Author Topic: MDD Water cooling  (Read 59768 times)

supernova777

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MDD Water cooling
« on: December 04, 2014, 05:32:19 AM »


who was the member who discussed this recently?

i think this would be of tremendous benefit to all of us MDD lovers
if we could get some more into + visual direction on how to go about
implementing water cooling.

http://aqua-mac.com/newsataqua-macaq.html

this page is the best thing to start with.. but.. i dont understand really what im looking at or how it works to attach this thing.. ???

http://www.s155158671.websitehome.co.uk/moremddcoolingmo.html

too bad theres no way to water cool the power supply..
as the power supply fans are the biggest problem
i need to find a better quality fan the ones i have are still too loud for my liking
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:07:07 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 01:07:36 AM »
My final fans are on the way (a few 50x50 and 60x60 mm fans, one of which is to get rid of that nasty dvd/cd-rom fan), but I plan to share images when done. If I could source enough of the random nuts/bolts/hardware I could piece together a means/kit of mounting a corsair h80 water cooling system quite easily to a MDD FW400/FW800 that would easily fit in the lower back section of the case (mine is already in there and working great). Corsair H80i might even work better (would look prettier at least)

In any case, I have had mine running under OS 9 with a Dual 1.42 running, without benefit of OS X reducing temps, for hours and hours straight. Very very quiet and very cool (not warm).

It's an investment, but get rid of the factory power supply unless you absolutely want ADP support (well, power for ADP video card anyway). Even in working condition, those factory power supplies must have hideous efficiency ratings with the heat they throw off. A nice modern 300/400/450 Micro ATX will fit beautifully in the MDD and clear a lot of space and reduce internal case temps quite a bit. If you get one like below, I can tell you the powersupply is likely to be the quietest component in the system (far quieter then either of the MDD G4 power supplies by far).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CP07PQ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Above is what I went with, plus (since it was a big time saver if not $$$ saver) a ATX adapter from a guy on etsy.com (http://atxg4.com/).  Not sure I should share this as before I experimented with water cooling I ended up with two of the nice big copper fin and heat pipe apple heatsinks I may be interested in selling shortly due to how well the Corsair H80 is working.  ;D

This is first night in a while (again, as I seem to get only a night every so often to work on it and read/post about it/classic-macs on the web) I have gotten back to it like I keep wanting/trying to do.

One thing to note, don't hook up Corsair water coolers to standard 4 pin molex or sata power connectors and put your mac to sleep without significant testing.. Pump will stop running.. I got mine pretty much worked out, but I would avoid trying it unless you are adamant about getting sleep to work. This could be dealt with by a bit of a circuit to keep the water cooling pump and at least one 120 mm fan spinning a bit.

Anyway, figure I might have been one mentioning the water cooling in progress..... Will see how soon I want o share pics of it (last parts should be here right before or right after holiday). Will visit local hardware store first chance I get to see if I can get generic specs and/or part numbers for the few pieces of od hardware I used make it work.

Oh, last comment.. Biggie compared to other methods/solutions I have seen. No cutting of meta or plastic. I took out the little support brackets right below the power supply (just took the rivits out, but turns out I didn't need to.. ). So yeah, not metal or plastic cutting. Case looks unmodified inside and out.

Offline MacTron

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 05:41:49 AM »
The water cooling MDD is a very interesting topic. I'm specially interested in it, to enhance the cooling of some overclocked MDDs ...
So please, keep us informed of your progress in this subject ..
Please don't PM about things that are not private.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2014, 06:57:14 PM »
Will be post holiday before I get remaining fans and what not in for small remaining work, be gentle on it's appearance (loose cables are normally not loose or seen as some are not even plugged in right now).

(typing, and realize I forgot or don't know how to reference attached images so sorry please see file attached).

2-block.jpg and 1-overallf.jpg





Early fit info basically for you.. This is with a corsair H80. Top part of waterblock/pump/controls removed and internal 3 ping connectors (for power and controller) extended to put controller elsewhere. If you don't remove it, the block/pump/controller will be crushed by the radiator and the door won't close. The Corsair H80i's lower profile block should fit without modification, but you loose the simple 3 speed push botton control (only controlled by corsair usb link or whatever they call it). Disregard the zip ties around the for posts/mounting-pins/bolts. Could easily get a thin acrylic sheet with holes on top to deal with holding them straighter if needed, but really needed the water block fits very tight between the 1.25/1.33/1.42 dual processor 4 hole pattern around the dual cores. Note, this will not work for anything without that whole pattern on the cpu module (which means, pretty much dual processor modules only from what I have seen).

Control module is on top of 120 mm standard Corsair H80 radiator and 2 included 120 mm fans. 3 built in speed settings. Lowest easily keeps the dual 1.42 under the waterblock cold under max load. Control module could really be anywhere I guess. Works there in case I want to access it quick by opening the door.

"3-front facing.jpg" and "4-between 120 and 120.jpg"






Quick look of radiator spacing and replacement Cooler Master 120 mm fan (optional, provides a bit steadier fan speed from the coolermaster fans on the radiator as it helps provide (in combo with a pair of 80x80x10 mm fans way up front in front of drive cage) a nice quiet steady flow of air. Had wired them into the onboard fan header (may return there if the motherboard speeds up the replacement 60mm fan I have on the way for the dvd/cd drive too much with no load on the normal 120 mm cpu fan header). But at max rpm of 2000 RPM the cooler master 120 mm fan is nice and quiet. Video card is easily louder yet.

"2-upper psu area.jpg" and "5-2.5hdmount.jpg"





3m 2 side taped a very simple 2.5 dual drive mount to the top of the cd/dvd sub-chassis. Comes out with the cd/dvd chassis without interference. I wanted a couple more drive bays back from loss due to radiator position. Earlier images, you will see similar adaptation to the original 3.5 mount brack under the cd/dvd sub-chassis. Went with nice 2.5 inch 7200 RPM sata drives and 2.5 inch sata ssds. Small size of modern mechanicals might as well be taken advantage of as well right? Well.. I don't need any super 1tb/2tb/3tb/4tb/6tb range 3.5 inch drives right now anyway. But they would fit in lower bays if needed.

Other notable points in images, the FSP 450 watt micro atx power supply and simple little mod of a power cord (cut off, shortended and soldered to a simple socket). Power supply is 3m double side taped in. It will come off any day I want it off hard enough, but it isn't coming loose and fits perfectly in the depth of the original power supply (actually, it is a little thinner). Fan in it is controlled by PSU. 4 drives, Geforce 4 TI4600 or Geforce 7800 C (one or other, but either), water cooling, 2x burners, all fans.... the Fan barely turns on. Well over need of hardware in the mac, but it allows the power supply to run at lower output levels (less heat, less to cool). Silverstone makes a version of almost identical powersupply (same oem from what I have read), but atx 24 pin cable is quite a bit shorter and will make it tricky to reach the motherboard with or without your own custom adapter.

Little support bracket is taken out under power supply, but was not needed to fit anything in the case (does clear a spot for the h20 cooler controls though  :)).


So..

Parts list minus hardware to mount water block/pump.

Corsair H80 water cooler all in one kit. (you find via google, not H80i will also likely be fine)

ATX adapter from: http://atxg4.com/mdd.html   Note, I added one more pin so onboard firewire would be powered (vs unpowered and requiring external power for firewire devices.. wire is one left out by most people as it is for 25v normally used for Apple ADC).

450 watt FSP Micro ATX power supply (really, any micro atx should fit wonderfully.. take your pic but remember it is a long way to reach the motherboard).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CP07PQ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

IEC 60320 C14 Socket (for power supply)
There are several sources/brands for this type of part. This one comes with screws etc that could be used to affix this after simply sliding it in from the back of the MDD G4 case. I did that and essentially epoxied (high temp hot glue) on the inside to hold it in when you pull the external power cable out of the socket. Design of socket makes it so you can't push it into the case. Make sure you are comfortable with soldering/electronics if you do this approach as I do not support/suggest-this/etc (don't take my word on this.. went to school for electrnonics amongst other things but I am not saying this as certified electrician or anything of that sort. That is my public statement for today on this.).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00917Z96S/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

If you don't want to extend the internal connections in the water-block/pump/control setup.. You can get a 2 pin and a 3 pin fan extension cable from various sources.



I know, I left out mounting method. Will see if I can pick up a second set of misc bolts, take pics and show I I crafted a mounting method/clamp for this as soon as I can get to hardware store and commit to building the second setup like this for the FW800 (currently this is all in my FW400 board/case combo).


« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 07:40:31 PM by MacTron »

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2014, 07:28:39 PM »
Oh, and before someone asks.. Nothing special done with original heatsink to hold the cpu module in there. Left the plastic bracket in, and snapped in the module socket. it has never come close to pulling out even as I open and close the side panel with the water-block/pump/hoses attached. If I pull on it from the edge close to the back plate (usb connectors/etc) I can disconnect the cpu easily enough. Otherwise, it isn't coming off on it's own.

Offline Custos

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2014, 02:12:45 PM »
Just put the MDD inside a mini fridge.. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgT_zcsrCj0
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Offline Metrophage

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 02:49:30 PM »
Just put the MDD inside a mini fridge.. lol

This may or not be joke, but there are some things which can go drastically wrong with chilling a computer directly in a fridge or freezer. Differences in temperature can cause condensation on the board and components, which would be not-so-good. Also, as it starts to freeze, not only mechanical things such as rotational media freeze, chemical reactions such as capacitors lose their effectiveness.

For total system immersion cooling, I would sooner consider one of those mineral oil baths. The trick then is breaking out your connectors so that they aren't in the oil.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2014, 02:57:03 PM »
Lol.. Fridge.. Yeah, I have worked with peltier (TEC) and refrigerant cooling of CPUs in years long past..  Temperature extremes have to be dealt with very carefully when by electronics.

The water cooling, discounting my mounting and little bit of modification to the stock H80 kit, ran me all of $50 (got the refurbed Corsair H80 cheap). The rest.. Well. Going for PowerMac G4 upgraded with modern hardware options.. SATA as much as possible (even cd/dvd) and more so the power supply and cooling. I have a nice little corsair h60 (much smaller radiator) bound for either the GF4 TI4600 or the 7800 OC to keep that quiet.. Think I have enough space inside that little MDD case yet to do it too.  ;D So I don't see it as extreme at all.  ;)

Offline Custos

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2014, 04:07:59 PM »
It was a joke, :P But it can be done. Not really worth the effort though.

I like the mineral oil Idea. Seems easy an cheap. Plus it looks cool too. drawback is its too much of a mess if anything needs serviced.
"A mistake is only an error. It only becomes a mistake when you fail to correct it."  -John Lennon

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2014, 08:13:05 PM »
How much more quiet is the MDD after applying all of that?

I'm in the predicament that I simply can't extend all of the cables and move the powermac out of the room since I have a Pro Tools rig that comes with a proprietary 12-15ft cable and it can NOT be extended.

I'm looking into getting a 2002 QS 933 machine and I'd love to silence it. I didn't realize you could put in just any ol' power supply like that.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2014, 08:24:41 PM »
Oh crap... I just read that using the power supply adapter disables the ADC thing. I use an Nvidia card with a DVI and an ADC port. I actually don't use Apple displays, I have an ADC-DVI adapter so I can connect 2x regular DVI monitors. I'm not sure if that means that the ADC port won't work at all or what, but it looks like I'll need a new Nvidia card with 2x DVI outs. I forget which cards for Powermacs have that.

My current MDD is way too loud. There's this weird whirring noise and I have no idea where it comes from, but it's not the power supply or the big fan pointing on the DVD drives since I replaced all of those already. My video card has no fans either, so the noise is probably either something internal on the power supply or it's the CPU heatsink fan.

I imagine if I can get the power supply replaced and get those CPU fans removed and replace with something, the QS or MDD would be just about dead silent.

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2014, 08:36:08 PM »
Also, is that power supply you posted very thick? I'm afraid the case won't close since the Pro Tools cards would hit the power supply when closing it up. It's already a really tight fit so if that power supply is any thicker than the one in there I may have an issue.

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2014, 08:55:21 PM »
3 posts 3 answers:

1. Quieter, much much quieter. All the threads and sites I have seen, it is a toss up as to what to target first.. But to me, that power supply has got to go. Replace the fans, but that thing puts off so much heat with stock fans I don't think I would really recommend decreasing airflow in it. If you decrease airflow that much, I would guess it is only going to help hasten the death of a MDD power supply that was likely already destined for a short life.  Which leads to a replacing it vs modifying stock.. I went 450 watt, but there are cheaper 400 and 350 (maybe even 300) that would be far more efficient/cooler and still be plenty for what you could probably be running inside a MDD G4..  . Next, the 60 mm side fan is noisy as can be (way to high rpm for a 60 mm to ever be quiet), if you have modern burners I can not see one or even two optical drivers deserving that kind of airflow. The 120 MM fan for the cpu is sill pretty loud with the copper heat pipe heatsink. Dual, or in my case 3x, 120 mm thinner (standard thickness for 120) fans with that big radiator does a lot.

2. Haven't read far enough into it as I didn't have an ADC card or displays I wanted to use (video card  I intentionally went out looking for non-adc).. Biggie with that ADC supply line, it provides 25v DC.. Maybe someone here can confirm, but I would guess that 25v is not used by any ADC card directly but instead just passes it through to the pins on the ADC display cable to power the ADC display you would normally be attaching. Given I have seen ADC to DVI adapters and a goofy ADC to DVI+ADC Power injector cable to provide power to ADC displays without an ADC card....... well... I am guessing you could plug the ADC card in an it might work fine as long as you are not expecting an ADC monitor to work.

2/3. The power supply, really any micro atx as the thickness (from back/far side panel towards forward/close) is a standard defined in micro atx. And it is thinner, just slightly, than an a standard MDD power supply so you should not have any issues is everything fits with a stock MDD power supply.


Can tell you, if you want to go all out, get another 120 MM x 120 MM x 40 mm (or so thickness) radiator to add to the cooling loop and you could really slow the fan down I think (it already is really slow, if I had an H80i vs H80 I would plug in the the usb interface to a PC to monitor the fan speed).

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2014, 09:10:49 PM »
I just put my ear to the MDD and it seems that about 80% of the noise is coming from the power supply, and that's even after I replaced the fans in it.

I got confused for a second about which fan does what, but my MDD is open at the moment and I'm seeing two fans: a giant one that's placed right behind the DVD drive (looks like it cools the heatsink?) and another, small and thin fan that's on the side door that opens. I think that's probably for the DVD drive.

I replaced that big fan sitting behind the DVD drive with something similar to this:



^^ that one is probably as quiet as it's gonna get, so next up is to get that power supply replaced.

I need to re-read this thread to see about that one that's built into the door...

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2014, 09:28:33 PM »
one on the side you wont be able to hear much until the 60mm in the psu is gone.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 03:49:30 AM »
syntho u would be better off trying different fans inside the powersupply
those ones are the ones that are the culprit

the problem is if u use any fans close to the CFM amount that was there originally
it will always be too loud.. so u have to take it down to around 20 cfm

http://g4chronicles.blogspot.ca/2006/08/5-replacing-psu-fans.html
Quote
According to Bits and Pieces, the stock fans within the PSU of the June 2003 MDD are Minebea 2410ML-04W-B60 60 x 60 x 25mm fans, running at 5300rpm, with 25CFM @ 38dB. Compare this with the original PSU fans in the first revision of the MDD: Delta AFB0612EH at 6800 rpm with 38 CFM @ 47 dBA

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835191005
16 dba is great but 18 cfm is a bit too low and would make diehard have a heartattackk..
so what is reccommended (by me?) is keeping the cfm at least up to 25 CFM
and finding a fan that is in the range of 25-30dba
thats the real challege. regarding finding the right replacement 60mm fans.



just found a post by a guy saying he was happy with the combo of thruput + noise  with these:
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6650/fan-398/Aluminum_60mm_Fan.html?tl=g36c15s57

the best thing to do to deal with this issue is for everyone whos concerned to post links of different fan types with prices + availability so we might 'find the perfect fan' it needs to be at least 25 CFM, and 30DBA or lower.. high thruput of air.. with low noise (duh!)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 04:04:47 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 03:57:56 AM »
I already switched out the fans and there wasn't much of a difference. There's something else with that power supply that just isn't right.

supernova777

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2014, 04:05:00 AM »
I already switched out the fans and there wasn't much of a difference. There's something else with that power supply that just isn't right.

yes the fans u chose to use suck.
err they blow.. (no pun intended - LOL!)

its not just the fan, its the 'wind tunnel' design of the power supply it makes the fans even louder then they are when u power them up uninstalled. whatever fan u put in there will be louder then it actually is when put into that position which is why u need to find the right combijnation of noise/airflow..

a really intelligent person would find a way to regulate the voltage to the fans to
be able to have speed control wired to an external dial control. this would give u complete control over the volume instead of having to find a specific fan that just happens to operate at the desired noise level..



http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12489/bus-249/Sunbeam_20W_Rheosmart_PCI_Slot_Smart_Fan_Controller_-_PL-RS-PCI.html?tl=g34c17s1375

i wonder if its possible to somehow attach this fan controller bracket to another card that has no peripheral connection (such as a UAD-1 or internal sata pci)
as to not require wasting a pci slot in your config 

Offline Syntho

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2014, 04:32:22 AM »
No, they don't. The fans I replaced them with are much better. There's some kind of weird whirring noise or something going on with the power supply so that's why I want to replace it. I'd rather take that route than to replace them again.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 06:40:37 AM by Syntho »

Offline blemk

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Re: MDD Water cooling
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2014, 06:23:29 AM »
What was said above about the power supply itself is partially true. Size/dimension of powersuppy, plus biggie is size of the fans. Expecting any real airflox out of a something smaller then 80 mm fan you should also expect audible noise. In particular, of a certain frequency that is likely to be heard over a lot of other sounds/noise.

More fan you can get to bigger blade sizes moving slower, ie 80mm or better 120 mm, better the machine will sound. Besides the power supply being cooler in general (fan not moving even), it is the reason I wanted a ATX (usually 80 mm fan at smallest, 120 mm fan common these days) or micro atx. To completely eliminate the design/shape of the power supply that necessitated the choice of original 60 mm fan or "quieter" (but still 60 mm) fan that still had a distinct sound to it.