Mac OS 9 booting on: iMac G4 Flat-panel (Detailed Posts)

[MacTron]

After the success on Mac Os 9 boot on the unsupported MDD FW800:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=762.msg4520#msg4520

This thead is open to discuss the Mac Os 9 boot on the unsupported iMac G4.
A good starting point may be from this post on 68kmla:

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/21515-os-9-on-ibook-g4-findings/

[Cloaked Alien]

Posting here to chime in as I've got an iMac G4 Globe (aka: iLamp) that I want to run Mac OS 9. It's the 1GHz 17" model.

I haven't quite wrapped my head around what's needed to be done just yet. Firmware update/flash or Mac OS Rom hack? (Mac OS Rom is loaded from bootable media, is it not?)

[DieHard]

Mactron...

Can you ask iMac600 to post the Modified ROM taken from the OS9General.dmg ?

I think he did great work there, but dome newbies may be a little scared doing file Hex Edits...why re-invent the wheel if he can provide the modified ROM file.

We can repackage and make a "Beta Test OS 9 General" for testing on unsupported models (that are close in hardware spec. to approved models)

[Cloaked Alien]

I'm currently creating install media for OS X 10.4 to properly check my specs on my iMac G4. I don't mind doing some tests, especially if it helps the rest of the community.

[Cloaked Alien]

Here are my, relevant, specs:
Machine Model: PowerMac6.1
CPU Type: PowerPC G4 3.3
CPU Speed: 1GHz
Memory: 768MB
Bus Speed: 133MHz
Boot Rom Version: 4.5.9f1
Graphics: Geforce4 MX

[MacTron]

Mactron...

Can you ask iMac600 to post the Modified ROM taken from the OS9General.dmg ?

I think he did great work there, but dome newbies may be a little scared doing file Hex Edits...why re-invent the wheel if he can provide the modified ROM file.

We can repackage and make a "Beta Test OS 9 General" for testing on unsupported models (that are close in hardware spec. to approved models)

well... I'm gonna try to contact iMac600 ...
but I'm not optimistic about him posting the Modified ROM.
In 68kMLA are extremely banned any kind of software sharing.
Long time ago I've posted there a small app that I wrote by myself, and they were more worried about the license of the libraries I'd used than gimme to me the thanks for sharing my two months work. Thankfully everything was OK...

[Cloaked Alien]

I've only seen this OS9General mentioned alongside the MDD systems.

Would this OS9General work on a _supported_ iLamp system without a modified ROM?

[supernova777]

well... I'm gonna try to contact iMac600 ...
but I'm not optimistic about him posting the Modified ROM.
In 68kMLA are extremely banned any kind of software sharing.
Long time ago I've posted there a small app that I wrote by myself, and they were more worried about the license of the libraries I'd used than gimme to me the thanks for sharing my two months work. Thankfully everything was OK...

68kmla can be a bit funny but they are reasonable people if u explain your intentions! i beleive anyway

[SnakeCoils]

Currently I am doing this experiment on a MacMini 1.25 Ghz following the 68KMLA thread but until now it didn't work, the OS9 partition is still not bootable.

I have formatted the internal HD connecting the machine via firewire to my MDD and here I have discovered that "target mode" works only between onboard FW port while PCI firewire cards are not supported and if used for this purpose they tend to stop the machine from boot.

Using Disk Utility under 10.4.11 on MDD I have partitioned the MacMini HD in three parts paying attention to install the OS9 drivers too.

Then I have copied the files from OS9General.dmg image of my MDD's restore disk  to the first partition of MacMini (all done through firewire connection) and proceed to modify the ROM file in System Folder.

The hex editor I used is HexEdit, I prefer it against HexFiend, in this case the byte lenght of edited file is shown in hexadecimal value instead of decimal. I do not like the way the Hexfiend screenshot are shown on 68KMLA because the ASCII part is too much simplified, it does not show for example the differences beween x00 and x20 that are rendererd both as a blank space, while of course they aren't.

However I have carefully performed the edit suggested, everytime unmounting the target volume before to reboot the MacMini but so far I have not luck in booting OS9 on that machine.

I have done the modification using two different ROMs:

9.5.1 from MDD's OS9General.dmg
10.2.1 from Classic installation included in OSX 10.4 Install Disc Set

Both ROMs comes from original discs I have, I am sure they are 100% Apple genuine, unmodified before.

I am not a programmer but looking at the code I see that the first part is nothing different to what various Unix bootloader do for allow the Mac to load a non-Apple OS, simply adding MacRISC3 and MacRISC4 to the MacRISC Compatibility string. This make sense and is a step in the right direction.

Then the right machine check is extended to "macrisc3" and "macrisc4" duplicating the case handled by the "macrisc" string.

Finally the "abort" command is replaced by the "clear" one and some characters in a subsequent empty space have to been cleared to rebuild the correct byte lenght of the file.

All this seems correct but also too much easy in my opinion :-) I wonder if this is really the only check done from the ROM to allow the OS9 environment to load, I mean in a modified ROM that want to work universally on every Non-OS9 PPC machine.
Maybe the modifications above are enough to cheat an iBook (if the reported steps on 68KMLA guide are complete) but not for the MacMini and maybe other machines.

I agree that the ROM to use is the 10.2.1 because is the more "neutral" since it is provided for Classic environment that runs both on G4 and G5 (but this do not mean that OS9 will ever run natively on PPC970 machines, the hardware resources are too much different).

I have done some reasearch on Google but wihout much success, how I can determine if a PPC machine is a MacRISC, MacRISC2, MacRISC3 or MacRISC4 ? Is there a reference table for that?

[Cloaked Alien]

Have you tried the 9.8.1 from the "custer cd"?

http://www.sunrisepage.com/computers/macclassic/macos9.htm

Also, how can I determine the Mac OS rom version from the file alone?

I've only managed to do some minor tests myself without luck. I created a Mac OS 9.2.2 install usb drive from the 9.2.2 install disk that comes with the Flat Panel iMacs that support 9.2.2.

I figure I can't boot from it but perhaps it's the easiest way to see if it'll show up in the boot menu (alt) at startup.

It shows up on my G4 Cube but not my G4 Globe (it reads the drive but ignores it, OS X from the same drive works just fine)

I've also tried copying the Mac OS ROM from the Custer image, but I have yet to verify any Mac OS ROM versions since I don't know how to read it =S

[SnakeCoils]

I have tried with the famous 9.8.1 Mac ROM from the diagnostic CD you mentioned but no luck again... however it comes at handy for future modifications because it already include in the initial part two extra Mac models that are:

PowerMac4,2 (iMac G4/800 MHz - 7450 CPU)
PowerBook4,3 (iBook  G3/900 MHz - 750fx CPU)

There's a thing that I suspect: the Diagnostic CD for G4 MacMini does not more contain a regular (modified) OS9 partition but another type of boot sequence, very similar to the one for the G5 machines and this lead me to look to what kind of processor is inside the OS9 PowerMacs...
Well, putting together the informations from the 68KMLA thread and the MacTracker database I discovered that...

NONE OF THE G4 POWERMACS WITH A 7447A/B CPU CAN BOOT OS9 NATIVELY!

So, what permit to the iBook 800 user in the other thread to boot os9? Simple: althought Apple disabled for this model (that has an ID equal to PowerBook 6,3) the OS9 support they build this machine with a 7455 inside and this is enough for the modified MacROM to load.

So, in the end, to have a universal MacROM file running on every G4 (and maybe G5) the real challenge is disable in the code the CPU check because THIS is the real issue in booting OS9, the text string in the beginning of MacROM it is only the first barricade, once removed all the G4 Macs with a 7455 CPU should be able to run OS9, but the 7447A/B Mac based needs to wait until someone really smart in PPC assembly can patch the ROM to disable this check.

At this point the only lucky users that benefit from the Mac ROM modding could be the iMacs users... this Mac family never adopted a 7447 CPU so the chances to have success in booting OS9 are higher than later PowerBooks, for example.

[Cloaked Alien]

Sweeeeet. So you're saying that my system stands a decent chance at least? (iMac G4 Globe, 17"/1GHz, 7445 CPU)?

If you don't mind, could you ... the file.. .to me.. Shoud I simply use it in conjunction with the os9general (used with the mdd) or the custer? I can have a go at it fairly quickly =)

[SnakeCoils]

No problem :-) I have just done the modification using the 10.2.1 as base and 9.8.1 as reference for the right syntax during editing, I have a MacMini (7447) so this ROM does not work for me but I hope you will have better luck ;-)

Here is the link for the download

http://www.mediafire.com/download/a6ajgzsk346dzwa/MacOSROM_1021mod.zip

Please report your results here! Have fun! ;-)

[Cloaked Alien]

Thanks, I'll try it. I just need to copy it into the system folder, right? =)

My first attempt will be with the 9.2.2 that supposedly comes with the compatible flat panel macs.

[Cloaked Alien]

!

Well, it shows up in the boot menu now! (My USB drive prepped with OS 9.2.2 install).
Naturally it won't boot though. I doubt OS9 can even be booted from USB? I tried that on my G4 Cube without any luck.

I guess I have to try to make a bootable CD. Good thing I've got media to spare. Just hope it's compatible.

[Cloaked Alien]

Holy sh*tballs Batman! It booted from the CD!.. Or well, the DVD.. Since the burner was REALLY moody. None of my CD-R media worked, the DVD-R media I had worked though. Botched the first run.

Used Toast 7, mounted disc image. Replaced the Mac OS Rom. Ejected image. Burned image to DVD, rebooted with the option key held and there it was!

Now we'll see if it installs...

[Cloaked Alien]

First problem was that it didn't see the drive. I had to use the Drive Setup and create 2 partitions (just to be safe, not sure how well OS 9 and OS X will play together. OS X is nice to have for network transfers after all)

Then it tells me that "This program cannot run on your computer" when I try to launch the installer =S

I guess I either have to install using Target Disk Mode or try to make a new boot cd based upon the OS9General ?

[Cloaked Alien]

Further success. Now I simply reinstalled Mac OS 10.4. Then I installed Classic Mode support through a DVD that contains multilingual versions and then i replaced the Mac OS ROM. It boots just fine into Mac OS 9.2.2 and classic mode, albeit only 256 colors and without the typical OS 9 apps.

Next step is trying to get a more functional install into it.

[Cloaked Alien]

I Installed the OS9General release on top of the plain classic stuff and it worked like a charm. Now I got a standard system up and running!

However I still only get 256 colors and sound doesn't seem to work. I'm guessing it's a fairly easy fix but I've got no experience whatsoever with OS 9 "drivers". Any takers? =)

Thanks SO much for the ROM file, this really got stuff rolling.

[SnakeCoils]

Great! :-) Later this day I will post the mod also for 9.5.1 and 9.8.1 Mac ROMs, I don't think there will be changes about the 256 colors issue but best to give it a try.
Please also check if the I/O port works as they should, I mean USB, Firewire and Ethernet.

At this point I regret to have flashed my FW800 MDD because at present I have in house no other 7450 machines to experiment with... :-(

[Cloaked Alien]

Sweeet =)

I tried installing from the 9.2.2. thats _supposedly_ for iMac G4 (flat panel) but it said it wasn't compatible. Any way around this?

OS 9-compatible "iLamps" have Geforce 4MX cards, just as in my model, so that in itself shouldn't be an issue. I haven't been able to find anything about the audio chipsets just yet though.

I did find some Nvidia Driver update and an Apple Media update but both refuse to install saying they're not compatible with my machine.

I'm guessing extensions and drivers are pretty much the same thing so if I can get the extensions from that install cd  it might work. I'm guessing they might be hidden in one of those "tome" files?

Or perhaps it's just a Mac ROM issue. I'd be happy to try out anything you throw at me =)

And I'll try to check the other things as well. I've got no firewire equipment or cables to test with but USB and Ethernet should be simple enough.

[supernova777]

great work guys 

[Cloaked Alien]

I heard from another user that Mac OS ROM can indeed affect drivers. I have yet to experience this myself. Albeit he claimed to have used a newer rom and from what I've gathered that 10.2.1 is the latest?

[Cloaked Alien]

Oh, I found another 9.2.2. install cd that's supposedly for iMac, it doesn't yell at me when trying to install so I'll have a go with it.

It comes with the Mac OS ROM 9.1.1

[MacTron]

NONE OF THE G4 POWERMACS WITH A 7447A/B CPU CAN BOOT OS9 NATIVELY!

Yes, but this is more a Firmware restriction than a Mac Os 9/ Mac Os ROM problem. The 7447 and 7448 upgrades usually patch the Firmware not Mac Os 9/ Mac Os ROM to properly work.

I heard from another user that Mac OS ROM can indeed affect drivers. I have yet to experience this myself. Albeit he claimed to have used a newer rom and from what I've gathered that 10.2.1 is the latest?

This is definitely a central point. That's the Mac Os ROM 10.2.1 is the way to go because it can startup most if no ALL of the Macs that can run Mac Os 9 and this show us that this rom has the wide range of drivers for a computer startup Mac Os 9...

In fact Mac OS 9.2.2 was released in December 5, 2001. And what did Apple to enable Mac Os 9 in later computers models? : upgrade the Mac Os ROM, until they decided to stop of doing it...

You can startup without Audio or Video drivers (Video cards usually have a very slow "compatible" mode without drivers), but what do you think would happen when the SO try to initialize some motherboard chips with different behavior than expected... by example, a unknown Uninorth (may be the case of Mac Mini) or ATA 133 after a weird bridge (the case of a G4 Server) or a completely unknown Motherboard (the case Of G5)

What happens is a completely system crash.

... and by the way: congratulations for your success.

Don't forget to try the very last nVidia drivers:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1100.0

[SnakeCoils]

Well, as promised here are the MacOS ROMs I have edited so far accordingly to 68KMLA instructions, I hope we now have enough material to experiment with :-)

MDD FW400 (from OS9general.dmg)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/12u48n55hhk82dh/MacOSROM_951mod.zip

Apple Diagnostic CD (March 2003)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/jada8sziwenyadf/MacOSROM_981mod.zip

OSX 10.4.11 Classic Install package

http://www.mediafire.com/download/a6ajgzsk346dzwa/MacOSROM_1021mod.zip

About the audio problem I think it may be essentially a driver issue, for example if I throw to my MDD a generic 9.2.2 installation I have no audio because the chip in this machine is different from the previous so trying different drivers (in this case it is more appropriate talking of Extensions) from different packages can activate the audio again on a particular PowerMac. It is only a matter of trial and error until some result comes up.
About the iMac (non OS9 factory enabled) refusing to install a 9.2.2 it is normal: if I try to install a 9.2.2 to my MDD via the normal CD it simply does not go ahead because it is not a recognized machine, in fact the only way to have OS9 on a MDD is to copy the whole structure of OS9general.dmg in a blank partition, no Installer required.
The OS9 for MDD is a custom install but maybe the most recent environment of this kind we have, definitively a good point to start and customize further to be full working for a particular PowerMac.

[SnakeCoils]

Yes, but this is more a Firmware restriction than a Mac Os 9/ Mac Os ROM problem. The 7447 and 7448 upgrades usually patch the Firmware not Mac Os 9/ Mac Os ROM to properly work.

Mmmmm... maybe this mean that IF we can apply a firmware patch from the various CPU upgrades manufacturer on a 7447 PowerMac MAYBE the OS9 would be bootable (with the help of a modded MacOS ROM of course) on unsupported machines? 

[MacTron]

Well, as promised here are the MacOS ROMs I have edited so far accordingly to 68KMLA instructions, I hope we now have enough material to experiment with :-)

Your files were destroyed by a zip compressor.

Can You please compress it with Stuffit and upload it again?
Small files like those, can be attached to post, so no mediafire needed.
Thank You.

[SnakeCoils]

Your files were destroyed by a zip compressor.

The ROM files were compressed under OSX 10.5.8 (PPC) with the default archiver, they expands well under X. I've just seen that Stuffit under OS9 does not decompress them correctly, the end size is wrong. I'll see what I can do :-)

[Cloaked Alien]

Ugh. I managed to break my OS 9 install completely. Can't get it to work at all now. Despite redoing my previous steps (disk setup in OS 9 in case the OS 9 drivers broke) =S

Not sure what's up with that.

Edit: Apparently it lost it's blessing. Which is strange considering I reinstalled from scratch. Whatever, it was solved by simply browsing the system folder using one of my 9.2.2. startup discs O o

[SnakeCoils]

Here are the ROMs above compressed with Stuffit 5.5 in OS 9.2.2 on my MDD. Enjoy! :-)

[Cloaked Alien]

Finally got everything set up properly again. Tested 9.8.1 ROM, boot just fine but still no audio (mic seems to work, mind you)

Installing updated NVidia drivers didn't do anything either, how can I check if they're loaded (system includes ATI drivers as well).

Gonna try the 9.5.1 ROM =)
Edit: 9.5.1 ROM boots just fine as well, no driver difference.
Edit 2: I've thrown out the ATI extensions and I've checked my extension versions with System Profiler. I've got Apple Audio Extension 2.1.1 and it's enabled.
Edit 3: Welp! Apparently audio works just fine if I plug in earphones. The stock speakers won't work however. Hmmm. Is there any difference in hardware between the 1GHz models and oldes ones?
Edit 4: Oh, and I almost forgot. Ethernet and USB is working just fine under OS9.

Would you mind trying to modify the 9.1.1 ROM? I can provide it for you if you need it. It's the one that comes with the CD I've used.

MacTron: Is a newer Mac OS ROM _always_ preferred? I mean, in my case is there even the possibility that the 9.1.1 ROM actually supports my hardware better?

Can't really see why I wouldn't get sound and graphics working properly =S

[Cloaked Alien]

It occurred to me to test the USB-based speakers that comes with the G4 Cube, and those just works!

Mind you, the only output device I can ever choose is "Built-in", but when plugging in headphones or the usb speakers the icon on the "speakers" tab correctly changes.

For me, personally, this is a viable solution. For the community however I would like to see it solved. My main issue at hand though is the graphics =S

[SnakeCoils]

Would you mind trying to modify the 9.1.1 ROM? I can provide it for you if you need it. It's the one that comes with the CD I've used.

No problem, send me via PM the unmodified Mac ROM (compressed with DropStuff) and I'll apply the edit. Also I have found two extra ROMs to play with, the 8.4 from OS 9.2.1 update and the 8.7 from the 9.2.2 update, I'll post them later this afternoon.

[SnakeCoils]

As promised here we have two new additions to the modded Mac ROMs collection, in detail:

Mac OS ROM 8.4 from OS 9.2.1 Updater
Mac OS ROM 8.7 from OS 9.2.2 Updater

They are attached to this post. Enjoy! :-)

[Cloaked Alien]

8.7 ROM didn't even allow it to boot =P

I kinda figured as much though ^^

Anyways, what do you think about the theory that the NVidia drivers might have to be hacked? I'm nowhere near as skilled with the internals of OS9 to know how to check if a driver is even loaded. I can see that the extension is enabled, but that's hardly the same thing as it detecting the hardware/system =)

[SnakeCoils]

I don't know anything about hacking the graphics drivers, the only case I am aware of is the notorious set of modified ATI extensions that enable the use of Radeon 9250 cards under OS9, otherwise the GPU acceleration would not been enabled since the card ID is not recognized by OEM and retail drivers.

[Cloaked Alien]

Okay, so now I've tested 9.1.1 and 9.7.1 ROMs as well, thank you!
Boots just fine but doesn't seem to make any difference to the system, at all.

To my knowledge there isn't any ROM newer than 10.2.1 either is there?

Maybe we just got to be patient and see if anyone else chimes in. It would seem like they were stuck at the same point as me/us in the 68kmla-forums so I posted there before hope that someone would have taken it further.

[MacTron]

... only case I am aware of is the notorious set of modified ATI extensions that enable the use of Radeon 9250 cards under OS9, otherwise the GPU acceleration would not been enabled since the card ID is not recognized by OEM and retail drivers.

¿?

Can you please open a thread and explain this?...
I'm very interested in this one
Thank You in advance.

[supernova777]

why are you guys worried about the rom version
its the openfirmware that was the fix

[supernova777]

seriously did u guys all just give up on this..

im reading the responses here again.. and i cant believe what im reading
-the success of the g5 booting os9 had nothing ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with a "mac so rom" file..
so all this talk of rom file.. and installation medias.. + custer cds.. is all wasted time + effort

what u guys SHOULD have been talking about is

A) which target mac you are trying to make boot os 9 (that doesnt have support for it already)
B) which similar mac model you are going to copy the firmware from (done inside openfirmware with an NVEDIT script)
C) how exactly to use openfirmware to copy the FIRMWARE...
D) how exactly to use openfirmware to flash the working os9 FIRMWARE

we have referred to the machines firmware as the machines rom.. u guys have gotten all confused
this does not mean the operating system "mac os rom"

u need to change the firmware of the machine to allow it to recognize the //:tbxi toolbox image CHRP script as valid
open firmware is not the same thing as the machines FIRMWARE

[supernova777]

there is 5 models of osx boot only imac g4s to "operate on" to convert to mac os 9 bootable

all imac g4s:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_700_fp.html 9 capable
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_800_fp.html 9 capable
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_800_17_fp.html 9 capable
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_800_fp_macosx.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.0_17_fp.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.0_15_fp.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.25_17_fp.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.25_20_fp.html *

if anyones going to respond to this thread
first thing u should tell us is which model you are going to make an attempt with

in order to be successfull with this we need first someone to copy the 700 / 800 or 800 17" imac's firmware file
or a upgrade firmware for these 3 models needs to be found online (in the same way that one was found for the g4 mdd)

this is where the magic happens:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHTorQfpxIQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHTorQfpxIQ</a>

here we have some firmwares posted by apple:
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1395
lets take a look

and there is no luck here
iMac (USB 2.0)    no update needed
iMac (17-inch 1GHz)    no update needed
iMac (17-inch Flat Panel)    no update needed
iMac (Flat Panel)    no update needed

[supernova777]

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/9702/apple-imac-superdrive-updater-x

this might be it 
yes.. houston.. we have lift off!!

15" Flat Panel iMac, SuperDrive
there is a chance its for the later mac os x 15" model
but i doubt it..
its most likely a superdrive update for the older models.. to match the cd/dvd support to the newer models
so if thats the case..
then this is the mac os 9 bootable firmware for the imac g4!

download the firmware
then follow the instructions for forcing the firmware flash (because the version is lower then what u have)
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=762.msg3962#msg3962

same instructions as for the g4 mdd
but this time with the attached firmware i have attached

- Open the bundle by right-clicking (or control-clicking) on the PMG4FirmwareUpdate.app file inside /Applications/Utilities and choosing "Show Package Contents."
- Navigate to Contents/Resources and drag the "Firmware" file to the root of your startup disk.
- Make note of the partition number of your startup disk-- this is important for the next steps. On a freshly-formatted drive with OS 9 drivers, the first visible partition is 9, which in my case meant my second visible partition with OS X installed was partition number 10.
- Reboot the Mac and hold down Command-Option-O-F to boot to Open Firmware.
- Enter the following two commands, substituting your partition number after the "hd:"
    load hd:10,Firmware
    go
- With luck, the white Open Firmware prompt will disappear and you'll soon see an OS 9-style progress bar at the bottom of the screen as the Boot ROM is being flashed.
- After the Mac automatically restarts, install OS 9 using the special version for the MDD FW400 (OS9General.dmg). The OS 9 System Folder should be visible and selectable using the Startup Disk preference pane.
- Enjoy.

[supernova777]

ok wait. that firmware might only be for the actual cd/dvd drive..... which means that the firmware would have to be extracted from one of the 3 that work..
or else found somewhere else online

my mistake i thought it was a firmware update for the actual computer itself

[supernova777]

i read of a guy named "Pareis" who is a super pro at open firmware
http://pareis.wordpress.com/
i read of this guy here:
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/5527-macos-86-on-sawtooth-g4/page-2
in a msg from "ccmac"

[MacTron]

-the success of the g5 booting os9 had nothing ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with a "mac so rom" file..
so all this talk of rom file.. and installation medias.. + custer cds.. is all wasted time + effort

...Give me a Mac Os 9 ROM with support for the G5 motherboard components and the Firmware/Open Firmware tricks will be a little walk in the park on a sunny day .... LOL

[supernova777]

LOL typo.. g4;)
my bad

[IIO]

...Give me a Mac Os 9 ROM with support for the G5 motherboard components and the Firmware/Open Firmware tricks will be a little walk in the park on a sunny day .... LOL

you only need to take the 64 bit version of OS9 and install the quad processor enabler extension. not.

[supernova777]

lets not get offtopic

we need a few good minds on this and we can crack it
where focus needs to be put :
how to save the firmware of an existing os9 bootable version imac g4 to a file
there was talk on this thread about getting 8.6 on a sawtooth about using the utility from a 3rd party cpu
that had the ability to save the original firmware because the 3rd party cpu needed to patch or write a modified firmware to properly support the 3rd party cpu

For example, in a discussion on the apple support forums I found a Sawtooth owner who had a corrupt boot rom who wanted to reflash it with a fresh copy of the firmware. He stated that Sonnet sent him a utility he called the G4 ROM Utility that had the ability to both save a copy of the boot rom and reflash it -- (https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/5527-macos-86-on-sawtooth-g4/page-2)

dont get confused this thread above was about getting a working 8.6 mac os install on a sawtooth.. these guys were trying to hack it because they didnt have the cd,.. and the one guy almeath who did have the cd, he had the wrong type of mac.. he thought it was a sawtooth but it was a 4pci slot gigabit ethernet model.. ccmac was talking about reverting the firmware but it turned out this was not neccessary all tht was neccessary to boot 8.6 on the sawtooth was having the original cd which contained the 2.5.1 rom - but the comments he said about saving out a copy of the firmware are whats relevant to this thread and also his comments about this guy, pareis + his openfirmware abilities.. he wrote a script to flash firmware of a mac directly from mac os x called "fwupdater" http://pareis.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/running-firmware-updaters-from-mac-os-x/ AHA! here is his blog: http://4thcode.blogspot.ca/ see ?? FORTH CODE.. hes made it "4th" but macforth is the name of the languae of openfirmware...
hence the nam,e of this guys blog. 4th code.. forth code.

maybe this is the thread?

There is a utility called PM G4 ROM UTILITY (the guys from SONNET sent it to me) what can read out & write a G4 firmware. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/536041?start=0&tstart=0

WE NEED THIS THING TO USE TO SAVE FIRMWARE FROM OS9 BOOTABLE MACS AND WE ARE HOME FREE!

but thats just one way, there should be a way to do this RAW in the openfirmware itself if you are skilled with programming + writing openfirmware's own language .
which is the forth language i think another key diffference between the structure of this language and most other languages
as i pointed out on the other downgrade mdd g4 thread was the structure of writing commands in this language is backwards from normal languages

we are used to [command] [values] [switches]
and this language's structure, as illusrtated in the above quote...
is set up like this: [values] [command]
totally backward http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=762.msg4676#msg4676

in order to save a mac os 9 bootable firmware we need someone who has one of these os9 bootable imac g4s..
and who has the intelligence to figure out how to save the firmware to a file
in openfirmware or using a 3rd party utility to do the work instead

so there is two ways to proceed
1) find the pm g4 rom utility from sonnet or another similiar utility from a 3rd party cpu and use it on a os9 bootable imac g4 + save the firmware to a file to copy to the other models
2) figure out how to save the firmware using scripting RAW from openfirmware "by hand"

or 3) we find pareis and ask him for his help to accomplish this task
or 4) we find another skilled forth programmer to assist in saving the firmware to a file

[supernova777]

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-desktop-computers/mississauga-peel-region/apple-imac-g4-700-lampshade/1021684051?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

well well well look what i found;)

[supernova777]

who has a sonnet upgrade g4 cpu? whoever has this should have the g4 rom utility that we need it comes with the encore ST cpu upgrades
ANYONE of our users who have a 3rd party g4 cpu should have a similar utility provided on the cd that comes with these 3rd party utilities

COME ON PEOPLE  WAKE UP

[Cloaked Alien]

Wait? What? What's new? I've got a non-os9 compatible imac. I can hack OS9 into it but without proper sound and graphics support.

I know people with OS9-compatible iLamps. If software can be provided I'm sure I can get them to do firmware dumps.

[Knezzen]

I know people with OS9-compatible iLamps. If software can be provided I'm sure I can get them to do firmware dumps.

Like me?

I'll have a look at it if someone can provide the software needed.

[Cloaked Alien]

Like me?

I'll have a look at it if someone can provide the software needed.

Haha, Yes, and another guy we "know". He's probably not as technical though but I'm pretty sure he's got an OS9-compatible flat panel.

[supernova777]

i will see if i can aquire the one for sale in my area.. it is mac os 9 bootable. only a 700mhz model but whatever..

i think i could extract the firmware if i can get my hands on one

you two guys know each other?

[supernova777]

Wait? What? What's new? I've got a non-os9 compatible imac. I can hack OS9 into it but without proper sound and graphics support.

this is because u dont have the proper firmware on it yet!!!!!! i really believe that we can solve this though.

[supernova777]

all imac g4s:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_700_fp.html 9 capable
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_800_fp.html 9 capable
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_800_17_fp.html 9 capable
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_800_fp_macosx.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.0_17_fp.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.0_15_fp.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.25_17_fp.html *
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.25_20_fp.html *

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2643

original motherboard style ports:


revised motherboard style ports:


based on this info here, it seems that the motherboards are in fact totally different ;( so it may be risky to do a firmware downgrade to the 700mhz type firmware...usb ports in different places.. risky.. like losing usb functionality totally could screw the machien totally.

the article in summary:
revision 1: 15 inch imac g4 (700mhz, 800mhz)
revision 2: 17 inch imac g4 (800mhz)
revision 3: 17 inch imac g4 WITH NEW MOBO (1ghz)
revision 4: 15,17 + 20 inch screens imac g4 WITH NEW MOBO (1.0ghz + 1.25ghz)

[Cloaked Alien]

this is because u dont have the proper firmware on it yet!!!!!! i really believe that we can solve this though.

Well, yeah. I remember reading a theory about downgrading the firmware, but nothing conclusive. At least not on the iLamp. Only working hacks I've seen are the Mac OS Rom hacks.

I wouldn't count my eggs until I've seen the firmware hack actually working. I'm pretty sure there are risks involved with that too, they're physically different machines after all.

[supernova777]

reading the original ibook thread i saw that there was possible a mac boot of os9 but with limited graphics + problems
did any of u doing the mac os rom hack use an original mac os rom from an imac g4 restore cd??

frm what i read u guys all used 10.2.1 rom + generic roms from the 9.21 + 9.22 updates..
maybe u could have sucess if u modified a real mac os rom for the actual x only imac g4
(ie a copy of mac rom version whatever came on the imac g4 restore cds)

http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-922-1021-power-macintosh-g4-mirrored-drive-doors-mdd


the restore cds are all available here:
https://www.mediafire.com/?315vwcwj9tngx
except these cds are for a 15inch imac g4..
which version?? there was 15 inch X only models.. as well as os9 booting models..
not sure which these discs is for.. based on "Cd version 1.0" i would say its for the first 700mhz + 800mhz versions
also because my qs 933mhz cd restores X v10.1.3 + 9.22 and this one says X v10.1.4 so its clearly not
long after the 933mhz model that the model of imac g4 that the cds was for was released..
the qs933 being from 2002... based on my info (http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php?topic=389.0)
between january + august 2002 and the fact that jaguar was released in august 2002
means these cds are for early 2002 imac g4s..

i have renamed these files (to indicate 2002 models) + backed them up on my own account here:
https://www.mediafire.com/#73d27z04q2int

the x only imac g4s were only released in 2003

2002
http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-2002.html
 iMac G4/700 (Flat Panel) 700 MHz PowerPC 7441 (G4)
 iMac G4/800 (Flat Panel) 800 MHz PowerPC 7445 (G4)
iMac G4/800 17-Inch (Flat Panel) 800 MHz PowerPC 7445 (G4)

2003
http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-2003.html
 iMac G4/800 - X Only (Flat Panel) 800 MHz PowerPC 7445 (G4)
iMac G4/1.0 17-Inch (Flat Panel) 1.0 GHz PowerPC 7445 (G4)
iMac G4/1.0 15-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0) 1.0 GHz PowerPC 7445 (G4)
 iMac G4/1.25 17-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0) 1.25 GHz PowerPC 7445 (G4)
iMac G4/1.25 20-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0) 1.25 GHz PowerPC 7445 (G4)

here we go - its so clear.. all imac g4s from 2002 boot os9 ..
all imac g4s from 2003.. dont - and the hardware is PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT... :/

so i would think to do a os9 "mac os rom" hack for these that supports the hardware properly..
 u need to hack the right "mac os rom"
that is for that specific motherboard from the restore discs that came with the 2003 models
ok u dont *NEED* to do anything;) but it may be a good thing to try.. different from whats been tried already

the above cds will contain a rom verson .. i will open it up and see which mac os rom it contains for the 2002 imac g4s

[supernova777]

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/imac-g4-flat-panel-faq/differences-between-spring-2003-imac-g4-flat-panel-models.html
so apparenly this 800mhz "X only" 2003 model has the same motherboard as the 2002 models..
so THIS MODEL FOR SURE CAN BE HACKED

but unfortunately it only has 100mhz bus...
and all the other x only 2003 models have DDR ram + 133mhz bus

[supernova777]

When shipped, these models were configured with MacOS X 10.2.3 pre-installed and neither can boot into earlier versions of the MacOS. Each can run MacOS 9 applications within the "Classic Environment" provided by MacOS X 10.4.11 and earlier, however.

cloaked alien: i think it migth be worthwhile to find the imac g4 restore cds that have 10.2.3 on them..  and then try the mac os rom trick again.

[Cloaked Alien]

cloaked alien: i think it migth be worthwhile to find the imac g4 restore cds that have 10.2.3 on them..  and then try the mac os rom trick again.

I'm not 100% sure but I'm fairly sure we already tried that, look at my earlier posts.

Edit: It's the Mac OS ROM from OS 9 that's the file you mod. It's version should not be confused with the OS version. Where should we find that on the OS X cd? ^^

I THINK I hunted down the restore CD from the supported G4 iLamp and had the OS 9 rom modified.

[supernova777]

Edit: It's the Mac OS ROM from OS 9 that's the file you mod. It's version should not be confused with the OS version. Where should we find that on the OS X cd? ^^

I THINK I hunted down the restore CD from the supported G4 iLamp and had the OS 9 rom modified.

originally i was talking about modifying the machines firmware..(via openfirmware) becuase this is the method that was used to have the success with the g4 mdd fw800 that we all witnessed on this board..... but now im talking about your approach.. the mac os rom mod approach.. my thoughts being that there could be "machine specific" versions of the 'mac os rom' that more properly support hardware differences.... some have explained that u cant use an older rom with a newer computer, because support for that hardware couldnt possibly be included.. well perhaps this is true, but also that they made different specific versions of the same rom version
 ie: maybe there was mac os rom 10.2.1 for ibook, mac os rom 10.2.1 for imac, mac os rom 10.2.1 for mdd all appearing as "10.2.1" "mac os rom" file but in fact having slight differences in the code inside??? we dont know for sure.. so what im suggesting is. TRY THE HACK WITH THE ROM ON THE RESTORE DISCS FOR THAT SPECIFIC MAC

the 'mac os rom' file would still have to be on the 2003 imac g4 restore discs to support the classic environment.... but to get it out of the disc u would *HAVE* to do a system restore i think.. or you could find the ".img" restore hard drive image on the disk and click to mount it in osx and find the mac os rom file inside somewhere...this is in contrast to the 2002 restore imac g4 discs that would have a system folder with the rom sitting 'out in the open' on the bootable system folder of the actual restore disc.. (as well as inside the hd restore.img file)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Toolbox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_ROM

VS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware

VS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware

3 different things

[supernova777]

i have just now opened the imac g4 2002 restore cds and confirmed that its mac os rom version is : 9.1.1
dated april 8th 2002

lol i see your post above: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1173.msg4626#msg4626

so u tried this version? but which imac g4 do u have??
>>> 1GHz 17" model.
because if its a 2003.. that might explain the problems.. u used the 2002 rom on 2003 machine.. with different hardware..
as i showed above there was essentially 2 different motherboard types for these... 2003 x only macs have different hareware cloaked allen is obv aware of this as he pointed out above that they are different hardware..
but yes. back to my suggestion

i suggest finding the mac os rom for the imac 2003s restore disc.
i dont know the version of this file


this is what it looks like if this page is correct

we need to find this restore that has X 10.2.3 + os 9 (classic support)
specifically we only need this orange "restore" cd in the middle
actually the install should have the same rom on it aswell
but i mean to say one copy is enuff we dont need all cds
"we" meaning one of us, anyone of us..

but this page also lists 10.2.7 + 10.3 imac restore discs


http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2191?viewlocale=en_EN


SO according to this chart the orange disc 10.2.3 restore discs is for the 1ghz 17" that u have cloaked alien
whether or not this cd contains version of mac os rom vital to best performance of your hardware
is a controversial subject here but its worth a try

[supernova777]

ive found another g4 restore disc im downloading now..  from max
hopefully its the 2003 10.2.3 version

annddddd its not.. its the same 2002 imac g4 restore cds..
containing mac os rom 9.1.1 version...

[supernova777]

ok!!!!
ive located the "mac os x install cd" for the imac g4 800mhz .. presumably the "x only" model..
downloading now and i will open the sucker up and try to find the mac os rom hidden deep within
if it even includes the os9 system folder.. 
did they stop including os9 in 2003?

[Knezzen]

ok!!!!
ive located the "mac os x install cd" for the imac g4 800mhz .. presumably the "x only" model..
downloading now and i will open the sucker up and try to find the mac os rom hidden deep within
if it even includes the os9 system folder.. 
did they stop including os9 in 2003?

There are two 800mhz models that support OS9, so you must be more specific .
I bet you mean M9105, right?

[supernova777]

im not sure im guessing its for the X only model
will find out in a sec

wow someones a real genius
this was an upload to max ftp
someone just zipped the folders of the imac g4 os x install cd instead of making a cd image LOL
wow what a fail
anyway theres no rom file anywhere on the disc at all that i can see.

the chart above clearly shows 9.22 on the restore disc tho..

[supernova777]

Who has a 3rd party CPU???

Who has a 3rd party utility for saving original firmware?

who has sonnet encore ST?

who has the G4 ROM Utility made by Sonnet?

wake up wake up

[MacTron]

I have the NewerTech firmware patch. It allows a G4 7448/7447 CPU upgrade run Mac Os 9.2 or Mac os X on a Sawtooth...

[supernova777]

what im talking about is a utility that allows u to save the original firmware for doing just such a patch....
it reads the firmware + saves it to a file... enabling the user to be able to restore their original firmware in the event that
the cpu is uninstalled.

this is the utility to be used to take the mac os 9 bootable firmware from os9 bootable version of the imac g4 product line
to be able to attempt to take this firmware + write it to the 800mhz X only imac g4 (which has the same motherboard as the other 9 booting lowend models of imac g4)

and.. for someone brave enough.. to try this on the models that followed that had a significantly different motherboard (at a risk) to gain os9 bootability.

newertech + powerlogic + sonnet are all said to have these types of "rom saving" utilities to facilitate patching + unpatching for 3rd party cpu

the software packages that came with these 3rd party cpus is where someone needs to look to find this or possibly a download from a web backup of their sites.

[MacTron]

I'm not following this thread. But, you are trying to boot a iMac G4 800 in Mac os 9?
What type of screen it have: 15 inch or 17?
The Apple iMac G4/800 - X Only (15 inch Flat Panel) is te easiest to boot into Mac Os 9 again ... LOL

[supernova777]

I'm not following this thread. But, you are trying to boot a iMac G4 800 in Mac os 9?

i give up.... 

you are the one who started the thread!!!!!!!

[MacTron]

I'm not following this thread. But, you are trying to boot a iMac G4 800 in Mac os 9?

i give up.... 

you are the one who started the thread!!!!!!!

Yes. I started this thread, just to try to keep a bit of organization...

[MacTron]

what im talking about is a utility that allows u to save the original firmware for doing just such a patch....
it reads the firmware + saves it to a file... enabling the user to be able to restore their original firmware in the event that
the cpu is uninstalled.

this is the utility to be used to take the mac os 9 bootable firmware from os9 bootable version of the imac g4 product line
to be able to attempt to take this firmware + write it to the 800mhz X only imac g4 (which has the same motherboard as the other 9 booting lowend models of imac g4)

and.. for someone brave enough.. to try this on the models that followed that had a significantly different motherboard (at a risk) to gain os9 bootability.

newertech + powerlogic + sonnet are all said to have these types of "rom saving" utilities to facilitate patching + unpatching for 3rd party cpu

the software packages that came with these 3rd party cpus is where someone needs to look to find this or possibly a download from a web backup of their sites.

I don't know if I have such tool...
But what NewerTech does, and probably other G4 CPU upgrade vendors isn't read and white or patch the Machine firmware, but they do change the Machine "setup" in the Open Firmware, all the changes are in volatile memory, and can be lost if you do a PRAM reset. Never they do a Firmware change. AFAIK

The firmware change is a "brute force method" and may work or render the machine unusable forever...

The best way is learn how to enable or disable some things in OF...

BTW, the Newertech scripts are done by Alessandro Levi Montalcini.

The Apple iMac G4/800 - X Only (15 inch Flat Panel) is te easiest to boot into Mac Os 9 again ... LOL

... because is a Mac Os ROM *only* question...