2TB-4TB eSata

[SonikArchitects]

Hey guys!

Anyone successfully formatted a 4TB eSata (internal or external w/card) into 2, 2TB (or 1. partitions? If yes 1. How and 2. How did you get the mac to see a 4TB drive? I have 2, 2TB's on an internal bus that work perfect but trying to connect a 4TB I can only format it as 2 1TB "drives".

Any help appreciated!
Thanks 
_BT

[supernova777]

which sata card are you using?
i personally wouldnt even attempt what you are doing.
thats why i have an AFP fileserver that runs on PC hardware.. and serves up my files in mac Apple Filing Protocol (with native support for resource forks etc)
gigabit ethernet isnt much slower then sata150.. !!!!

by internal bus, you mean the ATA-100 of the mdd?

[IIO]

if you want it to use with OS9, you should make 8 partitions of 500gb each.

[IIO]

oh sorry, your question was about how.

i´ve never used eSATA, but as for SATA disks i always use OSX´apple disk utility, also for OS9 machines.

[MacTron]

There is some info about this on the internet, but it is usually confusing...
According to this official Apple info:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21924

With your (two) 2TB hard disk may be you have reached the *volume* size limit. Even though you can install up to 21 of them! LOL
Using a 4TB Hard Disk in Mac Os 9 is an unexplored territory...
Despite the Apple official info, I'll suggest you (if you haven't tried yet) to format and make the two 2Tb partitions with Mac Os X,  to check if Mac Os 9 can see them both.

[DieHard]

On Large Audio Volumes, it might pay to initialize Volumes as "Mac OS Standard" since when using Audio files (that are big in nature), it is beneficial to have a larger "Block size" upon volume initialization. Let me explain...

Since audio files are large... a block size of 64K (like under Mac OS Standard) would be preferred over a block size of 4K (like Mac OS Extended) with all volumes over 4 GB in size that will store audio files. The default bock sizes are directly proportional to the volume size and they differ greatly between Mac OS Standard and Mac OS extended.

Under Mac OS Standard we are limited to 65 Thousand files (assuming most are Audio, this might be OK) per volume. A small block size is STORAGE efficient, but not System efficient.  The larger the block size, the smaller the number of blocks the system has to track and load in memory and this is a huge benefit, and thus much more efficient in terms of the NUMBER of blocks needed to store a file.  Do you really care if at the end of an audio file that you waste 64K of disk space ? It is miniscule; if you need to store 2 billion text files of 2K in size, then the clear answer is Mac OS extended, Number of files goes up to 4 Billion plus per volume and much more disk efficient.

Maybe a good approach would be to make as many 190GB Volumes, each Mac OS Standard for the volumes that will have Audio recordings and making the one that will store samples and OS Files Mac OS extended.  I personally never tried this, but it is worth testing out

- Diehard

*** UPDATED ****

The assumption of this post was that the system was going to be an "OS 9" Only System and that the actual hard drives would be 2 TB or less (NOT 4 TB)... damn, even my Mac Pro raid card peaks at 2 TB drives; Chris explains below some great choices if you want to move the storage out on the Network (although eSATA would obviously be a much faster) or if you want a dual OS X & OS 9 environment on the same system (which Diehard still frowns upon...lol). At any rate... a Pure OS 9 system with many volumes for large drives has been a solid proven environment.  The variable we need to test is the max size the OS 9 drive setup or "Hard Disk Speed Tools" initialize will go (most likely 2 TB).  I am very interested in any results of a Pure OS 9 environment with drives above 500GB that are partitioned and working 

[SonikArchitects]

Hey guys! Thanks for all the info. Thanks for the link MacTron and that is great to know about standard vs extended DieHard. You guys rock. Okay so I am using this: Sonnet - Tempo Serial ATA PCI Card. I'm using it is slot 5 of a MMD. I've "extended" it's reach with a cheap (Amazon 15$) back plate (it's not actually a card) that connects port 2 of my Sonnet to a socket that I can plug an outside drive to. Hope this makes sense. Basically sonnet port 2 to a socket (eSata female) and a cable (eSata male to male) to the 4TB drive. It'd be the same thing as what is happening on port 1 of the sonnet except that terminates in an internally mounted 2TB bare drive. It fucking rules on the internal bus. Faster than anything I've ever seen in OS9 and amazing for working with all my old sessions etc. If you have not tried this I highly recommend it.

What I (think) I need is a formatting application that lets me see the full 4TB drive. I imagine it's actually 2 x 2TB drives and there in may lie the problem. I digress. So if there is a formatting application for OS9 that lets me see the full drive, I can then partition into probably 2 x 1.8 TB drives and rock and roll.

What I have tried :

Formatting using Apples Disk application. It will allow me ONLY to make 1 1TB partition or 2 1TB partitions. I've also tried formatting it on OSX (1 1TB, 2 1TB, 2 2TB) and in none of those incarnations will it see it in OS9. It says "not initialized".

Thanks for the thoughts, any help appreciated!
Best,
_BT

[IIO]

i am not asking why you dont just put the second HD into the MDD

but i would like to discuss if there maybe is problem using an esata connector for sata.

or in other words: why dont you use a normal sata cable to connect the disk?

and finally ... please note that SATA officially only supports 1 meter cable lenght. this remains true when using an esata adaptor ...

[supernova777]

esata is the 100% the same as internal sata. thats why it kicks so much ass;)

but hey, BT!
i think there may be a chance you have forgotten to change the type of partition map its using

GPT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table
if its partitioned in the GUID partition map, this drive is only bootable with intel pcs / macs / EFIbios machines

MBR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_boot_record
if its partitioned in the MBR partition map, this drive is only bootable with windows machines

APM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Partition_Map
is what is needed to be formatted 100% compatible with os9.. this probably slipped by you as all new harddrives these days are
shipped with GUID partition map type..

even tho u have changed the size of the partition map it doesnt change the type unless u specify this in the hidden menus or command switches
in mac os X u have to click a 'customize' or 'more options' button to see this dialog (disk utility)

if the partition map is done in Apple partition map then mac os 9 + mac os x ppc should see the drive exactly the same
as well as be bootable from both.

another thing u could use is GPARTED which is a partition editor built under Ubuntu.. not sure if they would have a powerpc bootable iso of this
this was suggested to me by another use of macintoshgarden so i would think he found a downloadable cd image from somewhere
but its alot easier to just use disk utility if u have X installed.

changing the partition type under mac os 9 is impossible...
mac os 9 doesnt give u the option to change from GUID to MBR to APM unfortunately


**UPDATE
i just found this info :

LARGE 3 or 4 TERABYTE DRIVES IN YOUR G5

Apple Partition Map only allows partitions of 2.2TB. That means if you attach a 3 or 4 TB drive to your G5 it will not work properly although it might appear so. Once you fill that drive above that 2.2 TB level the drive will lose its mind. You can simply partition the large drive into multiple partitions less than the 2.2TB limit. You can use 3 or 4 TB drives in a single partition on a G5 as a DATA only drive by simply partitioning it as GUID. The GUID partition doesn't have the limitations of the Apple Partition Map setup. You will not be able to boot from the drive however.

so it could be apple partition map that is capping u at 2.2TB..
so there u go.. u can make it a 4tb drive by using GUID partition map... but that may be usefull only for X... im not sure if mac os 9 can see GUID type drives? it certainly cant boot from them, this is certain... but it may be able to use them as a data drive?

i was just about to suggest MBR, but that also caps out at 2tb

2 TB
The organization of the partition table in the MBR limits the maximum addressable storage space of a disk to 2 TB (232 × 512 bytes). Therefore, the MBR-based partitioning scheme is in the process of being superseded by the GUID Partition Table (GPT) scheme in new computers.

like the quote from headgap systems says... it will "appear to work" at first but "Once you fill that drive above that 2.2 TB level the drive will lose its mind." this is not what u want to have happen.... my advice.. dont use the 4tb drive with the g4 mac.. take it back to the store if u just bought it and get a 2tb drive.. (and take the difference u save and buy a sandwhich LOL right diehard? ) stay within the 2.2TB range.. have a bootable proper apple partition drive that is 100% compatible with the machines.. i would suspect even if u do 2 or 3 partitions.. something is bound to go realy wrong as you are going past into "unknown territory" as mactron would say.

[supernova777]

one last thing is the enclosure type itself..
many esata/fw/usb ENCLOSURES have a max drive size that they can handle, be it 1tb or 2tb or 3tb or 4tb

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7664387&CatId=2780
for example this enclosure says "supports up to 2tb" alot of them will have this limitation

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Icy%20Dock/MB662U32S/
this one says it supports up to 6TB for each drive

u get the idea
u can easily connect the drive directly to the card to avoid this tho..
and put one of the 2tb as the external (swap them)
if it turns out your enclosure doesnt support 4tb drives

[supernova777]

honestly tho..
the best advice is
to just keep the 4tb drive in a intel base mac or pc...
swap the 4tb with another computer's 2tb drive..and only buy/use 1-2tb drives with the g4 macs..
its always better to stay within the 100% compatible area.. to avoid problems
because its not worth the hassle of having something go wrong later.

if u need more then 2tb in one place..
use an AFP file server powered by Freenas or Nas4Free on pc hardware ,
or an intel mac os x machine (10.4-10.7) with AFP filesharing
or a ppc intel mac os xmachine with AFP filesharing..

AFP is the bomb!
you cant beat it for mac os 9.. mounts via "Chooser" same as a local drive, on your desktop, integrated with finder...
once u try this.. u will see esata drive as "Redundant" unless you need to take large amounts of data on the go with you
(Which may very well be the case for you..?)

i think alot of us here on this site forget that mac os x was originally *MADE TO BE A SERVER FOR OS 9 CLIENTS!!*
so you can use "X only" hardware, enable AFP file sharing over a gigabit ethernet network.. and there you go.. now that hardware
is working for you in mac os 9.. just set up your AFP Filesharing + there you go..

but using it with PC hardware. with the freenas + nas4free packages.. allows u to use the largest hard drives possible + have data
redundancy + fast disk access.. its seriously win, any motherboard with 4gb-8gb ram can be used as a file server this way..

(untill knez teaches us how to create a SAN in mac os 9)

[supernova777]

apparently windows xp users have the same problem
http://superuser.com/questions/355640/easiest-way-to-use-a-2tb-internal-hard-disk-in-windows-xp-32-bit

therefore i think the following statement is true:
no operating systems prior to 2006-2007 will support GPT Guid partition tables without additional 3rd party software

the takeaway:
things get messy above 2.2TB stay below that size + you have no problems + can focus on your music instead of being forced into being your own technical support

[DieHard]

Under a pure OS 9 environment, one main issue that has been discussed in other threads is hard drive maintenance;  Any volumes above the 200GB limit may be a real hassle if they become corrupted or need of a defragmentation (audio recording volume). 

Norton Speed disk and other defragmenting (OS 9 programs) will produce "Out of RAM errors" and NOT work.  A work around suggested by some members was to create an OS X bootable DVD with a defrag utility and use that method.  Many OS 9 disk maintenance (repair file/volume issues) will also bomb on volumes greater than 190 to 200GB; so that was the original reason that I suggested all volumes be 190GB or less was because I was under the assumption that the data put on these volumes was important audio project data (or hot pics of sexy babes).

IMO huge volumes that are not repairable are not the way to go.  Most of organize our data into folders, so the additional hierarchy of Volumes seems nice and logical... a Samples Volume (190 GB should be enough for most users), Mac OS (OS & apps), Audio Projects 1, 2, 3... it does not seem unfeasible.  Remember, when you put all the eggs in one basket (or on 1 volume), don't bitch if you crack a few. 

[IIO]

my advise would be to just install OSX on any such computer with modern gear (big disks as well as other upgrades).

because if you have 2 3 TB HDs and partition then into 200mb volumes (lol) only the first 21 of the resulting 30 volumes will automatically appear on the desktop after startup.

well ok, if xou have something to hide from your wife and kids this might be exactly want you want, but if it is your audio disk that is not funny.

[DieHard]

I was thinking more like (2) 500GB or (2) 1 TB Drives... definitely NOT 3 TB drives... 10 volumes is about what I have and all works peachy... I have an SDD and (3) 500GBs in each MDD

For those with stock MDDs... try this and let us know

1TB (1000 GB) IDE 40-PIN PATA UDMA-133 Western Digital WD Caviar Greenhard disk drive

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1TB-IDE-40-PIN-PATA-UDMA-133-Western-Digital-WD-Caviar-Green-HDD-1000GB-NEW-/300913184224?pt=UK_Computing_HardDrives_RL&hash=item460fd2cde0

Damn I hate "green drives" they die early in life 

[IIO]

what i find strange is that his drive works in OSX after formatting there, but not in OS9. there is no logical reason for this, 9.2.2 shoudl support drives up to 6 TB, (10.2 up to 8, and system after 10.6 something have literally no limit.)

what is even more strange is that apple everywhere claims MacOS9 would only support volumes of 200 gb, which is definetly nonsense. this is not even true for ATA-66 controllers -  with the usual software tweaks for hi cap support you can run 250+ IDE drives just fine even in a G3.

hm?

[supernova777]

wow ok one more time

apple partition map has a limit of 2.2TB

Disks using the Apple Partition Map are divided into logical blocks, with 512 bytes usually belonging to each block. The first block, Block 0, contains an Apple-specific data structure called “Driver Descriptor Map” for the Macintosh Toolbox ROM to load driver updates and patches before loading from a MFS or HFS partition.[2] Because APM allows 32 bits worth of logical blocks, the historical size of an APM formatted disk using small blocks[3] is limited to 2 TiB.[4]

u cant format for powerpc larger then 2.2TB
MBR for pc also has a similar limit.
only GPT can format larger then 2.2TB

it is very likely that mac os 9 + lower versions of mac os X
will be unable to read GUID partitions, considering GPT came out years after the fact of
the release date of these operating systems..

collected facts from google searches
-For accessing volumes, both APM and GUID partitions can be used in a standard manner with Mac OS X 10.4 and higher
-10.3.9 will not recognize GUID partitions or ExFAT partitions
-intel mac os x computers REQUIRE GPT disk to be able to boot
-A PowerPC-based Mac can only install Mac OS X on a disk with the "Apple_partition_scheme."
-An Intel-based Mac can only install Mac OS X on a disk with the "GUID_partition_scheme." (http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1600)
-Intel-based models that came with Mac OS X Tiger or Leopard preinstalled are able to boot from both APM and GUID disks

the question to answer;
can os 9 see a GPT partitioned drive?
we know it cant boot from it.. but can it even use it as a data drive?
because if so, there is your answer..
partition the drive with the GUID partition table
and u can format it larger then 2.2TB
but if 10.3.9 cannot see GPT then the answer is most likely NO,
so inside mac os 9.. u cant have a disk larger then 2TB.
this is a limitation of the partitioning technology itself, NOT the disk controller.

[DieHard]

what is even more strange is that apple everywhere claims MacOS9 would only support volumes of 200 gb, which is definetly nonsense. this is not even true for ATA-66 controllers -  with the usual software tweaks for hi cap support you can run 250+ IDE drives just fine even in a G3.

hm?

OK... step 1... As stated above...

Norton Speed disk and other defragmenting (OS 9 programs) will produce "Out of RAM errors" and NOT work.  A work around suggested by some members was to create an OS X bootable DVD with a defrag utility and use that method.  Many OS 9 disk maintenance (repair file/volume issues) will also bomb on volumes greater than 190 to 200GB; so that was the original reason that I suggested all volumes be 190GB or less

Another side note... in theory:
Mac OS X Maximum Drive Capacity
    OS X 10.0-10.1.5, 2 TB maximum volume size
    OS X 10.2-10.2.8, 8 TB
    OS X 10.3-10.3.9, 16 TB
    OS X 10.4 and later, around 8 exabytes (8 million terabytes!)

But, remember, that is on the OS side, the actual hardware may be a different issue.  From the MacOS9 lives website...
If you intend to use hard drives larger than 128GB under OS 9, then be aware that you will need a Mac with an IDE controller that is 48-bit LBA compliant.
That would be the first hurdle, the next would be any limits imposed on the Internal IDE controllers (that are 48-bit LBA compliant) that we don't know about; or in the case of eSATA, what the PCI eSATA controller limits.

Theoretical limits mean nothing.... the hardware will take precedence...

For instance, the Apple RAID controller (in my mac Pro) limits drive size to 2 TB regardless of the Mac OS version.

[supernova777]

the chart data above posted by diehard
"Mac OS X: Mac OS Extended format (HFS Plus) volume and file limits"
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2422
thats re: the *FILESYSTEM*

but thats meaningless if the *PARTITION TABLE*
that is the parent container of that *FILESYSTEM* has its own limitation:
APM apple partition map is limited to 2.2TB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

am i invisible??

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4259534
u can create disks larger then 2.2tb with the apple raid controller
for example, making a raid from 2 x 2TB drives will give u a 4tb drive

[supernova777]

to BT:
you have 2 options bro

option a) format the disk changing the partition type to APM and bite the bullet + use the 4TB drive as a single 2TB drive

option b) return the disk exchanging it for a 2TB and do the same as option a)