Problems with ATI Video Accelerator after Update from 9.1 to 9.2.1

[Apfel]

i would say the driver is expecting the 9200 to be on the AGP bus, so to me it seems like a problem of the wrong ROM or ROM size flashed into the card, the pci version maybe use using a driver thats trying to reference the card on the AGP connection? are u leaving both of them in at the same time also?? did u flash the 9200 on a mac or on a pc

The 9200 IS ON the AGP Bus.
I only have one card installed at one time.
Both the 9200-PCI retail which is not flashed and the flashed AGP one have the problem. Since the 9200 was officially only sold as PCI, the ATI driver should try to "reference" it on the PCI bus. So at least the 9200-PCI should work, right?
I did not flash it so I can't provide any answer on that pc vs mac part.

(...)
personally the 9200 is not the card u want to run anyway . an 8500 performs much better and can be bought for cheap if you look!
i would use an 8500 or a 9000 card or a geforce 4mx..

the 9200 pci is supposedly the best card for a powermac g3 tho.. but i have no experience with it..
i would remove the flashed card to ensure the agp card isnt somehow causing the problem with the pci one

focus on trying to get the 9200 pci retail to function.. PERHAPS it only functions well on a pci only mac (b&w g3, yikes g4)

either way, if u had a radeon 8500 or 9000 u wont have this problem at all. i almost guarantee u that!

Hm, I do not know what I thought when I was selling my 8500, my 9000 and my 2MX.  (I could bite my own ***)
I even knew that the 8500 was better for gaming than the 9000. Maybe I thought I have the 9200 as an AGP version and that should be better, since the 9200 AGP schould be faster than the 9200-PCI and x200 is higher than 9000.

I have a 4MX laying around now. I will try that, but after that updating circus above I first have to get my OS 9 running properly again. Also I still would love to see the 9200 functioning.

PS: I guess one reason I kept the 9200-AGP was for curiosity/rareness reasons and that it has a Cube-formfactor.

I now will start over again with all upgrades uninstalled with a plain hard drive.


EDIT: I will try it the other way round. I will first try the OS9-general.zip and try the cards. Then, if no success I will try the ATI updates. Do I have to use the 2004 or 2005 one, again? If that does not work, I will put out the Sonnet CPU. - and try again

[Knez]

Well, I did jump to hotfix, and used the 2005 update. But the above "use that as update" means I have to first install the 2004 drivers and then the 2005 drivers??? Please comment.

It means that it's complementary to the full update. You should install the driver pack as usual and then install the hotfix over it. The 2004 or 2005 drivers should not matter.

So, install the 2005 update, reboot, install the hotfix, reboot.

I would just go out on ebay and buy a Radeon 8500, 9000 or the fastest OS9-compatible card there was, the GeForce 4 Titanium 128mb.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/geforce4_ti/geforce4_titanium_Mac.html

Happy hacking

[Apfel]

Thank you.

I now remember why I had kept the 9200 and sold all the others.

I planned a combination of a 9800 + 9200
9800 for OS X and Core Image (but no hardware acceleration, so no OpenGL under OS 9)
9200 with no Core Image but HW acceleration under OS 9

The Geforce4Ti 4600 would have HW acceleration under OS 9, but no Core Image (if I am correct),
but since it is AGP and the 9800 is faster I would have to decide between 1 card and superior OS 9 gaming, but no Core Image under OS X OR 2x cards and Core Image (9800) plus HW acceleration (9200).

Interesting, these benchmarks you linked to, they see the Geforce 4MX second to Geforce4Ti and the 8500 behind both, (well except for Apple Works scrolling test :-) were the 8500 is superior to the 4MX).
I always thought that the 8500/9000 is a better card than the 4MX. (Also see the benchmarks and the 3MX). Here http://www.jcsenterprises.com/Japamacs_Page/Blog/8923D90A-7AD8-41F1-BD1A-FEA5E1780B95.html the 4MX is behind the 3MX, the 3MX behind the 8500/9000/9200 and those are of course as expected behind the 4Ti. (the 9800 is talked about on the next page which focuses on OS X).
But anyhow, it is hard to say, what these numbers mean in real life. I have a sceptical feeling towards benchmarks in general. I'd say, if you do not notice the difference in real life, well... then what. On the other hand it always gives a good feeling to have some power left for the rare case you do not foresee, but may come some day.


When I think about it, I should make one Mac a sole OS 9 gaming machine and keep things separted. Then again I think of OS 7 games. OK, I could do that on a sole X machine in emulation or buy a Macintosh SE, which I always wanted to have, but they go so pricey here. and then again all the room that it takes...  I also more like it as small and compact as possible. Sorry, for going off topic.

[supernova777]

i have:

radeon 8500 agp
geforce mx 2
geforce mx 4

and the 8500 smokes all of them.

heres a mini chart of memory bandwidth + core clock mhz speeds
of the 4x agp cards

                        bandw   clock
geforce2mx       2.65      175
geforce4mx       2.65      250
8500                 8.8      275
9000                 8      250
9200                 6.4      200

the otehr thing to consider is ports.. VGA vs DVI vs ADC
the 8500 features DVI/VGA standard ports for standard compatibility wheras the
geforce cards are almost all DVI/ADC or VGA/ADC(? maybe?) i dont think any of them are DVI/VGA combo
which is why i choose the 8500 as the best card for features/compatibility/performance

[Apfel]

                        bandw   clock
geforce2mx       2.65      175
geforce4mx       2.65      250
8500                 8.8      275
9000                 8      250
9200                 6.4      200

That speaks a clear language, though people might argue that other hardware factors may come into account that might interact better with one or the other card. Plus this charts shows that maybe some benchmark tables are not that trusty as many think.

[supernova777]

i got that info from gpureview.com
which offers alot more detailed information then those two properties that i chose to focus on!!

for 3d/2d accelleration the radeon 8500 agp is the best there is and best supported for os9.
but for g3s + pci graphics g4's the 9200 is obviously the best.

honestly the 8500 is the bomb its silent too.. yes a 9800 is almost twice as good specs wise for osx, but the 8500 is the best choice... i have a flashed 9800 aswell.. but its sitting on my desk unused even tho its alot faster its not supported + accellerated under os9 and thers no way im gonna be changing my monitor cables everytime i reboot.. if i decide to run osx on a given machine thats why i got this 9800 "on deck"

btw
specs for
geforce4 titanium 4200 : (agp 4x)
clock speed: 250 MHz
mem bandw: 7.104 GB/sec

geforce4 titanium 4600 : (agp 4x)  <------------ BEST performing os9 card ever i  think
clock speed: 300 MHz
mem bandw: 10.4 GB/sec

geforce4 titanium 4800 : (agp 8x)
clock speed: 300 MHz
mem bandw: 9.6 GB/sec

so the best card is the titanium 4600 but the 8500 is available much cheaper usually

[Apfel]

Your 9800 isn't supported under OS 9 at all, or just HW acceleration wise?


PS: I got bad info. I downloaded the OS9general.zip from here and all unzippers (stuffit, macpardeluxe, BOMArchiveHeelper) did not work. An Error message came that said "can't unzip OS9general to xxx. Error code: -1" (xxx is the place I tried to unzip it, I tested several places on my ibook G4).
macintoshgarden provides a dead link under the MDD 9.2.2 install (that you said is the same as the OS9general).
I am now downloading the customized file by DieHard that is provided in this download section here. There is no further explanation so I guess I just have to drag and drop it, after unpackaging, right?

[supernova777]

hmmm thats strange..
i can reupload the os9general
i zipped it using Winrar on windows 7
didnt think it would make a difference but i will upload the .dmg unzipped
i think .dmg is a compressed format already.. i just zipped it for safety?
first try this
open stuffit expander
use the file->expand function
and select the zip
it should work..
if not it should work with an updated stuffit
http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/stuffit-deluxe

while u try that i will reupload it now to be sure

[Apfel]

I allready have version 5 (macintoshgarden) on OS 9 and I tried it under OS X stuffitexpander 8 and 11. Now 11 says there may be a problem, because it was compressed with an unknown OS or application. Maybe Version 11 does not work with the newest stuff. Well Windows7 is restricting/complicating things anyway. I always have to tell people to please save their files as .doc not .xdoc. (while everyone can open .doc and it is provided by Win7 as an option).

Yes, I think .dmg is compressed already. It is better to pack it in a zip archive again, if you plan to send it via mail, because some providers will not allow to send executable applications. They do not see it is an application in the zip container.

Here is the OS9general.dmg (scroll down to DarkWallMac's post) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/macos9/nR2QQCKaCFA/Vh3rCA71s_MJ
if you want to try the netboot.dmg talked about in the first post jump to the post by Rogerd095

[supernova777]

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=305.msg542#msg542

visit the thread the link has been updated to point to a .dmg

[Apfel]

Thank you.

In the meantime I succeeded doing something different.

I said before, that the white 9.2.1 CD I have seems to be defective (since Mac OS said "can't find Big System Morsel", but it maybe meant, that it can't find it on the old 9.1 install. I thought that file was damaged on the 9.2.1 CD).

I formatted a fresh HDD.
I put in the OS 9.2.1 (german) install CD and chose "System Installation" (so now there was no pre-existing 9.1 in the way).
9.2.1 completed without error. Now I mounted the german 9.2.2-Update.smi under OS 9.2.1 by double clicking.
It installed correctly.
Now I applied the 2005-ATI-Driver-Update.hqx http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ATI_Radeon_Retail_Installer/ati-retail-9-2-2-jan2005.hqx
After that I put in the 9200-PCI (retail).
I then mounted the hotfix.smi and installed the ROM-Update (it updates the ROM of the Card itself) http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ROM/radeon9200romhotfixos9.hqx

Now Cro-Mag-Ralley (which made the most hazzle) works great.

Puh, now sit down and take a rest 

Nooooow I wanted to test the 9200-AGP (flashed). I installed that and applied the hotfix there as well. -> while the firmware-updater says it was successful, the 9200-AGP won't work:
a) with games that aquire a lot of hardware acceleration
b) if the "ATI Video Accelerator" Extension is activated in the Extensions ON/OFF Folder (is it "Extensions" in English? Maybe it is "Plugin"?). The desktop will freeze immediately after start-up. You will have to hit opt+cmd+esc (alt+apple+esc), after that you can proceed with normal stuff and games that do not acquire heavy 3D/HW-acceleration. Bugdom for example will lament, but will work. Cro-Mag-Ralley will prompt you with a black screen (before the Firmwareupdate-hotfix it at least would let me see the game-screens and go forward step by step in a 5-seconds rhythm).


Unfortunately I did not write down what firmware was shown in the System Profile for the AGP-9200. It now says:

Card type: ATY,DDParent
Card name: ATY,BugsyParent
Card modell: ATY,RV280
Card ROM #: 113-A27502-127
Card version: 1
Card manufacturer-ID: 1002
Video-RAM: 128MB

In the hotfix section http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#9200rom it says:

113-A27502-124

[Apfel]

Additional notes/questions:

1. Where would I find the latest OS 9 Nvidia drivers, btw.? Are these trustworthy http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Drivers/Apple-NVIDIA-Driver.shtml (I found that link on a site macosx.com. Firefox said that this site has an unknown certificate. I went there, though).

2. there seem to be hints, that no self-flashed PC card supports HW-acceleration in OS 9. Don't know if that is always true. See last post https://macosx.com/forums/mac-classic-system-software/283897-nvidia-driver-os9.html (flashed cards would work under OS X flawlessly, though).

3. what is "software graphics mode" see lat post https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2312878?tstart=0

[supernova777]

1. Where would I find the latest OS 9 Nvidia drivers, btw.? Are these trustworthy http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Drivers/Apple-NVIDIA-Driver.shtml (I found that link on a site macosx.com. Firefox said that this site has an unknown certificate. I went there, though).

the extensions are built into the os9general.dmg file posted here on the site..
do u have an osx partition?
i have downloaded them before frm a site in a zip by themselves
this is why i said to use os9general.dmg to install it has all the radeon + nvidia drivers on it it already
and is 9.2.2 so no updates neccessary

[Apfel]

Yes I have an OS X partition, where I unpack dmg files since they won't be unpacked under OS 9's latest stuffit expander (I have Version 6 by the way, I browsed through the http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/os/os9/Fresh9.2.2DragInstall.sea install that is posted here in the forum and it has Stuffit-Expander Version 5 I think ).

While I was waiting for you to upload the unzipped dmg file, I had allready found a .dmg file from the google group, which I could unpack. But at the same time I ran the Install from the German "white-labled" OS 9.2.1 full version CD, which was successful and after that I installed the German 9.2.2 Update and after that the ATI-2005 drivers. Everything went fine and now I have a German Installation as I wanted (the mistake was to start from drag and dropping the iMac's OS 9.1).

I could browse through your OS9general.dmg and drag and drop the nvidia extensions, but I'd prefer using an installer, just to be sure nothing goes wrong, because I already noticed that the ATI installer installs new things and deletes older things. So I would not only have to drag and drop your Nvidia extensions from your dmg, but I would also delete the extensions in my folder that are not present in yours and I think that that would not be very save.

My nerves are wrecked enough from the last days, so sorry that I do not try installing your English 9.2.2general.dmg, after the one I created works fine.

i have downloaded them before frm a site in a zip by themselves

and did you try to unzip those under OS X 10.4.11? I did and your zip did not want to unzip, because the "original program or OS that created the file was not found", which seems to be Win7, as you said.

All download links to the OS9general.dmg that I find on google are dmg, not zipped. The macintoshgarden.org dropbox link is dead, as I mentioned before.

[supernova777]

the dmg is already posted on this site

[Apfel]

Yes, thank you! - but yesterday, while I was in the process it was the zip file and I did not want to wait till you were ready with uploading the dmg.

[supernova777]

it was posted yesterday aswell. i uploaded it a few min after i said i would
!

[Apfel]

First of all, make sure you have installed the latest version of Ati drivers for Mac Os 9.
For 3D on Raden 8500,9000,9200... "8500 3D Accelerator" is needed and the last vesion is 7.1.0

One last question, though.
I ran the 2005-ATI-Driver-Update from the link. When I navigate into the ready installed System extensions Folder, after the Update, it shows the "ATI 3D 8500 Accelerator" as version 7.0.9, from 05/2004.
This is strange isn't it? (and I have not tried the 2004 update, that is shown on the side.)
MacTron, where did you get your 7.1.0 from. Was it maybe on a CD that came with an ATI MAC retail card?


Also, I found out when I browsed through different Install Images and ready Installations, that the ATI Driver Update only updates some of the drivers. The Extension named "ATI Driver Update" itself stays at the version that came with the OS install.
Also my 9.2.2 Update did not install Nvidia drivers, since maybe it thought I do not need them, because it found no Nvidia card in the Slot. So I have to manually drag and drop them from other installs.
Or I will get the latest package from Nvidia itself.

[MacTron]

I've told you:

All the rv2x0 family uses the same drivers. In fact I've used −for years, and without problems− the 9200 drivers in macs with 8500 and 9000PRO because are the most updated.

The Radeon 9200 drivers are the most updated:

[supernova777]

why dont u throw them in a stuffit file for others to download + post as attachment;)
thanks for your keen research!!!!!