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[Mardeec]

I’m trying to get a Firewire 410 to work with Cubasis VST 2.0 on an iMac G3, OS 9.2.2. 500 Mhz, 384 Mb RAM, 10Gb HD.  The main problem is that the Control Panel is not visible.  It appears to launch, i.e., the menu is visible and it shows up in the Applications Menu, but the Control Panel doesn’t display.  Within the Control Panel menus, Edit and View are grayed out.

I installed the “FWUni_OS9_1.0.4_b42” driver, which I obtained through Supernova777’s post (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1933.msg11665#msg11665) of  drivers he obtained through the M-Audio Japan site.  There is an OS9 driver for the Firewire 410 listed on the M-Audio US site, but it’s actually an OMS driver (OMS2_3_8.sit).

Within Cubasis, I copied “M-Audio Firewire ASIO” to the ASIO folder, and Options/Audio Setup/System has the ASIO device set to M-Audio Firewire ASIO.  Within the iMac Extension Manager, I set the Input to M-Audio Firewire Input (Device=M-Audio Firewire SM) and the Output to M-Audio Firewire SM.

I just installed 9.2.2 using the “Mac OS 9.2.2 Universal Install - ISO CD Image” and turned off extensions according to Die Hard’s “Extensions, Control Panels, and General Tweaks after Install” (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2765.0).  I installed the Firewire 410 driver, shutdown, then connected the Firewire 410 and rebooted.  I’m using 6 pin firewire cable and not using external power (although I have the AC adapter).  The Firewire 410 manual says NOT to use external power with 6 pin cable, but I've seen posts that say M-audio support told them to use both bus and external power. 

The Firewire 410 appears to connect (the blue LED is solid), but I’m not getting any sound when I play back the Cubasis demo song.  Cubasis runs fine if I use the iMac’s native audio in/out.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Marty

[DieHard]

Hi Marty...

Can't remember if I used this ASIO driver with the 410... please try it (even though it says "audiophile FW") and let me know if it works...
https://www.adrive.com/public/DU239p/M-Audio%20Firewire%20Audiophile

Also, I would ALWAYS use the Ac adapter and NOT power by bus, this will take load off the MB regardless of what the manual says, and DON'T Hot swap M-Audio FW interfaces, connect BEFORE Mac power on

[GaryN]

Within the iMac Extension Manager, I set the Input to M-Audio Firewire Input (Device=M-Audio Firewire SM) and the Output to M-Audio Firewire SM.

You set WHAT input and output to M-Audio Firewire SM? The Mac internal audio? You should leave the Mac system audio on Sound Manager because it can override any other app trying to use the Firewire audio.

Are the Firewire Enabler and Firewire Support system extensions loaded and checked on in Extensions Manager?

Also, if that's not the trick, if there is a Sound Manager ASIO driver in your Cubasis ASIO folder, try removing it temporarily so the only ASIO driver in there is the M-Audio.

DieHard has the other (last) resort started for you - that's where you locate, download and test every M-Audio driver even vaguely related to the 410 - including earlier and/or later versions of them.

The fact that you cannot get the Control Panel to display means it's not loading properly, is corrupt, has a conflict with something, or …?
Try booting with only 9.2.2 Base extensions + the M-Audio Control Panel + the above Firewires (if they're not in the base set)

STOP!! I started getting curious so I started looking. I may be crazy, but as far as I can tell:

There is not now nor has there ever been an OS9-or-below control panel for the Firewire 410 !

There appear to be 2 or 3 versions for 10.2, 10.3, and maybe 10.4, but none for the old Mac OS.
This includes both M-Audio sites (US and Japan) and the Driver Guide Database.
This would explain why the only thing found is OMS. That would take care of the MIDI part.
It's just possible that any parameter you need to change that can't be controlled from your DAW either doesn't get changed, or requires you to boot into OSX to change. It's just possible they never wrote an OS9 control panel for the damn thing - period!

Does anybody know better? Now would be the time to jump in.

FWIW, ALL parameters in my M-Audio Deltas that really need changing are controlled by my DAW. I have monitoring control panels but the Deltas don't have any external controls, so they're mandatory if you're working in-the-box only.

Monitoring / foldback may be limited to the controls on the 410. Sample rate and such should just follow Cubasis.

Again, I'm NOT the final authority by any means but unless somebody has a better theory…?

The stuff above at the top hopefully will contain the solution to getting the 410 to at least pass audio. The control panel or lack of one is a separate issue.

[Mardeec]

DieHard and Gary, thanks for looking into this issue.  I tried the driver DieHard suggested.  I did the install, shutdown, then connected the 410 using external power.

When I opened Cubasis, I got the message “Unable to find an M-Audio Firewire audio device.”  Under Control Panels, there is a listing for “M-Audio FW Audiophile.app,” but when I try to open it I get the message “No Firewire Audiophile devices were found."

I think I’ll go back and do a clean install of the “FWUni_OS9_1.0.4b42” driver and see how that goes.  I had tried another driver (for the Firewire 1814) provided by Supernova777, but I didn’t fully uninstall 1.0.4b42, so I’ll be more careful and try again.

You set WHAT input and output to M-Audio Firewire SM? The Mac internal audio? You should leave the Mac system audio on Sound Manager because it can override any other app trying to use the Firewire audio.

I’m sorry, I meant to say that in the Sound Control Panel, I made these settings:

Input = M-Audio Firewire Input
Output = M-Audio Firewire SM

Should I use other settings?

FWIW, the FW410 manual gives instructions for an OS9 install, but in the hours I’ve spent researching the 410, it seems to be plagued by driver problems in both Mac and Windows.  If I can’t get the audio going, I may end up using it just as a MIDI interface.

Thanks again for your help, and I’ll report back on what happens.  DieHard, thank you again for the 9.2.2 image.  I’m new to Macs, but that was an easy install on this old iMac.

Marty 

[Mardeec]

I was able to get some audio, at least temporarily from the 410.  Here’s what I did:

Uninstall the M-audio Firewire drivers.  I had two: 1.0.4 from supernova777 and 1.0.2 from DieHard.
Uninstall Cubasis

I then reinstalled the M-audio Firewire 1.0.4 driver and Cubasis, in that order.  I copied “M-Audio Firewire ASIO” to the ASIO Drivers folder in Cubasis.  In the Apple Sound Control Panel, I set the input & ouput to the Firewire 410.  In Cubasis under Options/Audio Setup/System, I set the ASIO Device to M-Audio Firewire ASIO.

Opening a demo song in Cubasis, I was able to get some audio, but only from the line outputs.  No output from the headphone jacks.  The sound was horrible, with a constant high pitched whistle.  The output LEDs on the 410 were pegged, and adjusting the mixer in Cubasis had no effect.  I still was not able to launch the M-Audio Firewire control panel, either from within Cubasis or from the Apple Control Panels.

I tried rebooting with Base Extensions + the M-Audio extensions, and then I wasn’t able to get any sound at all.  In Cubasis, the ASIO Device setiting had reverted to "Apple Sound Manager," and when I changed it back to "M-Audio Firewire ASIO", still no sound. 

At this point, I noticed there was no M-Audio Control Panel listed Extensions Manager control panel.  Under Apple Menu/Control Panels, I see a listing for “M-Audio Firewire.app,” but there’s no M-Audio control panel shown in the Extensions Manager control panel.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to review this problem, but as Gary suggested, the only option may be trying various drivers.  The fact that M-Audio doesn’t list any OS9 audio drivers (only OMS), may be telling. 

Thanks again,

Marty

[DieHard]

Hmmm...

at this point if you are sticking with OS9 then getting a cheaper FW audiophile from ebay may do the trick; I know it will work perfectly with very good quality with the software I uploaded.  The 410 would obviously be the best choice for OSX with better tracking options, so you have to make a decision of which OS you are going to be using.  With a G3, I would use the FW audiophile in OS 9 and sell or pack away the 410;  if you cannot find a FW audiophile, I have at least 2 in mint condition in storage, if you need one, I can let one go for $60 plus shipping, just PM Me

[Mardeec]

Thanks for the suggestion re: using an FW Audiophile interface in place of the FW 410.  Does the FW Audiophile have a software control panel or is it controlled within the DAW?  I'll think this over and let you know if I'm interested in one of your FW Audiophiles.

Marty

[Jakl]

Hey Diehard what other gems do you still have in storage that we could buy?? Let us all know - thanks.

[GaryN]

I’m sorry, I meant to say that in the Sound Control Panel, I made these settings:

Input = M-Audio Firewire Input
Output = M-Audio Firewire SM

Should I use other settings?

YES! Read what I wrote carefully. In the Sound Control Panel, set the input and output to Sound Manager - NOT the 410. The Sound Control Panel controls the Mac system audio; as in beeps, buzzes and things that arrive via iTunes, browsers etc.

With it set to the 410, you've got the Mac system audio competing with Cubasis or whatever else has an ASIO driver for control of the ASIO "bus".

There can only be ONE customer at a time using the ASIO - PERIOD.

You want that to be Cubasis - nothing else.

After you change that, pull the "M-Audio Firewire.app" OUT of wherever it's at onto the desktop, double-click it and see if it opens. It just might be a stand-alone app. If it doesn't launch, report back exactly what error message you get.

NOTES:
I also said try with 9.2.2 Base extensions, the M-audio ones AND the Apple Firewire Enabler and Support extensions.
Without the Apple ones on, neither are your Firewire ports.

The whistle you heard was probably feedback from the mixed connections. The fact that some kind of audio actually made it through is a good sign!

Keep at it. If there was M-Audio OS9 support, you'd have this in an instant. Without it, you just have to work through the possibilities.

[Mardeec]

Gary,

I was encouraged by your last post, but now there’s a new problem: whenever the FW410 is connected, I’m not able to pull down menus or open folders.  I can move the cursor with the mouse, but if I click/double click on anything, nothing happens.  Without the FW 410 connected, I can open menus and folders as usual. 

Here’s what I’ve done:

YES! Read what I wrote carefully. In the Sound Control Panel, set the input and output to Sound Manager - NOT the 410. The Sound Control Panel controls the Mac system audio; as in beeps, buzzes and things that arrive via iTunes,

I finally understand!  This is just the opposite of Windows, so it took a while to sink in.  Within the Sound Control Panel, I don’t see a selection for “Sound Manager” per se, but I see these options:

Name                     Device
Built-in Mic             Built-in
CD                       Internal CD
External Mic             Built in
Internal Modem           Built-in
M-Audio FW Input         M-Audio FW SM
Sound in                 Built-in
None                     Built-in

I assume that any of the “Built-in” options would be under the control of Sound Manager, so I selected “None.”

After you change that, pull the "M-Audio Firewire.app" OUT of wherever it's at onto the desktop, double-click it and see if it opens. It just might be a stand-alone app. If it doesn't launch, report back exactly what error message you get.

I could get the “M-Audio Firewire.app” onto the desktop only when the FW410 was not connected.  When I double-clicked on it without the FW410 connected, I get a popup telling me to shutdown, connect the FW410, then reboot.

I also said try with 9.2.2 Base extensions, the M-audio ones AND the Apple Firewire Enabler and Support extensions.
Without the Apple ones on, neither are your Firewire ports.

Yup, I made sure I had Base extensions, all the M-Audio extensions, and the Apple Firewire Authoring Support, Firewire Enabler, and Firewire Support.

I had poked around with installing OMS 2.3.8, and didn’t really know what I was doing, so I uninstalled that.  I had also installed a game (Pong II, I guess to try to relieve the stress of trying to get the FW410 to work!), and I uninstalled that, but the problem with not being able to pull down menus or open folders persisted. 

At this point, would it be best to do a clean install of 9.2.2, Cubasis, and the M-Audio FW 410 drivers?  I can’t but think that something I did fooling around with OMS and Pong is causing the menu/folder problem.

BTW, the Read Me file for the “FWUni_OS9_1.0.4b42” driver indicates it is for OS 9 and covers all the M-Audio FW interfaces (410, 1814, Audiophile).

Thanks for walking me through all this!  I was ready to give up, but now that I understand Sound Manager/ASIO better, it seems like it would work.

Marty

[Jakl]

Maybe try installing OMS before the 410 driver - maybe a midi driver for the 410 might need to be placed into the OMS folder to allow midi syncing or driver may reference OMS in some way - just trial and error I guess.

Also, why not install Cubase VST24/4.1 Ive had great success with this version on a iMac G3 running at 400mhz even using >20 tracks. Cubase VST32/5.1 was slower.

So install Cubase VST24/4.1r2 then install OMS then install your drivers for the 410 and see how that goes - then let us know what happened.

[GaryN]

Aaargh!!! Man, you have my honest sympathy! You've got one of the really great hair-pullers going there!

OK… You are (I think) getting closer. I'm just not sure to what…

For your purposes, Sound Manager = "built-in" = Sound Manager.

The chart you posted is as it should be except for "M-Audio FW Input >> M-Audio FW SM" There's something hinky there but I'm not exactly sure what it is. The label "M-Audio FW SM" is odd.

What's odder (odder?) though, is the new issue where connecting the 410 freezes the desktop. It reeks of some kind of data feedback loop.

I think it should say "M-Audio FW Input >>Cubasis ASIO" or something similar. You want stuff going IN to the 410 to come FROM Cubasis and that's thru ASIO.
 "M-Audio FW SM" might mean Sound Manager and there's your loop.

The part where:  "I could get the “M-Audio Firewire.app” onto the desktop only when the FW410 was not connected.  When I double-clicked on it without the FW410 connected, I get a popup telling me to shutdown, connect the FW410, then reboot."    sounds absolutely correct!(except for the struck-thru part)

It's saying what I suspected: It's NOT a control panel but rather a stand-alone App you launch to tweak the 410. It should probably go into the "Apple Menu Items" folder so it's always available right under the (duh) apple menu.

It wants you to connect the 410 so that when you next launch it, it will be able to "see" the 410 and adjust itself accordingly (remember, it's universal). The loop (or whatever it is) that starts when you plug it in is preventing this from happening though.

I think we might be down to the ASIO driver being the rat in the basement here.

Again, in your Cubasis ASIO folder there should be: ONE got-it-from-Steinberg ASIO driver. You just might have the wrong one of those.

Normally, you would think that the one that was with the Cubasis app when you downloaded it would be the right one BUT normally, you probably wouldn't have been using a Firewire 410 back in the day when Cubasis came out. You may have to trial-and-error your way through a few ASIOs.

Two questions:
1) Is this starting to feel more at home like Windoze yet?
2) You don't have anything else connected to a firewire port that you haven't mentioned do you? Well, do ya, punk? OK, I'm getting really silly now…

DieHard is the Steinberg guy and he's probably following this thread with great amusement…hiopefully

Got any different ASIO drivers DH?

[GaryN]

JUST ONE MORE THING…

I just reviewed this entire saga from the top and my theory follows:

Keep your mind in Mac-land. This is NOT Windoze and it's becoming obvious that there is NO M-Audio FireWire driver like you're used to being required in Windoze. The 410 presents itself as a "FireWire" class-compliant device and as such, is handled by the Apple FireWire Enabler and Support extensions. Simple!

The only "drivers" needed are: The ASIO to get audio through that bus and in and out thru FireWire, and

OMS to handle the MIDI in and out.

I'm going to bed now. My head hurts…

[mrhappy]

OK… You are (I think) getting closer. I'm just not sure to what…

I LOVE this line!!!

[DieHard]

The only "drivers" needed are: The ASIO to get audio through that bus and in and out thru FireWire, and

OMS to handle the MIDI in and out.

Well Yes... and No...  Most of the M-Audio interfaces still will need a type of "Control Panel" to change the interface settings as far as sample rate, output settings, clock changes, buffer size, etc. and in Cubase (even with the ASIO driver) the "Audio Settings" will most likely want you to launch the device control panel to make these changes; however, if you are leaving the factory defaults, the ASIO will be all you need to record and playback, so you are correct if no changes need to be made.

Lastly, many different brands of interfaces give the option to route the Mac OS system sound thru the interface... this is almost always a total nightmare with distortion... no volume control, odd behavior of app output, and the inability to balance the OS beeps and prompts with your studio audio sources... so I recommend across the board for ALL interfaces to skip this option (unless you are attempting a rare setup like using Proools free).  Simply buy a $2 cable with eight inch jack and route your system sound to a channel on you mixer or a separate set of $10 speakers, this will leave the Mac OS sound control panel unaltered which is how OS 9 likes it to be... in the long run, you will thank me

[Mardeec]

You guys are the best!  I may not have audio coming out of my FW 410 yet, but I am getting a total immersion orientation to sound and OS 9.  For someone who's used only Windows since what, 1992, this isn't coming easy, but I appreciate the thought, patience, and hours (especially Gary!) you've given to helping with this problem.  I have a Windows-based setup I'm happy with (Focusrite 6i6, Cubase LE4, Windows 7), but something about that iMac is drawing me in.  I was lucky to find MacOS 9 Lives and appreciate all the help you've given me so far.

At this point, I think I better start over with a fresh install of 9.2.2...who knows what damage I did before I came to you for help?  After that, I'll follow the install sequence Jakl recommended,   and use all the settings Gary suggested.  This might take me a day or two, but I'll let you know how it goes.  I'll keep better notes this time around so if this actually works, I can post a good summary in case some other poor soul wants to use a FW 410.

Marty

[GaryN]

Well Yes... and No...  Most of the M-Audio interfaces still will need a type of "Control Panel" to change the interface settings as far as sample rate, output settings, clock changes, buffer size..........

Exactly. What I'm doing here is trying to clarify the differences between Windows drivers (where you needed a separate bit of software for practically every single thing you dared to plug into the computer) and a Mac where the FireWire just works (the way Mr. Jobs said). Also the M-Audio "control panel" is an app as opposed to a Control Panel that lives in the System Folder. Notice the difference in the way I capitalize those words.

Fortunately, we've yet to get into the part where we explain that some "Control Panels" are in fact, Apps that live in the Control Panel folder just because they get used like a Control Panel. All of this, which seems simple to the long-time Mac user, can quickly drive a former Windows user nuts and send them screaming into the streets how the Macintosh is ridiculously complicated, doesn't even have a "Start" menu and makes no sense at all! Reminded that elementary schools are loaded with easy-to-use Macs, they just have to de-program themselves form their established Windoze thinking patterns. Mardeec is doing this now and doing it very well!

[DieHard]

I think I better start over with a fresh install of 9.2.2...who knows what damage I did before I came to you for help?  After that, I'll follow the install sequence Jakl recommended

One bonus with Mac OS9 is that once you get familiar with it's layout, there is no need to attack it like windows with a "fresh install", there is NO REGISTRY !  so "Fresh Installs" are rarely needed; simply delete the extensions that are related to the device or app. (you can sort the extensions by application so you can figure out what has to be deleted); same goes with added controls panels.  Also, simply deleting the specific applications "Preferences" under the System Folder / preferences is sometimes all you need to do and re-install the app.  OS 9 is modular by design (with no database/registry to worry about screwing up) and rarely needs the common windows approach of "Nuke everything and re-install from scratch"

From Gary

Fortunately, we've yet to get into the part where we explain that some "Control Panels" are in fact, Apps that live in the Control Panel folder just because they get used like a Control Panel. All of this, which seems simple to the long-time Mac user, can quickly drive a former Windows user nuts and send them screaming into the streets

OMG, that is a great point, similar to the "no registry concept"  In Mac OS, there is no "merging" of hardware specific modules being called references in a database/registry.  There is no 'Spagetti code" to get unraveled when you install things in the "wrong order".  Even the Hardware controls and just apps as Gary mentioned.  Again, a modular concept, where the OS and the extensions to it are separate and can be very easily separated at will, without the need to rebuild the whole thing.  Your OS 9 foundation is simply that, the ground level, laid is stone, and the other additions are modular

[Mardeec]

I guess I’m showing my Windows heritage by reaching for the OS clean install!  If you don’t think I need to re-install 9.2.2, I’ll give it a try.  As I understand it, to remove the FW410 and Cubasis installs, I should do this:

-Drag application folders to trash.
-Drag app related extensions and control panels to trash.
-Check for specific application Preferences under the System Folder / Preferences and drag to trash.

After that I’ll reinstall in this order:

1. Cubasis
2. OMS
3. FW410

Before I embark on this adventure, I have to ask about the Cubasis20.toast.bin file.  I downloaded it to my iMac and used StuffIt Expander to decode the downloaded file.  I then changed the .toast extension to .iso and used TransMac http://www.acutesystems.com/scrtm.htm  (on a Windows computer) to burn the CD.  Cubasis seemed to install ok, but just want to make sure that dipping into the Windows world didn’t cause problems. 

I’ve been re-reading the FW410 and Cubasis manuals, and came across this from the FW410 manual:

“Once the operating system loads, go to Control Panels, select Sound, then select the Output tab. Click on M-Audio FireWire 410 to select FireWire 410 as your default audio device.”

Does this make sense?  It goes against Gary’s advice to set Input and Output in the Sound Control Panel to “Built-in.”  The manual doesn’t say anything about the Input tab on the Sound Control Panel.

Jakl, if I can get this FW410 to work with Cubasis, I’ll give Cubase VST24/4.1 a try.

Thanks to you all for your continuing help with this problem!

Marty

[Jakl]

With reference to;

I’ve been re-reading the FW410 and Cubasis manuals, and came across this from the FW410 manual:
“Once the operating system loads, go to Control Panels, select Sound, then select the Output tab. Click on M-Audio FireWire 410 to select FireWire 410 as your default audio device.”
Does this make sense?  It goes against Gary’s advice to set Input and Output in the Sound Control Panel to “Built-in.”  The manual doesn’t say anything about the Input tab on the Sound Control Panel.

Many companies that make audio interfaces for macos9 had drivers for the apple soundmanager and ASIO. Most of the time if they were used together (for system sounds + running an audio application through ASIO) they would conflict with each other - I think it had something to do with reaching for the same extension at once - who knows?
So releasing the apple soundmanager driver before using the ASIO driver - IOW selecting built-in to input and output in the sound control panel before say starting up Cubasis ASIO audio may work better.
Now I have never used a FW410 so I couldn't say whether it works in Cubasis + Soundmanager together. You'll have to try it out yourself. Try releasing the Soundmanager driver(Sound Control Panel to built-in) and see if the ASIO driver works in Cubasis. Let the Forum know the results for your trials.

Why use Cubasis when you've got Cubase VST24? Just download the Image burn to disk - put disk in - install from 4.1 r2 upgrade file and I tell you you won't regret it. It's the highend of the two apps. Maybe even better support for those drivers - who knows?