Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Mac OS 9, Hacks & Upgrades => Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware => Topic started by: ssp3 on April 01, 2024, 06:27:40 AM
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I think it's time that we share our experience using Mac Mini G4s with various displays.
I own several Dells:
1x P2212H - 22", 1920x1080 @60Hz, TN type panel ("Office grade"), VGA + DVI inputs
3x U2412M - 24", 1920x1200 @60Hz, IPS type panel ("Ultrasharp), VGA + DVI + Display Port inputs
I also have 1.25; 1.42 and 1.5 GHz Mac Minis, so, lets test them and see how they work with these displays in OS9.
All System parts from RossDarker's v9 installer.
1. P2212H + 1.25 GHz or 1.42 GHz Mini
a) Using original, Dell supplied DVI to DVI cable.
This one is very odd - on the very first cold boot, when display has been disconnected from G4 and mains for a day or so, it boots into OS9 and displays at full resolution for a few minutes. Then tiny horizontal lines appear on the display and soon thereafter it goes black. On all subsequent reboots it remains black. I have to wait another day to bring back this condition. Maybe something discharges inside the display? Some sort of PRAM?
Obviously, this way of connecting is no go. :(
b) Using "el cheapo" DVI to VGA adapter at Minis' end and original, Dell supplied VGA to VGA cable. No problems whatsoever.
Displays at full resolution (1920x1080 @60Hz). Only at start-up it shows ugly looking Mac logo at 640x480 for a moment, before switching to full resolution.
I was able to take a few screenshots when using DVI to DVI cable, before display went black, so here's the proof.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13689)
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13691)
2. P2212H + 1.5 GHz "Silent upgrade" Mini
a) Using original, Dell supplied DVI to DVI cable. Does not work. No matter what I do, it displays the message below.
b) Using DVI to VGA adapter + VGA to VGA cable - works as expected
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13693)
3. U2412M + 1.25 GHz or 1.42 GHz Mini
a) Using original, Dell supplied DVI to DVI cable - works as expected.
b) Using DVI to VGA adapter + VGA to VGA cable - works as expected
4. U2412M + 1.5 GHz "Silent upgrade" Mini
a) Using original, Dell supplied DVI to DVI cable - doesn't work, see message below.
b) Using DVI to VGA adapter + VGA to VGA cable - works as expected
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13695)
5. Sony Bravia TV, HDMI input + any of the 1.25; 1.42 or 1.5 GHz Minis
Display resolution - 1360x768 @60Hz
Using DVI to HDMI adapter at Minis' end and HDMI to HDMI cable.
All work, although I have a feeling that 1.5 GHz model hangs on boot with spinning ball more often than the others.
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I forgot to mention. If you hold the option key, when you boot the 1.5 GHz mini, at least with my 22" Dell connected to DVI, it displays everything correctly - 1920x1080. Cursor and icon sizes as they should be.
I've spent a good part of my afternoon patching things and modifying ROMs. All I can say at the moment is that it's the ATI stuff that messes things up.
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I forgot to mention. If you hold the option key, when you boot the 1.5 GHz mini, at least with my 22" Dell connected to DVI, it displays everything correctly - 1920x1080. Cursor and icon sizes as they should be.
I've spent a good part of my afternoon patching things and modifying ROMs. All I can say at the moment is that it's the ATI stuff that messes things up.
Yes, not just the "alt-boot" Boot Picker menu, but even Open Firmware looks fine in 1920x1600@60Hz, and even the Happy Mac logo when booting OS 9. The problem starts however right after the Happy Mac logo is done displaying. Of course, OS X 10.2 ~ 10.5 (and probably 10.6 alpha) all show fine, too.
It'd be awesome if that issue was solved with Mac OS 9 for the 1.5GHz mini.
Also, as per request, I'm reposting my experiences here, as well, so that information on this specific issue is not "lost" in the huge Mac mini G4 megathread:
One part of me is still not 100% sure if the following is an overall "revised" / "silent upgrade" mini issue, OR a specific 1.5GHz "Super mini" issue. In other words, I don't know for sure if the 1.33GHz mini is also affected or not. I highly suspect it is, BUT... Only someone with a 1.33GHz mini can tell us for sure.
In my case, I have a DELL U2412M, it's a 16:10 aspect ratio, 24", 1920x1200 @60Hz monitor. Used with the 1.5GHz Mac mini G4 (AKA "Super mini") model.
After using these ATI Extensions (http://"http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2408.msg47160#msg47160"), which are different from what's on both v8 and v9, I got it to recognize a lot of resolutions and frequencies, via DVI. Even 1920x1200, but only @ a frequency higher than 60Hz. But my monitor is limited to 60Hz maximum. I get a black screen if I try such higher frequencies. However, at 60Hz, I do have the option to use 1600x1200 still, which is 4:3, and it just adds some black borders to the side, but otherwise it's a pixel-native resolution that works well, as long as I configure my monitor to display everything with a 4:3 aspect ratio.
Some full-screen games automatically try to switch it to 1920x1200, though, which my Mac OS 9 can only recognize at a frequency higher than 60Hz, and so I get a black screen with them, despite what I set the resolution to. So even my manual fix is not perfect.
Using an old mid '90s CRT monitor I have, though, those ATI Extensions I mentioned lead me to get no picture.
Switching to v9's unmodified ATI drivers instead, then it "works", but only at 800 x 600 resolution, and only at 256 Colors. Some games crash when I play them like this.
Now, when I switch to v8's unmodified drivers, then it works perfectly for (almost) every resolution option it gives me, which is a lot of them! Then the same games that crashed before don't crash anymore, and I can use Millions of Colors.
I hope this helps us keep track of this issue. As you can see, short of using a 1.25GHz and 1.42GHz mini, graphics and monitors can be messy and complicated. Using precisely these 2 mini models, the issue just disappears.
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Something that had crossed my mind was the fact we’re using the NDRV from 10.3.7/10.3.6 in the extensions/ROM used in v8/v9 respectively. Now of course, the original Mac minis shipped with 10.3.7, but later models with 10.4.2. Perhaps the slightly upgraded graphics unit of the 1.5 GHz model doesn’t ‘like’ something from these versions of Panther.
Those other ATI Drivers from @whoisthisguy, who also has a 1.5 GHz model, use an NDRV from 10.3.9. Good discussion at http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4987.0
Tiger’s NDRV in Mac OS 9 looked promising, but the system hung once ATI extensions loaded. Leopard’s seemed to have issues too. If I recall, there was a reason for using Panther, but it could be something to revisit. https://github.com/elliotnunn/x-ndrv
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Model Identifier PowerMac5,1 (Cube) is set in the boot script. BUT!
G4 Cube has one VGA port and one ADC port.
Mac Mini G4 has DVI port.
Maybe this is what confuses Mini?
You could give this older ‘Quicksilver’ ROM a try on your 1.5 GHz model. There’s a little problem with the sound being loud and distorted (line out), but it’d be worth seeing if anything with the graphics changes when different combinations of the ATI drivers are used. https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2408.0;attach=5049
I gave this a go. Unfortunately, there were no changes in behavior with regards to video, and the video options.
Something that had crossed my mind was the fact we’re using the NDRV from 10.3.7/10.3.6 in the extensions/ROM used in v8/v9 respectively. Now of course, the original Mac minis shipped with 10.3.7, but later models with 10.4.2. Perhaps the slightly upgraded graphics unit of the 1.5 GHz model doesn’t ‘like’ something from these versions of Panther.
Those other ATI Drivers from @whoisthisguy, who also has a 1.5 GHz model, use an NDRV from 10.3.9. Good discussion at http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4987.0
Tiger’s NDRV in Mac OS 9 looked promising, but the system hung once ATI extensions loaded. Leopard’s seemed to have issues too. If I recall, there was a reason for using Panther, but it could be something to revisit. https://github.com/elliotnunn/x-ndrv
I tried the "ATI RockHopper2 Driver.sit" attachment (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4987.0;attach=6332) from that thread, specifically this post (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4987.msg36231#msg36231), as well as "MiniG4_ATI9200_1.01.sit" (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5009.0;attach=6339) from this related follow-up post (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5009.msg36290#msg36290). The latter one is the one I was already using to be able to use even the 4:3 resolution 1600x1200@60Hz, since v8 and v9 drivers give me no picture "out-of-range" issues. The former worked as well for me as the latter did. But neither of them allow me to use 1920x1200@60Hz (OS 9 gives me the option to use it at 76Hz, but my monitor doesn't support that).
It was a nice try, though. I also tried combining these with the "QuickSilver" ROM above, but like I said, no changes happened with that.
So basically, we have 3 video settings, so far:
1. modified ATI drivers (v8 and earlier)
2. unmodified ATI drivers (v9)
3. combination of: v8's modified ATI drivers + removal of "ATI Via Driver" + addition of @whoisthisguy's Extension (RockHopper2)
To summarize, my 1.5GHz mini:
With 1.: Works on CRTs, but not with the LCD monitor known as DELL U2412M, at least via DVI;
With 2.: Is buggy on CRTs, working only with 256 Colors at 800x600 and seemingly no acceleration, causes some 3D games to crash. Also does not work with a DELL U2412M, at least via DVI;
With 3.: Works on the DELL U2412M, at least via DVI, although 1920x1600@60Hz is not available, even though it should and even though the 1.25/1.42GHz minis can use it with v8 and I think also v9. Does not work at all on CRTs. Maybe it even crashes the OS when using a CRT?
Hearing @ssp3 on the other thread made me realize, I don't think I tested things out with the VGA port much. There's also the DisplayPort port, although I'm already using that one for something else.
After using these ATI Extensions (http://"http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2408.msg47160#msg47160"), [...]
I put a broken link. This is the correct link (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2408.msg47160#msg47160). And within that post, another 3 links are referenced, which need the following URL update:
I am running the v9 build of the Mac Mini G4 OS 9 from this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2408.1050.html
The base set of extensions comes from this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4277.msg29392.html#msg29392
and the modified RockHopper driver comes from this thread:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5009.0.html
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This whole ATI Drivers thing is one big mess.
Nothing is documented in one place, there are intermediate versions uploaded here and there and and and.. I hate to do the detective work!
Once upon a time iMic took OS9 ATI Driver Update (driver extension), extracted Via NDRV from OS X Panther, replaced the Data fork of ATI Driver Update with the driver from Panther, made changes to several Resources and so the ATI Via Driver for his iBook. was born.
At some point later darthnVader extracted RockHopper NDRV from 10.3.7 and replaced the Data fork of iMic's ATI Via Driver with it.
He changed a value in cfrg Resource, leaving everything else, including names, in place.
This then became the RockHopper driver called ATI Via Driver for G4 Mac Mini..
darthnVader also modified several other ATI extensions with correct device IDs (5962), making sure that the chipset is recognized.
It's all described here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4650.msg33543#msg33543
The same RockHopper NDRV from 10.3.7 is integrated into Mac OS ROM that ELN made and RossDarker put on v9 disc image.
That driver is in ELN's GitHub repository and is called "ATY,RockHopper2-1.0.1f63-20040916.133447.pef"
Then, in May 2019, whoisthisguy took the Merlin NDRV from 10.3.9 (?) and placed it in ATI Via Driver , but this time renamed it to ATI RockHopper2 Driver.
There are two versions of this ATI RockHopper2 Driver out there:
* "ATI RockHopper2 Driver.sit" gets you earlier version from 26th May.
* "MiniG4_ATI9200_1.01.sit" is version from 27th May with "cosmetic" changes to several Resources.
Data forks (NDRV part) of both of these are identical, they both work in the same way.
So, to summarize:
ATI Via Driver is in fact real RockHopper driver.
ATI RockHopper2 Driver is Merlin driver masqueraded as RockHopper.
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Yanked the v9 ROM file from System folder and replaced it with v8 ROM.
All furher tests will be conducted using this ROM and minimal set of darthnVader's modified ATI extensions plus ATI Via Driver or ATI RockHopper2 Driver (RockHopper / Merlin) or none of the above.
Dell 22" P2212H + 1.5 GHz Mini
Native display resolution - 1920 x 1080 @60Hz (16:9)
1. DVI to VGA, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - black screen.
2. DVI to VGA, no driver - 800 x 600, no acceleration.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13708)
3. DVI to VGA, ATI Via Driver - max resolution, acceleration works.
Note that display is recognized correctly as Dell P2212H
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13710)
4. DVI to DVI, ATI Via Driver - black screen. Similar to my test with v9 ROM in the first post.
5. DVI to DVI, no driver - 1920 x 1080, no acceleration. Display is recognized as Color LCD.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13712)
6. DVI to DVI, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - max resolution, acceleration works.
Display is recognized as VGA (!) despite being connected over DVI. I think, this is because of Merlin code.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13714)
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Great thread guys. I just upgraded 3 Mac mini G4s to SSDs, 1GB RAM, and installed the stock v9 Mac OS 9.2.2.
The 1.25 Ghz one I installed had no issues at 1920x1080 on my Dell 4K S2722QC.
The 1.33 Ghz and 1.5 Ghz will be big pixeled/blurry in a weird way on that monitor at 1920x1080 @60 Hz to the point of basically unusable but are fine at 1024 x 768 @ 60 Hz.
So to the poster earlier in the thread, I can confirm the 1.33 seems to have similar issues to the 1.5.
I just bought a lot of 13 of these and plan to do similar upgrades on all of them (and probably sell them) so I am happy to test some potential upgraded drivers/fixes.
I should mention I am using a DVI to HDMI cable. When I tried a DVI to HDMI adapter from a no-name brand I got intermittent black screens/flickering.
By the way thanks to the folks who worked on the Mac OS 9 hack for these machines. They are the ultimate Mac OS 9 machines...
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The 1.25 Ghz one I installed had no issues at 1920x1080 on my Dell 4K S2722QC.
The 1.33 Ghz and 1.5 Ghz will be big pixeled/blurry in a weird way on that monitor at 1920x1080 @60 Hz to the point of basically unusable but are fine at 1024 x 768 @ 60 Hz.
So to the poster earlier in the thread, I can confirm the 1.33 seems to have similar issues to the 1.5.
There we go! One report on the 1.33GHz model over this subject. If this is the case, then the problem arises indeed because of the Mac mini G4 firmware that is ever-so-slightly different between the PowerMac10,1 (1.25GHz / 1.42GHz) and PowerMac10,2 (1.33GHz / 1.5GHz) models. It is not an oddity coming from the bigger VRAM in the 1.5GHz model or something.
I do know of one immediate theoretical solution for the "silent upgrade" minis: use the Mac mini ROM (the actual ROM, the New World ROM inside the ROM chip inside the physical device) of the earlier models to flash them exactly as is on the "silent upgrade" models. Some side-effects though would be things like identical serial numbers between minis. I also don't know if the 1.5GHz model would get downgraded to only 32MB of utilizable VRAM, but that won't apply to the 1.33GHz models.
Ideally, though, we don't want to take the flashing route... If we can patch up the Mac OS ROM file so that the existing v8 / v9 solutions can otherwise work for those minis, that would be ideal. It also would make @RossDarker's ASR plans of forking files depending on the model possible. (Worst case scenario, though, we could have 2 different CDs, one per model type.)
@ssp3 I know it's a different monitor, but even in your last screenshot I see the 1920x1200 resolution being available, but only at 76Hz. That is precisely why I can't use that resolution on the DELL U2412M, since it needs to run at 60Hz instead (and maybe 61Hz, but I'm not sure). If only we could somehow "hack a new entry in", at 60Hz instead...
I know we are talking of only the video issues here, but we also have NVRAM issues on these models. So sooner or later, we might want to look into the existing v8/v9 Mac OS ROM, and try to address those problems also...
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@ssp3 I know it's a different monitor, but even in your last screenshot I see the 1920x1200 resolution being available, but only at 76Hz. That is precisely why I can't use that resolution on the DELL U2412M, since it needs to run at 60Hz instead (and maybe 61Hz, but I'm not sure).
Hang on there, I'm not Speedy Gonzales ;D
If you read my first post, you will see that I have three of those (my workhorse displays). Tests are done, I just didn't have time to publish them.
If we can patch up the Mac OS ROM file so that the existing v8 / v9 solutions can otherwise work for those minis, that would be ideal.
I've already tried to apply various changes to v9 ROM and made about 10 different versions. No luck.
When it comes to graphic oddities, I think it's the issue with less than ideal ATI driver for displays with high-ish resolutions by OS9 standards.
Speaking of v9 ROM...
I posted this to the long Mini thread half a year ago, but got zero response. Needless to say that v8 ROM has no duplicate lines.
A question to creators of ROM file for Mac Mini or those in the know: why are there two instances of 'PowerMac10,1 PowerMac10,2' and several other duplicate lines in the boot script in ROM file? Was it done on purpose? If so, why?
<COMPATIBLE>
PowerMac10,1 PowerMac10,2 PowerMac10,1 PowerMac10,2 MacRISC
</COMPATIBLE>
\ Hacks for Mac mini, should not affect other machines
" /" select-dev " model" active-package get-package-property 0= if
decode-string 2swap 2drop 2dup " PowerMac10,1" $= -rot " PowerMac10,2" $= or if
\ Pretend to be a Power Mac G4 Cube
" /" select-dev
" PowerMac5,1" encode-string 2dup
" model" property
" MacRISC" encode-string encode+
" MacRISC2" encode-string encode+
" Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+
" compatible" property
device-end
\ Pretend to have a PowerPC 7445/55, actual PVR unaffected
" /cpus/PowerPC,G4@0" select-dev
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
device-end
\ Set prim-info (for PwrMgr v2 in NativePowerMgrLib)
" via-pmu/power-mgt" select-dev
000000ff encode-int
0000002c encode-int encode+
00030d40 encode-int encode+
0001e705 encode-int encode+ \ public features
00001400 encode-int encode+ \ private features
00000000 encode-int encode+
0000260d encode-int encode+
46000270 encode-int encode+
" prim-info" property
device-end
then
then \ End of mini hacks
\ Hacks for Mac mini, should not affect other machines
" /" select-dev " model" active-package get-package-property 0= if
decode-string 2swap 2drop 2dup " PowerMac10,1" $= -rot " PowerMac10,2" $= or if
\ Pretend to be a Power Mac G4 Cube
" /" select-dev
" PowerMac5,1" encode-string 2dup
" model" property
" MacRISC" encode-string encode+
" MacRISC2" encode-string encode+
" Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+
" compatible" property
device-end
\ Pretend to have a PowerPC 7445/55, actual PVR unaffected
" /cpus/PowerPC,G4@0" select-dev
80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property
device-end
\ Set prim-info (for PwrMgr v2 in NativePowerMgrLib)
" via-pmu/power-mgt" select-dev
000000ff encode-int
0000002c encode-int encode+
00030d40 encode-int encode+
0001e705 encode-int encode+ \ public features
00001400 encode-int encode+ \ private features
00000000 encode-int encode+
0000260d encode-int encode+
46000270 encode-int encode+
" prim-info" property
device-end
then
then \ End of mini hacks
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The 1.25 Ghz one I installed had no issues at 1920x1080 on my Dell 4K S2722QC.
The 1.33 Ghz and 1.5 Ghz will be big pixeled/blurry in a weird way on that monitor at 1920x1080 @60 Hz to the point of basically unusable but are fine at 1024 x 768 @ 60 Hz.
....
I should mention I am using a DVI to HDMI cable. When I tried a DVI to HDMI adapter from a no-name brand I got intermittent black screens/flickering.
To those, who will be posting their results to this thread - please list the following, so that we know as much details as possible.
1. Mac Mini model - 1.25; 1.33; 1.42 or 1.5 Ghz.
2. Software version used - v8; v9 or some other.
3. ATI extensions used - original or modified.
4. Driver extension used - ATI Via Driver or ATI RockHopper2 Driver.
5. Cables, adapters and ports used in the test. Ideally all that are available.
6. Display model + ports available (VGA, DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort)
7. Native resolution of the display - i.e. 1920 x 1200 @60Hz etc.
Pictures and screenshots are welcome :)
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I should mention I am using a DVI to HDMI cable. When I tried a DVI to HDMI adapter from a no-name brand I got intermittent black screens/flickering.
I think you've jumped to conclusions way too soon. If one is testing something, all possible variables should be included in the test too. ;)
And so I conducted the following test that I omitted before.
* Dell 24" U2412M + 1.5 GHz Mini
* v8 ROM, modified ATI extensions (minimal set), ATI RockHopper2 Driver.
* Testing DVI to DVI connection using DVI to HDMI adapters and HDMI cables.
I have at my disposal three adapters - two dual link DVI-D and one single link DVI-D.
I also have two HDMI cables - one thicker and one thinner. Where they come from and who made them, I have no idea.
With all possible permutations:
* 2 dual link adapters
* 1 dual link and 1 single link adapter
* single link at Mac end
* single link at display end
I got normal picture (given the U2412M oddities) with thicker HDMI cable.
When I tried the other, thinner cable, I got this. And, no, the cable is not defective, it works fine elsewhere.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13722)
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@ssp3 Is there something special in that last screenshot? 1920x1080@60Hz is "normal" to have with that monitor + ATI RockHopper2 via regular DVI-DVI cable, as well.
Are you trying to say that with the thicker HDMI cable (but not the thinner one), you were able to get 1920x1200@60Hz instead, on that monitor?
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@ssp3 Is there something special in that last screenshot?
Obviously. Tons of horizontal lines. Could be sync problem.
Are you trying to say that with the thicker HDMI cable (but not the thinner one), you were able to get 1920x1200@60Hz instead, on that monitor?
No, I didn't say that. Better wait for my next test results. Or switch to VGA cable right now, if you want 1920x1200@60Hz and can't wait any longer ;)
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Dell 24" U2412M + 1.5 GHz Mini
Native display resolution - 1920 x 1200 @60Hz (16:10)
1. DVI to VGA, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - black screen.
2. DVI to VGA, no driver - 800 x 600, no acceleration.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13724)
3. DVI to VGA, ATI Via Driver - max resolution, acceleration works.
Note that display is recognized correctly as Dell U2412M
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13726)
4. DVI to DVI, ATI Via Driver - black screen. Similar to my test with v9 ROM in the first post.
5. DVI to DVI, no driver - 1920 x 1200, everything looks fine, but no acceleration and 256 colors only.
Display is recognized as Color LCD.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13728)
6. DVI to DVI, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - acceleration works, but there is no option to switch to 1920 x 1200 @60Hz native resolution
Display is recognized as VGA (!) despite being connected over DVI. I think, all this is because of Merlin code in the driver.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13730)
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If someone thinks that having 1.25 GHz or 1.42 GHz model is a safe bet, check how many conditions produced black screen with this combo.
Dell 22" P2212H + 1.25 GHz Mini
Native display resolution - 1920 x 1080 @60Hz (16:9)
v8 ROM, minimal set of modified ATI extensions plus ATI Via Driver or ATI RockHopper2 Driver.
1. DVI to DVI, ATI Via Driver - black screen.
2. DVI to DVI, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - black screen.
3. DVI to DVI, no driver - black screen.
4. DVI to DVI, no driver, no other ATI extensions - black screen.
5. DVI to VGA, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - black screen.
Strangely, once installed, I found it difficult to boot with "Extensions off" to recover from this condition. I had to switch to DVI-DVI cable and then back to do it.
6. DVI to VGA, neither ATI Via Driver nor ATI RockHopper2 Driver - black screen after brief moment with Happy Mac icon and large cursor.
Recovery as difficult as above.
7. DVI to VGA, no driver, no other ATI extensions - 640 x 480, 256 colors, no acceleration.
8. DVI to VGA, ATI Via Driver - max resolution, acceleration works.
Display is recognized correctly as Dell P2212H
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13734)
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@ssp3 Great detective work! So it essentially works correctly with both of those DELL monitors as long as we connect to them via its VGA port instead of the others. I don't know if this is laggier than plain DVI due to it being an analog connection which gets converted to digital (AFAIK), but it seems to be the only proper option. It is curious how it is even able to get the monitor names.
In any case, even then, it needs the ATI Via Driver, which is included with v8 and earlier. Just to be sure, using VGA with v9 (no modified drivers) = black screen? Did v9 + ATI Via Driver + VGA work?
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OK, I spoke too soon: I still do not get 1920x1200@60Hz over the VGA port of the DELL U2412M monitor with the ATI Via Driver: It still only shows the option @76Hz instead, all other resolutions at @60Hz are lower. I have a small VGA-to-DVI converter on the mini side, which I always used successfully with a CRT monitor. Also, my monitor is only identified as "VGA Display" in the Control Panel, just like before, instead of "DELL U2412M". It is weird we have the same minis and monitors, yet the results were different. Different VGA-to-DVI adapters? Different VGA cables?
There's also now an additional issue: the picture quality is slightly blurry, presumably due to conversion loss by using the VGA cable instead of DVI.
Interestingly, some extra options showed up on the Monitors Control Panel, which are suffixed by (NTSC) and (PAL). The PAL ones are at 50Hz. The NTSC ones just seem redundant with what I already had.
Oh well, back to DVI and ATI RockHopper2...
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Just to be sure, using VGA with v9 (no modified drivers) = black screen? Did v9 + ATI Via Driver + VGA work?
I guess I wrote too many lines and posted too many pictures.. ;D
@Jubadub, this is for you.
U2412M + 1.5 GHz Mini
DVI to VGA adapter + VGA to VGA cable by Dell.
1. v9 installation (v9 ROM, unmodified ATI extensions), no ATI Via Driver, no ATI RockHopper2 Driver - WORKS.
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.msg54304#msg54304
2. v8 installation (v8 ROM, modified ATI extensions, ATI Via Driver included) - WORKS.
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.msg54404#msg54404
With v9 install, you don't need ATI Via Driver, because it is integrated into v9 ROM.
Any driver that you will put in as Extension will override the built-in ATI Via Driver and will require all other modified ATI extensions.
As to the DVI to VGA adapters, I've been using plain vanilla and also original Apple provided ones. In my case, they all behaved identically.
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My results...
1.42 GHz Mac mini
Aluminium Cinema HD Displays
Testing both the 23" (1920x1200) and 20" (1680x1050) models of the display independently; the results are the same.
Both connect over a hard-wired DVI cable and are recognised as "Cinema HD" in the Monitors Control Panel.
Standard v9 install - full resolution @ 60 Hz, 2D/3D Acceleration working (both monitors)
Standard v8 install (v8 ROM + Via Driver) - full resolution @ 60 Hz, 2D/3D Acceleration working (both monitors)
v8 ROM + RockHopper2 Driver - black screen, 3 blinks from monitor LED. Can hear system sounds once booted, just no picture.
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OK, I spoke too soon: I still do not get 1920x1200@60Hz over the VGA port of the DELL U2412M monitor with the ATI Via Driver: It still only shows the option @76Hz instead, all other resolutions at @60Hz are lower. I have a small VGA-to-DVI converter on the mini side, which I always used successfully with a CRT monitor. Also, my monitor is only identified as "VGA Display" in the Control Panel, just like before, instead of "DELL U2412M". It is weird we have the same minis and monitors, yet the results were different. Different VGA-to-DVI adapters? Different VGA cables?
1. Make sure you have correct ROM / ATI Extensions / driver combination as I outlined in my previous post. Check modification dates, if in doubt.
2. Reset PRAM. Maybe even using OF commands.
3. Pull all other cables, except VGA from your display, just in case.
4. Try other adapters and VGA cables.
5. It could be that it is down to display revisions. Mine are relatively new - 2017, 2018 and 2021.
EDIT. I have a feeling that you have extensions that are fighting each other. Try the minimal set that I describe in the post below.
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Additional notes on my tests.
1. As can be seen from my posted screenshots, I am using only minimal set of ATI extensions to test for 2d acceleration. There are three plus driver extension, when needed.
2. darthnVader modified 3 extensions - ATI Resource Manager, ATI Graphics Accelerator and ATI 8500 3D Accelerator. And ATI Via Driver, of course.
I am leaving out ATI 8500 3D Accelerator in my tests. To spot modified extensions, check their modification dates - they are from 2018.
3. One other extension needed for graphics stuff to work is ATI Extension. It remains unmodified. I have tested several older versions (back to as far as 2001) and they all work.
4. Important! If you remove ATI Extension, but leave all other ATI extensions in place, you will get black screen. At least it happened to me when I tested with v8 ROM.
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Aluminium Cinema HD Displays
Testing both the 23" (1920x1200) and 20" (1680x1050) models of the display independently; the results are the same.
Both connect over a hard-wired DVI cable and are recognised as "Cinema HD" in the Monitors Control Panel.
Oh, Cinema HD Displays 8)
These two are listed in Mac Mini G4 documents as compatible, so, no surprise they're working.
OT. These are the older, non LED backlight models. How are they aging in terms of brightness, uniformity and color?
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Oh, Cinema HD Displays 8)
These two are listed in Mac Mini G4 documents as compatible, so, no surprise they're working.
OT. These are the older, non LED backlight models. How are they aging in terms of brightness, uniformity and color?
Yes they’ve always been working fine for OS 9 on the mini, just not with ‘RockHopper2 Driver’.
These matte displays are holding up well. The 23” one was bought in 2008. Having been in use since, there are these slight streaks of burn-in at the very bottom of the display, but this isn’t noticeable unless you’re looking for it with a blank background.
My 20” one is completely fine; bought this one several years ago, initially for the Mac mini in fact. Of course, it’s been used with various other computers since too. No burn in there, brightness seems to be as I remember, and the colours are fantastic on both.
Great monitors for their age!
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Schlepped home another Dell display to test it with Mini. This one is higher quality version of 2212 from their "Ultrasharp" line.
Dell 22" U2212HM + 1.5 GHz Mini
Native display resolution - 1920 x 1080 @60Hz (16:9)
IPS type panel
VGA + DVI + Display Port inputs.
v8 ROM
Test conditions identical to my previous tests
1. DVI to VGA, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - black screen.
2. DVI to VGA, no driver - 800 x 600, no acceleration.
3. DVI to VGA, ATI Via Driver - max resolution, acceleration works.
Display is recognized correctly as Dell U2212HM
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13757)
4. DVI to DVI, ATI Via Driver - black screen. Similar to my test with v9 ROM in the first post.
5. DVI to DVI, no driver - 1920 x 1080, no acceleration. Display is recognized as Color LCD.
6. DVI to DVI, ATI RockHopper2 Driver - max resolution, acceleration works.
Display is recognized as VGA (!) despite being connected over DVI.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13759)
As can be seen, the results are identical to those of the other version of Dell 2212.
I think that either Dell displays report to graphic chips/cards in a certain way and that's why Minis are so finicky with them or there might be a problem with Full HD 16:9 displays in general.
If anyone else is using 1920x1080 display with his Mini, please chime in.
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Still talking to myself..
To complement what I wrote about similar combination and OS9 > http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.msg54411#msg54411
Dell 22" U2212HM + 1.25 GHz Mini
Native display resolution - 1920 x 1080 @60Hz (16:9)
DVI to DVI cable.
Mini is running "naked". No DVD drive, no Mezanine, Bluetooth or AirPort boards.
Boot drive - 128GB 2.5" "stripped" Samsung SSD on a cheap JMicron adapter. (My standard setup).
OSX 10.5.8 Leopard
Boot into OpenFirmware
First attachment. One can barely see command line prompt.
Boot into Leopard
Second attachment. Same problem.
Boot into Leopard, VGA cable + adapter
Third attachment. Note the odd aspect ratio. It becomes normal when OSX drivers kick in.
It looks to me that first generation Minis have problems communicating to Full HD 1920 x 1080 displays when connected over DVI in OSX too.
At least to those manufactured by Dell. VGA adapters are OK.
This might be the real reason why Apple silently upgraded G4 Minis and their ROMs - upcoming OS and modern display compatibility!
What's the point of having digital (DVI) connection on your product, if it doesn't work with Full HD displays that are gaining popularity? ;)
Of course, to be 100% sure, more user reports are needed !
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Of possible relevance here … per darthnVader.
Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz / April 1, 2018
https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4337.msg30099#msg30099
Display Support: Single Display Resolution Support: 1920x1200
Details: The DVI video output supports digital resolutions up to 1920x1200. Apple also reports that it supports the "20-inch Apple Cinema display and 23-inch Apple Cinema HD display; supports coherent digital displays up to 154MHz; supports non-coherent digital displays up to 135MHz." VGA output (using the provided adapter) supports analog resolutions as high as 1920x1080. S-Video and composite video (to connect to a projector or TV) requires the Apple DVI to Video adapter (sold separately).
Coherent vs non-coherent is some obscure thing to do with the TMDS transmitter( on the GPU ) and the TMDS receiver in the display. The 9200 either has an issue with a weak TMDS signal with non-coherent receivers( Displays ). Or Apple crippled it, tho I doubt that.
The trouble is, no manufacturer really list that in the specs, and I doubt you'd get anyone in tech support to know what you were talking about if you did call them.
So it's really a crap shoot as to what brand and make of display will work correctly at the native res of the LCD/LED. My 1080p HDTV works fine with the Mini @720p, as the pixel clock is not over 135Mhz at that resolution.
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Of possible relevance here … per darthnVader.
Mac Mini G4 pixel clock limited to 135Mhz / April 1, 2018
https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4337.msg30099#msg30099
Well, the same Dell 1920 x 1080 display works just fine with 1.5Ghz Mini in OSX Leopard. ;)
Besides,
* 1920 x 1080 Dell has 148.5 MHz pixel clock
* 1920 x 1200 Dell has 154.0 MHz pixel clock.
I'm curious where does the 135 MHz figure comes from.
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I'm curious where does the 135 MHz figure come from.
Perhaps you should ask (or invite) darth to comment here?
Not quite certain what you’re really expecting from the 2005 Mac minis (with fixed 32mb or 64mb of VRAM) originally designed to work with Apple monitors. Sure, they will work with some other monitors, but not always and not at all resolutions, nor connection variants.
But I do hope you find your answers and any possible solutions. ;)
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Perhaps you should ask (or invite) darth to comment here?
He was last seen here almost a year ago..
Not quite certain what you’re really expecting from the 2005 Mac minis (with fixed 32mb or 64mb of VRAM) originally designed to work with Apple monitors.
I do expect them to work with more or less modern displays. Not necessarily with 4k, but at least with Full HD.
I see no point of hot-rodding these Minis - overclocking, SSD drives, copper heatsinks and so on if at the end of the day one could only connect them to old and slowly fading CCFL backlight displays, no matter of what brand.
1920 x 1080 + LED backlight is the norm today, smaller resolutions of decent quality cost extra.
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For those who don't want to read the whole thread but are after quick answers.
These are my test results as of today.
NOTE. OS9 tests were run using v8 ROM file and appropriate extensions.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7048.0;attach=13880)
Note the strange setting required for Dell P190S to work with RockHopper driver. I have a feeling that somewhere some resolutions table is off in that driver.
* I made a table in Apple's Numbers which I will update as soon as I have any new data. If someone has other test results, just let me know and I will happily add them.