactly the same.  For some reason I never knew AirPort Extreme was a form of PCI device - perhaps I should try to graft a real PCI slot on to that?  Is there any pinout documented for that AirPort Extreme connector type?


I haven't read to the end of the thread yet, so my apologies if this has already been covered.   Also apologies for topic drift.   MacOS Plus I'd be happy to continue this in PM after this posting.

I looked into this a few years back.  I wanted to add gigabit ethernet to the G4 Minis.   I never executed, but here was my plan.   I think I went as far as getting the Airport Extreme module or whatever card plugs in that modified PCI slot.

We don't know the pinout of the sort-of mini-PCI slot.   We do know that it uses a Broadcom based card.  We don't know the pinout of hte Broadcom chip on the card (those datasheet often come with NDAs).   We do know that that Broadcom chip is/was used on vanilla PCI cards.   We do know the pinout of plain old vanilla PCI slots.

Get a continuity meter.  Get the card that goes in the Mini G4 slot.  Get a PCI card based on teh same Broadcom chip as the Mini-G4 card.    Trace the PCI signals from the PCI card edge to the Broadcom chip (desolder the chip if it's a BGA for easy access to pads).   Now you know the pinout of the Broadcom chip.   Trace the signals from the Broadcom chip on the Mini-G4 card to the connector on the Mini-G4 card.    Apply the transitive property.

Now you know the pinout of the G4 Mini's mini-PCI slot.    My thinking was that it would be fairly simple to build a RealTek 8169 based card for it, although I was flumoxed how I would bring the cable out of the box.   Even the Kensington Security slot is teeny tiny.   I wanted to use it for a backup server.   But then I bought a G4 Mini on Ebay and the seller sent me a Late 2009 Core2Duo and that solved that problem. 

This was many years ago, when the cost of a Core2Duo Mini was still substantial to my finances.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: trag on April 25, 2018, 05:35:21 PM
Two other quick thoughts.   

First, probably useless, but about 14 years ago I saw a very similar problem to the one MacOS Plus is having. Mine was with Radeon 7000 cards connected to an old Intellicolor 20 CRT monitor.   I always assumed that something about the cabling to that old monitor was causing the R7000 to think it was getting an EDID (or whatever the equivalent was) when it wasn't.    Adding back to back Mac to VGA and VGA to Mac adapters into the cable made the problem go away.

Second, based on a question a fellow asked over on the 68kmla forums...

The DVI port on the Minis is really two video ports -- the digital DVI pins and the analog VGA signal on the crossed tab-like pins.    Apparently they connect to different outputs of the 9200 graphics system.

There are adapters which will split a DVI connector into separate DVI-D and VGA outputs.   

Shouldn't it be possible with a little hacking to have 2 monitor support on the G4 Mini?   The iMacs based on Intrepid have 2 monitor support, so an example of the necessary firmware exists.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 25, 2018, 05:45:03 PM

The DVI port on the Minis is really two video ports -- the digital DVI pins and the analog VGA signal on the crossed tab-like pins.    Apparently they connect to different outputs of the 9200 graphics system.

There are adapters which will split a DVI connector into separate DVI-D and VGA outputs.   

Shouldn't it be possible with a little hacking to have 2 monitor support on the G4 Mini?   The iMacs based on Intrepid have 2 monitor support, so an example of the necessary firmware exists.

I will raise again the cost of a matrox dual Head  :(
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matrox-dualhead2go-/323222910668
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on April 25, 2018, 09:17:21 PM
@trag:  I have one of those DVI/VGA splitters.  The Mini refuses to enable both outputs at the same time.  Presumably this is hard-coded into the Radeon ROM, but it may very well only have one physical data output path to the two output driver ICs and preferencing logic for the port detection lines.

  When I have more time I'll respond about the PCI stuff.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 26, 2018, 03:22:50 AM
I had some limited success with the Bugsy 'NDRV' from the ATI ROM Xtender for the 9200 Hot Fix.

On a VGA display it would list every VGA mode the 9200 could display @4:3, and every refresh rate.

This could be used as a work a round for those having display issues with the Mini, it's less than ideal, as choosing a mode your display can't sync to or having a 3D game changing the display mode could be problematic.

I haven't tested it with 16:9 displays, or Digital, so YMMV.

 https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#9200rom

To test it, we resort to a dirty Open Firmware hack:

Code: [Select]
dev agp/@10/@0
" ATY,Bugsy" encode-string " compatible" property
bye

This allows us to use the 'NDRV' of Bugsy from the ATI ROM Xtender v1.2 installed from the Hot Fix, without having to remove the RockHopper2 'NDRV' I made for the Mini.

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 26, 2018, 04:58:52 AM
Apparently they connect to different outputs of the 9200 graphics system.

holy crap.

and a warm welcome. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on April 27, 2018, 11:07:30 AM
If you take a look in the Mac OS 7.6 CD image, there is a "Shut Down" application in the Apple Menu Items folder of the CD. I have taken this app and placed it in the Utilities folder of the Mac mini running OS 9, then assigned the application to a fn key (I chose F6). Now if the mouse cursor gets stuck, I press F6 and the Mac mini will shut down safely.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Daniel on April 27, 2018, 11:53:46 AM
Here's the output:

Code: [Select]
ffbbc000: 5a 82 00 02 6e 76 72 61 6d 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |Z...nvram.......|
ffbbc010: c1 d3 89 f1 00 00 02 cd 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc020: 5f 45 00 3e 73 79 73 74 65 6d 00 00 00 00 00 00 |_E.>system......|
ffbbc030: 00 02 00 00 63 61 73 68 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |....cash........|
ffbbc040: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc050: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc060: 00 00 00 00 be 23 c4 82 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.....#..........|
ffbbc070: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc080: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc090: 52 48 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |RHU.............|
ffbbc0a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc0f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc100: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc110: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc120: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc130: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc140: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc150: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 59 4d 35 30 35 46 44 50 |........YM505FDP|
ffbbc160: 52 48 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |RHU.............|
ffbbc170: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc180: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc190: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc1f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc200: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc210: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc220: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc230: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc240: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc250: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc260: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc270: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc280: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc290: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc2f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc300: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc310: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc320: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc330: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc340: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc350: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc360: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc370: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc380: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc390: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc3f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc400: 70 bd 00 c1 63 6f 6d 6d 6f 6e 00 00 00 00 00 00 |p...common......|
ffbbc410: 6c 69 74 74 6c 65 2d 65 6e 64 69 61 6e 3f 3d 66 |little-endian?=f|
ffbbc420: 61 6c 73 65 00 72 65 61 6c 2d 6d 6f 64 65 3f 3d |alse.real-mode?=|
ffbbc430: 66 61 6c 73 65 00 61 75 74 6f 2d 62 6f 6f 74 3f |false.auto-boot?|
ffbbc440: 3d 74 72 75 65 00 64 69 61 67 2d 73 77 69 74 63 |=true.diag-switc|
ffbbc450: 68 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 66 63 6f 64 65 2d 64 |h?=false.fcode-d|
ffbbc460: 65 62 75 67 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 6f 65 6d 2d |ebug?=false.oem-|
ffbbc470: 62 61 6e 6e 65 72 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 6f 65 |banner?=false.oe|
ffbbc480: 6d 2d 6c 6f 67 6f 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 75 73 |m-logo?=false.us|
ffbbc490: 65 2d 6e 76 72 61 6d 72 63 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 |e-nvramrc?=false|
ffbbc4a0: 00 75 73 65 2d 67 65 6e 65 72 69 63 3f 3d 66 61 |.use-generic?=fa|
ffbbc4b0: 6c 73 65 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 6d 61 63 2d |lse.default-mac-|
ffbbc4c0: 61 64 64 72 65 73 73 3f 3d 66 61 6c 73 65 00 73 |address?=false.s|
ffbbc4d0: 63 72 6f 6c 6c 2d 6c 6f 63 6b 3d 74 72 75 65 00 |croll-lock=true.|
ffbbc4e0: 73 6b 69 70 2d 6e 65 74 62 6f 6f 74 3f 3d 66 61 |skip-netboot?=fa|
ffbbc4f0: 6c 73 65 00 72 65 61 6c 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 2d 31 |lse.real-base=-1|
ffbbc500: 00 72 65 61 6c 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d 2d 31 00 6c 6f |.real-size=-1.lo|
ffbbc510: 61 64 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 30 78 38 30 30 30 30 30 |ad-base=0x800000|
ffbbc520: 00 76 69 72 74 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 2d 31 00 76 69 |.virt-base=-1.vi|
ffbbc530: 72 74 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d 2d 31 00 6c 6f 67 67 65 |rt-size=-1.logge|
ffbbc540: 72 2d 62 61 73 65 3d 2d 31 00 6c 6f 67 67 65 72 |r-base=-1.logger|
ffbbc550: 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d 2d 31 00 70 63 69 2d 70 72 6f |-size=-1.pci-pro|
ffbbc560: 62 65 2d 6d 61 73 6b 3d 2d 31 00 73 63 72 65 65 |be-mask=-1.scree|
ffbbc570: 6e 2d 23 63 6f 6c 75 6d 6e 73 3d 31 30 30 00 73 |n-#columns=100.s|
ffbbc580: 63 72 65 65 6e 2d 23 72 6f 77 73 3d 34 30 00 73 |creen-#rows=40.s|
ffbbc590: 65 6c 66 74 65 73 74 2d 23 6d 65 67 73 3d 30 00 |elftest-#megs=0.|
ffbbc5a0: 62 6f 6f 74 2d 76 6f 6c 75 6d 65 3d 33 00 67 6d |boot-volume=3.gm|
ffbbc5b0: 74 2d 6f 66 66 73 65 74 3d 30 00 62 6f 6f 74 2d |t-offset=0.boot-|
ffbbc5c0: 64 65 76 69 63 65 3d 68 64 3a 2c 5c 5c 3a 74 62 |device=hd:,\\:tb|
ffbbc5d0: 78 69 00 62 6f 6f 74 2d 66 69 6c 65 3d 00 62 6f |xi.boot-file=.bo|
ffbbc5e0: 6f 74 2d 73 63 72 65 65 6e 3d 73 63 72 65 65 6e |ot-screen=screen|
ffbbc5f0: 00 63 6f 6e 73 6f 6c 65 2d 73 63 72 65 65 6e 3d |.console-screen=|
ffbbc600: 73 63 72 65 65 6e 00 64 69 61 67 2d 64 65 76 69 |screen.diag-devi|
ffbbc610: 63 65 3d 65 6e 65 74 00 64 69 61 67 2d 66 69 6c |ce=enet.diag-fil|
ffbbc620: 65 3d 2c 64 69 61 67 73 00 69 6e 70 75 74 2d 64 |e=,diags.input-d|
ffbbc630: 65 76 69 63 65 3d 6b 65 79 62 6f 61 72 64 00 6f |evice=keyboard.o|
ffbbc640: 75 74 70 75 74 2d 64 65 76 69 63 65 3d 73 63 72 |utput-device=scr|
ffbbc650: 65 65 6e 00 69 6e 70 75 74 2d 64 65 76 69 63 65 |een.input-device|
ffbbc660: 2d 31 3d 2f 69 70 63 00 6f 75 74 70 75 74 2d 64 |-1=/ipc.output-d|
ffbbc670: 65 76 69 63 65 2d 31 3d 2f 69 70 63 00 6d 6f 75 |evice-1=/ipc.mou|
ffbbc680: 73 65 2d 64 65 76 69 63 65 3d 6d 6f 75 73 65 00 |se-device=mouse.|
ffbbc690: 6f 65 6d 2d 62 61 6e 6e 65 72 3d 00 6f 65 6d 2d |oem-banner=.oem-|
ffbbc6a0: 6c 6f 67 6f 3d 00 6e 76 72 61 6d 72 63 3d 00 62 |logo=.nvramrc=.b|
ffbbc6b0: 6f 6f 74 2d 63 6f 6d 6d 61 6e 64 3d 6d 61 63 2d |oot-command=mac-|
ffbbc6c0: 62 6f 6f 74 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 63 6c 69 |boot.default-cli|
ffbbc6d0: 65 6e 74 2d 69 70 3d 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d |ent-ip=.default-|
ffbbc6e0: 73 65 72 76 65 72 2d 69 70 3d 00 64 65 66 61 75 |server-ip=.defau|
ffbbc6f0: 6c 74 2d 67 61 74 65 77 61 79 2d 69 70 3d 00 64 |lt-gateway-ip=.d|
ffbbc700: 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 73 75 62 6e 65 74 2d 6d 61 |efault-subnet-ma|
ffbbc710: 73 6b 3d 00 64 65 66 61 75 6c 74 2d 72 6f 75 74 |sk=.default-rout|
ffbbc720: 65 72 2d 69 70 3d 00 62 6f 6f 74 2d 73 63 72 69 |er-ip=.boot-scri|
ffbbc730: 70 74 3d 00 61 61 70 6c 2c 70 63 69 3d 2f 40 66 |pt=.aapl,pci=/@f|
ffbbc740: 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 2f 40 31 30 ff 01 52 32 41 |0000000/@10..R2A|
ffbbc750: 44 ff 01 5f fb 82 ff 81 01 90 ff 81 81 ff 81 01 |D.._............|
ffbbc760: 62 ff 81 08 36 1a 07 80 08 20 ff 81 01 30 ff 81 |b...6.... ...0..|
ffbbc770: 01 20 04 38 04 57 ff 81 01 03 ff 81 01 05 04 38 |. .8.W.........8|
ffbbc780: 07 80 ff 81 01 01 ff 81 18 ff 01 00 62 6f 6f 74 |............boot|
ffbbc790: 2d 61 72 67 73 3d 00 61 61 70 6c 2c 74 64 6d 2d |-args=.aapl,tdm-|
ffbbc7a0: 75 6e 69 74 73 3d 00 72 61 6d 2d 73 69 7a 65 3d |units=.ram-size=|
ffbbc7b0: 30 78 34 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 00 70 6c 61 74 66 |0x40000000.platf|
ffbbc7c0: 6f 72 6d 2d 75 75 69 64 3d ff 06 10 ff 01 80 ff |orm-uuid=.......|
ffbbc7d0: 02 11 24 6f 1e 7a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |..$o.z..........|
ffbbc7e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc7f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc800: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc810: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc820: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc830: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc840: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc850: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc860: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc870: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc880: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc890: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc8f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc900: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc910: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc920: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc930: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc940: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc950: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc960: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc970: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc980: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc990: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbc9f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbca90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcaa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcab0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcac0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcad0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcae0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcaf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcb90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcba0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcbf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcc90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcca0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcce0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbccf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcd90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcda0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcde0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcdf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbce90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcea0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbceb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcec0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbced0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcee0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcef0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcf90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcfe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbcff0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd000: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd010: a0 1e 00 52 41 50 4c 2c 4d 61 63 4f 53 37 35 00 |...RAPL,MacOS75.|
ffbbd020: 00 00 4f 48 00 00 00 00 1b 88 20 cc 4e 75 4d 63 |..OH...... .NuMc|
ffbbd030: a8 00 00 00 cc 0a cc 0a 00 00 00 00 00 02 63 00 |..............c.|
ffbbd040: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd050: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd060: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd070: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd080: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd090: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 66 66 00 00 00 00 |..........ff....|
ffbbd0a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 25 00 00 00 00 00 |..........%.....|
ffbbd0b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd0c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd0d0: 00 70 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.p..............|
ffbbd0e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd0f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd100: 00 01 00 0a 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd110: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd120: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd130: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd140: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd150: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd160: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd170: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd180: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd190: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd1f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd200: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd210: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd220: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd230: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd240: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd250: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd260: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd270: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd280: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd290: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd2f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd300: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd310: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd320: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd330: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd340: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd350: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd360: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd370: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd380: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd390: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd3f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd400: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd410: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd420: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd430: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd440: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd450: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd460: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd470: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd480: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd490: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd4f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd500: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd510: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd520: de ad be ef de ad be ef de ad be ef de ad be ef |................|
ffbbd530: a1 15 00 81 41 50 4c 2c 4f 53 58 50 61 6e 69 63 |....APL,OSXPanic|
ffbbd540: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd550: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd560: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd570: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd580: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd590: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd5f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd600: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd610: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd620: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd630: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd640: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd650: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd660: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd670: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd680: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd690: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd6f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd700: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd710: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd720: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd730: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd740: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd750: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd760: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd770: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd780: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd790: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd7f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd800: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd810: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd820: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd830: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd840: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd850: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd860: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd870: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd880: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd890: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd8f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd900: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd910: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd920: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd930: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd940: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd950: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd960: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd970: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd980: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd990: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9a0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9b0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9c0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9d0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9e0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbd9f0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbda90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdaa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdab0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdac0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdad0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdae0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdaf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdb90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdba0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdbf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdc90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdca0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdce0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdcf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd40: 7f 45 00 2c 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 77 |.E.,wwwwwwwwwwww|
ffbbdd50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdd90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdda0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdde0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbddf0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbde90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdea0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdeb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdec0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbded0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdee0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdef0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf00: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf10: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf80: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdf90: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfa0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfb0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfc0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfd0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdfe0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
ffbbdff0: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|

  From what I'm seeing there, it doesn't appear to be storing the parameters we're looking for.  There's what appears to be entries for text mode size, possibly related to default telnet behavior?  Is it stored in the PRAM then?  One thing I've always wanted to be able to do, you'll recall I mentioned about hoping for some kind of friendly 'pre-boot' PRAM/NVRAM editor, is to force a particular resolution to be saved for the next boot without having to be purely at the mercy of the initial auto-detection.  Even Open Firmware displays at the last known good resolution that was stored, which can be really annoying if you want to view a large log and it happens to be displaying at 640x480!

  I also got the weird NTSC-related resolutions somewhere along the way with one of the ROMs.  SwitchRes automatically stores a new monitor profile every time it thinks a different monitor has been connected, so I can view that list like a historical record and see what kind of odd things happened even when it would boot to a blank screen at the desktop.  This is how I was able to determine that DVI was switching to a completely crap mode at the desktop - SwitchRes recorded an entry for 32x32 black and white mode, which is certainly a far cry from any typical 'slightly off' 1920x1080 timing!
That's weird. I assumed that nvram is where persistent changes would be stored. I am pretty sure that PRAM is a part of the nvram on PPC Macs. It would be right after the "RAPL,MacOS75" thing which indicates that that nvram partition belongs to Mac OS.

All those text entries at the start are the OF enviroment variables. They are readable with printenv and changable with setenv.

I suppose you could try looking at the OF screen device to see if there is anything useful there.
Code: [Select]
dev screen
ls
.properties
words
If you really want to look into this stuff, the PCI Driver Development Kit has a few tools in it. One lets you display the Name Registry and another one lets you read and write to pci devices manually. You might be able to get useful info there.

I am working on a graphical nvram patcher. I figured out how to embed a second program in a Mac OS ROM file so that  that program gets run instead of the Trampoline when the nvram is reset. The hard part is designing and programming a good-looking GUI that uses the OF Client Interface. It may be a while before I can do that part.

Sorry for taking so long. I just found this window open and realized I hadn't hit the post button.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: trag on April 27, 2018, 03:48:26 PM
I don't know about on New World machines, but on X500, X600 PPC Macs, PRAM is stored in the (68HC05 based) CUDA chip (341S0788).  The NVRAM is stored on a separate SRAM chip which is not a custom Apple chip.  It's just whatever 32Kb (IIRC) SRAM Apple bought that week.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 27, 2018, 10:14:35 PM
I don't know about on New World machines, but on X500, X600 PPC Macs, PRAM is stored in the (68HC05 based) CUDA chip (341S0788).  The NVRAM is stored on a separate SRAM chip which is not a custom Apple chip.  It's just whatever 32Kb (IIRC) SRAM Apple bought that week.

Most of the unsupported systems use a AMD-0137.

OS 9 can't write to it, something else we should fix.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacTron on April 28, 2018, 11:28:27 AM
DarthnVader,
I am guessing Mactron was up all night at the M.A.R.L. facility copying and pasting code, then testing on his many G4s.... hehe
;D ;D ;D
Unfortunately this stuff is beyond my capabilities ...
... even it takes me some effort to follow some threads like this ...
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: solderwire on April 29, 2018, 09:43:50 PM
Finally got Simplified Chinese version of 9.2.2 running on my Mac mini G4 ;)
Just replace display drivers, ROM file, and delete the Multiprocessing folder 8)
With an 120 GB hard drive, I installed Tiger on it, and I am planning to make tri-boot (OS 9, Tiger and Leopard) for software compatibilities.
And I also need to add some Chinese translation to the Mac OS ROM.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 30, 2018, 12:20:01 PM
*** Interesting Update on Intermittent "Frozen Mouse" Issue ***

So, the mouse issue, at times the mini has an issue, as reported my many, where the mouse cursor is frozen in one position, yet the machine is not locked up and the mouse "click" still responds, yet mouse cannot move.

So rather than use my programmed shutdown F6 key (thanks Ross); I decided leave the mouse in the "frozen" mode and plug into the key board an original "white" Genuine single click apple mouse (into my genuine apple keyboard) and VIOLA... full mouse support !   The non-apple mouse still frozen with a working click and the apple mouse working 100% !

Ok... now the weirdness...  I decided then, without rebooting... to unplug the Dead aftermarket mouse from USB1 and put the Genuine apple on USB1... I really expected it NOT to work, but VIOLA, it works perfectly !  Switched them again, without restarting and the 3rd party mouse is working again... so the apple mouse reset the frozen Jam-up.  So, my dear Gurus, if we can tell Open firmware that the mouse is a Genuine Apple mouse, I think we will have no more "Frozen Mouse"

LASTLY, we need to ask ALL mini users, are the using USB Overdrive (since it has a modified USB Mouse driver) or the stock 9.2.2 driver.  I am going to see if I get the freeze-up with the USB overdrive extensions turned off
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4
Post by: FdB on April 30, 2018, 02:49:07 PM
No frozen meese here, ever. Always using the original,
genuine Apple mouse and zero use of USB overdrive.
Voilà! ;D

Now, if I could just get away from option-booting between OS9 and OS X...
(and the clock time-shift weirdness between the two) I'd be extremely hap-hap-happy!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on April 30, 2018, 03:55:02 PM
Finally got Simplified Chinese version of 9.2.2 running on my Mac mini G4 ;)


congrats Solderwire!
"to boldly go where none have gone before!"
heheh  8)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 30, 2018, 04:14:39 PM
So, my dear Gurus, if we can tell Open firmware that the mouse is a Genuine Apple mouse, I think we will have no more "Frozen Mouse"

i am afraid that it will also act like an apple mouse when you do that, but interesting find.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 30, 2018, 06:32:08 PM
I meant for the Non-Apple mouse, to tell OF that the mouse was a Genuine Apple mouse, when it is in fact a generic
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 30, 2018, 06:38:41 PM
i know what you mean, but that "mouse" is the INIT of usboverdrive, isnt it?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 30, 2018, 06:47:02 PM
Obviously, since I changed no other settings, it is "seeing" the 2 devices differently regardless or the default setting
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on May 01, 2018, 12:30:42 AM
OF doesn't really care what mouse we use, seems to be Apple's USBhid driver.

We could give Open Firmware the Apple Vendor and Product ID's, but most of the time OS 9 drivers are wise to these sort of hacks. I've noted with PCI Device ID's that overriding them in OF, OS X will use the property you hack onto the Device Tree, while OS 9 drivers will poll the hardware.

Now if it is a property built into the device tree by the Boot ROM or an Option ROM, OS 9 is none the wiser about changes made to those sort of properties.

OS X is wise to PVR hacks, mach_kernel reads the PVR value from the CPU, not the device tree, however OS 9 will just take whatever value we give the CPU in the device tree.

I'll check and see what info we can hack about our mices ;D

Adding to the confusion OF builds properties for the via-pmu adb mouse, the pseudo-hid mouse, and the USB mouse.

I would assume that the classic Mac OS have some deep hooks for ADB.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on May 05, 2018, 04:46:06 AM
OS X is wise to PVR hacks, mach_kernel reads the PVR value from the CPU, not the device tree, however OS 9 will just take whatever value we give the CPU in the device tree.

The NanoKernel and the CPU Plugin seem to be exceptions: they ignore the device tree (the NK would have trouble even accessing it), and use the PVR directly. This is actually quite annoying, because it makes a NanoKernel patch necessary to support full power management on a new CPU.

Unfortunately, issuing an "mtpvr" instruction has no effect (it actually crashes QEMU).
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on May 05, 2018, 06:03:13 AM
RossDarker,

I've just been refamiliarising myself with iMic's excellent ROMs for unsupported machines. He included the extension "Insomnia" to prevent those machines from sleeping that would crash. Instead of omitting the important Apple CPU Plugins file from the default install, could you please include Insomnia?

Great work on that CD, by the way. I used it recently to set up my own mini!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 05, 2018, 06:16:21 AM
Thanks. Yes I will put this in both CD and the install I guess. I cannot find this extension however. If you can link me to it I can start making v6 of the CD. Does this mean that if you try to sleep, even with Multiprocessing and Insomnia extension in, it will stop you from sleeping?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 05, 2018, 06:20:50 AM
Wait I just found the Insomnia extension with "1021v1_Generic_ROM.sit". I'll get making.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 05, 2018, 06:45:50 AM
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on May 05, 2018, 07:16:00 AM
It's certainly possible to remove it, but I'm not very keen to dive into that. I'd rather keep the pressure on to get sleep working!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on May 05, 2018, 07:31:43 AM
I have an idea about the mouse pointer problem. Here's what information seems to be available on the forum:

Here's what else I know:


Could it be that the new USBShimKeyboard contains a fix to this very problem? Let's give it a go! Attached is a ROM file containing the new resource.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacTron on May 05, 2018, 09:09:17 AM
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.

Replacing Energy Saver control panel by Sleeper this issue is solved because Sleeper control pannel disable CPU sleep from the main menu also, while alow the HD and display to sleep and wake up as usually.
This is a good solution because 7447 and 7448 don't actually need CPU sleep as it have frecuency scalling tecnology, IIRC.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 05, 2018, 10:43:43 AM
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.

the easiest way to remove a menu entry (without causing disorder of the items or bringing up errors when it is missing) is to rename the item to --- which will turn it into a dividerline, i.e. the item is still present but noone can accidentially click it (or its set command key combination)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 05, 2018, 12:30:32 PM
Quote
he easiest way to remove a menu entry (without causing disorder of the items or bringing up errors when it is missing) is to rename the item to --- which will turn it into a dividerline, i.e. the item is still present but noone can accidentially click it (or its set command key combination)

Interesting, I will try that
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on May 05, 2018, 03:01:23 PM
Ok I see so the extensions prevents it from automatically sleeping I think. Is there a way to remove the Sleep option from the Special menu from the Finder? This would be great because then no one will even be able to accidentally sleep the machine.

Replacing Energy Saver control panel by Sleeper this issue is solved because Sleeper control pannel disable CPU sleep from the main menu also, while alow the HD and display to sleep and wake up as usually.
This is a good solution because 7447 and 7448 don't actually need CPU sleep as it have frecuency scalling tecnology, IIRC.

Interesting, have you tried that on the Mini?

Does the display sleep and wake correctly with "Sleeper"?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 05, 2018, 03:30:16 PM
The display dims until it goes off and it does wake back up, also hard disk spin down seems to work. That's using "Sleep" from special menu, or a quick Power Button press. I am making V6 of the ISO with Sleeper Panel and Strip instead of the Energy Saver ones. Also Multiprocessing is in by default because of this Sleep stuff.

Right now just fixing a few aliases and stuff, lucky I found a CD-RW lying around which helps a lot because now I don't have to burn multiple discs if I find something's wrong, I can now just correct and reburn the same disc. It fits so well too, the CD is 650MB and the ISO is 647MB.

I will also make a separate Apple Script app, as well as the whole V6 ISO, that updates from a V5 install to the new V6 stuff so you don't have to reinstall the whole OS, and so you don't have to burn another CD.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 05, 2018, 03:56:06 PM
yes please, thanks, just the updated files to be replaced would be most welcome.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 05, 2018, 04:16:03 PM
*** Sound Advanced for the Mac mini - Real World Testing ***

OK, so the sound issues with the Mac Mini really put a damper on my initial testing, so I decided to Load up the DieHard Instant DAW
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2716.0.html

and Test Cubase and other Virtual instruments on the Mac mini.

So initially, I hit a brick wall Cubase would crash at the loading logo and give "error type 3" and freeze the mini 100%.  I could not force quit the application :(

So, thinking CuBase did NOT like the sound chip (as Mactron mentioned), I stuck in my faithful USB M-Audio Transit
This thing fuc*&ing rocks, as it will record/playback up to 24 Bit 96K audio, ebay price about $30 to $40

(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4339.jpg)

Now the mac mini had a Mac Keyboard in USB1, a mouse into the keyboard, and the M-audio transit in USB2
I used a 6 inch USB cable and it still looks compact.

=========================================================================

OK, so I did the install for the Transit and BAM !  Instant normal sound, route the sound control panel in/out and even if you do not record music, this is a great addition to the mini under OS 9 since it is very small and make the mini act "normal" with system sound and all apps

(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4340.jpg)
(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4341.jpg)

Ohh... and here are the added Control Panel and extensions:

(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4342.jpg)
(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4343.jpg)

=========================================================================

Now load the ASIO driver into CuBase and viola, no more crash, loads and runs like a champ !!!!

(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4345.jpg)
(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4346.jpg)

Now the shocker, I loaded a song that contained 32 bit floating point audio files (true tape) and this baby still played them back !  So the transit can actually be used to mixdown 32 Bit projects on the mini. Overall performance was great, Unit noise is Very low (super quiet) and it is a very nice DAW for OS 9

(http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/images/diehardposts/IMG_4347.jpg)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on May 05, 2018, 05:30:45 PM
Very nice, DieHard! I'm glad to see this thing being put to use.

My testing has revealed that the new ROM, with its updated USBShimKeyboard, does *not* fix the mouse pointer problem. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 05, 2018, 06:38:11 PM
that you can use 32 bit float within apps is no wonder, because asio handles all of this.

the only thing i dont understand is why soundmanager sometimes chrashes on the built-in - and sometimes not? i see no pattern there yet. eventually the current solution in the mini OS is picky with denormal data.


Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 05, 2018, 06:44:42 PM
completely offtopic: the latest generation of intels mini computers serve up to 6 (!) 4k monitors.

and now back to the past, where everything was better. :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 05, 2018, 07:26:41 PM
Actually the interface has to handle whether or not it will play back 32 bit audio files The built-in Mac sound only  play back 16 but it will not play back 32 bit or 24-bit four. I expected the transit to only play back 24 bit files not 32
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 06, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
Version 6 of the Mac mini CD and Install:
Changes are: Better performance. Multiprocessing folder in by default, Sleeper replaces Energy Saver, the CD has updated Apple Menu Items and added a Shut Down app in the CD Extras that you can assign to a FN key so if the mouse cursor gets stuck, you can shut down the Mac mini safely.

The whole v6 ISO (boot and install):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIV7qT8GKwG8IFinjwyYiTMGWR61f0fu/view?usp=sharing

Update 5 to 6 (update from a current v5 install to the new v6 without CD):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jXAOuMVm85LDp_L2OaeWJTGiRdF-CVAN/view?usp=sharing
This SIT file is also attached to this post so you can directly download onto the Mac mini.

Once again, you burn the ISO to a disc, and boot the Mac mini off the disc and install.

If you are updating from v5 to v6 using the updater, make sure the folder you unstuff is on the desktop on your Mac mini and you are currently booted off your v5 installation on your hard disk, not the CD or anything else. If you have not added the Multiprocessing folder, you will get an error running one of the updater apps, just completely ignore it, it does not matter. After the reboot, you will be running version 6, with all the new stuff.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: mrhappy on May 06, 2018, 12:31:43 PM
Damn you people!! Now I have to buy a mini or 2 and one of those Transit interfaces!! ;D ;D

Thanks to all and nice work on the cd there RossDarker!!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 06, 2018, 01:09:00 PM
Actually the interface has to handle whether or not it will play back 32 bit audio files The built-in Mac sound only  play back 16 but it will not play back 32 bit or 24-bit four. I expected the transit to only play back 24 bit files not 32

i am not sure what the rule is (ASIO 2.0?), but the majority of ASIO supported devices on MacOS8+ can do float.

regarding the internal problem, ASIO Soundmanager is not talking to the device, there is Soundmanager in between. and it´s mister soundmanagers job to find out what the interface likes and what not. (to my knowledge soundmanager doesnt support floating point formats at all, but only 1-32 bit int.) and steinberg never allowed anyone to see the API in these days. :)

suspicious candidates are in the region of gestalt selector or channel initialisation of soundmanager, or in the device itself. but these thigns are a mystery to me.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 06, 2018, 06:16:54 PM
*** Warning... way off topic... not in Kansas anymore ***

One of the cool things about "Cubase VST 5/32" was the 32... It was implemented as the ability to sound "Like tape" a Reel of tape that is.  So Even with an audio interface that peaked at "24-Bit" recording, could still track recordings and create the "32-Bit" Audio Files by obviously padding Zeros to the 24-Bit Data.  Why do this ?  Why waste hard drive space ?  Well you would think there was no purpose, but 2 reasons come to mind:

1) The internal effects (Reverb, delay, etc.) were 32-bit Plug-ins and there is definitely more "numbers" to play with... the actual knobs (Volume, send, return) have more headroom (more numbers to play with) and the degree of control by using very small increments of the parameters is noticeable, it is also very hard to "peak" an audio file since you have more numbers per fader mark and mixing it easier and smoother "in the box" even if you are going to dither down to 16-Bit files in the Final Mix.
 
2) Most premium DAWS have an Audio engine that is 32-Bit internally and it actually takes less CPU to work with 32-Bit source files, then internally manipulating (padding) on the fly. So contrary to what you may think, less CPU spikes with 32-Bit, but more disk I/O, On OS 9, CPU is a more limiting factor... especially today.

So that brings us to Today's world view.  It is a famous pain the the ass that programs like Logic Pro 9 and others cannot playback 32-Bit files without converting them prior to loading them into Logic.  You can See the wave forms, but no audio is produced... and no error either.... a real stumper.  Files that are "dead silent" as Apple gave up on that "32-Bit" floating point idea all together... yes go 48K, 88K, 96K or more with Sample rates, but recording audio at 24-Bits is the ceiling.  Hmmm, in some ways the ancient CuBase may have been ahead of it's time, but a modern mac can produce amazing results with 24-Bit Files created from excellent converters (RME, apogee, etc.). So all projects I do these days on logic are done at 44K (24 Bit); if you are using samples and loops (almost ALL are 44K) the I suggest this is your norm also; the exception would be music for film/TV, in that case go to 48K (the video industry standard).  Re-Mixing old stuff is a problem in a modern system if the source files are 32-Bit.  Again, the "I can hear a huge difference" with 32-Bit files is was always a mute point.  Even back in the day, with Cubase, as I explained, 32-Bit was great for mixing if you were going to use the internal mixer without outboard gear... I never used it because I felt I could "hear a difference" in a file at 24 bit compared to 32 Bit...

Sorry, back to the mini and OS 9 and CuBase, so the "Sound Manager" ASIO driver is limited to record and playback 16-Bit Audio files; if you select "True Tape 32-Bit" in Cubase (or even 24-Bit) it will pad zeros and create files that you cannot playback due to the Hardware limitation of the Built-in audio chips. Many 20-Bit hardware audio interfaces will playback and record 24-Bit audio files with a little "Manufacturer" magic, so the fact that the transit played back 32-Bit audio files on the mini was very surprising to me.  I originally used the transit back in the day to have an "Optical" TOSLINK port on my G4 powerbook and do some mixing on the road (with 24-Bit) files since the internal G4 Powerbook sound could not do this as explained.  I am guessing that tracking files may NOT sound so good with the transit (since I doubt it has great converters, but I do not know), but I never tried that.  Also, we have yet to try a FireWire interface on the mini, which may be the real answer for musicians. I gave my last Audiophile FW interface to a valued member here, so it's up to a musician, mini, and FW interface under OS 9 to post the results.

To summarize, the M-Audio" transit is an excellent addition to the mini for ALL users since it routes the "Sound manager" audio to the transit and it has a nice stereo 1/8" jack for your speakers.  So I am suggesting this for mini owners until the internal sound issues under OS 9 are sorted out :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: mrhappy on May 06, 2018, 07:53:55 PM

 I am guessing that tracking files may NOT sound so good with the transit

Most of the stuff I deal with is tracked through a Burl Mothership (which sounds great!). PT 12x Still lets you save sessions as 5.1 so I bring them home for the OS9 rig to do what I gotta do! ;D

Have a Transit on the way... mini(s) soon to follow. ;D Have a few firewire interfaces that I can try out.

All this recent OS9 activity certainly shines a new light on the 'lowly' G4 mini... I can see incorporating a few of them into my setup!!!

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: mrhappy on May 06, 2018, 07:57:40 PM
in some ways the ancient CuBase may have been ahead of it's time

Yes, I think you're right about that!! ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on May 06, 2018, 10:03:06 PM
The whole v6 ISO (boot and install):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIV7qT8GKwG8IFinjwyYiTMGWR61f0fu/view?usp=sharing

Once again, you burn the ISO to a disc, and boot the Mac mini off the disc and install.

Just a heads up, the ISO-to-a-disc did not work. Had to install v5 first,
in order to then use the "ISO to disc" CD. (No v5 on mini beforehand.)
(Might be just me?)

Now the little monster has been running PShop and Illustrator all night.
 ;) Got a little 250GB LaCie mini FW HD with this one.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 06, 2018, 10:23:01 PM
Fury deBongo what is not working with the v6 ISO? Does Mac mini not boot it, or does it boot but it's not restoring or does the restored system not work? I have it working burned it to a CD from High Sierra, and too from a PowerBook and it works fine. You could also try locking the ISO file before burning it.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on May 06, 2018, 11:15:00 PM
Mini would not boot or even "see" it via a variety of methods (option-boot, C-boot, etcetera). I just installed v5 and then it would boot the v6 CD and install.
I'll try locking the ISO file before burning on any subsequent attempts. I didn't try the v6 updater version on the other mini with v5 already present.
Figured I'd just use this "full version" v6 CD. This "newer" mini is working very well with the v6. Thanks Ross!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 07, 2018, 03:46:39 AM
Wait so after you have installed v5 you can boot from v6? Ok have you been able to boot from v6 at all. That would be strange if you can boot the CD after a v5 install, but not before. Or are you running the ASR app, not booted off the CD, but just running the app from an installed system, and restore to another partition? It would only be worth locking the ISO if you are burning it from 10.5 and below (because HFS standard-write support), if you were on Windows or any higher Mac OS, it should just work. Maybe try burning at a lower speed. Or you could try the toast file of v6:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DR7G3gowU7ebzwRdXj5s6B5TPC7825s7/view?usp=sharing
(before being converted to ISO), see if you can boot that.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 07, 2018, 05:15:46 AM
*** Warning... way off topic... not in Kansas anymore ***One of the cool things about "Cubase VST 5/32" was the 32... It was implemented as the ability to sound "Like tape" a Reel of tape that is. So Even with an audio interface that peaked at "24-Bit" recording, could still track recordings and create the "32-Bit" Audio Files by obviously padding Zeros to the 24-Bit Data.

who needs kansas when you can have a good offtopic discussion instead!

i am sorry tro go contrary but the true tape plug-in has nothing to do with the ability of the host to write and read 32 bit files. from a technical standpoint it does not make much sense that the app does not allow to write 24 bits when you activate the true tape recording mode. it is only a matter of convenience. (granted, this is a good reason)

the main feature of 32 bit streams is that you can write files which are over 0 db, so that you dont have to care about the gain. this is nice to have for quick mixdown - or for recording through the tape plug-in.

if you work in an app in 32 or 64 bits and send a stream to an IO, it is the job of the DAE/ASIO/CoreAudio driver to know what the IO can do (usually 24 bits) and convert that stream to 24 bits (or eventually 16) so that the converter can work with it.
to my knowwledge there is no delta sigma modulation device which can directly receive a floating point format.

oh and btw .. the conversion to 32 bit is more than padding zeros, it is a completely different format.

padding zeros is what protools did, or iOS 3 with their "24.8" or "double 24.8" formats.

digidesign explained us for decades that integer would sound better. but after PT 10 had been cracked and a third party sound engine was released in the scene (which was 64 bit float, beause it was made by humans and not chimpanzes*), digi switched to float, too a few weeks later and called it an "innovation". :D

...

since i use 32 bit float file formats am sometimes a bit annoyed that many of my favorite OS9 programs do not support it, so that you have to import/export/convert all the time.

and i think it is quite strange that steinberg added support for 64 bit float import and export with cubase 5 but then needed 8 years until they finally equipped their own mixers and effects in cubase with full 64 bit support, too. that just doesnt make sense.

then again, they also support DSD streams in cubase without supporting the corresponding PCM samplerate at the VST interface. :D

recently i argued against 32 bit integer converters on the coreaudio mailinglist - and got corrected by someone who actcually builds and sells those. he said "why not do that when it is possible?" and i could not prove that idea wrong.

*) note to self: it is "chimpanzee", not "chipmonk"
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 07, 2018, 08:19:32 AM
For those getting lost in this "aside" off-topic, a simple explanation fro "Ask-audio"
Quote
The Theory
32 bit floating point audio files have a theoretical dynamic range of up to around 1680 dB. Compare that with the 144 dB available from 24 bit recordings and you will realise that it’s quite an improvement! In terms of resolution that’s a lot more than the human brain could ever decipher. Add to that the fact that there is no audio interface currently available that has Analog-to-Digital and Digital-to-Analog converters that are anything but either 16 or 24 bit and you may begin to wonder - what’s the point?

The Advantages
So having your 24 bit recordings in 32 bit floating point format will not change the quality of the initial recordings themselves, but creating audio files in this format before they are processed by plug-ins will help you avoid the following:
    Clipping during AudioSuite rendering
    Unnecessary noise introduced by AudioSuite dithering
    Rounding errors during signal processing

These issues then are mostly caused by the fact that with either 16 or 24 bit audio the data requires conversion at the point of processing
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 08, 2018, 04:06:37 AM
i guess we just hijacked the thread.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: mrhappy on May 08, 2018, 07:13:33 AM
i guess we just hijacked the thread.

Ok then one more silly post till we get back on track...

Hey DieHard, I just noticed your tooth brush in one of your pics... are you related to the Osmond family??  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 08, 2018, 08:13:12 AM
Quote
Hey DieHard, I just noticed your tooth brush in one of your pics
Yeah, we use all sorts of stuff on people's computers when they are not looking :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacOS Plus on May 08, 2018, 12:40:13 PM
  He also has a couple of PS2-to-USB adapters there - Gasp!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Roman78 on May 09, 2018, 10:25:36 PM
Great Work! I installed it on one of my Mini's and it worked like a charm.

Although i'm not able to make a network connection. It won't get a DHCP address, when I add an address manually it also won't work. Or an i just to Stopid :D I didn't worked much whit OS9. 
Title: Re: Booting Mac Os 9 on Mac Mini.
Post by: macStuff on May 10, 2018, 04:38:51 AM
Mystery figured out, I was multitasking and did not realize that the Mini had 250GB hard drives.... that's what I get for being old and working on too much at once, so the boot partition was too large for OS9, re-partitioned into 2 and voila, image works fine :)

Can't wait to test it out later on :)

this limit only applies to the "first" or "Boot" drive partition right?
to have it be under 190GB
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 10, 2018, 07:56:57 AM
@Roman78, Sometimes you can open the Setup assistant again, I think it's in Applications (Mac OS 9):Utilities:Assistants: then I think you don't run "Mac OS Setup Assistant", but go in another folder and run the setup assistant in there, you'll know it's the right one if you get the blue screen and welcome movie. Now go through the setup until you reach the internet part. Click "use existing internet service" (something like that), then select DSL modem. After, enter your email address into the first two boxes, and in the 3rd type something like "smtp.gmail.com", leaving all optional boxes blank, then click continue and after it should say "Your Going Online" click connect, and it should open IE5 and give a server invalid error. Now you should be able to browse best with Classilla, (which you copy from the CD Extras folder on the Mac mini OS 9 CD).
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Roman78 on May 10, 2018, 10:54:49 AM
@RossDarker, Thanks for the reply. But now it just worked after i restarted. I have the same strange thing on my hacky. When i Boot without cable it won't work. Do i boot whit cable it works. Now i have to connect my NAS.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 10, 2018, 11:04:03 AM
Nice
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 10, 2018, 12:11:44 PM
DHPC with fixed adress basically works like on OSX, it is just not called explicitely "DHCP with manual adress", it is called "manually" and you have to make sure that your IP is actually in the correct range.

in OS9, networking prefs is spread across several control panels, and for DHCP or LAN jobs you only need to configure the TCP/IP one.

evenntually you also have to turn off appletalk (with the "chooser" application in the apple menu (what a silly place to put apps!)), but on the mini install CD it is of course off by default.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 11, 2018, 11:25:35 PM
Hi, I have installed v6 on my 1.42Mini. I made a partition table in OS9:

60 MB DH0
20 GB OS9
40 GB OSX
16 GB DH1

OS9 did install on the 20GB Partition. First start the mouse-pointer freezed. I hava a pro-keyboard and installed the usb-mouse in an USB plug on the mini. then it worked. The first restart I recognized that there is no audio from the internal speaker. I cannot change that yet. Is there something wrong or do I need a USB sounddevice?

After that I installed Pather. If I am not pressing the "choice" key. always panther will be loaded. That is no a big issue but I will have to wait long if I would like to start OS9.

DH0 and DH1 are prepared for MorphOS, but the installer of MorphOS seems to have problems with the partitiontable OS9 created on the HDD.

Doc 
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 12, 2018, 12:55:52 AM
@drzeissler,  thanks for trying out the v6 CD. The mouse cursor can get stuck yes, and people in this thread are trying to fix it.

About the sound, the internal speaker does not work yet, but for me I didn't ever use the internal speaker (in my opinion it's just meant for the chime). The way I get sound is connect a HiFi to the headphone jack. It needs to have a volume control on the speaker you connect because you can not adjust the sound from the OS, and so only from the speaker. A USB sound device or even FireWire would probably work too.

You say that it will load panther if not using option key. Now you can set the startup disk using the OS 9 Startup Disk control panel, it's also listed in the Apple Menu in the Control Panels folder. This should let you choose either to load OS 9 or Panther by default (click the triangle on the disk to select startup system folder). You probably have to use option key to choose Morph OS (if you get it installed) though you can set it in Open Firmware I think to choose which default partition.

You could try and follow and mix together these guides, to get OS 9, OS X and Morph OS:
http://lowendmac.com/2010/create-a-triple-boot-mac-with-os-9-os-x-and-linux/
https://dreamolers.binaryriot.org/dualboot.pdf

They use disk utility in that second one, but it won't let you choose OS 9 drivers on the Mac mini in OS X, so you probably will have to use the terminal and "diskutil partitionDisk" with the correct options to get the drivers in.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 12, 2018, 02:30:21 AM
Thx!
I wanted to use that MorphOS guide but it hangs during hdd-setup. I make some pictures of it.

Within panther it recognizes the OS9 system folder for "classic" but tells me that he will have to make changes. I did not do that.
Classic is not usefull anymore if I get native OS9 on the Mini.

Changing the "startup-disk" from os9 or osx is not working from both sides. I 'll have to checkout from which side it was not working and it's not that thin I want.

I want a startmenu like I have on my other Systems that is displayed everytime I startup the machine and that let's me choose which OS I want.

e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/94839221@N05/41310819881/in/dateposted-public/
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 12, 2018, 02:35:20 AM
There is probably a way of getting the "multi-boot" command to happen, every time you startup. Like if you go to CMD+ALT+O+F, and type multi-boot, you will get to the option screen. You could put it in the NVRAM and have it display every time without holding the OPT key. Not quite sure how to do this though, but be careful when you nvedit.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on May 12, 2018, 04:18:36 AM
As to the startup disk:

We do not yet have an NVRam driver for OS 9, so OS 9 can't set the startup disk, OS X will refuse to select OS 9 as a startup disk on an unsupported system. However you can set OS 9 as a startup disk from the terminal, something like:

Code: [Select]
sudo bless /path/to/OS 9/System Folder/ -setboot
Once you have OS 9 set in the NVram, then you'll just have to option boot to select OS X. If you have both OS 9 and OS X installed on the same partition, then you will only see the folder that is blessed when you option boot, and that can be problematic.

I recommend avoiding installing 9 and X on the same partition.

 
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 12, 2018, 04:23:28 AM
Would:
Code: [Select]
nvedit
multi-boot

(Press Ctrl + C)

nvstore
setenv use-nvramrc? true
reset-all

Make it so you see the startup disk (OPTION key) screen every time you turn on/restart the computer?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 12, 2018, 05:32:41 AM
Here are some shots of my system.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94839221@N05/albums/72157666841174377

Panther is always bootet. If I want OS9 I'll have to hold the Option-Key and WAIT.
As you described above, neither OS9 can change the bootup-partition nor OSX.

MorphOS installer sees crap-partition-table and perhaps destroys it if I correct the wrong ending-sektors

Greetings
Doc
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 12, 2018, 08:16:55 AM
If I want to change the partition table that was created with OS9
I think I have to boot the v6-CD again, but that leads to a black desktop after a while ... :(
Booting OS9 of the HDD is fine though.

Any idea why ?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 12, 2018, 08:40:27 AM
Do you see the desktop at all from the CD?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 12, 2018, 08:48:40 AM
Yes I see it about 10-20 seconds, then it gets all black and stays black.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 12, 2018, 08:51:06 AM
That is strange, I will make a new CD, v7, a remake, I do need to change something in the Base System too, so it is a great time to do this.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 12, 2018, 12:41:14 PM
It was an issue with the dual-in setup (PC/MAC). Using only the mac and everything is ok.

Do you think there will an "option" for the internal speaker or is it completely useless in OS9?
Using a powered sub-sat system leads to "plops" when using the menu and the sound seems completly oversteered.

What Sound device is optimal for that OS9-Mini ?

Thx!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 12, 2018, 01:37:57 PM
Right now the internal speaker is completely useless.

The speaker I connect the Mac mini too is called an AZATOM UFO, which I got a few years ago for my iPod touch.
It works well with the Mac mini in OS 9.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 12, 2018, 03:41:56 PM
What Sound device is optimal for that OS9-Mini ?

anything firewire or usb with OS9 drivers will work.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 13, 2018, 06:26:35 AM
M-Audio FireWire Audiophile

Can a MT32 hooked up to that device and can it be used under OS9.22 and 10.3.9 with ScummVM
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on May 13, 2018, 07:11:33 AM
M-Audio FireWire Audiophile

Can a MT32 hooked up to that device and can it be used under OS9.22 and 10.3.9 with ScummVM

Avoid the M-Audio Firewire models, the Audiophile in particular, we have no working OS 9 drivers for it. There is a thread about it:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=3471.0

I've been working all day trying to get the one DieHard sent me to work under OS 9, however nothing I do has made it work, and I'm unsure what the trouble is, I'll update that thread if I ever figure the trouble.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 13, 2018, 08:10:03 AM
This one took me a day because of the amount of problems I ran into, but I have finally perfected, Mac mini OS 9 CD v7.
Everyone should use this as it is far better than v6 & v5. The performance is much better, and the new Suitcase makes the system cleaner, and the CD install is easier to use.

Download ISO here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-bPJg1dqEPTbE5GNEuEP_V-KqgMl-dm6/view?usp=sharing
Burn, boot, install.

Completely remade the CD, though it is very similar to v6
Mac Torrent now in CD Extras folder, as well as USB Overdrive, Classilla, Bugdom (SW), Shut Down.
As in v6, Multiprocessing is in by default.
Sleeper Control Panel & Control Strip and Scripting Addition replace Energy Saver ones.
Apple Menu on the CD contains all the apps you need to make the install, and took out useless Apple Menu Items for installing.
System Suitcase no longer uses the patched boot resource ID 3.
Once again, you should all use this.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 13, 2018, 09:24:13 AM
M-Audio FireWire Audiophile

Can a MT32 hooked up to that device and can it be used under OS9.22 and 10.3.9 with ScummVM

Avoid the M-Audio Firewire models, the Audiophile in particular, we have no working OS 9 drivers for it. There is a thread about it:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=3471.0

I've been working all day trying to get the one DieHard sent me to work under OS 9, however nothing I do has made it work, and I'm unsure what the trouble is, I'll update that thread if I ever figure the trouble.

So what should I go for if I want to use OS9/OSX 10.3.9 and ScummVM and a real MT32/CM32L.
Should be small and not too expansive.

Thx
Doc
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 13, 2018, 11:04:49 AM
ScummVM and a real MT32/CM32L.

i have no idea what that is. however, it doesnt matter much what hardware or sofware you want to use, an audio interface is an audio interface.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 13, 2018, 09:59:08 PM
You are right. Using my LaCie USB-Speakers do not solve the Audio-Problem because they are 100% loud and can not be regulated through the pro-keyboard-buttons, that's (really) bad :(
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 15, 2018, 08:22:20 AM
LaCie also produced a firewire speaker-set, but I think it will be the same. 100% loud.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 15, 2018, 11:09:06 AM
if you want to use speakers with a mini, they should have a volume control. :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: drzeissler on May 15, 2018, 01:21:42 PM
if you want to use speakers with a mini, they should have a volume control. :)

currently yes, any chance of fixing that?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 15, 2018, 07:01:32 PM
yes, get some with volume control. :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on May 15, 2018, 10:32:12 PM
I’m actually a bit lost with it. If anyone wants to have their own look at the Apple Audio Extension, I’d be happy to help. Attached to a previous post is a version of the extension with all the PEF binaries moves to resources. This might make it a bit easier to pull apart.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: widdly on May 17, 2018, 05:51:37 PM
I've got a G4 Mac Mini on the way and I'm pretty keen to get OS9 on to it. 

I'm curious about the Instant DAW CD too.  I assume that this wont work for the Mini since the OS is modified and the Instant DAW restores a different OS version.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: Daniel on May 17, 2018, 06:33:44 PM
That is correct. The Instant DAW CD does not have the Mac OS ROM file needed to boot on the Mini.

If you particularly wanted the Instant DAW on the Mini, you could install the Mini CD on a temporary partition, insert the DAW CD (not booting off of it) to use Apple Software Restore to put Instant DAW on the main partition, then copy the Mac OS ROM file (and a few others) to the DAW System Folder from the Mini System Folder. Then, the DAW partition would be bootable.

Maybe someone will whip up a CD so you don't have to do System Folder brain surgery to get Instant DAW on a Mini.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: IIO on May 18, 2018, 07:09:16 AM
I've got a G4 Mac Mini on the way and I'm pretty keen to get OS9 on to it. 

I'm curious about the Instant DAW CD too.  I assume that this wont work for the Mini since the OS is modified and the Instant DAW restores a different OS version.  Is that correct?

you´d neeed 2 optical drives, then it should be doable without too much hassle.

boot from the mini CD and initialize the HD from there, then mirror the disk with the instant daw installer CD, then replace the modified components for the mini (or better replace the system folder) with the one from the mini CD.



Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: DieHard on May 18, 2018, 08:26:07 AM
That is correct. The Instant DAW CD does not have the Mac OS ROM file needed to boot on the Mini.

If you particularly wanted the Instant DAW on the Mini, you could install the Mini CD on a temporary partition, insert the DAW CD (not booting off of it) to use Apple Software Restore to put Instant DAW on the main partition, then copy the Mac OS ROM file (and a few others) to the DAW System Folder from the Mini System Folder. Then, the DAW partition would be bootable.

Maybe someone will whip up a CD so you don't have to do System Folder brain surgery to get Instant DAW on a Mini.

Well the Instant DAW would require too many CDs; the way I installed it on the Mini (assumes you have 2 macs) was...
1) Boot the Mini in target mode
2) Connect to a working OS 9 unit that has:
     a) instant DAW files already downloaded on it
     b) The famous Ross mini CD image mounted on desktop
3) Run instant DAW and pick the mini's hard drive (connected via "target mode" as an external HD) as the destination drive
4) remove the newly created "multi-processing folder" under the extensions on the mini
5) copy from the Ross image to the mini hd:
     a) the ROM file
     b) any ATI extensions (delete the current ATI extensions on the mini)

Now you can boot to mini, but remove the ASIO drivers (BEFORE you attempt to launch Cubase) on the mini under the Cubase/ASIO and install firewire ASIO or USB ASIO for a working interface under OS 9, the stock system sound ASIO drivers will lock up Cubase and they are unusable

Lastly, if you just have the mini only: (no other OS 9 unit)
1) make 2 partitions
2) Install ROSS CD on Partition 2
3) Boot to partition 2 and follow the instructions above to create the instant DAW on the first partition
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on May 19, 2018, 02:50:17 AM
Diehard, if you use the v7 CD (at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RDrQY3bUePLRWoDQmqWNEc1Uf8ooh-Kd/view?usp=sharing [updated 19th may 2018] ) the multiprocessing folder does not need to be removed, just also make sure to copy Sleeper control strip, Sleeper control panel, and sleeper scripting addition over as well as the ROM and ATI extensions, if you are copying them to the instant DAW.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: IIO on May 19, 2018, 09:51:20 AM
Now you can boot to mini, but remove the ASIO drivers

now that you mention it, yeah, that is anaother trap on the mini, ASIO soundmanager is often selected as default. :)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: IIO on May 20, 2018, 10:43:24 AM

would you guys help me to assemble an overview of the modified files of the mini CD.

/Mac OS ROM

Changes: ...
Reason for  these Changes: ...
Code: ... (if applicable)

/Prefrerences/WeatherPrefs.txt

Changes: ...
Reason for these Changes: ...
Code: ... (if applicable)

i know that most of it is in the forums, but mabye we can first add what someone knows by heart already.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on May 20, 2018, 11:07:29 AM
For v7 of the Mac mini OS 9, not v5, I can think of...

Most extensions are CPU 5.9, one is Z-5.6, and the ROM is 5.4

Modified files:
System Folder:Mac OS ROM
Changes: Edits/Patches to various parts
Reason for Changes: Allow the Mac mini G4 to boot Mac OS 9
Version: 9.6.1, CPU Software 5.4.

System Folder:Extensions:ATI*
Changes: Patched/Edited ATI extensions.
Reason for Changes: Enables Hardware/3d/2d acceleration and probably other graphics related things


Removed files:
System Folder:Control Panels:Energy Saver
Reason for removal: Replaced by Sleeper.

System Folder:Control Strip Modules:Energy Settings
Reason for removal: Replaced by Sleeper Strip.


Added files:
System Folder:Control Panels:Sleeper
Reason for adding: Only sends display and hard disk to sleep, when told to sleep, and not the CPU. (get's rid of not waking up issue)

System Folder:Control Strip Modules:Sleeper Strip
Reason for adding: Replaces the Energy Settings strip, more or less same functions, but works with the Sleeper control panel

System Folder:Scripting Additions:Sleeper osax
Reason for adding: Think this works with Apple Script to work with the Sleeper Control Panel functions


Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: DieHard on May 20, 2018, 12:21:27 PM
Ok I see now a bit but you know the latest mac mini rom file works with the Multiprocessing folder, with Apple CPU Plugins right?

I did not remember that so I that step is not necessary now, I will dive back into the mini next weekend and do more real-world testing with the new ROM
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on May 20, 2018, 12:25:19 PM
Yes you should definitely keep the Multiprocessing folder in, as the fans run much quieter, and cooler, and with the Sleeper control panel & strip & addition replacing Energy Saver ones, we don't have the "doesn't wake up from sleep" problem. All this new stuff is built into the v7 CD.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: DieHard on May 20, 2018, 12:28:03 PM
Ross,

that breakdown is awesome !  But we should include and actual file listing (with locations to copy to) and SIT archive and put it in the download folder for v7 mac mini ISO, this will be for those who need to "manually" drag the files if they are using an different ASR like the "Instant DAW" or if they are transferring a Fully working OS9 Setup from another G4 with all applications and preferences.

Thanks for all the hard work compiling stuff :)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: RossDarker on May 20, 2018, 12:30:55 PM
10 minutes, I'll have the Stuffit Archive with the v7 stuff in attached.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 20, 2018, 01:35:48 PM
New Version 7 CD ISO available !

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4365.0.html

Also, has the optional Stuffit archive with all modified files for those that have to modify an existing Setup and do NOT want to install from scratch
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 20, 2018, 01:55:00 PM
That's great. Also Mac Torrent is in CD Extras now. By the way when I downloaded the v7 Items.sit, some files had lost their icons, but they still open and function as they should! Do you notice this??
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 20, 2018, 02:16:51 PM
...did someone remove the desktop DB using toast? :)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported Hardware, "The state Of the art".
Post by: IIO on May 20, 2018, 02:28:22 PM
But we should include and actual file listing (with locations to copy to)

yes please, the actual filenames (of the graphics driver files) will enable third parties to do any additional modification to the installation process they wish.

maybe we find some interesting news ways for organizings things.

thats why i was suggesting the use of showy ID -16455 icons for the modified files.

(otoh, when i think about it, not everyone was using a "universal" OS9 before on his other machine, and therefore doesnt have the finder and CPU software version required, right? so you would always "update" a mini system with your custom stuff - and never the other way round.)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 20, 2018, 03:49:26 PM
__________
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 20, 2018, 04:47:46 PM
mini OS v7.1

when i just copy the system folder to a preexisting OS9ified mini in order to update the machine from the old system to the new

1. usb overdrive is in extras, but it is already installed, too. (there is a third copy of usb overdrive in the trash of the CD)

2. i am getting the system 6 / floppy style "please insert the disk:" error message after startup. this is permanent. (how to remove it?)

3. the applemenu doesnt look like it looks after a regular install (mainly /controlpanels is missing and the ASR app is present. that is probably unavoidable for a copy of the CD boot folder, just saying :) )

4. i did extensive tests on 2 minis with the new sleep software - it seems to work great. i have not tested anything in the fields of intereferences when the apple energy saver is also active. when it does not work 100% anyway, should we remove it completely? (panels off folder)

...

someone should contact allesandro and ask if we can register usboverdrive already on the CD.

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 20, 2018, 11:27:05 PM
Ah I see I forgot to empty the trash probably when fixing some CD extras. Run the USB overdrive installer when you are booted off the hard disk. Also when it says insert the disk it is probably because the startup items aliases are messed up. When you eject the CD does the apple menu look normal again? Tell you what when I get home I'll work on 7.2.

110, are you copying over the right System Folder? The one just there on the CD has USB overdrive in, and the apple menu is only for tools you need from the CD, but the one from the Macintosh HD image is a completely normal apple menu and does not have usb overdrive installed.

Also I will make the new SIT archive so it contains a disk image so the desktop file will be on there.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 07:27:35 AM
110, are you copying over the right System Folder?

no, i am not.

but that was intentionally, just to see what happens.

is it possible to make the boot system folder invisible? it is the first one the user sees.

.

p.s. you´re right, it is the aliases in /startup items, i wasnt thinking about that.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 21, 2018, 07:44:21 AM
But the add ons to get the Mac mini running are in the separate SIT archive, it's easier than downloading thr whole ISO if you are using a current system. If you use the ISO, only use ASR because it is not supposed to be used by manually copying things.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 07:53:38 AM
ASR is great, i dont question the method. i was thinking about this:

the current method to update a mac mini OS without erasing the volume is:

- remove the system file from the system folder
 - delete the system folder from HD
 - mount and open the ASR image file from the CD
 - copy the system folder from the CD to your HD.


can´t this be automated with a an applescript somehow?

it would have to prompt the user with a query/opendialog for which system folder he would like to update (the path must be clear, among other reasons because there could be more than 1 systee moflder on the mini), then perform the above jobs (while making sure that the newly created system folder is blessed, not that applescript somehow brakes this. when you copy manually it is no problem) - and then afterwards do an automatic reboot or only leave one option for the user to reboot now.

then the CD would have an "update my system" option besides the ASR installation method - while using the same files from the disc copy document.

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 21, 2018, 08:02:43 AM
I guess but adding the new system folder would get rid of any extensions, prefs, panels and other configurations. If that is replacing the whole current one. It takes less time to only download the SIT archive, than the whole new CD, and burning it to use another disc.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 08:06:35 AM
yeah of course. solving one problem always causes another.

i thought it could be less work for you to not have to build a parallel "updater" release.

a possible v8 updater might have to be support updating v5 as well as v7 and i dont think you want to assemble "combo updater" sits :D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 21, 2018, 08:14:53 AM
If I were to make the updater with Apple Script, to place the files and remove files into/from current locations, I run in to problems. If I tell Apple Script to move the Multiprocessor folder into extensions, if it already exists, the rest of the script is stopped. To prevent this you would delete the Multiprocessing folder, but if it tries to delete it, and it's not there, then the script will fail. I need something like:

if System Folder:Extensions:Multiprocessing exists then
    do nothing
else
   move Multiprocessing folder into System Folder:Extensions
end if

I think there is a "try" isn't there? Like:
try move Multiprocessing into System Folder:Extrensions
on error, leave it in there
on success, move it in there
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
hm, and with vise installer maker it is even more complicated (i really hate building installers)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 21, 2018, 08:51:08 AM
Got it! I'll start working on an updater now.

tell application "Finder"
   try
      select folder "Multiprocessing" of folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of startup disk
      delete selection
      display dialog "Multiprocessing Moved to Trash" buttons {"Continue"}
   on error
      display dialog "Multiprocessing does not exist!" buttons {"Continue"}
   end try
end tell

obviously in the real I would not make it so the user has to click continue, this was just to see which function it would carry out in which situation.

I can use a bunch of these, obviously with different functions, to carry out, and even combo updates. Also, this would only work if you are started up off the system you want to update. So is there a way I can list all the disks mounted, and the user can choose which to update?

And when all files are in the right place:

tell application "Finder"
   display dialog "Successfully updated to V7!" buttons {"Restart"}
   restart
end tell

This looks like...
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2408.0;attach=5266;image)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 21, 2018, 09:48:55 AM
I think you guys are way over thinking this, all we need is...

1) The Bootable ISO (Version 7) for those who have never installed Mac OS 9.2.2 on a mac mini and will wipe out the drive

- OR -

2) The Sit File for those that want to patch their favorite OS 9 configuration and then copy it to a mini; it should contain all the documentation, and CURRENT files (Extensions,drivers, and ROM) needed to modify and existing OS 9.2.2 System folder.  The user's of SIT file must at least have the basic knowledge of how to copy files around... no scripts needed :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 10:05:39 AM
Also, this would only work if you are started up off the system you want to update.

thats true and that was my idea.

i have not yet found an absolute solution for that social problem.

generally, if someone has OS9 on his mini, he will know that and will just turn his computer on.

but will everyone be aware of the fact that a new CD release also contains an updater?

in modern OS´s you download the updates off the internet, either as installer app or directly online. putting an OS update on an installer CD in the fashion of OSX would be a bit overkill for this project.

something which requries to choose from 2 installation versions, full and update, by doubleclicking the one or other item is a fair compromise.

i wish i could contribute but my applescript skills are in the range of my open firmware skills. :)

p.s. if ou dont get the checksumming to skip by scripting, i suggest having a loop which checks if the volume is present about every 4 or 5 seconds and wait until it returns true. making the path available to finder should be the last of all processes when mountung afaik.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 10:07:00 AM
well, DH, in 2020 we want to have a DVD which automatically boots and installs OS9 for all machines, dont we.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 21, 2018, 10:13:27 AM
In the SIT archive, I will put an updater app. This is for updating from any version of the Mac mini OS 9 to v7. For those who want to use the Instant DAW, you do not first run the updater, but simply edit the apple script, and change the first line, which there will be a variable called TARGET, which by default is set to "startup disk", (this makes it so the target is which ever you are booted from.) You can change TARGET variable to equal the name of any disk mounted, and then save it, then the when you run the updater, it will modify that specific disk, so it runs on the mini. How that sound?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 10:40:47 AM
why not get the path with a dialog or by drag and drop? if you need to edit it, it wont work from a write protected volume.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 21, 2018, 12:57:52 PM
Here is the script so far, it works great, you guys can't run it yet because you need the disk image I have made that contains all the updater files (as the name of the disk "v7 items" is required), but here is the script. (By the way it uses a dialogue box to get what disk you want to update). It first tests if the disk you specify is read only, contains Mac OS 9, and if a disk even exists with the specified name. Also so far only does the "Sleeper" related things, Multiprocessing folder and 1 ATI extension, will work more on this tommorrow:

display dialog "Enter the name of disk you wish to update, exactly how it appears on the desktop:" default answer "" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
set TARGET_DISK to text returned of result
tell application "Finder"
   try
      select item "test file" of folder "Resources" of disk "v7 Items"
      copy selection to folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      select item "test file" of folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      delete selection
      display dialog "Update will perform on the disk " & TARGET_DISK & "!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      try
         select folder "Multiprocessing" of folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
         delete selection
         display dialog "Multiprocessing folder exists, replacing with new one...!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      on error
         display dialog "Multiprocessing does not exist, adding in new one...!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      end try
      select folder "Multiprocessing" of folder "Resources" of disk "v7 Items"
      copy selection to folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      try
         select item "Energy Saver" of folder "Control Panels" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
         delete selection
         display dialog "Energy Saver existed, deleting...!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      on error
         display dialog "Energy Saver does not exist, adding in Sleeper!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      end try
      try
         select item "Sleeper" of folder "Control Panels" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
         display dialog "Sleeper already exists, does not need adding in!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      on error
         display dialog "Sleeper getting added..." buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
         select item "Sleeper" of folder "Resources" of disk "v7 Items"
         copy selection to folder "Control Panels" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      end try
      try
         select item "Energy Settings" of folder "Control Strip Modules" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
         delete selection
         display dialog "Energy Settings Strip Module exists, deleting...!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      on error
         display dialog "Energy Settings Strip Module does not exist, adding in Sleeper Module!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      end try
      try
         select item "Sleeper Strip" of folder "Control Strip Modules" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
         display dialog "Sleeper Module already exists, does not need adding in!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      on error
         display dialog "Sleeper Module getting added..." buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
         select item "Sleeper Strip" of folder "Resources" of disk "v7 Items"
         copy selection to folder "Control Strip Modules" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      end try
      try
         select item "Sleeper osax" of folder "Scripting Additions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
         display dialog "Sleeper osax, already exists, does not need adding in!" buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
      on error
         display dialog "Sleeper osax, does not exist, adding it in..." buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
         select item "Sleeper osax" of folder "Resources" of disk "v7 Items"
         copy selection to folder "Scripting Additions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      end try
      try
         select item "ATI 3D Accelerator" of folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
         display dialog "ATI 3D Accelerator exists, updating it..." buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
         delete selection
         select item "ATI 3D Accelerator" of folder "ATI" of folder "Resources" of disk "v7 Items"
         copy selection to folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      on error
         display dialog "ATI 3D Accelerator does not exist, adding it in..." buttons {"Continue"} default button "Continue"
         select item "ATI 3D Accelerator" of folder "ATI" of folder "Resources" of disk "v7 Items"
         copy selection to folder "Extensions" of folder "System Folder" of disk TARGET_DISK
      end try
      display dialog "Successfully updated " & TARGET_DISK & " to V7!" buttons {"Restart"} default button "Restart"
      restart
   on error
      display dialog "The disk named " & TARGET_DISK & ", either does not have Mac OS 9 on, does not exist, or is read only!" buttons {"Cancel Update"} default button "Cancel Update"
   end try
end tell
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: music skidder on May 21, 2018, 01:53:54 PM
Hello all, trying to follow this. I am not a real code guy but clever! I have a Mini 1.5 and trying to install os9 for Studio Vision projects.

My Mac is available if you need for me to beta anything!

Cheers...
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 21, 2018, 03:34:36 PM
i see you are driving it even further and make it a generic file merger util, thats great :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 22, 2018, 11:25:46 AM
New SIT archive, contains updater app, I made in apple script. You should put this in the Mac mini download folder Diehard. This updates ANY disk you specify. The disk you update needs to have Mac OS 9 on, in any configuration. This app makes it run on a Mac mini, and has all the latest stuff (v7), whilst keeping the rest of the System Folder and the hard disk of the existing disk.

little demo of me updating from a v5 install to v7...
https://youtu.be/BHqGZATBLBk

Attached is the SIT.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 22, 2018, 07:00:26 PM
(https://cdn.instructables.com/FBR/WYRZ/GB5HE3FX/FBRWYRZGB5HE3FX.LARGE.gif)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: widdly on May 23, 2018, 02:50:49 AM
My Mac mini 1.25 arrived last night and is running OS9 like a champ.  Thanks everyone for their hard work.   :D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 23, 2018, 11:50:31 AM
New SIT archive, contains updater app, I made in apple script. You should put this in the Mac mini download folder Diehard. This updates ANY disk you specify. The disk you update needs to have Mac OS 9 on, in any configuration. This app makes it run on a Mac mini, and has all the latest stuff (v7), whilst keeping the rest of the System Folder and the hard disk of the existing disk.

little demo of me updating from a v5 install to v7...
https://youtu.be/BHqGZATBLBk

Attached is the SIT.

Diehard sips his coffee... then reads this... then realizes that some sacrifice so much to make life easy for others (or at least for those who own a mac mini)... thank you Ross, from the bottom of my cold, black heart
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: music skidder on May 23, 2018, 04:11:19 PM
Yup, up and running with v7! 👍

Effortless!,,

Next was to dual boot with tiger. What a mess! Have to use option key to recognize 9 build...

Should have stayed with 9solo.

Don’t know it Keyspan serial adaptor will work for Opcode Studio 4. Getting glitchy with USB in the v7.

Maybe a USB audio interface will fix sound control?

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on May 23, 2018, 07:57:29 PM
well Done RossDarker  ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on May 25, 2018, 12:45:20 AM
Expect me to be a bit quiet for a while. I haven't had much luck troubleshooting the minor problems with the mini, so I'd rather leave these to others.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 25, 2018, 10:12:31 PM
did some more test including one unintended error and found something funny.

i have applied the updater script to my personal OS9 folder from my main mac again, but this time on the mini itself.

in my personal OS9 folder things like quicktime and ATI are not at their default path; i removed them out of their folder.

the updater script seems to ignore the missing path at /extensions/ATI/ and just didnt copy the minified ATI files.

so, after rebooting into the new system, as exspected, the monitor went black right after the extensions finished loading.

but now to what is questionable. :)

to fix the wrong ATI drivers i booted into the vanilla mini OS, added the minified drivers to the new system folder, and booted into the new system.

now the monitor works in the new system - but the 2D accelleration is gone.

okay, maybe another user error i thought, and bootet back to the vanilla mini OS.

after the desktop showed up, the mouse now blinks and updates its position only every 2 seconds. finder windows take ages to draw and are almost inaccessible. when moving the mouse over a menubar menu, inside the opened menu the mouse speed is back to normal, out again over the desktop, and it runs in 0.5 "FPS" mode again.

only after another reboot the vanilla OS is now back again to normal operation.

regarding the new OS i have no idea what is wrong there which prevents proper 2d accelleration...

...


then i was playing a bit with the startup disk issue on a dual boot mini.

if you have 2 volumes on the internal HD and both have a Mac OS 9 folder, you can not boot from the second one via controlpanel, you must always use the boot manager, just as with an OSX/OS9 dual boot install.

the weird thing is, when you only have one system folder on the (technically) second partition (and no system on the first partition), THIS is found...



Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 26, 2018, 02:43:31 AM
110, if you are using the UNFINISHED and incomplete script from post #627 your description makes sense, do NOT use that, use the one from #630 as that 100% works, and is finished. If you are using the one from #630, all I can say is that you are wrong and that the updater DOES work. The amount of times I tested it, made sure that it copies everything over to make it v7. If it TOLD you to restart, then it will have definately copied EVERYTHING required, including ATI extensions. If it said at any point your disk does not contain Mac OS 9, then that means it did not work.  If it TELLS you to restart, then go and click the restart button. If it does not, then don't restart manually. It just does work there is no reason why it does not work. Again, if you are running the APPLICATION from the DISK IMAGE from post #630, it 100% works.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 26, 2018, 03:59:21 PM
i used the right one.

it turned out that you can make the installation fail when you try to hit that little triangle shaped button to see "more" in the "copying files" dialog window.

i am always pushing the limits, even where it does make any sense. :D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 26, 2018, 04:06:05 PM
Okay, I see maybe because it doesn't do all the files at the same time (wouldn't be possible the way it checks if the file exists already), so when you expand one it finishes it then moves on to the next file. But yeah at the end of the updater when it briefly opens the system folder then closes it, on the target disk, this is the way I got the system folder to become blessed, which was handy.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 26, 2018, 04:52:48 PM
yeah, i noticed that. even if there would be a specific applescript command it would be best do to do it like this.

i just tried to modify a german 9.2.2. it boots. but i dont do any deeper tests because i dont really care.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: solderwire on May 26, 2018, 09:59:04 PM
yeah, i noticed that. even if there would be a specific applescript command it would be best do to do it like this.

i just tried to modify a german 9.2.2. it boots. but i dont do any deeper tests because i dont really care.
I modified a Simplified Chinese 9.2.2, now it works well on my mini. I replaced the ROM, graphics, FireWire and USB drivers using the drivers from the RossDarker's mini CD. You have to replace the Apple Enet extension too, otherwise you will have a wrong IP address.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 27, 2018, 07:24:58 AM
FireWire and USB drivers using the drivers from the RossDarker's mini CD. You have to replace the Apple Enet extension too, otherwise you will have a wrong IP address.

that iss releated to the "CPU software" version, right? so a localized latest-CPU-version would do, too?

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: solderwire on May 28, 2018, 08:42:16 AM
FireWire and USB drivers using the drivers from the RossDarker's mini CD. You have to replace the Apple Enet extension too, otherwise you will have a wrong IP address.

that iss releated to the "CPU software" version, right? so a localized latest-CPU-version would do, too?
I think it will work properly. You're lucky because you can get a localized 9.2.2 with latest CPU SW... Chinese version of 9.2.2 install/restore CDs with ROM version higher than 9.0.1 are lost...
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on May 28, 2018, 09:20:37 AM
what do u mean they are lost? lost to some maybe but not everyone
the chinese installers should be part of the "mac os anthology"
that you can find on the net
https://www.macintoshrepository.org/81-mac-os-anthology-1999-2000-2001-
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 29, 2018, 06:45:11 AM
i am not sure what the OS9General.dmg of a chinese retail OSX contains. :) but you could fill the missing gaps with the US versions, and in cases where the filename matters (probably not for networtk drivers) eventually just rename them to your language.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: solderwire on May 29, 2018, 10:27:52 AM
what do u mean they are lost? lost to some maybe but not everyone
the chinese installers should be part of the "mac os anthology"
that you can find on the net
https://www.macintoshrepository.org/81-mac-os-anthology-1999-2000-2001-
The Anthology is still incomplete. For example, the Chinese SSW 7.0 is missing, and the Chinese Mac OS 8.1 refuses to boot on 68k Machines, it says it is PowerPC-specific.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on May 29, 2018, 11:32:02 PM
seriously? theres so many languages.. i cant see how they would skip chinese when theres so many chinese people in the world
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on May 30, 2018, 01:20:53 AM
Got a new ISO guys, still called v7, if you are already running v7, don't bother with this one as it is an update to the CD only, which fixed a few errors, such as Bugdom and Classilla not being able to copy over, and I have also added a couple icons onto some folders on the CD. Base system is same as before, but a much better CD than the last one.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JtsVSVlWDOAjZBeZnVOP3chdS3spJzLf/view?usp=sharing

Latest Version of Mac mini Full Version7 ISO Here and optional SIT Archive for those who want to manually patch a current OS 9 system:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4365.0.html
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on May 30, 2018, 06:48:58 AM
Anyone have QuickbenchX, I'm checking Firewire throughput on the Mini under OS9 vs OS X?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on May 31, 2018, 01:45:53 PM
Boy, I must be a thread killer, first I completely killed the VC section, now I'm killing this one. :P
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Hyram on June 06, 2018, 11:35:37 AM
Just reporting in to, well, report in that I've been successful with my G4 1.42 darling!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/pljpc8ckkno8no9/Mini_G4_OS9.jpg)

She's a stock first-run 1.42, except the drive is a 32 GB mSATA in a conversion enclosure I nabbed from fleabay a while ago for under $10, and it makes this little lunchbox run super-slick.

Kudos to all contributors!

I'll be digging through my archives to see what other useful goodies I can add ... fairly certain I have a copy of os9vnc and Vine around that'd work a treat, a few small but eminently useful CDEVs & INITs ... I'll keep everyone posted with what I find works.

BTW, why does it think it is a G4 Cube? Wouldn't it be a nice touch to hack that in somewhere? :)


H
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 06, 2018, 12:31:12 PM
I think it's a G4 Cube in System Profiler because when it was set to Mac mini, I believe it would shut down randomly, maybe because it thought it was an iBook (?)

By the way, you did use Apple Software Restore app from the CD to install right? I'm guessing you did that then copied the whole CD Extras folder and the Read Me from the CD right? If you didn't use Apple Software Restore, use that as that will give you a complete folder. But you probably did use Apple Software Restore so it's fine.

It's good to see.
Title: Mac mini G4 mSATA
Post by: FdB on June 06, 2018, 02:02:46 PM
Whaaaat?

An mSATA in a Mac Mini! WOWZA.
 
8) 8) 8)
Would REALLY like to know which mSATA & conversion enclosure… and what your Read/Write stats are?

And no darth, ya didn’t kill the thread. Any luck with the FW QuickBench results? (MacBench too?)

WELCOME HYRAM!

…and 1GB DDR 400 CL3 / ASR reports as PC133 CL3?
Title: Re: Mac mini G4 mSATA
Post by: Hyram on June 06, 2018, 03:37:14 PM
I think it's a G4 Cube in System Profiler because when it was set to Mac mini, I believe it would shut down randomly, maybe because it thought it was an iBook

Wuh-eeeeeird.

Quote
By the way, you did use Apple Software Restore app from the CD to install right? I'm guessing you did that then copied the whole CD Extras folder and the Read Me from the CD right?

Right on all counts.

Would REALLY like to know which mSATA & conversion enclosure

I forget the model-number of the mSATA drive, but its an older Samsung. I've had excellent success SSDifying my old lovelies with this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/381616689178

The only drawback I've encountered with it is the fact its plastic case is 9.5mm thick, so for a couple of laptops I've had to grind it back with sandpaper until it fits a tight 9mm bay.

Quote
… and what your Read/Write stats are?

Cut me some slack boyo, this is a newborn sucking at the teat!  :P  I never really got into stats or worried about speed when pre-X was my daily driver, what tool(s) would you suggest?

Quote
WELCOME HYRAM!

Graci!

Quote
…and 1GB DDR 400 CL3 / ASR reports as PC133 CL3?

I admit that's a smidge confusing :)

All in all its a sterling effort, but t'would be nice ice if Profiler actually told the truth, wot? How else are we going to brag about our success! :P


H
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 06, 2018, 05:17:26 PM
Apologies for any un-intended pressure(s).

Currently weighing performance/choice/costs of DOM vs. mSATA and an Ableconn “sled” adapter. Concerns about possible added *heat from enclosures vs. the open “sleds” and the solo mini fan. See: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4435.0.html? (come on over) for more background info. (I’ve ordered the Zheino 120GB - maybe overkill and the Ableconn.)

*Thinking that the open sled will dissipate any possible added heat, mo’ bettah?

There was a somewhat informal poll here (fairly recent) concerning just what Model name should be used. (Read back, this thread, I think.) Also, maybe Ross meant to say “if” it was set to “Mac mini” › then "confused" random shut downs might occur?

Probably will run MacBench 3.0 http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macbench-30 on the 1.5 GHz mini here before… and after the install of the Zheino. AND… check operating temps before and after the install.

Now I’ll need to check/research which chipset your adapter uses. Marvell or the JM20330?

$7.56 for your adapter vs. $28.99 for the Ableconn (Marvell chipset). Ninester’s Aneew adapter (with JM20330 chipset) came in @ $11.49.

OS X partition reports 1GB RAM... correctly.

Personally, I’d like the Profiler to note mine as “Godzilla”! ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 06, 2018, 05:44:30 PM
Ahhh, one can see the JM20330 chip in the close-up image on your eBay link.
Sales of sandpaper rises.
Title: Re: Mac mini G4 mSATA
Post by: IIO on June 06, 2018, 07:13:41 PM
I think it's a G4 Cube in System Profiler because when it was set to Mac mini, I believe it would shut down randomly, maybe because it thought it was an iBook

Wuh-eeeeeird.

gestalt pro: can even report what it would like to be.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 07, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
This is an explanation from a few weeks back:
PS why does ELN make the ROM change the Compatibility and Model properties to PowerMac5,1? I would personally just leave it be as PowerMac10,1... but im curious why he changes it to that of the Cube?

  The issue that arose on my Mini at random, and presumably would have on everyone else's eventually, was that OS 9 believed the Mini was an iBook and would automatically shut down to protect itself when it erroneously 'detected' the presence of a depleted battery and thinking it was running only on battery.  This may have been partially related to the hacked handling of the PMU, which was required to get this machine going in the first place, but as it stood would have made further testing next to impossible.  The simplest fix for now was to force the machine model to be detected as a non-portable type, which ELN selected to be the Cube as cute and mildly appropriate designation - it's the most similar 'flavor' of machine type/packaging, you might say a 'baby cube'/'son of a cube'/cube junior'.

  When the underlying issues get figured out, sure, it would be lovely to have the OS display a proper identity for the PowerMac10,1.  That would likely require more complex changes to prevent the 'portable phantom battery' behavior from happening, but for now we're served sufficiently well with the "Cube" designation for the sake of working through the rest of the major fixes we need to accomplish (minor remaining video bugs, correct sound device handling in control panel, better PMU support).  To some extent the Mini is a learning exercise that will help with compatibility fixes on other machines too, so the more stable a test bed right now, the better.

I actually got the random shutdown back in March too, when using the older ROMs.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on June 07, 2018, 05:13:59 PM
MacOS Plus was spot on there.

I got the mini booting by filling the ROM with log spam and diving into those calls that would crash the machine. In that process I managed to fix two major incompatibilities:

More airy-fairy stuff, like subtle hardware incompatibility, is still beyond my ability to debug. I can’t possibly track down all code that special-cases based on machine ID, so for now I have just chosen something roughly appropriate-looking. (I am strongly considering creating a brand-new machine ID to clear out the cobwebs.)

I do have a pretty decent build system that I am more than happy to share, to help with, or just to run on request. It is useful even just to make changes to the Open Firmware script a la iMic. So if anyone on the board wants to tinker but needs help getting started — or if they know someone who might — then get in touch!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Ninester on June 07, 2018, 08:49:25 PM
Nice! My flea bay mini 1.43 – 512Mb ram – 80GB Seagate made it in yesterday. Installed OS9 with two partitions, 9 in one, Tiger in the other partition mainly for housekeeping.

Using M$ wired mouse and dell keyboard no issues, old powered speakers for sound.

As noted always wants to boot into Tiger unless I use the option key.  OS9 startup utility sees Tiger, Tiger does not see OS9 in the start up utility.

Time is being offset +5 hours when booting back into OS 9 from Tiger. Quickly reset using time sever. Lol, erase Tiger, should fix all the niggles.

I copied the completely installed OS 9 folder to a backup drive. Would there be any issues to drag and drop if I hose OS9?  Will the drive folder always to remain named “Macintosh HD”?

Anyway, thanks to all for your hard work!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: steppentier on June 10, 2018, 03:42:49 AM
Booting OS9 from Firewire drive isn't working, right?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 10, 2018, 03:46:33 AM
I boot from FireWire drives a lot actually, make sure the partition is not too big, and you definitely got the OS 9 drivers on the whole disk.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: steppentier on June 10, 2018, 04:02:21 AM
Strange thing. I'm plugged same FW drive to Cube G4 (not booting from that, only mounted) and ejected.
After that, plugged again to mac-mini with v7 patched OS9 and on boot screen i can select now the external FW drive OS9 partition (before that it was invisible in boot screen).
Booting works fine now and i'm happy :)

I had problems with another FW case, but with this one, OS9 booting was not working on Cube G4 too.
So, maybe it must reconfig it with Oxford update tool (java app).
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 10, 2018, 12:02:35 PM
I've often had FireWire drivers not showing when holding down the option key. I find the way around is to either press the "Reload" button, turn the drive off or on again, or to restart with it on/off then turn it on if it was off. With my LaCie disk, it's always nice when I press the reload button, and I see the light on the front start flashing rapidly and hear the disk spin up, then it shows up. I guess it's luck. I find selecting the startup disk from OS 9 an easier way, that's if you have it available of course.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 10, 2018, 12:06:28 PM
About firewire, anyone know which extensions or what's required to format a FW drive from the Mac mini CD, not the installed OS, but from the live CD. Like when you open drive setup, FW disks are <not supported>, but from within the OS you can do what you want with them in drive setup.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 10, 2018, 12:45:07 PM
About firewire, anyone know which extensions or what's required to format a FW drive from the Mac mini CD, not the installed OS, but from the live CD. Like when you open drive setup, FW disks are <not supported>, but from within the OS you can do what you want with them in drive setup.

i never noticed that this doesnt work from a CD (how would i).  maybe just a missing extension?

otherwise what about copying drive setup to the freshly formatted internal HD and run it from there?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 10, 2018, 12:46:46 PM
Wait a second it turns out it it is <not supported> in the OS from hard disk as well, on the Mac mini at least. I can use drive setup on FW drives from my Titanium PowerBook, but not the Mac mini, so maybe it's hardware.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 10, 2018, 12:55:13 PM
you tried that with a drive with OS9 drivers already installed?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 10, 2018, 01:09:24 PM
Yeah it's the same disk from both machines, OS 9 drivers present, as sometimes I startup from the disk.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on June 10, 2018, 09:08:52 PM
As Mactron Mentioned (see the below link), you have to use a slightly older version of drive setup to partition/format FW drives, the 2.1 version in 9.2.2 is total crap when it comes to FW drives

Info Here
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4154.msg28836.html#msg28836
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 11, 2018, 08:26:42 AM
Diehard, I did actually include both versions of drive setup on the Mac mini CD (1.9.2 and 2.1), the one that opens when you startup is 2.1, but 1.9.2 is found in:

Mac mini OS 9 CD:Applications:Drive Setup 1.9.2

And that is cool, with 1.9.2, I can initialise FW disks from the Mac mini.

Although, the version of drive setup on my Titanium PowerBook is v2.1, and that can format FW drives, but only on the ti and not the mini. (don't have any other os 9 machines to test)

But for now then if you need to restore the Mac mini System onto a FW disk, from the Mac mini, you need to use Drive Setup 1.9.2 in the Applications folder in the CD to do it, to initialise it.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 11, 2018, 08:36:20 AM
right, that would be the next step; using an older version of drive setup.

but i wonder why things like that do sometimes work and sometimes not.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 11, 2018, 08:52:35 AM
When I had drive setup 1.9.2 open at startup, it would open it the top left, and then get covered by the read me file when that opens. With 2.1 it opens in the middle, so does not get covered, and so I decided to make it so 2.1 opens at startup instead. If I were to swap it for 1.9.2, for better Mac mini support, how would I make it open the window in the centre like in 2.1, instead of the top left?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 11, 2018, 10:05:16 AM
centering is complicatd but you can move the window by moving its WIND or DLG resources right in resdit. the possition will be s aved to all other possibly needed flags in other resources.

i am using a modified app myslef, with green background a disabled command-key for formatting in the menubar since syste 7, so i can tell by heart it has regular window resources. :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 11, 2018, 10:09:08 AM
good that i havee macos9 minis, so that i can easily look it up :D

DLOG ID 256

then in resedit: resource menu in menubar / "autoposition" / lets you center with 2 clicks.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 11, 2018, 10:11:56 AM
Cheers IIO I'll try it
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 11, 2018, 10:14:15 AM
...
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on June 11, 2018, 10:31:50 AM
Diehard, I did actually include both versions of drive setup on the Mac mini CD (1.9.2 and 2.1), the one that opens when you startup is 2.1, but 1.9.2 is found in:
Mac mini OS 9 CD:Applications:Drive Setup 1.9.2
That is great, your higher self knew it would be needed :)

And that is cool, with 1.9.2, I can initialise FW disks from the Mac mini.
M.A.R.L. Labs was right again, this makes no sense that the older version succeeds and v2.1 doen not (Fuc&ing Apple, same old shit), but it has proven to be true, this is great news for those who want to run the mini with an External FW drive, also remember, that daisy chaining off the single FW port should work !  It is critical, IMO, you power all FW devices if you attempt this and NOT draw too many amps from the little mini logic board

Although, the version of drive setup on my Titanium PowerBook is v2.1, and that can format FW drives, but only on the ti and not the mini. (don't have any other os 9 machines to test)
Really, now that is unexpected; again, makes no sense as usual, since version 2.1 does NOT work on QS Tower or MDD when wanting to partition FW drives, HDST app with work, but search the forum, I am not a fan of Hard disk speed Tools these days since it modifies the disk drivers and can sometimes cause drives that are moved to a different mac not to mount... I am guessing the TI working with drive setup 2.1 on FW drives is a real mystery; maybe the guy at apple developed it on a TI and did not test it on other units and the "bug" was never realized. IMO, it has to be a bug... unless the goal was to remove functionality from the last version 2.1
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 11, 2018, 10:40:52 AM
that is where this utility called "Tiger" comes to play; it formats your firewiredisks and even allows partitions. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on June 11, 2018, 10:51:03 AM
that is where this utility called "Tiger" comes to play; it formats your firewiredisks and even allows partitions. ;)

In OS 9 ?  Never heard of that utility
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 11, 2018, 12:04:14 PM
Guys I'll have a new ISO soon, to make Drive Setup 1.9.2 to autostart instead of 2.1, and replace the alias in apple menu items with the 1.9.2 one, also it's modded so it will come up in the centre instead of corner and not get covered, thanks to IIO's method.

And also a new SIT archive (well IMG inside the SIT archive, that will still do everything for you automatically, but there was 1 extension I missed off copying over in the last one, so this new one will add that in too).

I'll either have these today or tomorrow, just got to test it all first.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 11, 2018, 01:31:54 PM
see post below for v8.
Ignore attachment (old)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 11, 2018, 02:19:00 PM
In OS 9 ?  Never heard of that utility

nah, unfortunatley you must install it parallel to OS9 :D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 11, 2018, 02:33:09 PM
Just had a thought that I should edit the System IMG you restore, so that has Drive Setup 1.9.2 in instead of the 2.1. I will do that tomorrow, so for now don't put the ISO above on the download thing just yet as I'll have yet another one tomorrow. And maybe I will change the updater so it also puts in 1.9.2 when you use the "update to v7" app. So yeah don't put anything up that I posted above yet as I'll have newer versions tomorrow.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 11, 2018, 02:37:45 PM
And if anyone wants to try on a mac that isn't a ti or a mini, (this won't work on mac mini as the model is changed in the rom again), change your model id of your machine, in open firmware, to what the ti is (PowerBook3,5), and see if you can use Drive Setup 2.1 on FW drives. If you still can't then maybe the Ti has some unique hardware feature that will allow 2.1 to format FW drives.


Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 11, 2018, 11:20:21 PM
if 2.1 doesnt have any new features, one should ban it from everywhere.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 11, 2018, 11:47:35 PM
COMPLETELY in agreement with you there IIO!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 12, 2018, 12:10:10 PM
Just had a thought that I should edit the System IMG
you restore, so that it has Drive Setup 1.9.2 instead
of the 2.1. I will do that tomorrow.

Just reformatted the mSATA with Drive Setup 1.9.2
(booted and used from like-formatted FW drive)
and now, V.5 installer AND… 10.4 Tiger recognize
all partitions set up via 1.9.2. I await the IMG
mentioned above before re-installs of Tiger and 9.2.2.

Previous partitions set up via Tiger install disk were
not recognized by the V.5 installer.

V.5 is still the only version that allows (Option-boot
or C-boot) installs here. CDs of V.6 and V.7 do not.

I do have a pared-down, patched-up version of V.7
on the slow FW drive to boot from.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 12, 2018, 12:45:43 PM
V.5 is still the only version that allows (Option-boot
or C-boot) installs here. CDs of V.6 and V.7 do not.

what could be the reason you cant boot from a v7 CD? or have we (or actually you two) discussed that before?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 12, 2018, 01:29:49 PM
Really don't know. And we have discussed it before. I've just hacked and whacked around it.
Even now, with the Drive Setup 1.9.3 used to format, it won't (Option or C-boot) from V6 or V7 CDs.
Will see if latest version proves any different, later today perhaps?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 12, 2018, 01:30:27 PM
Have no clue why Fury can't boot the CD anything after v5 because no one else has that problem, you can use the updater to update to v8, if you still can't boot the CD, anyway got a new ISO and updater, v8 this time...

ISO (v8) : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RocAG5EizhVw_YjY4VlKi0OG4d7wQARj/view?usp=sharing

Updater app (combo update any config of OS 9 to run on Mac mini) : https://drive.google.com/file/d/17n20BaT_bLgBtsGJwS0D-6sNWJ-Kuluh/view?usp=sharing

and updater app is also attached for convenience.

v8 has improvements from v7 and below.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 12, 2018, 01:42:46 PM
Speak of da devil. Downloading V8 now (even sounds more powerful and possibly, healthier?)  ;)
I just accept the possibility that I may have to hack around a bit, always. Genetics? A curse?
Who knows? Descartes' evil genius fooling' with me (again).
Cogito ergo (raspberry sound). ::)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 12, 2018, 02:49:35 PM
Answer: D. None of the above.

Operator error. Doing it wrong in El Crapitan 10.11.6 ...since v.6.

V8 now installing after Option-booting the CD.

My apologies. I am quite verily ashamed. :(
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 12, 2018, 03:28:22 PM
Well that's good to know you got it working.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on June 13, 2018, 02:27:14 AM

Pictures 1 to 7 MacBench 3 results

Picture 8 and 10 (no 9) MacBench 5

Please, someone with a fast Mini, tell me if  my 17" PB machine is Faster (CPU/FPU/Graphics) than yours 1.x machine due to the 7448 and the L3 cache. Take account that I run the tests at native 1440x900 resolution.

Mod:     PowerPC 7455 (G4)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 13, 2018, 05:14:20 AM
17” PB = 1Ghz or 1.5 GHz?

Only ran one series of MacBench 3.0 tests with Processor and FPU checked,
on a 1.5GHz mini with the Ableconn and the 120GB Zheino… and didn’t run the
Graphics tests. (Sorry text only - no charts.) Read/Write disk tests, here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4435.msg31650.html#msg31650

Just installed v.8 last night and eventually will run MacBench 3.0 again.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacTron on June 13, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
7448 and the L3 cache
A 7448,,,  where?  ???
... and with L3 cache?  :o
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Jubadub on June 15, 2018, 12:53:44 PM
I do have a pretty decent build system that I am more than happy to share, to help with, or just to run on request. It is useful even just to make changes to the Open Firmware script a la iMic. So if anyone on the board wants to tinker but needs help getting started — or if they know someone who might — then get in touch!

Just wanted to state I'm interested, but only around September in case no one else steps up before then. The reason I can't act any earlier is because my hands are tied, as I'm currently immigrating countries (dual citizenship, woo), then will have to secure work and house first, on top of getting ready for getting married before the end of the year.

Also, guys, great job on those newer Mini ISO releases. :) This is looking fine!!

Thanks to this project and everyone's efforts (particularly ELN and the other core developers), my mini became my main OS 9 machine. Compact and perfect. Thank you all once more.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on June 15, 2018, 05:44:36 PM
7448 and the L3 cache
A 7448,,,  where?  ???
... and with L3 cache?  :o
   PowerPC 7455 (G4) I were wrong.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Hyram on June 15, 2018, 07:31:33 PM
Ta-daa!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/xcdga7x8rc4uijh/Hyram-minig4-tests.jpg)

For Fury's edification, here's the adaptor in some detail:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/hj2l0rmzgz74o92/Hyram-purple-jmicron.jpg)

Adaptor bought via:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/381616689178

- Input Voltage: 5 Volts
- Chipset: JM20330
- 1 x 52-pin Mini PCI-E SATA female connector
- 1 x 44-pin IDE 2.5inch male connector
- Compliant with SATA specification 3.0.
- Compliant with UDMA6 ATA/133 specification.
- Supports 50mm full-height mSATA SSD.
- Supports 3.3V Mini PCI-E SSD (mSATA Module).
- Mximum capacity: 2 TB
- Max sequential read: 100MB/s
- Max sequential write: 50MB/s


As mentioned in that epic macrumors thread from a few years back:

"The JM20330 chip does not work correctly with TRIM, and performance will suffer if the OS is using TRIM. Windows XP does not do TRIM, but Windows 7 and above do TRIM on all SSDs by default, so it must be disabled."

Remember, I bought ten of these two years ago, knowing full well that these aren't a patch on the Marvell-based red Able-Delo-ddonick jobbies, because they were headed for the insides of some old iBook G4's that are part of a performance-visuals rig. Speed wasn't even remotely a consideration, the goal was getting rid of moving parts where possible. Their job is to run "iVideo", a combination videclip database and playback app (think iTunes for movies) - five iBooks sourcing key-word-searchable short clips from a 2TB portable NAS and playing them into an Edirol video mixer for further processing. A 16GB mSATA went into each one, which was plenty to hold OS X and little else.

I still had two left in the spares-box, so when v7 appeared I found a Samsung MZMPC032HBCD 32GB mSATA drive and tucked it into a spare adaptor and tackled the Mini. With pleasing results, I ordered a Toshiba THNSNF128GMCS 128GB mSATA off eBay and it arrived just as v8 landed so I started a'fresh, and the chart above was with the new 'build'.


Hey Ross, you know that "mouse-death" problem? I struck it just about every time I booted the installer CD, sometimes I'd have to punch 'er in th' guts two or three times until I got a boot I could actually drive Drive Setup with ... until I tried something odd and I never encountered the pointer-freeze again. I used an Apple Pro Mouse. Yep, that's right, forget the Logitech & Microsoft & two-dorra horrible rodents, with an old Pro Mouse plugged in, I never encountered the freeze.

Weird, huh.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Jubadub on June 15, 2018, 07:59:13 PM
Hey Ross, you know that "mouse-death" problem? I struck it just about every time I booted the installer CD, sometimes I'd have to punch 'er in th' guts two or three times until I got a boot I could actually drive Drive Setup with ... until I tried something odd and I never encountered the pointer-freeze again. I used an Apple Pro Mouse. Yep, that's right, forget the Logitech & Microsoft & two-dorra horrible rodents, with an old Pro Mouse plugged in, I never encountered the freeze.

I also noticed this when I switched from my Microsoft USB mouse to an Apple ADB one (connected to a Mac ADB keyboard) using iMate (an ADB-to-USB adapter). Not sure if that actually solved the issue, or if I'm still equally likely to stumble on it, but so far, it has yet to happen again.
(A downside of this adapter, though, is that the keyboard is only being recognized after boot, no matter what, thus preventing me from accessing OF on it etc..)

By the way, regarding the sound issue, I realized that there's another problem with it (in my case, anyway): the sound is partly messed up. At first, I thought the speakers I connected to it were faulty, but then I noticed two things:
1) They work perfectly under OS X;
2) The exact same issue persisted with all my other speakers and earphones/headphones, which are known to be working.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 15, 2018, 11:21:23 PM
Only apple mice I have now are:

Wireless Mighty Mouse from iMac G5
Wired Mighty Mouse from 2008 Mac Pro
And 2x Magic Mice version 1

Maybe Mac Pro Mighty mouse would work?

Used to have an Apple Pro mouse, with a iMac G3 Indigo summer 2000 dvd-rom slot load,
but that was sold with everything it came with and box a few years ago, which did include the mouse.

Just using a Dell badged mouse, in System Profiler it is Logitec. I still get mouse stuck every now and then but ok for me now. Take "shut down" app from the CD Extras folder and put in your Utilities folder, then assign it to an FN key. Then you can press that key when you next get stuck, to shut down safely.



About the sound, how messed up is it for you. Distorted? Maybe not right word to use, but I only notice just the slightest of this, barely noticable, when I have the volume really quite high, it can help if possible to use an apps in game sound controls, but I don't notice it really. It was when ELN set the ROM so the Mac mini had Quicksilver identity, that I noticed a lot of distortion or whatever, but we are back on G4 Cube identity which seems much better for sound.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Jubadub on June 16, 2018, 12:50:40 AM
After rebooting my mini many times today, I finally got the mouse issue for the first time with the setup I described in my previous post. =| It was bound to happen, afterall.
On that note, I should point out that I noticed the exact moment the freezing occurs is sometime after the Start Up screen pops up, whilst (or slightly before?) extensions get loaded.

The sound issue I have on my end is pretty bad. Even if volume is decent, the "distortion" may be best described as "sound tearing". It seems to happen for specific sound outputs, rather than any sound output. The affected outputs are always the same. That is to say, they are not "randomized".
I'd say the "tearing" is bad enough that no music can be really appreciated: It gets irritating/annoying pretty fast.
... But on second thought, I'm also being a bit stupid: I'm still using the v1 install of the ISO (still "detected" as a G4 Cube) since I was quite content with it, but to make sure we always stay on the same page as far as troubleshooting goes, I'll make sure to update to v8 ASAP. I'll reinstall everything from scratch using the CD (after backing up my programs etc.).
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 16, 2018, 01:09:25 AM
You can use "Update to v8.sit", to update from v1 if you want to not loose any data. That will give you all the new stuff replacing any old stuff, it's attached to a post above. And yeah v1 does use a different ROM to the one in V5 and after that
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Ninester on June 16, 2018, 06:36:28 AM
After rebooting my mini many times today, I finally got the mouse issue for the first time with the setup I described in my previous post. =| It was bound to happen, afterall.
On that note, I should point out that I noticed the exact moment the freezing occurs is sometime after the Start Up screen pops up, whilst (or slightly before?) extensions get loaded.

The sound issue I have on my end is pretty bad. Even if volume is decent, the "distortion" may be best described as "sound tearing". It seems to happen for specific sound outputs, rather than any sound output. The affected outputs are always the same. That is to say, they are not "randomized".
I'd say the "tearing" is bad enough that no music can be really appreciated: It gets irritating/annoying pretty fast.
... But on second thought, I'm also being a bit stupid: I'm still using the v1 install of the ISO (still "detected" as a G4 Cube) since I was quite content with it, but to make sure we always stay on the same page as far as troubleshooting goes, I'll make sure to update to v8 ASAP. I'll reinstall everything from scratch using the CD (after backing up my programs etc.).

With version 7, I had zero mouse or keyboard problems over many boots and clean install. This with M$ mouse and Dell keyboard.

Now I have installed the version 8 upgrade, Apple USB keyboard with same M$ mouse. Mouse locks up at end of every 5 or 6th boot.  On shutdown I see that mouse still has power, so I unpluged from Apple keyboard straight into powered hub, mouse happy now.  Will continue to swap things around.

Analog out sound broken up as in old comments.  Switched to cheap USB DAC, sound now excellent through powered desktop speakers.

BTW, RossDarker, having fun with the mini, thanks for your effort!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 16, 2018, 06:38:33 AM
It must be coincidence, v8 is similar to v7, no rom or extension changes.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 16, 2018, 07:05:33 AM
ninester did you use the full install and therefore lost your prefs..?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Ninester on June 16, 2018, 08:13:02 AM
It must be coincidence, v8 is similar to v7, no rom or extension changes.

I opened trash can to compare what the updater replaced with old color labeled system items thrown away. Was a bit mystified on same for same items.  Are there any change logs published?

Thx!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Ninester on June 16, 2018, 08:19:16 AM
ninester did you use the full install and therefore lost your prefs..?

No sir, just the updater. As RossDarker noted, must be coincidence.  My QS does the random mouse freeze as well in 9.2.2.  Overall, really happy with 9.2.2 over my OS 7.6 days, last century.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 16, 2018, 09:03:18 AM
Reason you might have some same items, it's just for incase you have older versions. E.g you have installed 9.2.1, with older ATI Drivers on that volume, the updater will just replace the items if they already exist, and if it needs to, so in this case it would update the old ATI drivers to the new ones that run on the Mac mini. As you know DarthnVader's got his custom ATI drives for the Mac mini, which the update will put in place of the old ones.
Title: Mac mini QuickBench - Drive Setup
Post by: FdB on June 17, 2018, 09:03:45 AM
if 2.1 doesnt have any new features, one should ban it from everywhere.
Just might have to retract my complete agreement with IIO concerning the use of Mac OS CPU Software 5.9 / v.2.1
over Drive Setup 1.9.2 …due to current QuickBench results from a 1.5GHz Mac mini - 1GB RAM with the
Zheino/Ableconn combo, re-initialized for each test and running clean installs of v.5 and v.8.

However, cold-boot startup time did increase to 50 seconds [v.8 with DS v.2.1]
…over previous 34 seconds (optimized OS) & with Drive Setup 1.9.2
But, I do still use 1.9.2 to format external drive(s) with the mini.

Also, current updated costs per GB of OWC, Zheino, DogFish
and the KingSpec DOM for the Mac mini:

OWC                                      120GB = $1.06/GB
Zheino / Ableconn combo      120GB = $0.54/GB
DogFish combo                      120GB = $0.43/GB
KingSpec - 44 Pin           32GB DOM = $2.47/GB

Still, would be interesting to see QuickBench results from an OWC in a mini.

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 17, 2018, 09:17:09 AM
Are you saying 2.1 gives faster boot time than 1.9.2, or the other way round, reading that post slightly confused me. When you say v8 with 2.1, the one that opens when you start of the v8 CD is 1.9.2, not 2.1. Drive Setup 2.1 is still on the CD, but you must open it yourself if you wish to use it.
Title: Mo' Mini QuickBench
Post by: FdB on June 17, 2018, 10:34:41 AM
Other way around.

Read/Write QuickBench results are better with v.8 initialized with 2.1.
Boot times DO increase with 2.1.

But check those transfer size rates per second…
in comparison to the Zheino initialized with 1.9.2.

I can wait 16 seconds more for the mini to boot with a 2.1 initialized disk
…if it’s going to give me improved read/write performance while I work.

And also, the Mac mini QuickBench results for the Ableconn/Zheino combo
(in a Mac mini) approximate the QuickBench, OWC SSD results from DieHard’s
1GHz Powerbook. (But that’s a 1.5GHz mini’s processor up against a 1GHz PB.)
At nearly half the cost of the OWC, the Zheino is no slouch in the mini.

Still like to see PT5’s QuickBench results in his similar PB after using 2.1
…to see how the Ableconn/Zheino combo compares, head-to-head.

Intend to do additional MacBench 3.0 comparisons (not QuickBench) later on.

DH’s OWC PB QuickBench results attached.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on June 17, 2018, 11:46:04 AM
From Fury,

Quote
Read/Write QuickBench results are better with v.8 initialized with 2.1.
Boot times DO increase with 2.1.

But check those transfer size rates per second…
in comparison to the Zheino initialized with 1.9.2.

I can wait 16 seconds more for the mini to boot with a 2.1 initialized disk
…if it’s going to give me improved read/write
performance while I work.

Great job Fury !!! If true for all units, this is something that was never discovered before.  We need M.A.R.L. Labs to verify that the boot times differ and the transfer rates.  The different versions of the drive setup copy different OS drivers to the HD, but I cannot imagine why there are such differences; again, we create more questions than answers...
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 17, 2018, 01:00:50 PM
what should an app have to do with a longer boot time?

i am using my hacked v1.8 something driver setup (german) in my 9.2.2. (US) since 16 years and never had any issues with it. (formatted about 45 to 50 HDs with it)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 17, 2018, 01:04:41 PM
DH: while you re on it, test it against a disk formatted with the disc utility shell script as well.
Title: Mac Mini - Occam's razor?
Post by: FdB on June 17, 2018, 01:49:24 PM
And here are the MacBench 3.0 results…

They seem to confirm the difference between using 1.9.2 and 2.1.
Overall, individual reported numbers vary slightly over the
QuickBench results, but not by a great difference.

Both MacBench 3.0 Comparison’s “report order”
has been rearranged to match the QuickBench format of:
Sequential Read - Sequential Write - Random Read and Random Write sequence.
[SR-SW-RR & RW]

The V5 “Disk Mix” numbers appear odd in the sense that the 1.92 results
report a 519.77 score versus a 435.95 score for 2.1.
(A reduction instead of an increase, by comparison.)

My apologies for the small text… trying to keep my image file sizes down.
(Ahh hell, I’ll leave the V5 text “at size”.)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 17, 2018, 02:23:36 PM
Maybe it's the version of the "Mac OS 9 Drivers" that are put on the disk. Like 1.9.2 puts older drivers on, 2.1 puts newer. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but different versions of these OS 9 Drivers could have different speeds.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 17, 2018, 02:25:02 PM
that´s interesting.

so you suggest that as consequence 2.1 should be used as default and the older one is only an alternative in case you have problems with certain oxford controllers?

this would affect the universal 922 iso as well i think. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3089.msg19892.html#msg19892

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 17, 2018, 02:51:05 PM
If 2.1 yields me better working read/write performance in the mini (as it appears to do)
then I'll use 1.9.2 when I have to... to format any externals (that I might need to).

And sure, I question the validity of all benchmark apps... but QuickBench
and MacBench 3.0 seem to agree with each other in this particular instance.

As I now consider the possible differences for HDs in Quicksilvers & MDDs. :o

Yet... I'll wait for confirmation/denial from "other" testers.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on June 17, 2018, 02:54:49 PM
Maybe I should change some of the v8 iso so it mentions this, make 2.1 the default again. And I can put both versions so they appear in the apple menu of the CD.

If this is possible... Can you format a drive with 1.9.2, then update the drivers from 2.1. But then 2.1 might not let you update the drivers if it is <not supported>. And also a chance that it has nothing to do with the disk drivers.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 17, 2018, 03:18:09 PM
Wouldn't get in a big hurry to change anything until someone else confirms the results.
I wiped and re-initialized the drive before re-installing the OS in each test. (Not fun.)
But it was an "either-or" test from the onset. If it works out and is confirmed, then you
might consider an "update".

And, the tests were performed with only the basic OS from the install disks installed.
No other software was installed on the Zheino during the tests.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Stash on June 17, 2018, 07:36:37 PM
Had a version of Tiger working on a Mac mini 1.25GHZ with SSD Drive.

Was keen to get Os9 working on it as well.

Used v7 to create 2 partitions one for OSX one for OS9.

Can install OS9, but OSX installers now just stall.

any thoughts?

John
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 17, 2018, 09:22:14 PM
Not an OWC SSD by any chance?

If you’ve a Tiger install CD and the mini won’t boot (or Option-Boot)
from it to install (I had that problem after installing v.7). You might try
the Open Firmware boot option described below. (Typed exactly as shown.)

Then there’s also Firewire Target Disk mode too,
if you’ve another machine to attempt the install from.

But, you say it “stalls” as if you’re able to get into the install… just so far?

A little more info from you might be needed.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Stash on June 18, 2018, 12:28:45 AM
more info..

Aim: wanting a faster PPC machine to open old music files both on OS9 and OSX

Initially:
After installing the SSD inside the Mac mini, I transferred a working version (dual) boot of a system 10.4/OS 9 running on a G4 iMac.
using CarbonCloner with the drive under Target mode.

All worked fine, except it would not boot in OS 9,
Google researched and ended up here.

After partitioning the device into 2 drives (both with OS9 Drivers and one Extended, the other Extended Journaled (for OS X), I have tried installing via
- Target Boot and Carbon Cloner a disk image of previous install.
- Tiger CD install direct from CD.

Both process start but kinda stop part way through then cursor freezes and SWOD.

Hope that helps.

numbers times, now I cant get an OS X image on the OS X partitions
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 18, 2018, 02:01:34 AM
two other things i would try first (before using target disk mode to clone a partition or booting from OF)

 - using an alternate optical drive via usb or firewire

 - boot into OS9 first, select the tiger install CD via "startup volume" control panel.

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Stash on June 18, 2018, 02:05:24 AM
two other things i would try first (before using target disk mode to clone a partition or booting from OF)

 - using an alternate optical drive via usb or firewire

 - boot into OS9 first, select the tiger install CD via "startup volume" control panel.

tried both..
Went the OS9 route first and it really didn't like booting up via the CD for OS X
OS9 installed successfully.

So went far enough to create 2 partitions that had OS 9 Drivers and thought get OS X installed first and then return to an OS9 install..

this is where I am.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on June 18, 2018, 04:32:40 AM
It's really best to partition the disk from the Terminal when booted from the OS X install CD/DVD, I outlined how to do that.

If you want a partition for OS 9, and one for OS X, it would be something like:


Code: [Select]
diskutil partitionDisk /dev/disk1 2 OS9Drivers HFS+ MacHD 4000M JHFS+ OSXHD R
This would create 2 partitions, one name MacHD formated HFS+ that is 4000 Megabytes, and one names OSXHD formated JHFS+ that would use the remainder of the disk.

Just adjust the size in megabytes you want for you OS 9 partition, and insure you are partitioning the correct disk( /dev/diskx ).
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Stash on June 19, 2018, 05:23:54 AM
thanks for all your help... appreciated it and let me know if this is not the place for this discussion.

Tried Terminal and getting "Does not appear to be a valid disk size"
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Ninester on June 19, 2018, 06:18:46 AM
thanks for all your help... appreciated it and let me know if this is not the place for this discussion.

Tried Terminal and getting "Does not appear to be a valid disk size"

I boot from mini mod OS9 cd.  Initialise, create two partitions, install os9. Restart, check for good boot os9. Restart and insert Tiger disk, use "C" key to boot into Tiger installer, install Tiger in other partition.  This mainly to insure good Tiger boot CD images from Mac Garden. I have the four CD and single Tiger DVD boot image.  Worked many installs, no bootable FW for me.

If, all your CD's good, no SSD errors, then ?  Boot into Tiger then run disks utilities to verify SSD?

..send your mini to FdB, he will put it on the "rack"..;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 19, 2018, 06:38:39 AM
It's really best to partition the disk from the Terminal when booted from the OS X install CD/DVD, I outlined how to do that.

if there are scenarios (other than user error) where the mini-CD can cause that a mini refuses to boot from a tiger CD we need to fix that on another level.

aand for now i assume a user error or something with USB - because why would a mac not boot from a volume only because some other volume on aanother drive isnt right?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 19, 2018, 09:16:41 AM
It's really best to partition the disk from the Terminal when booted from the OS X install CD/DVD, I outlined how to do that.

if there are scenarios (other than user error) where the mini-CD can cause that a mini refuses to boot from a tiger CD we need to fix that on another level.

aand for now i assume a user error or something with USB - because why would a mac not boot from a volume only because some other volume on aanother drive isnt right?

Myself (occasionally being the involuntary practitioner of user error)…
have just discovered that using Drive Setup 2.1 on the “mini-mod” v.8 install disk, and then two-partitioning the drive before installing the “mini-mod” v.8 software… the mini then allows the C-boot install of Tiger 10.4 (from single DVD) AND even Tiger 10.4.6 (also from single DVD)… whereas before, I invoked the Open Firmware method to boot from the Tiger install DVDs (when I had used Drive Setup 1.9.2 previously, which would not allow the Tiger C-boot).

Yet another reason to use Drive Setup 2.1 when installing the “mini-mod” v. whichever number?

In other, related news…

Last night I went ahead and ran the comparison between the two Drive Setups on a 1.25 GHz mini with a (probable) 4200 RPM Seagate 80GB HD to check which Driver version was installed and it checked out… 3.25 vs. 3.3 (as expected). Quickbench results weren’t as dramatic as with the 1.5GHz with Zheino, but there were improvements. Suppose that with a slower drive, one can’t expect that much drama.

Re-initialized a 1.25 GHz mini with Drive Setup 1.9.2 from the v.8 install CD and it installs HD Driver 3.2.5 …whereas Drive Setup 2.1 installs HD Driver version 3.3. QuickBench comparisons for both (below) show a slight increase in performance with the 80GB Seagate standard HD. Not nearly as dramatic as the Zheino results in the 1.5 GHz mini… but still, a little boost in some areas as the XFer sizes increase.

Did not check cold boot times but I did discover that my earlier report of 50 seconds on the 1.5GHz mini was incorrect. Had timed that with the 1.92 Drive Setup on the 1.5GHz with the 3.25 HD driver in place. After that discovery, re-initialized the 1.5GHz with Drive Setup 2.1 and clocked that cold-boot @ 38 secs. A mere 4 seconds more (without any pruning) than my previous 34 second, best…

So, there is no 16 second increase in boot time when using 2.1.
(The increased cold boot time came with 1.9.2.)

My apologies. Erreur de l'utilisateur!

FireWire and frozen mouse noise, later.

 
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on June 19, 2018, 10:50:15 AM
And then...

After C-booting the Tiger 10.4.6 install disk and before installing the OS… using Tiger’s disk utility I then erase the second partition set up previously with the mini-mod and format that second partition as “Extended Journaled” before installing OS X. Afterwards, if I want to boot OS 9, I must Option-boot to choose it. If I want to re-boot into OS X, I can select that from the Startup Control Panel… but OS 9 is not available in the OSX  System Prefs under Startup Disk.

All the above on the 1.25 GHz mini, but I’m almost certain it’ll be the same in the 1.5 GHz mini. (Also, no time-shift weirdness as of yet, between OS 9 and X.)

FireWire External

Formatting the VST 10GB FW drive with 2.1 yields an “Unrecognized” or “not mounted” comment via mini-mod OS 9.2.2 v.8 (or something like that). So I format the FW drive with Disk Setup 1.9.2 which seems to work best across various Mac OS'es and machines. However, after mounting the FW drive and even after ejecting it, QuickBench then reports the reduced 1.9.2 performance results. Yes, even after it’s been put away / disconnected. But, after a reboot, the improved performance QuickBench results return. Go figure.

Frozen Mouse

Encountered many freezes at startup on the 1.25 Ghz mini last night. I’m using an Apple 20” Cinema Display (metal) and plugging my keyboard and mouse into that as a sort of USB hub. Probably demanding a lot from the mini. But, I simply moved the USB plug from that Cinema Display to the USB port (USB 1) closest to the mini’s video-out and haven’t had a freeze since. Know that sounds odd, but it’s true. Perhaps someone with more internal knowledge of the mini might explain this? Good Ju-Ju?

For now, I rationalize it as the USB port closest to the FireWire port on the back of the mini has had more use by previous owner(s), who… like me, used that port thinking to allow easier in/out access for thumb drives and/or other USB devices? Before adopting the USB 1 approach, I always tried to keep the mouse/cursor moving until complete boot (which seemed to help for the most part). But, unattended boots too often resulted in el-freeze-o de-Lux.

(I don’t plug the Cinema Display’s Firewire connector into the mini’s… I reserve that for direct connect to external FW drives.)

Question for IIO: If you’re using Drive Setup version 1.8 "something-or-other", what Driver version number is showing up in your Apple System Profiler under OS 9 on your G4 Mac mini?

 
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 19, 2018, 11:19:30 AM
sorry my current machines are all "built" with OX, i.e. all IDE volumes have versions 3.3 and all SATA volumes have 8.1.4 (the raids have "not available")
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on June 19, 2018, 11:30:38 AM
wait i am wrong, most fw disks are older than the last rebuild. i think it doesnt show any info tho. will check again with the tiger utility later.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Stash on June 30, 2018, 10:33:04 PM
After 25 attempts of partitioning OS X and OS 9 drives, I manage to do it.
Turns out the optical CD/DVD drive was causing the system to hang "IOATAController device blocking bus".

I removed my SSD and formatted outside of the box.
Reinserted.
Managed to get one good OS 9 install of v8 of the disk
Then removed the optical drive for good.

Seems to have fixed the problem.

Thanks for everyones' help.

John
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on July 09, 2018, 09:33:24 AM
found another small issue.

1. when you want to boot from the mini CD for some reason you might want to have access to unstuffing/unzipping.

for that it would be nice when stuff it engine and carbon lib would be included in the CDs boot system.

2. booting with the mini CD might for some people lead to a resolution totally unsupported by his monitor.

for that it would be nice when system monitor extension and the monitor control panel would be included in the CDs boot system.

eventually the monitor controlpanel should be available via apple menu or apple menu / control panels
(or even in autostart? dont know about you, but setting the resolution is the first thing i do when configuring a new machine.)

.

i have not yet checked what could speak against including those items.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on July 09, 2018, 09:57:02 AM
Right now the CD uses the "Mactron System Folder", I believe that's what it's called and I have customised some things so it works on the Mac mini, and customised the Apple Menu when you're booted off the CD only. I can if you want add that Control Panel to the Apple Menu on the CD, and put extension in the system folder. This would be an update to the V8 CD. By the way are you now using a properly installed system? I remember you copying over the System Folder directly from the CD, which is meant for the CD only, instead of using ASR.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on July 09, 2018, 10:58:24 AM

ok i just figured out that the monitor controlpanel is in fact installed.

but what is weird is that when i start monitor control panel from an existing system folder on the HD, it claims it could not load because the monitor extension would be missing.

and the monitor control panel on the CD looks totally different from the normal OS9 control panel.(?)

yes i think a link to the controlpanels in the applemenu would be nice. resolution and mouse and these things should be easily accessible.

it might confuse noobs that you get warning message about not beeing abel to write the prefs file when you chnge something but that is better than not beeing able to control the settings.

I remember you copying over the System Folder directly from the CD, which is meant for the CD only, instead of using ASR.

lol no, i did that intentionally to see what happens.

my minis work fine, but one of them is left unattached from the music world and serves for testing stuff atm.

...

what i m currently trying to figure is how one could easily choose in which OS to boot (via remote on headless machines) when there is more than one system.

right now i turn it on, then reboot it (e.g. into OSX). doable but not perfect.



Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: OldIowaMac on July 12, 2018, 07:02:15 PM
Just a note about a frustrating problem I had been trying to install onto a 1.25 Mini. After several tries and failing due to the Mini not recognizing keyboard commands to either start from the CD or show all bootable devices, a switch of a non-Apple keyboard for an old G3 keyboard did the trick. Maybe this is common knowledge. If not....

Otherwise, what a great project you have accomplished here!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on July 18, 2018, 01:24:19 PM
slightly off topic... short question, short answer?

i have an app which i renamed to "finder" in order to make the computer "boot" right into that app.

to run this app, it is required to run another app before.

this other app is in the autostart folder. the user doesnt need to touch it, it does its job, then closes itself.

now my question is, is that at least somewhat "thread safe"?

(how) can i be sure that the autostarted app will be open before the "finder" is launched?
(the job that other app performes is really quick, ~25ms on a mac mini)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on July 18, 2018, 02:03:06 PM
 - solved -
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: vectrex on July 24, 2018, 09:08:33 PM
Another success here. Posting this from my 1.42 Mac Mini!

Installation was a breeze with the latest CD (targetbooted the mac mini, used a Powerbook G4 to install).

Very awesome, thank you all SO much!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: gmvengineer on July 27, 2018, 08:18:53 PM
I would also like to thank everyone involved in the Mac Mini project. I have always wished I could run OS 9 on my 1.25 Mini which I bought new from the Apple store so many years ago. What a huge advantage it is because it's so quiet! I've been through so many G4 machines including the mighty Mirror Doors but they all were much too noisy. So for those who are interested, I installed OS 9 on the Mini (1.25 w/ 1 GB Ram) then went into my closet and pulled out all of my original audio apps which include Cubase 5, ProTools 5.2.1, Reason 1, Recycle 1.7, Rebirth and Reaktor 2.3. I'm using all of those apps with an original Mbox and everything is working very well! Combine that with several of the plug ins from this website plus a very quiet Mac Mini and I now have a machine that I always imagined.

I plan to mix something on this system and then mix the same song on my Mac Pro in Logic X just to see how they compare.

Your efforts are very much appreciated!  :)

GMV
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on July 28, 2018, 11:52:21 AM
I would also like to thank everyone involved in the Mac Mini project. I have always wished I could run OS 9 on my 1.25 Mini which I bought new from the Apple store so many years ago. What a huge advantage it is because it's so quiet! I've been through so many G4 machines including the mighty Mirror Doors but they all were much too noisy. So for those who are interested, I installed OS 9 on the Mini (1.25 w/ 1 GB Ram) then went into my closet and pulled out all of my original audio apps which include Cubase 5, ProTools 5.2.1, Reason 1, Recycle 1.7, Rebirth and Reaktor 2.3. I'm using all of those apps with an original Mbox and everything is working very well! Combine that with several of the plug ins from this website plus a very quiet Mac Mini and I now have a machine that I always imagined.

I plan to mix something on this system and then mix the same song on my Mac Pro in Logic X just to see how they compare.

Your efforts are very much appreciated!  :)

GMV

Wow, real world Mac mini into DAW mode !

I have wanted to do similar things with a few old projects, please keep us posted and link the 2 MP3s so we can also evaluate the 2 mixes !
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on August 11, 2018, 09:18:30 AM
I would also like to thank everyone involved in the Mac Mini project. I have always wished I could run OS 9 on my 1.25 Mini which I bought new from the Apple store so many years ago. What a huge advantage it is because it's so quiet! I've been through so many G4 machines including the mighty Mirror Doors but they all were much too noisy. So for those who are interested, I installed OS 9 on the Mini (1.25 w/ 1 GB Ram) then went into my closet and pulled out all of my original audio apps which include Cubase 5, ProTools 5.2.1, Reason 1, Recycle 1.7, Rebirth and Reaktor 2.3. I'm using all of those apps with an original Mbox and everything is working very well! Combine that with several of the plug ins from this website plus a very quiet Mac Mini and I now have a machine that I always imagined.

I plan to mix something on this system and then mix the same song on my Mac Pro in Logic X just to see how they compare.

Your efforts are very much appreciated!  :)

GMV
Music or it didn't happen. ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Metrophage on August 19, 2018, 12:53:04 AM
WooHoo! You guys rock. I have been without a functional OS9 box for about two years, and just got a mini G4. Within minutes I was able to use Ross' latest disc to get it set up, and am currently backing up the stuff from my broken TiBook. It was easier and quicker than an official install, and seems rock solid so far. Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Metrophage on August 19, 2018, 11:20:39 PM
Guess I spoke a little too soon about stability. The mini works great most of the time, feels very responsive. But it often freezes when starting programs - and ONLY when starting programs. This was before I loaded anything that added any extensions or control panels. I will need to poke around in the system folder, and re-seat the RAM once I figure out how to open this thing.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 20, 2018, 04:10:56 AM
Needs some patience if applied the for 1st time for the plastic notches of the case are fairly stiff (it's a pure clamp construction).
Get a very thin, but slightly rounded spatula and start inserting on one side for a quarter inch or so. Then gently lever so the inside comes up a bit over edge. Do the same on the other sides and go round in a few sequences, lifting it more and more.
That's the basic idea, but check ifixit for details with the screws and some cables. It's not difficult, but a bit messy.

Btw my results are similiar to yours, and some even bizarre.
I don't have a matching external audio interface and onboard sound is either off or full on.
Initially it crashed right about on SonicWorx, then (after connecting the acryl speakers from a Cube) it played with crackles, next step was Koblo (that worked nicely) and eventually it's usable. Iirc Koblo's gain (running in background) could be abused to control general sound level, as the regular panel is disfunctional.

At least the Mini seems to have kind of settled regarding sound, but it's not 100% reliable.
Sitting on top of it's modern OSX bro is picking up a tremendous amount of noise from the OSX box, if that is active - probably because gain of the virtually non-existent input channel is full up. I expect an external interface to improve things much.

Strength and Honour to the fellows who made this possible at all and my deepest respect 8)

ps: running it with an Eizo 1920x1200 - occasional screen 'going blacks' on the DVI input, but it comes back immediately. Seems to be the common ATI experience. This screen doesn't work with DVI from my G3 B/W at all (using a VGA to DVI cable solved that issue).

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on August 20, 2018, 08:34:12 AM
Quote
Btw my results are similiar to yours, and some even bizarre.
I don't have a matching external audio interface and onboard sound is either off or full on.
Initially it crashed right about on SonicWorx, then (after connecting the acryl speakers from a Cube) it played with crackles, next step was Koblo (that worked nicely) and eventually it's usable. Iirc Koblo's gain (running in background) could be abused to control general sound level, as the regular panel is disfunctional.

Yes, as documented, the stock sound under the mini is useless, you need a USB or FW interface that has the ability to route "System Sound" and all is well
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 20, 2018, 09:09:54 AM
in fact the non-functional sound was what kept me away from this experiment for a long time.
But with the new CD it seemed such a quicky that I took the plunge.
Peak with the 'Internal' sound setting worked quite well, though, but after messing with Asio/Soundmanager a certain part of my testfile developed a very specific artefact that wasn't there before and remained at the very same location. Let's see what's there after reboot...

Until I get an interface I'm quite happy that I can at least preview some soundmangling with SonicWorx (which I like for it's gritty output and surprises).
Peak 3.2 is a bit more fluid than the 2.5 TDM on my G3 B/W and that basically covers what's needed to process and cut sound snippets.
(in particular the USB Overdrive mapping of mousewheel to zoom, wheel click to 'set region as loop' and right button 'play-stop' make it super fast and easy)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on August 20, 2018, 11:03:51 AM
Just as soon as I get my tiny head out of “reel-to-reel world”
(TEAC models: A-1500-W, A-6010 und X-2000R)...
I long to return to the thrilling Mac mini sound exploits,
as I’ve now quite a few possibly suitable interfaces.

Analog to digital… ain’t I got fun?

TEAC-parts and NAB adapter PMs welcome.

I know, I know… tapeheads.net  ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: brirec on August 20, 2018, 11:09:09 AM
I have a rather odd problem occurring: I bought an mSATA to 44pin IDE adapter on Amazon and an mSATA SSD, and if I plug it in I have no optical drive — the Mini just does not see an optical drive at all. I tried borrowing another optical drive from a PBG4, and it didn’t make a difference, and I tried two other mSATA to 44pin IDE adapters (including the one that works just fine in the PBG4)

Anyone else have this problem? Is it the adapter? Any suggestions?

Right now I’m using a G4 MDD in Target Disk Mode with an mSATA SSD as an installation target, then swapping the SSD over to the Mini, but to say this isn’t ideal is a bit of an understatement…

Also, I thought someone said the onboard sound works with the headphone output? I’m not getting any onboard sound at all. I ordered a new-old-stock Griffin iMic that I’m sure will do just fine, but I really hoped to have this working :(

Lastly, if I install both Mac OS 9 and Tiger is there a way to set Mac OS 9 as default? Or will I have to option-boot it every time?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on August 20, 2018, 11:39:13 AM
Which adapter did you get? Are there jumper settings on it for slave, master, CS, etcetera?
Might need to look more closely at the installation instructions for the adapter... and
configure jumper settings accordingly.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 20, 2018, 03:48:41 PM
... Also, I thought someone said the onboard sound works with the headphone output? I’m not getting any onboard sound at all. I ordered a new-old-stock Griffin iMic that I’m sure will do just fine, but I really hoped to have this working :(
yes, that was me, 2 posts above yours - sending the headphone out into a preamp because it's uncontrollable and will either blast your ears (with cans on) or wake the neighbours (with speakers connected). As mentioned not 100% reliable, but most of the time decent.

But: there is no input option shown in any any software. I didn't know that it's a headset socket, so I may give it a try tomorrow with the respective 4 pole cable just for completeness.
I have no idea what makes the output work, it's quite bizarre as you can't even activate the volume control (which jumps back into off position every time).
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Metrophage on August 20, 2018, 04:05:00 PM
Yes, as documented, the stock sound under the mini is useless, you need a USB or FW interface that has the ability to route "System Sound" and all is well

I was sort of aware of the audio issues, but I expected them to play out a bit differently. I am accustomed to my TiBook which also has no onboard audio. But in that case, of course it has supported audio that is simply fried (before I obtained it, as was the FireWire - I was able to fix the latter). So I thought "no big deal" because If I need audio I connect the MOTU. Difference being that the TiBook "thinks" it has normal audio I/O under SoundManager, so that system still acts normally even without the MOTU.

For the Mini, I just need to remember not to try testing audio programs without an external interface connected. The web pages of MorphOS claim to have working audio on Minis, I wonder if that part of the project is open source or not.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 21, 2018, 12:34:22 PM
on OSX you could do that either by firmware (actually boot efi) modification to make it think it had a virtual audio device (like the Xserve does) or use an real audio driver which does not complain about missing hardware (like the motu would) - soundflower works great for that.

in OS9 it is a bit more difficult, at least i dont know a virtual audio driver offhand. and even if you had one, you would get into trouble that it of course would not automatically switch back to motu (like it does in OSX) next time the motu device is connected/turned on.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 21, 2018, 01:45:02 PM
Imho what they implemented in this system/ROM/patch works like a virtual driver.
If I start with extensions disabled, there's sound from Tokyo/Koblo and Peak through the Mini's headphone out.
The Gamma 9000 Drumbox and the Stella 9000 Sampler worked really well.
If there are glitches, they seem level based (which also may apply generally to the the flaws experienced in other apps), something like the sampling range exceeded.
Turning level down fixes it.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on August 22, 2018, 08:46:56 AM
Quote
Imho what they implemented in this system/ROM/patch works like a virtual driver.
If I start with extensions disabled, there's sound from Tokyo/Koblo and Peak through the Mini's headphone out.
The Gamma 9000 Drumbox and the Stella 9000 Sampler worked really well.

That is very interesting... but I am assuming you ARE using the stock apple sound manager ASIO drivers (within the App) with extensions disabled ?  If not, I don't understand this at all
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 22, 2018, 09:57:18 AM
Peak obviously doesn't use Soundmanager/Asio it shows just 'Internal' for output (but Peak doesn't run with extensions disabled at boot time, as it loads some library stuff and Open Transport, I've edited my post above).
Tokyo seems entirely self contained and gets sound out without any extentions active.

But in fact it's confusing: now Sonicworx crashes reliably on loading Asio Soundmanager, which it previously did several times.
Also opening the sound control panel now freezes the machine, while originally it opened the thing and just did nothing except jumping back to zero output level.
I will probably re-install from a fresh copy...  :-[
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 22, 2018, 11:20:49 AM
The reinstall fixed it. Sonicworx is loading Asio Soundmanager and sounds good, as long as input file sound level doesn't exceed -6dB/fs. Bias Peak 3.2 is also working normal.
Learned: virtual memory is poison for digital audio - the system started with VM on and Tokyo stumbled through it's beats  ::)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: brirec on August 22, 2018, 08:07:06 PM
I think I have this working right, finally!

What’s preventing DVI video and better audio support? Maybe I could help, but I don’t know enough about it yet — I would like to learn.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 23, 2018, 12:58:38 AM
One can solve all audio problems with an external interface and these (oldies) are cheap today.
You'd need one anyway for better sound quality (in particular) for microphone and instrument input. So it's simple not worth the effort.
Similiar on video: the onboard ATI hardware is miles below the capabilities of a current iPhone.
Too much time for just nostalgia imho.

In the audio domain the old OS9 software provides a lot of efficiency within a rather 'undisturbed' working environment. Bias Peak lets me collect sample loops from recorded audio in no time at all. A couple of mouse function mods with USB Overdrive let me handle selection, precise start/end point and auditioning with just the mouse alone.

Not all audio under OS9 is created equal, but some software featured a quality that's competetive even to standards 20 years later.
That's probably the reason why a lot of folks here are into digital audio.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 23, 2018, 01:06:45 AM
Peak obviously doesn't use Soundmanager/Asio
Tokyo seems entirely self contained and gets sound out without any extentions active.

they both support and require ASIO, but on the mac mini we still have to discover some "best practice" yet.

(if you instll new apps, dot forget to move a copy of your hw driver into each app... OS9 style)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 23, 2018, 01:09:22 AM
Similiar on video: the onboard ATI hardware is miles below the capabilities a current iPhone.
Too much time for just nostalgia imho.

if you really have an iphone with 24" monitor running tokyo and sonicworx then pls post a tutorial. :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 23, 2018, 01:33:00 AM
Peak obviously doesn't use Soundmanager/Asio
Tokyo seems entirely self contained and gets sound out without any extentions active.

they both support and require ASIO, but on the mac mini we still have to discover some "best practice" yet.
seriously: Peak doesn't require Asio to run and output sound. It get's along with that 'sweet nuthin' it finds. Whatever that is...
Only if you select an item from the effects menu, it wll inform you that this needs an Asio driver running (... go to setup and select the driver...), so this proves that Asio is not active and not needed either. For me it's not a problem because I'm only into the edit part.
And I didn't touch any sound control panel or similiar items this time to avoid accidently spoiling the party.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 23, 2018, 01:48:38 AM
if you really have an iphone with 24" monitor running tokyo and sonicworx then pls post a tutorial. :)
You know that you can connect that phone with a lightning-to-hdmi cable with a big screen ;)
Btw it's quite funny to find some of those old algorithms featured in Sonicworx also in more elaborated versions in Zynaptiq products. (Zynaptiq is the successor of Prosoniq)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 23, 2018, 12:16:30 PM

you probaably mean sommething different, but you said peak would not need asio or soundmanger but still outputs audio.

this is verrry verrry harrrd to believe. :D

yeah, that fft stuff from sonic worx is surely more interesting in real time.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 23, 2018, 01:14:31 PM
in fact it's hard to believe, and I'm not a digital audio noob.
The Mini is connected with a mini-stereo to 2xTR to the line inputs of my iConnectAudio4+ so any audio comes from that Mini headphone socket... for whatever reason.

Today I scored a 1GB Simm for cheapo, PC3200 specs (suggested PC2700 unavailable) - works, too.  :)
Local pickup of an old interface seems more challenging, but for the time being I can record realtime output by the iCA4+.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 24, 2018, 02:14:50 AM
try bootig without soundmanager and you will see what happens :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 24, 2018, 05:00:59 AM
well... same as before, Tokyo, Sonicworx and Peak simply work  ;D
(but my estimation of the level distortion problem is not correct, it seems a Sonicworks specific issue related to the import file format. One of my reference files (24bit) plays flawless in Peak, but transient scratches in Sonicworks, no matter if I bring the level down, reduce bit depth or apply both)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 24, 2018, 06:24:07 AM
lol, maybe you found a new feature of the mini OS.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 24, 2018, 08:11:58 AM
definitely not - I'm just using what those (really) smart guys hacked/implemented.
It was mentioned explicitely that 'sound doesn't work', maybe some stubs or fake stuff inserted just to make the Mini boot.

Since sound is a synonym for Asio/DAW in most cases, it's in fact unoperable and crashes.
Let alone you can't control the Mini's sound level, even active speakers are at risk when those glitches occur. With a preamp and cans the situation is less dramatic.
My own use is rather humble: just catch some sound snippets from files generated by some of those digital vintage processors and audiotiong with those app's internal sound is more than adequate.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on August 24, 2018, 08:23:50 AM
Quote
level distortion problem is not correct, it seems a Sonicworks specific issue related to the import file format. One of my reference files (24bit) plays flawless in Peak, but transient scratches in Sonicworks
I don't know if this is related, but I was also getting the same symptoms in sonicworks with 24-bit files playing thru my 2496, I then replaced the ASIO 2 driver with the "Metro" ASIO driver and then all played crystal clear, so I know for a fact there is a relationship between the "scratches" and each ASIO driver, you say your ASIO folder is empty... so this may not be helpful.  There have been times when I literally have 3 to 4 different ASIO drivers for the same audio hardware all on the same mac, but for different applications... some use 2.0, some 1.0 and some just like one revision over another
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 24, 2018, 08:32:46 AM
thanks, good to know - the Asio folder cannot be empty, SW will refuse to work then.
It loads it's default AsioSoundmanager file (as indicated on the splash screen), but obviously not caring about Soundmanager at all.
I won't go into any config panels, afraid of causing havoc again ...  ;D
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on August 24, 2018, 06:08:28 PM
does this thread really have 777 replies ? :o
epic!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 24, 2018, 07:17:04 PM
It was mentioned explicitely that 'sound doesn't work',

that applies to the distortion you hear and the missing volume control. soundmanager itself work perfectly - if your audio IO supports it.

however, i cant reproduce what you said, using peak or tokyo and getting sound without sound driver. in fact you can not even select "no driver".
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: brirec on August 26, 2018, 09:42:46 PM
does this thread really have 777 replies ? :o
epic!
Of course it does. If you consider that Mac OS 9 has virtually no multiprocessing support and doesn’t touch more than 1 GB of RAM, my 1.5 GHz Mac mini is actually faster than my MDD G4! It also cost a hell of a lot less, is much smaller and quieter, and uses less power. It’s almost portable!

You can buy a G4 mini on eBay for under $100 easily, and often under $50 especially if you’re willing to do work on it, and at this point in time it’s certainly worth adding an SSD if you have the know-how (though this CD from this thread means you don’t need to know how to do any more than plug it in!) This makes running OS 9 natively more practical than ever. Whatever the reason you wish to is, whether it’s old recording software, nostalgia, old games, or whatever, you can do it a million times faster than with a G3 iBook in approximately the same space.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 27, 2018, 01:15:16 AM
You could build a custom case providing (possibly) better heat distribution for the ATI graphic chip on the backside and improve the CPU heatsink to run fanless.
Btw an original IBM Thinkpad PSU would make a great replacement for the original one.
(those go into standby low current mode automatically if the consuming device is turned off)

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacTron on August 27, 2018, 09:06:18 AM
Of course it does. If you consider that Mac OS 9 has virtually no multiprocessing support and doesn’t touch more than 1 GB of RAM

The same old myths again  :-\  ... this is not true, it was discussed a lot of times, just make a search please ...
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: brirec on August 27, 2018, 09:25:16 AM
Of course it does. If you consider that Mac OS 9 has virtually no multiprocessing support and doesn’t touch more than 1 GB of RAM

The same old myths again  :-\  ... this is not true, it was discussed a lot of times, just make a search please ...
Well, I see you’re right for sure! I meant 1.5 GB as that’s what I saw on my MDD, but it seems I was completely wrong on both counts!

Still, a G4 mini is definitely a great system to run Mac OS 9 on, and while I’m wrong about Mac OS 9 not being able to fully utilize the (mostly) better hardware of my MDD, there are certainly power and size benefits from 3-4 years of miniaturization!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: MacTron on August 27, 2018, 11:35:28 AM
Of course it does. If you consider that Mac OS 9 has virtually no multiprocessing support and doesn’t touch more than 1 GB of RAM

The same old myths again  :-\  ... this is not true, it was discussed a lot of times, just make a search please ...
Well, I see you’re right for sure! I meant 1.5 GB as that’s what I saw on my MDD, but it seems I was completely wrong on both counts!

Yes, you are wrong about multiprocessing support too. The Mac Os 9 have multiprocessing support, but very few apps use it. If your work depends on one of them, it really worth for sure. Cubase 5 for example can increase up to 2X its CPU power with a dual CPU.


Still, a G4 mini is definitely a great system to run Mac OS 9 on
I'm agree with you.
But the 1Gb of RAM limit of this machine make it unusable for me.

mini means mini, always :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on August 27, 2018, 12:11:09 PM
but mactron, minis are so small, you could use 5 of them - and then you have 5 GB of RAM with OS9. ;)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: brirec on August 27, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
but mactron, minis are so small, you could use 5 of them - and then you have 5 GB of RAM with OS9. ;)
indeed, I bet I could fit ten or more minis in the same amount of space my MDD takes up, they’d be using probably a similar amount of power, and now we’ve got ten CPUs and (up to) 10 GB of RAM!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Metrophage on August 28, 2018, 11:45:56 PM
I needed to check out some internals, and in the process give the Mini a good cleaning - probably its first. But now having put it all back together, I've borked it. I am quite experienced, having tinkered with Macs for about 20 years. But for the past five or so, everything I touch seems to turn to shit. I set up new systems, and within a couple of days/weeks they are dead. Minis give me some hope because they are cheap and plentiful, but I am way too broke to go through this every time.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on August 29, 2018, 12:35:24 AM
maybe you just ripped off the on-switch during reassembly - happened to me...  :-[
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Metrophage on August 29, 2018, 01:06:21 AM
No, but I broke something. Sometimes it starts to boot, and freezes - other times it emits the three "bad RAM" tones. Even for the stick that was working yesterday. So if I had to guess if the problem was all of my RAM or the Mini, the latter seems more probable.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Daniel on August 29, 2018, 07:02:27 AM
I really hope you can fix that, because my iBook G3 has the same problems. A pity, because it is the only Mac OS 9 laptop I have with a working battery.

On an unrelated note, there are so many posts here that I think we might need a new sub-forum entirely for the mini.
Title: Sleeper - Mac Mini - FREE!
Post by: FdB on September 18, 2018, 06:35:51 PM
Well Sports Fans…

For those that have been using “Sleeper” on the Mac Minis, our good buddy Jon over @ St.Clair Software has provided us with our very own special username and registration number (in order to quell yet another bothersome, repetitive dialog box upon startup with the mini). Full copy of Jon’s (what-a-guy) communique follows… enjoy!

“I’ve created a serial number for MacOS9Lives folks (below). As I said before, it's pretty much "as-is" because I don't have a Mac OS 9 machine here that I can use to provide tech support. That said, the software's pretty bullet-proof - by version 3.5 I'd pretty much programmed help into it for most common problems.

Those were the good old days when I used to write OS patches in assembly language. ;D Now we're stuck with layers upon layers of stuff in macOS, including yet more security hoops in 10.14 that both developers and users have to jump through. Anyway, here's a serial number. If folks in the community would like to say thanks and support a long-time indy software developer, they're welcome to PayPal donations to gotow@stclairsoft.com

- Jon

Here is your Sleeper 3.5 registration information:

       Your Name:  Mac OS 9 Lives
       Registration Number:  5140

To remove the purchase reminders from Sleeper, follow these steps:

1. Open the Sleeper control panel
2. Click on the 'Register...' button
3. Click on the 'Enter registration code' button
4. In the fields provided, type in your name and registration number exactly as they appear above.  You may type any information you want into the 'Organization' field, such as your company or department name.”

(I added all the italics above.)

Soooo… PayPal Jon a buck (or five) or maybe just drop him a quick note of appreciation. Damned nice of him I’d say. Maybe let him know it is appreciated(?).
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on September 19, 2018, 06:51:50 AM
*like*
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Dogcow on September 23, 2018, 03:00:52 PM
Wow that's a lot of comments! Amazing work, sorry didn't read all of 'em.
The few links I saw for an ISO are all dead. Is there a ready-to-go OS 9 installer for Mac mini?
Got a 1st gen 1.42GHz mini here that would be very happy on OS 9 :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on September 23, 2018, 03:25:00 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RocAG5EizhVw_YjY4VlKi0OG4d7wQARj/view

burn, follow instructions, (eventually make sure to backup since it reinitialises your HD), enjoy!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Dogcow on September 23, 2018, 03:38:48 PM
Thanks a lot! Burning now
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Dogcow on September 23, 2018, 07:36:51 PM
Thanks to everyone that made this possible, I now have the perfect Mac mini; one with OS 9 on it :D
Made a little video on it. Nothing new to the folks here of course but still figured I'd share.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt2AYXMLzgY&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: thatguychad on October 04, 2018, 06:30:05 PM
So what inexpensive solutions are there to getting audio?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: brirec on October 04, 2018, 06:58:23 PM
So what inexpensive solutions are there to getting audio?
Sabrent USB External Stereo Sound Adapter for Windows and Mac. Plug and play No drivers Needed. (AU-MMSA) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IRVQ0F8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_SdSTBbD8T28YY

I bought one of those. Worked, as it says, without installing anything. On Mac OS 9. But FYI, it seems a little flaky/strange at times, as it has some strange quirks. For example, the volume isn’t controllable.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on October 04, 2018, 10:27:33 PM
Regarding the onboard chip: I had a few cracks at it, but honestly I don’t understand the native Sound Manager architecture or the hardware well enough to make much progress.

If anyone wants to have another shot, I can post my work on the Apple Audio Extension to GitHub.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: SabithaSuki on October 31, 2018, 10:22:22 PM
Any chance for an upgrade package, so we dont have to wipe our HDD's with an earlier version (not to mention files and software)?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on November 01, 2018, 07:30:44 AM
Any chance for an upgrade package, so we dont have to wipe our HDD's with an earlier version (not to mention files and software)?
Is this what you mean, or something else?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17n20BaT_bLgBtsGJwS0D-6sNWJ-Kuluh/view
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on November 01, 2018, 07:41:14 AM
you dont need to wipe, booting and formatting is kind of only an extra feature of ross´ CD.

if you already have OS9 drivers on a disk, you can just copy the system folder from the CD over to install a new or repair an existing system.

or why dont you make your own: just make a backup of your system from a fresh install and put it on CD. bootable or not.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: torvan on November 06, 2018, 12:42:55 PM
Am seriously looking at a Mini G4 1.5Ghz that is listed for less than $50 with shipping.

But before I make the plunge, I assume this model will not be any different than the successful OS 9 install on the  1.42 and 1.25 models?  I mean looking at the respective models on Everymac.com, the only difference outside of processor speed is the larger memory on the ATI 9200, USB 2, faster standard HDD, Bluetooth 2, and Airport G. 

Or am I spelling "assume" as a short name for the sentence? :-)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Daniel on November 06, 2018, 12:59:42 PM
Am seriously looking at a Mini G4 1.5Ghz that is listed for less than $50 with shipping.

But before I make the plunge, I assume this model will not be any different than the successful OS 9 install on the  1.42 and 1.25 models?  I mean looking at the respective models on Everymac.com, the only difference outside of processor speed is the larger memory on the ATI 9200, USB 2, faster standard HDD, Bluetooth 2, and Airport G. 

Or am I spelling "assume" as a short name for the sentence? :-)
The current state thread claims all speeds will work. Though really you can buy just about any G4 system you want: the "Dream Team" is good enough to get it working if they have someone available to test stuff.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: FdB on November 06, 2018, 03:23:57 PM
Hey T.
I assume this model will not be any different than the successful OS 9 install on the  1.42 and 1.25 models?
Working? With power supply? Go for it!

Have 3 out of the 4 “flavors” here and they all accepted the “New Nine”. (Yet to acquire a 1.33 GHz.)
Understand that the 1.42 is relatively easy to over-clock to run @1.5 …should one so-desire,
but still very nearly as fast… without the bother.

Installed an SSD & adapter sled in one 1.5GHz here, which works very well (even two-partitioned
with OS X - 10.4 resident). Absolutely great little machines and the only things I look out for now is
scarred cases (per Neanderthal-like attempted case entries) and the 1GB maximun RAM installed.
(Still inexpensive to purchase and easy to install.) If you get Bluetooth and WiFi too,
well those are added pluses.

If you get one with a less-than the optimum “white” plastic top, or a scarred case… they can be
painted to conceal such things …and there are many varieties of complete top cover “stickers”.
My OCD and a desire to better dissipate heat prompts me to clean the rubber bottom and then
apply four small adhesive (1/8" feet) to the rubber bottom "corners" for airflow / cooling.

Only real task I’ve yet to do, is to replace the heatsink paste but with Winter here and the fact
that the nylon “keepers” can be replaced on the heatsink’s with new / small, threaded nylon
nuts and bolts (from the hardware store if necessary)… that may also happen here, soon.

You like your G4 iMac?… you might just love a little Mac mini with a nice DVI monitor.
(I do... I have freakin’ seven of them now!) ???
All hail the "Dream Team"! 
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on November 07, 2018, 08:51:42 PM
Am seriously looking at a Mini G4 1.5Ghz that is listed for less than $50 with shipping.

you are right, it is thhe same machine like the 1.4 , main difference is the 64 VRAM.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: ELN on November 08, 2018, 01:14:35 AM
Teensy hint for a poster way back: the best way to make a mini boot 9 by default is to put 9 on a partition closer to the start of the disk than your X partition. Fiddly otherwise.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on November 09, 2018, 04:18:40 AM
closer to the start means that you have to look for the technical name of the partitions, because their order is often upside down when you create 2, right?
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: devils_advisor on November 11, 2018, 11:01:34 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grbd4cI7z8M

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: SabithaSuki on November 14, 2018, 07:44:10 PM
Any chance for an upgrade package, so we dont have to wipe our HDD's with an earlier version (not to mention files and software)?
Is this what you mean, or something else?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17n20BaT_bLgBtsGJwS0D-6sNWJ-Kuluh/view
Yes thank you ross! Sorry for the delayed response.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: thatguychad on November 27, 2018, 08:45:11 PM
Sabrent USB External Stereo Sound Adapter for Windows and Mac. Plug and play No drivers Needed. (AU-MMSA) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IRVQ0F8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_SdSTBbD8T28YY

I bought one of those. Worked, as it says, without installing anything. On Mac OS 9. But FYI, it seems a little flaky/strange at times, as it has some strange quirks. For example, the volume isn’t controllable.

I bought three of these on this recommendation but it doesn't seem to be working for me with the default install. Do I need to do something else? Sound control panel only shows Built-In and there's no sound.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: torvan on November 28, 2018, 11:55:16 PM
Well, total success on my G4 Mini with it's 80GB HDD.  Now to look at a larger drive to put in her!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: dobber on December 01, 2018, 02:42:07 PM
My 1.42GHz mini is booting now as well.  Thanks everyone -- I was really wanting to get a Mac running something of the old era, and this does the trick.  I was going to resort to running it in an emulator on a Raspberry Pi, but this is much better.  I even have it triple booting to Leopard and Tiger, which helps if I want to transfer stuff to it.

I've got a Sabrent USB External Stereo Sound Adapter on the way, so I'll update thatguychad if that works as well.  [Update] No-go on this -- it doesn't appear to give me any system sound.  I wonder if it matters if it's plugged directly into the mini -- I had it plugged into a USB hub.  I also clicked on a checkbox in the 'input levels' of the sound control panel and it locked the system up while cranking the fans to full blast -- don't recommend that.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: arnyekveto on December 13, 2018, 10:55:49 AM
Hi, I recently grabbed a Mac Mini G4 1.25 GHz from flea market for 40 EUR. I burned the V8 installer of OS9 from here. The mini has maxed out setup, working optical drive and bluetooth + airport in it. What is surprising for me it "accidentally" detected my Rapoo bluetooth mouse during boot from the freshly burned OS9 installer CD, also via airport IP address was assigned in OS9. Though the bluetooth mouse have serious glitch, it seems vertical movements are interpreted fine, though horizontal movements are overamplified, moving mouse up-down slightly 1 mm will make the cursor immediately bump the top or the bottom of the screen, so it seems unusable as of now.
I did not installed OS9 permanently on the mini, it is waiting for a msata-to-2,5ide adaptor ATM (it still has a shitty 40GB HDD in it), currently it has 10.4.11 Tiger installed. I use it with VGA adapter due to resolution issues and screen blankouts, though OS9 boots from CD in 640x480 resolution, I am not sure if I can bump it up to my 1680x1050 monitor. (under 10.4.11 it was set with SwitchResX).

But anyway, it seems mini grabs my bluetooth mouse signal during boot and in a glitchy way that initialization lasts while it boots the OS9 v8 disc.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: torvan on December 14, 2018, 11:46:28 AM
I will say that while mine was successful as I mention above, there are times on a reboot where the video is fraked up and require a power cycle reboot to address.  It is a series of blocks and lines.  But still, just a simple reboot fixes it!

Yeah, the sound is loud, good thing the BEM speakers have volume control on them!  If one thing could be on my wish list, it would be to control the sound in the OS.


Mac Mini G4 1.25/1GB RAM/ 120GB SSD IDE   20" Aluminum DVI Apple Cinema.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: tommi on December 14, 2018, 01:03:11 PM
hi everybody,

success with my 1,33GHz mini as well.......
i have to admit all your efforts  leave me speechless..... now my mini is alive with OS9, wow :)
great, great job, thanks to all.

i can confirm that when checking the check box in sound control panel the system would freeze as well, but that freeze vanished in the air after installation of driver for m-audio transit usb (just the driver, hardware not plugged in), which is still available at their suppot site.

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on December 18, 2018, 08:17:39 AM
I can confirm that when checking the check box in sound control panel the system would freeze as well, but that freeze vanished in the air after installation of driver for m-audio transit usb (just the driver, hardware not plugged in), which is still available at their support site.

Wow, that is very interesting, we should probably include that software and make some notes :)

Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: xchris on December 19, 2018, 04:03:30 PM
Really EPIC release guys! many thanks for this!!

Its just a couple of months that a friend of mine gave me his old mini @1.4Ghz (alas no BT/WIFI card, he canibalized it sometime at the past), OS9 runs like like a champ there, I only had some issues to make it boot , looks like corrupted NVRAM, I had to reset it, then everything went fine.

Added bonus: I even can browse/format/edit 3.5 floppy disks via a Dell floppy drive module (is USB too, model nr FDDM-101).

cheers

chris
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on December 20, 2018, 07:01:52 AM
i might have the same floppy drive i grabbed from a thrift store for 5$ its a dell too
 :)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: RossDarker on December 29, 2018, 01:27:11 PM
Since this is the first thing that comes up when you search "mac mini g4 os 9", someone should add this link (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4365.0.html) to post #1. Don't remove anything from the first post though, just add it on somewhere. Even though this is a great thread too read through, it might take someone a while to find, since the link is probably buried in one of the pages.
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: CurtisC on January 29, 2019, 10:20:48 PM
I’m having a problem with a G4 Mac Mini. The OS 9 install works, but later on, I did this:

I took out the CD / DVD drive, and with an adapter, put a hard drive in its place (80 GB).

When I turn the computer on, it automatically freezes, staying at a gray screen.

Is there a way to overcome this?

I’ve reset the PRAM multiple times, and no results!
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on January 29, 2019, 11:43:32 PM
does the boot manager work ? (hold alt during startup - it should at least show a question mark now)
Title: Re: Mac OS 9 booting on: Mac mini G4 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Astroman on January 30, 2019, 04:55:33 AM