Noob building DAW

[darthnVader]

So what is MTC and ADAT?

[darthnVader]

Who knows anything about licensing of Logic Pro 8?

If I buy a used copy that the license has already been used am I going to have issues?

I'd rather use Logic Pro 7 but the XS Key is expensive, hard to find, and prone to failure.

I did find some info about syncing MIDI from the VS-1680 to Logic Pro, but it's pretty sparse.

Hello everyone! This is my first post!

After many hours going through various forums, I finally got my VS-1680 to work with Logic Pro X as a MIDI controller! I can use faders to control the ones onscreen but here is the issue I am having:

While the faders do move in Logic as I move them physically on the VS-1680, they are not lined up right (ex. 0 db on the board is about 2.0 db in Logic). They also do not line up with the right tracks in Logic (ex. faders 1-7 on the VS-1680 all control the master on Logic, master on VS-1680 controls nothing). I can control ONLY the master track in Logic using sliders 1-7 on the VS-1680. The rest of the sliders do nothing and don't correspond to any of my tracks in Logic, even if I select them in the program.

Does anyone else know of a way to fix this? Also the faders seem to be the ONLY thing that sends a signal to Logic. The dials do nothing. I have marked with paper where the faders correspond in Logic for now but thought it was worth a shot to try and figure out.

Thanks!

[ssp3]

So what is MTC..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_timecode

..and ADAT?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADAT

[ssp3]

Would the M2 13" MBP be ok?

1. 13" display might turn out to be too small for Logic.
2. When it comes to audio, Apple Silicon is uncharted waters.

Hoping to come in around a $1000 for the interfaces and preamps..

Logic is $199 on the App Store..

..I'm hoping to come in around $2800 to make the old man happy

Does it all has to be new and shiny?
If you ask me, that's money spent on the wrong end.
What's most important tool for the musician? Right, his instrument.
What's next important tool, if he wants to record himself as realistically as possible and if he's not just MIDI keyboard player? Microphone(s)!
Then come microphone preamp(s).
Then A to D converters (interface).
And only then computer and software.

Given the 2.8k budget, this is what I would do.
1. I would buy used, early version of Metric Halo ULN-8 (with Firewire). It was one of the best in its day and had all bells and whistles. And it was expensive. Used around 1.5k or so.
https://mhsecure.com/metric_halo/products/press-releases/267-metric-halo-introduces-uln-8-flagship-converterprocessorpreampinterface.html
High caliber pro's still use it to this day.
2. I would still recommend used MacMini, if the rig doesn't have to be moved around. Not later than 2012 model, because of upgradeability, or better yet, the 2011 model with onboard graphics card. Upgrade it with 2 SSD drives and 16GB of RAM. $100+/- plus drives and RAM.
3. Buy a decent monitor. Or two.
4. If it has to be moved around, buy old-ish MacBook Pro equipped with Firewire.
5. If you want it all, get the same age Mac Pro.
6. Start with simple software. Garage Band, Cubasis ... something like that. Upgrade to full blown stuff only when you/he have mastered the simpler things.
7. Still have some $$ in the pocket. 

[daddyjeff]

Maybe you guys should just get a room.

The QUESTION was:

The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?
Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?

The ANSWER was:
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.
As in: No, you can't get sync and/or control signals such as MTC into and/or out of the S/PDIF connections on the VS-1680 and/or transfer files and/or import audio to Logic and/or other DAW on a Mac.

** Note to rvense: You're correct in that the VS will happily spit MTC over MIDI for whatever to sync to. However, the question and answer was regarding the S/PDIF port.

I'm still quite confused, the SPDIF can't be recorded?

Mix a song on the VS "down mixed" to 2 ch stereo audio and capture the digital stream on a computer via SPDIF then import that into Logic or GB?

It consists of a hardware-level protocol for the transmission of PCM-modulated digital audio signals between stereophonic devices and components.

S/PDIF, initially used in CD players (a device jointly developed by Sony and Philips engineers), has spread to most modern audio devices; such as DVD players (in their audio outputs), Minidisc, DTT decoders, the most modern computer sound cards and, in general, any device that has an "optical output".

It is also widely used in car audio systems, where it replaces the usual copper wiring with a single fiber optic cable, immune to electrical noise.

The S/PDIF specifications allow various types of cables and connectors, depending on the device in which it is used. These can be based on coaxial cable, using RCA connectors in this case, or on fiber optics, where the connectors will be of the TOSLINK type (also known as optical EIAJ). The use of the optical version is more widespread due to its commented immunity to electrical noise. There are adapters for the interconnection of both systems, which usually require external power.

S/PDIF was developed from a standard used in professional audio systems, known as AES/EBU, widely used in DAT systems and in audio transmission in professional recording studios.

At the S/PDIF protocol level it is identical, but the connectors and cables change. XLR type connectors were replaced by RCA and TOSLINK, depending on the transmission technology, cheaper and easier to use.

As for the cable, the shielded twisted pair cable of 110 Ω (ohms) of balanced line impedance is replaced by the 75 Ω coaxial cable, much more widespread and cheaper, or by optical fiber.

[DieHard]

Who knows anything about licensing of Logic Pro 8?

If I buy a used copy that the license has already been used am I going to have issues?

I'd rather use Logic Pro 7 but the XS Key is expensive, hard to find, and prone to failure.

I did find some info about syncing MIDI from the VS-1680 to Logic Pro, but it's pretty sparse.

You can actually go all the way up to Logic pro 9, but the earliest version, (Leopard and Logic 9.0.2) on Power PC, no UBS dongle needed

[darthnVader]

Would the M2 13" MBP be ok?

1. 13" display might turn out to be too small for Logic.
2. When it comes to audio, Apple Silicon is uncharted waters.

Hoping to come in around a $1000 for the interfaces and preamps..

Logic is $199 on the App Store..

..I'm hoping to come in around $2800 to make the old man happy

Does it all has to be new and shiny?
If you ask me, that's money spent on the wrong end.
What's most important tool for the musician? Right, his instrument.
What's next important tool, if he wants to record himself as realistically as possible and if he's not just MIDI keyboard player? Microphone(s)!
Then come microphone preamp(s).
Then A to D converters (interface).
And only then computer and software.

Given the 2.8k budget, this is what I would do.
1. I would buy used, early version of Metric Halo ULN-8 (with Firewire). It was one of the best in its day and had all bells and whistles. And it was expensive. Used around 1.5k or so.
https://mhsecure.com/metric_halo/products/press-releases/267-metric-halo-introduces-uln-8-flagship-converterprocessorpreampinterface.html
High caliber pro's still use it to this day.
2. I would still recommend used MacMini, if the rig doesn't have to be moved around. Not later than 2012 model, because of upgradeability, or better yet, the 2011 model with onboard graphics card. Upgrade it with 2 SSD drives and 16GB of RAM. $100+/- plus drives and RAM.
3. Buy a decent monitor. Or two.
4. If it has to be moved around, buy old-ish MacBook Pro equipped with Firewire.
5. If you want it all, get the same age Mac Pro.
6. Start with simple software. Garage Band, Cubasis ... something like that. Upgrade to full blown stuff only when you/he have mastered the simpler things.
7. Still have some $$ in the pocket. 

Thanks for the replies everyone, the ULN-8 seems to be a little hard to find under about $2k.

Something like the AVID MBox Pro would seem to fit better, but there doesn't seem to be support passed 10.14.x on the macOS.

I just hate the blow the entire budget on the interface side, I guess I figure may as well let the old man get a new Mac out of the deal.

Is there anything interface wise that has at least 8 input channels, MIDI, and 2 to 4 Mic inputs that anyone can recommend in the $500-$1k range.

I hear what you are saying about ASoC, plugins are not ready yet, right?

[DieHard]

OK, so just to clarify if someone else gets here searching for VS-1680 info...

The VS-1680 can sync via SPIDF Optical to Logic Pro 8 for the Mac and that will allow some added functionality?

Like Gary said, No; the S/PDIF cannot be used to Sync the device to anything, it can transfer digital audio (stereo only) to and from other devices, since the S/PDIF signal combines both the clock and audio info in the same signal, no other cables (like Word Clock) are needed; important to note that this has to be done in real time and...

Maybe file transfer? or even just 2 track digital import into Logic Pro?

Nope, no file transfer at all, literally play and record one track at a time

I'm still quite confused, the SPDIF can't be recorded?

Yes, as stated, but in real time, one track at a time

Mix a song on the VS "down mixed" to 2 ch stereo audio and capture the digital stream on a computer via SPDIF then import that into Logic or GB?

I never really got an answer as to whether or not your friend had a bunch of projects on his machine, but if he does, and you can't burn to CDs, this sounds faster and better...

One of the things that I wanted to do was to import and export WAV files using the Roland VS-1680. After some research and testing, I found a workflow that is extremely fast and quite easy. The method I use is to connect an external Zip drive to the back of the VS-1680. In my Windows 7 computer I also have an internal Zip drive. With all the gear I have, I have found it critical to have a few Zip drives as they seem to work with a lot of different gear, especially with early Roland products.

To export WAV files, I simply save the song I am working on to an external Epson ZIP drive using the Roland VS-1680. It’s fast and super easy to do using the SHIFT > F1 command to save the song. Then I take out the disk and walk into an adjacent room where I have my desktop computer and insert the Zip disk into an internal zip drive that I ripped from a spare Roland SP-808. After that, I fire up a program called VS WAVE Exporter that allowed me to select and export the song with all the tracks to WAV format. Then you can use your favorite DAW to load the WAV files and further mix or tweak the song. Everything lined up great. Later you can burn to CD which is probably faster than using the VS-1680.

[darthnVader]

I never really got an answer as to whether or not your friend had a bunch of projects on his machine, but if he does, and you can't burn to CDs, this sounds faster and better...

Sorry, he doesn't have anything saved on this unit other than one old beat track. He lost another VS-1680 in a fire, so that stuff is gone, but thanks for the clarifications.

I'll post back when I get a chance to test the SCSI CDR I ordered to let people know how it works.

[darthnVader]

I bid on a AVID MBOX 3 PRO and I'm likely to win it, but I didn't notice it only has 4 inputs and two of those a Mic inputs.

However it does have the breakout cable for SPDIF/MIDI that I was having an issue finding.

Likely I'l buy the Avid MBox Pro 8x8 and use the breakout cable with that.

It's just a used item but really for $50 it should be just as good with Logic or GB as the VS system is now as a stand-a-lone.

[mrhappy]

I STILL have a 1680, though I haven't fired it up in years! I thought it sounded quite good and I became 'reasonably' adept  getting around on it.

My main use for it was to track parts at home and later transfer those parts at a bigger studio by synching the 1680, initially to ADATs and then later ProTools. Roland made a nice travel case for that unit so it was easy to pack it up and drag it around. I remember it being mostly painless getting it to synch up for transfers. I think it was synched using MTC as I don't remember any SMPTE involved. The converters in the 1680 sounded good enough to skip S/PDIF and I THINK we could transfer more tracks at once that way?... a little foggy there!

The 1680 worked great for location recording too so it was used for things like choirs, various pianos, Hammond organs, etc. Nowadays that would be laptop territory but 20+ years ago it was a GREAT package that STILL wouldn't be much bigger than a laptop rig.

I only used the SCSI CDR for backups... could be fun to dig into that storage box and see what's there... NOT!!

They came out with Logic-VS that I tried briefly but all I had that would run it was a hand-me-down windows laptop and besides not be being familiar with Logic, it was painfully slow on that rig. Once Digidesign released the 001, I inherited the G4-400 from the studio and began using ProTools LE for recording/ transfers.

As far as the 1680 goes, I wouldn't hesitate to use it along side the newer 'fancy' gear of today but I wouldn't point anybody in that direction if they didn't already have one. I still reflect fondly on the 1680 and I'm hopeful that maybe someday soon I'll find a reason to re-integrate it into my pile of 'obsolete' stuff that I still use! Haha!

[darthnVader]

I did get Logic Pro 8 to work as the master in MIDI mode to the VS-1680, but I'm just unsure how I am to use this.

Am I supposed to use it in conjunction with the SPDIF?

Here is some info I can find about Logic-Audio 3.5 on the Mac and Logic Pro 8 on the Mac with the Roland.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/603600/Roland-Vs-1680.html?page=208

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3094637

Then this one post where someone claims to have gotten control of the sliders in Logic Pro X???

Hello everyone! This is my first post!

After many hours going through various forums, I finally got my VS-1680 to work with Logic Pro X as a MIDI controller! I can use faders to control the ones onscreen but here is the issue I am having:

While the faders do move in Logic as I move them physically on the VS-1680, they are not lined up right (ex. 0 db on the board is about 2.0 db in Logic). They also do not line up with the right tracks in Logic (ex. faders 1-7 on the VS-1680 all control the master on Logic, master on VS-1680 controls nothing). I can control ONLY the master track in Logic using sliders 1-7 on the VS-1680. The rest of the sliders do nothing and don't correspond to any of my tracks in Logic, even if I select them in the program.

Does anyone else know of a way to fix this? Also the faders seem to be the ONLY thing that sends a signal to Logic. The dials do nothing. I have marked with paper where the faders correspond in Logic for now but thought it was worth a shot to try and figure out.

Thanks!

Sadly I can't seem to register at VS-Planet??

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1684982

Anyone ever gotten this stuff to work with the Roland and a computer?

Also does anyone know where I can get a legal copy of Cakewalk 8, maybe someone here still has one?

So far I just gotten the play and stop buttons in LP8 to master the VS, but I can't figure how to set the one audio saved to the VS to play with this setup.

[darthnVader]

The VS-1680 can send and receive mixer settings and fadermovements as MIDI messages. You can use an external MIDIcontroller to control the VS-1680's faders

This is what I am trying to figure out how to do with Logic.

Also no joy on my SCSI CD-R only a few models were supported be Roland and they are way more used than I'd ever pay for one, tho I'm sure I could hack the Roland firmware to support other drives, I'll likely just use a DAT/Jazz/ or Zip drive, or an external SCSI HD.

The Following Burners are Roland Compatible.

VS-CDR I
VS-CDR II
VS-CDR III

From Plextor, The following from the Plexwriter series.

PX-W4220
PX-W8220 T/S
PX-W124TS
PX-1210TS

[GaryN]

Aarrrgh !

[darthnVader]

Aarrrgh !

How do you think I feel.

So close, yet so far away, but I did order some newer equipment that will likely do what Phil really wants to do. I'm just an addict to old tech and that makes me just want to figure how to play with this old stuff and get it to work as well as it can.

[smilesdavis]

There was a version of logic for those rolands

[chrisNova777]

There was a version of logic for those rolands

indeeed
but its just a cut down freebie LE version of Logic 3/4 better to just run logic 5.x

also attached is a pdf document with instructions on syncing between the VS units + the bundled logic version
the VS units were used by lots of big name producers... like masters at work (kenny dope + louie vega)

Logic VS
Once launched, Logic VS will automatically look for a VS recorder connected to your computer via a MIDI interface;
a warning message appears if Logic VS cannot find a VS unit connected.
If this occurs, verify MIDI settings on the VS recorder and check that your interface is properly installed.

MMC
choose to transmit MMC commands by click-holding the Sync button on the Transport window.

SOS Article dates
VS880 Digital Multitracker & VS8F1 Effects Board: March 1996
VS880 V-Xpanded Digital Multitracker: May 1997
VS880 S2: CD-writing Upgrade: January 1998
VS840 Digital Multitracker: May 1998
VS1680 Digital Multitracker: June 1998
VS1880 Digital Multitracker: July 2000
VS2480 Digital Multitracker: September 2001

[chrisNova777]

The ANSWER was:
NO. S/PDIF carries digital audio only. No data - sync or otherwise.
As in: No, you can't get sync and/or control signals such as MTC into and/or out of the S/PDIF connections on the VS-1680 and/or transfer files and/or import audio to Logic and/or other DAW on a Mac.

Not True from what ive researched.

"The SPDIF stream carries data AND clock timing" https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/spdif-code.383279/
which is why its neccessary to link two PCI audio multi-cards using a SPDIF cable to get them to sync up and act as one interface in ableton live on os9

https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/172143-spdif-vs-word-clock-question.html
Quote:is there anything inherently shaky in clocking through a SPDIF connection?
Yes. S/PDIF is a horrendously poorly designed interface. This is because it combines the clock and audio coding onto the same signal.

i think what garyn was eluding to was that you arent about to sync your whole studio by SPDIF (heh)

[mrhappy]

Hey darthnVader... you mentioned the 'VS-Planet' site... I used to go there back in 2001 and was able to log back in!!! Took a quick peek around and you should figure out how to register as there's a bunch of useful info there! I noticed a fairly recent post about synching the VS-1680. It's for ProTools but mentions a windows program called 'VS wave Export' that could be of interest. Here's a copy/paste...


As I post about this same topic some time ago....

Via MTC and the Roland as an slave to Pro Tools, it works perfect with my VS-1680 with SD card Mod and a Netbook running Pro Tools LE 8.

Usually I sync them to record Drums, bass and guitars at the same time, and with VS Wave Export I transfer all the recorded data in the VS and imported to the Pro Tools session.

If your intention is at one stage transfer all the tracks you record on the VS inside the Pro Tools session, if you do the transfer recording each track via analog…. Its not necesary to match the sample rate or the bit resolution…..
But,,,, if you do it like I do, transfer them via a Windows software called VS wave Export, here is better to match the bit and sample rate….

In this post I make some time ago you wiil see how I transfer the tracks recorded on the VS via this software….

http://www.vsplanet.com/ubbthreads/ubbth...177#Post1485177

I always record on both machines at 44.1khz 24 Bits.

Also, as I use an Mbox 2, I use the spdif coaxial output on the Mbox straight to the coaxial input of the 1680, this way I can monitor all in the 1680.

Hope this help you!

[chrisNova777]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqogRxMKGI[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqogRxMKGI
Roland VS880ex as Control Surface/Audio i/o for Logic 8 (or any DAW with midi/mmc)