Author Topic: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!  (Read 11909 times)

supernova777

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exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« on: March 29, 2014, 05:04:44 PM »

primer for those not following the other threads:
as discussed in earlier threads it was theorized that we could get "Server level" pci performance by sacrificing the 66mhz operation of the pci video card , moving it to a 33mhz slot
to more effectively use this speed for disk speed access via a sata pci adapter.. the reason being.. the 32bit 33mhz adapters cap out at 133mb/s but if they are used in a 66mhz slot they are capable of the same performance as a 64bit 33mhz card... 266mb/s!!!! this would allow this old hunk o junk g3 to more effectively use a SATA SSD via a 32bit adapter then the stronger g4 "AGP" systems... whether booted to os9 or osx. this is *HARDWARE* limitation (or enhancement if u look at it the right way;)


ok! so..!
just moved the graphics card from my new G3 450mhz into the 2nd slot.. and it boots fine as i expected!
there was a bit of a delay before the graphics showed properly.. maybe as it was loading driver + recognizing the ati 7000 card..
but very cool! so now i know i can try to populate the 66mhz slot with a 32bit sata card;)
ALSO: i notice no speed difference in graphics at all! performance at first glance is exactly the same with video card in a 33mhz slot

benchmarks of 66mhz sata pci performance very soon!!!!!!!  ;)

supernova777

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2014, 05:14:07 PM »
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 05:51:45 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2014, 06:03:48 PM »
ok first results are not promising..
the sata drive didnt show up when plugged into this 66mhz slot..
 :'(

http://www.dgweb.ca/g3/part5.html
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 07:26:48 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2014, 09:09:51 PM »
ok first results are not promising..
the sata drive didnt show up when plugged into this 66mhz slot..
 :'(

http://www.dgweb.ca/g3/part5.html
And the other slots?
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

supernova777

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 08:44:46 AM »
And the other slots?

it works fine on the other slots of course;)
but here is the finding

the video card works in any slot..
but the 66mhz slot.. does not seem to want to function as a normal slot
my sata card was not recognized when plugged into this "66mhz video slot"
i can try other cards that i have but im sure the result would be the same.

So the dream of having 266mb/s for cheap on the g3 is put to rest;(

the g3 450 is really awesome tho! i may be crazy but it feels just as fast if not FASTER! then my g4 450mhz?
if thats possible???? it is alot faster to shutdown when i click special shutdown it just shuts down almost instantly!


« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 10:28:39 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 11:25:10 AM »
G3s are 8.5.x 8.6 MacOS machines.
A G3 is as fast as a G4 with non ativec-optimized apps in a clock by clock basis. Finder is one "G3 coded" one
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 11:29:24 AM »

So the dream of having 266mb/s for cheap on the g3 is put to rest;(


You can still put 3 cheaps cards and make a Raid with 3 / 6 drives even if they work at 33Mhz only.
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Offline MacTron

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 12:30:47 PM »
You can still put 3 cheaps cards and make a Raid with 3 / 6 drives even if they work at 33Mhz only.
No. If the card and the PCI Bus can't go at 66 Mhz and/or 64 bits, the 133 MB/s barrier can't be surpassed. No matter how many RAID you put on the PCI bus. In fact, just a single SSD on a ATA-133 or SATA 150 can saturate the 33Mhz/32bits PCI bus.
That's what I've done with 64 bits card,  and chrisNova777 is trying to do with 66Mhz.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 01:13:10 PM by MacTron »
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Offline Jakl

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2014, 03:25:13 PM »
By the way Chris what sata card/cards did you try to use?
Were any of them Seritek cards?

Thanks

Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2014, 03:48:27 PM »
If the card and the PCI Bus can't go at 66 Mhz and/or 64 bits, the 133 MB/s barrier can't be surpassed. No matter how many RAID you put on the PCI bus. In fact, just a single SSD on a ATA-133 or SATA 150 can saturate the 33Mhz/32bits PCI bus.
That's what I've done with 64 bits card,  and chrisNova777 is trying to do with 66Mhz.

I guess in a magma 64bit chassis with 7 slots, 7 cards should give 133MB/s.

I guess even a 32 bit should do if the processor is fast enought to handle the I/O of hard disks.

I said to use various cards for the raid to saturate a little less every sata controller from every card.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 04:00:04 PM by Protools5LEGuy »
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supernova777

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2014, 04:08:54 PM »
jorge yea i understand what u mean..
i think the limit is 133mb/s per slot
so combining another slot and doing the raid that way
should work to get faster then 133mb/s when
both are used in combination

but what we were testing was
if we could achieve 66mhz operation/performance
with a 32bit card, because this same 32bit card
is capable of 66mhz operation - if put in a slot that is capable -
such as a powermac g5's slots (which are 100mhz)
if this 32bit card was inserted into a g5 100mhz
slot it would function at server level performance of 66mhz
(top speed the card can do)

but it seems that in a g3 or g4 any 32 bit card will only go as far
as 33mhz ....

BUT i just realized.. i have only tested this in  mac os 9..
perhaps in mac os X it may recognize the card ?


this would be the last thing to try before putting this topic to bed;)


Offline Protools5LEGuy

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2014, 05:02:16 PM »

this would be the last thing to try before putting this topic to bed;)


You can still test the Acard 6885 on same slot   ;D
Looking for MacOS 9.2.4

supernova777

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2014, 07:11:07 PM »
I guess in a magma 64bit chassis with 7 slots, 7 cards should give 133MB/s.

yeah even if u had a magma chassis it would have to connect to a single slot which is bandwidth limited to 133mb/s (if the magma card is 32bit) or 266mb/s (if the magma card is 64bit)

supernova777

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Re: exploring 66mhz pci-slot on non-agp *pci* mac g3 450mhz!!!!
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 01:47:26 PM »
By the way Chris what sata card/cards did you try to use?
Were any of them Seritek cards?

Thanks

jakl; it was the exact same as a "seritek 1s2" 32bit card..
the card works fine in any normal slot.. but i was testing to see if it could run at an enhanced speed
when inserted into a 66mhz capable slot.. but what i found was that the card didnt function at all
when put into this 66mhz video pci slot of the g3 powermac b&w.

i could try again, but i think the result would be the same, not sure why... maybe i could check the openfirmware
device tree to see if there is some huge difference between this slot and the other pci slots