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[Apfel]

Hello,

I had copied OS 9.1 from my iMac G3 DV to my PowerMac G4 "AGP". (I have the orange iMac disc with 9.0.4). Then I tried to update 9.1 with my white OS 9.2.1 Update CD.
After I had done this, the PowerMac got stuck after having loaded the desktop, if I had either a ATI 9200 AGP (flashed) or a 9200 PCI in it, when "ATI Video Accelerator" was activated in system extensions. The ATI Rage 128 did fine.
When I disable "ATI Video Accel." either in the extensions folder OR via esc+option+apple key, the desktop is accessable again. But(!), if I then start "Eight Legged Freaks", the game would freeze at "Initaializing" after the start screen.
So, I deleted 9.2.1 and installed 9.1 again. The "ATI Video Accelerator" is in the extensions folder but its ATI symbol is not there it is just an icon of a plugin/extension. Cro-Mag Ralley and Bugdom now warn me that there is no 3D hardware acceleration supported (though the 9200 has it). On my iMac G3 DV with the underpowered ATI Rage 128 the games work. (Bugdom is playable on the G4, Cro-Mag is not even like stop motion, just worse).

I have a Sonnet 1,2GHz 7455 CPU installed.

Someone told me, that you have to have the original install grey install discs, so that OS 9 works. It is to long ago since I last worked with OS 9, but wasn't OS 9 the easiest System back then and it was totally ok to just backup your System by drag and drop?

Also, the Updates are gone from Apples Website. I have a 9.2.1 from there, I downloaded long ago, but that won't work either, same as the white original Update-CD I have.
Note: I need the regional update, because my 9.0.4 is german.

Thanks in advance!

[MacTron]

First of all, make sure you have installed the latest version of Ati drivers for Mac Os 9.
For 3D on Raden 8500,9000,9200... "8500 3D Accelerator" is needed and the last vesion is 7.1.0

[supernova777]

tbh i dont think those accellerators work with the 9200 model at all. i think its only for 8500 which was a more professional level card.. (despite the number being lower)

http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=22&card2=69

visit this link to see the 8500 vs the 9200

according to this info the 9200 has a rv280 different GPU chip then the 8500 which has rv200
which is probably causing problems....
ibeleive your problems may be related to not using the 9.2.2 image that was designed for the last level of os9 macs
such as the mdd 1.25ghz etc

heres what i suggest:
i suggest u do a clean wipe of your drive
i suggest u then install osx tiger 10.4 if u have the install disc..
during the install partition the harddrive in 2.. 1 for os9 and 1 for osx (u pick the size appropriate to what you need for both)
after osx is installed. go to macintoshgarden.org and find a download os9general.dmg  i forget where i got this frm but this was the original
9.2.2 install that works with the mdd and will have the most updated drivers for both radeon + nvidia graphics cards .. drivers that were not released
as stand alone install packages.. (im pretty sure)
then once you get this os9general.dmg u restore this to your other partition and when its done
u simply boot from this partition and u have a fresh fully updated os9.2.2 install with all drivers you need!

let us know how it goes.. ill try to post a link to os9general.dmg
if not i can upload it for you!

[supernova777]

before u do all that tho check these drivers:
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/

on the page it gives the link:
 ATI OS 9 Mac Software Update January 2005
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ATI_Radeon_Retail_Installer/ati-retail-9-2-2-jan2005.hqx

this might solve your problems

[supernova777]

Requirements:
 

[MacTron]

according to this info the 9200 has a rv280 different GPU chip then the 8500 which has rv200
which is probably causing problems....

All the rv2x0 family uses the same drivers. In fact I've used −for years, and without problems− the 9200 drivers in macs with 8500 and 9000PRO because are the most updated.
In all this cards the 3D driver is allways  "ATI 8500 3D Accelerator".
But the drivers included at least in Mac os 9.2 are well known to be buggy.

[MacTron]

But the drivers included at least in Mac os 9.2 are well known to be buggy.

Even those included in os9general.dmg for the MDD.
Even more, I used an oficial localized version more updated than this avaliable in Macintosh Garden and the ATI drivers are buggy too.

So first of all upgrade the drivers with the links provided by supernova777.

[supernova777]

check out this page maybe? i didnt read in detail but here:

http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-922-1021-power-macintosh-g4-mirrored-drive-doors-mdd

[Apfel]

Sorry, I answer this late, was busy...


So, let's see, if I got you guys right:

1. The reason why you suggest the MDD-FW400 9.2.2, because it is the latest (2003), which would also have the latest drivers.
- This means you do not need the machine specific install (like it was with the grey discs of the era from 2003-2006), right?

2. Secondly, there is a latest ATI 8500/9000/9200 driver by ATI, which was released 2005, which would be better than the drivers included with the MDD install.

Side note: I allready used this exact ATI update from the link above, before I started this thread, but I did have the 9200 allready installed. Also there is no extension/Plugin that is called "ATI 8500 accelerator" after I had run the installer under 9.2.1.
---> solution: I would have to put the ATI 128 back in and then install ATI 8500 accelerator (January 2005). Right?

3. you recommend me to not update my 9.0.4 through 9.1 through 9.2.1 to 9.2.2, but instead better directly install the MDD-FW400 9.2.2, right? (which would then be

4. the regional problem: if I want german, I should be able to use my iMac G3 install discs (since all OS 9 work on all Macs), than use the 9.1 image from the apple page, then use the white 9.2.1 update CD and then use the 9.2.2 update I got from a user over at cubeuser.de (all are german.
Than install the ATI 2005 driver. Then swap out the ATI 128 card and install the 9200 card.

5. the macintoshgarden link says under "Bootable Image for PowerMac MDD"

9.0 runs fine on Sheepshaver (and can be updated to 9.0.4) but 9.1, 9.2.1, and 9.2.2 won't. For G4 AGP install, it has the special build of Mac OS specifically designed for the G4 AGP Graphics and will not boot in other G4 models.

What does that mean? That AGP-G4s need their own 9.0.4 and so I can't use my iMac discs?

6. Using the MDD install, would be equal to using the Quicksilver 9.2.2-CD (which did not make the 9200 work), after completely wiping the disc and running the installer successfully, right? So mistake I made was, to not keep the ATI 128 and first install the ATI 2005 drivers and THEN install the 9200 card, right?

Thank you very much!!!

I will try the next days.

[supernova777]

http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/os/OS9General.zip
 

heres the image i was speaking about.. yes i simply suggested this as the fastest way to get fully patched up to 9.2.2 
without trying to painstakingly find certain specific updates as it can be hard to find the updates now

[Apfel]

Thank you!

I think the general OS 9 alone (which is from a MDD-FW400 and will be bootable for all G3 and G4, despite the MDD-FW800) will not solve the problem. First and foremost thing I have to do is:
FIRST install the ATI Rage 128 Pro, again.

Since it says so in the ATI note, right?

Requirements:
 

[Apfel]

according to this info the 9200 has a rv280 different GPU chip then the 8500 which has rv200
which is probably causing problems....

All the rv2x0 family uses the same drivers. In fact I've used −for years, and without problems− the 9200 drivers in macs with 8500 and 9000PRO because are the most updated.
In all this cards the 3D driver is allways  "ATI 8500 3D Accelerator".
But the drivers included at least in Mac os 9.2 are well known to be buggy.

!!!! In the 2005 ATI driver update the file is afterwards seen as "ATI graphics accelerator" in the extensions folder, if I am correct! (See Link on the hungarian site)
Or are we talking about something different?

[Knezzen]

I had some problems like this back in the day on my "Sawtooth" G4 before I updated the firmware to the newest version (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126).

My Sonnet Encore/ST 1.2ghz would not boot OS 9.1 at all, only 9.2.x.
Don't know if this apply's to your G4 as well. I'd say you have to go for 9.2.2 if you have a Sonnet CPU in order to make it stable. I had an Apple Radeon 9000 Pro with an ADC port in that machine.

[Apfel]

Thanks,

Updating the Macs own Firmware to 4.2.8 was the first I did, when I got it a long time ago.

You are right, the Sonnet could be the problem, which is why I got to the plan, that I now will install the orginal 500MHz CPU again + the ATI Rage 128 and then install the 9200 drivers and then put the Sonnet CPU and the 9200 back in.

I allready had an install of 9.2.2 froma Quicksilver on this machine and the Sonnet CPU still had the graphics problems, so I guess it is still something about the ATI drivers. The 1,2GHz Sonnet should work nevertheless then... well, maybe.

Also, the Sonnet FAQs say that the 1,2GHz supports 9.2.2, but the Sonnet Dual 1,8GHz, which I have to does not. A Tech at Sonet told me I had to remove a certain file in the OS X Libary folder and then the Dual 1,8GHz (7447) would work as well. Unfortunately I did not find the file.

I will try some things this afternoon and report back!

Does anyone know, whether the AGP/Sawtooth G4 needs another 9.0.4 to start with, than the other models or is that only a sheepeshaver restrictions (which I am not using btw.)?

[supernova777]

honestly i never had any problems like this...
are u sure its not the 9200 itself?
i would just buy a radeon 8500 cheap and be done with it
its got the best support from what i have seen..

[Apfel]

Well, the problem appears with two 9200 samples. The AGP (flashed) one and the PCI (retail) one.

So, it might not be the card, that is faulty, but it might be a compatibility issue of all 9200 cards or a problem with the driver, I would guess.

A question: can one of the native speakers here interpret the sentence above with the sheepshaver note, please? Does it only make a restriction for using sheepshaver OR does it say, that AGP-G4s generally need their own 9.0.4, even, if you use it natively without sheepshaver?

[Knezzen]

To make sure you have everything right, I think the best thing to do is wipe the drive and install 9.2.2.
I don't really get why you should use 9.0.4 or 9.2.1. Install the latest and greatest!

When you're done, go to the extensions control panel and choose "Mac OS Base". Click the "duplicate" button and save as "Test" or something like that. Reboot and install the updated ATi Drivers. If it's still the same, I'd say it's a serious hardware problem as pre-OSX is pretty forgiving on bad hardware in general. Get an other graphicscard (Radeon 9000 or 8500 for instance) or buy an MDD for allmost nothing

EDIT:
Seen this and tried it? Have to be used with the 2005 ATi update for OS9 http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#9200rom

Radeon 9200 users:
This installer contains not the latest ATI ROM Xtender version! Jump here and update it: Radeon 9200 ROM Hotfix OS9

This driver almost the same as the ATI RADEON 9200 Mac Edition July 2004 driver but contains the "OpenGLRendererATI 1.3.5" extension also.

This installer has no "ATI Displays" control panel so you should use this driver as update (exclude the Radeon 9200, that is not supported by the ATI Displays control panel).

Have you tried zapping your PRAM? There can be some corrupt data there. Press and hold Command+Option+P+R when booting. Have you used the Cuda button on your motherboard to the reset it? When I had a 1.2ghz Encore/ST in my GBE, it would sometimes make some strange things happen. Zapping the PRAM and reseting the motherboard with the Cuda button would fix these issues. Try this before wiping the disk and installing a fresh 9.2.2 as I mentioned above.

Cuda instructions: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1939

[supernova777]

Well, the problem appears with two 9200 samples. The AGP (flashed) one and the PCI (retail) one.

So, it might not be the card, that is faulty, but it might be a compatibility issue of all 9200 cards or a problem with the driver, I would guess.

A question: can one of the native speakers here interpret the sentence above with the sheepshaver note, please? Does it only make a restriction for using sheepshaver OR does it say, that AGP-G4s generally need their own 9.0.4, even, if you use it natively without sheepshaver?

i would say the driver is expecting the 9200 to be on the AGP bus, so to me it seems like a problem of the wrong ROM or ROM size flashed into the card, the pci version maybe use using a driver thats trying to reference the card on the AGP connection? are u leaving both of them in at the same time also?? did u flash the 9200 on a mac or on a pc
because i had problems when i tried to flash on a mac and then i flashed on a pc using the right rom and all was good .. mind u im talking about a 9800 that i flashed.. not a 9200. but i would assume the same things are involved. ie: HOW its flashed (pc vs mac), WHAT its flashed with (correct rom)

re: 9.0.4 thats just a sheepshaver limitation for some reason and has nothing to do with if u are running os9 natively in a powerpc mac!

personally the 9200 is not the card u want to run anyway . an 8500 performs much better and can be bought for cheap if you look!
i would use an 8500 or a 9000 card or a geforce 4mx..

the 9200 pci is supposedly the best card for a powermac g3 tho.. but i have no experience with it..
i would remove the flashed card to ensure the agp card isnt somehow causing the problem with the pci one

focus on trying to get the 9200 pci retail to function.. PERHAPS it only functions well on a pci only mac (b&w g3, yikes g4)

either way, if u had a radeon 8500 or 9000 u wont have this problem at all. i almost guarantee u that!

[supernova777]

To make sure you have everything right, I think the best thing to do is wipe the drive and install 9.2.2.
I don't really get why you should use 9.0.4 or 9.2.1. Install the latest and greatest!

When you're done, go to the extensions control panel and choose "Mac OS Base". Click the "duplicate" button and save as "Test" or something like that. Reboot and install the updated ATi Drivers. If it's still the same, I'd say it's a serious hardware problem as pre-OSX is pretty forgiving on bad hardware in general. Get an other graphicscard (Radeon 9000 or 8500 for instance) or buy an MDD for allmost nothing

if u install the os9general.zip thats up for dl on the site it has nvidia + radeon ati drivers already installed
no need to even worry about this

[Apfel]

Sorry, for coming so late to say thank you for all your input and ask further questions.

To make sure you have everything right, I think the best thing to do is wipe the drive and install 9.2.2.
I don't really get why you should use 9.0.4 or 9.2.1. Install the latest and greatest!

Because I want my personal stuff and preferences as they are on my iMac G3 DV, where 9.0.4 was first and then around 2002 was updated to 9.1 and worked great since then. AND I would prefer having it in German, so I use the 9.2.1 and 9.2.2 Images to update my existing 9.1 install.
I thought drag and drop would just work (dragging 9.1 from the iMac to the PowerMac). Maybe there was something that got wrong.
I already tried using an all ready 9.2.2 install from a Quicksilver CD (not Update). Didn't work as well.
Fact is: the games that said there was something wrong with 3D or Hardware acceleration do not say something under 9.1 and the ATI Rage 128 Pro installed.

I now tried updating 9.1 again with the ATI 128 still installed.
1. tried with original Apple CD (white) 9.2.1 Update. Error message "Big System morsel" could not be read or something like that it said.
2. opened the .smi file of a german 9.2.1-update donwload under 10.4 (on HDD-1) and got a virtual install drive, so I saved the content of that virtual drive to a folder on HDD-1 under 10.4. Then I bootet into 9.1 (sitting on HDD-2 with 10.2 together on one partition and 10.5 on another) and started the Installer from the folder on HDD-1.
Everything ran good and said I now have to restart after successful update. I did.
I got the smiling face and the startup items at the bottom but than the bomb-message appeared and said there was something wrong with "PrefRestoreInit" error: -1101. "Please deactivate system extension by holding down option key". I did. but I just got the start volumes to choose from.
Choosing OS9 resulted in the same error message.

I then booted into 10.4 and manually put all extensions into the "extensions off" folder.
Now OS 9.2.1 started fully, but said it would like to run the filesharing assistent, but can't find the lib. So I disabled filesharing again.
Restart.
Message disappeared.
Started Cro-Mag Ralley and got told which extensions are to be switched to "on". I did bit by bit and restarted everytime. Now it tells me it needs one, that I can't find.

Before I use the OS-9-general install as described by you all. I will do a last test:
- put out all extension cards
- swap Sonnet CPU for 500MHz stock CPU
- use fresh drive with nothing on it. format it including OS 9 drivers.
- install 9.1 from the iMac by drag and drop
then:
A) use germanOS9.2.1Update.smi file (which was saved from/off the official Apple website) (do I have to do something special like create a bootable backup or something? The funny thing is you can't open the .smi file under OS9, so I will have to unpack it on a OS X computer that is connected via Firewire) and try if I get further
B) if A doesn't work, I use a fresh 9.0.4 and then again try to apply all German updates (9.1 included).
C) if that does not work I will use the OS9general.zip and afterwards install the ATI drivers.

When you're done, go to the extensions control panel and choose "Mac OS Base". Click the "duplicate" button and save as "Test" or something like that. Reboot and install the updated ATi Drivers. If it's still the same, I'd say it's a serious hardware problem as pre-OSX is pretty forgiving on bad hardware in general. Get an other graphicscard (Radeon 9000 or 8500 for instance) or buy an MDD for allmost nothing

EDIT:
Seen this and tried it? Have to be used with the 2005 ATi update for OS9 http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#9200rom

Radeon 9200 users:
This installer contains not the latest ATI ROM Xtender version! Jump here and update it: Radeon 9200 ROM Hotfix OS9

This driver almost the same as the ATI RADEON 9200 Mac Edition July 2004 driver but contains the "OpenGLRendererATI 1.3.5" extension also.

This installer has no "ATI Displays" control panel so you should use this driver as update (exclude the Radeon 9200, that is not supported by the ATI Displays control panel).

Well, I did jump to hotfix, and used the 2005 update. But the above "use that as update" means I have to first install the 2004 drivers and then the 2005 drivers??? Please comment.

Have you tried zapping your PRAM? There can be some corrupt data there. Press and hold Command+Option+P+R when booting. Have you used the Cuda button on your motherboard to the reset it? When I had a 1.2ghz Encore/ST in my GBE, it would sometimes make some strange things happen. Zapping the PRAM and reseting the motherboard with the Cuda button would fix these issues. Try this before wiping the disk and installing a fresh 9.2.2 as I mentioned above.

Cuda instructions: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1939

I did press the small tiny button on the logic board before I started the thread here. Did not try cmd+opt+p+r (I forgot that I could try that).
Unfortunately now it is too late, since I have done another install try.