Author Topic: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors  (Read 14359 times)

supernova777

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having been reviewing my machines that i own (both mac + pc)
i have been collecting each machines TDP (thermal design power) stats..
now i had thought originally that this meant exactly how much power the cpu draws.. but it turns out
its actually a combination of heat & power consumption... (maybe even more about the heat, then the power but
thesenumbers are linked dynamically, one goes up, so does the other)

why am i concerned about this? well power consumption is a big deal..
if i can save money by utilizing lower power computers to run 24/7 as my servers then thats of interest to me!

now i found this page
http://everythingapple.blogspot.ca/2004/07/contrary-to-popular-myth-g5-is-not-hot.html

which has some numbers cited.. not sure of hte exact source of this info
Code: [Select]
G4 7455 (180 nm) 1.0 GHz: Typical 15 Watts, Max 22 Watts
G4 7455 (180 nm) 1.33 GHz: Typical 30 Watts, Max 40 Watts
G4 7447A (130 nm) at 1.42 GHz: Typical 21 Watts, Max 30 Watts
G5 970 (130 nm) 1.8 GHz: Typical 51 W, Max ??? (est. 90-100)
G5 970FX (90 nm) 2.0 GHz: Typical 24.5 W, Max ??? (est. < 50)
G5 970FX (90 nm) 2.5 GHz: Typical 50 W, Max ??? (est. 90-100)

obviously this doesnt cover all the types of powerpc chips (listed in our powerpc g4 chart http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=578.0)

it also excludes some of the other types, the 7400 (sawtooth), 7410 (Digital Audio), & 7450(DA/QS) aswell as the 970MP final edition G5 chip
i was wondering if anyone else has any more information regarding this to compile as a reference

i was suprised to read that my powermac g5 1.8ghz supposedly draws only 40-50watts for the cpu
but then again it is only a single processor.. but thats still not as bad as i thought this machine's cpu
would be something like 95watts at least!

but if these numbers are correct.. and the 1.0ghz 7455 cpus only draw 22watts well then thats realy great!!
these are very low numbers in contrast with socket 775 intel core duo systems which are rated at 65w + up..

also intersting to see that the 7447A processors are using 130nanonmeter architecture down from 180nanometer for the 7455 chips
and that the 7447A use the same architecture (130nm) as the first g5 cpus (970)

im interested to know the power consumption of my g3 450mhz .. topic was touched upon before by Dane D in this thread: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=592.0;nowap

ok checking this thread i see mactron posted some info

Code: [Select]
Mode 1.0 GHz Unit
Core Voltage 1.0 Volt
Max. Power 13.9 Watts
Typical Power 9.5 Watts
Sleep 6.0 Watts

10 watts!! thats amazingly low... if true, then the g3 450mhz makes a wickidly cheap AFP server
but that is for that special 1ghz newer version of the g3..
im interested in finding out the numbers for the 450mhz g3 B&W http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g3/specs/powermac_g3_450_bl.html

« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 03:16:26 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2015, 02:47:59 PM »
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA23546?viewlocale=en_US

these numbers are far different... :( or are they? this is measured actually from the entire machine i think.. and the other numbers are for the cpu alone?
*confused*




supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 02:57:46 PM »
still searching for more info, i find this thread: (my comments in blue)
http://ppcluddite.blogspot.ca/2012/07/power-consumption-on-power-macs.html

Quote
But this article (referencing the article i just posted the images from above) at Apple's website was a real eye-popper, and not in a good way . (you can say that again!!) The MDDs are practically just as power hungry as G5s. The single processor 1.25 GHz G4 MDD (2003) which was the last Mac to boot OS 9 wasn't so bad. It idled at 80 watts, but the others, particularly the dualies, all idled at 130-150 watts. (OUCH!!) That's asking for a pretty big hit in the wallet when the power bill comes.

You have to go back to the Quicksilvers and Sawtooths to find Power Macs that idle in the 50-75 watt range, (i need to find this information somewhere!!) and it also so happens that those models are much more reliable than what followed. So if you're looking to utilize a server with multiple drive bays, those might be your best options.

wow!!! if this is true.. then perhaps the quicksilver really is the best mac os 9 machine!!!!!!!!! if this info is correct, the mdd's suck ALOT of power!!!! we all remember diehards reccommendation to go for the single cpu models for stability.. perhaps power consumption played a factor??
what i dont get is, what about cpu upgrades? how would they affect power consumption?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 07:07:48 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 03:05:20 PM »
investigating further, i find this video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gju5colGDeU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gju5colGDeU</a>

so from the video, it basically said that his mdd uses 220watts? for both the box + the crt monitor.. but we dont know which mdd he has, whether its a dual or single processor.. the duals being much more costly in power consumption..

i may have to get one of these to get any definitive answers!!!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 08:28:13 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 04:00:30 PM »
wow so i guess i should be running my fileserver from a freaking lowpower laptop... thats alot of watts :o

lets compare the above data with these:

mac mini : http://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201897?viewlocale=en_US
imac : http://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201918?viewlocale=en_US
mac pro : http://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201796?viewlocale=en_US
xserve: http://support.apple.com/en-au/HT200237?viewlocale=en_US
xserve g4: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA26888?viewlocale=en_US
xserve g4 slot load : http://support.apple.com/kb/TA27031?viewlocale=en_US
xserve g5: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA27171?viewlocale=en_US
xserve 2006: http://support.apple.com/es-mx/HT2764?viewlocale=en_US
xserve 2008: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA25163?viewlocale=en_US
powermac g5: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA27205?viewlocale=en_US
powermac g5 early 2005: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA23542?viewlocale=en_US
powermac g5 late 2005 : http://support.apple.com/kb/ta24037?viewlocale=en_US
ibook g3/g4: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA24638?viewlocale=en_US

wow, 2014 mac mini idles at 6w.. thats alot less power then 150w ;/
if u wanna save money on power.. the mac mini cant be beat apparently
any of the mac minis seem to be really great on idle power consumption .. excellent in fact.. the 2009+ models are about 50% the cost (16 watts?) of the earlier powerpc models (32watts?).. which is impressive.

now this video from ibookguy makes more sense
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG4Tge11GOo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG4Tge11GOo</a>

alot of the mac minis have low ram capacity though? but maybe not..
according to this page alot of them can take more ram:
http://www.everymac.com/actual-maximum-mac-ram/actual-maximum-mac-mini-ram-capacity.html
starting with the "core 2 duo" models they can actually get 4gb using higher capacity chips then
told by apple..
2009+ models can take 8gb even though advertised as 4gb max
and mid 2010+ models can take 16gb even though advertised as 8gb max

this is making me want a 2009 mac mini! with 8gb ram idling at 15 W would be excellent for my needs! but you would have to account for the power consumption also of any external drives or raid array etc so would it even be worth it? to switch to a mac mini? not sure..

ibook's also very low on power consumption!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 02:48:29 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2015, 07:08:01 PM »
looks like i found some numbers for a single 1.8ghz g5, albeit the 2004 model, not the 2003 model which i have but i guess thats close enough?



this is closer to what i thought was the case for this machine... omg.. fully loaded max. 552w!!!!!!! yikes

at least the idle cost of the single 1.8ghz g5 is less then the g4 mdd dual 867 by 10 watts!!!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 08:24:55 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2015, 01:17:52 PM »
so .. i went out and picked up an energy monitor like the one in the video above..
it wasnt even that much $$.. cost me 19.99
so im going to get busy with some tests..

perhaps someone can suggest what i can do to test "stress" condition?
macbench?

 :D
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 01:37:35 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 01:36:48 PM »
my first reading:

Powermac G4 Quicksilver 933mhz (single processor)
installed devices:
Geforce4MX
Digi 001 interface
Acard aec-6885M IDE controller
griffin gport serial adapter
60GB IBM "deskStar" hard drive (i need to replace this ASAP! lol)

Idling at: 90 watts
during macbench test it stayed about the same! 91 watts
ok i saw it go up to 96watts during the intense graphic tests
fairly certain the score would be alot lower without the DIGI001 also being powered from the qs

retested without the DIGI 001:
Idling at: 75 watts
so i guess the digi 001 has an energy cost of 15 watts roughly
i have a small Acer AL1706 lcd monitor that i also tested to be about 15-16 watts (for perspective)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 07:59:08 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2015, 02:11:57 PM »
Powermac G5 (2003) 1.8ghz (single processor)
Radeon 9800 Pro Graphics
1 sata drive
6GB DDR400 ram installed

idle: 135 watts
while the machine was starting up i saw it go as high as 170W and bounced around for a bit between there and 135W before settling finally at 135W

sleep mode: 8 watts !!!! (not bad not bad!!)

i will have to do more tests to see how much power this thing sucks back when in full operation
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 04:02:44 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2015, 02:25:36 PM »
Powermac G4 MDD (2003) 1.25ghz (single processor)
radeon 8500 agp gfx
1gb sdram installed
3 x delta 410 pci cards
200GB Maxtor Diamondmax Hard drive
firewire/usb card (geethree sweethub card)

Idling at: 69 watts !!!! lower then expected
sleep mode: 11 watts

very happy with this result!
i will have to do the QS without the digi 001 to see how much power the digi 001 was adding to that 90 watts total
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 05:05:12 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2015, 07:05:16 PM »
some other results for those interested

Early 2008 24" iMac
Idle: 102 watts

Aopen AX3S-U w/ Pentium III-S 1.4ghz
Radeon 7500 Agp
1 IDE hard drive 80gb
Idle: 70 watts
(i was hoping this number would be lower... because of all the articles i had read praising this highest model of intel pIII for being lower wattage then all of the pentium 4's while out performing the lower end p4's....but i guess the mobo/ram/system components still have power requirements which brings up the watts from the supposed 30-40w for hte cpu)

Asus P5B Deluxe /w E4300 Intel Core 2 duo
/w 4 x 1TB drives
(nas4free server)
Idle: 102 watts



great to see these numbers.. i guess the concerns arent that great for most people to be concerned with.. but if u have like 5 pc's on at once like me, well things can get out of hand fast!!! :)

i will try to get numbers for the B&W g3 + Sawtooth eventually aswell.
curious to see if those will come short of the 70watts range.. or be about the same.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 09:08:29 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2015, 01:20:09 PM »
ok, more results!!!!!
Powermac G3 B&W 450mhz
/w 2 x gina 20 bit pci cards
original ati rage graphics pci
*3* hard drives installed
aec-6880m RAID controller pci

Idle: 62 Watts

Powermac G4 Sawtooth 450mhz
Geforce4MX
2 Hard drives
sata sil3112A controller PCI

Idle: 62 Watts

both of these are running mac os 8.6
interesting to note these are both the same in power consumption.. even tho the one has 2 audio cards installed plus an additional hard drive
the sawtooth had 2 delta 410's but i pulled them for testing purposes in another machine

maybe as far as the power draw goes.. its more about the actual PSU then whats plugged into the machine?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 01:54:42 PM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2015, 02:13:42 PM »
ok and finally results for the Dual mdd

Powermac G4 MDD Dual 867Mhz
Radeon 9000 AGP
1 500gb Sata drive
sata sil3112a controller pci

Idle: 105 watts

it would be great to figure out if its entirely the second cpu drawing the power that makes the difference..
if diehard could do a test on one of his xserve cpu modified mdd's that would be almost another reason to
go for an xserve cpu swap.. to get the power consumption down to 70watts down from 105.. is it worth it?
saving 35 watts power per hour? or watever?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 02:29:44 PM by chrisNova777 »

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supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2015, 04:07:19 PM »
Did you tested in OS9 or in OSX with nap enabled http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20071101231643321
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/feedback/MDD_CHUD_feedback.html

i tested by powering up the machine period.. the macs were booted to os9.. i havent tested nap mode but ive read it can do alot,
but doesnt it basically disable the 2nd processor?

but its kinda hard to test nap mode when im not using osx lol

ive just tested another slot 1 pentium III 700mhz board (440bx) and its only pulling 45w idle
so im kind of interested in the software that diehard spoke of with a PIII serving many clients
either that or the g3 or sawtooth are low coming in around 62w


supernova777

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2015, 03:15:31 AM »
i gotta say i have a newfound apprecition for good power supplies too..
i cant believe that my system is feeling so much more snappy now that i changed from a 300w to a 500w power supply
(talking about my windoze box)

i always thought that a power supply was a power supply blah blah blah and that it was a ripoff to buy a 500w+ power supply
but yea it seems to have made a difference!

really sucks that apple had to use specialized power supplies.. yea obviously i know theres hacks to make it work but it would be
so much more easier if u could just swap in a modern psu without any huge headache


Offline Apfel

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Re: TDP (power consumption & heat) of powerpc g3 / g4 / g5 processors
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2018, 09:19:43 AM »
(I know the thread is old...)

A better PSU can do good to a Mac, too.

Why is that?
Newer models have active PFC along other technology and are more effective. You will usually look at the powergraph and choose a PSU that has it's most effective powerdraw in the range where the Mac is running at most of the time. E.g.: when your Mac is drawing 80W most of the time, you will choose a new PSU, that shows it is most effective arround 80W. Effective meaning creating as few heat as possible at the given Watts, i.e. where the fewest power is converted into excess heat that goes up in the air instead of being used by the computer itself.

Also, changing the PSU for a more effective one can make your Mac run cooler. (The excess heat is not building up in the case, no matter that the PSU has its own fan).

Also, when you heat up the PSU it uses more power. How's that? put in a weaker case fan, the result will be, that the heat that can't be taken away will heat up all parts including(!) the PSU. In this case the PSU is not heating up itself by doing its work, but is being heated up by the air in the Mac.
A PSU draws less power with a better fan, than with a worse fan.

Now there is an additional factor to look at. Apple decided to use the PSU as the main exhaust port for the heat (from CPU, GPU, HDDs etc.). This is especially the case with the QS. The result is, that the PSU is unnecessarily heated up on top of the heat it produces itself. A dumb decision by Apple in terms of heat flow and cooling, but the best decision to maintain cooling without sacraficing the case design for a big fat case fan that can be seen from the outside.

Now where do you get a better PSU?
You probably know, but you can build your own from a PC-PSU. It will be good to choose a PSU, that has the fan at the PSU's rear side, not at the large area at the side of the PSU. The latter being the case with most mordern PSUs.
One would be this https://skinflint.co.uk/arctic-fusion-550r-550w-atx-2-2-a320800.html or this https://skinflint.co.uk/arctic-fusion-550rf-550w-atx-2-2-ps-550-05a01-ps-550-07a01-a696231.html from Ebay (well, having been used for years will probably have aged it and thus made it less effective though... so you might want to buy a new and other model)
(An additional way to use a better fan can be to put an additonal 12cm fan in front of the PSU - where the Arctic Fusion 550RF has the fan - or even use it alone instead of the 8cm PSU fan. When you use the new PSU.)

Here is how to do the conversion (look at the top, where you can choose the right G4 model) http://atxg4.com/sawtooth.html