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[Bolkonskij]

hey guys,

at my wit's end here with my 8600 running 7.6.1. It has been using the 2MB VRAM on the logic board so far for graphics. I've been given a Radeon 7000 Mac Edition (Thanks Knezzen!) that should allow for awesome graphics performance.

Prior to installing the hardware I FIRST downloaded and installed the drivers for the 7000 from the System 7 Today Help Center. Installation went fine. Next I installed the graphics card and closed the case. Connected the monitor via VGA to the graphics card.

Problem:
- On startup the screen stays black.
- No "Welcome to Macintosh" screen. Nothing, just dark.
- The Mac chimes OK. I can hear it booting up into the OS. Everything seems to work fine except the display signal.

Ok, no problem I thought. Let's hit that CUDA switch and it will set the display back. Wrong!

Except hitting the CUDA switch here's my list of things I've since tried to bring it back up:

- manually setting back PRAM and NVRAM (nope ...)
- trying to put the Radeon 7000 into another slot
- trying to boot with disabled extensions
- taking out the battery, swapping it with another battery
- trying two other monitors & vga cables, one of them an old CRT in case the Mac was set back to some flashy low res
- taking out the VRAM modules from the logicboard
- taking out the graphics card and the VRAM modules back in. Now even WITHOUT the card (but onboard VRAM) the screen stays dark.

I don't know what else I could possibly try. I've even never heard of this problem and what really bugs me is the fact it won't show anything even with everything reverted back to onboard VRAM.

Maybe some of you tech-wizards have an idea of what else I could try (or at least what could have happened) I'd highly appreciate.

[Syntho]

I would bet money that if you try it in another slot it'll work. My beige Powermacs give me the same problem so I'm forced to use them in the PCI slot that it wants it in.

[Bolkonskij]

Thanks for taking the time to replay, Syntho!

I've tried out 2 of the 3 available slots. Will try out the third one too, just to try everything. But shouldn't the Mac boot normally without the Radeon and the onboard VRAM? That's what baffles me. If I'd get a "Welcome to Macintosh" screen that turns dark after loading the ATI extensions, I'd understand what is going on. But it just stays pitch dark - no signal at all.

If anyone else has any ideas, I appreciate any help!

[Mat]

Just to be 100% sure, you got the correct Systme 7 driver?
https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#CL
Not the later Mac OS 8/9 one?

I would try to attach both monitors, one onboard and one to the Radeon at the same time. Also you could try to boot from CD.

[Syntho]

Is the video card working in another system?

[Bolkonskij]

Yes, I'm pretty sure it is the drivers for System 7. Like I wrote, I downloaded them from the System 7 Today Help Center and I know of others who used this driver and everything worked fine.

• If I set up two monitors (one on the Radeon, one on the logicboard) i still get nothing.
• I also tried the 3rd and last PCI slot but it won't work either.
• I don't have another system to test the card in it, but even if wouldn't properly work, it should at least give me a hardware failure beep or something, don't you think so?
• I forgot to mention before that I also did disconnect the HDD but it wouldn't show anything either.

Bummer, really loved that one  well I guess, as they say "never change a running system".

Edit: I checked the logicboard for visible damage, but nothing. Also the ports show no sign of any malfunction (i specifically looked for broken pins). This is really bizarre.

[Syntho]

Have you tried it in OS8?

[Mat]

That's really strange. I used my Umax, my 8600 and later my 9600 for a decade with the Radeon 7000. But always with 8.6 and 9.x

I would start with putting the card out and getting the onboard video again in a working condition. Subsequently putting out everything that is possible (other PCI cards, external stuff, SCSI, ...).
And than trying to get the Radeon working again, perhaps giving it a try with Mac OS 9 (from CD) to see if it is working in general.

[GorfTheChosen]

I would bet money that if you try it in another slot it'll work. My beige Powermacs give me the same problem so I'm forced to use them in the PCI slot that it wants it in.

I played that game last night, and the night before ... trying to get an ATTO ExpressPCI PSC to work in a 9600/350 running 9.1 (with a Sonnet G4/450 card) before I finally solved it... probably spent at least 6 hours on it all told, trying various things. The Mac would not boot at all (no chime) or would freeze before the extensions parade.

Finally stuck the card in a PC and it showed up ... so I stuck it in slot 5 in the PM (which I hadn't tried before) ... and attached a cable from Granite Digital that has an active terminator on it.

Booted right up.

After that it was on to testing ram ... finally got both banks filled with what I had, but it's still a couple hundred megs short of being maxed out.

[Syntho]

In my experience, some 9600s want different cards in different slots. A certain slot order would work in one but not the other. Maybe there was something else wrong, but they seem to be finicky no matter what.

[darthnVader]

I suspect the R7000 you have doesn't work at all, or doesn't have a Mac FCode ROM.

However, there is the case of a limitation of Ram that can be used by Open Firmware when it is setting up PCI cards. Some PCI cards don't play nice with the R7000 in Old World Macs, such as some PCI ATA cards.

As a work-a-round to that issue, I think, some people chose to remove the 'NDRV' from the R7000's FCode ROM, thus needing less Ram to Open Firmware.

Also there is the PCI-probe-list that can be used on the 8600 to disable one or more of the built in PCI devices, thus freeing up the needed Ram for Open Firmware.

[Bolkonskij]

@all - thanks for your thoughts, ideas, suggestions! :-)

I took the Radeon 7000 out of the 8600. Be it working or not, for now my main concern is:

I would start with putting the card out and getting the onboard video again in a working condition.

I'm stuck as to what to do next to get it working again?

Hitting the CUDA switch didn't make it come back, neither did setting PRAM / NVRAM back. Took out the battery (it saves screen resolution, does it?) and back in after a few minutes but to no avail.

Anyone having any more ideas as to what I could do to make the onboard video work again?

[darthnVader]

@all - thanks for your thoughts, ideas, suggestions! :-)

I took the Radeon 7000 out of the 8600. Be it working or not, for now my main concern is:

I would start with putting the card out and getting the onboard video again in a working condition.

I'm stuck as to what to do next to get it working again?

Hitting the CUDA switch didn't make it come back, neither did setting PRAM / NVRAM back. Took out the battery (it saves screen resolution, does it?) and back in after a few minutes but to no avail.

Anyone having any more ideas as to what I could do to make the onboard video work again?

Are you getting a boot chime?

I think I remember having an issue with my 8600 of too many CUDA resets leaving the system unbootable, but it's been so many years I don't remember exactly what fixed it.

It may have been booting the system with no ram at all installed, hearing the broken glass sound rather than the boot chime, then powering down and reinstalling the ram.

[IIO]

I think I remember having an issue with my 8600 of too many CUDA resets leaving the system unbootable, but it's been so many years I don't remember exactly what fixed it.

calling up boot manager should fix missing infos in the PRAM about buses and system folders.

[Bolkonskij]

@darthnvader

The Mac chimes OK as though all is fine. I can hear it booting up into the OS. Everything seems to work fine except there is no display signal. Screen just stays dark.

EDIT: I just took out the VRAM. Interestingly, the Mac still chimes OK when booting without any VRAM. Just swapped in another VRAM module that I had left to check that would make a difference but no.

[darthnVader]

Sounds like the built-in video controller( sixty-six ) maybe the trouble.

Could be likely as these logic boards are pushing 30.

Tho it could still be a CUDA issue, Apple had a warning about only pressing the CUDA reset button ONCE before a clean boot, so if you pressed it multiple times before you got a good boot, that could be an issue.

With New World Macs, fixing that, bad CUDA reset, was as simple as pressing and holding the power button until the system booted in to Open Firmware with the defaults loaded.

I'm sure there is some trick to recover Old World machines from a bad CUDA reset, but I'm not sure what it is.

Could try, make sure you disconnect all plugs, leave nothing plugged into your Mac, not even a KB. Open it, with the Battery installed, press the CUDA reset once, plug everything back in, and see if it boots.

Some other thoughts:

Old World Mac's default to the serial connection for Open Firmware, if you have another OWM with a serial port you could try Two-Machine booting to see if you can get into Open Firmware on the 8600 and find the issue.

Somewhere is the old docs on how to do that if someone would dig them up?

Also, if you are using a Apple display connector to VGA that has switches on it, make sure you didn't inadvertently switch it to a bad mode, or if it doesn't have switches, it maybe dead.

Using Plan-B could be an option if you have an old TV or Monitor will S-Video or Composite connector.

 On a side note, I think the only display I have with a Composite connector would be the Nav system in my car, how cool would the Happy Mac be on my car's display?

[Bolkonskij]

DarthVader - thank you very much for taking the time to reply!

Sounds like the built-in video controller( sixty-six ) maybe the trouble.

That would be really bad :-/ but shouldn't the boot chime resemble that and give me the broken glass sound?

Tho it could still be a CUDA issue, Apple had a warning about only pressing the CUDA reset button ONCE before a clean boot, so if you pressed it multiple times before you got a good boot, that could be an issue.

Aha! I wasn't aware of that. I did originally press it once but in the process of trying to recover it, I naturally had hit it a couple of times. Might be the issue then!

I'm sure there is some trick to recover Old World machines from a bad CUDA reset, but I'm not sure what it is.

Anyone?

Could try, make sure you disconnect all plugs, leave nothing plugged into your Mac, not even a KB. Open it, with the Battery installed, press the CUDA reset once, plug everything back in, and see if it boots.

Tried that. Same as before. Mac seems to boot fine, chimes fine - but only darkness on the screen.

Old World Mac's default to the serial connection for Open Firmware, if you have another OWM with a serial port you could try Two-Machine booting to see if you can get into Open Firmware on the 8600 and find the issue.

Phew...never tinkered with that stuff. I got a working Mac LC. I think I'll ask around and try to dig up something. Trying to find that kind of info via Google seems futile these days ...

Also, if you are using a Apple display connector to VGA that has switches on it, make sure you didn't inadvertently switch it to a bad mode, or if it doesn't have switches, it maybe dead.

After my last post I had the same thought. So I took a second (working!) one from my Mac LC, checking that I did not accidently changed the setting and plugged it in. But same result. :-/

Using Plan-B could be an option if you have an old TV or Monitor will S-Video or Composite connector.

Now, I accidently dug out a small late '90s TV set from the basement and literally dusted it off. The CRT still works fine, so I connected both using the RGB cables on the 8600 and the scart on the TV. Alas, same thing here. All deep black ...

here's one thing I wonder - while searching I found a ixMicro TwinTurbo PCI graphics card that would fit the 8600. I think it should still work. However, I wonder if it would work plug & play (I seem to remember it was sold bundled with some of these machines) or do i have to install drivers?

Might be good for a test ...

[darthnVader]

DarthVader - thank you very much for taking the time to reply!

Sounds like the built-in video controller( sixty-six ) maybe the trouble.

That would be really bad :-/ but shouldn't the boot chime resemble that and give me the broken glass sound?

Tho it could still be a CUDA issue, Apple had a warning about only pressing the CUDA reset button ONCE before a clean boot, so if you pressed it multiple times before you got a good boot, that could be an issue.

Aha! I wasn't aware of that. I did originally press it once but in the process of trying to recover it, I naturally had hit it a couple of times. Might be the issue then!

I'm sure there is some trick to recover Old World machines from a bad CUDA reset, but I'm not sure what it is.

Anyone?

Could try, make sure you disconnect all plugs, leave nothing plugged into your Mac, not even a KB. Open it, with the Battery installed, press the CUDA reset once, plug everything back in, and see if it boots.

Tried that. Same as before. Mac seems to boot fine, chimes fine - but only darkness on the screen.

Old World Mac's default to the serial connection for Open Firmware, if you have another OWM with a serial port you could try Two-Machine booting to see if you can get into Open Firmware on the 8600 and find the issue.

Phew...never tinkered with that stuff. I got a working Mac LC. I think I'll ask around and try to dig up something. Trying to find that kind of info via Google seems futile these days ...

Also, if you are using a Apple display connector to VGA that has switches on it, make sure you didn't inadvertently switch it to a bad mode, or if it doesn't have switches, it maybe dead.

After my last post I had the same thought. So I took a second (working!) one from my Mac LC, checking that I did not accidently changed the setting and plugged it in. But same result. :-/

Using Plan-B could be an option if you have an old TV or Monitor will S-Video or Composite connector.

Now, I accidently dug out a small late '90s TV set from the basement and literally dusted it off. The CRT still works fine, so I connected both using the RGB cables on the 8600 and the scart on the TV. Alas, same thing here. All deep black ...

here's one thing I wonder - while searching I found a ixMicro TwinTurbo PCI graphics card that would fit the 8600. I think it should still work. However, I wonder if it would work plug & play (I seem to remember it was sold bundled with some of these machines) or do i have to install drivers?

Might be good for a test ...

The settings for that connection are 38,400 baud, 8 bits, 1 stop bit, no parity, XOn/XOff enabled.

https://www.scribd.com/document/195585352/Open-Firmware-Technical-Note-TN1061

[darthnVader]

The PM8600 has 6 PCI connections, three are built-in devices, and they are not part of the Power on self test.

So you would get a boot chime even if the built-in video( Sixty-Six ) is not working, because it's just a PCI device that can be disabled via the PCI-Probe-List mask in Open Firmware, and the Mac will still boot.

The IXMicro card doesn't require any drivers to display boot video, it has an FCode ROM and a full 'NDRV' so it can take part in the boot process before the Mac OS drivers load.

If you can't get video from the ixMicro card, likely something is going wrong with the probing of your PCI busses, and we can't rule out a bad CUDA reset.

Try and set up two machine mode via my last post and we'll see if you can get into Open Firmware, that may tell us the state of the PCI busses.

[Syntho]

Another tip is to try booting from an OS8 or System 7 installation CD. Thereafter, when you have the card in the machine and you install an OS, it'll pull the appropriate drivers from your installation CD and will install the correct ones. I'm unsure if a System 7 CD will have ATI drivers, but at the very least try booting from one of those installation CDs and see if you get a screen.