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[V.Yakob]

Yesterday I tried to boot the TechtoolV257 diagnostic image.

Part Mac OS 9 based tools did not boot, of course, but the screen was strange.You can't see it in the photo, but a question mark flashed behind these stripes on the floppy disk.
Part Mac OS X based tools is booting, the test passes. Offers to change the structure of the disk, fixes, but retesting again offers to change the structure of the disk.

The following attempts to  boot Mac OS 9 based tools were also unsuccessful, there was only a gray screen.
 
Damn it.

[FBz]

“The last thing I can do is change the video card.
If this does not help, it will only mean that there is some problem in the motherboard.” - V. Yakob

AND NOW… back once again to a possibly damaged, not fully functioning video card?



Works just fine with OS X but OS 9 is a now, long-tested no-go. In the past, when the machine had almost completely booted OS 9 (once?) it loaded only 5 extensions before then locking up and displaying the banding stripes across the bottom of the display.



Here, I’d slap another (lesser) video card in to test. But Vitaly does not have that option there.
Instead he now awaits the arrival of a Radeon 9800 Pro, 128 Mb (PC) that he will likely need to flash(?) and “disable those pins”, in order for it to work in his MDD. And overall, the noted performance of the 9800 Pro is questionable with OS 9.

See:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3849.msg25923.html#msg25923
AND:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2438.0.html

So before the 9800 arrives, maybe remove / disable all* of the ATI extensions in the OS 9 partition (via OS X) and test with the 9000 Pro, a few more times?

*Especially the ATI video accelerator.

[IIO]

interim logbook report:

"week 4.

it still has stripes, but now it slightly begins to look like MacOS9.

about to replace non-mac card in the mac with another non-mac card.

reaching pluto in t-12. need to put team on vacation for one week after landing."

[V.Yakob]

So before the 9800 arrives, maybe remove / disable all* of the ATI extensions in the OS 9 partition (via OS X) and test with the 9000 Pro, a few more times?

Removed, but there are no changes.

interim logbook report:

"week 4.

it still has stripes, but now it slightly begins to look like MacOS9.

about to replace non-mac card in the mac with another non-mac card.

reaching pluto in t-12. need to put team on vacation for one week after landing."

No, Mac OS 9 does not boot, there are accidents, but in general it does not work. Usually only a gray screen.
Why? Radeon 9000 Pro Mac Edition, 64 Mb is now installed. A photo of this videocard is in the posts above. I don't have any other video cards that I could install now.

First to the Red Planet, like Arni in the movie "Total Recall". 

[FBz]

Think that Vitaly has now surpassed the amount of time that it took me to get my original MDD to install and run OS X. (OS 9 worked fine for me - but OS X would not!) Some-thing was missing.

And EveryMac notes that the Radeon 9000 Pro - did ship stock in the 2003 MDDs.

     

So perhaps now (here clutching at last straws)… maybe download, burn and install the complete “full boat” of the very LAST MDD software set (as previously mentioned by DieHard) and try it all over again. EVEN before the arrival of the 9800 Pro? http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3266.0.html [One DVD and Five CDs.]

If that doesn’t work, perhaps it is way past time to consult a Gypsy to have the curse removed from this machine OR to begin the sacrificial offering of small live animals. Hoo-doo Voo-doo, bad ju-ju.

AND one more thing… the 2003 MDDs also originally shipped with Mac OS 10.2 (Jaguar). Which might be easier to download and burn than the full set DieHard mentioned. I don’t recall if you have tried Jaguar before, but it seems to me that I did once go this route to “build” an MDD - eventually forward to Tiger (and with OS 9 too). Jaguar is available as a downloadable, two-CD set.

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/mac-osx-mac-os-10-ppc

OR:

https://www.macintoshrepository.org/45-mac-os-x-for-ppc-osx-10-0-10-1-10-2-10-3-10-4-10-5-

This approach with Jaguar, was to install the “something that wasn’t there”  with the later Panther or Tiger installs. And after installing Jaguar, I installed OS 9 and then went on to install Tiger etc. afterwards. Hey, it may be worth a shot… before the 9800 arrives?

It’s the OS stepping stone, linear OS progression routine, Ahh-nold. 


“At the same time, Mac OS X 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 work fine. Classic mode starts without problems.” -Vitaly

Ahh, so you have tried Jaguar! How about one more time? Insert the Jaguar disc, erase completely and partition the SSD into two partitions. Install Jaguar… AND THEN install OS 9.2 on the other partition. (Install Panther or Tiger over Jaguar on the same partition only afterwards.) Good luck!

[GaryN]

Capt. LongShot here……

So…Vitaly. If you find this question insulting for any reason, I sincerely apologize in advance. I ask it only because it appears that every single possible cause for the machine refusing to boot OS9 has been investigated and eliminated and there's literally nothing left beside the Gypsy curse I previously mentioned.

All except for one……

Does your MDD possibly look like the picture below?

[FBz]

Well, I can answer that. NO.

Here's an image sent to me from Vitaly, very early on.



But yes, the question is completely understandable.

[V.Yakob]

I'll say more, FBz suspected that it was a case from MDD 2003, and a motherboard from FW800 with a removed FW800 port. But no, it's a motherboard from MDD FW400, 2003.
We also compared this motherboard to those of FBz.

We checked all the crazy options we could come up with.

[GaryN]

So, we're back yet again to the Gypsy curse.

I guess there's always Kremlin-authorized malware…

[FBz]

Okay, anyone running a Sonnet (or other) processor upgrade in their MDD? Wondering about just how your boot-device path is noted… as if there’s a difference in those MDDs that have been “patched” to run OS 9 with similar processor upgrades?



Of course, Vitaly has reset his MDD to original(?) settings but I still wonder about these possible differences.

A few years ago, Tugboat had a Quicksilver with a Sonnet upgrade that worked fine with Tiger… but it would not boot OS 9 natively. He swapped the Sonnet upgrade out with an original Apple Quicksilver CPU and then could boot OS 9 natively.

Yes, still rolling all of this around - perhaps (more than) a bit like a dung beetle.

[GaryN]

Personally, I've been pondering this issue with the assumption that if there was a Sonnet or other proc upgrade in Yakob's MDD, we would have found out about it by now…

I have a Sonnet MDX in my MDD. There is a firmware update required to use it. AFAIK, it's because the Sonnet uses 7448 CPUs which must be added to the "acceptable CPU" list in firmware to allow booting with it.

There is also an OS9 Extension for it that is named with a leading space to load first and - as far as I can tell - simply displays the Sonnet logo under the "OS 9.2" startup box. I have booted with it disabled and it makes no difference - the system boots either way.

There is also a specific (modified?) Multiprocessing/"Apple CPU Plugins" file for OS9. When I first got the Sonnet, it wouldn't boot OS9. I was sent the file by a kind soul at Sonnet and it fixed the issue. It's "Version 3.5 / Mac OS CPU Software 4.5" I don't remember now, but it may have been modified or it may have simply been a later version than what I had. It seemed to be a known issue to the guy at the time. There was/is no reference to this at all in any Sonnet literature. It also does NOT however, affect operation if/when you return the original procs to the system.
* I also remember sending a copy to somebody else with a Sonnet-ized MDD that wouldn't boot and it worked for him too…

Anyway, bottom line is: Even if there was a Sonnet previously installed and a firmware patch applied, it doesn't affect "going back" to the original 7450s in any way. The boot-device path is simply the path to the location of the boot tbxi file.

That all said…

Your chart of "Yakob's after Firmware Updater" is puzzling… the path "pci2/ata-6@D/00:12" seems… weird for lack of a better word.
What generates that boot-device list? I'll run it on my MDD.

[FBz]

Gary,

Not certain that this is what you were asking but…

Booted into Tiger, open the Terminal app and type in: nvram -p

That’ll get you contents of nvram including the boot-device info.


I just now booted into open firmware on a G3 iBook and typed in
devalias at the prompt and got the following:



Will do same on an MDD tonight / tomorrow just to see what (or if)
pci2/ata-6@D/00:12 rears it’s head. I don’t understand the difference,
or if it does make any difference. Weird? Odd? Maybe nothing.

[GaryN]

Will do same on an MDD tonight / tomorrow just to see what (or if)
pci2/ata-6@D/00:12 rears it’s head. I don’t understand the difference,
or if it does make any difference. Weird? Odd? Maybe nothing.

I'm curious because I don't get pci2/ either but it's in the boot-device path so what does it mean or where does it go?

I'm guessing (again) because I haven't been interacting with Yakov that much and I don't know BUT:
How about the good ol' MDD cable select stuff? With an improperly set HDD OR a non-cable select cable, the system could be looking for the OS9 system in the wrong place or simply not finding it  ?
We need to confirm that not just the OSX System, but the OS9 System as well is actually visible to the computer at startup.
If he has it on a different drive and/or a different ATA bus with an incorrect cable select……see where I'm going? The MDD can see OSX but not OS9.
Granted, it evidently can see Morph and everything else it's been exposed to so this is probably a no good theory as well.
I hate to think the firmware has been irreversibly corrupted by one of those many OS's. It only takes one little incorrect flag-type bit to f-up the old Mac OS while the Unix-based OSX isn't bothered by it……… I think

I mean, dammit… there are only so many possible causes for this and it seems like ALL of them have been eliminated.
This is the point where you normally swap-test both the motherboard, the CPU daughterboard and everything else until you find the culprit.
Is there no such thing as a Mac user group in Russia?
…………… Seriously, I'm about ready to return to the Kremlin spyware theory…

[Greystash]

I have actually experienced this behavior before in several machines due to weird HDD setups. I haven't been following this too closely so sorry if any of this has already been tried. I only set up my OS9 machines with SSDs now using bribges and some have presented the same behavior. They would only boot OSX, would show a disk with a blinking question mark, or would stay on a gray screen and do nothing. The OS9 partition would still be visible as a startup disk under OSX (if OSX was present on another partition/drive) but OS9 would never boot.
Most recently I tried this setup in an iMac G4 (700Mhz) and it refused to boot OS9 regardless of the different configurations I chose (single/split partitions, master/slave, different bribges etc.). Some configurations resulted in the stuck gray screen and did nothing, others it would get to the point where it would show the disk with a question mark. At this point I gave up and figured it could possibly be the SSD brand/type that has incompatibilities or it just won't work with a bribge. On my iMac G3 no matter what configuration I have it shows a floppy disk with question mark for ~20s before it finds the OS9 partition and boots  normally. I can't install OSX on another partition otherwise it will always choose OSX to boot before finding OS9. On a Quicksilver I have had setups that work with both OSX + OS9 and it would boot to OS9 no problems on the first boot, but upon restarting it would only find the OSX partition/disk as bootable. I would then have to do a proper shut-down and turn it back on again to restart in OS9.

With my MDD issues (which are now solved) I found that having no pin termination (CS, Slave, Master) on my boot HD (mechanical) caused the machine to crash when waking from sleep in both OS9 and OSX.

Sorry for the rambling but I agree with Gary, the HD setup seems like a good place to keep digging. HD setups with OS9 can result in some very strange behavior.. I would try testing with more than one mechanical HDD's that are properly formatted and have had drivers installed with Drive Setup (if you haven't already)

[peeperpc]

I have the same boot-device pci2/ata-6@D/@0:12,\\:tbxi.
The HDD is a 2TB Seagate connected to a Bribge adapter set as master.
The Mac is MDD 867MHz Dual, running OS X 10.5.8.

On a Quicksilver I have had setups that work with both OSX + OS9 and it would boot to OS9 no problems on the first boot, but upon restarting it would only find the OSX partition/disk as bootable. I would then have to do a proper shut-down and turn it back on again to restart in OS9.

Not the same exact problem but the characteristic is the same as one of my "Bribge" adapters: it only works properly in first boot.

In my case, the defective Bribge, when set as master, refused to boot OS X (no OS 9 was in focus at the time) from the drive connected to it on the second boot. It would switch to boot from other drive. To make it boot from the drive connected to it, I had to shut the Mac down and turn it on again or set the adapter as slave. It worked flawlessly as a slave.

The issue was also described in my reply in this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6225.msg46635.html#msg46635

If the OP is using a Bribge, I would try replacing it.

[V.Yakob]

Is there no such thing as a Mac user group in Russia?

Well...
Apple is very popular in Russia, mostly because of the iPhone, Watch, AirPods, iPad, but in my opinion, there are fewer Mac users.
And I'll say more, I myself sometimes write manuals for Mac on the blog, because there is little information about Mac in Russian, unless it comes to a "checkbox in the settings" or reviews. For example, I configured a pf firewall on Mac, organized a network TimeMachine on Linux with domain user authentication, transparent domain user authentication to Wi-Fi through the Radius server in Logon Window without using Server.app.
As for old Macs, many people know nothing about them, or have seen them only in the movies. For example, in the movie Hackers (1995), the heroes of the film use Mac, and OS, probably System 7.5.
We have more computers on Windows, 20 years ago everyone I knew had Windows, and no one had a Mac.  I know that it was used in designers, printing houses, etc. But not everything is so bad, there is an Apple computer museum in Moscow, there are a lot of things there. You can find photo reports on the Internet, see if you are interested.
And as you can understand, I have never used Mac OS 9 before on a real computer, only on an emulator, which is not effective. I'm interested! I bought this MDD for old games and Mac OS 9. 
I'm new user Mac OS 9. More precisely, I want to be.

I'm sorry for the offtop, but you asked.

And so, I got a video card, flashed it, and it works fine on Mac OS X Tiger. Mac OS 9 continues to show a gray screen. It turns out, the problem is not in the video card.

peeperpc, When I received this computer, there was a native disk (80 GB) with one partition installed OS X Tiger + Classic
Mac OS 9, which was supposed to boot from Classic files did not boot, there was only a gray screen.
The SSD and PATA to SATA adapter appeared later.
Then I bought a basket with 2 250 GB drives that I connected to port ATA/66, I tried to restore to one of these MacOS9Lives.img images from Mac_OS_9_Universal_install.iso using the Tiger disk utility.
If I choose to boot from a disk connected to ATA/66, it looks like this in NVRAM: mac-io/ata-4@1f000/@1f000/@0:10,\\:tbxi
I tried to install 3 different PATA HDDs, 1 SATA HDD through the adapter and 1 SATA SSD through the adapter, used ATA/100 and 2 ATA/66, as well as 4 different PATA cables.
I also tried 2 DVD-ROM drives, 2 ATA/66 ports and 2 PATA cables.
Only sometimes, it is not clear why, Mac OS 9 boots or I see frozen stripes with a floppy disk, or "Happy Mac" appears and the boot freezes. I've been struggling with it for a ~2 month, and I've probably tried everything.

I replaced disks, cables, monitor, RAM, video card, even specially bought a one-button mouse to work in Mac OS 9 -- Nothing helped. I can't be wrong all the time.


The circle is closed, last two option:
1. Accept fate and accept the fact that I can't boot Mac OS 9;
2. Spend $100 on another MDD.

Unfortunately, due to sanctions, I can't buy a motherboard on eBay.

[GaryN]

Today I installed a new SSD, divided it into several partitions. Installed 10.4.
Copied the "System Folder" and "Applications (Mac OS 9)" directories from the os9general.dmg package to this section, to no avail
I noticed a strange thing, right after copying, rebooting and holding Opt, I did not see the possibility of loading Mac OS 9, it appears only after rebooting with the choice of Mac OS 9.

Oh jeez… I just went ALL the way back to the beginning and found the above.
It now suddenly looks like this may turn out to be yet another SSD bridge adapter that doesn't do cable select problem.
…and it was right here in front of us all the time?

I've been (mildly) admonished in the past for telling users to spend a few (literally, only a few) extra bucks on the RED StarTech bridge boards because they simply always work and work properly in QS and MDD Macs. I have no idea of the availability of them in Russia but if this turns out to have been the issue all along, it won't surprise me AT ALL.

If necessary, here is a primer on IDE cables and the difference between cable select and plain master/slave ones. It's possible to convert a CS to a M/S to force the recognition of an M/S-only SATA bridge card.
http://unixwiz.net/techtips/ide-cable-select.html

I remember trying to find modern engine parts (hoses etc.) that would work or could be made to work in my 1967 MGB.

     This is not much different at all, and preferable to the Kremlin spyware theory…

[IIO]

 OR a non-cable select cable,

i was thinking about that, too, but didnt say anything because ... how likely is it that someone changes that cable against another one? (and wouldnt OSX also refuse to boot then?)

also, he could fix his problem by simply switching HDDs in that case.

[FBz]

“It now suddenly looks like this may turn out to be yet another SSD bridge adapter that doesn't do cable select problem.
…and it was right here in front of us all the time?”

If only it was really that simple. I do really wish.

Vitaly is not using his adapter in conjunction with another drive on the same cable. I often use a single drive and Bribge adapter (jumpered as Master) in MDDs without problem. And I really wasn’t certain that he was using a Bribge, as the link he provided for the adapter - showed two different adapters (one of which was not a Bribge). Then I found another early image he sent and it certainly looks like a Bribge on the last ATA-100 ribbon cable connector - just as I often use. (He’s also tested it set as a Slave.)

      

AND… as Vitaly cannot even get a conventional HD to accept and boot OS 9 (sans any adapter) it doesn’t sound like the adapter and SSD makes any difference anyway. The thing just will not accept, nor boot from OS 9… regardless of his approach. StarTech or Bribge be damned.

Certainly the StarTechs / Addonics are likely best(?) in MDD two-drive scenarios, but performance-wise and in head-to-head comparisons (even in an MDD) the RXD-629A7-7 adapters are nearly as good and for less money. Compare benchmarks here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5436.msg43799.html#msg43799 / Last year the StarTechs / Addonics were $18-$35 each and the RXD’s were right around $10.00. Need to buy more than one and the cost adds up very quickly for a very minor performance boost - IF any at all. (See the benchmarks in link above.)

Then enter the poor lowly Bribge. If it doesn’t cost very much - then it can’t be any good, right? It’s the all around best value, bang-fer-yer-buck in a single drive / ribbon cable use, in an MDD. We had ‘em for cheap last year and still have plenty left. (U.S. orders only.) And lovely in a Quicksilver or G3 B&W.

Bribge vs. StarTech in a G3 B&W….. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6231.0;attach=9825;image

Other benchmark comparisons (Red vs. Green) in Quicksilvers, Digital Audios and MDDs… are also scattered throughout the forum.
Ain’t no admonishment… just simple facts.

I like Bribges… like I once liked Legos and Lincoln Logs.
      
*Blame the above, Bribge “Quicksilver Hillbilly-Array” on IIO. http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6327.msg47288.html#msg47288
  And the four-stack “pod” does fit under the Quicksilver’s fan. Some assembly required. Not actual size, etc.


Maybe some day the current political B.S. / war will end and sanctions will be lifted. Then mobos, video cards, SSDs and adapters may again traverse the globe. Until then, perhaps this is all now at the point that Vitaly might consider the Mac OS 9.2.2 For Previously Unsupported G4s because the damned thing acts like a FW800 MDD - why not treat it as one? (Joking and not joking.)

[IIO]

hahaha. and good morning.

now that post is true coincidence - where the heck did you got that photo from?

that custom "sidepanel" solution using HDD screws was my temporary end result yesterday after i couldnt find out if a 4-tray metal case for 30-50 dollars will actually fit into a quicksilver CD case.

and i will have to find the fastest adapters you can get for the 2 boot drives. atm all i tried are slower than 70mb/s, which i had with IDE, and it is not acceptable to deteriorate!

(1.board bus= may not be slower than before. 2. sonnet & SSD = for when speed matters. 3.all other connections= speed does not matter for storage.)

And the four-stack “pod” does fit under the Quicksilver’s fan

mine needs to go on top of CD. i planned mine much lower in the beginning until i noticed that it makes more sense to use small HDDs for those cheap adapters on the ACARD.