Print

[ubergrafik]

Ok, I am still down the rabbit hole… and have a few more machines to choose from (yes, a good problem to have!)…
 
I am wanting to set the system up with a Creamware Pulsar 2 PCI sound card and am wanting to run Logic and maybe Cubase, but Logic is the preference as I have an original install and dongle;)
I would be maxing out RAM and using an SSD.
 
G4 AGP with Sonnet 1.8ghz upgrade  L1 not sure! L2 512KB L3 none
Transfer/swap with QS 733 (FSB 133 – 4x AGP – ATA/66) Min Ram speed 133mhz
 
or

G4 MDD single 1.25 – which I am planning on getting a quieter PSU for anyway as the old one died…
L1 64k  L2: 256k L3 1mb (FSB 167 – 4x AGP – ATA/100) Min Ram speed 333mhz
 
or

G4 MDD dual 1.25 – would swap out the PSU for the quiet one if I chose to use this one…
L1 64k  L2: 256k L3 2mb (FSB 167 – 4x AGP – ATA/100) Ram speed 333mhz
(is the L3 2MB for one or both CPU’s, e.g. 1+1?)
 
By the way, what does the Mim Ram speed actually mean? And, how does System bus relate to min ram speed – they seem to diverge in the MDD…
 
Which would be a better option? Seems to be splitting hairs a bit – the Sonnet is faster in clock speed, but the rest of the system is slower than the MDD…

Thanks

[thecookfamily]

So a machine with no L3 cache is usually a big no in my book however the speed of the Sonnet is remarkable. I currently upgraded to the Dual 1.25 for a stable machine. It has L3 cache of 1MB per CPU. The memory is 333 MHz or PC2700. You would benefit from the faster FSB of 167 MHz. As for the speed of the ram relation to the FSB, I am not entirely sure. I know I saw an explanation somewhere is these forums.

In addition, I use an IDE to SATA converter to run my SSD from. I average a transfer speed of 88 to 96 MB per second on the ATA/100 connection. You could get a SATA card but they are finicky and can be expensive.

[refinery]

Yeah the MDDs have DDR physical memory but it still only runs at SDR rate, matching the FSB. Some MDDs are 133mhz and some are 167mhz depending on how they shipped (or if somebody modded it after the fact)

[GaryN]

Having gone from a Sonnet in a G3 thru 3 MDD's to my current MDD with a 2x1.8Ghz Sonnet, I have learned a few things.

* Your 1.8Ghz Sonnet Encore can be installed in all G4's from AGP to QS. It purrs quite well in a late QS but it's somewhat wasted in an old AGP, where it works but it is hampered by the older, slower hardware around it.

* Your two MDD's are identical except for the CPU daughtercards which are interchangeable between them. The 167Mhz bus is the norm. The ONLY models that shipped with a 133 Mhz bus were the "low end" 867Mhz models the first year. The MDD's will deliver identical performance in OS9 using any of the DAW apps you're considering. There are only a handful of "late" OS9 app versions than can make some use of 2 CPU's none of which are music-related. There was a post with list of them… you can search for if you like.
So, unless you are considering dual-booting into OSX sometimes there is probably no good reason to even consider the 2x1.25 CPU. I would think of having a working MDD and a parts unit on the shelf because parts are NOT getting any easier to find - personally, I have enough to make probably 3 complete working units. That said, there's no special reason to not use the dual either… the second CPU will be just idling in OS9.

So it boils down to: Which is better in OS9: a slow AGP with a hot-rod CPU or the latest and fastest overall MDD with a slower but still blazing-fast-for-OS9 CPU?
I would choose the MDD simply because overall, the faster system bus, PCI, ADA etc will make it the faster, more efficient unit by far. Your AGP with a 1.8Ghz CPU is akin to an economy car with a V8 turbo stuffed into it. It's fast but stopping and turning……

Final note: There are OS9 purists that swear never an OSX app will ever desecrate their machines and there are those who see utility in having the ability to dip a toe into OSX occasionally to utilize something that simply never existed in OS9. I'm among the latter and I do use OSX sometimes. If you think you might, then the dual 1.25 is the logical choice.

[ubergrafik]

I also have a QS 733... so, thats what I was thinking, of putting the 1.8 sonnet in that vs one of the MDD's...

Thanks for the very thorough answers too by the way:)

[GaryN]

I also have a QS 733... so, thats what I was thinking, of putting the 1.8 sonnet in that vs one of the MDD's...

Thanks for the very thorough answers too by the way:)

And we have a winner!……… Probably.
A 1.8Ghz QS will be a great OS9 speedster. Do it.
It's always nice to have choices.

[ubergrafik]

Yes, I will go for that option:)

I have now run the sonnet install disk and the software recons it has been successful - but when I look at the Boot ROM Version, it comes up as 4.25. In the instructions pdf, it says it should be 4.28... So.... what should it be? (this is the stuff that makes me worry - and I haven't got to pulling chips yet - but thermal paste in on standby:) )

By the way, I have TWO QS's - one has a 733 and the other an 867... I assume the logic boards are the same? Will keep one as a spare, but if there is a better logic board for the upgrade, that is what I'd use, obviously:)

I also just did a complete reformat and reinstall and its still coming up as 4.25...

The Crescendo Sftware is the one that is in 'ce_install_v231.hqx' whcih expands to: "Crescendo/Enc Ins 2.3.1" There is also a .sit file there which appears to open the same installer file version etc...

So, I ran it again, and it still thinks things are well... "Your computer's firmware is already patched"...

When I booted, there now seems to be a "Crescendo G4" banner under the OS9 banner...

Thanks!

[aBc]

“I assume the logic boards are the same? “

Check both Quicksilvers for the following:
An 820-1342-B mobo, or an 820-1276-A?
(“B” boards are better.)

AND if your Quicksilver is reporting:
"Your computer's firmware is already patched"
I would not be concerned about firmware 4.2.8.

[ubergrafik]

Cheers:) Will have a look at the mobos.

So, 4.25 ok for 0s9?

[aBc]

Of the four Quicksilvers here…

867 MHz    (“A” mobo)  4.25f1
933 MHz    (“B” mobo)    4.33f2
1 GHz DP  (“B” mobo)    4.33f2
1.67 GHz   (“B” mobo)    4.33f2

*The 1.67 GHz has a Sonnet upgrade and didn’t have
its’ normal SSD installed - so a random 14 GB HDD
was used. Tiger 10.4.11 and OS 9.2.1 were present on
the same single partition on this HDD and the
machine would not boot completely into OS 9 before it
would just freeze. (Likely because all Quicksilvers
shipped originally with OS 9.2.2?)

But yes, 4.25f1 (on an “A” board) should be fine.
You might want to change to a “B” mobo later and
possibly go through the process all over again. 

[ubergrafik]

How do I identify which version board I have?

Interestingly, I have now tried the whole process on the QS 867 and had no success. It is still saying Boot ROM version 4.25...

For some reason, it keeps complaining that I need to Set the Startup Disk. I have one partition on the drive and have checked the Startup Disk control panel, and that's the disk listed in there...
It's a 123gb capacity drive...

So, at this point, am I better off just using the now flashed 733, that seems happy enough on version 4.25, and swap in the CPU?

[ubergrafik]

Ok, NOW it works - after much rebooting and reinstalling and faffing around:)

But, it is coming up as 4.25 as well!

So, I will just use the other one as it is physically in slightly better condition... What a journey! Am finding out more about os9 than I though I was going to at this point:)

[ubergrafik]

So, I swapped the processor in, booted up into os9, and it gets to ALMOST the end of booting, then stops and that's it...

Holding down shift while booting to turn off extensions doesn't help either...

[aBc]

Numero Uno:

You must have a completely bootable installation of
OS 9.2.2 present on your Quicksilver (whether it has
an A or a B board) and with either the 733… or the
867 MHz processor installed. Period. NOT OS 9.2
installed with OS X… on the same partition / aka:
“Classic” mode.

Now you’ve mentioned that you have one partition. Is
that one partition with both OS X and OS 9.2 2 on the
same partition? If so, then you may wish to reformat
that drive and make two partitions. The first partition
for your OS 9.2.2 clean installation and the second
partition for OS X. Install OS 9.2.2 first, ON that first
partition and check that it can and does boot OS 9.2.2
BEFORE even considering the Sonnet upgrade. Do
this with either processor in place but not with the
Sonnet just yet.

CAVEAT: Now if there is something already on your
current drive under OS X that you wish to save; you
might want to use a second (different) drive instead of
reformatting and erasing it. You can always add the
original drive back in as a “slave” afterwards, retaining
whatever it is that you’d like to save and still
accessible.


The primary goal here is to achieve a fully bootable,
independent version of OS 9.2.2 before ever
attempting the Sonnet installation. AND according to
Page 1 of the Sonnet Encore™ /ST G4 1.8 GHz Quick
Start Guide .pdf - you may also wish to install Mac OS
X 10.3.5 (or later) on the second partition AFTER
you’ve gotten OS 9.2.2 installed and fully bootable
with either the 733 or 867 MHz processor still present.

Note: Also on page 1 is the first mention of the 4.2.8
firmware for the: AGP Graphics, Gigabit Ethernet or
Digital Audio. There, it also notes: If your computer is
a Power Mac G4 (Quicksilver) model, skip to section
Thus, 4.2.8 is not necessary for the Quicksilvers.
AND it also notes that even the firmware updater
will not work in OS X Classic mode. (Yet another
basic reason for the two-partition approach.)


Page 2 of the Quick Start Guide should be your focus.
Keep in mind that there is a difference between the
Apple G4 Firmware Update (which is unnecessary for
the Quicksilvers) and the Sonnet Firmware Updater.
(Page 2 image attached below.)

Normally I am unconcerned about The Sonnet and OS
X - so I’ve always booted into OS 9 with the original
processor in place and then, run the Sonnet Firmware
Updater. See “D. MAC OS 9 USERS” (also on page 2)
and follow that process.


BUT before the above… locate the “Multiprocessing”
folder inside your OS 9 System folder > Extensions -
and drag it to the Extensions disabled folder. Also,
depending upon which video card you have
installed… you may also wish to disable the ATI
Graphics Accelerator and the ATI Video Accelerator
extensions too (if you’re using an ATI video card).

*I also initially disable these extensions too: Airport AP,
Airport AP Support, AIrport Driver and AMD as they
can initially “hang” the OS 9 boot. If OS 9.2.2 still
hangs at any point during the boot process, I’ll use
Command + Option + Q to quit whatever else might
be hanging. This will also ask if you want to quit
whatever extension might be causing the hang and
will also mention the extension’s name. (So you can
also disable that / them.)


AND to identify which version of the mobo you have…
next to the battery there is usually a white label affixed
to the board. Just to the left of that, there is white
silk screened text on the board which usually begins
with “APPLE COMPUTER INC.” Just under that will
be a seven digit number along with an A or a B and
“©2001”.

[ubergrafik]

Yes, its a single partition with OS 9.2.2 only (have other machines for osx, so keeping this OS9 only)

I did the exact steps as per the instructions. E.g. fresh install of OS 9.2.2, with original CPU, install sonnet software, do the firmware update, then swap in sonnet CPU...

The bit I didn't know about was the removal of multicpu extensions. I didn't do that bit...

I would have thought that booting with all extensions off would have at least got it to complete the boot process, but it sticks at 99%... I tried the Command + Option + Q but that didn't help.

I AM using an ATI card... its a Radeon 9000 with 64mb - would swapping to a different one make a difference?

I am not keen to swap CPUs around if I can avoid it - so would putting the SSD in another machine, moving/removing those extensions work?

[aBc]

It’s certainly worth a shot, placing the SSD in another
machine to trim down / move / disable some
extensions. And then place it back into the QS you’re
trying. I’d try that before swapping video cards.

You don’t have any extraneous expansion cards still in
the machine while attempting all of this? (i.e. SCSI
cards, added firewire or USB cards, etc.) Always strip
such stuff out - except for the bare minimum
(keyboard & mouse). No unnecessary externals either.

And no difference in just how far the boot actually got
with extensions off?

AND, before the Sonnet install… the machine booted
into OS 9.2.2 with no problems?

Here’s a random idea. If you can possibly get your OS
9.2.2 installer disc into the thing and boot into that (via
Option-key boot)… run Disk First Aid from that
installer disc to check the SSD? (Especially after
you’ve “adjusted” extensions.)

And now the dreaded question… the Sonnet itself was
known and tested “good” beforehand?

I’ll keep thinking about this and if “push comes to
shove” I may try the Sonnet here with an “A” board
tomorrow - just to check that that’s not a problem. (It
shouldn’t be.)

In the meantime, best of luck to you and hope that you
get it worked out.

[ubergrafik]

YES!!! That did it - no idea why disabling all extensions didn't work - but I did the ones you listed for ATI/Airport/Multiprocessor and it works now!

Thanks so much for your detailed posts and determination. One more happy OS9 user here:)

Oh, and swapped the OG D500 back into the Gigabit ethernet machine where the 1.8 came from and it never noticed...

Now the hard part - working out which ones to keep and which to let go of...

[aBc]

BIG Congrats on your success!
Now you might test re-enabling the ATI extensions?

“Now the hard part - working out which ones to keep
and which to let go of…”  - ubergrafik

Sorry, can’t help you with that, as it is much like
the “Hotel California” around here for Macs…

They can check out any time they like
- but they can never leave.

*And kudos to GaryN too…
 for steering you to the Quicksilver!

Enjoy.

[GaryN]

YES!!! That did it - no idea why disabling all extensions didn't work - but I did the ones you listed for ATI/Airport/Multiprocessor and it works now!

The culprit was the Multiprocessor Extension. Re-enable the ATI stuff if you have an ATI graphics card. If it's an NVIDIA GeForce, as was stock on most QS machines, enable the NVIDIA ones.

[ubergrafik]

Ok, so I have now reinstated everything and all good.

However, I have also been moving cards in and out etc. and everything seems to be getting unstable. So, I am wanting to do a fresh install. When I was installing logic and a few other things, it couldn't find things that had never been an issue when I was installing from my previous os9 install, so I chose to use the one I already had...

However, when I boot into it, it hangs before it fully loads... I tried the old routine of loading without extensions and also the Command + Option + Q, but that didn't work either...

My suspicions are that this is because of the sonnet 1.8, and the install disk is trying to load stuff the upgrade CPU doesn't like...

So, the question is - how does one reinstall the OS, without having to swap the CPU over. Am I totally missing something here?