Author Topic: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.  (Read 997 times)

Offline rvcjew

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • I wan't to learn more about this age of tech.
Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« on: February 07, 2019, 05:49:38 PM »
Hi, I have a Client that has an 8600 with 9.1 on the original ID:0 SCSI 50 pin drive which I believe is the term power device for the BUS 0 Chain. It runs fine but I'm trying to upgrade it to a Sun 390-0175 72GB 3 1/2" 10000 RPM Ultra-320 SCSI Hard Drive MAT3073NC https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N4VALK0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 with an adapter to have it be more up to date and stay reliable. I was originally called out to help though as they said it had a loud screech noise and the second HDD in there on ID:04 kicked the bucket and was grinding. At this point I am trying to use the adapted drive to clone the existing boot device to it (will 9.1 see it unformatted, and I read you can just drag everything over including the system folder as long as it's mac extended formatted and it will be bootable?). My issue is the second HDD will not get detected in 9.1 in the apple profiler as I don't see any ID: I set it too. The drive that came out has the attached jumpers (looks like it may have been doing Power Term?) but I don't really see any way to replicate that on this adapter. I'm sure I am just not seeing the correct way to do this and would love some advice from this very cool community that obviously seems to know a lot about these specific systems and the technology behind them.

Thanks.
Malcolm

The pics show the adapter, drive taken out, and and the current good drive on the profiler (labeled new hard disk by the client but it is the OG main one).

Offline macarone

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2019, 07:46:49 PM »
The SCSI ID, whether the drive is terminated or not, and whether term power is on or off is set by jumpers on the hard drive.

You must be sure both drives are not configured for the same SCSI ID, and also not for the SCSI ID of the computer itself.

If the adaptor you have is to connect a 68 pin device to a 50 pin bus, you will lose the added performance of the hard drive with this arrangement. For this arrangement to work, you must turn OFF termination on the first drive in the chain, and ON for the last drive in the chain. unless the internal SCSI cable has a built in terminator at the end, in which case termination on all connected drives should be OFF.

The problem may be that the adaptor is actually to connect a 50 pin device to a 68 pin bus, and I don't think this will work at all. 68 pin devices are usually backward compatible with a 50 pin bus, but only with the correct adaptor, and then the increase in speed of the device is lost.

Better to get a PCI SCSI host adaptor. They are not expensive on E-bay. Make sure the one you buy has an internal connector. I think some had external connectors only. ATTO made nice ones.


Offline rvcjew

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • I wan't to learn more about this age of tech.
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2019, 08:39:01 PM »
The SCSI ID, whether the drive is terminated or not, and whether term power is on or off is set by jumpers on the hard drive.

You must be sure both drives are not configured for the same SCSI ID, and also not for the SCSI ID of the computer itself.

If the adaptor you have is to connect a 68 pin device to a 50 pin bus, you will lose the added performance of the hard drive with this arrangement. For this arrangement to work, you must turn OFF termination on the first drive in the chain, and ON for the last drive in the chain. unless the internal SCSI cable has a built in terminator at the end, in which case termination on all connected drives should be OFF.

The problem may be that the adaptor is actually to connect a 50 pin device to a 68 pin bus, and I don't think this will work at all. 68 pin devices are usually backward compatible with a 50 pin bus, but only with the correct adaptor, and then the increase in speed of the device is lost.

Better to get a PCI SCSI host adaptor. They are not expensive on E-bay. Make sure the one you buy has an internal connector. I think some had external connectors only. ATTO made nice ones.

Wow thank your for the very important and detailed info, I am aware it lowers the speed and it is being done for just reliability as the OG drive will likely fail soon like the slave did as they should be around the same age. I did look on here but all at least pci-ide or sata adapters listed I cant find anywhere or they require the eprom to be flashed which if it was me I would do but I don't want to give the client anything that could be non reliable in the future. I will check the main drive in a couple days to see what jumpers are on it and how it is terminated. Is there a simple way to tell if the 50 pin cable is pre terminated vs using the jumpers on the drive? This is the adapter I have gotten https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074TYC7KC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Once it is working I plan on copying the contents of the OG drive to the new one and then making it the first drive in the chain and removing the OG to be stored as a back up.
Malcolm

Offline devils_advisor

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 763
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 03:24:18 AM »
From the picture your drive is terminated but no id is assigned yet. Use a jumper to assign id 1 and do that on the adapter as well. It is possible the adapter needs to be assigned the id instead of the drive. That might be the issue why its not showing up. I guess there is no auto assignments.  Besides the hardware is older and i dont know much about the internal bus and chip but you might have to use the delay on the drive to wait for the system to get going before it is seen. The cable you got does it have a piece of plastic on the end like a angle? If so thats a terminator. Atto cards can be set to auto terminate from memory. Dont know if all do that but recent versions do.

Offline macarone

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2019, 03:01:13 PM »
I just tried to pass along info from my own experience without really checking what equipment you had.

I checked further, and found info for the new hard drive here:

https://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/COMP/fcpa/hdd/discontinued/mat3xxxnc-np_prod-manual.pdf

From what I can see in the manual, the drive has connectors for BOTH traditional SCSI cables as well as the SCA 80 pin connector that combines data and power connections in one.

So, I don't think the adaptor is even needed. A molex power, and an internal SCSI cable are all that are needed, BUT it has to be an adaptor cable that connects a 50 pin source to a 68 pin device. These usually come with built in "high bit termination" to take care of the unused wires It may or may not have a built in 50 pin terminator.

The manual also has information for jumper settings for termination and SCSI type.

BUT I still think a cheap PCI SCSI card would make better use of the drive than connecting it to the Mac's internal SCSI:

I haven't checked these carefully, but list them just to give you an idea of what is available:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LSI-Logic-SYM21040-33-Dual-Channel-SCSI-LVD-SE-PCI-Host-Adapter-Controller-Card/192813618099?hash=item2ce49653b3:g:lp0AAOSw5cRZLJ2i:rk:42:pf:0.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LSI-Logic-LSI21320-Dual-Ultra320-SCSI-Controller/123204022329?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D55675%26meid%3D63fbb86a43414b5db4a79b038ec391e9%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D121913165143%26itm%3D123204022329&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982

While I understand sticking with SCSI for certain scanners, tape drives, etc., my experience has been that even vintage computers work great with PCI SATA cards, and current hard drives. Just be sure not to go over 2 TB's per hard drive, nor over 190 gigs per partition. Anything above those is a no-no.

Offline macarone

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2019, 08:15:30 PM »
I checked that Fujitsu manual again, and just realized it is for TWO different models of hard drives, and the drive you have doesn't have the 68 pin and molex power connectors, but the single SCA 80 pin connector.

So the adaptor you have IS needed.

I hope the link to the manual helps set your jumpers.

Still after going for that particular hard drive, I think a PCI SCSI host adaptor card would be nice to have.

Sorry if I made some confusion. Hope this helps!

Offline rvcjew

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • I wan't to learn more about this age of tech.
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 10:30:38 PM »
I checked that Fujitsu manual again, and just realized it is for TWO different models of hard drives, and the drive you have doesn't have the 68 pin and molex power connectors, but the single SCA 80 pin connector.

So the adaptor you have IS needed.

I hope the link to the manual helps set your jumpers.

Still after going for that particular hard drive, I think a PCI SCSI host adaptor card would be nice to have.

Sorry if I made some confusion. Hope this helps!

No confusion thanks, I was making another post and got held up so it's still a draft but you figgured out what I meant about needing the adapter but after reading some other forums it seems I may need a termination adapter as I guess the Mac bus is narrow and the drive is wide so it needs the last 9 signal wires it has terminated beyond the chain termination. The client only wants to use the machine another 2 years in which he thinks he'll be done with writing. He's 78 and uses the Mac since he has his language on a special keymap with suitcase fonts. I will pitch him the pci card idea. For the time being I backed all his files up on a flash drive so with the knowledge I now have from here I'm confident if it were to go out as long as he is backing up the good drive (2GB) then in the future we can move to a newer layout. I'm also pretty sure I can get his font to work on a g5 he has which would be substantially easier to maintain in the future.
Malcolm

Offline devils_advisor

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 763
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2019, 03:57:26 AM »
Have you tried to make a copy of it and run it under lets say tiger ? Unless you need some access to hardware this might be a transition way or the way to go for the client?

Offline macarone

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • New Member
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2019, 03:46:40 PM »
I can't really tell for sure from the picture, but is it possible that the adaptor was really designed to connect an SCA drive to a 68 pin host? And the 50 pin connector is to add another device, say an optical drive? I'm not sure if such an adaptor would work as you are trying. The adaptor may have built in high bit termination for the 50 pin connector, which might interfere with the hard drive the way you have it connected.

I still think a PCI SCSI host card connected to the adaptor's 68 pin connector might work where other arrangements don't.

Old Postscript fonts work in the latest G5 running Tiger/Leopard/Snowleopard, as long as BOTH the Suitcase font and all the relative outline fonts are in the Library/Fonts folder.

There was a System 7/8 font utility called FontMonger that converted between font formats. Not sure if it worked in OS 9.
I'd be glad to u/l if anybody wants this,  and can't find it online.

Offline refinery

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 156
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2019, 06:12:43 PM »
you need to take the ID jumpers off the drive itself, and only use jumpers on the adapter to specify its ID setting. its getting confused because the system is seeing the adaptor as the SCSI device, and not the drive itself, and since you have no jumpers on the adaptor, its basically set to ID0... Hence why you can't see it. The ID needs to be specified on the adaptor, it is *not* passed through the adapter from the drive.

set the drives themselves to 0, and use the adapter to specify its SCSI ID.  SCSI will auto-negotiate an appropriate speed as long as its in the right ID realm (0-7 instead of wide 0-15)

you may or may not need to keep term power active on the drive itself. not sure on that and it may vary by adapter.

i used to use a bunch of these in my old 8600 years ago. still have some of those adapters lying around too.
G4/MDD 1.42 (9), G4/GB 500DP (X), Beige G3 400 (upgraded) (9), PBG4Ti 1Ghz (X), PBG3WS 300 (9)

got my mind on my scsi and my scsi on my mind

Offline rvcjew

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • I wan't to learn more about this age of tech.
Re: Can't get a SCSI adapter for Internal BUS 0 drive to work.
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2019, 07:28:49 PM »
Hi everyone it's been a hot minute, I got pretty sick and now i'm back and  want to finish this job so we tried some other stuff yesterday. I did get his G4 working and we tried his OS9 ide drive on it and it would not boot as the g4 is the firewire 800 version so just to new for booting OS 9 so then we installed his apps in 10.4 and in classic mode they work but the machine is not fast enough to keep up with the emulation going on unfortunately. So we are back to using the 9600 and our goal if we can do it now is get a bootable pci to ide (or sata makes no difference to me) card that we can just use as the main drive but I can't seem to find the ones listed as working on this forum anywhere to buy even at high prices. I have downloaded a lot of firmware for the SIL3512 cards but I guess only specific ones of this work? I can use a windows bootable for flashing the eeprom of the card if needed on a generic if it will end up being bootable for OS 9. I did not get time to look more into the trying of the current adapter I got without a jumper on the drive ect. The client had a serious item he was working on and did not want to open the machine at the time.

Thanks.
Malcolm