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Author Topic: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)  (Read 279892 times)

Jakl

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #140 on: May 10, 2014, 03:58:01 AM »

From this page then some of the older powerbooks and ibooks maybe able to be flashed back to macos9 using
downloadable Firmware.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1395
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SnakeCoils

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #141 on: May 10, 2014, 10:39:24 AM »

For Jakl: I think that a decisive step in the direction of OS9 bootability of all G4 machines is to have a ROM dumper utility first, something that permit to read the firmware of our machines and make a copy on a file we can inspect at byte level. The idea is to do a thing similar to what has already done many years ago to unlock the CD drives to be usable from Mac even if they had not Apple firmware, in that case it was only a matter to edit some datas with ResEdit in the Apple CD/DVD extension of OS9 and every optical drive magically went welcomed by Mac without installing third party drivers.

For DieHard: I have made a screenshot of System Profiler in OS9 that show how the Firewire 800 resource is seen by the system. Here it is.

As you can see the system don't even assign the "Hard Disk" label ("Disco Rigido", in Italian) to the resource but luckily it is correctly recognized as storage and as it is used. Maybe a ResEdit trick could fix the name.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 10:49:31 AM by SnakeCoils »
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DieHard

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #142 on: May 10, 2014, 10:54:39 AM »

Quote
So from what you said Diehard then at the open firmware level everything is opened up at startup - then it's at the startup of the Mac Operating System that depends whether the ports are used or not?

No, I am NOT saying that... Let's NOT confuse Open firmware with SMC Firmware Updates

Quote
Apple's Open Firmware is part of their ROM-in-RAM design approach originally used in the first iMac systems. The approach uses a small ROM that contains sufficient code to initialize the hardware and load an operating system. The rest of the system code, that on previous Mac systems (old world) resided on a physical ROM (chip) is now loaded from disk or from network into RAM. Open Firmware is part of this "New World" boot system.

So as my understanding is... open firmware is at a higher level than the actual SMC firmware... and thus you can use Open firmware commands to re-burn read only hardware updates into SMC firmware and NOT effect the Open Firmware itself.

Any experts that can better explain the relationship between the SMC / Firmware and OS ROM... please "chime" in...

Startup Sequence... As explained by apple... in the simplest way...
1. Turn on the computer.
2. Hardware self-test.
3. Mac OS starts up.
4. Search for a startup disk.
5. System file is found and opens.
6. System extensions load.
7. Finder opens.
8. Startup Items open.

#2 & #3 are obviously more involved, and where most of our discussion comes from.  We have all heard of "Resetting the SMC" on a G4.
Quote
The SMC (System Management Controller) controls a number of the Mac's core functions. The SMC is a chunk of hardware incorporated into the Mac's motherboard. Its purpose is to free the Mac's processor from having to actively take care of rudimentary hardware functions.
So basically this "Chunk of Hardware" is obviously a chip or series of chips that are physically located on the MB, and some values that these chips hold can be cleared (By hitting the SMC" reset button and giving a small voltage zap) and thus new "correct" values will be re-read and re-written into the SMC upon power on and the SMC will see everything peachy and BAM... a familiar C Chord Chime will be heard.

Quote
Depending on your Mac model, the SMC performs the following functions:     
Responds to the press of the power button, including deciding whether the press is for a power off, sleep
Detects and responds to the opening or closing of the lid of a portable Mac.
Manages a portable's battery performance, including charging, calibration, and displaying remaining battery time.
Thermal management of your Mac's interior. This is primarily accomplished by sensing temperature at various places inside your Mac, and then adjusting fan speed to create or reduce airflow.
And... a whole bunch of other stuff :)

Quote
Step 2: Hardware Self-Test
After the computer is turned on, different "managers" in the computer's read-only memory begin to function. The first is the Start Manager. It makes sure that certain hardware components on the computer's logic board are working, including the microprocessor, read-only memory, drives, ports, expansion slots, and memory (RAM).
The startup sound you hear when you turn on the computer indicates that the Start Manager has successfully completed its tests. You will also see the raster (gray desktop) on the screen, along with the pointer.
If one of the Start Manager tests fails, you may hear a series of tones (sometimes called "error tones" or "death chimes") see a "sad Macintosh" icon on the screen The kind of tones you hear will vary depending on the Macintosh model, and on the kind of component(s) that failed the test.

So when we talk about updating firmware... I believe we are talking about updating SMC firmware or more exactly updating the read only executable code that communicates directly with the SMC chips (or series of chips).  In our experiment the system management controller hardware on the MDD FW400 and MDD FW800 are obviously close enough that the Startup manager sees all values from the SMC as cool and chimes (if not, Blitter would have gotten error beeps and no Chime after the force burn)... and thus a "dead" MDD.

Since the SMC communicates directly with the hardware on the MB at a very basic level... I am guessing it is seeing the FW800 ports as FW400 Ports upon boot sequence (and does NOT look for 800 ports, since a FW400 MDD does not have any)... after boot sequence in OS X... I can only guess that OS X drivers get some values from the SMC (temperature and other stuff) but access the FW ports directly and ignore where the SMC says they are... where as OS 9 may rely more on what the SMC says and not look for something the SMC does not see.

- Diehard

PS: I could be 100% wrong with this post...hehehe
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 11:13:08 AM by DieHard »
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DieHard

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #143 on: May 10, 2014, 11:10:12 AM »

Quote
In OS9 the stock Firewire 400 ports does not work anymore! Only the FW800 does! :-(

To further support the theory....

Quote
fw6093, 10483

Is the exact value I get under OS 9.2.2 with FW400; and thus it does appear that OS 9 is assuming (and mapping) the FW800 port to the FW400 Port.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 11:38:15 AM by DieHard »
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MacTron

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #144 on: May 10, 2014, 12:49:34 PM »

I insist on my theory:

On a MDD FW400 the branch of Firewire is:

U2 -------->FW400(1)

U2 -------->FW400(2)

On a MDD FW800 the branch of Firewire is:

U2 -------->FW800(1)

U2 -------->FW800(2)-------->FW400(2)
                              -------->FW400(3)

As we are using Mac Os 9 on this unsupported mac,  Mac Os 9 uses his drivers to FW800(1) and fortunately  it works, but a FW400 speed.
Mac os 9 do the same to FW800(2) but unfortunately it drivers can't understand the branch of FW400(2) and FW400(3) and that's why it can't work.

Mac Os X Fw800 drivers understand this very well so no problems.


PS: I could be 150% wrong with this post... 50% more wrong than DieHard LOL
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Jakl

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #145 on: May 11, 2014, 01:18:23 AM »

Booted into MacOS9 - have FW800 HD plugged in and turned on -
my reading on System Profiler is:

Firewire 2.8.7 - fw609e, 10483

Firewire 800 HD reading correctly. 2 partitions - 1 Leopard and 1 Tiger.

Have a USB stick on MDD Motherboard USB port - Detected correctly naming it USB 5
because I have a 3 port USB card installed as well.
However USB 4 is being called Hub in my Studio Display. and runs the mouse and keyboard.
I have a EyeTV USB stick in the 3 Port USB card which is detected alright. Namely USB 0 Port.
(This card works well in 10.4.11)
I have 3 spare ports.

Now here are some things I've never seen before;

The USB stick I mentioned on the MDD Motherboard USB port - named USB 5 is showing up
also on my Internal ATA 3(ATA100) bus with my main Partitioned Hard Drive(OSX and OS9).

My Hard Drive Icon for MacOS9 is a folder with an image of a Mac(Never seen it before).

Attached an image for you to see. It's a bit of a pizza image i.e. 3 photo images joined together.
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Jakl

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #146 on: May 11, 2014, 03:55:57 PM »

As I retrace my steps concerning my previous post I maybe able to explain the
icon for the HD - if it is right?

Before I did the Open Firmware downgrade I did a Norton Utilities(NU) Disk Doctor(DD)
check and also NU Speed Disk(SD) to get everything nice before I took the image of the HD.
NU had many minor errors about bundle bits for icons which I think I corrected - maybe
it put that icon itself - don't know, but I have never seen that icon before even though I have
used NU DD many times before correcting similar minor errors.

In booting into Macos9 on that HD that icon is what represents my HD.

Can't explain the misinterpretation of the USB and ATA100 buses by the System Profiler though.
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2014, 08:51:18 AM »

Amazingly glad you got sorted Jakl;)   -afro- way cool dude
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Jakl

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #148 on: May 24, 2014, 12:54:57 AM »

Thanks Chris
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IIO

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #149 on: May 27, 2014, 05:40:26 PM »


netpresenz is a killer app.

if you want something ultra easy, try the hotline ftp server, which has literally no other preferences to set than the folder which should be shared. :)
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Mat

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2014, 08:11:53 PM »

Wow, I thought first it is the next one of the houndreds of threads outside that ends with the conclusion that it is not possible at all. I am really stunned that you got Mac OS 9 running at unsupported FW 800 G4s. Great work!

Before trying G5s (what I expect to be much harder, but who knows), is there some brave person outside who might try it with one of the later G4 Powerbooks? This would be a very huge improvement for us 9 users as the later 2005/2006 models have twice of the performance of the "officially Mac OS 9 bootable" Powerbooks. A 1670MHz G4 Book with 167MHz systembus a 128MB graphiccard and 1,5 GB of 4200 DDR SDRAM sounds like a hell of a 9-machine! ;)
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MacTron

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #151 on: May 31, 2014, 02:52:44 AM »

... about FW800 Mac Os 9 booting:
-No Fw800, No USB 2... but I had read long time ago that this is posible.
:) :)


... about later G4 Powerbooks Mac Os 9 booting:
There was a half-successful try. I can try to find the info but this must be posted in a new topic if interested...

... about first G5s Mac Os 9 booting:
In short: imposible.
A very different northbrige, and lot of different moderboard components...
There was some unsuccessful works. I can try to find the info but this must be posted in a new topic also if interested...
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #152 on: May 31, 2014, 03:58:48 AM »

hmmm just checked the powerbooks that came after the 1ghz

models incl: 1.25ghz, 1.33ghz, 1.5ghz, 1.67ghz

would be amazing to have a portable 1.67ghz g4 running os 9!!!!
who on the board has any of these powerbooks>???
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cyberish

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #153 on: June 01, 2014, 11:44:48 AM »

Hi Chris

I've got one of those 1,67 ghz Powerbooks and I would love to have a native Mac OS 9 on it  ;D

Are then the only two things to consider to install from another Mac OS 9 machine the apple hd driver and then to implant that MacOS ROM  9.8.1 on it?

I want to try soonish

raphael
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #154 on: June 01, 2014, 06:35:51 PM »

cyberish i suggest u re-read the thread and the relevant info will become clear for you;)
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cyberish

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #155 on: June 02, 2014, 12:20:48 AM »

... i just did  :o thx
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Cloaked Alien

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #156 on: June 13, 2014, 07:26:30 AM »

Jumping in here! I've got an old iMac G4 (the iLamp). Not 100% sure right now but I think it's the 1GHz 17" model which can't run OS9. The machine is pretty much without purpose right now since I can't find any good use for it. I'd be one happy camper if I got OS 9 running on it!

I've skimmed through the thread and I understand it that it might be possible to downgrade the firmware even on this model?

I'm savvy enough to install Lubuntu / OS X dual boot on it. I also own a G4 Cube that runs OS 9. For obvious reasons I'd prefer to have the Globe running OS9.

While I expect to get told to read the entire thread again I'm hoping I could get some quick advice on the futility of my goal. This machine deserves some proper love for sure!
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MacTron

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #157 on: June 13, 2014, 08:17:03 AM »

As there is some people interested in to Mac os 9 boot on other unsupported Macs I'll open new threads to discuss each specific model issues, and to keep this important thread in to his original sense "MDD Firewire 800" and to solve further questions on this topic.

So for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iMac G4 please post on :
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1173.0

and for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iBook G4 please post on:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1174.0

and for Mac Os 9 boot on other unsupported models, please open new threads...
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #158 on: June 13, 2014, 07:49:38 PM »

While I expect to get told to read the entire thread again I'm hoping I could get some quick advice on the futility of my goal. This machine deserves some proper love for sure!

its not futile at all
the first challenge is locating a firmware file for the G4 imac that DOES support os9..
if one is not posted online somehow u must find an actual g4 imac physically and use the openfirmware FORTH language to dump its rom file to a file
this is possible but would require some education on the openfirmware language (mac forth)
or perhaps there is one posted in the same way that the other fw400 MDD rom update was found..
perhaps theres a repository of firmware updates somewhere?
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Cloaked Alien

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #159 on: June 14, 2014, 03:52:39 AM »

So for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iMac G4 please post on :
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1173.0

Thank you! I'll continue my post there and I hope others will join in =)
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