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[Rainier]

Greetings

I'm enjoying my iBook immensely. Been reading too many pages here about SSDs on older Macs like the iBook.

I keep seeing references to the amount of heat produced, not by the SSD but by the voltage regulator.
The iBook has the original hard drive and maximum RAM. It's warm on the bottom surface.

Two and a half questions:

1. Is the heat I now feel generated by the CPU/GPU and/or RAM or the hard drive?
(I believe the hard drive is located at the bottom of the case, where it contacts my lap as in "laptop." Of course it's a major project to get in there. I think they built the machine by placing the hard drive on the table and then constructing the rest around it.)

2. Should I stop looking at M.2 SSDs and adapters due to their heat?
2.b  Has the tech improved so lower temperatures are now the norm?
 
Bonus question! Can anyone with an iBook recommend an SSD and adapter they've found works well?

Multiple thanks.
Rainier

[aBc]

Well I’ve not done this on my lowly 800 MHz G3 iBook (yet) but have considered it. Here’s a video from someone that has done it… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnFuhzBHZ2I and it doesn’t look quite as difficult as the more painful disassembly and installation in a G4 iBook. (If that’s any consolation.)

BUT - if I were to do this I would likely use the *Ableconn mSATA sled (as shown in the video) simply due to familiarity with the Ableconn and the fact that once installed, I wouldn’t want to “go back in”.

*Except for maybe the possible added heat retention of the chrome plated steel mounting rails of the Ableconn sled.

Then again, one of the “white case” (JMicron based) mSATA enclosures might work nearly as well as the Ableconn / and for less cost. [AND I do like the lower cost DogFish mSATAs.]

See: for reference… https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5955.msg52638#msg52638

As for other heat questions, I don’t really know. But then my iBook sits on a table nearby my daily driver and never actually sits on my lap. And much like my G4 Mac minis, this G3 iBook has four, 1/8” tall rubber feet attached so that it allows added cooling circulation / airspace when on a flat surface.

If you do undertake the effort, it might be interesting for you to run benchmarks before AND after the SSD transition for performance comparisons and post them here for others to then also consider.

[laulandn]

On older machines the IDE controllers are quite slow, so doing SATA via some sort of adapter is probably overkill for the cost, and won't get nearly the speed the drive is capable of.

An extremely cheap alternative that I did with my tibook was to use a tiny SD2IDE adapter and use an SD card.  I did this simply because the machine's original drive had died, and I didn't have any spare old laptop IDE replacements.  I don't know about speed, as I cant test the before/after, but it seems definitely "fast enough".  Compared to my ibook, the "feel" is about what I'd expect.  Who knows, maybe even faster? (Naw...can't be?)

[Rainier]

Thanks, guys. Helpful.

In reading varioius threads here, I notice that CF cards' weaknesses include susceptibility to damage/destruction from heat and perhaps a bit slower read/write. Worth worrying about? The iBook is not my primary Mac. Writing is the main task I ask of it. A bit of database building, but that's FileMaker 6, and I usually use more current versions.

Its main advantage is cost and simplicity.

SSDs have a higher level of complexity but are cheaper at 128Gb and above. I plan on putting in 128 either way. Reading the threads here, I'm a smidgen paranoid about the SSD to IDE adapter. I'd probably go with mSATA to IDE and not mess with NVME, M.2 and their ilk;

So now I'll debate all this for too long, ruminating and considering advantages and disadvantages. I'll be away from home for a bit in a week, so probably won't start iBook surgery until I get home.

Anything else I should be considering while I overthink this?

Again: many thanks.

Rainier

[Rainier]

Another question:

I notice when exploring the plethora of mSATA and M.2 SSD to IDE 44-pin adapters that some say "5 volts" others "3.3 volts."

I have no factory manual for the iBook (I always buy a factory manual for my motorcycles and cars. Not sure there is such a thing for an iBook?) Do any of you know the voltage going to the IDE port? Conversely: Do I want the 5 or the 3.3? Or both/either? (Some have switchable voltages.)

Thanks, in advance.

[aBc]

I notice when exploring the plethora of mSATA and M.2 SSD to IDE 44-pin adapters that some say "5 volts" others "3.3 volts."? -Ranier

I had the same nagging question which now seems like forever. But indibil recently offered me this clarification / explanation:

"I'll clear up your doubt about 5 V and 3.3 V:
2.5" HDs run at 5 V and 1.8" HDs, at 3.3 V. Both share the same connector.
So all Macs with a 2.5" drive run at 5V.”

Which maybe doesn’t help you in choosing which specific adapter you might want, but I’m still partial to the N-1801 “half-height” adapter (even if ssp3 maintains that they tend to run hot and are of poor thermal design). They do come with a plastic cover too… which you could drill holes into for venting if you so desire. (And possibly still partially use the HD mount brackets of the iBook.) AND there’s a voltage selector included (lower right corner, as pictured).



Compare it to the full-height adapter, also here in this post:
https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5955.msg52638#msg52638

But if you’re really concerned about mounting stability inside of the iBook, go with the full-height.

[Would like to see laulandn’s QuickBench 2.0 benchmarks… with his SD card.]

AND… https://macdat.net/files/pdf/apple/servicesource/ibook_g3_14_16vr-32vr-32vr900.pdf
OR… https://macdat.net/files/pdf/apple/servicesource/ibook_g3_12_nov02-apr03.pdf

[Rainier]

Again: helpful. To the point. No fluff. Clear. Cogent.
Again: Thank you!
I'll grab the manuals: thanks for the citations.
I've noticed the half-height adapters. Seems like less hardware is a virtue, as long as "less" doesn't mean "lesser."

[ssp3]

If one has two hands, a small saw and knows how to use it, it is a 5 minute job to improve cooling of mSATA and M.2 SATA adapters 
I've lost count how many of these I have made for various machines. Pics are from 2023, I think. There were other variations, but I can't find those photos anymore.

EDIT. I even used mSATA to M.2 SATA adapter to mount power hungry mSATA SSD on M.2 adapter, because it has voltage regulator with higher max current.

[Rainier]

I just ordered an mSATA 256Gb and a full size adapter. I was concerned about how I might attach the gizzie to the iBook and the half-card adapter wasn't cooperative about places to attach/screw holes.

Cutting doesn't scare me. Did you cut the case as well and were you able to screw the mSATA and carriage onto the subsurface using the case pieces at the attachment end and the other end?

[laulandn]

Was curious myself about just how fast (ie slow) my "cheap as chips" solution was.  This is from QuickBench 4.0 under Tiger on a 667 mhz TiBook.  Standard test 1 cycle only, async and cache effects unchecked...

   4 KBytes      8.277 MB/Sec      6.514 MB/Sec      2.481 MB/Sec      2.113 MB/Sec
   8 KBytes      12.273 MB/Sec     9.302 MB/Sec      5.606 MB/Sec      3.834 MB/Sec
  16 KBytes      15.732 MB/Sec     9.795 MB/Sec      8.607 MB/Sec      6.701 MB/Sec
  32 KBytes      16.561 MB/Sec     14.792 MB/Sec     13.345 MB/Sec     3.434 MB/Sec
  64 KBytes      20.828 MB/Sec     14.547 MB/Sec     15.879 MB/Sec     4.802 MB/Sec
 128 KBytes      21.464 MB/Sec     17.538 MB/Sec     17.440 MB/Sec     12.764 MB/Sec
 256 KBytes      21.374 MB/Sec     21.566 MB/Sec     19.627 MB/Sec     16.322 MB/Sec
 512 KBytes      23.203 MB/Sec     20.620 MB/Sec     21.610 MB/Sec     18.438 MB/Sec
1024 KBytes      23.585 MB/Sec     21.985 MB/Sec     23.039 MB/Sec     20.027 MB/Sec

Standard Ave     18.144 MB/Sec     15.184 MB/Sec     14.182 MB/Sec     9.826 MB/Sec

Did a minimal amount of looking around to see how bad these numbers are, and they seem super horrible...but hey, you get what you pay for!  (I think $15 plus random sd card I had laying around).

(Oh dang...I see some sata2ide adapters even cheaper!  What the heck am I doing...oh well...)

[Rainier]

I'm interested to see what my numbers will be...

[Jubadub]

@laulandn Yeah, SATA SSDs are the way. Anything else is slower (and not necessarily cheaper, like you saw, a mistake I also made at one point). People tested this extremely thoroughly over time, especially over at MacRumors PPC.

JMicron-based adapters are "fine", but anyone serious about their Mac OS rig should really look into Marvell-based ones (Ableconn being one of them, previously mentioned earlier).

[ssp3]

Marvell-based adapters are "one of the finest", but:
* they are 3 to 4 times more expensive than JMicron-based ones;
* they are mSATA only, and
* quality mSATA SSDs are difficult to find and they usually cost more than their M.2 SATA counterparts.

For most basic configurations - Minis, PowerBooks and TiBooks, JMicron-based adapters work just fine.

Note: By "quality" I mean brand name SSDs, including used ones, that have stood test of time. I am not touching chinese/counterfeit/AliExpress/Amazon etc. drives with a six foot pole.

[Jubadub]

@ssp3 Marvell ones are also available for 2.5" SATA drives. But yes, no M.2 available.

Reputable mSATA SSDs cap at 1 TB last I checked, but 2 TB for M.2 (rare, but exists). I have the former on the mini, and the latter (with JMicron) on the DLSD. Both work excellently for years, although I occasionally hear some "weird low noise" during internal I/O on the DLSD.

[ssp3]

I don't use anything larger than 128GB for OS9:
* because it is overkill,
* because small drives are always bootable, no matter what,
* because they draw less current, put less strain on power supply, generate less heat and don't drain your batteries that fast.

I am tired of repeating that largish SSDs draw more current than original rotating drives in Apple portables and Minis.
I'm also not sure if PB's and Mini's motherboards are designed for higher currents than Apple originally spec'ed.
Take a look at current consumption of various drives that I've pulled from PowerBooks and Minis.
0.46A, 0.55A and 0.7A !!!
Now go and check your SSDs.
And don't forget that adapters draw some current too.

[Jubadub]

@ssp3 Agreed on battery life, although I'd be surprised if a 128 GB SSD drew more power than a 128 GB HDD.

I notice the power issue when I plug-in to my DLSD my external FW 800 enclosure containing the 4 TB Samsung 860 PRO SATA III SSD, and, simultaneously, my external FW 400 enclosure containing the 2 TB Samsung 860 PRO SATA III SSD. The DLSD's screen, once booted into Mac OS X, simply goes black not too long after plugging both in simultaneously. That 4 TB drive is not even TLC, but MLC, which I'm sure adds to the power draw.

In practice, though, I know 1 TB MLC SSDs + Marvel adapter are 100% fine on the mini, even 1.5GHz model, so no problems at all in there. The DLSD's 2 TB M.2 is also just fine, but I never had a working battery with it (and was never able to source a replacement), but otherwise the additional power draw could make me reconsider just to prolong battery duration.

I don't find more than 128 GB overkill, though, my Diablo II installations alone are 100 GB (because I installed every possible version, and actually use my characters across multiple versions for various cross-version perks), but depending on how people use Mac OS, 128 GB can be enough, but not as a proper daily driver you put all your files on, IMO.

A properly-formatted / partitioned 2 TB drive will always boot no different from a 128 GB one, too. An improperly-formatted 128 GB drive will also not always boot. So I don't see any point there.

[ssp3]

..I'd be surprised if a 128 GB SSD drew more power than a 128 GB HDD.

Surprise, surprise 
I can post such pictures all day long.

In practice, though, I know 1 TB MLC SSDs + Marvel adapter are 100% fine on the mini

It's your Mini, do whatever you want with it. But, as they say these days - FAFO. (That's an EE in me speaking).

[Rainier]

Great discussion with civility maintained.

I went the cheap route on both adapter and SSD. If this were my only machine, I would pay the $40 for the Marvel chipset and stick with brand-name SSDs.

Unfortunately for me, my fifty dollar-bill printer has broken down and I'm stuck with the money I actually have.

I know it's a risk; there are plenty of anecdotes about the jMicron chipset failures and their shoddy construction. But I don't go to the horse track and always drive through Vegas and Reno when traveling their way, so this is a lower cost way to take a risk, to gamble.

I continue to learn from all you guys, those with a degree in electronics and those without!

Thanks, and enjoy the day.

[Jubadub]

..I'd be surprised if a 128 GB SSD drew more power than a 128 GB HDD.

Surprise, surprise 
I can post such pictures all day long.

Well, do color me surprised! I will keep this in mind at least in terms of battery life for laptops, if nothing else. Thanks for sharing this info!

I'm no EE, so I cannot really comprehend what measurable implications there are for using a 0.7A drive vs. a 1.5V drive. I don't know if this is so little as to "not matter", or very little as to "hardly make an impact even on battery life", or just enough to "lower half an hour of battery life", or big enough as to lower "2 hours from a battery that otherwise lasts 6 hours", and so on.

At the very least, however, I'd assume, and it would also seem, that these peripheral slots are designed to be able to handle even higher power draws than what the drives these computers originally shipped with draw? From bigger HDDs (e.g. 512 GB), to Compact Flash, to SSDs as we know them today, and so on?

We definitely could use more commentary on all this from an EE's perspective. Anyone knows these kinds of things in a nuanced level?

Now I wonder how much the 2.5" 4 TB Samsung 860 PRO SATA III SSD draws exactly... As well as its 2 TB counterpart. Yikes. It must be massive, probably unfit for external drive storage purposes (unless if powered via its own separate cable).

[aBc]

We definitely could use more commentary on all this from an EE's perspective. Anyone knows these kinds of things in a nuanced level?

Sounds to me like an entirely new (yet related) topic?
And an invitation to any resident EE to create it.