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[FBz]

“hm. why does it let you format the disk with 1 TB when it only "supports" 05?
what happens if you make only one partition of 1 TB?”  -IIO

Recent testing (and excessive rigorous hair-pulling) with larger drives
in the B&W, AGP & Digital Audio machines - may finally lead back to
these questions… UND possible answers.

Consider this a placeholder for now?



“chainsaw massacre part XIV” (Indeed.)

[IIO]

most of my rhetoric questions are placeholders.

and i had to postpone the answer to the "16TB question" (and the website as well), sorry. but it is not forgotten, just delayed.

one day we will create a mini boot DVD with 3 partitions with 10.4, 10.5 and OS9 as the most simple starting point for everyone. or better yet, a white case incl- content and everything preinstalled.

[FBz]

BOLO
Be On the LookOut for…
the AS331 V1.5 / SATA2IDE44VAO SSD adapters.



First mentioned and tested - back in May of 2021.
It now seems that the original supplier (and others)
no longer have these V1.5’s available.

And they work so very well in the G4 Mac mini!

Instead, all NOW found are of the V1.3 variety. And those
(while they may also work) are just a bit “flaky” in the mini.
[Maybe not only running OS 9 - but dual boot w/ OS X?]

The in-line configurations pictured above are the best.
And while the MCA004 V1.3’s have that same in-line
configuration, they’re also V1.3. (Work /but  problems).
[And the IDE44-SATA22F doesn’t fit inside the mini.]

Hope to test the “new” AS331 V1.3 but think their
performance (and V1.3 version number) may not
equal that of the original V1.5’s.

So, if anyone stumbles upon the original ones V1.5
do please let me know so I can order TEN of them.

Thanks!

[indibil]

Hello, i have installed this in my Mac Mini G4 with a 128GB mSATA SAMSUNG inside, and with two partitions: Mac OS 9.2.2 and Mac OS X 10.4.11 :
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/32831970452.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef194dBExecP&gatewayAdapt=glo2esp

Works great!

[smilesdavis]

link 404

[indibil]

link 404

solved, sorry:
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/32831970452.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef194dBExecP&gatewayAdapt=glo2esp

[ssp3]

First mentioned and tested - back in May of 2021.
It now seems that the original supplier (and others)
no longer have these V1.5’s available.
----
Hope to test the “new” AS331 V1.3 but think their
performance (and V1.3 version number) may not
equal that of the original V1.5’s.

So, if anyone stumbles upon the original ones V1.5
do please let me know so I can order TEN of them.

FBz, I've been testing various green chinese JM20330 adapters lately and this is what I was able to find out so far.

JM20330 does not have an option to upload firmware. Something that could be called "firmware" is placed on the chip during manufacture by the way of masks. There might have been several revisions to those masks, but only jMicron knows that. So, basically, it is just a "translator" chip betweed ATA and SATA with "hardcoded" set of functions.

Which brings us to your 1.3 vs. 1.5 issue..

If the PCBs look identical and assuming that the later revisions of the JM20330 chip are not worse than the earlier ones, the problem might lie somewhere else.

1.3 or 1.5 on the PCB might be just a silkscreening, indicating what set of (borrowed) production files that particular manufacturer of boards has. There might be some changes how the traces are laid out, but there's also a good chance that no changes were made. You should inspect closely both versions and check whether there are any differences.
(Btw, do you have a hi-rez pictures of both boards? I could have a look. I ordered a batch of 1.3 boards from China, but they are still in transit).

Then there's this one interesting blog entry
https://hackaday.io/project/186809-m2-sata-to-44p-ide-adapter/log/209761-jm20330-reverse-engineering
where the author talks about chinese "Bribge" adapter and how it deviates from jMicron's "reference design".

From what he writes and from what I have seen myself, it appears that producers of all sorts of JM20330 adapters try to save every penny that they can.
It very well might be that sequencing between 1.8V and 3.3V at start-up gets wrong because someone put too small resistor or capacitor at PORn pin 17. 1uF ceramic cap is not exactly cheap from mass manufacturer perspective compared to 0.1uF. There might be wrong value capacitor somewhere else too, visually they all look the same. Or regulators from the bad batch or from manufacturer's rejects bin. Who knows..
From the datasheet:

The JM20330 is a UMC 0.18 process chip solution. Which need 2 power supply e.g. 1.8 v and 3.3 v. When power on, keep 1.8v leading 3.3v. If it can not be achieved, the 3.3v and 1.8v should come at the same time.
.... the PORn signal in pin 17 shall be still low( asserted ) till 1 ms second after both 1.8 v and 3.3 v power supply are stable

So, in summary, I would go as follows:
1. Check PCB layouts. If they match,
2. Check type of voltage regulators.
3. Check resistor values, i.e. what's printed on them - 102; 103; 0 etc.
4. If you have LCR meter, check capacitor values where possible.
5. Check if capacitors differ visually in size. That might indicate different capacitances.
Then there's special case with 12K resistor, marked "123", which, as per datasheet, should be 1% tolerance. Who knows what they used.

[zefrenchtoon]

Hi
My simple contribution …

Using this mSATA adapter in my mini;
https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B01GRMUQRG

[ssp3]

Everyone is using these "green PCB" adapters, that's nothing new, BUT(!) this design is not ideal from EE perspective and has one pitfall. I'll probably make a separate thread about it.

[IIO]

we call them "white case" and they are a "just works" solution.

most people use the m2 version, but if you choose the mSATA version, which also exists, the SSD you are going to buy will be more future ready.

[ssp3]

most people use the m2 version..

I thought, it was the other way round - i.e. most people used mSATA versions. Also, how can mSATA be "more future ready"? 

[FBz]

[IIO]

okay, so it is either the other way round or there is no difference.

three theories is one too much, so i guess i m going to pull mine.

[DieHard]

ssp3, after reading that link, it's amazing these "Bribge" adapters are working at all... FBz and I still have over 100+ of these in stock that we bought for the site and have been sending them to members over the last 3 years, I am not sure if this is muddying up the mini thread, but I guess it's all related:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5967.0,html

Unfortunately, we never had the time to do as extensive testing in MDD and QS as we did with the DA (digital Audio)
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6233.0.html

[FBz]

Recent testing here (again!) of the V1.3 vs. the V1.5 44-pin JMicron-based adapters in G4 Mac minis provided some interesting results. The V1.3 adapters (MCA004) are still undependable in cold boot situations and quite often require the use of an installer (or boot disc) CD of some sort in order to mount and select any OS from a cold start using the boot picker. Again, it is as if there is a voltage requirement not being met… as after they have finally been successfully booted (warmed up?) - reboots and subsequent boots afterwards (within a certain amount of time)… they seem fine. [RE: DieHard’s hair dryer approach.] 

This may be different in laptops - but it’s the same for every G4 Mac mini / ranging from the 1.25 GHz through to and including the 1.5 Ghz.
(Seems that their erratic boot behavior was similar in the Lombard here.)

Again, I suspect the different voltage regulators used on the V1.3 and will eventually swap them out with the V1.5's AMS regulators.
(I have the 3.3 - but await the 1.8.)

   

As for the “different” PCB layouts (anyone can play) try to spot any differences:
(Warning: fairly large images that are “clickable” for larger view.)

   


Same order as above, MCA004 on top & the AS331 on the bottom. The “other sides”.
*There’s that resistor labeled “123” that ssp3 mentioned. (Again, image clickable.)

   
 

The funny thing is that… once you get a mini to boot from the V1.3 - it does perform / benchmark just slightly better than the V1.5.
BUT even if it does become more stable and less problematic in the Mac minis, I won’t make a habit of changing voltage regulators.
(If that works.) Especially now that mSATA and the “white case” adapters have come down in price. (Thanks IIO & zefrenchtoon!)

   

Definitely much more to follow concerning the “white case” mSATA variants in the G4 mini(s).

   
                                                     Overall averaged score numbers (not MB per/sec) from QuickBench 2.0.

[DieHard]

FBz,
I know you covered this, but...
I am starting to think the Ableconn is definitely the best choice with all the extra variables involved with the cheap adapters.
Yes, expensive now @$39, but that's only a net increase of about $25 from buying the cheap ones and they are built so much better and have way better heat dissipation. Also faster

I bought one in 2020 $31.99, then went to $42... now $39

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017VQT5YW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

    Dimensions 3.9 x 2.8 x 0.4 inches / 100 x 70 x 10 mm
    Weight 1.9 ounces / 54 g
    Capacity Up to 150 MB/s
    Input mSATA (52-pin, Mini SATA) Receptale
    Output IDE (44-pin, PATA) Male
    Chipset Marvell 88SA8052
    Compatibility OS independent; No driver installation required
    Supported System Windows, Macs, and Linux
    Certification CE, FCC, RoHS

Feature Bullets
    Convert a full size mSATA SSD into a standard 9.5mm high 44-pin 2.5" IDE SSD drive.
    Open frame aluminum housing dessign provides excellent heat dissipation for mSATA SSD
    Compatible with most mSATA solid state drives such as the SAMSUNG 840/850 EVO
    OS independent; No driver installation required. Native support in Windows, Mac and Linux.
    Fully RoHS compliant. High quality product. Made in Taiwan.

    Convert Full Size mSATA SSD to High Performance, No Noise, Low Power 44Pin 2.5" IDE SSD
    Supports SATA I, SATA II and SATA III (6Gbps) mSATA SSD
    Latch type mSATA connector on board, no need the screw to retain mSATA SSD
    100% Compatible with 2.5" IDE drive mechanical spec
    48 bits LBA can Break Capacity-Limit to Support mSATA SSD max 144, 115, 188GB
    Compliant with Serial ATA 2.6
    Jumper setting support IDE Master, Slave and Cable Select Modes
    Tag Command Queuing (Max 32 entries)
    ATA/ATAPI PIO mode data transfer
    ATA/ATAPI UDMA data transfer rate of 150, 133, 100, 66, 44, 33, 25, 16.7 MB/s
    ATA/ATAPI-7 Streaming feature set
    Includes 9.5mm height 2.5 " drive metal frame with 8 mounting holes and 4 HDD screws
    Dimension of PCBA with 2.5" frame : 98mm x 69.85mm x 9.5mm


Package Contents
    Ableconn IIDE-MSAT mSATA SSD to 2.5in SATA Drive Converter
    Mounting screw set (4x drive mount screws)

[FBz]

Yeah DH. I bought my AbleConn sled back in 2018 and put a Zheino 128 GB mSATA on it at the time… and I’ve yet to get back to testing it with a newer DogFish mSATA to see if I can get its’ performance up to your current levels. (That testing is on the list for this week!) Back in 2018, the Ableconn and the Zheino together, cost just under / or just above $100.00.

Me (being “thrifty”) I’m always seeking lower cost alternatives and I will also be checking internal & external operating temps of the various approaches for the mini. There’s never anything to do here.

To me, that was the allure of the AS331 v1.5 bridge adapters… as they took up less internal space, they were super low cost and operated cool - und allowed (in my mind at least) more internal air circulation and cooling. And now, before I have re-tested the AbleConn (with the new Dogfish mSATA) I’m leaning more towards the half-height mSATA “white case” in nekkid mode. Cheap! Inexpensive.

YET… it remains to be seen if I can get close to your most recent QB 2.0 results with it in a 1.42 GHz or 1.5 GHz Mac mini.

Vee shall see vhat the AbleConn + DogFish does this week.

*What’s the exhaust and bottom temps of your 1.42 GHz mini (with Ableconn) after 15 minutes run time? AND which mSATA rides yo sled?

Still awaiting M.2 SSD performance reports from anyone running that setup in a G4 Mac mini.

[BTW… hope all goes well with the weather “out there”.]

[ssp3]

The V1.3 adapters (MCA004) are still undependable in cold boot situations and quite often require the use of an installer (or boot disc) CD of some sort in order to mount and select any OS from a cold start using the boot picker.

Strange. I never had any cold boot issues with my Mac Mini 1.42 (before it went into coma). But then, my 1.3 adapters were from the recent batch. Yours are probably a bit older. Who knows what parts they've used this time over there..

Again, I suspect the different voltage regulators used on the V1.3 and will eventually swap them out with the V1.5's AMS regulators.

They both are bog standard low-dropout regulators, produced by a variety of manufacturers all over the world. A knock offs of National Semiconductor LM1117 design, if I'm not mistaken. One is by MicrOne, the other by Advanced Monolithic Systems. Unless any of these two manufacturers screwed up something in their processes or adapter producers used parts from rejects bin, their performance should be equal IF the implementation is as recommended in datasheets (see below).

As for the “different” PCB layouts (anyone can play) try to spot any differences:

Thanks for the pictures! I inspected them closely and can say that the layouts are identical electrically. The only differences are how some vias and pads connect to copper pours, some trace thickness and, of course, the silkscreening.
First two can easily happen when you import somebody else's design into your CAD application but your preferences for 'import' or 'refill copper pour' are set differently. Or, if you think that you know better, you just change those. It's not a big deal.

I checked the datasheets of LM1117 and some of its derivatives and this is what really draw my attention:



I don't see any 10uF or larger Tantalum or Electrolytic caps on these two adapters. I highly doubt that any of the 4 larger ceramic caps are 10uF. I haven't checked lately, but, I think the ceramics stopped at 1uF. (This is what I've used in the past and even they were in larger, 1206 size).
It is difficult to guarantee that 1,8 Volts for JM20330 will come before 3,3V with > 10uF capacitors, because their capacitance tolerances are quite large. (+/- 20%, +20/-80% etc.)
I look at these two boards and am wondering how do they work at all. Unless I've missed something, for me, both designs are marginal..
(But I still like them, because they're cheap, compact and can be used with naked 2.5" SSDs).

EDIT.
A clever design would use a watchdog or reset IC, which monitors 1,8 Volt line and, only when that reaches certain threshold, releases the reset pin of the JM20330 controller.
"White box" adapters use different approach - they use voltage drop of two diodes to get down to 1,8V from a single 3,3V regulator, that powers everything, including mSATA drive, and in that way guarantee that the both voltages at least come up at the same time. But that voltage regulator is of larger size (spec'ed for higher current), you can't fit it to v1.3 or v1.5 adapters.

[ssp3]

I’m leaning more towards the half-height mSATA “white case” in nekkid mode

Bad design from thermal point of view. Put a full size mSATA drive on it and you will get one hot sandwich.
(See my pics in the other thread with mini size mSATA drive. That's the only way that I would use it).

Still awaiting M.2 SSD performance reports from anyone running that setup in a G4 Mac mini.

There you go. Mac Mini 1.42

A couple of comments.
* All are OEM drives.
* Stay away from PM881, especially from 2021. It has manufacturing problems. Defects, even when new (see last attachment).
* PM871b is power hungry - 1,8A. Tested only briefly to see how hot the regulator will get.
* CM871 is a DRAM-less low power gem - 0,7A.
* Toshiba (with meaningless model name) is even better - 0,4A, but only 24GB in size.
* M.2 drives generally are of newer design with faster controllers and higher current consumpion than mSATA.
128GB and smaller are relatively rare (I'm ignoring products from 'over there').

[DieHard]

So, I will break all this down... 20 pages in a few sentences...

If you are:

1) NOT an electrical engineer
2) Have a mac mini
3) can swap out components (like a drive)

Buy this for $39: https://www.amazon.com/Ableconn-IIDE-MSAT-2-5-Inch-Converter-Aluminum/dp/B017VQT5YW

OR...save $26 and... 

Buy this for $13: https://www.amazon.com/mSATA-44pin-Notebook-Laptop-Enclosure/dp/B01GRMUQRG?th=1
and also buy a soldering station, diodes, heat gun, capacitors, some electrical engineering books, and learn the art of circuit board modification
Damn that $26 might not go so far