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Author Topic: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives  (Read 17069 times)

Knezzen

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Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« on: March 17, 2024, 04:46:48 AM »

First steps are done, forum and files have been successfully moved.
The technical infrastructure has been set up, I'm sure you all noted the speedier operation of the forum. We're also mirroring all content, there isn't any danger of anything ever getting lost now.

So Mac OS 9 Lives is now on a solid ground for the years to come!

Thinking about the next changes.

Those of you who have been sticking around remember the days when the forum was much more active. You would log in every day in anticipation of finding some interesting new posts or developments.

Today, I'm witnessing that we're down to only a handful of posts and only a number of regulars.

One of the reasons I took responsibility of Mac OS 9 Lives was the wish to make those days coming back. To attract newbie members and see many return who had left. I'd love to make Mac OS Lives the go-to place for everything Mac OS 9 related on the web - with a focus on actually using Mac OS 9 productively and as a daily driver and not just talking about Mac OS 9. And I'd like to provide services and stuff to make that happen, because why shouldn't it ? Why should we have to rely on OS X or Windows? Mac OS 9 is more than capable.

Though, I feel we need to make some changes for this all to happen.


I'd really love to see the website extended. Remember the 2000's Mac websites with daily news and how-to tutorials? I'd really love to see a website that is a good bookmark to keep and visit after you've booted up your OS 9 machine. A page you can link to whenever somebody asks: "What is Mac OS 9 and why should one use it?".

Also potentially offer the website multilingual as in various languages if there's enough interest. (English language content being translated into French, Spanish, German etc.)

I feel we also need to make some changes to the forum itself. It was good when it was bustling with activity and rapidly growing. Today it feels like the kids have moved out and the parents stay back in a 200 square meter house all alone. We have a lot of forums and subforums with little activity. Might be time to look into some consolidation.

Fully aware here that not everybody will like all the changes. I'll always try to incorporate suggestions and ideas what everybody is making as long as I feel they are beneficial. But I'd also ask to accept that I can't simply make everybody happy.

What I'd like everyone to remember is that if we can pull this off, it'll be ultimately beneficial for all of us Mac OS 9 users - be it us musicians, creatives, gamers, tinkerers or whatever.

Stay tuned for more. And feel free to share your thoughts.
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2024, 10:32:38 AM »

I am addicted to the "Like" button. I really miss that functionality. I hope we can get back that within weeks.

The migration of ALL the files that DieHard hosted on Gmail should come after, in my opinion.

We should welcome even more the "virtualizers" and the QEMU community. QEMU ´plus PCI direct connection (or whatever it is called) is the only new "hardware" alternative.

I am now inmerse in the renovation of my DAW rooms and my goal is to use ProTools 5.1.3 TDM and my MIX as main multitrack/SSL/lexicon instead of PT 10.

I have little to none time to make a Instagram and TikTok account to promote the forum, I wish youngers could help.

Anyway most youtubers use our install images but give credit to the garden instead.  :P

What I think is more needed is to make some great post with pictures about chassis expansions to help users grab them piece by piece. I think we have more than 20 chassis owners on the forum. If they post some pictures we can still help the Pro that still wishes to use Mac OS 9 as platform.

We have no info about the Unreal Tournament, please share.
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2024, 10:57:41 AM »

Dont get me wrong. I am really happy with the migration and the loading times.

About consolidation of posts, I tried to do my best, but the Mac Mini stuff got no moderation done by me because I really cant help there.

The brute google skills of some searchers is needed to revamp old posts that CAN be updated.

Can we rebuild some pages to be "modern" on new browsers and still mantain compatibility with Classilla/ Internet Explorer? Macos9lives.com could benefit of a revamp.

I am sure a lot of 2014 users are still around and dont know you are now the CEO. DevilsAdvisor comes to mind, among others.

I wish vintage gamers could come to the garden for the games but get hooked here for the chat/review/tips. We can make room for them.

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Knezzen

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2024, 10:59:45 AM »

I am addicted to the "Like" button. I really miss that functionality. I hope we can get back that within weeks.

The migration of ALL the files that DieHard hosted on Gmail should come after, in my opinion.

I hear you. I just think that migrating the downloads and getting them hosted on something other than Google Drive has a higher priority than the like button, that's just my two cents.

We have no info about the Unreal Tournament, please share.

That was just a nonsense post in the Simplemachines calendar. I was just testing functionality and forgot to remove that post. Thanks for pointing it out.

I agree on that we need to reach out to more people and market "our" Mac OS 9 Lives "distribution" of Mac OS 9. I just think it's best done by presenting it through a nice website that is both informative and sparks curiosity to it's reader.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
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Bolkonskij

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2024, 11:18:50 AM »

I like the idea about gamers. As a dad, my play time is limited these days. Though it's fun to watch my kids to learn 'computing' - on Mac OS 9 of course - and see them play some of the games I used to. Mac OS 9 has some great games and as long as this games part wouldn't overtake the rest of page, I'd like the addition.

That said, maybe some info on how to use Mac OS 9 as an educational-at-home OS? I find it perfectly suited for kids to take their first steps and to be creative in a save environment.

OS 9 daily driver content:
Really like the emphasis on "how to use OS 9 as a daily driver". This is something I very much enjoy on my machines, finding workarounds and solutions to usually artificially imposed problems. I know there's people out there like me who will only use modern gear if it's absolutely necessary (Online Banking comes to mind) but otherwise find that their Mac OS 9 machines do whatever they're looking for, often even better.

Commercialization:
I do hope this page stays uncommercial as DieHard had it running, e.g. no banner ads and tracking. Donations are OK, if freely and to keep things running. Banner ads would make me leave.

Social Media:
Not sure if OS 9 Lives needs to go (and drown) in the huge sea of TikTok and Insta. What would one be looking for there? It'd be a lot of time and energy and without an ad budget it'd likely not be of much use. Instead I'd love to see this place to develope into a refuge for those of us looking for alternatives to the (anti) social media? We need less Social Media and more personal websites and services, much in the way the WWW was originally intended to become.

I think is more well spent going into alternative networks like Gemini, Mastodon, Gopher etc. and finding people that are interested in something like Mac OS 9 than explaining to someone on Insta that his shiny new iPhone is overpriced corporationware.

Please don't add Like buttons. This is a Bulletin Board, not Facebook. If we like something, we can articulate that, can't we? This used to work for decades until Zuckerberg came around ...


What I'd really like to see is getting some content here spotlighted. Every now and then I run into a series of posts with such details and knowledge that makes me think "wow, this should be in some kind of FAQ" (or something) where it is readily found rather than by accident in the forum. Maybe a knowledge base of some sort?
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ssp3

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2024, 11:26:03 AM »

And feel free to share your thoughts.

Sigh.. I have a lot to say, but I'm not sure I want to spend time putting it all down. It could be a very long post or series of posts.

First, fix the navigation. I find myself checking the forum less than before.

Each time I have to go to 'home', scroll down the page, read the topic names in small font and check the poster's name and date to see whether I have already read it or not. That's like navigating Windows. eek.

More later.
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Knezzen

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2024, 11:29:03 AM »

First, fix the navigation. I find myself checking the forum less than before.

You're referring to the bottom navigation that was disabled before the transfer of the forum? Other than reinstating for the time being missing functions, you're not missing anything in terms of content or have any thoughts on the future? Everything is good as it is if we just enable the old functions again?
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Knezzen

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2024, 12:57:17 PM »

I added the feature with less "bling" to the bottom of every topic page, ssp3.
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refinery

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2024, 03:03:51 PM »

I mostly stopped coming here because of specific posters. There's one in particular but they're not the only one that can get antagonistic. It's tiring and puts people off from participating.
I also got tired of seeing the same posts come up over and over again. "How do I make my 25 year old Mac work with my 57:14 5000hz megaultrasync monitor".
Perhaps an updated FAQ section dealing with common topics like that and file sharing might be useful.

Got tired of waiting for SataMan's mythical bootable SATA-2 driver.
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ssp3

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2024, 04:13:32 PM »

I added the feature with less "bling" to the bottom of every topic page, ssp3.

Thanks, this looks much better. I hope it's not because of me but for the good of forum.  :)
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smilesdavis

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2024, 04:39:36 PM »

sort by interestes. games / daws&plugs / hardware / OS / rest

engange the audience in participating

punish old grumpy people (the usual suspects) with temp bans so posters are not being intimidated by angry old posters enganging in territorial pissings
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ssp3

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2024, 04:40:45 PM »

I mostly stopped coming here because of specific posters. There's one in particular but they're not the only one that can get antagonistic. It's tiring and puts people off from participating.

THIS!

------
There are some that, despite them using foul language and for reasons that I can not understand, are given way too much leeway.
I haven't stopped coming here (yet), but, following one specific incident, I decided to stop posting exclusive content in one particular forum area. Why spend hours staring at display if the stuff you provide can end up in the hands of a-holes. Especially if what you do is not for yourself, but for the benefit of others.

If you want to reboot the forum, I think, it would be good to use heavier form of moderation, especially in its initial stage. A bit of discipline doesn't hurt. I, for one, would love to see the introduction of warning system (bad manners, useless posts, long quotes, posting misleading information), sin-bin, ban and first time poster restrictions/conditions.
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FdB

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2024, 05:01:46 PM »

Well…

Quite happy that the Forum and files have made the transition. Well done. Kudos. Allow me to hit that Like button!

But here we go:

1. “remember the days when the forum was much more active”

I still visit the Forum 2 to 3 times a day (if not more) but I don’t always log in. Such visits may not all be counted - just as many may also visit just for a quick reference and they may not be actual members either. And “traffic” can often be a seasonal thing as well, much like ebb and flow of the tides. This time of year (when the weather improves) I’m outdoors tending to other matters… just as many others do. But yes, it does often seem rather quiet at times. And perhaps just like the weather, that also changes.

2. “One of the reasons I took responsibility of Mac OS 9 Lives was the wish to make those days coming back.”

It’s rather doubtful that we’ll ever beat the record of 1307 Most-Online-Ever number from January 14, 2020 (pandemic days) but today’s number is 271. Compare that to the System 7 Today forum’s number of 14 for today and it’s easy to determine that the traffic is still here. May not be all bona fide members but the Forum still serves rather well as an on-going reference and source for some downloadable files (even sans membership). Still, there are those of us that often refer others (on and from other forums*) to this one. Spreading that gospel, baby! (*MacRumors, 68kMLA, TinkerDifferent, etc.) This IS the go-to site for OS 9. AND considering Apple’s most recent machine/OS offerings, perhaps we shall again see a resurgence in these older, dependable machines running OS 9?

I’d venture to say that for the most part, people visit here, get what they need and then they’re gone. Except for maybe what DieHard often referred to as the Core Users / Group.

3. "What is Mac OS 9 and why should one use it”?

This seems rather evident in the sense that nearly all new visitors are brought to the Forum via some search engine result, pertaining to some specific aspect of OS 9. AND quite honestly, I’m often quite pleased when it points to some old post of mine here, or even from some other member. There is GOLD here. (Some times silver or maybe even bronze… if it’s mine, maybe.)  ;)

4. Ch-ch-changes and consolidation?

I am old and quite grouchy… and honestly quite often resistant to change. Especially if it becomes a matter of change, primarily for the sake OF change. Sure, some things can be merged - BUT the WIDE array of different sections should stay fairly much the same.

In the beginning, this was primarily a DAW reference site and there was much discussion as to whether or not other OS 9 related “things” should even be allowed. Hell, there was a time (for quite a long time) when the mere mention of OS X would result in much hand-ringing, teeth-gnashing and a very loud outcry. Happily, that changed as it became apparent that OS X could serve as an important adjunct and compliment to OS 9. (i.e. multi-drive, multi-boot, multi-partitioned drives especially when it comes to functional problems associated with OS 9 working partitions / drives.)

But yes, the general look and feel of the Forum can be considered as rather haphazard to the novice. That’s where that little search feature at the top comes into play. Chances are that the information sought, IS here. One need only search for it. And that effort nearly always pays off. All too often it seems, that we field questions of the most simple in nature. Because someone wants their answer served up on a silver platter immediately… even well before the question has been examined closely enough by the user. And then there are those that need help above and beyond what is readily available here. In many of those instances, some Forum members have sent HDs, SSDs and even installation discs to the far reaches of the globe (often at no charge or for shipping costs alone). That’s who some of us are - and what some of us do.

So, change things? Maybe incrementally. But please, don’t change the overall look and feel of this site. I do like System 7 Today forum’s overall look… but not for MacOS9Lives.

5. The “Like” button.

No this isn’t Facebook (and I detest Facebook and Zuckerberg). And honestly I didn’t like the “Like” button to begin with. However, it did become a way to easily acknowledge a good/great/grand post, especially made by newbies - or those that had just begun contributing to the Forum (without more keystrokes) quite simply for encouragement. Mind you, also good for old dogs’ contributions, when warranted. SO yes, I’d like to see it return just like Protools5LEGuy… instead of taking the time to type out accolades and post them. For me, maybe the addition of a “dislike” option too would be good. (I’m joking.) But yes, by all means complete the migration of the downloads.

6. Games / Gamer Section addition


WTH. Why not? So many of our recent new members originated during the pandemic when many Macs were recovered from storage and resurrected to primarily play games. However, perhaps members should somehow declare that this is their primary interest / focus? That, to keep me and others from delving too deep into certain specifics when wholly unnecessary. SO yes, a certain section for gamers and gamer related questions makes utter and complete sense.

7. OS 9 and active Forum E-van-gel-ism

Some of us do this regularly. Spreading the “gospel”. (Over on MacRumors, 68kMLA, TinkerDifferent, etc.) I often see references to something posted here, on other forums. And often with the mention that they’ve forgotten exactly where or providing any link. And then there are the complaints that they cannot see the images posted here without first registering as a member. (Which is sort of BS, as they had to register on those other forums too, in order to view full images there.)

8. “Bulletin Board” …what?

Nahh. I tend to think of this more as a Worldwide User Group (or WUG* as opposed to a MUG). Don’t make me go all the way back to the BBS mindset. *Or just for fun… a “FUG” (Forum User Group).  :)


9.Also, see #10 below

I’m afraid that we may be heading more like what S7T’s opening page looks like?



Which is fine for System 7 Today… nice and clean. Simple, uncluttered.
But sadly I can’t quite see MacOS9Lives compressed down into that format.

Check these numbers:



Again, I’m only guessing here… but compressing MacOS9Lives down into that S7T format?
I shudder at the thought. Tell me that I’m concerned over nothing, please.


UND furthermore,

10. From an earlier, unposted post:

I for one don't miss any of the forum plugins, but then it's probably a routine thing. If you've used the stuff for, say, two years on a daily basis, you'd sure miss the feature. I think Knez will look into what's possible and offer up solutions. I haven't known him to be a only-my-way-is-the-right-way type of person, so come time, come (optional, maybe?) features!

There's certainly the possibility to write a more efficient theme for the forum to accommodate for even older / slower machines / people with shitty internet connections. I've done that for the System 7 Today forum, which also runs on SMF. Could be an optional theme for Mac OS 9 Lives too, if there's interest?
Yes! Let's discuss this


“More efficient / optional theme”?
“If you've used the stuff for (plugins) say, two years on a daily basis, you'd sure miss the feature(s).”

I’ve only been around here since 2016… as FdB, then FBz and most recently as aBc. I change once I reach 666 posts (because I’m Satan). Not really. I do this so that newbies won’t be put off by some noted large number of posts and thereby possibly leading them to thinking I’m some expert or know-it-all. (When I am not.) ::)

Undoubtedly some changes were likely inevitable with the hand off. And I most certainly do miss some of the plugins. (Still hoping for the return of some of them.) But… a more efficient and perhaps optional theme? Is this a reference to a format or layout “appearance” change to something more like that of System 7 Today’s?

Please, no.

This Forum is a veritable, on-going and massive archive... quite unlike any other site in existence today.

And yes, that new “bottom feature” is nice.

P.S. I’m still working on the copper heatsinks for the Mac Mini AND an ATX PSU conversion guide for the Quicksilver and other G4s. But now, daylight’s burning and I have a huge list of outdoor duties - waiting while I stole time to write all of this drivel. And I’m certain there will be more (drivel). There's never anything to do. :(

And now, after reading some of the posts above this (while I typed this)...
Let the wild rumpus begin!!! :P
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d97

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2024, 06:14:47 PM »

I don't post a lot but I really value this website and community.

I used the resources on the site heavily - specifically the Midi and Digital Audio resources - at the beginning of my return to OS9.  Now that I'm comfortable with my setup and have the software that I need, I drop by infrequently - usually without logging in - to see if there are any interesting threads.  I wonder if this is the sort of relationship to the site that other people have, too ... the site helps them get started and, when they are successfully re-immersed, tend not to need it as much.

Occasionally, if I need a specific resource and don't want to dig around in my file collection looking for it, I will pop back and grab the file here.

Now that we are a few hardware iterations away from PPC OSX, I tend to "see it" in the same sort of light as OS9 (as a historical OS) and feel that software from that period needs to be preserved and made available too.  There was some interesting music stuff from that era that, as far as I know, didn't make it to Intel.

D.
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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2024, 10:57:13 PM »

Thank you for restoring the bottom-of-thread-page activity section :)
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Knezzen

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2024, 01:34:37 AM »

Again, I’m only guessing here… but compressing MacOS9Lives down into that S7T format?
I shudder at the thought. Tell me that I’m concerned over nothing, please.
Yes you are. I don't understand why you're even jumping to this conclusion in the first place to be honest.

IF anything will change in terms of forum look and feel it will indeed be optional. The issue with the old System 7 Today forum was that the old forum was based on a piece of software called phpBB2 which was "End Of Life" in 2009. Ridden with security holes and very unsafe in general. What we did was migrate the phpBB2 forum to SimpleMachines (which is what we're running here) to get something secure and something that rendered nicely on older machines and Bolkonskij made a replica of the old phpBB2 theme with some modifications for it. If anything it was even more compressed before. We didn't change the look and feel or the layout of the site in any way, we stuck to the original design (which was based on the Apple website anno 1998).

Just have a look yourself if you don't believe me.
http://web.archive.org/web/20100327211549/http://forums.system7today.com/

And the statistics can be read in many ways. I see them as statistics for a time that has passed. Bots trawling the site are behind the majority of the views and based on posts per day System 7 Today is more active than Mac OS 9 Lives nowadays.

I mostly stopped coming here because of specific posters. There's one in particular but they're not the only one that can get antagonistic. It's tiring and puts people off from participating.

Couldn't agree more. We somehow need to lighten up the mood and try to be humble about peoples differences in perspective. Try to be more kind to one another.

Thanks for all the input so far!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 05:37:03 AM by Knezzen »
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ssp3

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2024, 12:00:00 PM »

Try to be more kind to one another.

This will not get you very far, I'm afraid.

You have to set a clear set of rules, follow and enforce them!

Here's the post by user TenorClefCyclist on reddit, who gives very good example on what happens.
* Emphasis mine.
** I joined Pro Audio Mailing List in 1997
*** I tried to dig out that list's rules, but can't locate them.

Quote
Public forums pretty much always turn to cr@p. It happened to USENET's rec.audio.pro once everyone and their grandmother got web access. Gabe Weiner (RIP) started the Pro Audio Mailing List in response. It was by invitation only -- you had to introduce yourself to Gabe by email. In its heyday, it had lots of industry luminaries: including mastering engineer Bob Katz, Motown engineer Bob Olhssohn, gear designers Daniel Weiss and Eelco Grimm, converter chip designer Max Hauser, and mic modder Scott Dorsey.

There have been pro forums on various platforms in the interim, most of which fell into disuse as the platform itself did. I recall a recording engineer's forum on AOL hosted by Glenn Meadows. Prosoundweb.com still hosts discussion groups run by Klauss Heine and Bruno Putzys, but they are very low traffic now. Sometimes a year goes by before I remember to look at them.

That illustrates the basic problem:
The "network effect" dictates that you need a critical mass of the right members for a forum to be useful.
If you have too few, nobody shows up regularly and questions go unanswered for weeks.
OTOH, more growth means an influx of basically clueless people.
First, they ask tons of elementary and repetitive questions, answerable by reading the FAQ, the first chapter of any audio engineering text, or a two-minute web search.
Then they start answering questions, often wrongly, and arguing when the pros correct them. It's Dunning-Kruger Effect writ large!
Ultimately, the pros get driven away and the forum's signal-to-noise ratio falls into the toilet.

That's pretty much what happened to Gearspace.com . I still try to help people there, but I'm frequently shouted down by folks who think a Schoeps CMC64 is useless because all you need is a SM57. I wish I had a dime for every time I've been lectured about the Nyquist theorem by someone who "learned it" from their buddy in a bar!
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IIO

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2024, 12:38:02 PM »

I mostly stopped coming here because of specific posters.
Quote
"How do I make my 25 year old Mac work with my 57:14 5000hz megaultrasync monitor".
Perhaps an updated FAQ section dealing with common topics like that and file sharing might be useful.

we are aware of all of this and many here will share your opinion.

it is just that nothing of these things can be done without quite some work, and every change you can imagine in these fields will also have negative side effects.

for example people asking for "rules". :)
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GaryN

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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2024, 02:10:29 PM »

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Re: Thoughts on the future of Mac OS 9 Lives
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2024, 02:39:52 PM »

for example people asking for "rules". :)

:)
https://ethics.org.au/ethics-explainer-deontology/

Quote
Deontology is an ethical theory that says actions are good or bad according to a clear set of rules.

Its name comes from the Greek word deon, meaning duty. Actions that align with these rules are ethical, while actions that don’t aren’t. This ethical theory is most closely associated with German philosopher, Immanuel Kant.
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