Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[blaylok]

Hi there, Mac Noob here.

I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to setup an M Audio Delta 44 on my Quicksilver 867mhz under OS9.

I just can't seem to get any sound out of the breakout box no matter what settings I try. At times I can see activity in the Delta mixer/panel but just no sound at the outputs.

Recently tried a fresh install of the Diehard instant DAW img and another attempt to get the Delta 44 working - unfortunately the same  'no sound at the breakout box outputs', extra fiddling around in the Delta panel/mixer and the OS9 Sound Manager results in.either still no sound or a system freeze that requires a hard reset of the quicksilver.

I have tested the Delta 44 on my Windows machine and it is working fine.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

[DieHard]

Unfortunately, there are not too many things to try

Personally, I would trouble shoot like this...

1) Clean PCI edge contacts with contact cleaner (or eraser) or both and try a different PCI slot, make sure it is seated well
2) Make a clean OS install, load drivers form here
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4438.0.html
and then test via control panel

After that, if it is still not working, time to try another 44, here is one BRAND NEW, NO BIDS
M-Audio Delta 44 Digital Audio Sound Card (New in Box)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335011046322?hash=item4e0036e3b2:g:fnEAAOSwP4tk531n&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwKRiO48qhLA%2F41ayvgefrwGi9u1sng6HNZHsp5woJu6W2Fgaer%2F7fHIDwp1i4%2FxuF1mIPi8xDsms%2FlvolRKEKSlwx9h9THqMtK9Cju7VSTmw2JO%2FeFM2tWDwqLwJwS0h4QjaWetQQetvC9L%2BtnCQz%2FsEzChLWPgVJmZl0ZxeW1zHBTuQtJQmMk7Vwr8dbtXU5sUJJ445sp8JqQGJML7AVowMdeoTq61Q6aA%2F7GIVgI3Ks%2FWJTVK%2BMxK42ZJc%2FxjUFw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9yh-ODMYg

Or lastly go for a 2496 if you can live with 2-in/2-out and MIDI

[IIO]

we´ve had those back in the days and i can confirm that it should work fine with soundmanager and ASIO.

[blaylok]

Thank you for the advice Diehard I will give that try


Also thank you IIO for confirmation that it does work

[DieHard]

I hope you bought it, it sold for $.01 (One penny plus shipping)

[blaylok]

Sorry I missed out on it Diehard.

Just another question tho...

I read in some Macintosh system requirements for the Delta 44 that G3/G4 accelerator cards not supported,
I have a OWC Mercury Extreme G4 in my Quicksilver - could this be the issue that is preventing me from getting sound out of the breakout box?

Delta 44

Minimum system requirements (MAC) :are G3/G4 (accel. cards not supported) 500MHz, OS 9.2.2, 128MB RAM; OS X 10.1.5, 10.2.6 or greater, 256MB RAM, OMS 2.3.8 for MIDI under OS 9.2.2

[DieHard]

read in some Macintosh system requirements for the Delta 44 that G3/G4 accelerator cards not supported,
I have a OWC Mercury Extreme G4 in my Quicksilver - could this be the issue that is preventing me from getting sound out of the breakout box?

I doubt it, I think they are referring to actual PCI/CPU upgrade cards, NOT CPU upgrades, but I am not sure, never heard of any interface issues with a CPU/daughterboard socket upgrade

[IIO]

mine worked with an XLR8 G4 in an oldworld mac.

[GaryN]

Let's apply some logic:
* The 44 works in a different (Windoze) machine: Conclusion, it's a good unit.
* In the QS, the Delta Control Panel loads and displays but no sound.

You said you sometimes see indications of audio in the Delta display. Does that look like accurate audio or just random noise?
I don't see that you've indicated which DAW or such you're trying to use. Which is it?

My $$ is on the ASIO, or lack of it, or incorrectness of it. Why?

* In order for the Delta to work here, you must have the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW's ASIO folder.
* You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.

So, assuming that you (hopefully) got the Delta 44 ASIO along with the Control Panel and Extension, make sure that ASIO is where it's supposed to be in the DAW folder.

[IIO]

You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer.

sounds like something is seriously wrong on your computer.

[GaryN]

sounds like something is seriously wrong on your computer.

Really? I have a Delta 1010. I have previously had/used a Delta 44 and a 66 in my MDD and the 44 in my previous G3 Desktop with a Sonnet G4 500Mhz CPU.
There are combinations of DAWs, Delta ASIO drivers and OS9-running hardware that work with few or no issues and there are some that don't. That seems to be especially true when CPU upgrades are installed. I had/have Sonnets, blaylok has an OWC Mercury.

Often, everything purrs along smoothly until you happen to do something that makes the Mac want to spit out a chime or maybe you launch an editor that happens to be set to use the Sound Manager ASIO thru the Delta. Then, SM tries to grab and use the Delta while it's being held by the DAW. In OSX this probably wouldn't even cause a momentary hiccup, but in OS ≤9, it can cause a System hang… you know, one of those things that were supposed to be fixable by holding down the Command-Period key combination that never works. That's one scenario… there are others too. The simplest way to prevent them is to not have the SM ASIO in the DAW ASIO folder.

I know this because I've been there and done that… more than once.

Any more observations you need explained? 

[IIO]

Any more observations you need explained? 

i do not question your personal experience, but i question the reason you describe, because my experience is different and because there is no logical explanation for the issue.

multiple ASIO drivers installed with the same app should be unproblematic because they simply have nothing to do with each other. ASIO drivers are loaded one by one and if a driver is not selected as output driver, it is not connected to the app´s audio. ASIO drivers are also not not connected to each other in any way.

in cubase or nuendo you can switch between soundmanager and delta even while the program runs and there is no system crash, and some programs even ship with multiple drivers preinstalled. there is also no manual which would recommend against installing and using multiple drivers.

and it is totally useful to have ASIO soundmanager installed in all ASIO apps because that is your only chance to run 2 different programs at once when you only have one pro interface around. (might not be the case here of course)

[blaylok]

Let's apply some logic:
* The 44 works in a different (Windoze) machine: Conclusion, it's a good unit.

Yes the Delta 44 works fine on Windoze

* In the QS, the Delta Control Panel loads and displays but no sound.

You said you sometimes see indications of audio in the Delta display. Does that look like accurate audio or just random noise?
I don't see that you've indicated which DAW or such you're trying to use. Which is it?

Hi GaryN, thanks for your input and sharing of your experience with Delta Gear - So the indications of audio i have seen in the Delta display are definitely actual audio and not just random noise. As to the DAW - I have been using Cubase (from Diehard's instant DAW) and Recycle v2.0.

My $$ is on the ASIO, or lack of it, or incorrectness of it. Why?

* In order for the Delta to work here, you must have the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW's ASIO folder.
* You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.

Ok thanks for explaining that.

I have placed the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW (Cubase) ASIO folder and Recycle ASIO folder. I will try this again and make sure that the Sound Manager drivers are not in the same folders.

So, assuming that you (hopefully) got the Delta 44 ASIO along with the Control Panel and Extension, make sure that ASIO is where it's supposed to be in the DAW folder.

When you mention the 'Control panel' above - are you just referring to the Delta Control Panel or OS9 Control Panel?

[DieHard]

From IIO...

multiple ASIO drivers installed with the same app should be unproblematic because they simply have nothing to do with each other. ASIO drivers are loaded one by one and if a driver is not selected as output driver, it is not connected to the app´s audio. ASIO drivers are also not not connected to each other in any way.

OK, so I gotta kind of have to disagree with you on this statement... yes the statement "they simply have nothing to do with each other" is 100% correct; However, like show on the mini, Mac OS 9 apps (like Cubase, Nuendo, etc) love to grab the "Soundmanager ASIO" if there is not a previously saved ASIO in the preference file.... meaning, if it the 1st time launching the App, it is a great idea to ONLY HAVE THE CORRECT ASIO driver, by itself, in the ASIO folder. 

If the host DAW crashes immediately then you cannot select and then save the correct ASIO driver, and hence no saved preference for the ASIO driver, so even though they are independent, ALWAYS manually create and " ASIO Unused" folder and put everything in there except the correct ASIO driver.  I have also seen other apps grab the first listed ASIO driver when launching and then crash, so the general rule of thumb it is best NOT to leave unused ASIO drivers in your application's main ASIO folder (even if they are unrelated).  In a perfect world, like IIO said, you simply launch the app, select the right ASIO, and every subsequent launch loads the previous one selected, but this does not always go as planned.  Lastly, when opening old projects (done with a different ASIO driver) you can avoid crashes, because the app will prompt you to switch to the new one if it is the only one present in the main ASIO folder.

From Gary...

You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.

Yes, as stated, there is no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.  But to expand on this... there MAYBE a good reason to route the sound manager output internally into your interface. Many interfaces will let you route the OS "system sound" to the interface, so that you can here OS alerts and beeps without having to monitor your built-in mac audio out. This is very helpful, and is usually setup via the Mac OS 9 Sound control panel, one caveat, being, at times, you are relaxing an extremely loud "BEEP" can come through your audio interface, so set OS altert volume appropriately.

This is independent of the ASIO driver for the device, so, you still use the manufacturer's ASIO driver for the Host app, NOT system sound,  I am trying to clarify that these are two different things for the newbies. If you have a mixer, then route your 1/8" built-in jack to it so that you can adjust system sound easily, if not use the mentioned feature if you interface has it available.

[ssp3]

.... because there is no logical explanation for the issue.

What I've experienced on several occasions is that, when moving files between modern OSes and OS9, the files sometimes lose their 'type' and 'creator' attributes.
In such case DAW would not know what to do with such ASIO file, I guess.
IIRC, Mac generally recognizes file types by their attributes, not names, like it is on Win, OSX or other nix.

But yes, it's better to follow the 'best ASIO practices' as DieHard writes in the post above.

[GaryN]

Let's apply some logic:
* The 44 works in a different (Windoze) machine: Conclusion, it's a good unit.

Yes the Delta 44 works fine on Windoze

* In the QS, the Delta Control Panel loads and displays but no sound.

You said you sometimes see indications of audio in the Delta display. Does that look like accurate audio or just random noise?
I don't see that you've indicated which DAW or such you're trying to use. Which is it?

Hi GaryN, thanks for your input and sharing of your experience with Delta Gear - So the indications of audio i have seen in the Delta display are definitely actual audio and not just random noise. As to the DAW - I have been using Cubase (from Diehard's instant DAW) and Recycle v2.0.

My $$ is on the ASIO, or lack of it, or incorrectness of it. Why?
* In order for the Delta to work here, you must have the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW's ASIO folder.
* You should NOT have the Sound Manager ASIO driver in there too. There will be issues because Sound Manager and whatever DAW will bump heads and even crash the computer. There's no good reason to route your DAW's output thru the Sound Manager anyway.

Ok thanks for explaining that.
I have placed the Delta ASIO driver in the DAW (Cubase) ASIO folder and Recycle ASIO folder. I will try this again and make sure that the Sound Manager drivers are not in the same folders.
So, assuming that you (hopefully) got the Delta 44 ASIO along with the Control Panel and Extension, make sure that ASIO is where it's supposed to be in the DAW folder.
When you mention the 'Control panel' above - are you just referring to the Delta Control Panel or OS9 Control Panel?

I'm referring to the Delta panel. Since it IS showing the audio yet nothing is making it out of the breakout there may be a different issue.

This thread has been going 'round and 'round about multiple ASIO drivers. That can be and sometimes IS a real problem.
The farther we go however, the more I'm leaning towards the aftermarket CPU upgrade problem.

ASIO = "Audio Streaming Input Output"
The entire reason for its existence is to route audio around instead of through the multiple "layers" of hardware that would normally have to pass it thru. It is used to improve timing by keeping the CPU from having to spend time just shuttling audio bits around.

ASIO was originally written for older Windoze systems that were notorious for having horrible audio handling. It's not too much to say it was what made decent audio even possible on PC's. Because the old Mac OS had no pre-emptive multitasking, it too was lousy at handling audio so Steinberg wrote an SDK to help folks to adapt ASIO to the Mac as well. A couple of issues here:

* It was necessary for manufacturers of audio interfaces to write their own ASIO drivers. Some were better at it than others.
* An immediate problem developed in that this was around the time of OS8 and 9, which were near or at EOL while the digital interface "world" was really just getting into gear. Because of that, ASIO 1 soon became ASIO 2 leaving Mac OS9 in the dust. In fact, ALL old-Mac-compatible ASIO SDK updates ended with ASIO 2.3. So, there are multiple versions floating around, all poorly or UN-labeled and little or NO documentation.
* A big part of the problem was/is that Apple, with their usual finesse, said "Steinberg? Who needs Steinberg"? They then developed Core Audio for OSX and never looked back. Core Audio does everything ASIO does and arguably does it better on the Macs it was specifically written for.

SO…… WhereTF is he going with this? Easy: ASIO is a set of instructions for the computer being used and is tailored to that OS and hardware.
IF you change the CPU, you have to make small tweaks in the ASIO instruction set to accommodate the different characteristics of the new CPU. ASIO is all about data handling and timing so it needs to "know" what it's working with.

* My Deltas worked fine in my MDD until I installed the Sonnet CPU. Then, they stopped dead.
** I tried everything known to myself and anyone who would listen without success.
*** It was only when I got lucky and reached someone still working at Sonnet who had been there in "the old days" that the solution arrived. What was it, you say?

It was a customized ASIO driver that Sonnet had developed when they started getting complaints that people's interfaces stopped working when they installed Sonnet CPU's.

He had kept it at home and was kind enough to send it to me. Nobody else at Sonnet even had a clue about it… as I said, I got lucky.
I should mention that I didn't then and still don't remember having this issue with my old 500Mhz Sonnet in my G3 Desktop. That's partly what helped make me crazy when I had the problem in the MDD… I just never suspected the ASIO driver.
I of course made multiple copies of that damn replacement driver and stored them in different places.

**** I suspect that you just might have the same problem with your OWC CPU.

I have no idea exactly what the hiccup is. Since the objective of ASIO is to go around the CPU, you would think it shouldn't matter. However, there is a whole bunch of data handling that goes on right next to and around the CPU, and since most/all of these 3rd-party upgrades are basically the same family of IBM 7400-series chips overclocked to Warp speeds, I can imagine the ASIO routines expecting certain timings, buffering and whatever based on the chip identity and so being literally out-of-sync with the new CPU speed.

IF this is all correct, I have no good idea where to go or how to fix it. You can find current ASIO support for Windoze - there's even a site asio4all.org to customize your "new" Windoze driver, but not so much for our poor old "obsolete" Macs. If you have an original QS CPU, I would say put it back and see if everything starts working. If you don't, I'll dig out one of my old Delta 44 ASIO drivers that worked with my old Sonnet and post it for you to try. It can't hurt and maybe you'll get lucky too.

Meanwhile, I'll hope I'm completely out to lunch here, that there's a simple so-far-overlooked fix and this is all just a typing exercise… 

[DieHard]

Gary may indeed be right about the CPU upgrade

The only reason I was initially doubting this, is unlike the Sonnet, the Extreme G4 is a 7455 CPU that does not need a firmware patch.  Please post the speed/model of your extreme. 

I gave the extreme a shoutout here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3882
Quote from me:

After installing countless Giga Designs, PowerLogix, and  Sonnet CPU Upgrades over the years for clients, this baby deserves an honorable mention; like all 7455 upgrades, It require no system firmware patch at all.  As Mactron has mentioned, 7447A, 7448 and 7457s are a different story.

In addition, I did run a M-Audio 9624 in a QS with a G4 Extreme 1.467 and all was good, however all info is definitely pointing your issues to the G4 Extreme.  An very easy test would be to change the dip switches to a lower CPU speed (different multiplier); I have the chart listed on my Extreme post, maybe it will make a difference; if not, like Gary said, switch to the original CPU if you have it.

[IIO]

OK, so I gotta kind of have to disagree with you on this statement... yes the statement "they simply have nothing to do with each other" is 100% correct; However, like show on the mini, Mac OS 9 apps (like Cubase, Nuendo, etc) love to grab the "Soundmanager ASIO" if there is not a previously saved ASIO in the preference file.... meaning, if it the 1st time launching the App, it is a great idea to ONLY HAVE THE CORRECT ASIO driver, by itself, in the ASIO folder.

the content of the folder is completely irrelevant.

you can also remove all drivers and cubase will still start properly. it will correctly tell you that the chosen driver can not be used or found and switch back to soundmanager - or turns off audio features.

you guys do not understand that the installation of multiple drivers at once, so that you can change the IO device during work, is one of the three core features of ASIO.

this is why it cant be that it does not work at all, even if that is your personal experience.

If the host DAW crashes immediately

why would that happen? and it did not happen here. here we only have a nonworking delta.

then you cannot select and then save the correct ASIO driver, and hence no saved preference for the ASIO driver

why would that happen? why would it be a problem? if the prefs file has nothing selected, you can select things next time. if the interface is missing, the driver will not be selectable. if a driver is missing, you can select the interface.

that is basically what the ASIO folder is about.

it is best NOT to leave unused ASIO drivers in your application's main ASIO folder

if it is not required, dont install it, and you have one possible error source less. so far, so good!

but it is not us who decide which output devices somebody else wants to use, he can use what he wants.

and gary´s prophecy that a computer will immediately crash when soundmanager ASIO is installed is pure nonsense, which is not getting better when you try to "explain" it to me. (though the explanation has yet to come)

Many interfaces will let you route the OS "system sound" to the interface

soundmanger itself is also completely unreleated to the OPs problem with the delta.

and have you never had the need to run, say, cubase and sonicworx or maxmsp and peak at the same time and listen to it over the same speakers?

that is what ASIO is for: that you can use different interfaces at once.

the stoopid system sounds should be turned off then, of course. they only make the finder GUI slower anway.

[ssp3]

My 2 cents..
There are several ASIO SoundManager drivers out there. I have two. One is from 1996, the other from 1997. On TiBook 667 SpectraFoo analyzer crashes with Error 10 with earlier one, but works fine with 1997 version, so it's worth re-checking what version you have in the ASIO folder.

[DieHard]

the content of the folder is completely irrelevant.

Not a correct statement with the Mini G4

why would that happen? and it did not happen here. here we only have a nonworking delta

Yes, I am off topic, just giving sugestions, in case it's a wrong version of the needed ASIO for the Delta

From Sargie...

Sorry... my schedule has been crazy and I am traveling... So I haven't had too much time to try things.

However:

I followed DieHards advice and Cubase is now running!

I am not an expert with Cubase... but is there anything you'd like me to test to see how well this interface performs with the Mini from a DAW perspective?

I've got VST's playing via Midi and it seems to work just fine so far.

Best,

Sarge

Dear IIO,

I am simply trying to give the newbies with OS9 and ASIO some guidelines from real world experiences; in the scenario above (with the mini), the "moving the unused ASIO drivers" worked because the stock install of CuBase will attempt to load the soundmanager ASIO and crash without letting the user switch it to the correct one.  You are a great programmer (I love black and white) and you are right that 90% of the time it's a non-issue since the Charlie crew only had to deal with units made for OS9 and the built-in mac audio will normally allow CuBase to load and then you can switch the ASIO to your audio interface.

In addition, I have had Host apps crash that do not like a certain version of the ASIO driver (the M-Audio 2496 gives 3 different ASIO drivers... V1, V2, and Metro and you have to guess which one your Host likes). So I also use this trick to test each ASIO driver separately to find the best ASIO for each app. Again, I am not advocating deleting anything, so I don't get the adverse reaction to just have the tested good ones in the ASIO folder and save all the others elsewhere.

Sarge might have given up, if I did not give him that troubleshooting approach... just saying

if it is not required, dont install it, and you have one possible error source less. so far, so good!

Again, just guidelines since the ASIO driver might have to be "manually" dragged anyway and may have more that 1 version.
You are assuming the user knows which one is required... remember each app has it's own ASIO folder, that is NOT shared, you may have to copy the thing to 4 or 5 or more folders and use a different version depending on the host app.  Just trying to give a little depth to those who don't have your background and may not know how it works in OS9.

but it is not us who decide which output devices somebody else wants to use, he can use what he wants.

I am the ASIO God, they will use only what I tell them.... only kidding