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[supernova777]

OS9 POWERMAC G4 CHART
(excluding fw800 models that were previously thought not able to boot os9)


*agp macs below the digital audio model feature AGP 2x / digital audio and up feature AGP 4x

*As noted later in the thread there is a mistake in this chart (Based on a mistake int he info of everymac.com)
the 1.25 mdd single processor model does not feature 2MB backside cache

the 5 models that feature the 256k on chip L2/2mb backside L3 cache are:
1.25 DP MDD, 1.0 DP QS 2002, 800mhz DP QS, 933mhz QS, 867mhz QS
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_dp_mdd.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1ghz_dp_qs.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_800_dp_qs.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_933_qs.html
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_867_qs.html

450 DP, 500 DP, 533 DA feature no "on chip" cache
while the 733 QS, 800 QS feature no "backside" cache

the 3 macs with 167mhz bus are:
1.25 SP MDD (2003), 1.0ghz DP MDD (2002), 1.25 DP MDD (2002)



grey horizontal lines dont mean anything other then those are the particular models that i acquired

[MacTron]

There is a little error in your chart, I think.
The MDD 2003 1.25 single has 1Mb L3. Optionaly it could be purchased with dual 1.25 and this came with 2Mb L3 per CPU.

Only one dual 1.25 was made with 1Mb L3 per CPU and it came into FW800 models.
The others dual 1.25 have 2Mb L3 per CPU.

Those single and dual 1.25 that came with MDD 2003, alongside 1.42 from FW800 usually are 7455B and are the best for overclock. The others are 7455A.

I hope I explained well. May be a bit confusing...

You can add to the chart −if you like− :
− Digital Audio and QuickSilver don't have native audio imput.
− From Gigabit onwards all have 24v line for ADC.
− Only MDD and QuickSilver have AGP 4x and 48bit support for HD ( on QuickSilver this is only on the last models)

[supernova777]

There is a little error in your chart, I think.
The MDD 2003 1.25 single has 1Mb L3. Optionaly it could be purchased with dual 1.25 and this came with 2Mb L3 per CPU.

Only one dual 1.25 was made with 1Mb L3 per CPU and it came into FW800 models.
The others dual 1.25 have 2Mb L3 per CPU.

Those single and dual 1.25 that came with MDD 2003, alongside 1.42 from FW800 usually are 7455B and are the best for overclock. The others are 7455A.

i will double check!

− Only MDD and QuickSilver have AGP 4x and 48bit support for HD ( on QuickSilver this is only on the last models)

I would guess the Dual 800 QS And the 933 QS....... (the units with same cpu type as MDD : "7455")

err so wait.. the 867mhz QS is AGP 2x?? not 4x?
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_867_qs.html <-- this says 4x
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_733_qs.html <-- this says 4x
oh wait.. u meant ATA-100 disk ! not 4x.. ok.
everymac says that no qs has ATA-100.. maybe the 48-bit support was added initially in ATA-66 connection? and is not documented clearly?

[supernova777]

hmm i was just offered a 533 digital audio that isnt booting up properly for $20 (1 beep, which means bad ram)
clearly his power supply works.. so what i was thinking is to put my QS 867mhz inside the Digital audio 533mhz board + case
to have my 867mhz cpu + 2mb L3 cache.... and have a working machine again and still have 4 pci slots..... fixed for $20  is not bad



theres no way i would want to modify the psu to QSpin out

actually they are pretty damn close!!!!!!
the extra 4 pins at the bottom, is this soley for the extra cpu power to the chip do u think?
I think the +25v line goes to the monitor...

[supernova777]

There is a little error in your chart, I think.
The MDD 2003 1.25 single has 1Mb L3. Optionaly it could be purchased with dual 1.25 and this came with 2Mb L3 per CPU.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_mdd.html this page says 2mb L3 Cache..
is it everymac who is wrong?

[MacTron]

There is a little error in your chart, I think.
The MDD 2003 1.25 single has 1Mb L3. Optionaly it could be purchased with dual 1.25 and this came with 2Mb L3 per CPU.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_mdd.html this page says 2mb L3 Cache..
is it everymac who is wrong?

Yes.
http://support.apple.com/kb/sp106

[supernova777]

so..
in retrospect 5 models only..
the only g4 macs that had 2MB L3 CACHE:
ranked from slowest to fastest cpu power:


single cpus:
-G4 867 (QS) (2001)             133mhz bus >>> 487
-G4 933 (QS) (2002)             133mhz bus >>> 550

dual cpus:
-G4 800 DP (QS) (2001)        133mhz bus >>> 670 (335 per?)
-G4 1.0 DP (QS) (2002)         133mhz bus >>> 854 (427 per?)
-G4 1.25 DP (MDD) (2002)    167mhz bus >>> 1078 (539 per?)


so in conclusion the 2002 1.25ghz dual processor MDD is the fastest stock os9 computer ever made
the only 167mhz bus + only one with both 2MB L3 Cache as well as ATA-100 disk speed access
on the main IDE bus

addendum:
ive just rechecked the fact that the Sonnet Encore (Single) CPUs feature level 3 cache up to the 1.4ghz models
here are the infos / part numbers from the pdf:


SG4-1000-2M  1.0 GHz 256KB 2MB
SG4-1200-2M  1.2 GHz 256KB 2MB
SG4-C1200 1.2 GHz 256KB 2MB
G4-1400-2M 1.4 GHz 256KB 2MB
not sure what the diff is between the two 1.2ghz models
with this new (old) information.. does this mean the 1.4ghz sonnet is the fastest single g4 cpu that also has 2MB L3 Cache?
perhaps.

**** remember these SONNET cpu upgrades being compatible with 100mhz + 133mhz fsb g4s EXCLUDING the MDD of course:
Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics)
Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)
Power Mac G4 (Digital Audio)
Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver 2001)
Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver 2002)
Power Mac G4 Cube*
Macintosh Server G4

perhaps this whole "Cube" enthusiast movement relies heavily on the fact that the g4 cube could be upgraded to 1.4ghz sonnet cpu with 2mb l3 cache

[MacTron]

so in conclusion the 2002 1.25ghz dual processor MDD is the fastest stock os9 computer ever made
the only 167mhz bus + only one with both 2MB L3 Cache as well as ATA-100 disk speed access
on the main IDE bus

...and not very well known: double PCI Bus!
One PCI bus inside the U2 uninorth for Ata 100, gigabit Ethernet, AGP (4x) and Firewire, and all those subsystems with DMA to DDR RAM!! and the other PCI Bus for the other components: Ata 66/33, USB, PCI slots...

[supernova777]

wouldnt this double pci bus be on the other mdd's aswell tho? (ie: any MDD that has ATA100 as well as ATA 66?)

[supernova777]

***update
i was in contact with kyle brock of everymac.com today and he thanked me for informing him of the 1mb l3 cache on 2003 1.25 mdd..
after i showed him this apple update + thread so the info is corrected now i think on everymac.com listing

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_mdd.html

[supernova777]

just a note: the 2003 1.25ghz mdd (1mb L3 cache, incorrectly reffered to as 2MB) is noted as achieving a score of 727 on the above chart.
i have acquired one of these machines and just silenced the fans in the psu and u can check its score
on my geekbench account: http://browser.primatelabs.com/user/chrisnova777/geekbench2
(click geekbench2 scores tab) and you will see this machine scores 779 and 780 consistantly when i test it.

[supernova777]

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php?topic=389.msg409#msg409

here i've created a chronological chart to view the new world rom powermac desktops
ordered by release date
 

[supernova777]

[supernova777]

i really need to update this chart to include the g4 fw800 models now i guess huh?

of the fw800 models, do any of them have 2MB cache? (i forget)

[Apfel]

per your question on what QS models have the 128GB HDD limit:

there was once one page on this site, which listed the part numbers of the logicboards and the specific models in which it was put in.

I remember that page had all info one need at first to get started with OS 9 installation. It had a picture of a coffin and a HDD with an orange 9 on it and other nice icons.
I don't know, where that site has gone, but there you would find the answer.

Also, the reintroduced Single 1,25GHz MDD of 2003 was available BTO with DP 1,25GHz and still OS 9 bootable, would that very last DP model (without FW800! Though 2003) have the L3 cache, too?


Edit: found it differently and in another place:
QuickSilver 733, QuickSilver 800, QuickSilver DP 800, QuickSilver 867, QuickSilver 933, QuickSilver Dual 1 GHz with logic board 820-1342-B (QS logic board 820-1276-A will NOT work and peak out at 128 GB),

[DieHard]

Also, the reintroduced Single 1,25GHz MDD of 2003 was available BTO with DP 1,25GHz and still OS 9 bootable, would that very last DP model (without FW800! Though 2003) have the L3 cache, too?

Both models of the dual 1.25 MDD FW400 of course had the L3 Cache...but the amount of L3 cache is what started the debate

The Original Dual 1.25 Ghz. (2002 thru Jan 2003): http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_dp_mdd.html
Built to Order Dual 1.25 Ghz. (2003 Thru June 2004): http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.25_mdd.html

But the distinction is that this later re-issued model (2003 thru Jan 2004), only has 1 MB cache per CPU whether it is a single CPU model or a Dual Built to Order model, still only 1 MB cache per processor.

Now as discussed in previous posts, there are different reasons why many members here have either swapped out the stock 167 Mhz Bus compatible CPU, or overclocked it. 

Users that are OS9 only may choose a single CPU; depending on the DAW host application, a single will run both cooler and more stable (with some OS 9 based applications), so the optimal CPU (without overclocking) is the fastest single with the most cache...
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/xserve/specs/xserve_g4_1.33.html
Rip one out of an Xserve G4 1.33 and BAM... single cool CPU, runs at 1.33 Ghz. and has 2 MB Cache
Or overclock a stock single CPU to 1.5 Ghz

...While users that use both OS X and OS 9 will opt to rip a Dual 1.42 Processor board out of a FW 800 and put it in their 2003 MDD
and BAM, Dual 1.42 Ghz monster with 2 MB cache per CPU

[Apfel]

Thanks!

I didn't mean that it doesn't have L3 cache at all, but if the 2003 MDD Dual 1,25GHz reissue BTO version had the 2MB L3 per CPU, i.e. 2x2MB L3.

...

Users that are OS9 only may choose a single CPU; depending on the DAW host application, a single will run both cooler and more stable (with some OS 9 based applications), so the optimal CPU (without overclocking) is the fastest single with the most cache...
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/xserve/specs/xserve_g4_1.33.html
Rip one out of an Xserve G4 1.33 and BAM... single cool CPU, runs at 1.33 Ghz. and has 2 MB Cache
Or overclock a stock single CPU to 1.5 Ghz

...While users that use both OS X and OS 9 will opt to rip a Dual 1.42 Processor board out of a FW 800 and put it in their 2003 MDD
and BAM, Dual 1.42 Ghz monster with 2 MB cache per CPU

Let us see, if I understand, what you are saying:

We have (all ever built):
August 2002
1. Power Mac G4 867 DP MDD, 133Mhz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
2. Power Mac G4 1.0 DP MDD , 167MHz FSB, "
3. Power Mac G4 1.25 DP MDD, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per Core
January 2003
4. Power Mac G4 1.0 FW800, 133Mhz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
5. Power Mac G4 1.25 DP FW800, 167MHz FSB, "
6. Power Mac G4 1.42 DP FW800, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per Core
June 2003
7. Power Mac G4 1.25 MDD ("reissue"), 167MHz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
8. Power Mac G4 1.25 DP MDD BTO ("reissue"), 167MHz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
Xserve
9. Xserve G4 lower than 1.33GHz, 133MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per core
10. Xserve G4 1.33GHz Dual and Single, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per core


So, if I want to have the best OS 9 machine:
a) get "7" = 1,25GHz G4 single, 167MHz cache, 1MB L3 cache and overclock to 1,5GHz (to get highest CPU clock + highest FSB)
b) get "7" and put in "10" = Single 1,33GHz G4 Xserve CPU, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per core (to get highest CPU clock + highest FSB + biggest L3 cache)

So, if I want the best OS X + OS 9 bootable machine:
a) take CPU from "6" and put in 2, 3, 7 or 8
b) second best, take CPU 1,33GHz Dual out of Xserve and put in 2, 3, 7 or 8 (but will run cooler.


The Xserve CPU runs cooler at a similar clock speed, is it not slower? if we can trust Geekbench, I mean a 2x1,8GHz 7447 is just as fast as a 1.42GHz DP 7455...:
Looking at geekbench (all Dual CPU):
Xserve 1.33: 1200
PM 1.25: 1074
PM 1.42: 1224
-> Hm, seems not, if we can trust geekbench.

[Mat]

We have (all ever built):
August 2002
1. Power Mac G4 867 DP MDD, 133Mhz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
2. Power Mac G4 1.0 DP MDD , 167MHz FSB, "
3. Power Mac G4 1.25 DP MDD, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per Core
January 2003
4. Power Mac G4 1.0 FW800, 133Mhz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
5. Power Mac G4 1.25 DP FW800, 167MHz FSB, "
6. Power Mac G4 1.42 DP FW800, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per Core
June 2003
7. Power Mac G4 1.25 MDD ("reissue"), 167MHz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
8. Power Mac G4 1.25 DP MDD BTO ("reissue"), 167MHz FSB, 1MB L3 per Core
Xserve
9. Xserve G4 lower than 1.33GHz, 133MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per core
10. Xserve G4 1.33GHz Dual and Single, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per core


So, if I want to have the best OS 9 machine:
a) get "7" = 1,25GHz G4 single, 167MHz cache, 1MB L3 cache and overclock to 1,5GHz (to get highest CPU clock + highest FSB)
b) get "7" and put in "10" = Single 1,33GHz G4 Xserve CPU, 167MHz FSB, 2MB L3 per core (to get highest CPU clock + highest FSB + biggest L3 cache)

I do not understand. Why are you excluding all DP machines for OS 9 completely? OK the system isn´t using the 2nd CPU but some applications like Photoshop can. And still the 2MB cache are there for the CPU in permanent use.
So as stock machine 3 should still be the fastest for native Mac OS 9 boot.
As modded machine a 3 or 7 with a 1,42CPU from 6 should be the fastest native Mac OS 9 bootable machine.

[Apfel]

I do not understand. Why are you excluding all DP machines for OS 9 completely? OK the system isn´t using the 2nd CPU but some applications like Photoshop can.

Because DieHard said

Users that are OS9 only may choose a single CPU; depending on the DAW host application, a single will run both cooler and more stable (with some OS 9 based applications), so the optimal CPU (without overclocking) is the fastest single with the most cache...

and I was assuming that the OSX+OS9 reccomendation by DieHard can be used for OS9 Dual CPU usage, too - i.e. the recommendation for OS-X + OS 9 would be the same as for a User who e.g. uses Photoshop in OS 9, only.
(is it "was assuming" or "assumed"?)

[GaryN]

I may be crazy, but doesn't Digital Performer utilize both procs on dual machines in OS9? I seem to recall them bragging about that in an ad...?

Anyone?