Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[someperson]

I have a Beige G3 with a 1 GHz Sonnet Encore/ZIF and a genuine ATI Radeon 9250 for Mac. I am experiencing crashing in pretty much any 3D game on this system. It's very easy to reproduce by just running a 3D game and waiting a few minutes.

The only thing that seems to alleviate the crashing is disabling the "Sonnet Processor Upgrade" extension. Doing this makes the CPU dog slow, but it doesn't seem to crash.

I've tried several versions of the Sonnet Encore software package: 3.1, 2.3.1, and 2.0.3. I've also tried several different Mac OS versions: 9.2.2, 9.1, and 8.6. I've also tried removing the "Apple CPU Plugins" extension. I've even tried swapping the GPU with a flashed ATI Radeon 7000. The crashing occurs with all these configurations.

Does anyone have any suggestions for anything else I can try? Also, I wasn't sure where to put this, but I've attached a ROM dump of the ATI Radeon 9250 since it doesn't seem to be available online anywhere.

[joevt]

Maybe Power Logix CPU Director has more options you can try?

[joevt]

Also, I wasn't sure where to put this, but I've attached a ROM dump of the ATI Radeon 9250 since it doesn't seem to be available online anywhere.

I haven't seen that one before. It's similar to the 9200.

Code: [Select]

-------------
9200        1002:5961
name        ATY,BugsyParent
model       ATY,RV280
ATY,Card#   109-A27500-00
ATY,Rom#    113-A27502-105
            113-A27502-113
            113-A27502-120
            113-A27502-121
            113-A27502-124

-------------
9250        1002:5960
name        ATY,BugsyParent
model       ATY,RV280
ATY,Card#   109-A27500-00
ATY,Rom#    113-A27503-201


[GaryN]

My money's on overheating if only 3D stuff crashes. Do you do anything else on that machine? If you can run less demanding apps at length without issues, that would indicate the configuration and such is probably OK. So:

Did you (or a previous owner) swap out the fan for a quieter one?
Do you hear the main fan speed up before the crash?
Is the processor thermal paste/pad applied properly?

It can be difficult to get a temp reading in OS9. One thing that may (stress may) work is the G3-G4 Temperature Module in Jeremy's CSM Bundle at Macintosh Garden. It depends on which proc is in the Encore.
If that doesn't work, you may have to buy an infrared temperature gun/probe to make certain.

[someperson]

Maybe Power Logix CPU Director has more options you can try?

Interesting. I wasn't aware this would work with a non-PowerLogix CPU. The extension bombs in OS 8.6 (would it work in OS 9?), but the application correctly identifies the CPU and does give me some actual settings. I disabled the Sonnet extension and used this to enable all the options. In this configuration, the machine feels snappy and its score in MacBench looks good. I can also still reproduce the crashes, so I'll play around more with this and see if I can find a configuration that doesn't crash.

My money's on overheating if only 3D stuff crashes. Do you do anything else on that machine? If you can run less demanding apps at length without issues, that would indicate the configuration and such is probably OK. So:

Did you (or a previous owner) swap out the fan for a quieter one?
Do you hear the main fan speed up before the crash?
Is the processor thermal paste/pad applied properly?

It can be difficult to get a temp reading in OS9. One thing that may (stress may) work is the G3-G4 Temperature Module in Jeremy's CSM Bundle at Macintosh Garden. It depends on which proc is in the Encore.
If that doesn't work, you may have to buy an infrared temperature gun/probe to make certain.

Everything else I've tried on the machine seems to work fine. I'm even able to run tools like TechTool Pro and it passes every test I throw at it.

I have never touched the system fan (this is a Beige G3 Desktop by the way, so there's only one fan), and I have no idea if a previous owner messed with it. It does not speed up before the crash, and I forgot to mention that I already tried replacing the thermal paste with some fresh stuff, but it didn't help.

For Jeremy's CSM Bundle to try to read the temperature, it looks like I'll need to install OS 9 again (the machine currently has OS 8.6). I can try that this weekend if you think it's worthwhile. The CPU is a G4 7455 by the way.

[aBc]

"...by the way, so there's only one fan), and I have no idea if a previous owner messed with it."

Maybe not the exact same Sonnet ZIF - but weren't there two fans atop the thing too?

https://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/encore_zif_2g_qsg.pdf

[someperson]

"...by the way, so there's only one fan), and I have no idea if a previous owner messed with it."

Maybe not the exact same Sonnet ZIF - but weren't there two fans atop the thing too?

https://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/encore_zif_2g_qsg.pdf

The manual says to remove those if installing in a Beige G3 Desktop: https://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/pdf_onlinedocs/english/mac/encore_zif_2g_qsg.pdf

I might still have them somewhere, but if I recall correctly, the case can't close with them attached.

[aBc]

Well if that is indeed the case with the case… and it won’t close with fans in place - I’d be looking to additionally supplement the cooling airflow, somehow. AND especially if you’ve removed the top two heatsink fans and are attempting to run more demanding 3D media on a machine that was never intended to do so, per its original design.

To test this, you might even run the machine open - BUT with a larger fan blowing directly on the heatsink for a short test / time period.

Or as GaryN suggested, get an infrared temp gun and monitor the heat rise at the CPU heatsink as runtime passes. Maybe you’ll get some truly scary readings as the machine expectedly crashes - and that will definitely lead you quickly to supplemental cooling measures?

[GaryN]

The manual says to remove those if installing in a Beige G3 Desktop: https://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/pdf_onlinedocs/english/mac/encore_zif_2g_qsg.pdf

I might still have them somewhere, but if I recall correctly, the case can't close with them attached.

So, the engineers designed the upgrade with TWO fans because they knew the thing could and would get hot under heavy load. THEN, they discovered it wouldn't quite fit in the Desktop model. THEN, they had to decide whether to redesign the heatsink assembly (probably after they had already purchased a large order from whoever) OR toss the dice that only a very few users would push it hard enough to cause a problem AND they could deal with them as they called in.

THAT my friend, is a classic example of what is called "bean counting".

I'm now certain it's overheating. You're going to have to get creative with additional cooling somehow.

[DieHard]

I had the 800 in a G3 B&W and it was rock solid for more than 3 years.  I never owned the 1000. It was great for desktop publishing and DAW stuff, but never gamed with it.

I would jumper it down 100 or 200 MHz and see if it is more stable as a test.

[someperson]

To test this, you might even run the machine open - BUT with a larger fan blowing directly on the heatsink for a short test / time period.

I gave this a try today. I left the machine open and placed a loud 120mm fan on top of the CPU, running at full speed and blowing straight upward. The damn thing still crashed. To be honest, I'm not convinced it's a thermal issue for a few reasons:

• In that last test, the heatsink barely felt warm.
• With the system open and no active cooling on the CPU, the heatsink gets hot very fast, so I feel like the thermal interface is fine. It definitely does overheat in this state and the system crashes quickly without even needing to launch a game. I think it does better with the case closed because the PSU fan is basically right above the heatsink, and I'm guessing Sonnet thought this would be good enough to cool it.
• The game I've been testing with is Nanosaur, which doesn't exactly strike me as CPU-heavy. And all I've been doing is starting a game, going to the pause menu, and letting it sit there. Is this really going to rail the CPU?

I would jumper it down 100 or 200 MHz and see if it is more stable as a test.

It doesn't have any jumpers, so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to do that. It ignores the settings on the logic board entirely as far as I know.

[aBc]

You may have already answered this, but… have you renewed the heatsink’s thermal paste? (Ahh okay, you did.) Maybe try it again, unless you’re confident that it was done absolutely perfectly, without any doubt. Or, if you provide pics as mentioned here down below.

“With the system open and no active cooling on the CPU, the heatsink gets hot very fast, so I feel like the thermal interface is fine. It definitely does overheat in this state and the system crashes quickly without even needing to launch a game.” AND "…left the machine open and placed a loud 120mm fan on top of the CPU, running at full speed and blowing straight upward".

The idea of the supplemental fan was to blow down and or across the heatsink. If you had it positioned down on the heatsink and blowing UP-wards… well that’s entirely different and not like your original Sonnet configured, two-fan directional orientation either. I could be wrong in your case - but all fans here on CPU upgrades blow down or across the heatsinks.“

…blowing directly on the heatsink”

             

“I think it does better with the case closed because the PSU fan is basically right above the heatsink…”
Likely blowing down onto or across the heatsink, maybe?

As for jumpers, it might be helpful to have clear, top & bottom pics of the Sonnet. And if you do take these pics, a great time to check your thermal paste job for voids, etc. after also removing the heatsink for the pics.

AND I absolutely hate to recommend anyone spending any money in these situations, but there are fairly low-cost compact IR thermometers available. And in your case, when it crashes… you could open it up and quickly take the temp of the heatsink’s base, nearest the processor. Then, if it’s not terribly high, your assessment of it NOT being a thermal issue may be correct.

             

And if you are correct, might be time to take the machine all the way back to basics and clean reinstall all of your software and the CPU upgrade supporting rituals. And of course, blow out any accumulated dust, especially in areas that you might not be able to clearly view without further disassembly.

There’s a picture around here of someone’s Quicksilver with a great ball of unseen hair amassed behind the motherboard.

AND maybe (only just maybe) time to replace the single system fan too? (Before OS re-install.)

Sorry, no magic bullets here. But we do try.

Hope that you get it all figured out.
 

[indibil]

I'm going to make a suggestion based on recent experiences. I've encountered several G3/G4 Macs that were giving me problems with SSDs, others with CPU upgrades, and finally, it turned out that it was the PSU that was no longer able to maintain stable voltages. If it was pushed harder than "normal," then something was wrong. Just replace the PSU and the problems were gone.

I'm not saying it's the problem, but if you have a voltmeter, connect it to different voltages and perform the 3D load test.

[someperson]

The idea of the supplemental fan was to blow down and or across the heatsink. If you had it positioned down on the heatsink and blowing UP-wards… well that’s entirely different and not like your original Sonnet configured, two-fan directional orientation either. I could be wrong in your case - but all fans here on CPU upgrades blow down or across the heatsinks.“

…blowing directly on the heatsink”

Sorry, that was my bad. I retested this with the fan pointing the other way, and got the same result.

I'm going to make a suggestion based on recent experiences. I've encountered several G3/G4 Macs that were giving me problems with SSDs, others with CPU upgrades, and finally, it turned out that it was the PSU that was no longer able to maintain stable voltages. If it was pushed harder than "normal," then something was wrong. Just replace the PSU and the problems were gone.

I'm not saying it's the problem, but if you have a voltmeter, connect it to different voltages and perform the 3D load test.

Ugh, I was really hoping this would be a silver bullet. I pulled out a spare modern ATX PSU and hooked that up to the machine, and, unfortunately, it still crashes in 3D games. 

[aBc]

How new to you is this machine? As in… maybe you’ve acquired someone else’s problem child. And you’re possibly unaware of just how this current configuration pathway was undertaken / achieved?

Was really hoping that indibil’s PSU angle would solve this!

Still sounds like a thermal problem and possibly a (hate to even think this) a partially failed CPU. Why is the thing shutting down when you attempt 3D - but runs fine otherwise!

Pics of the top and bottom (looking for jumpers or dip switches) on the CPU itself, might help (per DieHard’s suggestion). And then there’s the possible “mis-match” or problems associated with the video card as you have already explored and limited tested. (Maybe an absolute bare bones and absolutely minimum featured card should be tried?)

And again… the temperature of the CPU / heatsink immediately after failure - to help determine just how hot it actually gets. If not really all that hot, then maybe software or overall configuration problem?

Without knowing the full history of the machine and complete current hardware configuration… well we’re all just guessing, at best.

Have you another G3 machine (maybe a Blue & White?) that you could test the Sonnet in?

Otherwise I am baffled - but still hold out hope for your eventual solution.

Might try this before all else… Hell, maybe all of the ZIF pins aren’t entirely making complete solid connections within the socket, or they’re partially oxidized or patinated? (It happens.) DeoxIT all the pins? Then remove and install, several times (in and out) the CPU in the socket and work the lever back and forth several times as well too. Then try, try again.

Best of luck and success to you.

[smilesdavis]

How new to you is this machine? As in… maybe you’ve acquired someone else’s problem child.

i totally had to fix the mainboard it ran on first before i could get my encore/st 1.8 going

[indibil]

I'm going to suggest several options for you to try.

Does it work fine with the original CPU and the Radeon 9250?
Does it work fine with the Sonnet CPU and another PCI graphics card?

As aBc suggested, replace the thermal paste on both devices. And there's another thing we neglect and have had to replace on occasion: the CPU or graphics card capacitors. Do they look good? Visual appearance isn't a guarantee of good condition; sometimes you have to remove them and measure them.

Sometimes capacitors deteriorate more from disuse than from continuous use.

I don't know if you've tried a clean, basic installation with just the bare minimum to get the Sonnet and 9250 working.

[smilesdavis]

Agreed

Reduce to bare minimum
works? -> add
Works not? -> fix bare minimum

[someperson]

I've done some more testing since my last post. I managed to dig out the CPU I originally received the machine with, a 450 MHz G3. Running in my Beige G3 slightly underclocked to 433 MHz (there's no way to achieve 450 MHz without overclocking the system bus), this is stable. I let it run a 3D game overnight with the 9250 installed, and it did not crash.

I've attached photos of the Sonnet upgrade with the heatsink removed. Notably, I just noticed that the CPU itself is marked as an 800 MHz part! I feel like this is probably the smoking gun I've been looking for, but that leaves me with a dilemma, because there's no obvious way to change the multiplier on this thing, and I am poorly skilled at soldering SMDs. Why in the world would Sonnet do this?!

*Somewhat smaller images also attached below. (i.e. the bottom two.) - aBc

[aBc]

Have you viewed this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZon3u91KBM

Specifically regarding possibly increased power demand, etc.?