Author Topic: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?  (Read 7529 times)

Offline part12studios

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where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« on: June 05, 2016, 11:58:20 AM »
Hi everyone,

So I have two pieces of hardware.  MOTU Midi Time Piece AV x2.. one is USB and one is serial.  They can be networked together through a 9 pin port on each. 

On eBay, I ordered two "serial cables" that were the right pin configuration..  but nothing seems to happen. 

it needs to be round on both ends.

In digging deeper I have learned that there were printer cables.. and modem cables.. and they were not exactly the same even though the pins are the same, but not the same wiring. 

So I believe I have ordered the wrong kind.. serial/printer..  not modem.  Does anyone know where I could find one of these cables. 

alternately I would wonder if there is a way to make such a cable out of the incorrect printer cables I do own that are useless now since they appear to not work. 

Thanks,
Caleb
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 09:03:38 AM by part12studios »

Offline Metrophage

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Re: where can i find a 9 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2016, 01:24:58 PM »
9-pin round? The only 9-pin round modem cables I know of are for the Mac GeoPort modems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeoPort

My serial MTP AV (which I have hardly used, so don't know much about) uses 8-pin MINI-DIN serial.

There are quite few different kinds of serial cables, and it can be confusing. I would do a web search for the main kinds, RS232 and RS422, and check out the various kinds of connections. With some patience, one can use a meter or continuity tester to test the pins on their cable to know how it is wired inside. With some, certain wires may either go straight through, or cross over.

First, I would check the manual or call MOTU, because them saying exactly what kind of cable it should be should make finding one much easier.

Offline IIO

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Re: where can i find a 9 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2016, 01:53:48 PM »
they are very similar but normally a modem cable should not fit into the hole for a "printer" serial cable.

are you sure the interfaces can be linked that way when the master is attached to USB?
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Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 9 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2016, 02:14:59 PM »
sorry this was vague.  This is the cable I have:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141954689232?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


this is what the AV looks like on the back (identical but use version just has a usb port in addition)

http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/motu-midi-timepiece-av-291976.jpg

they physically plug in fine.. not like i had to force the cable to fit.

yes surprisingly it is very explicit in the manual that a usb equipped unit can network with a non usb unit.  this is done via the computer but i'm having trouble getting the computer to see the networked unit. 

the Mac sees the AV (usb).. just not the networked unit..  going to reach out to MOTU tomorrow as well but given the age of the software / hardware you can imagine it's likely they could be "i don't know.." :)



Offline Metrophage

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Re: where can i find a 9 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2016, 03:25:18 PM »
Those are eight-pin cables, both from the seller and on your MOTU. The seller has a PDF of the datasheet here:

http://www.cablewholesale.com/pdfspecs/10m3-041.pdf

...which shows that those connect straight through, pin 1 to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, etc. I think that's not what works for Mac MIDI, where the clock and data lines need to cross over like this:


Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 9 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2016, 11:12:41 PM »
ah ok that would explain it.  Ok so this is interesting and may very well be the solution.  That said, i'm making sure i'm reading this right..  which if the pins from the graphic to the left would need to be swapped?   I'm not sure i follow the clock / data lines you're talking about. 

I have two of these cables I ordered so I could experiment on one and then do a neater job on the 2nd one I just want to be sure I know what wires I am going into reverse.

Also of course making sure I don't fry either / both pieces of hardware also, so explicit instructions to the uninitiated would be super helpful! :)

Thanks,
Caleb

Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 9 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2016, 09:03:09 AM »
hey there, i think i might have found a solution:

I just bought this.. it was $9..  seemed like a worthwhile attempt:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diamond-Supra-Express-336-External-33-6-V-42-Data-Fax-Modem-MAC-Macintosh-TESTED-/161870660220?hash=item25b03e427c:g:sBsAAOSw14xWLoxe

notice the cable it comes with?  would this be the "modem" cable needed?  I'm assuming that modem cable meant the cable was needed to work with actual modems :) 

It will arrive in a few days so I will be able to get to the bottom of it..

I did contact MOTU support (awesome guys over there) and they did confirm they don't have those cables anymore.  So I hope this does the trick. 

If anyone thinks this might be a problem / the wrong kind of cable, let me know.. maybe I can hunt around for other cables..   or as I mentioned before, hack the two brand new (i ordered 2 at the time) 8-pin round printer cables.

Thanks!
Caleb

Offline nanopico

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Re: where can i find a 9 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2016, 12:06:07 PM »
hey there, i think i might have found a solution:

I just bought this.. it was $9..  seemed like a worthwhile attempt:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diamond-Supra-Express-336-External-33-6-V-42-Data-Fax-Modem-MAC-Macintosh-TESTED-/161870660220?hash=item25b03e427c:g:sBsAAOSw14xWLoxe

notice the cable it comes with?  would this be the "modem" cable needed?  I'm assuming that modem cable meant the cable was needed to work with actual modems :) 

It will arrive in a few days so I will be able to get to the bottom of it..

I did contact MOTU support (awesome guys over there) and they did confirm they don't have those cables anymore.  So I hope this does the trick. 

If anyone thinks this might be a problem / the wrong kind of cable, let me know.. maybe I can hunt around for other cables..   or as I mentioned before, hack the two brand new (i ordered 2 at the time) 8-pin round printer cables.

Thanks!
Caleb

http://stn2.headgap.com/resale/FMPro?-token=13998941&-db=ProductsC.fp3&-lay=WEB&-format=items.htm&-sortfield=SortID&-Max=40&category=cables&-find

If the cable you ordered ends up not working these guys sell one that may work.  I ordered a couple not long ago for linking a PCI-324 to a MIDI Time piece with no issue.
Scroll down about 2/3 of the way down and they have the serial cable.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it, or break it so you can fix it!

Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2016, 01:05:40 PM »
awesome yea that's great.  I'm going to cross my fingers that this cable that is tested and working with the modem that it comes with is in fact itself a modem cable.. one would think it must be..

plus bonus.. i get a 33.6 modem out of the deal ;)

Thanks!
Caleb

Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2016, 02:02:39 PM »
well unfortunately i didn't look close and realize now that the cable was attached to the modem.  it got it's power this way as well. 

i'll keep hunting around.. nothing so far, but i think i see now..  it's not just one cable flipped I need to rewire a number of them to make it work.. this will be interesting to try.. thankfully i ordered 2 at the time so I can practice on one and make the 2nd one better if i can't save the first one.

Thanks! :)
Caleb
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 02:36:51 PM by part12studios »

Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2016, 03:55:15 PM »
well i did the wiring according to the network.. for what it's worth here is how the coloring of the cable was for me:

1 - red
2 - brown
3 - green
4 - yellow
5 - orange
6 - black
7 - blue
8 - grounding

this is the color of wire that corresponded to each of the pins.  My son helped me (7) as we tested for resistance. 

So I wired it up and I will say this.. it definitely must be the cable, but wiring up the two as the chart above shows made both units kinda freak out..  i don't think it damaged the two units.. but clearly not normal behavior but at LEAST they both did some lights / dancing..  where before there was NADA with the cable wired up.

I have started a ticket with MOTU to see if they might have the original configuration information somewhere.  They've been outstanding in supporting me with other questions often "off menu". 

I'm not say my wiring job was perfect, but i'm pretty sure I got it right. 

one thing to note.  My cables actually had 10 wires if you count the grounding wire.. I had a gray and purple wire that were unaccounted for so they simply didn't get wired up.. left open.. 

Thanks,
Caleb

Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2016, 09:55:39 AM »
so the plot thickens some..  I found this website and it seems to offer some options but i'm still not sure which of these would be the right configuration.

http://whitefiles.org/b1_s/1_free_guides/fg1mt/pgs/h10a.htm
 
this seems to offer several well illustrated (in combination with that helpful reference above in this thread!) options but they even show

I've been bending the ear of the guys over at MOTU but so far they haven't come back with a concrete answer yet. 

This feels promising. but i'm wondering with the images

Also oddly.. my own cables appear to have extra wires which makes me wonder if they can just be ignored or if this a real problem? 



also in illustrations like this below.. when they link back does that mean they need to be wired back to the other pin?  weird that it would need that but i guess it has it's reasons if that's the case. 



specifically talking about examples like the last one where DSR / DCD / DTR are all linked to each other.. while only Ground, TXD and RXD and others connect to the other side. 

Thanks,
Caleb

Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2016, 01:51:21 PM »
so the plot thickens.. i think i've found several possible solutions:

here is what i ordered ($12 with shipping)
http://cdn.opentip.com/Electronics/Iec-Apple-Mac-Mini-Din-Male-To-Male-Local-Talk-p-1575403.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwp-S6BRDj4Z7z2IWUhG8SJAAbqbF3EWmlhUWdyAblL1zszJ72RdHW6DP4sMH6Ar6rmYo2HRoC_Rvw_wcB

"The M1527 is designed to connect to Apple Peripherals which require a crossed wiring. The M1527 is not a straight through cable, for a straight through wiring, see our M1521."

however another solution i might try if it doesn't work is this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-APPLETALK-Connector-Kit-In-box-Complete-No-Tray-Instructions-Unopened-/272249736761?hash=item3f63594e39:g:5dMAAOSwEOxXP98Z

in the MOTU MTP AV manual it does specifically refer to the cable as an "appletalk" cable but i wrote the seller to find out about the cord in the listing.. it could be the right kind or it might be one of those "black peg" cables as seen with units like the Mac Classic on the keyboard / mouse inputs (kinda like a ps2 cable but different)

Now more waiting...



Offline GaryN

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Re: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 02:13:14 PM »
I think I can save you some more confusion. Here’s the key to all of this that you’re missing:

RS-422 is a variant of RS-232. Boy, that’s helpful, right?
Actually, it is. Rs 232 and 422 are communications protocols. There are two kinds: one-way and two-way.

Let me list them…clarity is coming, just hang in there.

First, the simple switch lines. These go either high or low and indicate stuff to the devices on each end:
This is oversimplification, but let’s just say that because these are in a steady state i.e. either “on” or “off”, they are simply connected to each other on both ends and the devices sort out what to do after detecting the voltage states.

DSR   Data Set Ready
DCD   Data Carrier Detect
DTR   Data Terminal Ready

Then, there are:

HANDSHAKING
RTS   Request To Send
CTS   Clear To Send

DATA
TXD   Transmitted Data
RXD   Received Data

These are ever-changing digital data carriers. They require that the transmit on one end be connected to the receive on the other end… in both directions.

SO… this requires what we call a crossover cable. The transmit pin on one end has to cross over to the receive pin on the other end.

This would be great BUT we’re talking about Mr. “Can’t leave well enough alone” Jobs here remember… he had to do it differently, so he used RS-422 with two pairs of lines for the data and handshaking. Why? they’re balanced pairs. Just like a mic cable. They have far better noise / interference rejection than single wires, so the cables can be longer, and more importantly, unique to the Mac and therefore incompatible with PCs. Instead of the first three indicator lines, it has just one:

GPI   General Purpose Input

This gets nuts very quickly when trying to use these ports to connect to the rest of the non-Mac world. Just as you can force a servo-balanced audio output to operate unbalanced by grounding one side, you can do the same to Mac serial outputs as long as you don’t need long lines.

The bottom line is: You need to get MOTU to give you the pinout on their unit. I suspect that you’ll find a standard Mac crossover cable will work, but if not, you can match the pinout once you know what it is.

In the meantime, wire up a standard Mac crossover and try it. I’ll bet it works.
Wire it like this:


1  —  2
2  —  1
3  —  5
4  —  4
5  —  3
6  —  8
7  —  7
8  —  6
Shield  —  shield


Final notes:

1) Ground goes to ground, naturally.
2) the extra wires in the cable are just that - extra wires.
3) What the hell is a straight-through cable for then? Simple… one-way communications, where one transmitting device is connected to a receiver. This gets confusing in Mac-land  because they were known to work sometimes for printers (one-way communications, remember?) even though they were out-of-spec.
4) The GPI is where you input a MIDI clock signal from your serial MIDI interface.

I’m out of time, gotta get back to work. I hope this helps.

I see that while i was writing this, you found a cable that should work… I agree - it should.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 04:26:55 PM by GaryN »

Offline part12studios

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Re: where can i find a 8 pin (round) modem cable?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 05:18:53 AM »
ok i found a cable that works!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Din-Minidin-8-Pin-Serial-Crossover-Cable-Mac-TX-RX-/231977425398?hash=item3602ee99f6:g:99kAAOxykUZTjJdS

so in freemidi you just have to connect the units.. turn them on..  freemidi sees the usb device..  do a scan in the software and the 1-8 becomes 1-16! 

Thanks for everyone's help!

Sincerely,
Caleb