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[supernova777]

destructive Audiosuite editing
bt claims that this is something that was part of logic 6.43 that did not make it to 7 And beyond
in this article:
http://usa.djmag.com/content/bt%E2%80%99s-top-5-production-toys

im guessing this is in reference to how u edit audio waveforms ?
im not quite sure what he means..

he also mentions the lexicon 200

but i will have to make due wit the psp emulation;) hehe

maybe bt himself can clear this up for me when hes back

[Knezzen]

Destructive editing destroys the audio data, writes over it, or "renders" it so to say. Non-destructive editing, like many audio applications use today, more or less sets cue points when you edit audio, so you can go back and edit files again, or remove the edits you have made.

Think of it like saving a Photoshop project in jpg format vs saving it in Photoshop's project format. If you save it in jpg you can't change any of the layers or anything else. The project file with all your edits and effects has been rendered. If you save it in .psd you can go back and edit the layers, effects etc.

And AudioSuite are the non-realtime type of rendering plugins you have in Pro Tools. Logic 6.x is the last version that supports AudioSuite plugins, and they only work in conjunction with a Pro Tools MIX or HD system. You have them in Pro Tools as well.

Look on the third menu from the left in this screenshot, and you'll see the AudioSuite plugin menu 

[supernova777]

sure but im trying to understand how this could be seen as a plus over non desctructive....
it must directly relate to some sort of benefit in workflow.. that i fail to grasp as of yet

[Knezzen]

I don't see any benefit in my workflow either. Maybe he edits audiofiles he then uses in samplers etc? Then you need to process the audiofile, and not just leave effects and cue points over it.

But, just as you, I don't see any plus other than that over non-destructive editing.

[supernova777]

yes i made the thread with the hopes that BT himself could explain further how + why he sees this as a +

[IIO]

Think of it like saving a Photoshop project in jpg format vs saving it in Photoshop's project format.

i would rather explain "destructive editing" with the difference between "save" and "save as".

[Protools5LEGuy]

Logic 6.x is the last version that supports AudioSuite plugins, and they only work in conjunction with a Pro Tools MIX or HD system. You have them in Pro Tools as well.

I have to test them on DIGI 001 and AMIII. Maybe LE users are not left behind.

I don't see any benefit in my workflow either. Maybe he edits audiofiles he then uses in samplers etc? Then you need to process the audiofile, and not just leave effects and cue points over it.

But, just as you, I don't see any plus other than that over non-destructive editing.

A benefit is the disk space. With destructive your projects do not "grow" in space in the hard disk.
I think he "knows" what he want make to a given file, and goes audiosuite to them without leaving Logic. In the PC version you can call an "external" editor for the audiotracks. I used SoundForge. For sure you can have a similar workflow using logic and calling Peak or another wave editor to "Audiosuite" your tracks in VST format.
 
You could stay in logic, save project. Open a PT audiosuite session with all the audiotracks. "Audiosuite" the tracks. Exit session. Go back Logic with the audiofiles cooked. But this brakes inspiration and workflow for sure.

[IIO]

we all live in a world of total recall and multiple undo today. i remeber a talk with dieter doepfer where he explained that it is essential for his wirkflow that he can NOT save any settings. for me it is the opposite.

[IIO]

Think of it like saving a Photoshop project in jpg format vs saving it in Photoshop's project format.

i would rather explain "destructive editing" with the difference between "save" and "save as".

when i think about it, this analogy is not perfect either. because you are often only overwriting the file partially when editing audio.

[supernova777]

http://www.audiomasterclass.com/free-eq-iii-plug-in-from-digidesign

based on what im reading on this page,

EQ III supports TDM, RTAS, and AudioSuite formats, and is available in 1-band, 4-band, and 7-band configurations for optimized CPU/DSP efficiency...

AudioSuite is a format of its own, similar to TDM or RTAS?
correct?
but wait.. RTAS stands for "Real Time Audio Suite" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Time_AudioSuite
but if they arent the same thing, this seems to indicate certainly a similarity or relationship between these two?
is AudioSuite, non-realtime perhaps?

some readng:
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=216805
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/141436-rtas-vs-audiosuite.html
http://audiotuts.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/2010/02/27/audiosuite-what-rtas-who-the-protools-plug-in-mystery-solved/
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=173793

Now RTAS plug-ins are Real Time AudioSuite plug-ins, Audiosuite plug-ins are versions of these RTAS plug-ins, but they are not real time processing. If we look back at the example of using a 4-band EQ to sweep through frequencies to find that sweet spot to either pull or push the gain in RTAS plugs, that functionality is lost in an Audiosuite plug-in. The processing is done once the user sets all the parameters and then clicks process, this will create a new version of the affected regions and replace the old un-processed ones with the newly processed ones. This is great for a reverse effect as a plug-in would potentially need a very large look ahead buffer to do that effect in real-time which means higher CPU usage, however if this is already processed the CPU wouldn’t need to do anything after the effect has been added.

Audiosuite plug-ins are great once you have found the perfect sound as you can use the RTAS plug-in to find the settings you wish to use, then you can copy those to an Audiosuite plug-in and process the regions that need processing, once this is done you can remove the RTAS plug-in and therefore remove the need for the CPU use valuable processing power on an EQ for example. I am using EQ as an example however that doesn’t mean this is limited to EQ, you can run compressors RTAS find the right settings, then process the audio using the Audiosuite plug-in and remove the RTAS recovering those CPU cycles. Virtually any RTAS plug-in can be used as an Audiosuite plug-in as long as the makers of the plug-in built the functionality into it, there are a few that don’t have this option and it’s for that reason saving as much CPU power as possible is advised.

[supernova777]

And AudioSuite are the non-realtime type of rendering plugins you have in Pro Tools. Logic 6.x is the last version that supports AudioSuite plugins, and they only work in conjunction with a Pro Tools MIX or HD system.

i guess it is a really good analogy the closest way to liken these to photoshop plugins like you said... (which are also non-realtime)
the way u would "render" an effect and have a processing bar waiting for it to complete..
i didnt understand what u meant the first time i read that.
this also brings to mind memories of using sound forge 4.0 on pc using directx plugins!

so PT LE systems dont support audiosuite? (digi 001, AudioMedia III, Mbox) ?

[DieHard]

Cubase VST 5.1 also has a "Destuctive" editor (known as the Wave Editor)

What is the Wave Editor?
The Wave editor allows you to perform edits on your audio files. This includes Cutting and Pasting real audio data and applying DSP (Digital Signal Processing) functions. In other words, it provides more direct control over the audio files than the Audio editor does. The Wave editor also provides additional tools for creating and modifying segments.

Precautions
In contrast to the Audio editor, the Wave editor makes permanent changes to your audio files, (sometimes called“destructive editing”). When you for example Paste in the Wave editor, this alters the file on disk directly, rather than just adding new segments or Events. You can Undo the last action in the Wave editor. However, you might want to experiment with different editing operations in the Wave editor, and later decide to go back to the original file. If you do, use the Duplicate File item on the File pop-up menu in the Pool to duplicate your audio files before editing them.

There are some advantages of "Destructive" editing; you have more control (in some instances) and also you preserve processing power.  You can apply an effect that you know you want and will not alter later (like a specific reverb) and thus not eat up processing power.... also you can "quieten" or remove a recording artifact (pop or click) off a wave file without having to use a noise gate (thus greater direct control). These edits can be done at the sample level which is very powerfull

[Protools5LEGuy]

so PT LE systems dont support audiosuite? (digi 001, AudioMedia III, Mbox) ?

PT LE supports Audiosuite. Just click a track to select that and look at the menu after "File"   

Some TDM only plugs let you make Audiosuite on LE (?)

[supernova777]

hey ptleguy

i said that after reading a sentence somewhere on the digi site that claimed it did not support it.. i think
which made me go "huh??"

[SonikArchitects]

Sorry it took me a hundred years to see this! I need to turn notifications on for this (awesome) site. Anybody tell me how to do this?

So, I could write a thesis on this but I'll try to keep it short.

Why do I like destructive editing. Omg let me count the ways. Here's a few. Ps I do this in current editors (both stand alone and DAWs) because I like the commitment of working in this way. That's an important word in what I'm about to explain.

1. You save DSP (this is in no order and not the most important reason to do this).
2. With time correcting, when you are done, you can take this piece of audio and use it on any system and it's sample accurate, no flams, no jitter. Flawless in any environment. Why does this matter? If you have sessions with 2,000 drum tracks, even the smallest (like in samples) of flams, inverted attack transients etc, it's disastrous.
3. I like to design sounds as I go an they make it in my final mix that way. What does that mean? Okay so before they were called "risers" I would make things like this (were talking mid-90's) buy doing something like this (PLEASE TRY THIS and add or do different things/plugins in experimenting)...

So you've got your track and a few synths/beats/bass going. Glue together a couple elements say a could keyboard parts. Next (destructively so it will not mess with the low end in your mix) high pass filter everything using s Digi 1 band eq at 150hz. Do it a couple times to emulate a FIR filter. Oh also make this a long thing lets say 16 bars.

Next fade it out exponentially about 15 times. This will leave about 1 1/2 bars out of 16 bars of audio fading out at the beginning.

Next, pull up D-Verb (a personal fav) apply a 20 second reverb to the whole thing. Destructively.

Next : reverse all the audio, again destructively

Next : Pull up speed, start at -12 (or -1200 in cents) and fade up to root pitch over 2/3's the length. Eyeball it, nothing perfect. Try a couple times and do this to taste. You can also do this selecting the first 2/3's in VeriFI and ramp up.

This will make a long (16 bar reverse reverb) that fades up in pitch over 2/3's it duration.

Next : Pull up SiFi (spl) or your favorite flanger. Apply this destructively to the whole file at a slow speed.

Next : Listen and re-do to taste (depth/speed)

Next : reverse this entire thing back again, destructively

Next : apply ANOTHER d-verb, different settings and diffusion etc also really long

Next : Reverse back

Now you have a KILLER riser. Add some panning automation for extra credit.

Finally, option cut this in logic at 16 notes. Shrink the durations, add fade in and fade out to each slice (16 per bar for 16 bars), obviously do this in options with everything selected and not by hand.

NOW!

Glue them all back together as one piece. Take this audio and in audiosuite destructively apply (your favorite) ping pong delay set to tempo.

Congratulations, you've just made a kick ass gated, tonal riser out of your own sounds.
This is how I work literally on everything.

Hope this helps.
Ps lmk if you can think of any way on earth you can do this without destructively editing.
PPSS Once this is done, it's done, you can move it around anywhere in your track, change rigs etc and it's FLAWLESS.

Sorry for typos.
Best,
_BT

[DieHard]

These edits can be done at the sample level which is very powerful

Wow, BT gave a very detailed breakdown of just how powerful destructive (direct to disk) editing can be... it is fast, precise (sample accurate), and supports a logical workflow (once you get the functions down and know the exact results of what they will do to your audio, before you run a process).  These tips are very advanced and people that use many popular DAWs of today will not really grasp these concepts where they are used to the original files/segments being un-altered and many layers of CPU DSP being applied...

So, with that being said... I must put in a disclaimer for BT... KIDS DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME... LOL; well basically I just wanted to say that it would be a good idea as mentioned in my other post to do a backup of the complete audio file BEFORE practicing these techniques.  They are for the fast and furious and will be permanent, so take a while and learn from BT... Rome was not built in a day, he has been editing like this for many years (probably almost 2 decades); so go slow with destructive editing and have backups made until you reach this level.  The end results will be very rewarding and you will have a much better understanding visually what audio effects will actually do to a waveform

[IIO]

back in the days digidesign decided to design stuff like that, because you simply did not have the CPU to run 2 reverbs.

plus, and that was reason number 2 why AS works like this; the protools app itself does not allow you to render to disk by presing a button - unlike in cubase, where that is relatively easy.

so in my opinion audiosuite plug-ins were a workaround for a design error in logic and protools and nothing more.

Why do I like destructive editing. Omg let me count the ways. Here's a few.

1.
2.
3.

this must be a misunderdstandment of the idea behind "destructive".

except when you are on a nubus mac where disk space is too low for audio, you should always be able to render your stuff without overwriting the source files IMO.

it is not a big deal to implement that in an app. keep the old file and make a new one, rename either one of them automatically, fix the link in your sequecner/player/file browser of the current project.

destructive edit as opt-in might be ok, everything else is a risk and causes more trouble during creative work involving the creation of data than anything else.

btw: i think that the introduction of "freeze" (tracks) in later DAWs resolved the contradiction between these two worlds.
freezing is what most people (who missed AS plug-ins during 1998-2005) are happily using now.
where it is properly implemented and designed, it is always non-destructive with dozens of undo steps, but you dont notice that in case you really dont care about the past.

[dr bu]

Interesting subject this. i think the word "destructive" is misleading. if i make a bad drawing and tear it apart only to make a new effort, instead of trying to make it better, am i being destructive?
not being able to go back requires a kind of courage that the development of software with unlimited undoes does not encourage.

  "In der Beschränkung zeigt sich erst der Meister".

[SonikArchitects]

back in the days digidesign decided to design stuff like that, because you simply did not have the CPU to run 2 reverbs.

I don't totally agree with this, but I doubt well ever know the exact answer. Digi did have the power to do this so it seems to me this was a creative decision. It's probably a bit of both!


plus, and that was reason number 2 why AS works like this; the protools app itself does not allow you to render to disk by presing a button - unlike in cubase, where that is relatively easy.

It does actually. It's in the sample editor. You select the plugin, set the parameters and hit render. Hence "destructive".

so in my opinion audiosuite plug-ins were a workaround for a design error in logic and protools and nothing more.

Why do I like destructive editing. Omg let me count the ways. Here's a few.

1.
2.
3.

Totally get this too, I bet you 100$ if you try what I posted above it'll change your whole life. Speaking of which, when I am done with the new studio...I plan to post a bunch of videos about OS9, Destructive editing workflow and also....drumroll....a lot of how to videos on my IBM 5150 using Sequencer plus Gold, no mouse and rocking the ass of some midi sequencing in a way that is both indescribable and unimaginable until you see it.

 

this must be a misunderdstandment of the idea behind "destructive".

Respectfully disagree. You are writing DSP over an existing audio file. This is certainly destructively editing.

except when you are on a nubus mac where disk space is too low for audio, you should always be able to render your stuff without overwriting the source files IMO.

Of course you back up your source file (I have a key command for this in logic) but you are still destructively editing the backup. I don't think I've ever (in millions of edits) ever gone back to a backup but it's good to always do!


it is not a big deal to implement that in an app. keep the old file and make a new one, rename either one of them automatically, fix the link in your sequecner/player/file browser of the current project.

Create new audiophile from region in Logic. If any of you are interested in doing what I outlined above, thats a good command to make a key command with.


destructive edit as opt-in might be ok, everything else is a risk and causes more trouble during creative work involving the creation of data than anything else.

Don't hate until you try it!


btw: i think that the introduction of "freeze" (tracks) in later DAWs resolved the contradiction between these two worlds.
freezing is what most people (who missed AS plug-ins during 1998-2005) are happily using now.
where it is properly implemented and designed, it is always non-destructive with dozens of undo steps, but you dont notice that in case you really dont care about the past.

I personally can't stand freezing as it adds an additional several steps to the process I outlined above. You have to first put the plugins on the track, next freeze it, then flatten and start again. Audiosuite you open the plugin and process.

As a hysterical asside, I just got an email from a senior Apple programer on the Logic team about a month ago and it said (quoting) "You know that feature you've been asking to be added back to Logic for about 17 years? We finally did it". So destructive editing (pulling up a plugin and processing, not freezing) is now in Logic X.

This is part of the reason Logic X is dead to me, but I digress lol.

Happy easter guys! 
_BT

[Protools5LEGuy]

Just wanted to add a PT 5 Free/LE sessions that acts as a DSP only, using 2 mono AUX tracks with 2 mono to stereo (m/s) Renaissance verb and a Enigma, both from waves. You feed with In 1 the Verb and In 2 the Nigma. That session at 128 bits is just realtime FX with no tracking inside PT. You can only use RTAS (Real Time Audio Suite) plugs in this session/method.

As a guitarist, I always want the original take untouched (un-amped) to mix it with distorted ones (Amplitube/Warp/Nigel). The clean one help earring the pick and the distorted one is for the body (sub-midsub). I want to learn your method but to keep 2 signals and blend them.