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Author Topic: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!  (Read 6696 times)

vimanas

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1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« on: January 31, 2018, 10:36:32 PM »

hey all!

quick question - hoping someone can assist with my troubleshooting efforts.

i recently purchased a 1.25 DP MDD G4 from craigslist for a song to compliment my beautifully running 1.25 single CPU MDD and at first, it worked well. in my single cpu model, i'm running 10.5 on one drive and os9 on another and have never had any problems. as the 1.25 DP didn't come with any hard disks installed, I swapped both drives from my working machine into the DP and used the model specific distro of OS9 from this forum to reformat the OS9 drive. everything seemed to be working fine for awhile, until i shut the DP down from my initial tests and tried to restart it.

when i restarted in leopard, the machine would get to the grey apple boot screen and immediately shut down. i was able to restart and select my os9 drive and successfully boot to my desktop. i then tried booting from my leopard install DVD, but same sympton - grey apple boot screen, then shutdown.

assuming perhaps some RAM had gone bad or something to that effect, I ordered a fresh pair of 512s from OWC and a 120gb seagate drive to start from scratch with a fresh set of memory and a fresh drive to install os9 on. everything arrived today and i installed the hard drive and the new RAM and attempted to boot to the install disc to get things rolling and now, all i get after either choosing the os9 disc from the startup disk select screen (holding alt/option at startup) or starting up from the disc by holding 'c', all i get is a grey screen with an icon of a 3 1/2" floppy disk that stays there...forever.

i've thoroughly cleaned and dusted the interior of the machine, so i know i'm not getting any stray cat hairs or anything to that effect lodged in the ram slots during my install (which laid my 2006 mac pro low before, so i'm wary of that sort of thing) and i've tried resetting the PRAM but to no avail.

any help would be appreciated!
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FdB

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2018, 12:07:48 AM »

Deja Vu / Well, it's almost Groundhog Day.

Quick shot from the hip…

Put the original drives back into your single processor MDD and establish that working stability first and foremost. After that… and all is firmly stable again… in your old machine, I would then place and reformat your newly acquired drive in that stable machine. Protect that working SP.

Then, you might either clone your working 10.5 drive to the new drive AND/OR download the appropriate software from here (or MacintoshGarden) and then install that on the new drive… while it’s in your old SP MDD. THEN move that drive to your DP MDD and try booting.

I say this because I had an DP MDD a year ago that I wiped the drive completely... before attempting to clean install software, and I had OS X install software from here MacGarden. (People sent me disks too!) I could get it to install OS 9 after many trials but could not get it to accept any OS X software at all, period. Ended up getting another drive with OS 10.5 cloned from someone else*. Then, and only then, was I able to do clean installs of OS X sequential versions up to OS 10.5. It seemed like there was just something missing in firmware or something somewhere, that simply would not allow me to install the software before I got the new 10.5 drive, pre-cloned from the *Patron Saint of (seemingly), Lost Causes here.

Care to review my nightmare? See:   
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3813.msg25479.html#msg25479 &
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3822.msg25619.html#msg25619

Of course, the possibility exists that you may have “other” problems with the DP MDD but, beginning with a sound base of functional software, in a functional machine, on drive(s) that you know will work is square one. One drive with OS 10.5 and (if possible), one with OS 9.2.2. If that doesn't work then PMU reset time (or, even before all of this).

I know you said that your SP MDD drive booted and ran for a while in the DP MDD before it puked and that’s why I suggested doing the clean install of appropriate software from here for your DP while the new drive is in your SP (as the software from the SP didn’t work or wouldn’t allow you to boot again after shutdown. BUT get that SP stable so both machines are not down. Fresh battery in the DP too?

Did you format the new Seagate with OS 9 driver option?

You might go ahead and PM me your address, should disks, etcetera need to be sent.

OR… maybe someone else here knows the simple, magic solution.

Keep in touch and the very best of luck.

I’m not lost. I know where I am. I’ve been lost here before (and in Philly).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:31:53 AM by Fury deBongo »
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FdB

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2018, 12:32:31 PM »

Or, then there's this... from MOS+ concerning boot probs when installing ZIF upgrades.
I thought one of mine had failed because the machine would refuse to power on.
The solution was to plug it in and try once to turn it on, unplug it for five to ten minutes,
plug in and power on again, and then it would magically 'rise from the dead'.
Might be interesting to also hear various views/methods on proper PMU reset procedure
... as there seem to be many varieties of just how a PMU reset should be approached.

Hopefully, you've already solved your problem and this is all moot at this point. I know
that I was willing to try anything (and nearly tried everything), when mine was down.
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GaryN

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2018, 05:06:36 PM »

Or, then there's this... from MOS+ concerning boot probs when installing ZIF upgrades.
I thought one of mine had failed because the machine would refuse to power on.
The solution was to plug it in and try once to turn it on, unplug it for five to ten minutes,
plug in and power on again, and then it would magically 'rise from the dead'.
Might be interesting to also hear various views/methods on proper PMU reset procedure
... as there seem to be many varieties of just how a PMU reset should be approached.
This problem /procedure is not related to the PMU. This one's a very common issue where the standby power fails after shutdown. The cure is exactly what OS Plus was doing - except there's no need to wait for hours. A simple Unplug-for-a-few-seconds-then-replug-the-AC enables the machine to restart.
I have actually continued to use an MDD PSU in this condition for a few months by simply putting the MDD on a switched outlet strip so I could flip it off and back on before starting the MDD with no ill effects.

As far vimanas's issue, after a careful read, it appears that the machine simply won't boot OSX - at least, not the copy he's trying to feed it.
It kinda sounds like, having been configured on / coming from a single-proc machine, the install is lacking something (and no, I don't know what - unless it's some kind of OSX equivalent of the OS9 Multiprocessing Folder/File)

The proper (yeah I know, who's proper?) "cure" for this is to install OSX "fresh" from a "real" CD or DVD yes we have been here before… , not a copy of a copy or whatever so everything is guaranteed to be there in it's place. Otherwise it hack 'n hack until you find the right one.
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vimanas

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2018, 12:34:39 AM »

thank you both for your input!

thankfully i've got both original drives back in my SP running like a top as usual, so no headaches on the drives themselves from the swap. i've tried the PMU reset, but still the same condition persists - i was actually able to achieve a boot after leaving it off for awhile and then resetting the PRAM for a duration of three chimes (one for each stick of 512 MB ram i installed - i probably read that somewhere) to the point where i was able to format the hard drive and cleanly install os9 - i was able to restart immediately after the install completed and i ejected the optical disc, but after another shut down/power on cycle, the eternal floppy icon started again - no flashing question mark or anything, just a grey screen with a 3 1/2" floppy icon forever and ever amen. i would actually be thrilled
 to see a flashing question mark.

i ordered some brand new PRAM batteries that should be arriving tomorrow as my next move, i would think, should be to install a new battery and do a PMU reset.

i'm gonna dig deep into those threads though, fury, as i'm sure there's plenty to try in there - thank you!
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ratzfatz

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 04:52:52 AM »

as the 1.25 DP didn't come with any hard disks installed, I swapped both drives from my working machine into the DP and used the model specific distro of OS9 from this forum to reformat the OS9 drive. everything seemed to be working fine for awhile, until i shut the DP down from my initial tests and tried to restart it.

when i restarted in leopard, the machine would get to the grey apple boot screen and immediately shut down. i was able to restart and select my os9 drive and successfully boot to my desktop. i then tried booting from my leopard install DVD, but same sympton - grey apple boot screen, then shutdown.
Did you rearrange the drives in their new destination? Have you changed the interface cable, or are you using a different connector for the IDE cable on the motherboard? You did not take the drives along with their (genuine) IDE cable from the one Mac and put them (along with the cables attached) into the other one and connected to the same IDE port on the motherboard where they have been connected before?

I have had a similary scenario and found out that the master / slave jumpers did not match. An easy way not to make this happen again was to swap the drives along with their cables and never put them on a different IDE bus.

I also had the same problem after formating the drives with OS9. I always do the formatting now with disk utility on the OSX installer DVD. I use the lowest possible system release for that – never the highest. Hope that helps.
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GaryN

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 11:18:13 AM »

This is the second post just today that seems to be about the same "MDD oddity".
The MDD uses what they affectionately call "cable select" on the IDE buses. There is no "master" "slave" setup.
So, it seems that if the HDD you're installing doesn't have a "cable select" jumper setting, it will only work in one position.
If you can set the HDD to "cable select" it will work anywhere.
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vimanas

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 09:30:04 PM »

updates!

so no, in reference to ratzfatz, i haven't changed the order or arrangement of the drives at all - i was very careful to retain the same working master/slave configuration i had in the SP MDD and replicate it within the DP. the only change i've made since, as per GaryN's suggestion, was attempting to install the new seagate drive with the jumpers set to 'cable select' - same condition persists! all i get is the floppy disk icon, no question marks.

oh! the new PRAM battery arrived as well - i've swapped that into the DP MDD and tried the PMU reset before doing the swap - no change.

Fury I saw the PM you sent - i'll respond as soon as i get a spare moment to dig into it, thank you for your help!
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GaryN

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2018, 12:49:38 PM »

Well, I'm about played out here. This just makes no sense.
One last Hail Mary idea: We are certain that the ATA33 bus works because you can load up a CD and boot from it, right?

Plug one of the HDD's into the CD connector and see if it pops up. If it does, it will boot - albeit slowly.
If it doesn't, it would appear that BOTH the ATA66 and ATA100 buses are fried somehow and it's new motherboard time.
I honestly have difficulty imagining how this can happen but: A) I'm no expert on the internal MDD architecture but there must be a point where they come together so a failure there could affect both of them although you'd think that would probably affect the CD bus as well so aargh! who knows, and B) I think we've pretty much exhausted every other possibility.

Then there's (bad?) firmware??

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Astroman

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Re: 1.24 DP MDD Hangs at boot - Help!
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2018, 03:39:14 PM »

if a MDD shows wiered behavior, the Ram is worth a check - unless it's all original 'Apple' labeled. If you have Dimms upgraded, remove all except the factory stuff. Or if it's a mixture of various brands try one set after the other.
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FdB

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Re: 1.25 DP MDD HANGS
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2018, 01:06:29 PM »

As if so many other possible considerations have not already been offered…
here's adding more mud to the water

Gleaned the following (concerning a no-boot MDD 1GHz DP) from:
       https://discussions.apple.com/thread/434109 (Read all replies)

-“The "PC2600" is a known 'bug' and has not been addressed since it arose
    in 10.3.0, oddly enough. I would still buy some 512MB PC2700
.”
    (RAM concerns.)

-“If it is one of the CPUs that is failing, it is possible to disable one
    in Open Firmware.
” (This is a “new one” to me.)

And finally... this little gem.

-“The PMG4 doesn't boot from the restore disks, they just have an installer
    application on them that has to be run whilst booted from [resident] hard disk
.”
                                                                                  -Simon Teale / April 7, 2006
(i.e. the "Something-[She's]-Not-There" scenario.)

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2hXBf1DakE     The Zombies/1964
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoz8iXjfH4Y               Santana/1977
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 02:02:59 PM by Fury deBongo »
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FdB

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Re: 1.25 DP MDD HANGS / FIREWIRE 800!
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 05:10:31 PM »

File this one under the heading of “we may never know”. Unless an active member here lives close enough to Philadelphia to take Vimanas up on his offer and swoop in to relieve him of this machine. (PM Vimanas for details.) Vimanas has decided to “give it up” citing: “a personal rule when it comes to older technology like this - as soon as i find i'm spending more time troubleshooting something than i am actually making something with it, that means it's time for it to go. this is how i hope to avoid my vintage apple products multiplying like rabbits (which they already sort of are), i just want to minimize my clutter as much as possible.” Now that is self-control.

However, it seems that he was successful in installing the necessary OS 9 & OS X software on two separate drives in his 1.25 single processor MDD and then, by moving both of those to his 1.25 dual processor MDD… he was eventually able to boot, run and EVEN install the same software again, via the optical drive of the 1.25 DP. SUCCESS! (Well, perhaps a short-lived success.)

Afterwards, while at work, his girlfriend moved the machine “from one shelf to another, less than two feet” and then the MDD was back to its’ old tricks. “power button lights up, goes dark, lights back up during the chime, loads to OS boot screen and either hangs eternally on the OS 9 side or shuts off on the OS X side - exact same condition as before.” My 1.25 DP MDD does the same “light, light-off, then solid light” at startup but it does go on to stable boot. Suspecting some fault on Vimanas' power button circuit, I have offered to send him a replacement power button to replace his. (Perhaps late, as his MDD is already listed on eBay.)

“SOMETHING is loose in there - this has got to be a hardware issue that doesn't have to do with the HDD, optical drive, ram or processor (as all work beautifully otherwise!).”

During this, and my own efforts to duplicate / test this “install on one machine and move to another” routine, I did also discover that the single processor 1GHz MDD that I used to more closely duplicate his conditions, was in fact a later model FW 800 MDD with boot rom 4.60f1. And, from looking at the title & pics on the eBay listing, Vimanas’ 1.25 Dual… is also a FW 800 model. So, maybe the same boot rom on his machine contibuted to this malady? At any rate, thought others might be interested in all of this and offer up pertinent, additional theory / commentary?

Seems odd that his machine would boot OS 9? My FW 800 SP MDD won’t… although HDs with the OSs installed on my FW 800 DO flawlessly BOOT when transferred to my 1.25 DP MDD. Rather an inverse of Vimanas’ (surmised), ROM 4.48f2 (SP non-FW 800) to his DP FW 800 MDD. This FW 800 info might have been helpful, upfront.

GaryN quote: "Then there's (bad?) firmware??"

At the very least, this exercise has provided me with the “VTE” syndrome-effect acronym for future reference / use. The “Vimanas-Teale-Effect” to partially replace the previous “Something-Not-There” …in this case, describing the fact that Original MDD Restore / Install disks are not bootable… as are not any copies or generations thereafter, via the aforementioned disks.

And as remaining “working” MDD numbers become more finite (with a good portion of those still working, represented here on MacOS9Lives), possibly… there will be more MDD “shells” (sans HDs and / or PSUs), that similar resurrections may also be attempted upon? (Just spreading the “gospel” and the possible “propagation of the faith”. Can I get an Ahh-men?)

For additional never-say-die “hack and hack and hack” testimonials in possibly related veins, see:

“WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?”
www.arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=134541

AND, thank you Vimanas… for your patience and contribution(s) to “the cause”.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 05:28:00 PM by Fury deBongo »
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