Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Hardware => Topic started by: supernova777 on March 19, 2014, 03:26:14 AM
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hey there guys;)
a thought ocurred to me, back in the day + still to this day.. for some reason with my macs ive always had like every ram stick in the machine be from a different manufacturer..
having most of the time gotten the machine 2nd hand..
what id like to propose here + now is the question
could it be that alot of "unexplained mac errors + wierdness"
could be the result of using mix matched ram chips from different manufacturers?
what id like to propose is that, with todays prices its easy to spend a bit of money on ebay to get 4 x matching ram sticks
i would like to replace all of my mixmatched ram with properly matched pairs + sets of ram from the same batch + manufacturer
i have a hunch this would do alot for system stability + getting rid of "unexplained errors"
+ quirkyness..
so what im saying is to purchase a full set of the same exact type of ram in case your mac has different ram chips in each slot
(with different actual size + shape + pattern + arrangement of chips on the dimm etc)
and buy a fully matched set such as this:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTUwWDU1MA==/z/F3kAAOxykMpTHnH3/$_3.JPG)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-2GB-4X512MB-PC133-168Pin-Low-Density-Desktop-168-Pin-SDRAM-Memory-RAM-/150935340566?pt=US_Memory_RAM_&hash=item2324728616
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consulting the manual for my g4 sawtooth:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_450.html
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/PowerMacG4_PCI-AGPSetup.pdf
from the manual:
(http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/g4_sawtooth_ram_info.PNG)
see it says right in the manual that the system was only built to support a max of 1GB RAM!
and it says it was built to use PC100 type ram
im looking for a QVL (Qualified vendor List) to show which manufacturers were officially qualified + Reccommended
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http://www.crucial.com/upgrade/Apple-memory/Power+Mac/Power+Mac+G4+%28350,+400,+450,+and+500MHz%29-upgrades.html
AGP graphics version supports up to 2GB with 512MB modules, but the PCI graphics version will only accept up to 1GB using 256MB modules
ok yes double checking the name of the manual pdf above.. it is a generic manual for both PCI + AGP g4 models!
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when putting ram in a machine always consider
a) the speed of the ram
b) the DENSITY of the ram (does it have chips on both sides? or one side?)
c) the actual memory chip count pieces .. ie: 4 chips 8 chips 16 chips etc etc
never mix ram of different speeds or they will all clock to the lowest, weakest link
never mix ram of different density's or u can have strange unexplainable problems
funny, on my g5 just now my disk utility was crashing everytime i ran it
untill i removed a pair of 256mb low density (single sided) ddr 400 chips
which removed the incomptibility of high density to low density ram in my machine
(now it was only high density double sided chips installed, each 1gb in size)
and all of a sudden.. no more errors.. disk utility launches normally..
ram can be the reason USUALLY IT IS!!! the reason for strange unexplained problems
or rather
inconsistant, improper matched combinations of ram, + innappropriate ram for the machine (ie: wrong speed, wrong density or simply incompatible manufacturer timings)
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Just for the record: MDDs can support 1GB DDR400 dimms if they are located at the first memory slots. I'll never have tried to put more than two because Mac Os 9 only sees 1.5GB max.
As some users are not installing more than 1Gb of RAM, putting only one of this 1GB dimms can simplifies a lot, and solve some weird memory problems.
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As some users are not installing more than 1Gb of RAM, putting only one of this 1GB dimms can simplifies a lot, and solve some weird memory problems.
http://www.alternate.es/html/listings/Hardware-Componentes-Memoria-RAM-DDR-DDR-1-GB/652?filter_11=&filter_10=&filter_9=&filter_8=&filter_7=&filter_6=&filter_5=&filter_4=&filter_3=&filter_2=&filter_1=&order=ASC&sort=PRICE&filterCount=15&lk=6555&tk=7&navId=652 (http://www.alternate.es/html/listings/Hardware-Componentes-Memoria-RAM-DDR-DDR-1-GB/652?filter_11=&filter_10=&filter_9=&filter_8=&filter_7=&filter_6=&filter_5=&filter_4=&filter_3=&filter_2=&filter_1=&order=ASC&sort=PRICE&filterCount=15&lk=6555&tk=7&navId=652)
€ 18,29 for 1 gigabyte
http://www.alternate.es/html/listings/Hardware-Componentes-Memoria-RAM-DDR-DDR-2-GB/654?filter_5=&filter_4=&filter_3=&filter_2=&filter_1=&order=ASC&sort=PRICE&lk=6556&tk=7&navId=654 (http://www.alternate.es/html/listings/Hardware-Componentes-Memoria-RAM-DDR-DDR-2-GB/654?filter_5=&filter_4=&filter_3=&filter_2=&filter_1=&order=ASC&sort=PRICE&lk=6556&tk=7&navId=654)
€ 32,99 for 2 gigabyte
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MDDs can support 1GB DDR400 dimms if they are located at the first memory slots. I'll never have tried to put more than two because Mac Os 9 only sees 1.5GB max.
"Normal" G4 1.42 needs DDR 333 and my G4 866 needs DDR 266. DDR 400 is a must I guess to overclock beyond 1.42 Ghz and 166 bus.
Anyone did try 4 sticks of 1 gig on OSX? Is the memory controller topping it at 2 gig?
512 megabyte 133 sticks on my G3 rev.1 are seen as 256
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As Chris said... with G4s always go for the "Low Density" Double side RAM Modules with PPC G4s
Note: For G4s that PC100 (like Sawtooth & Cube), use PC100 and DO NOT USE PC133; PC133 does NOT always function correctly when clocked down to PC100, so it is a good idea to not count on that, where as DDR1 will almost always clock down to the slowest piece (as Chris Said)
Speeds of DDR1 for MDD
PC3200 = 400 Mhz., PC2700=333 Mhz., PC2100=266 Mhz.
Also.. for the Record... avoid Bargain Basement RAM... try to stick to major, tried and true Manufacturers...
The Best...
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Micron
Kingston
Crucial
Very Good
=======
Samsung
Hynix
Avoid
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PNY
Corsair
Simpletech
No Name at All
All Brands of ECC (Error correcting RAM); Power Mac G4s do not support it
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Just for the record: MDDs can support 1GB DDR400 dimms if they are located at the first memory slots. I'll never have tried to put more than two because Mac Os 9 only sees 1.5GB max.
As some users are not installing more than 1Gb of RAM, putting only one of this 1GB dimms can simplifies a lot, and solve some weird memory problems.
good point. my 867mdd was running on a single 1gb ddr400 module but i just took it out to put in my p4 fileserver box because it has 2 slots. and one slot is bad. but mdd has 4 slots so i put in 4x matching 256mb modules (low density)
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"Normal" G4 1.42 needs DDR 333 and my G4 866 needs DDR 266. DDR 400 is a must I guess to overclock beyond 1.42 Ghz and 166 bus.
Anyone did try 4 sticks of 1 gig on OSX? Is the memory controller topping it at 2 gig?
512 megabyte 133 sticks on my G3 rev.1 are seen as 256
another good pt.. always try to use the highest speed ram if overclocking..
re: 4 x 1GB -- it doesnt show up.. only 2gb max on MDD, if u put 3 or 4 it will only show 2GB (i think)
g3 i think works better with pc100 ram..?
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Also.. for the Record... avoid Bargain Basement RAM... try to stick to major, tried and true Manufacturers...
The Best...
=======
Micron
Kingston
Crucial
Very Good
=======
Samsung
Hynix
Avoid
=====
PNY
Corsair
Simpletech
No Name at All
All Brands of ECC (Error correcting RAM); Power Mac G4s do not support it
In Europe we have only ADATA, Corsair, G.Skill, Mushkin on 2 gbytes modules
On 1 Gbyte we have ADATA , Corsair, Corsair ValueSelect, Crucial, G.Skill, Mushkin,Transcend
I think you only would admit http://www.alternate.es/html/listings/Hardware-Componentes-Memoria-RAM-DDR/11542?filter_5=&filter_4=&filter_3=&filter_2=&filter_1=&lk=6550&tk=7&navId=11542#Crucial (http://www.alternate.es/html/listings/Hardware-Componentes-Memoria-RAM-DDR/11542?filter_5=&filter_4=&filter_3=&filter_2=&filter_1=&lk=6550&tk=7&navId=11542#Crucial)
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As Chris said... with G4s always go for the "Low Density" Double side RAM Modules with PPC G4s
i was of the understanding that:
chips on both sides = high density ram
chips on one side only = low density ram
is this what u meant diehard?? ;0
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another good pt.. always try to use the highest speed ram if overclocking..
This is not generally necessary, unless System Bus (=> Memory Bus) overclock ...
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i was of the understanding that:
chips on both sides = high density ram
chips on one side only = low density ram
is this what u meant diehard?? ;0
Well, I understand the opposite :)
So, waiting DieHard answer... LOL
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well less chips means they have to be of more density to be get to the same amount as double sided ram-sticks. from a logical point of view.
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well regardless which is which.. most important idea is to not mix + match these different types..
keep consistant .. install all of one type or the other
and dont mix different speeds
even tho it can work its allowing the possibility for errors!
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wow i was really tired when writing this... to be get... -afro-
well less chips means they have to be of more density to be get to the same amount as double sided ram-sticks. from a logical point of view.
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Sorry for all the confusion...the chips on both sides thing is not exactly what I meant... this from the web... explains it much better
In the context of the 1 GB non-ECC PC3200 SDRAM module, there is very little visually to differentiate low density from high density RAM. High density DDR RAM modules will, like their low density counterparts, usually be double-sided with eight 512 Mbit chips per side. The difference is that for each chip, instead of being organized in a 64M×8 configuration, it is organized with 128 Mbits and a data width of 4 bits, or 128M×4.
If your system is designed for accepting DDR (Double Data Rate) memories of 184pin DIMM (usually desktops) or 200pin SODIMM (usually laptops) built, for your system to fully recognise 1GB capacity per memory slot, you need to use 'Low Density - 64Mx8 config' 1GB module. If you use 'High-Density - 128Mx4 config' 1GB module, your PC may only recognise it as HALF the size at 512MB or most of the time it will not work.
How to tell if your 1GB module is a low or high density module?
All low density 1GB modules are made with 16 chips (8 chips on each side) using 64Mx8 device.
All high density 1GB modules are made with 16 chips (8 chips on each side) using 128Mx4 device.
It costs memory manufacturers almost the same to produce Low Density 1GB modules which have 100% compatibility with all systems on the market, comparing to producing high density 1GB modules. So why would manufacturers be so foolish to produce high density 1GB modules which only have 10% compatibility with systems on the market? The reason is simple, because high density 1GB modules are mainly manufacturing process rejects/seconds that cannot be made as a low density modules. It is very much like Intel CPU, those CPU that cannot be made as Pentium 4 CPU become a slower bus Celeron CPU instead, by a down-binning process.
High Density module is by far much slower than Low Density module at same speed rating say PC3200/DDR400. A lot of users have fallen into attractive CHEAP PRICE trap by High Density module sellers and have complained that they are either VERY SLOW and/or will not run at all and sellers won't accept return!
High density modules are FAR CHEAPER, less than half the price when compare with low density modules and hence high density modules will NOT work on 90% of today's PC chipsets that require and can only use 'Low Density - 64Mx8 config' 1GB modules.
In summary:-
LOW DENSITY modules have 100% compatibility with ALL systems and ALL chipsets.
HIGH DENSITY modules only have 60% compatibility and are VERY SLOW.
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LOW DENSITY modules have 100% compatibility with ALL systems and ALL chipsets.
HIGH DENSITY modules only have 10% compatibility and are VERY SLOW.
i reviewed this info myself + read further that there were alot of posts saying that alot of this information is false and was stemmed from a post made by some guy on a forum years ago that has been copied a million times and the statements the guy said were totally not accurate re: high densit modules only having 10% compatibility.. etc
alot of it is exageration based on some issues that were happening in and around 2004-2005 with new vs old systems + new vs old types of ram
which goes to show u u cant blindly accept every fact u find somewhere on the net.. ! because alot of the times it can be innaccurate or partially false
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** Update... *** Modified ***
Chris is right... blown out of proportion... however...
Changed it to my personal experience... 70% Compatible... 15% see it as half the correct size... and 15% give RAM errors, crashes, etc.
Chris, even if it was 95% compatible... do you want your computer to be in the 5%... not me :)
I have personally been installing 20 - 40 RAM installs / upgrades in a retail environment per week since the IBM PC @ 4 Mhz. in 1983... and I have seen customers buy crap RAM over the years... the best RAM you can get is always the first step to a stable system... period.
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agreed
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i just had to switch some ram around as i have this old Abit BE6 motherboard from 1999 that i wanted to get 768mb of ram (The max available for this board) its a strange board it only has 3 slots for memory..
anyways i had 2 x 128 + 1 x 256 giving me 512mb total, but of course anything short of max is not enough;) lol
anyways this board did not accept any pc133 ram at all it will not post with pc133 at all.. so i had to steal some pc100 sdram from my newly acquired G3 450mhz.. and after some testing i found that this g3 is just fine with PC133 sdram... in fact it even worked with a few 512MB PC133 pieces althought they showed up as 256mb (half their real size) interestingly enough i also tried with some single sided 256mb pieces and they also worked but showed up as 128mb..
i just plugged those same peices into the G4 450mhz and it seems to recognize the full 512mb size of the larger chips.. im about to test if the g4 sees the whole size of the single sided 256mb modules, but i would guess that it does based on it seeing the full 512mb of the others.
re-summary of findings:
powermac g3 450mhz (rev 2) = ok with pc133 (clocks down to pc100 just fine, sees dbl.sided 512mb as 256mb, single sided 256mb as 128mb)
powermac g4 450mhz = ok with pc133 (clocks down to pc100 as seen in system profiler, sees dbl sided 512mb modules, also seems to recognize full size of single sided 256mb modules)
system profiler also showed the speed/timing of the downclocked pc133
some were detailed as pc100-222s
and some as pc100-322s
apparently 222s = cl2 ram?
and 322s = cl3 ram?
and from a google search the 222s ram is said to be faster
is there anything better then PC100-222s?
if 222s is faster then 322s, is there a speed of pc100-122s?
also one more note: i just put in 1 x 256mb PC100 module that was from my g3 450mhz and the g4 450mhz came back saying it was incompatible!
the ram itself has a sticker that says g3 or g4 yikes.. the g4 i have is not a yikes.. but im still wondering why its incompatible when its pc100 sdram and the g4 45mhz agp model is downlocking the other pc133 chips to be pc100! :) wierd;)
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whats the best way to test my ram? using Apple hardware test cd? or is there another app i can do thats like memtest for mac?
i dont think we have a apple hardware test posted for the AGP sawtooth.. ?? do we?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1929867
ok this post says there is not AHT for the sawtooth and that they only started that with the digital audio models..
heres a post showing all the ahts i think
http://www.info.apple.com/support/aht.html
whats techtool pro?
probably for X?
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TechTool Pro 3 have a RAM tests and VRAM (and many others test) ...
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Hello, I join this thread to share my experience about memory setup on various MDD machines I have handled so far.
Well, I am gone thru an hard path trying to fill all the memory slot of my MDDs because results were different with different motherboard revision and here is what I have learned in my experiments:
Motherboard 820-1453-A (no extra fan plug near the modem PCB socket and no extra cooling aperture near the PCI slot end)
It accept almost all of the DIMM i put in, single and double sided, CL2, CL2.5, CL3, everything is not faulty from the beginning works perfectly for all the time. The full 4x512Mb configuration is handled flawlessly.
Motherboard 820-1476-A (extra fan plug near the modem PCB socket and extra cooling aperture near the PCI slot end)
It accepts only a percentage of the DIMMs that works on the previous motherboard and very difficult to have the full 2Gb configuration using 4x512 Mb. The only working setup was to put a couple of DIMM with timings 30330 in the first two slots (nearest the CPU) and a couple with timings 25330 in the other two (far from the CPU).
Otherwise the system is usually stable with 3 memory slot filled, when adding the fourth module the system, sooner or later will crash.
So far the most stable working and fastest system I have assembled has:
Motherboard PCB: 820-1453-A
CPU PCB: 820-1470-A (Dual 1.42 GHz overclocked to 2x1.50 GHz)
RAM: 2 Kit of Kingston KHX2700K2/1G HyperX couple (CL20220 on System Profiler) for a total of 2Gb (4x512 Mb)
GPU: ATI FireGL X3 flashed to X800XT (installing the ATI 9200 Hotfix under OS9 permit to recognize and use the full monitor resolution).
HD: WD Raptor 150 Gb with SATA/IDE bridge connected to MDD's internal ATA133 bus (snappier than every SCSI drive I have tried so far, including 15k)
It is rock solid, never freezed not in OS9 and not in OSX.
Recently I have purchased on eBay four identical 512Mb Corsair XMS2700 CMX512-2700LLPT and they also works without problems on the configuration above, they are only slightly slower than the Kingston HyperX (20320 vs 20220) but they perform almost the same, no noticeable differences in the everyday use. Of course I have put back the HyperX in MDD since I want the maximum speed possible.
The other MDD machine I have assembled (and mostly unstable with 4x512Mb RAM) is configured as follow:
Motherboard PCB: 820-1476-A
CPU PCB: 820-1452-A (dual 1.25 GHz on 167 MHz bus, not overclocked)
RAM: 2x512 Mb Infineon chips (latency 3)+ 1x512 Mb Micron chips (latency 2.5) +1x512 Mb Samsung chips (latency 2.5)
GPU: ATI Radeon 9000 Pro Apple OEM
HD: IDE Maxtor 20 Gb (Apple OEM) connected to internal ATA133 bus
In this setup the MDD is absolutely stable and no freezes occur under light or heavy load but every other memory combination I have tried failed miserably.
Of course I have also tested other CPU boards but every time with the same poor results:
PCB 820-1470-A (Dual 1.25 GHz on 167 MHz bus, not overclocked)
PCB 820-1497-A (Single 1.25 GHz on 167 MHz bus, not overclocked)
with the 820-1470-A CPU board plugged to the 820-1476-A motherboard the number of failures in RAM combination were even higher.
I have tried on this MDD also the HyperX modules and crashed, then Corsair XMS and crashed…
In the end seems (to me) that motherboards with PCB 820-1453-A can handle almost everything without glitches while the 820-1476-A are a truly nightmare to expand to maximum memory, the only working setup seem to put two slow DIMMs (CL3) in the J21 and J22 slots and two fast DIMMs (CL2.5) in J23 and J20 slots.
Anyone had better luck?
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http://lowendmac.com/2009/does-using-matched-ram-make-your-mac-faster-or-more-stable/
heres an article talking about this topic
claiming a slight performance gain from simply using the same brand/type of ram
very slight tho!
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oops wrong thread
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does the mdd support dual channel?
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does the mdd support dual channel?
Nope :(