Author Topic: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)  (Read 152754 times)

supernova777

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Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« on: November 20, 2013, 05:02:58 PM »

This thread is about buffing your disk speed by
running your os off a more modern hard drive, connected via more modern technology then what was available
when the mac was built!

we can do this by using a pci card that provides a few (usually 2) sata ports
a number of companies produce these cards but just a few create cards that have firmware
designed to boot on an os9 system.

Sonnet Tempo Serial ATA


OWC SATAPCI2P (discontinued)

Serial ATA 2-channel PCI controller card for Apple/mac
http://eshop.macsales.com/tech_center/manuals/sata/owcsatapci2p300.pdf

Ratoc REX-PS30X

http://www.ratocsystems.com/products/subpage/ps30x.html
http://altern8.envy.nu/alt8/mac/nitro/rexps30x.jpeg
more ratoc os9.2 gear: http://www.ratocsystems.com/products/ostaiou/macos922.html



Ratoc REX-PCI15S
http://img1.kakaku.k-img.com/images/productimage/fullscale/05676010424.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/n6tcv78
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%A9%E3%83%88%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B7%E3%82%B9%E3%83%86%E3%83%A0-SATA-PCI%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89-REX-
PCI15S/dp/B000GIWUK4
sells for 3,528 yen (around 39 dollars)

Mathey MSATA-P02MAC


http://www.mathey.jp/news31027-2.html
more mathey products: http://www.mathey.jp/SerialATA.html
http://asashina.ikeriri.ne.jp/blog/ja1uvg.php?itemid=2301

(shows a mac compatible 2 port card with SST bios chip)

Siig SC-SA4011 (not sure if bootable, but i saw a 2006 article comparing this with the owc card above )


seritek 1s2

http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-1s2/
http://eshop.macsales.com/search/FirmTek

acard 6290m (2 sata / no raid but still mac os 9 bootable)

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816123109

acard 6890m (pci raid controller raid0,1 mac os 9 bootable)


Raid0 / Raid1 mode switchable via dipswitches | supports mac os 9 / mac os x
manual: http://dl.acard.com/manual/english/aec-6890m.pdf

WiebeTech TCS1-1 / WiebeTech TSC2-0 (reffered to as the "teracard" i think?)

http://www.shoplet.com/Wiebetech-llc-WiebeTech-2-Port-Serial-ATA-Controller-TCS1-1/2U94412/spdv
http://www.amazon.com/WiebeTech-TC-PCI-4S-4-Port-Serial-Controller/dp/B000MYGW6K
http://web.archive.org/web/20060411204215/http://www.wiebetech.com/home.php



siig products circa 2006
http://web.archive.org/web/20060813200727/http://www.siig.com/productList.asp?catid=4

avlabs: http://www.avlab.com.tw/sata/sata.htm

these cards will provide much faster disk performance then using the native IDE ATA bus.

to take this a step further some cards were designed to combine two disks into one in os 9. Acard was one of such companies though their cards were not produced in that great a number and they are discontinued now and hard to find.
for reference purposes here is a link to a page describing this acard model that provides both SATA + RAID for OS9.
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816123111R



below you can see some data benchmarks i found just now doing a search.. ive linked these via google translate as they are originally posted in japanese!

page 1:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.ca&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ato-net.jp/column/SATA_bench/SATA_bench.html&usg=ALkJrhhRd5G3NMvNtk7h8kbiaPGnT0X5FA

page 2:
http://translate.google.ca/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fato-net.jp%2Fcolumn%2FSATA_bench_2%2FSATA_bench_2.html&act=url
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 01:09:35 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Mat

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2013, 03:16:43 AM »
What I was asking myselve for a long time now, is if there is any SATA Card that can utilize the entire PCI-X bus of the later G4s with its 64 Bit and 66MHz, what would mean 500 MB/s, ... ?

Does anybody remember what of the bus is slowed down if I put a 33MHz 32 Bit card inside a PCI-X slot? Was it the widht or the speed? And is it correct that it nevertheless should stay at 266MB/s even with a 33MHz/32 Bit card inserted in one slot?

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 08:09:54 AM »
im wondering if the sonnet tempo with the 2 internals can make 2 2tb drives available under os9

supernova777

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 11:30:24 AM »
im wondering if the sonnet tempo with the 2 internals can make 2 2tb drives available under os9
i have the box in front of me let me check the back:

-easy installation
-compatible with most pci power macintosh computers
-48-bit LBA support for drives larger than 137gb
-Supports Mac os X raid features
-supports booting frm any attached drive
-transfers data at 1.5gbps per port

thats all it says

supernova777

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supernova777

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 11:47:44 AM »
it might work with 2TB drives but u would have to format them + set them up with osx disk utility in panther or tiger (10.2 or later)
and you would have to make a number of 190gb partitions for the data to be seen from inside os9.
that would mean 10 partitions per 2TB drive.. adding up to 20 Partitions.. its almost not worth the effort  + risk
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 11:49:19 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 11:48:35 AM »
that means i better follow my first idea and get a scsi raid which can have more than 1tb (but in a external case)

supernova777

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 11:50:47 AM »
why not just use a different computer for a file server that runs osx or something and use ftp
or DAVE to connect. i connect to my windows 7 raid using DAVE and it works fantastic

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2013, 11:52:11 AM »
as i mentioned before my mdd has 2 500gb drives and a 400gb drive in it the original 80gb is my os 9.2.2 and 1 500gb is for osx 10.5.8 as long as i have os9 drivers checked by creation i can see them and use them. 1 problem i have is stability issues but i cant tell if it is from the large partition or something else. i have crashes here and there sometimes just by right clicking and need to turn off the machine to reboot. as far as i know i have not read alot about anybody else having these symptoms.

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2013, 11:53:54 AM »
why not just use a different computer for a file server that runs osx or something and use ftp
or DAVE to connect. i connect to my windows 7 raid using DAVE and it works fantastic

my issue here is most of the software i use is not for networking made like my media 100 system. or even protools they recommend starting with a basic config and only add what you need in extensions. xsan would be interesting but doesnt seem to work under os9 when it comes to the managing part. i just started using timbuktu to remote control my xserve but my stability issues gave me a headache so far.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 11:56:07 AM by devils_advisor »

Offline Mat

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2013, 02:01:07 PM »
1 problem i have is stability issues but i cant tell if it is from the large partition or something else. i have crashes here and there sometimes just by right clicking and need to turn off the machine to reboot. as far as i know i have not read alot about anybody else having these symptoms.
That is exactly what I often had with "dual boot" Macs. My experiance is that X makes 9 unstable. And it was why I kicked every X and stay with pure 9 Macs, with a lot less problems.

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2013, 02:55:17 PM »
Since i cant use partitions with more than 190gb what about a scsi raid? Im need space to store my video clips of a dv cam.

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2013, 03:51:23 PM »
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21924

check that out

from what i understand os 9.2.2 has to be on a smaller drive or partition but when you are in os9 only your controller is the limitation. but i been reading so many different answers i guess trial and error is the only way.
my mdd is the last one who can boot into os9 without using classic.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 03:59:53 PM by devils_advisor »

Offline DieHard

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2013, 10:56:12 PM »
There are several things to keep in mind about the overall purpose of the system...

If it is a going to be used as a file server... then sticking a bunch of bus mastering PCI SATA cards (RAID or otherwise) in a G4 is just peachy, but if the unit is going to be for Audio or Video and will have a PCI Audio interface, UAD-1 Card, Powercore Card or PCI video capture card, then building a fast HD system that produces Audio Pops or Video drop-outs because of the RAID or SATA card then all this extra speed becomes useless.  In other words, there is a limit to the amount of data that can be juggled around the PCI bus, and even though there are 4 PCI card slots, this does not mean that all combinations of filling these slots will play nicely together, so you have to prioritize what is the most important cards that are going to be used for the overall functionality on the system.  Some combinations that I have tried with no issues are... DA or MDD with (1) M-Audio 2496 or Motu 324/424 Card with (1 or 2) UAD-1 or PowerCore PCI cards, I have also used FW interfaces with SATA PCI cards and had no issues, I have been up many a late night when trying to combine HD SATA PCI cards with Audio or Video Capture cards and have had some real headaches.

In a DAW environment, the SSD Drives that I use from OWC connect directly to the ATA-100 bus (via an included SATA to PATA adapter)...

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDMXLE120/

These drives boot Mac OS 9 in about 9 to 11 seconds and I use them for my OS, Apps, and Sample Libraries... and use 500 GB 7200 PATA IDE drives for Audio Projects.

Chris, one other note is non-SSD drives (both PATA & SATA) drives differ greatly in Speed and Cache... the smaller size drives like the 80GB may have as little as 8MB or 16MB cache so they will be a lot slower than another drive in its class that is larger (like a 500GB with 32MB cache)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 11:07:18 PM by DieHard »

Offline Mat

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 04:21:55 AM »
DieHard, as you use the OWC SSD, could you post a picture of the IDE to SATA adapter? I was always interrested what kind of adapter they are using, and where it might fit or not, but there is no information anywhere, so a photo would be of high interrest.

Offline MacTron

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 08:20:59 AM »
The MDD PCI bus is 64 bits or 32 bits and 33 Mhz. this allow a Max bandwidth of 133 MB/s (32 bit) or 266 MB/s (64 bits). All the SATA PCI cards for Mac os 9 are 32 bits. This allow a Max bandwidth of 133 MB/s. This fact and sharing the PCI bus with other cards (like in/out audio and DSP cards) let this SATA cards low room for improvements.
The ATA/100 in the MDD is direct connected to the UniNorth. Not sharing PCI bus bandwith allows the IDE/SATA adaptors be a no so bad option, and the cheap and easy choice.

I been using for several months −whith good results− one like this:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-PATA-IDE-TO-Serial-ATA-SATA-Interface-Hard-Drive-Adapter-Converter-/300945676416?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item4611c29880
http://dx.com/p/rxd-629a-parallel-pata-to-serial-sata-hard-disk-converter-green-black-white-165213

alongside a Samsumg 128 Gb SSD.


It would be interesting to see some test results with those SATA cards against this adaptors.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 11:04:23 AM by chrisNova777 »
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Knez

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2013, 08:50:00 AM »
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kingspec-16Gb-40Pin-Ide-Mlc-Dom-Disk-On-Module-Ssd-/380803218617?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item58a9a3fcb9

I use one of these with great success in my MDD. I have the 32gb version and it works great with all the apps installed. It allso has a 500gb 7.2k rpm drive for recording. You have to remeber how big the hard drives where around 10-12 years ago, 32gb for system+installed apps is more than enough. I think I use up around 7gb in total with Classilla, Reason 2.5, Pro Tools TDM 5.1.3, Logic 6 and alot of plugins installed.

I have the 16gb 2.5" version in my Atari Falcon, and it works just great there too. Awesome piece of hardware :)

supernova777

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2013, 02:00:06 AM »
thats not what i read in the technote that i pasted it said that its an os limitation that it wont recognize partitions bigger then 190gb

i would like to know the definitive answer on this..

Knez

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2013, 04:35:38 AM »
thats not what i read in the technote that i pasted it said that its an os limitation that it wont recognize partitions bigger then 190gb

i would like to know the definitive answer on this..

190gb is definitely not a OS limitation. I use my 500gb drive with OS9 and it works like a charm. Initialized and formatted in OS9 as well, and it found the whole drive without any issues.

Offline devils_advisor

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Re: Disk Speed Upgrades (aka The Bootable PCI SATA & SSD thread)
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2013, 04:56:43 AM »
all i found was the start disk has to be at the begin of a hard drive just like windows in the old days. once you started you can have a certain amount of partitions and they can be big. look at the avid raids. i think its a combination of os and controller.