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[macdougy]

Anybody doing a MacOS9Lives installation on unsupported hardware and too large of a harddrive knows the pain. Manage to get MacOS9Lives to boot off of the CD, but Drive Setup cannot see any partitions. OS X disk utility doesn't offer option because unsupported hardware. Attempt to drive face through brick to pacify.

I've seen whispers around the internet about "using scary terminal commands" to do this, and I wondered if anybody knows the sauce? If not, what might be some directions to start figuring that out?

And no, I don't have a natively OS9 compatible PPC mac to format the drive on, thanks for asking. 

EDIT FOR CLARITY:

I am trying to install MacOS9Lives on a FW800 Dual 1.25GHz PowerMac MDD with a 400GB HDD. I can boot MacOS9Lives CD and it can see the HDD, but not the partitions, since the Mac OS 9 drivers haven't been installed. OS X (10.4.6) installer disc (nor disc utility in installed copy of OS X) doesn't show me option to install the drivers when I use it since Mac OS 9 is not natively supported on that machine.

I don't have another PPC mac that natively supports Mac OS 9 at the moment, so I cannot easily reformat the disc / install the drivers that way. I've read online that one might be able to use terminal commands (I assume involving diskutil) to manually do this, but I haven't found what they might be yet, and I am wondering if anybody has the knowledge of how to do that?

[DieHard]

Manage to get MacOS9Lives to boot off of the CD, but Drive Setup cannot see any partitions. OS X disk utility doesn't offer option because unsupported hardware. Attempt to drive face through brick to pacify.

I've seen whispers around the internet about "using scary terminal commands" to do this, and I wondered if anybody knows the sauce? If not, what might be some directions to start figuring that out?

And no, I don't have a natively OS9 compatible PPC mac to format the drive on, thanks for asking. 

I am so sorry, but I have read this about 3 times and I am totally unclear what you are asking...

Do you have a PPC mac that is NOT OS 9 compatible ?  If so, what machine ?

Terminal commands... Are you talking about QEMU on a modern mac...
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6042.0.html

Do you mean open firmware commands ?

We are very helpful here, but you are going to have to get a little more specific

[macdougy]

Manage to get MacOS9Lives to boot off of the CD, but Drive Setup cannot see any partitions. OS X disk utility doesn't offer option because unsupported hardware. Attempt to drive face through brick to pacify.

I've seen whispers around the internet about "using scary terminal commands" to do this, and I wondered if anybody knows the sauce? If not, what might be some directions to start figuring that out?

And no, I don't have a natively OS9 compatible PPC mac to format the drive on, thanks for asking. 

I am so sorry, but I have read this about 3 times and I am totally unclear what you are asking...

Do you have a PPC mac that is NOT OS 9 compatible ?  If so, what machine ?

Terminal commands... Are you talking about QEMU on a modern mac...
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6042.0.html

Do you mean open firmware commands ?

We are very helpful here, but you are going to have to get a little more specific

I've updated the original post with all the details. Cheers!

[DieHard]

I am trying to install MacOS9Lives on a FW800 Dual 1.25GHz PowerMac MDD with a 400GB HDD. I can boot MacOS9Lives CD and it can see the HDD, but not the partitions, since the Mac OS 9 drivers haven't been installed. OS X (10.4.6) installer disc (nor disc utility in installed copy of OS X) doesn't show me option to install the drivers when I use it since Mac OS 9 is not natively supported on that machine.

That is not correct.  If you can delete/re-partition then... Try to setup OS9 First

1. Start up the computer from a Mac OS 9 CD
2. Open Drive Setup, which is normally located at in the Utilities folder in the "Applications (Mac OS 9)" folder.
3. Select the disk that you wish to make available.
4. Choose Update Driver from the Functions menu This message appears:
"The new driver will not be available until you restart the computer."

or...

Use a Leopard Disk (if you have one), from another member...

This also multiplied the work involved as I had to use a Leopard installer disc for the formatting as apparently Tiger's would not allow me to select "install OS 9 drivers", but Leopard's did.

[IIO]

if you have a fw-800 or if your computer only has 10.5.x (where disc util started lacking te OS9 driver support), you can do it by deleting at least one of the volumes on the disk using -w

 - find out which volume has which name
 - unmount the chosen volume you want to delete using disc util
 - then reformat using sudo newfs_hfs -w -J -b 512 -v name /dev/diskxxx

[macdougy]

if you have a fw-800 or if your computer only has 10.5.x (where disc util started lacking te OS9 driver support), you can do it by deleting at least one of the volumes on the disk using -w

 - find out which volume has which name
 - unmount the chosen volume you want to delete using disc util
 - then reformat using sudo newfs_hfs -w -J -b 512 -v name /dev/diskxxx

This is more in the vein of what I was going for.

However, it appears this doesn't make the partition readable for MacOS9Lives

It was the first partition out of 4, all smaller than 180 GB's.

[IIO]

the OS9 "harddisk driver" should make the whole drive available to OS9.

i can not really help from a remote and there are people here who know much more about this kind of thing.

[GaryN]

I'm not sure I have enough coffee in the house to make perfect sense of what's going on here BUT, maybe this will be helpful:

You cannot install OS9 disk drivers into a single partition. They must be installed at the disk root.
That means they have to be put there first before any partitions/volumes are created on the disk.
THAT means they are installed during the process when the disk is first initialized.

Does that help?

[IIO]

rumor has it that you can not install OS9 drivers at all without creating partitions,

to do it before erasing should be impossible.

but he should indeed try next to create only one partiion / erase the whole drive.

[GaryN]

rumor has it that you can not install OS9 drivers at all without creating partitions,

Don't know where you heard that one, but not true.
Disk initialization and partitioning are separate processes.
You init a disk first, installing drivers if desired, then partition it afterward but you are not required to.

[macdougy]

Alright, Mac OS 9 has been installed! But now I am stuck in _only_ Mac OS 9. Startup disc control panel doesn't do anything when I select leopard except make the system unbootable (fixable by PRAM reset, CMD+OPTION+P+R).

But for posterity: the magic sauce was the Leopard install disc after all. Disk Utility still hid the "install mac os 9 drivers" option when partitioning, but after some googling, I relied on some trusty Terminal commands (found here http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5345.0):

Code: [Select]

diskutil partitionDisk /dev/disk0 OS9Drivers HFS+ macos9 40G JHFS+ tiger 100G JHFS+ leopard 50G JHFS+ sorbet_leopard 50G JHFS+ shared 100G
Note, this do not work under the Tiger install medium (at least, as is).

Now the problem of being stuck in Mac OS 9! I used the bootscript trick described here: http://mac-classic.com/articles/mac-os-9-on-unsupported-systems/

Whenever I try to change startup discs (OS9 control panel), boot from startup manager (hold ALT/OPTION at boot), boot from disc (hold c) etc etc it never triggers the display. In fact, if I try and to boot from another method, nothing works until I reset the PRAM.

Thoughts?

[GaryN]

But for posterity: the magic sauce was the Leopard install disc after all. Disk Utility still hid the "install mac os 9 drivers" option when partitioning, but after some googling, I relied on some trusty Terminal commands
Thoughts?

My thoughts are: WyTF do people ask questions then not read the answers?

I wrote: "Disk initialization and partitioning are separate processes.
You init a disk first, installing drivers if desired, then partition it afterward but you are not required to."

Disk Util did not "hide" the OS9 drivers option while partitioning - it didn't allow it because it has to be done first.
Again, it has to be done first.  it has to be done first.  it has to be done first.

Otherwise, you eff up the disk and get unpredictable results exactly like you have now.

If you get a kick out of using Terminal, then learn it first. Otherwise, you're a monkey with a chainsaw.

[macdougy]

But for posterity: the magic sauce was the Leopard install disc after all. Disk Utility still hid the "install mac os 9 drivers" option when partitioning, but after some googling, I relied on some trusty Terminal commands
Thoughts?

My thoughts are: WyTF do people ask questions then not read the answers?

I wrote: "Disk initialization and partitioning are separate processes.
You init a disk first, installing drivers if desired, then partition it afterward but you are not required to."

Disk Util did not "hide" the OS9 drivers option while partitioning - it didn't allow it because it has to be done first.
Again, it has to be done first.  it has to be done first.  it has to be done first.

Otherwise, you eff up the disk and get unpredictable results exactly like you have now.

If you get a kick out of using Terminal, then learn it first. Otherwise, you're a monkey with a chainsaw.

I did read your post, and even took action based on it! At worst, I misinterpreted your words, but I honestly don't think I did.

You confirmed my suspicion that erasing a single partition wasn't going to solve it, since it didn't make sense to me that one partition could contain the information for how to read the other partitions.

After I read your post, I started to search for man pages that explained how

Code: [Select]

diskutil works, since I had a hunch that it is what powers Disk Utility. I came across this: https://ss64.com/osx/diskutil.html and https://www.unix.com/man-page/osx/8/diskutil/, which sparingly use that word. But I did read them, and learned that

Code: [Select]

diskutil once provided options for enabling the disk to be used by OS9.

That was confirmed by the tutorial linked here: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=5345.0

Put simply,

Code: [Select]

diskutil's

Code: [Select]

partitionDisk verb partitions the whole disk (the last partition soaks up any excess you didn't account for).

It wasn't clear to me from your original reply at the time, but if you intended for me to initialize the disk using the tool in the OS9 installer, my concern was regarding my harddrive size: 400GB is bigger than what OS9 can apparently instantiate on a MDD FW800. (http://macos9lives.com/mac%20os%209%20lives_003.htm). So I booted up my Leopard installer and used

Code: [Select]

diskutil partitionDisk, and installed Leopard, then finally successfully had the MacOS9Lives installer work, followed the instructions, and rebooted. Now I am here, where I can only boot into OS9.

Where do you feel I ignored your suggestions? I am gathering you wanted me to use the OS9 tool to initialize the disk first, but again, that wasn't clear to me.

(I really did not appreciate the tone of your post btw. I've read a lot and am piecing this together. I know I'll probably get stuff wrong, but thats the whole point of learning this stuff and documenting as I go along!)

[GaryN]

OK… I don't know for certain exactly is causing your current issue, where suddenly you can only boot OS9 BUT,
I'm certain it has something to do with throwing Terminal commands around and that they have upset the delicate balance of code at the disk root that allow booting both the old or the new systems.
This thread is titled "Installing MacOS9 HDD drivers using terminal in OS X"

There's no good reason for this. Why? Because you have the Leopard installer DVD.

All you have to do is:
1) Initialize the disk using the Diskutility app on the DVD, checking the checkbox labeled "Install OS9 Drivers"
2) Still in the Diskutility app, now partition the disk however you like.
3) If you want it, install Leopard now on whichever partition you want.
4) Now eject the DVD, and restart Leopard to make sure it works. Assuming it does…
   …This is the time to install the Leopard Combo Update. It will update 10.5.0 to 10.5.8 It's here: https://support.apple.com/kb/DL866?locale=en_US
5) NOW Reboot from the OS9 Installer disc and Install OS9 on its partition.
6) Enjoy your dual-booting MMD.

Note that all of the above is accomplished without once using Terminal. This is the way Macs are supposed to "just work."

Finally, and this is important:
Reboot into Leopard and go to "System Preferences / Spotlight." Under "Privacy", lock your OS9 partition out so Spotlight does not index it. If allowed to do so, Spotlight will write stuff in the OS9 Volume header that has a very good chance of eventually causing a serious conflict with OS9. There are threads here on the Forum explaining this.
* If you're going to use Time Machine for OSX, do the same thing with it. It won't make a good backup of OS9 anyway and will also corrupt the OS9 Volume Header. You need a different backup app for OS9. I suggest the app "Personal Backup"

[DieHard]

(I really did not appreciate the tone of your post btw. I've read a lot and am piecing this together. I know I'll probably get stuff wrong, but thats the whole point of learning this stuff and documenting as I go along!)

Please don't take things personal here, yes, we understand the learning process and it makes sense you will make mistakes; the only reason responses may seem a little curt at times is that often...

1) we are asked a vague question (for instance, I still did not know if you had previous important data on the drive or were able to wipe it and start over), then
 
2) we respond with a procedure list that is often modified or altered by the member that asked the original question

So, our frustration gets the best of us when members use our steps as kind of suggestion list and then throw other unnecessary steps in the mix.  It is certainly not your fault or ours that ancient OS software may be initially challenging.  I feel your pain, since I personally also like to analyze and understand what I am doing, rather than blindly following a bunch of steps without really understanding them.  That being said, you must understand that we always try our best here to give a concise and workable solution, and when that solution does not "work" because a member does some things suggested, but goes off into other directions/tangents and then re-posts that things are not working as expected, we kinda get upset more for the user, not for us

The main take-away here is...

Note that all of the above is accomplished without once using Terminal. This is the way Macs are supposed to "just work."

You see, many other people will find this topic, and they will read all these terminal commands and think "Wow, OS9 is a real pain in the ass"  Our site has become an important reference tool over the years since a ton of OS9 resource material is gone from the Web so it is crucial that we are accurate and provide simple roadmaps for the people new to OS9.

It wasn't clear to me from your original reply at the time, but if you intended for me to initialize the disk using the tool in the OS9 installer, my concern was regarding my harddrive size: 400GB is bigger than what OS9 can apparently instantiate on a MDD FW800

Again, we are not correcting you to berate you, but we have to keep the info. correct and this statement is wrong.  You can use a 400GB, 1000 GB or even a 2TB drive as long as you keep the OS9 boot-able partition less than 200GB.

From our site:

As far as the Mac OS revision, you will be stuck with Mac OS 9.2.2 only, as it contains Apple Drive Setup V2.1 that will be needed to format and partition drives greater than 128GB. We also recommend that you keep your partitions to sizes of 190GB or less or OS 9 will not boot and Norton Speed Disk V6.03 will not be able to defrag it. To clarify, if you are putting a 500GB in you Mac, simply break it into 3 partitions of 120GB for the OS, 190GB, and 190GB (format all volumes Mac OS Extended).

From Gary:

Finally, and this is important:
Reboot into Leopard and go to "System Preferences / Spotlight." Under "Privacy", lock your OS9 partition out so Spotlight does not index it. If allowed to do so, Spotlight will write stuff in the OS9 Volume header that has a very good chance of eventually causing a serious conflict with OS9

If you search our forum, you will find references that will help you avoid the headaches that come with a dual-boot system, as stated here, OS X does NOT play nicely with the OS9 file system and can lead to "betree" errors and other anomalies if one is not careful (see below)

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,5366.msg39372.html#msg39372

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2830.msg44116.html#msg44116

[GaryN]

Again, we are not correcting you to berate you, but we have to keep the info. correct and this statement is wrong.  You can use a 400GB, 1000 GB or even a 2TB drive as long as you keep the OS9 boot-able partition less than 200GB.

Thanx DH. I forgot to mention that.

[IIO]

Note that all of the above is accomplished without once using Terminal. This is the way Macs are supposed to "just work."

i am sure if that would really work on an unsupported machine and/or with 10.5, people would not ask how to do it in the terminal and we would not call them "unsupported machines".

[GaryN]

i am sure if that would really work on an unsupported machine and/or with 10.5, people would not ask how to do it in the terminal and we would not call them "unsupported machines".

Well, it does… and still they do.

Some folks come to the Mac platform and are temporarily confused by the basic simplicity of it all.

Apparently, some others remain that way.

[macdougy]

It's taken me a few days to get back around to this, but I am going to try to do everything exactly as you tell me. I've got a fresh slate to work with.

I will quickly note that managed to get the system out of the hell it was stuck in by unplugging the IDE cable from the HDD and wiping the pram (CMD+OPT+P+R for two chimes), then using a terminal on Mac OS X installation media (I have tested both 10.4 and 10.5, with both working) and ran

Code: [Select]

nvram auto-boot?=false
which reboots into open firmware, then entering

Code: [Select]

multi-boot
to allow me to select installation media or any installed os attached to the machine.

--

So my old factory Leopard installation DVD got smashed, literally last night - partner fell and crunched it in the process. I tried using a burned DL disc that my 2012 MB Pro can read no problem and it won't read on the FW800. I instead created a bootable USB with Leopard on it, and booted from that. Neither the Erase nor the Partition panes offered me the "Install Mac OS 9 Drivers" option, as seen in these photos:
https://postimg.cc/HrmjNrX9
https://postimg.cc/sBvzHz6J
https://postimg.cc/3y4MCBNS

So I rebooted into the MacOS9Lives CD to try to do DieHard's suggestion in the Disk Setup. It did not recognize the whole harddrive (only ~130GB), and did not offer me the option to install the necessary driver:
https://postimg.cc/SXMSNq6x

DieHard, to answer your early question, nothing on the disk is important to me. There is nothing to save.

I will note that I had to clear the PRAM again after booting MacOS9Lives. Otherwise the display never wakes up. This is weird, since it seems to overwrite the PRAM options I had previously setup. Same behaviour I observed when I installed MacOS9Lives and tried to change startup disk back to Leopard.

In summary, could the fact that I had to boot from a usb thumb drive have made the driver install option disappear?

[GaryN]

So I rebooted into the MacOS9Lives CD to try to do DieHard's suggestion in the Disk Setup. It did not recognize the whole harddrive (only ~130GB), and did not offer me the option to install the necessary driver:

OS9 drivers were built into and a part of the OS9-based Installer. They weren't optional then.

So my old factory Leopard installation DVD got smashed, literally last night - partner fell and crunched it in the process. I tried using a burned DL disc that my 2012 MB Pro can read no problem and it won't read on the FW800. I instead created a bootable USB with Leopard on it, and booted from that. Neither the Erase nor the Partition panes offered me the "Install Mac OS 9 Drivers" option, as seen in these photos:

This is more interesting… I'm going to guess that the drivers option doesn't appear because the Leopard Disk Utility "knows" you're trying to format a disk in a FW800 machine and that's not allowed - which is why there's a special OS9 System and Installer for it in the first place.

I think you'll have to:
A – Add another drive of 200Gb or less so that you can simply boot from the OS9Lives Installer and install OS9 to it directly. This would be the simple way

The only other way might be to:

B – Boot from the Leopard Installer stick Terminal app and first install the firmware patch that allows the FW800 to boot OS9, then attempt to format the HDD with the Disk Utility app. I'll note that:
1) I don't personally know exactly how the patch is written so someone else will have to provide it, and
2) It might not work to "fool" Disk Utility without a reboot in between and even then
3) It still might not work anyway so

I seriously recommend method "A"