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[Bastet]

Good Evening

I resurrected an old Mac Mini G4 today with Ross's Mac Mini distro and had a problem that my little Linux brain didn't understand at first, i tried to run setting applications from Finder and got a strange error message, but it was my fault, you are supposed to open them from the settings menu in the Apple menu.

So i registered and even wrote a post asking about it, checking again if i did something wrong, when stumbling over the settings menu in the Apple menu i saw my error, not sending the post. Just for laughs i attach the error message. 

Now i only need to resolve a little chicken and egg problem, how to get StuffIt on the machine without having StuffIt. If Ross reads this, this would be a fine addition to your distribution, it is absent from the CD.

I live in Bochum, Germany, love to tinker with old tech and i want to use my little OS9 machine for some retro gamedev shenanigans now.

[Mat]

Well as my Mac OS 9 brain is struggeling every time I have to use Linux, I like to help in your opposite situation as far as possible.

you are supposed to open them from the settings menu in the Apple menu.

"Preferences" is nothing that you are using at MacOS 9. These are files where programs "write down" their internal preferences. You are altering these by the preferences dialogues inside the user programs, or from the OS' Control Panels or the program is just using "internal" preferences (like network, or serial numbers, ...).
The only thing you are doing usually with "preferences" files is to backup them in few cases, or to delete them when a program, driver, etc. went crazy. Usually it gets written new at new bootup of the system, or a restart of the program in question.

how to get StuffIt on the machine without having StuffIt.

The solution is an self-extracting archive ;) Start witht this Stuffit in ".bin format". It is the DL number 4
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/stuffit-expander-55

Greetings from Austria

[Jubadub]

Hi @Bastet, welcome!

I will try to guide you through some of your issues.

i tried to run setting applications from Finder and got a strange error message

Like @Mat pointed out, these files are not text files nor anything to be usually edited directly: it is the actual settings, as in, the settings values, of a given program, stored and used by the program in question. So for example "Keyboard Settings" are handled by the "Keyboard" Control Panel (a type of "app"), and if you want to change the settings, you do it through that.

but it was my fault, you are supposed to open them from the settings menu in the Apple menu.

Actually, there's essentially nothing that needs to be opened through the Apple Menu, since it's just a collection of shortcuts. Also, I assume you mean the "Control Panels" menu item, rather than "Settings"? There's no "Settings" menu item. Keep in mind just about any software, in Apple Menu or not, is eligible to create a settings file and store it in the "Preferences" folder.

Now i only need to resolve a little chicken and egg problem, how to get StuffIt on the machine without having StuffIt. If Ross reads this, this would be a fine addition to your distribution, it is absent from the CD.

StuffIt Expander is included in all of Ross' Mac mini G4 CDs, because it is included officially with Mac OS 9. Ross' CD is a CD to install Mac OS 9 with, and so includes helper apps to achieve that. The installation process is done through the restoration of a Mac OS 9.2.2 disc image, inside of which is StuffIt Expander and everything else. If you really want to use it without installing and rebooting into your newly-installed Mac OS 9 partition, then you can simply just mount the image that is used for restoration/installation, and find and use StuffIt Expander from there.

Hope this helps, and let us know if you need further help.

[Bastet]

Well as my Mac OS 9 brain is struggeling every time I have to use Linux, I like to help in your opposite situation as far as possible.

Been using Linux as my main OS since 2001, never got warm with Windows besides where i had to, ie. gaming, and was too poor for a Mac back then. The G4 i now installed we got for free when my fiances former company threw it out, they had used it with BitFonter to create fonts for various mobile devices back then, some holy "Don't upgrade!" machine they kept for compliance until that was from the table. Then my fiance had it in storage until i stumbled upon it and did the only reasonable thing a fiancee can do, that thing is now mine. 

My background, i got my first very own PC, a used 386 DX40, in 1992 when i was 8 and around 96/97 i was still using my trusty NovellDOS 7 and Geoworks Ensemble setup before i finally had to switch to Windows 9x.
Nowadays i have a bunch of retro machines running 98 or XP respectively but all my productive machines run some variant of Debian or Ubuntu, with my abused as a desktop Steamdeck running the later. Can't beat a modern system using just 15 watts max, especially with German energy prices. The whole setup with two screens and an amp uses ~35 watts on idle. ^^'

The only thing you are doing usually with "preferences" files is to backup them in few cases, or to delete them when a program, driver, etc. went crazy. Usually it gets written new at new bootup of the system, or a restart of the program in question.

Like @Mat pointed out, these files are not text files nor anything to be usually edited directly: it is the actual settings, as in, the settings values, of a given program, stored and used by the program in question. So for example "Keyboard Settings" are handled by the "Keyboard" Control Panel (a type of "app"), and if you want to change the settings, you do it through that.

Noted, so i can assume copying that directory is more than enough to back up all settings?

The solution is an self-extracting archive Start witht this Stuffit in ".bin format". It is the DL number 4
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/stuffit-expander-55

Yeah, already got that sorted out, Macintosh Garden might be a mess to comb trough if you don't know what you are looking for but it is a great archive.
I tried a timedemo of Quake 3 on the G4 to ballpark the performance and got a respectable 75 fps in 1024x768 32 Bit colors for a retro machine.

Actually, there's essentially nothing that needs to be opened through the Apple Menu, since it's just a collection of shortcuts. Also, I assume you mean the "Control Panels" menu item, rather than "Settings"? There's no "Settings" menu item. Keep in mind just about any software, in Apple Menu or not, is eligible to create a settings file and store it in the "Preferences" folder.

Oh, so like any modern OSes start menu? That raises a better question, how can one add a menu item to it?

StuffIt Expander is included in all of Ross' Mac mini G4 CDs, because it is included officially with Mac OS 9. Ross' CD is a CD to install Mac OS 9 with, and so includes helper apps to achieve that. The installation process is done through the restoration of a Mac OS 9.2.2 disc image, inside of which is StuffIt Expander and everything else. If you really want to use it without installing and rebooting into your newly-installed Mac OS 9 partition, then you can simply just mount the image that is used for restoration/installation, and find and use StuffIt Expander from there.

I couldn't find it and .sit files where not linked with any program.
In the end i found a version that was stored as a BinHex file, .hqx, and got it installed trough that.

Still find it funny that everyone had their own standard archive format, DOS/Windows people have mostly Zip, Amiga people have LHArc, Mac people have StuffIt, Linux people have tar.gz and so on.

Hope this helps, and let us know if you need further help.

There is one thing that would make me feel right at home in Mac OS 9, it would be nice to have an orthodox file manager, vernacularly called Norton Commander clone. Used these since my childhood and they are always a nice tool to have around for massive file operations.
What options does one have with that?

[Mat]

Noted, so i can assume copying that directory is more than enough to back up all settings?

Exactly. In fact you can do nearly everything by just copying the visible files. An OS backup, moving a installed program to another Mac, etc.

Oh, so like any modern OSes start menu? That raises a better question, how can one add a menu item to it?

Right. Just go to your Systemfolder, and place an Alias (=link, created easily by "ALT" +"COMMAND" + klick, move and release) of your programs or files you like to see in the menue into the folder Apple-Menue.

There is one thing that would make me feel right at home in Mac OS 9, it would be nice to have an orthodox file manager, vernacularly called Norton Commander clone.

Hmm, I have in mind that I heared from some KK-Commander clone for our system, but cannot remember correctly ritght now, as I never had any needs file-management direction, ...
Perhaps try some FTP programs? Or macintosh explorer with two opened windows? https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-explorer-43

Anyways I would suggest to try the onboard possibilities. For example you can sort the windows as lists, and open subfolders by klicking at the small triangle. E.g. "ALT" klick opens all subfolders of the folder (=down to the latest hirachy of the "path"). "COMMAND" klicking at the name of an opened window, shows you the hirachical "path". "ALT" closing a window, closes all opened windows of the Finder, etc. etc.

[ssp3]

There is one thing that would make me feel right at home in Mac OS 9, it would be nice to have an orthodox file manager, vernacularly called Norton Commander clone.

Geez... <insert facepalm here>
We, as in REAL long time Mac users, were proud that our OS didn't have that kind of crap! And, somehow, magically, we managed to get the work done without such things and bring the food to the table. From desktop publishing to music industry and anything inbetween. Think different! 

What options does one have with that?

Going back to Windows?

[smilesdavis]

dont let the grumpy old men distract you too much

welcome

[Bastet]

dont let the grumpy old men distract you too much

Nah, just doing what i learned in 30 years of being a netizen, ignore the unhelpful trolls.
Besides, everyone should use their computer how they please and the way that gets their stuff done, it is a tool and not a dogma.

welcome

Thanks <3

[IIO]

Now i only need to resolve a little chicken and egg problem, how to get StuffIt on the machine without having StuffIt. If Ross reads this, this would be a fine addition to your distribution, it is absent from the CD.

stuffit.sit and toast.toast are the running gags number one, and this usually happens to you when you urgently need these tools but had a blackout when making backups 20 years ago.

unfortunately for the stuff it method you always need their system extension (which only loads when rebooting), and there is no other alternative program who can deal with these files.

the mini CD should have stuff it engine - but only in the install, not when booting from CD.

[Bastet]

stuffit.sit and toast.toast are the running gags number one, and this usually happens to you when you urgently need these tools but had a blackout when making backups 20 years ago.

Sounds a bit like having a PKZIP.ZIP back in the DOS days. 

[Jubadub]

We don't need Toast to open .toast files though, as they are mere .iso files, and as extensions aren't a thing (per se) in Mac OS, you can open/mount either with Disk Copy 6 or Virtual CD/DVD-ROM Utility. Of course, Toast also works for that.

Stuffit.sit is another story, though. Generally not a problem since the "main" Mac OS versions come pre-installed with it, but otherwise, yes, it's joke-worthy. Then you may ask, "why do I want to download StuffIt Expander if I already have it anyway?!", to which the answer is "because you may want other versions so that you can handle other formats your version doesn't" and/or "to update it".

There are 2 versions of StuffIt "everyone" should have, and those are 5.5.1 and 7.0.3. When 7.0.3 is not good enough (which almost never happens, but SOMETIMES it does), then 5.5.1 may come to the rescue. If neither is good enough, then your file is corrupt or simply cannot be handled by ANY version of StuffIt, such as .sit files whose compressed file size surpasses 2GB (or was it 4GB?), which won't be opened even by OS X's The Unarchiver. Don't ask me how I know that... Still want to write a 64-bit (Int64 or UInt64) .sit decompressor (to be run obviously under Mac OS 9) myself, just to take care of that...

A 3rd StuffIt version of interest also exists if you are someone who wants to create files for versions of Mac OS that predate System 6, though: StuffIt Deluxe 4.0.1. That's the latest version able of creating "StuffIt 1.5.1" archives. Note that this requires DELUXE, mere Expander 4.0.x can't do that. In fact, this is THE way to create proper 1.5.1 archives without any particular limits, unlike when you create them using the StuffIt 1.5.1 app itself, which cannot pack up more than 1000-ish files (and is slow as hell). Also, for original 68000 Macs, Stufft 4.0.x as a whole is also the latest StuffIt, even on System 7, so that version range also is useful in those cases.

Every other version of StuffIt should be thrown away. Tested all of them myself very thoroughly, and documented most or all of my finding in the Garden.

[Bastet]

Shouldn't you stay away from anything larger than 4 GByte on 32 bit OSes anyway? On Amiga they even botched that back in the day and the OS trows a fit with anything above 2 GByte, used int32_t in the file system drivers.

I have simply thrown VCD on my real hardware and called it a day, works good from what i can tell.

Speaking of my real hardware, what SSD solution do you folks use? I thought about modifying the case a bit on the back so that i can use an SD2IDE interface that i can reach from the outside, i love it on my retro DOS machines and i would also love it on my retro Mac. Nothing beats taking your "harddisk" to your main rig and modifying stuff there, like backing up the whole machine as an image or shoving a bunch of games on there to play on the retro machine.

That is as long as Mac OS 9 won't mind that pesky removable disk bit... NT and above throws a hissy fit, haven't tested but expect OS2 to also not like it. Everything else i ran doesn't care.

And for the 64 Bit StuffIt, maybe you can also add your unsitter to 7zip, then everyone has something from it. As an example when on my main Linux machine i always have to spin up a Mac VM to reliably unpack one of these.
Would be great and would finally end that problem for everyone for good. <3

[IIO]

Stuffit.sit is another story, though.

too much details for a beginner.

as of today, the whole sit format seems outdated anway,  the only reason why one should use it is that it is perfect to denote that the content is OS9-releated and to to be sure how to open it - otherwise zip would be much faster.

i personally mostly make image files since many years. as you are free to call them like you want, you can c all them .toast to make clear that it contains OS9 content / that it is HFS+.

Shouldn't you stay away from anything larger than 4 GByte on 32 bit OSes anyway?

OS9 can work with files up to the maximum volume size, which is >2000GB.
of course there are other good reasons not to organize data collections like that, but if you think of  putting a huge sample collection into a monolithic file - or a BD-XL image - the need to handle 85gb long files is not unrealistic.

Speaking of my real hardware, what SSD solution do you folks use?

we once tested about 80 SSDs and 79 of them worked.

there are cheapo IDE adapters starting at 3.50 euro, there are adapters wich include an enclosure, and there are even PCI cards (yet those are hard to find or bastellösungen with custom drivers)

their throughput ranges between 40 and 110 gb/s, so it is in some cases not even as fast as IDE would be, the most important thing about SATA disks is that you can have brandnew products and up to 2TB of space (where IDE ends at 400 or 500 and are almost 15 years old.)

there are also small adapters from IDE to mSata or m.2, they are usually not the fastest but you might like the idea of using a such more versatile format.

[Jubadub]

THE reason we use StuffIt is because it handles the resource fork & other Mac-only data that other formats either don't

that can´t be the reason, because all other MacOS9 apps do that, too.

especially when you make zips with stuffit, but also compact pro, macrar and all that other minor rubbish.

the issue with .zip is only that later on you (or somebody else) wont know that you have to unzip it on OS9. i´d recommend against the use of macrar for the same reason, this time because it wont be compatible with most unrar apps on other OSes.

If one day we wrote an OS X .zip decompressor for Mac OS, however, then THAT would be awesome

the app which unzips OSX and windows zips in OS9 is called stuffit.

but we should of course always teach people new to OS9 to only compress OS9 files under OS9.

So by default, we share everything with ".sit", or the self-extracting ".sea" format. And if someone is VERY sharing-concious, they might look into the version 1.5.1 format

that stuff(sic!) is terribly slow, like 5 times slower than later .sit - i had quite some "fun" with those archives when i unstuffed our filesection.

oh, this just reminds me on something.

[IIO]

THE reason we use StuffIt is because it handles the resource fork & other Mac-only data that other formats either don't

that can´t be the reason, because all other MacOS9 apps do that, too.

especially when you make zips with stuffit, but also compact pro, macrar and all that other minor rubbish.

the issue with .zip is only that later on you (or somebody else) wont know that you have to unzip it on OS9. i´d recommend against the use of macrar for the same reason, this time because it wont be compatible with most unrar apps on other OSes.

If one day we wrote an OS X .zip decompressor for Mac OS, however, then THAT would be awesome

the app which unzips OSX and windows zips in OS9 is called stuffit.

but we should of course always teach people new to OS9 to only compress OS9 files under OS9.

So by default, we share everything with ".sit", or the self-extracting ".sea" format. And if someone is VERY sharing-concious, they might look into the version 1.5.1 format

that stuff(sic!) is terribly slow, like 5 times slower than later .sit - i had quite some "fun" with those archives when i unstuffed our filesection.

oh, this just reminds me on something.

[IIO]

i just destroyed jubadubs post by accident. we will see if you can revert it to what he actually wrote.

[Jubadub]

i just destroyed jubadubs post by accident. we will see if you can revert it to what he actually wrote.

I'd appreciate it if it was reverted to what it was, sincerely-speaking. A lot of good and important content was crammed into it, including Mac OS and SDL "game dev shenanigans" suggestions for @Bastet. Can't really trust the forum as a platform otherwise.

[Jubadub]

Edit: Oh, if I try to edit my destroyed comment above with a more appropriate placeholder, it creates a NEW post instead. Forum bug? Should either let me fix it, or warn that it cannot be edited, not post a brand new comment...

[Knezzen]

It's by design. So people can't edit their old posts. We've had a user that edited his or her old posts from many years ago, nuking all the content. This makes the threads more or less useless without the full context of things.

So mods and admins can edit old posts, "regulars" can edit their posts up until they are 24 hours old IIRC.

[Jubadub]

It's by design. So people can't edit their old posts. We've had a user that edited his or her old posts from many years ago, nuking all the content. This makes the threads more or less useless without the full context of things.

So mods and admins can edit old posts, "regulars" can edit their posts up until they are 24 hours old IIRC.

That's fine, but like I mentioned, it should then at the very least not create a brand new post, when attempting an "edit" elsewhere.