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[Protools5LEGuy]

We should inform the other forums about this !  This is pretty crazy... 15 years after the OS 9 funeral it is getting a genetic overhaul,
128MB might not seem like much until you consider that 128MB is what many users had in the Classic Mac OS era to run OS 9 and all their applications.

In the big scheme of things, this is quite remarkable

Done. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-os-9-2-2-memory-limit-of-1-5-gb-broken.2048385/

[MacTron]

Would you mind collecting some data for me? A screenshot of this app while Cubase is running, and the details in the Memory panel of the Get Info window for Cubase.

Of course I'll do it, it's a pleasure to participate in this historical thread



I have also added a "About this computer" window, just to remember you that this machine have 1.75 GB of RAM.
 My System and Finder Files have the size values in SIZE resources slightly increased to increase stability.

[MacOS Plus]

  Speaking of 1.75GB of RAM, I just went through hell trying to test a Sawtooth over the limit.  I had a matched set of four 512MB DIMMs available to test with but the machine insisted one of them was "incompatible".  After much screwing around and a whole bunch of necessitated PMU resets I managed to get my only remaining extra 512MB DIMM I could find recognized as 256MB.  Of course all of this nonsense is to be fully expected from a Sawtooth motherboard, but at least getting it to count 1.75GBs of RAM proves this machine should be able to recognize 2GB if given RAM it 'likes'.  I'll see if I can purchase more now that I know it's worth installing.

  In the end I still accomplished to purpose of the test - the RAM gain works on this machine with the latest modified Mac OS ROM.  Thanks to all the time I wasted this morning on this I don't have time to post logs yet.  I can make one interesting observation, and that is System Profiler didn't crash in this config on the Sawtooth.

[ELN]

I didn't realise that Sawteeth could take all that RAM. Cool!

MacTron, your results surprise me. I expected Cubase to have a smaller base memory partition with several Temporary Memory allocations. Does Cubase have any settings concerning how it manages memory? Thanks for the screenshot!

There are roughly two approaches we can take from here. One is to move the fixed areas, and the other is to patch the Process Manager to work around them. Good fun!

[MacOS Plus]

I didn't realise that Sawteeth could take all that RAM. Cool!

  On a related note, have you seen how freaking dirt-cheap PC133 512MB DIMMs are on eBay now?!?  I just bought 16 of them for USD $3.49 a piece and free shipping direct from China.  For that price I don't even care if the Macs don't like them - I'll just use them for my old PC stuff.  It's crazy how much some of this vintage of hardware has depreciated with time!

  Now I should go see how cheap the old DDR RAM is...

<update> Just picked up 20 pieces of PC3200 DDR 512MB DIMMs for USD $2.90 each and free shipping!  At these prices everyone should be stocking up and maxing out their systems.  You really have no excuse!  Even for listings guaranteeing Mac-tested/compatible the prices aren't much higher.

  If anyone else is going to buy RAM, I believe you have to get what's referred to as "low-density" type if you want the best chance of it working in Macs (or many other things, for that matter).  Perhaps someone with decent Apple tech experience in this area can comment further on that.

[MacTron]

MacTron, your results surprise me. I expected Cubase to have a smaller base memory partition with several Temporary Memory allocations.

Most of this memory is filled with near 1.5 GB of sampled instruments, loaded inside Cubase by a VST Plugin ( NI Kompakt ).
Here I take another screenshot with an empty Cubase projet, and the same memory allocation:

Does Cubase have any settings concerning how it manages memory?

No it doesn't, It only have settings on how dual processors are managed, but this is another thing...

[MacTron]

  I figured you would be the first to max it out with synths!  When we eventually get the full two gigs,

The Synths take all the CPU power first, barely use RAM, but the Samplers eat RAM really easily, a good sampled piano can take 1.5 gb of memory. Usually Samplers to save RAM use a hybrid system (like Virtual Memory) from Hard Disk , but this decrease its capabilities a lot . To said it in short.

please give us a report on latency.

To report latency, is a very complex task, because it depends in a huge amount of factors ...

[MacOS Plus]

  I was merely wondering if you'll hit some sort of practical limit for simultaneous instances/instruments depending on what you do with your gained RAM.  Perhaps CPU bandwidth is still going to be the primary bottleneck anyway.  You seem like the right person for the task though!

[MacTron]

  I was merely wondering if you'll hit some sort of practical limit for simultaneous instances/instruments depending on what you do with your gained RAM.  Perhaps CPU bandwidth is still going to be the primary bottleneck anyway.  You seem like the right person for the task though!

I don't want to go off topic into a very important thread like this, but in short:
I only use two virtual instruments, a Synth (NI FM7) and a Sampler (NI Kompakt) in Cubase VST 5. My main computer is a  Single 1.5Ghz MDD. It can open up to 10 instances of FM7 with over 128 notes of polyphony.By the other way,  It can open up to 3 instances of Kompakt with up to 24 instruments at the same time, but this is limited by the amount of RAM available, If I load a 1.5 Gb piano, there is no room for any other instrument. I had a song in stand by for months, because I have reached the maximun instruments load before ending the song. Yesterday I have restarted the work because now  I could add one or two more instruments whit this 128 Mb extra ( a church organ BTW)    ...

[MacOS Plus]

  Okay, thanks, that's very informative.  Most excellent too that the gained RAM has already made a major difference for your project - that's fantastic!  I'd really love to try loading up a 1.5GB piano myself.

[ELN]

I had a song in stand by for months, because I have reached the maximun instruments load before ending the song. Yesterday I have restarted the work because now  I could add one or two more instruments whit this 128 Mb extra ( a church organ BTW)    ...

Cool! How's it going? Do I get a copy?

Another question for you, MacTron. If you reduce Cubase's allocation in the Memory Info panel (say to 512MB), does this actually reduce the number of instruments you can use? Or does Cubase possibly use the Temporary Memory allocation scheme to get around this limit?

[MacTron]

Cool! How's it going? Do I get a copy?

Of Course you can, Everything is in the downloads sections, If you can't' find something just let me know. 

Another question for you, MacTron. If you reduce Cubase's allocation in the Memory Info panel (say to 512MB), does this actually reduce the number of instruments you can use?

If I reduce the Cubase allocation in the Memory Info panel, the amount of memory available is reduced accordingly.
Cubase - as most applications - fill its allocation memory with the contents of its files, in this case with scores, mixing setups, virtual effects and instruments etc ...  the virtual samplers ( loaded inside Cubase)  besides the memory they use for its code and resources, uses memory to store the samples that conform the Sampler instruments, as they are loaded inside Cubase they only have access to the memory in the Cubase partition, not outside it.

Or does Cubase possibly use the Temporary Memory allocation scheme to get around this limit?

No Cubase can't do this. Emagic Logic Audio does.


I have edited this post to add a typical example of sampled instruments memory usage:
500Mb -> Women choir (with all consonants and vowels)
500Mb -> String section ( violin,  violas , cellos, etc) with several articulations (staccato, sustained ...)
500 Mb -> Brass, Woodwind and Percussion.

As you can see a basic setup fill 1.5 Gb of memory and it's hard to insert a piano, an harp or even church organ 


A workaround of this is to play the samples directly from disk instead of loading them to RAM, or at least in part, but the polyphony decreases heavily because this process implies that the samples have to travel from the HD througth the PCI bus etc, and this heavily slowdown the playback performance .

I you have Youtube access here you can see an example of this setup. Everything is rendered in real time in a Mac Os 9 machine -even the video- :
https://youtu.be/faisvdwXjpg

[MacOS Plus]

  Or does Cubase possibly use the Temporary Memory allocation scheme to get around this limit?

No Cubase can't do this. Emagic Logic Audio does.

  This is a useful tidbit I wasn't aware of.  In a program that can't do this, what typically happens if it hits the cap?  I remember one DAW program many years ago I had to use on a Quadra with only 40MB of RAM, and this program had a memory leak that would only let me do about three hours work before I had to save/quit/re-open.  If it was allowed to hit the cap of its allocation it would generally crash with a numbered error, so I had to keep the RAM monitor window open and keep watch over it.  I'm fairly certain the memory leak persisted on later more capable workstations using the same software, but the much larger amount of RAM in the other systems masked over the problem.  I don't know if the problem was related only to the software or if it also was a problem with Mac OS 8.1.  The other, better workstations were running Mac OS 8.6.

[DieHard]

From GeForce4

doing what exactly tho??
wishing on a star? for an alternate universe? where macos9 takes 16gb of ram?

every other os tho, the limitations that were there when the os was current, still apply, this is not linux.
its not open source.. the chances of you guys really modifying + changing functionality of the os is very unlikely.
getting mac os 9 to run on a fw800 is a bit different because its somethng that was purposely disabled
its not something that was an incompatibility that was never overcome by the real developers.. u think there wasnt any
really skilled programmers at apple? who would have loved to advanced their career by coming up with the idea that doubled or quadrupled available ram to the OS???

but a few guys scratchin at notepad on a forums site can do it when the real pros couldnt? i dunno guys...
alot of times the best work is done by accepting + Working within the limitations

I guess there are those above the REAL PROS...

The Ultra-Pros do NOT accept limitations... while changing the rules they bend the universe into submission

128MB... one small step for Mac OS 9, one giant step for User-kind

[SonikArchitects]

This is so amazing I am absolutely speechless. Want this on my main rig asap.
Is there a DL link and instructions?

Just a side thought, there's been a lot of progress with augmenting 9.22 at this point. Maybe the admins could make an area for downloadable augmentations to the system with txt doc's of simple install instructions.

PS, I've showed some folks at Apple this and they are, shall I say, speechless. Literally.
Winning guys. This is incredible.

Best,
_BT

[nanopico]

PS, I've showed some folks at Apple this and they are, shall I say, speechless. Literally.
Winning guys. This is incredible.

I hope it's speechless because they are impressed.

I guess it was only a mater of time before someone tipped off someone at Apple, who knows though, maybe they already know.

Out of curiosity, what's your relationship with the people at Apple that are now informed of this?

[DieHard]

This is so amazing I am absolutely speechless. Want this on my main rig asap.
Is there a DL link and instructions?

Just a side thought, there's been a lot of progress with augmenting 9.22 at this point. Maybe the admins could make an area for downloadable augmentations to the system with txt doc's of simple install instructions.

Best,
_BT

The process is pretty straight forward and has to be implemented Manually at the moment...
1) Own an MDD FW400 System (Only one really tested so far)
2) Replace "ROM" file with ELN/NanoPico Limit breaking ROM and reboot
3) cross your fingers and test your apps

[nanopico]

This is so amazing I am absolutely speechless. Want this on my main rig asap.
Is there a DL link and instructions?

Just a side thought, there's been a lot of progress with augmenting 9.22 at this point. Maybe the admins could make an area for downloadable augmentations to the system with txt doc's of simple install instructions.

Best,
_BT

We are working on a system install

The process is pretty straight forward and has to be implemented Manually at the moment...
1) Own an MDD FW400 System (Only one really tested so far)
2) Replace "ROM" file with ELN/NanoPico Limit breaking ROM and reboot
3) cross your fingers and test your apps

We are working on an installer cd with the ROM and the most current version and drivers that are available here (We are still a bit out on this one).
Although ASR is very good, building an installer that is just like Apple's would make sense on this.
All features of the OS would be available and allow the user to decide what to use. 
The ASR images are great for things like the DAW and other stuff, but if a user doesn't need all that and needs things from the OS that are not in the ASR and universal general install should be used.  I think all and all there should be both options available depending on the end users needs.

From GeForce4

doing what exactly tho??
wishing on a star? for an alternate universe? where macos9 takes 16gb of ram?

every other os tho, the limitations that were there when the os was current, still apply, this is not linux.
its not open source.. the chances of you guys really modifying + changing functionality of the os is very unlikely.
getting mac os 9 to run on a fw800 is a bit different because its somethng that was purposely disabled
its not something that was an incompatibility that was never overcome by the real developers.. u think there wasnt any
really skilled programmers at apple? who would have loved to advanced their career by coming up with the idea that doubled or quadrupled available ram to the OS???

but a few guys scratchin at notepad on a forums site can do it when the real pros couldnt? i dunno guys...
alot of times the best work is done by accepting + Working within the limitations

I guess there are those above the REAL PROS...

The Ultra-Pros do NOT accept limitations... while changing the rules they bend the universe into submission

128MB... one small step for Mac OS 9, one giant step for User-kind

And since you brought it up. Notepad is a pretty cool app. I do use it regularly.

[Irisman]

Absolutely impressive work!!  My hat off!!!

[nanopico]

The process is pretty straight forward and has to be implemented Manually at the moment...
1) Own an MDD FW400 System (Only one really tested so far)
2) Replace "ROM" file with ELN/NanoPico Limit breaking ROM and reboot
3) cross your fingers and test your apps

Although not tested extensively, the ROM has been booted with no issue on the following machines and worked.
PowerMac G4 AGP with GigaDesign CPU upgrade and 2 GB RAM.
PowerBook G3 (Bronze Keyboard)
PowerMac QS

Again remember not a lot of testing, but simple testing.  Almost no extensions used for testing.