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Author Topic: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)  (Read 279891 times)

MacTron

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #200 on: November 14, 2014, 07:10:04 PM »

protoolsle5guy;
what makes u think that the key to making anything work is to disable soemthing in openfirmware?
i saw u comment about this before, earlier, perhaps in this very thread, it was in reference to the firewire 800 ports...the presence of the firewire 800 ports is not what stops the mac os boot...

It has a lot of sense. In this way we can isolate and identify what it was causing the Mac Os 9 boot crash. Unless it was the CPU, the RAM or the intrepid IC. LOL


i havent seen many of us really discuss the particulars of what actually happens during a mac os 9 boot ..
...
perhaps it would be helpful to alll minds readin this thread to revisit in another thread the following:
a) the specifics of what actually happens .. chain of events. order of operations... during a mac os boot...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1965.msg9990#msg9990

b) why the firmware rollback of the mdd fw800 to fw400 worked + what exactly it changed that enabled it to work

This was a dangerous and Brute Force method. Thank god it was successful, but it could render the machine unusable forever. And really it was only a question of Mac Os ROM and/or open firmware commands.

-No Fw800, No USB 2... but I had read long time ago that this is posible.

-Format an HD with Mac Os 9 drivers.
-Use a Mac Os ROM version 10.2
-Force the startup with this HD.
... I never tested this, but may help ...

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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #201 on: November 14, 2014, 07:22:32 PM »

> http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1965.msg9990#msg9990
thats strange i dont understand how i could have missed this post.. october 30th?? 2 weeks ago

dont misunderstand these questions as coming from myself... im simply stating that there is a good chance of there being benefit of this information being refreshed for *any reader* of this thread.. for the collective minds to be coming from a solid platform of understanding... rather then having people suggest that we turn things on/off in openfirmware hoping + praying for this to make a huge difference when it wont.. ;D
or hoping for new graphics drivers to be written.. dont hold your breath ;D lol i think theres a bettr chance of being hit by lightning and winning the lottery in the same day..

i dont agree with calling it a dangerous + brute force method at all. the machines are almost identical
it simply undid a change in the combination of machinefirmware / openfirmware settngs code that was placed there on purpose by apple to disable the mac os 9 bootability.
there is no technical reason blocking it from working.. it was deliberate + intentional to disable the os.
as intentional as it was to hold a public funeral.. it doesnt get more deliberate + intentional then that.

the execution of loading of the toolbox image/chrp script was disabled at the openfirmware level..
breaking the chain of events that would lead to a possible boot.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 07:36:59 PM by chrisNova777 »
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #202 on: November 14, 2014, 07:31:45 PM »

protoolsle5guy;
what makes u think that the key to making anything work is to disable soemthing in openfirmware?

reading the threads + posts here i feel that alot of u are out of synch with each other in terms of understanding + in depth knowledge + familiarity with the relevant specifics
perhaps it would be helpful to alll minds readin this thread to revisit in another thread the following:
a) the specifics of what actually happens .. chain of events. order of operations... during a mac os boot..
b) why the firmware rollback of the mdd fw800 to fw400 worked + what exactly it changed that enabled it to work
c) why the changes in the mac os rom edited by imic has enabled a boot WITHOUT a firmware downgrade

i think getting everyone on the same page in understanding these facts will provide groundwork for the next ssteps.

iMic has made rom edit+openfirmware to achieve last results.

I know there out is a guy that shutoffs the internal graphics of a beige G3 in openfirmware to get to Leopard (to use a 9200 PCI). Why not do the same to get a MacMini headless OS9 DAW? Yes, I know that the boot disk should be "baked" on a OS9 working machine before trying in the Mini(To install OS9 drivers and VNC).

Also, to shut-down the graphics is the last resource after all the remaining  devices been discarted as OS9'ability blockers. If this thing do not work, a full reset of the machine (PMU and PRAM) should be necesary to take back to life the mini.

I think you can not "make a brick" of a PowerMac with bad OpenFirmware commands, but it seems that the OpenFirmware level of iMic is way ahead ours... MacTron has said that was dangerous. I think that a good total reset (Days without the 3.6 battery +PRAM reset+PMU) can bring to live most fucked things. But better to be safe.

The wound that never heals is cured now.  ;D

We can boot OS9 with 2 differents methods on FW800 machines. Downgrade and Rom edition.

This last method seems to work for the iBook from iMic. But not on the MacMini. That lead DieHard that maybe the trouble was not having source of graphics drivers



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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #203 on: November 14, 2014, 07:41:49 PM »

i understand your reasoning about the problem of the greyscreen being graphics drivers..
this makes sense to me much in the same way that my powermac g3 450mhz wont boot if i have the radeon 7000 card installed on a vanilla install of 8.6 or 9.0  but it works fine with 9.1 + 9.2 - i wrote recently saying i had to replace the ati rage 128 to be able to install... suggesting that anyone with a g3 absolutely must keep this rage 128 card for situations like this.. but hoping for someone to develop new graphics drivers is a huuuuuuge longshot ;D but its understandable given the history here this thread started frm a silly post like that about *impossible things* not so long ago right ;D lol lol ptleguy thinks hey.. fuck it . why not try to start a new miracle thread ;D hahahah

but: re graphics cards / drivers being the cause of non-boot
dont  forget that japamac claimed to hav booted mac os 9 on many unsupported video cards.. such as the radeon 9800 etc (albeit without 'accelleration')
looking back to the thread of filiphuezen or whatever did he get a grey screen on boot with his radeon 9200?
his card never worked untill he used the freshdraginstall with updated video drivers
which leads me to ask: which install was iMic using with the above test?
and which versions of the ati driver extensions
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #204 on: November 14, 2014, 07:55:06 PM »


which leads me to ask: which install was iMic using with the above test?
and which versions of the ati driver extensions

He said he is using DieHard Drag'n'drop with 10.x AppleRomRamWhatever is called.

Who is the one a little late on news now, Chris?  ;D ;D ;D ;D

That is why I told ten post before
 

I only know of Radeon 9200 PCI working on G3s B&W on OS9. Not sure what drivers you should use for AGP. Maybe 2003' ATI drivers update...


I have to remind you all that after installing the drivers/extensions to use a Radeon 9000 on a DA, after returning the card to owner, the system couldn't boot with only a RAGE 128Pro.
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #205 on: November 14, 2014, 09:36:13 PM »

i understand your reasoning about the problem of the greyscreen being graphics drivers..
Mine, iMic, MacTron or DieHard approach?    :P

this makes sense to me much in the same way that my powermac g3 450MHz wont boot if i have the radeon 7000 card installed on a vanilla install of 8.6 or 9.0  but it works fine with 9.1 + 9.2 - i wrote recently saying i had to replace the ati rage 128 to be able to install... suggesting that anyone with a g3 absolutely must keep this rage 128 card for situations like this..

Oranges and Apples?

but hoping for someone to develop new graphics drivers is a huuuuuuge longshot ;D but its understandable given the history here this thread started frm a silly post like that about *impossible things* not so long ago right ;D lol lol ptleguy thinks hey.. fuck it . why not try to start a new miracle thread ;D hahahah

>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I do not know how to politely answer you. But I will try. Even after you insulting the work of MacTron, Syntho, Jakl, DieHard, lokki, SnakeCoils, Blitter, blemk, iMic and even yours own efforts calling it a
Quote
a silly post like that about impossible things
.I honestly was just asking publicly to DieHard and diehard MacOS9 users if they were aware of HardWare/Software Mods to achieve that.

Most humans-catolics after seen a miracle became believers/develop faith.   :P   But you...  :(

We, now, having more than 700 members and growing, have the advantage of having many OldSkool users and artists, Internet Archive (WayBackMachine), actual cost of PowerMacs and a passion to use these machines to the limits (MacTron beyond them  ;D ). This thing is growing. We were/are in contact with Classic-HasClass (His blog is funny and formative) and soon more developers could join us, (hopefully some former Nvidia/ATI developer) maybe filling the gaps in documentation we have in graphic devices today.

Yeah, I know this is wishfull thinking, and you even laught about it,  but who knows? The partnership between MacOS9Lives! and ThinkClassic is giving unsuspected results. The more who join us, the easiest to know a guy who knows a guy that do @@@

Also Nostalgia of better times play on ouf favor...  ;D


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iMic

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2014, 10:37:51 PM »

iMic,

You have already inspired many, where ever you go from here is gravy... thank you for all the hard work... it reminds me of the days we used to use Norton disk edit in MS DOS to Hex out License keys from DBase software Applications (same concept to keep the file the same number of Bytes)... excellent work :)

Admittedly most of it was trial and error over a span of several months, and thankfully most of the data that needed to be modified (such as the machine identifier list) was stored in plain text in the Resource Fork. Anything more involved than that and my knowledge hits its limitations. Like editing the bits of an old DOS application though, it's always a thrill when it all comes together and works at the end. :)


iMic. Even with most of us been OS9 centric, We,  as part of the living PowerPC community have to give thanks to you also for the develop of Leopard Assist. You have broke barriers in both sides of the wall. You have made TigerOnly computers go Leo and OSXonly computers go back to OS9. THANKS for been a truly liberator.

Thanks for the encouraging comments. :) Most of these tools, be it the OS 9 ROM or LeopardAssist, were usually developed because I had a need for them myself. With LeopardAssist, it was because my 733MHz QuickSilver G4 fell short of the 867MHz requirement. With this ROM project, it was because I wanted to see OS 9 boot on an iBook G4. It's always nice to share the finished product though so others can benefit from the work as well.

With LeopardAssist being updated to version 3 in January, the launch of ThinkClassic in May and now this new ROM release, it's certainly been a busy year here for older Mac related projects.


I think you can not "make a brick" of a PowerMac with bad OpenFirmware commands, but it seems that the OpenFirmware level of iMic is way ahead ours... MacTron has said that was dangerous.

This last method seems to work for the iBook from iMic. But not on the MacMini. That lead DieHard that maybe the trouble was not having source of graphics drivers

I wouldn't suggest my knowledge of Open Firmware is extensive... I think I've bashed around in Open Firmware more in the last three days or so than I have in my entire life combined prior to this experiment. I'm still finding out new things here and there as I go along.

Interestingly I have managed to brick one Logic Board with bad Open Firmware commands. My Sawtooth (AGP Graphics) Power Mac G4 failed after a botched write to the NVRAM with an early test version of LeopardAssist in 2008. I never did figure out entirely what caused the machine to react so badly to it.

For what it's worth, the iBook lacks graphics drivers as well. It's locked to Millions of Colours and 1024 x 768 as a result, and a patch is needed to disable the second display. It's rather frustrating as I had hoped to run SimCity 2000 on the iBook, but of course it needs to switch down to 256 colour mode to run, which this machine can't do.


i dont agree with calling it a dangerous + brute force method at all. the machines are almost identical
it simply undid a change in the combination of machinefirmware / openfirmware settngs code that was placed there on purpose by apple to disable the mac os 9 bootability.
there is no technical reason blocking it from working.. it was deliberate + intentional to disable the os.
as intentional as it was to hold a public funeral.. it doesnt get more deliberate + intentional then that.

the execution of loading of the toolbox image/chrp script was disabled at the openfirmware level..
breaking the chain of events that would lead to a possible boot.

I don't have a FW800 MDD myself otherwise I'd test this theory, but did Apple actually place a block in the firmware to prevent OS 9 from running? To me it seems that the likely change was the switch from MacRISC2 to MacRISC3 in the FW800's firmware, which prevented the Mac OS ROM from being classed as a valid boot file on the machine. Perhaps this altered ROM, with the added MacRISC3 compatible flag, would permit a successful boot into Mac OS 9 without having to flash an older firmware version on the machine?


i understand your reasoning about the problem of the greyscreen being graphics drivers..
this makes sense to me much in the same way that my powermac g3 450mhz wont boot if i have the radeon 7000 card installed on a vanilla install of 8.6 or 9.0  but it works fine with 9.1 + 9.2 - i wrote recently saying i had to replace the ati rage 128 to be able to install... suggesting that anyone with a g3 absolutely must keep this rage 128 card for situations like this.. but hoping for someone to develop new graphics drivers is a huuuuuuge longshot ;D but its understandable given the history here this thread started frm a silly post like that about *impossible things* not so long ago right ;D lol lol ptleguy thinks hey.. fuck it . why not try to start a new miracle thread ;D hahahah

but: re graphics cards / drivers being the cause of non-boot
dont  forget that japamac claimed to hav booted mac os 9 on many unsupported video cards.. such as the radeon 9800 etc (albeit without 'accelleration')
looking back to the thread of filiphuezen or whatever did he get a grey screen on boot with his radeon 9200?
his card never worked untill he used the freshdraginstall with updated video drivers

I'm curious to see how much a contributing factor the graphics chip plays in holding up the Mac OS 9 boot process. As I mentioned above, the onboard GPU isn't detected correctly by OS 9 in this iBook either, however that doesn't stop it from booting.

As it stands the boot attempt on the Mac Mini is being halted before the Happy Mac even appears, suggesting that it isn't even reaching the point where extensions or graphics drivers would come into play. Of course, I could be mistaken.


which leads me to ask: which install was iMic using with the above test?
and which versions of the ati driver extensions

As was mentioned above by Protools5LEGuy, I'm using the 922 Drag Install with Mac OS ROM 10.2.1. I've also tested the machine with the ATI Radeon 9200 Mac Edition drivers and the ATI 2005 Driver Update, however neither of these have had any effect on any of these machines whatsoever.


Yeah, I know this is wishfull thinking, and you even laught about it,  but who knows? The partnership between MacOS9Lives! and ThinkClassic is giving unsuspected results. The more who join us, the easiest to know a guy who knows a guy that do @@@

It's fairly impressive what can be achieved when our communities work together, isn't it? Personally I think it's been fantastic collaborating with Mac OS 9 Lives on this project. Some of the information here has been extremely valuable, especially the documentation and threads on Open Firmware.
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2014, 10:55:30 PM »

changing one 2 to a 3... ?
1 digit? could it be actually 1 digit that prevents the os9 boot?
my understanding already was that it was something preventing some part of the loading mechanism from recognizing the toolbox image as valid....
now that i consider the impact of this (macrisc2 vs macrisc3) it is logical that this could indeed be the reason

but!! does this logic also fit with the truths that were held previously:

-placing a fw800 cpu into a fw400 logic board resulted in a mac os 9 bootable system,
-replacing a fw400 cpu into a fw800 logicboard resulted in a nonbooting system

is it the cpu or the motherboard that determines if it is 'macrisc2' or 'macrisc3'
this seems to be stored in the firmware.. so.. if it is in the firmware... this is the only
explanation as to why replacing the old fw400 mobo with a new cpu still works.. and the opposite
(fw400 cpu in a fw800 mobo) does not..

so yea what u have done is to hack the rom to allow booting from the native cpu type..
effectively changing the equality of a programmatic check to ring true rather then false
allowing the boot to proceed.. genius..
i personally thought there was more to it then 1 digit...
involving all areas
ie: machine firmware, openfirmware, the chrp portion of the mac os rom, and the tbxi image contained within the mac os rom
so really you have just edited the chrp/elf portion of the mac os rom

so to think logically... the 10.2.1 rom file was created for the mdd's as far as we have established
keepin in mind that the single rom file is , in fact an actual script /w an embedded toolbox image..
theres 2 variables there.. thetoolbox image has to match the hardware.... and the script, as u have established, has to also support the hardware/processor type.

i wonder if u could somehow save this 'macrisc3' property into nv-ram in openfirmware with the right parameter name and make this a lot easier.. in that u could quickly test it on many machines without even copying a file, just doing a quick OFW boot..


as it says on wiki:
Quote
One major difference between Old World ROM Macs and New World ROM Macs, at least in classic Mac OS, is that the Gestalt selector for the machine type is no longer usable; all New World ROM Macs use the same mach ID, 406 decimal, and the actual machine ID is encoded in the "model" and "compatible" properties of the root node of the Open Firmware device tree. The New World ROM also sets the "compatible" property of the root node to "MacRISC2" (machines that can boot classic Mac OS using "Mac OS ROM") or "MacRISC3" (machines that can only boot OS X or another Unix-like system).

if it is indeed the "macrisc3" string that enables/disables boot.. this info is contained in *the root node of the open firmware device tree* with property name "compatible"
can't we just overwrite this parameter in openfirmware nv-ram?? rather then having to change the 'mac os rom' ??....


but i have also seen this comptatible node in CHRP script so does this property exist in both the mac os rom as well as the openfirmware device tree.. and the chrp script is comparing the values??
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 07:05:25 AM by chrisNova777 »
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #208 on: November 14, 2014, 11:11:22 PM »



Yeah, I know this is wishfull thinking, and you even laught about it,  but who knows? The partnership between MacOS9Lives! and ThinkClassic is giving unsuspected results. The more who join us, the easiest to know a guy who knows a guy that do @@@

It's fairly impressive what can be achieved when our communities work together, isn't it? Personally I think it's been fantastic collaborating with Mac OS 9 Lives on this project. Some of the information here has been extremely valuable, especially the documentation and threads on Open Firmware.

You and MacTron have folks everywhere...  ;D Maybe we could join some friends from 68kla, and MacRumors too. DieHard said :

Quote
The Mac OS 9 Lives Forum will now be dedicated to...
1) Installing, Maintaining, and Extending the functionality of Mac OS 9
2) Installing Digital Audio Software & Music/MIDI Hardware interfaces
3) General questions for Mac OS 9 enthusiasts.


And the point 1 and 3 are really close to ThinkClassic. Also that spirit is present on some 68kla users and in a small degree in MacRumors PowerPC forums, been those last more centric on OSX. We all use the same machines. Tower of Babylon thing, because everyone have a point in their opinions. Most Graphic designer were happy going to OSX...http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1721626&highlight=os9
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #209 on: November 14, 2014, 11:24:15 PM »

i think ptleguy is drunk
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #210 on: November 14, 2014, 11:33:00 PM »

i think ptleguy is drunk
Drunk people always say the truth.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Cheers!
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iMic

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2014, 01:02:33 AM »

if it is indeed the "macrisc3" string that enables/disables boot.. this info is contained in *the root node of the open firmware device tree* with property name "compatible"
can't we just overwrite this parameter in openfirmware nv-ram?? rather then having to change the 'mac os rom' ??....


The Mac OS ROM checks for MacRISC or MacRISC2 when determining whether the computer can start booting into Mac OS 9. Adding MacRISC or MacRISC2 to the compatible property will allow this check to pass without using a modified ROM.

In the second stage of the boot, the ROM checks to see whether the model identifier (so PowerBook4,3 for example) is listed as compatible in the ROM.

You can fix both of these issues in NVRAM without a modified ROM, like so:

Code: [Select]
dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

To make it apply automatically with each boot:

Quote
nvedit

dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

(Press Ctrl + C)

nvstore

setenv use-nvramrc? true

reset-all

Replace PowerBook4,3 with the model identifier of a Mac OS 9 compatible Mac. Take my iBook G4 for example. It's a PowerBook6,3, but because Mac OS 9 doesn't recognise that model, it crashes with an Error Type 102 on startup. If I tell the NVRAM that the computer is a PowerBook4,3 though (iBook G3), Mac OS 9 will start to boot successfully.

The reason I patched the Mac OS ROM is because if the NVRAM ever clears, the machine will be rendered unbootable until you re-enter these commands into the NVRAM.
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MacTron

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #212 on: November 15, 2014, 02:39:31 AM »


so to think logically... the 10.2.1 rom file was created for the mdd's as far as we have established
Not in the sense you'll think. IMHO
Quote
keepin in mind that the single rom file is , in fact an actual script /w an embedded toolbox image..

... and a real extension and upgrade of the System file... and may be, few things more.

It's fairly impressive what can be achieved when our communities work together, isn't it? Personally I think it's been fantastic collaborating with Mac OS 9 Lives on this project.

Absolutely agree.  :)

Quote
Some of the information here has been extremely valuable, especially the documentation and threads on Open Firmware.

Those post was placed by myself (including some from Think Classic) due to a similar project with a xServe, and to avoid some dangerous reflashing fever around here. But seems that few or nobody have read them... LOL

This xServe projet is in standby mode by now, in waiting for the hardware to arrive...
A lot of thing are more clear now... but even if the xServe Mac Os 9 boot process, stops like the Mini, we'll try to learn something new.
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #213 on: November 15, 2014, 07:03:06 AM »


Those post was placed by myself (including some from Think Classic) due to a similar project with a xServe, and to avoid some dangerous reflashing fever around here. But seems that few or nobody have read them... LOL


Reading and Fully Understanding are two different things.
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supernova777

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #214 on: November 15, 2014, 07:07:16 AM »

Code: [Select]
dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

To make it apply automatically with each boot:

Quote
nvedit

dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

(Press Ctrl + C)

nvstore

setenv use-nvramrc? true

reset-all
excellent post ;0 thank you!
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blemk

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #215 on: November 18, 2014, 06:27:43 PM »

Wow.. Barely got to touch my two MDDs (400/800) in the last few weeks yet.... come back to this thread after joining and mentioning the threads from both forums and man you guys moved fast when combining information.   Looks like FW800 should be a breeze with modified Mac OS ROM (or without) with a few Open Firmware commands. Just starting to escape work, but once I do I will give it a go on FW800 MDD..  So exciting  :D
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blemk

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #216 on: November 18, 2014, 06:50:56 PM »

Hmm. Finished reading through 3 threads (2 here, one ThinkClassic where iMic's thread is)..

Modified Mac OS ROM with generic MacRISCX entries takes care of Mac OS ROM..  Next thing that comes to mind to kill off another need for the simple open firmware identity spoofing, would be patched last version of DiskUtility that is likely doing it's own check when deciding to display the "Mac OS 9 Driver" option. Other thoughts that come to mind, what if we DD read a raw device (disk that has Mac OS 9 driver) and a very small partition on it (blank even) and DD write it back to a disk you want to use for Mac OS 9?  Would result in the required driver and partition structure being present (although potentially a very small and useless partition size). But partition size could simply be resized to a bigger size after the dd write put down the required driver/partition as DiskUtility will not longer be needed to create the driver.

From there, iMic already noted it, if we build a new bootable OS 9 CD that has the generic modified rom, we can restore Mac OS and do blessing from Mac OS 9 CD..

Given all of the above (actually being possible), would go down as:

Needed:   1 Modified Mac OS 9 bootable CD image with modified Mac OS ROM, 1 DD created image of small Mac OS 9 driver partitioned disk.

Process:

1. DD write image to new disk for use as OS 9.
2. Resize partition to take space desired on disk for OS 9 partition
3. Boot modified Mac OS 9 boot cd with generic ROM.
4. Restore OS 9, copy modified rom if not in image/system-folder, and bless from within OS booting from CD rom.

Some of above would be even easier for those not familiar with raw disk images from DD and similar if a modified DiskUtility from OS X could be made, but I could see dropping a raw disk image from Linux or windows (on a non- Apple OS) easily enough.

Thoughts? Ramblings of a mad man that bare has one of these pre-OS X macs up in running in his living room?  :o
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iMic

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #217 on: November 18, 2014, 11:32:01 PM »

Modified Mac OS ROM with generic MacRISCX entries takes care of Mac OS ROM..  Next thing that comes to mind to kill off another need for the simple open firmware identity spoofing, would be patched last version of DiskUtility that is likely doing it's own check when deciding to display the "Mac OS 9 Driver" option.


It looks like the series check is being performed in Disk Utility.app > Contents > MacOS > Disk Utility. I've opened the Panther version (10.3.5, Disk Utility v10.4.3) with a hex editor and sure enough it contains the following line:

Code: [Select]
/compatibleIOService:/MacRISCMacRISC2
I've altered this to also include MacRISC3 and MacRISC4. I've also trimmed some of the blank space so the file retains the same byte count (0x4C6BC). I'll attempt to start up from the Panther CD and launch the patched version later to see if it works.

I'd imagine that older and newer releases of Disk Utility are the same or very similar.
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blemk

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #218 on: November 28, 2014, 01:55:00 PM »

So.. Holiday over and a day of vacation.. ..   The real FW400 machine is almost completely ready (short of some more software installs), but used it for some testing with the FW800.

Interesting note, MacRISC2 is present on the FW400 but MacRISC (no number revision) is not. Buy I have had to add MacRISC to the FW800 to get it to boot OS 9 with a 9.6.x (forgot what version) Mac OS ROM file. Haven't tested with 10.2.x Mac OS ROM (modified by imic or unmodified yet).

Anyway, ran into an interesting read about an open firmware hack/mod for enable hibernate like functionality on older G4 hardware in Mac OS 10.4.x. I mention it, because it made me think of Mac OS X "nvram" command/app.  https://matt.ucc.asn.au/apple/machibernate.html

Haven't tested this (will later today), but modified a script posted on the above site (very simple script, and very slight change) to allow you to make the needed changes to nvramrc (so the open firmware changes are done on each boot like imic noted).. But likely easier for someone not comfortable with open firmware. This should run from a OS X setup disk so you can boot the OS X disk, run the script, reboot again to OS X setup disk or OS X install if you prefer, and then be able to run Disk Utility and be presented with the "OS 9 Drivers" option when partitioning/formatting a drive for OS 9. Otherwise, it is a nice way to restore the nvramrc script if you ever clear your nvram (intentionally or otherwise) and eliminates the need for the modded Mac OS ROM if you have nay reason to not use it.

Code: [Select]
#!/bin/sh
echo Enabling OS 9 booting...
echo "You may have to enter your password"
# Use nvram command to setup nvramrc with script to make open firmware changes
sudo nvram nvramrc='" /" select-dev
" PowerMac3,6" encode-string " model" property
" PowerMac3,6" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
unselect
'
# Enable use of nvramrc on boot. Change to "false" if you want to disable again. Or just clear/reset nvram.
sudo nvram "use-nvramrc?"=true
echo done.

Save to a .sh file (name of your choice really) and you are good to go.

Again, haven't tested yet.. But see no reason it should not set the nvramrc up as needed. Nice thing, you can use the script as a stating point to get OS 9 going even if you do not have another machine handy for the initial OS 9 drive creation. I also still like the idea of this nvram change more then just a modded OS 9 Mac OS ROM as it allows OS X Disk Utility and Startup preferences panel to see and select/set OS 9 boot correctly. Would do both (nvramrc/openfirwmare change and modded Mac OS ROM file).

Now, quick confirmation of a few things for anyone wanting to know:

Bluetooth and wifi, OS X with open firmware changes sees both and they work fine (as expected.
OS 9 can see the Bluetooth device. Haven't tried the open source drivers out there to see if it work. Given the FW800 bluetooh module appears to be a another simple USB connected device (like modem) and uses the same hardware as some supported USB dongles I can't see why it wouldn't work.
OS 9 AirPort drivers (not even latest versions I have seen) work for a FW800 AirPort Extreme Card. :( So be prepared to not count on 802.11g AirPort card (at 802.11g or 802.11b).
Onboard Firewire ports on the FW800 behave fine (all at 400, limited, speed though).

Otherwise, everything behaves great so far. This remind me of XPostFacto.... Anyone want to make a 9PostFacto?   :D

Thank you all again for chatting and bringing info together to make this happen. Now I have the hard choice of deciding if I should build up both the machines for OS 9 or get rid of 1 (only intended to have 1 working machine out of the parts I obtained).

Still going to see if I can dd or otherwise raw capture a blank OS 9 driver partitioned/formatted drive to see if this can all be done without touching open firmware at all to be able to get an OS 9 install down on a drive without any existing OS 9 capable machine handy.
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blemk

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Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
« Reply #219 on: November 28, 2014, 09:05:58 PM »

Script I posted earlier/above works great (I loose the script in nvram every so often as I have a dying battery in my FW800 as I used the one good battery in the FW400 machine).. But it works, and easy to recover (I just boot into X of some sort and run the script and reboot). A bit safer than typing in open firmware the long commands and certainly quicker.

Change the "PowerMac3,6" to something else for experimenting with other devices you might be trying to get OS 9 booting on..
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