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Author Topic: machine specific versions of mac os provide accellerated enhanced performance?  (Read 14787 times)

supernova777

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i just restored both my powermac g3 B&W and my sawtooth to their original
hd images from their original "restore" disks..


-b&w g3 450mhz PCI -> 8.6 machine specific


-sawtooth g4 450mhz AGP -> 8.6 machine specific

the machines both seem 2x as fast visually when using the finder + clicking files
folders.. scrolling.. everything is 'accellerated' over what it was running 9.2.2

i really believe that the "Finder" is tweaked for this machine because it "feels faster"
the way that my mdd felt.. im starting to understand the mdd feels fast like
that on the mdd because the 9.2.2 version is the right "machine specific" version for *IT*

i realy think that the updater patches are coded in a way that they retain the
optimized machine specific code for alot of apps.. im going to try patching up
on the b&w to os 9.0 and see if it retains the "Quickness" that i see
after installing its original OS VS the 9.2.2 draginstall + os9general.dmg versions
that i was running on it before..

my findings are consistant with "arjen_1"'s claims that his quicksilver acts alot faster
with its original installation aswell... my quicksilver will be the next on my list to restore;)
then i will have to hunt down the original MDD restore discs aswell for my mdd's!!!!!

im excited to realize enhanced + accellerated performance!!!!

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1835
the machine specific versions are noted in this chart by "(3)" but this chart isnt exact
for example my g3 450mhz b&W will not boot 8.5 or 8.5.1 - because it shipped with a specific tweaked
version of 8.6 (which ive just restored;) im sure there is other "slight erroneous anomolies"
 in order to be 100% exact u must cross reference data
from everymac or another site like mactracker, with your specific mac serial lookup
which is supposed to show u when the mac was manufactured and which number of the sequence it was etc

another thing to note is that using the 9.2.2 (which diehard took from the mdd?) before i basically thought these older machines
were shit and not worth using.. because they kept crashing alot and it seems all of that weirdness
has vanished!!!!!!!!!!!

further examples: right now on my sawtooth g4 450mhz it has a geforce 4mx graphics card.. when im moving finder windows
i see a slow unaccellerate vertical rollup refresh.. which tells me that this driver is not present in the os..
so im about to remove this quicksilver card and replace it back with the ati rage pro card that the machine came with

i will probably do this with all my other machines aswell to get the intended enhanced performance originally intended by apple!

another resource to view original versions : http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_capability/minimum-macos-supported.html
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 08:05:43 AM by chrisNova777 »
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supernova777

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ok guys so
after much research
http://lowendmac.com/1999/power-mac-g4-sawtooth/
this article has helped me to figure out the timing of my sawtooth agp:
Quote
VRAM: 16 MB
Video: ATI Rage 128 Pro in AGP 2x slot (was Rage 128 prior to December 1999); supports resolutions to 1600 x 1200 with 32-bit support, includes VGA and DVI ports.
my g4 450mhz does indeed have this "pro" version of the rage 128 that features the dvi port.
so my mac must be from December 1999 - January 2000 - or the first 2 weeks of February 2000.. because on the 16th of Feb 2000 the Sawtooth was pulled + replaced by the Gigabit Ethernet/Mystic model, which I know shipped with its version of os 9.04.

So i've figured that my specific AGP Sawtooth must have came with these 9.02 discs that were issued between Oct 23 1999 (when 9.0 was released) and the 9.04 version of the gigabit/mystic which began shipping february 16 2000



i've just bought on ebay the original 9.0.2 software install & restore discs from someone not far from my home for $20. I hope to get these shortly and i will obviously make copies of them to make them available for any other owners of the sawtooth 400/450/500 mhz AGP non-gigabit models!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 05:01:06 AM by chrisNova777 »
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arjen_1

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Hi Chris,
I have tested my quicksilver twice and I am still amazed about the difference in performance. The original system is just so much more reliable and faster. Great that you can confirm a similar experience. Reassures my sanity.  ;D
Greetz,
Arjen
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Powermac g4 933mhz quicksilver

supernova777

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im not sure why it is, im trying to think further on what it is that could exactly be optimized... but i think its mostly the finder that seems to be optimized + tweaked.. and perhaps file access via its specific disk controller.. what other aspects of the motherboard can be unique?
i know on the sawtooth i think the uninorth chipset... im pretty certain they spent time+money to finely tune these versions for max performance on the specific hardware, although like u, i still like to look at this objectively and consider the possibility that its all in my head LOL

as we all know 9.22 from an mdd will boot just fine on the lower models that came previously and works but i  think that version is also finely tuned for the chipsets in the mdd which would explain why the zippyness is just not the same when using the 10.2.1 rom version of 9.22 on a lowly 300-500mhz pci or agp mac.... 

strange pauses and hesitations in the finder when clicking folders, explained crashes + freezes when using 9.22 would seem to be consistant with the beleif that its optmized for a chipset not present in these previous macs
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supernova777

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i also found these cds which appear to be a slighly different color.. also from 1999.. but these feature os 9.0
rather then 9.02, or 9.04
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Protools5LEGuy

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the machines both seem 2x as fast visually when using the finder + clicking files
folders.. scrolling.. everything is 'accellerated' over what it was running 9.2.2

Hi Chris,
I have tested my quicksilver twice and I am still amazed about the difference in performance. The original system is just so much more reliable and faster. Great that you can confirm a similar experience. Reassures my sanity.  ;D
Greetz,
Arjen

Please, why dont you TEST it!

The 1kwindows test should bust this myth.
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supernova777

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did u not hear what _BT said? he said he was told this fact from the os9 programmers themselves..
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1754.msg8252#msg8252

Quote
every G4 has a different operating system. Read that again. This is from talking to the Mac development team that wrote OS9, all the versions (9-9.2.2) are machine specific.

its a bit different to say.. "i think " or "i suspect" this is a confirmed fact from a composer who has had intimate dealings with apple directly... are u saying he is lying or fabricating this story? for what purpose does he have to lie to us? this is not some foolish kid talking shit for some attention...! if he says he spoke directly to the mac os9 development team back in the day, then we should believe him..  its my gut feeling that this guy is credible + would not make such a claim if it werent 100% true fact that he was informed of directly from the source... and also, if it was true, it is consistant with all of the wierd problems that people have had over the years - they can all be explained by the idea that these macs were running the wrong version of os9 for that mac.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 05:56:06 AM by chrisNova777 »
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MacTron

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Please, why dont you TEST it!

The 1kwindows test should bust this myth.

Yes, I'll like to see some test results also, that show those claims ...
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supernova777

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you both are free to test  ::) same as i, or anyone else is free to test... go right ahead!
you do the test exactly how you like.. its not like it takes that long -- to do ASR system "restore in place" takes 5 min to restore all system files
to originals.. if you have the system restore disc for your specific machine it will have this hd image on it.. with the ASR program ready to go
giving u 100% original install + rom + drivers/extensions, use the system like this for 1 day then go back to 9.22.

if you are using an MDD with 9.22 + rom 10.2.1 you are already using the right version for your mac's motherboard so you know the results already without even knowing!!
if u use the mdd's version on sawtooth or B&W.. its not the same as its original install... this is what i know.
Arjen says the same for his quicksilver.. this is what he knows..i will test soon my quicksilver to see what arjen sees about the 933mhz..

which other macs do u have between a g3 B&W + an mdd?
do u have a yosemite? sawtooth? a yikes? digital audio? a quicksilver? a gigabit/mystic?
u will need one of these to test... the overall feel of the mac is more responsive + tight..

i dont have numbers to back this up, i have my own personal experience.. with what ive see with my eyes.
this 1k window test actually would be something really applicable to testing this because i feel personally
that it is the finder that is most optimized.
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MacTron

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you both are free to test  ::) same as i, or anyone else is free to test... go right ahead!
I've done the test, that's why I've stated in several occasions that this is a myth. Mac Os 9.2.2 against Mac Os 8.6 in to a Sawtoth and a near to identical configuration.
Result: Mac Os 8.6 was 4% faster than Os 9.2.2 in some test. And Mac Os 9.2.2 was 4% faster than Os 8.6 in most of the test.
So if you are claiming the opossite...
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Protools5LEGuy

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you both are free to test  ::) same as i, or anyone else is free to test... go right ahead!


which other macs do u have between a g3 B&W + an mdd?


I have a rev. 1 G3 B&W originally 350 with a G3 450 card. ATI Rage 128 GL with DVD decoder. That blue thing can go  8.5.1, 8.6 http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/specs/powermac_g3_350_bl.html but it has a CPU only used in 8.6 http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/specs/powermac_g3_450_bl.html

I have the worst DA (466) http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_466.htmlwith the best QS cpu, the GHz dual http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1ghz_dp_qs.html, and this thing have a the original ATI Rage Pro 128 with the VGA and ADC port, but rare AGPx4 (I Think). This take Digi001 and AP2496. This thing was sold with 9.1, but the cpu was from the 9.2.2 age.

I have the worst MDD (866 dual at 133 bus) with a GeForce 2 MX 64Mb .

It is complicated for me to choose the "optimal" os9 for them. I still have a bad OS in the MDD
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supernova777

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I've done the test, that's why I've stated in several occasions that this is a myth. Mac Os 9.2.2 against Mac Os 8.6 in to a Sawtoth and a near to identical configuration.
Result: Mac Os 8.6 was 4% faster than Os 9.2.2 in some test. And Mac Os 9.2.2 was 4% faster than Os 8.6 in most of the test.
So if *you* are claiming the opossite...

so you have the sawtooth 8.6 cd???????
because if u dont have the original restore disk that lets u restore to it.. u didnt do the test right.
i have only acheived the proper os (8.6) on my powermac g3 450..(via software restore of original hd image) the sawtooth -- I DONT HAVE THE DISK! (hence the thread) so i cant claim the sawtooth is running the proper machine specific os at all.yes i hacked it and made it work, but its not working properly. i have been struggling with all kinds of problems, AS NOTED in the thread...no ethernet, no firewire, no sleep, mac os setup assistant instantly crashes, happy mac logo at boot up appears with blank space around it over top of the checkered pattern (not like it should) im sure there are other symptoms


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supernova777

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I have a rev. 1 G3 B&W originally 350 with a G3 450 card. ATI Rage 128 GL with DVD decoder. That blue thing can go  8.5.1, 8.6 http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/specs/powermac_g3_350_bl.html but it has a CPU only used in 8.6 http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/specs/powermac_g3_450_bl.html

if the motherboard is from a g3 B&W 350 u have to install 8.5.1
that cd is available on macintosh garden. i have burned it when i was trying it on my g3.. but it wouldnt boot because, as u said, my cpu/motherboard was a 450, and its motherboard was blocked from installing 8.5.1 by apple (obviously for a specific reason) i dont think it matters most about the cpu but rather the motherboard.. hardware drivers for the devices in the motherboard.

I have the worst DA (466) http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_466.htmlwith the best QS cpu, the GHz dual http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1ghz_dp_qs.html, and this thing have a the original ATI Rage Pro 128 with the VGA and ADC port, but rare AGPx4 (I Think). This take Digi001 and AP2496. This thing was sold with 9.1, but the cpu was from the 9.2.2 age.
i havent seen that original disc posted anywhere... its missing aswell i think.. this "digital audio version of 9.1 with restore option"

Quote
I have the worst MDD (866 dual at 133 bus) with a GeForce 2 MX 64Mb .

It is complicated for me to choose the "optimal" os9 for them. I still have a bad OS in the MDD

i have the same exact machine. i got it for 30$ ;)
with the same video card too.. but that video card i flashed to a pc card:D
i might flash it back now tho.. if i still have the rom saved.

the mdd isnt too complicated to pick optimal os9 for at all...
but the mdd restore discs are posted on macintosh garden.. u can do ASR system restore from just the first disc i think
http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-922-1021-power-macintosh-g4-mirrored-drive-doors-mdd
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supernova777

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http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=357.msg643#msg643
remember this old 8.6 post (november last year .. time flies!)

Quote
the 24-bit software is only available for Macintosh at present, and use is really only recommended on a high-performance G3 Mac -- although Steinberg do not discount the use of non-G3 Macs, they do euphemistically state that Cubase VST/24 is 'optimised' for the G3 -- October 1998 SOS Article

good thing i just installed cubase 4.1 on my G3 B&W 450;) its a match made in heaven  :-* :-* :-*
i will take my own advice from last year + run Ableton Live 1.0 (as a remix/sampler) Reason 1.0 (mostly for drum machine + sampler)
these 3 apps are amazing together... cubase/live/reason.. rewire actually works well with these first versions.
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supernova777

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my sawtooth 9.0.2 restore + install  discs have arrived just now!  8) ;D  :D  ;)  :)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:40:13 AM by chrisNova777 »
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MacTron

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This are my test results:
Machine G4 AGP, Sawtooth, 7400@500 Single CPU, 5120 Mb of RAM, and a Ati Rage Pro.

A) Full installation of Mac Os 8.6 with ROM 2.5.1 "Sawtooth Machine specific"

Boot time: 52 sec.
Let1kWindowsBloom: 11.04 sec.
 
B) Full installation of Mac Os 9.2.2 with ROM 10.2.1 "MDD Machine specific"

Boot time: 53 sec.
Let1kWindowsBloom: 10.77 sec.

So it isn't worthwhile lost the few benefits of Mac Os 9.2.2 for gaining practically nothing.

A brief history: Mac Os 8.6 was really a very good System Software version. The Sawtooth version was the last one, and the most bug free and the one that have wider amount of hardware compatible, it is may be good for some low end G3 (but my last G3 "died" a few days ago, so I can't test it...).
This great System version was followed by slow and buggy 9.0.x. Most of those bugs were solved with Mac Os 9.1. But we have to wait up to 9.2.x to recover the speed of 8.6.

And I have explained in several occasions that "Machine Specific" versions of Mac OS, NOTHING HAS TO DO WITH  provide accelerated enhanced performance but Machine compatibility ...
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 11:13:54 AM by MacTron »
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supernova777

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unfortunately the most improvements are on things that cant be benchmarked.. like startup time..
responsiveness.. no waiting when opening new directories on the drive..  immediate shut down
the machine just overall works better with the specific version it came with..

im just trying out the 9.0.2 install on the sawtooth and shutdown + startup speed is incredibly faster
overall responsiveness .. im glad i bought these discs!

i will try to do the tests tho
once im done setting up my dual partitions for my sawtooth, 8.6 + 9.0.2
and getting a "starter" restore image for both

still with 9.0.2 my firewire drive does not mount.. it is a WD "passport" firewire 800 drive /w adapter

maybe it requires 9.1+ ?? it mounts on 9.22 just fine... it must be "hard disk drivers"
is there any tool i can use to try to update the hard disk drivers without having to copy all the data off the drive
and reformat?
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supernova777

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^^ the above firewire drive mounts fine with os updated to 9.1
firewire extensions are numbered v2.7

i cloned my 9.02 install so i will do some testing to see if i can get it to work by updating from 9.02 -> 9.04 aswell
or try to transplant the firewire extensions but the extensions themselves say mac os 9.1 on them..
maybe the extensions part of 9.04 will work too..i will test
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supernova777

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my g4 agp sawtooth since running its own machine specific installers (right now 9.0.2 install direct from restore cd) and having replaced the video card with its original ATI RAGE 128 pro (dvi+vga) is very much faster!! before i had the geforce 4mx installed which is technically a better card...i have no wayt o explain this other then to think that they tweaked the driver for performance... the speed increase is seen the most in browsing... i think the driver support is key .. i have no other way to explain how fast it is to scroll pages on the browser compared to before..... i keep forgetting that im even on the g4 450mhz!!!

before when i had the fresh drag install on this machine it was really really slow..
these mac os roms i think arent supposed to be changed...
i was reading about the mac os rom.. how it is really a file within a file.. and that it is a CHRP boot script that has the real rom file embedded in it.. that is why the mac cant startup without it..
before old macs used to have this embedded rom file on an actual chip on the motherboard.. but "new world rom" design changed this and now the rom resides on the harddrive.. but its the same thing essentially.. u wouldnt open up an old world rom computer and stick a different rom from a different computer in it ? would u? well thats essentially what u are doing by usng the mdd 10.2.1 rom on any older g4... its a part that doesnt go with that computer... apple never intended for this to happen and i think this is the reason for change in performance this one file alone possibly

'works' + 'works well' are two different things
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