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[DieHard]

Just as a side note here as far as "Audio Recording Precision" there are many things that modern DAWs allow you to do like aux sidechaining with additional insert plugins added on the same channel strip that cause major havoc with the PDC (Plugin Delay Compensation) values, this causes timing issues with simple track playback and is unfortunately a major issues in Logic Pro 10.6.X and 10.7.x

Logic is now an absolute behemoth with so many new cool features, but it is no longer a modular DAW.  There is so much "built-in" that the bug lists for each version is growing, not shrinking.  I am guessing it is getting so complex that when they fix 1 item, they accidentally break 4 others.

So back to my point... if you are looking for precision when triggering real MIDI hardware and then printing to disk (audio track in DAW), then the older DAWs like SVP are a great way to go.  Less complexity in the DAW itself and less layers of API.

If you trigger external gear and record all tracks in the same way (same buffer, same sample rate, same depth, same interface), a simple offset should be the only thing needed to apply to keep everything super tight.  That being said, a "track stack" or layered sound of 3 or 4 really cool synth sounds should be layered as 1 stereo mix BEFORE the DAW and then recorded... use a mixer or if possible a multi-timbrel "Combo/performance" patch if you have that feature available (this avoids "phasing" on sounds that have a lot of movement and would be one solution); thus not dealing with trying to align the related tracks to sample accuracy in the DAW.

[GaryN]

yep, he records stuff track by track, then when you listen to everything together, the two groups of tracks are "split".

in cubase you would move the audio tracks into a "folder track", add 12 ms predelay to them and you´re done. in max i am delaying the midi vs the audio if required.

your story about clock problems because of temperature changes is somehow interesting, but seems a bit odd.^^

I may not yet be totally understanding everything, but his description of "layering" voices that can be degraded by undesirable… call it "interphasing" where the overall results can be altered by millisecond variables is a different method than just stacking tracks. He's intermixing and combining waveforms to yield a desired sum. The precision needed to keep that under control consistently seems like a different issue than everyday delay compensation and making sure everybody "starts together on the one" so to speak.

Internal computer clocks drift in teeny tiny amounts from all of the causes I mentioned. That's mainly because computer hardware - especially 20-year-old hardware was built to adequate standards for word processing, calc, etc. The build standards required for 90% of computer uses is not all that high. Then we came along and impressed music production on them. Then we forced them to do digital recording. Of course, worst of all, we started using them to look at kitty cats on the internet.

The less-than-perfect-accuracy produced by our hardware is not an issue 99% of the time. BUT, i can easily see a scenario where the system runs at 120.0001 BPM on Monday but at 120.0100 on Tuesday and maybe drifts a little to and fro on Wednesday. Now, synth voice you laid Monday and added another to on Tuesday are running ever-so-slightly out of sync on Friday – not enough to hear as out of sync, but maybe enough to slightly alter the combined sound of them played together so now you gotta futz with them.

If our stuff was all made by say, a co-venture of Raptor and Focusrite, the crystals that determine clock speed would have constant temp monitoring and control, really high-resolution displays, light-speed CPU, busses and lots of other Swiss-type precision goodies. The computers would also cost as much as a small house and so they don't have that precision that 99.9% of users don't need anyway.
 
gert79's only problem is HE is that remaining .1%……

If you trigger external gear and record all tracks in the same way (same buffer, same sample rate, same depth, same interface), a simple offset should be the only thing needed to apply to keep everything super tight.  That being said, a "track stack" or layered sound of 3 or 4 really cool synth sounds should be layered as 1 stereo mix BEFORE the DAW and then recorded... use a mixer or if possible a multi-timbrel "Combo/performance" patch if you have that feature available (this avoids "phasing" on sounds that have a lot of movement and would be one solution); thus not dealing with trying to align the related tracks to sample accuracy in the DAW.

GAWD! Sample accuracy? THAT would be, what? 44,100 times worse??

Anyway, I'm impressed that gert79 clearly knows what he wants and has a plan to get it by extracting every last bit of performance out of his "obsolete" Mac, DAW, interfaces and I was going to say synths, except those, just like old guitars, are never labeled as being "obsolete"… just "vintage".

Just like us…… 

[DieHard]

trying to align the related tracks to sample accuracy in the DAW

Haha, I knew someone would call me out, I was being a little facetious as usual, but it is fun stretching the waveform until almost flat and getting close.

[IIO]

I may not yet be totally understanding everything, but his description of "layering" voices that can be degraded by undesirable… call it "interphasing" where the overall results can be altered by millisecond variables is a different method than just stacking tracks.

it is almost impossible to understand each other when so many details can come to play, even is someone brings up a perfect description. but otoh, the basic "problem" is always made of the same 6 or 7 things and then one can make a checklist what someone and his software (obviously) do.

He's intermixing and combining waveforms to yield a desired sum. The precision needed to keep that under control consistently seems like a different issue than everyday delay compensation and making sure everybody "starts together on the one" so to speak.

i did not understand the screenshot either, but i thought that is because i dont know that program.

Internal computer clocks drift in teeny tiny amounts from all of the causes I mentioned.

in any case i would still use a singe sample click as test tone to test understand my system, and probably for majority of requirements just ignore any kind of inaccuracy below 3 ms you see while testing things.

Then we came along and impressed music production on them. Then we forced them to do digital recording. Of course, worst of all, we started using them to look at kitty cats on the internet.

yet a computerprogram used with the same IO and the same system audio and audio settings should have a constant roundtrip latency, measureable and compensable in whole numbers of samples (basically what diehard said). only all other components such as midi and midi devices should cause an irregular pattern.

they key is usually to find out under what circumstances you (or the thread starter) are having those "issues". as soon as there is a loop present in a system, everythign has to be locked to that loop. that can be impossible to do for certain setups.

when i think of what he (in case we got him right) does (and i´ve beeing doing that for years), it might be that he can forget to have already recroded and live triggered synthssizer in sync. but they should be in sync again, when everything has been recorded.

his screenshot told us that this was obviously not the case. i hate when my computers do something like that to me and i am glad he could get rid of it so easily.

[GaryN]

in any case i would still use a singe sample click as test tone to test understand my system, and probably for majority of requirements just ignore any kind of inaccuracy below 3 ms you see while testing things.

So would I but clearly my workflow and method doesn't require the extreme precision his does.

yet a computerprogram used with the same IO and the same system audio and audio settings should have a constant roundtrip latency, measureable and compensable in whole numbers of samples (basically what diehard said). only all other components such as midi and midi devices should cause an irregular pattern.

True… and one's car should start right up every morning as well and purr like a kitten but…… (there I go about kitty cats again…)

Personally, I'm glad to have had this mental exercise with gert79. It gives me another excellent example to wave in the faces of those who insist that our "ancient and primitive" Macs and software can't possibly perform adequately today.

[ssp3]

Then i took a midi cable and identified the wire that carries the midi out signal, this wire + shield i hooked up to the input of my soundcard.

Do you, guys, realize that this stunt (quoted above) that gert79 is trying to pull off will not work and those of you who are praising him for doing it are making fools of themselves?

Lets go thru this step by step and start with the most important question (#1) - what is the data transmission rate of MIDI signal?
(University of google has the answer).

Other parts later.

[IIO]

It gives me another excellent example to wave in the faces of those who insist that our "ancient and primitive" Macs and software can't possibly perform adequately today.

people with M3 audio workstations still whine about "latency" and "not enough power for 25 copies of zebra" and they still dont understand when to dither or what LUFS is.

the good thing about MacOS9 is that it does not have "KI mastering tools" or T2 chips.

mine has MPE though. and pluggo. and DVD-RAM. and the greatest modular sequencer ever built.

[GaryN]

Then i took a midi cable and identified the wire that carries the midi out signal, this wire + shield i hooked up to the input of my soundcard.

Do you, guys, realize that this stunt (quoted above) that gert79 is trying to pull off will not work and those of you who are praising him for doing it are making fools of themselves?

AGAIN??!! Didn't your mother ever quote the saying to you "If you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all?"

I know the topic got lengthy but if you had bothered to read, even speed read it before deciding to start dissing folks, you would have seen, among other things:

All of that said…… I must return to my previous observation:

While chasing after teeny, tiny little anomalies you call "jitter"…

You're attempting to conduct a precision test of both MIDI and Audio capabilities simultaneously and you're using the very hardware and software under test to display the results.

I honestly do NOT think this is a valid testing methodology. THAT said, I don't have a brilliant alternative that doesn't require a lab bench and precision testing analysis hardware.

BUT I'm pretty sure you're chasing a ghost here. THAT said, please keep us informed of your progress because unbelievably enough, I've been wrong before.

That's just ONE issue that was brought up. There were more if you bother to look.

You're resurrecting a subject that has already been 99.99% considered, discussed, debated and concluded AND as usual, you can't help but see it as an opportunity to insult the other members who – as hard as it may be for you to believe – are just as intelligent as you are… maybe more.

Please, do us all a favor and save the "other parts" until you develop some decorum.

[ssp3]

Didn't your mother ever quote the saying to you "If you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all?"

Don't try to hide the lack of knowledge or unwillingness to learn behind the personal stuff. Your posts are full of techical gibberish! They do more harm than good here.

[GaryN]

Didn't your mother ever quote the saying to you "If you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all?"

Don't try to hide the lack of knowledge or unwillingness to learn behind the personal stuff. Your posts are full of techical gibberish! They do more harm than good here.

All right… that's it. I am simply going to never engage with you in any way ever again, period.

You've been digging at me here and there for quite a while now You managed to pace 3 separate insults just into the single line above.
There's just ONE other instance of many shown below - and I've tried my best to be civil but that ends today.

I should have said this last year when you started calling me a troll just because than, as now, I had the gall to not accept every little thing you post as Gospel from on high.
Gospel from someone who evidently can't properly spell "technical".

I certainly don't need to explain myself to you, justify my participation here or seek your endorsement and/or approval. I try my best to be helpful, contribute what I can and and assimilate what I can from others here.

You want to keep calling me names? Stuff it up your egotistical ass.

This is now a complete waste of my time. Go play with your roomful of Macs and all of your keygens and kracked warez you so often allude to.

You no longer exist to me

[gert79]

Then i took a midi cable and identified the wire that carries the midi out signal, this wire + shield i hooked up to the input of my soundcard.

Do you, guys, realize that this stunt (quoted above) that gert79 is trying to pull off will not work and those of you who are praising him for doing it are making fools of themselves?

Lets go thru this step by step and start with the most important question (#1) - what is the data transmission rate of MIDI signal?
(University of google has the answer).

Other parts later.

The data transmission is fast enough to send one note on with 1mS precision.

[ssp3]

@gert79,

what kind of signal in each separate track are we seeing here? What does it represent? Would you care to explain?

[gert79]

This is a short burst of pulse wave on a Roland SE-02 on a very low frequency, but still audible as bass. The oscillator restart is not gate synced, that is why they are not aligned. I should have used some Akai sampler for more conformity but ultimately I was too lazy to dig it out from the garage.

[ssp3]

Is that a recorded thru audio interface MIDI signal or recorded analog signal?
Hoe were you recording your MIDI?

[gert79]

It's analog audio signal recorded.

Midi is not recorded, the notes that are output were set in piano roll.