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Author Topic: Developing software tools needed to develop Apps and Plugs-Ins  (Read 70477 times)

Protools5LEGuy

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UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17

THIS IS THE OLDEST POST HERE ASKING FOR DEVELOPING TOOLS FOR APPS AND PLUGINS.

It started been focusing on Audio but later evolved to a General State.

ORIGINAL POST

Do we have here the tools to DEVELOP plug-ins?

To program in MAX there should be some packages...Documentation, etc
To program vst plug there should be some steinberg SDK
I have no clue about Protools RTAS or TDM plugs SDK, probably they sold the SDK in a secrecy contract (?)

It may involved programming in C+, Java or XCode or anything.
In the OS9/X transition lots of apps said that were carbonized. I think it meaned that it could work in OS9 and X, or maybe it meaned that it could work with OS X...I am not sure what that means.

I know Classilla http://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/ is developed using Codewarrior http://macintoshgarden.org/search/node/codewarrior
http://macintoshgarden.org/author/metrowerks==> This could be backup on our servers, at least the importants ones

This thing seem interesting to take windows program to OS9 http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/microsoft-visual-c-40-cross-development-edition-macintosh

Interesting...http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-developer-cd-collection

Let's post here tools needed to make any kind of AUDIO software in OS9. I readed here somewhere that the only commom way to program things was with MAX MSP.
MAX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_%28software%29


The goal is to have the documentation and tools to develop our owns plug-ins/host/guess. RTAS, VST, MAS, etc.

At least Steinberg OS9 sdk should be easy...

http://www.steinberg.net/en/company/developers.html

« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 11:24:41 AM by Protools5LEGuy »
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supernova777

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2014, 05:56:33 PM »

im interested in this too  8)
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dr bu

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 06:45:31 PM »

if you know your max/msp, making a vst/rtas-plug is pretty simple. the pluggo package comes with this tutorial. as with the original pluggo-plugins the very same object is valid both in protools and cubase etc... ;D
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 07:29:43 PM »

if you know your max/msp, making a vst/rtas-plug is pretty simple. the pluggo package comes with this tutorial. as with the original pluggo-plugins the very same object is valid both in protools and cubase etc... ;D
Quote
This manual describes how to use the audio plug-in construction tools in Max/MSP. These
tools consist of nine Max/MSP objects, an application called Plugmaker, and a shell, which we
call pluggo that loads plug-ins built in Max/MSP and creates an interface for them that appears to
a host audio program as an audio plug-in. In this manual, we refer to the pluggoshell as the
runtime plug-in environment and the audio program that can make use of pluggoas the host mixer
or host sequencer.
pluggocan be downloaded from the Cycling ’74 web site www.cycling74.com. Demo versions of
popular sequencing applications such as Cubase, Logic Audio, Pro Tools, and Digital Performer
can be obtained—with varying degrees of difficulty—from their publishers and distributors.
Max/MSP can also be used as a host environment for plug-ins developed in Max/MSP using the
vst~object.
The runtime plug-in environment currently runs under RTAS, MAS, and VST host
environments and provides platform-independence so Max/MSP developers may write a single
plug-in that works under all supported environments.

Ok, that is an aproach, via Max/MSP's Pluggo. http://www.dontcrack.com/freeware/downloads.php/id/3139/software/Pluggo-runtime/


What software is needed? I cant find it here http://cycling74.com/downloads/discontinued/ or here http://cycling74.com/downloads/older-discontinued/

It is on the Garden http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/pluggo-304 as Chris told us on http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=368.0


We need the Steinberg SDK also. It could be great to make an VST to RTAS/MAS OS9 adapter as the one from fxpansion for OSX.

There is another kind of plug not spoken here. Premiere plug-ins. Some DAWS can use them (?).

I tested Pluggo for WinProtools and it came with so many plugs that my plugs list went crazy long. I will see if it makes crazy long my RTAS options on OS9.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 07:42:16 PM by Protools5LEGuy »
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2014, 07:53:14 PM »


i am working on a new host as you can see in the respective forum thread

give me a few days with the thing i promised mactron (i have some other hobbies, too) then we will see what we need next. :)

-110

@110 Can you tell us the process you made to achieve that?
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dr bu

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2014, 07:55:48 PM »

What software is needed?

well, you will need max/msp 4.0.5 to 4.1. (after that only osx). and a small program that comes with Pluggo called Plugmaker 2.0. there is a copy of max/msp 4.1 at the server. once finished programming in max/msp you drop the file on the Plugmaker icon and bingo. thats it.
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djupsinnig

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2014, 08:25:53 PM »

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1191.0
110 making a Custom VST host app at the Mactron request called hozzt03 in MAX.

@ 110 or Dr Bu.  Has a OS9 MAX programming environment strong enought to move hardware modeled emulations?

Is there out info about modeling hardware based on electronics schematics? Or the math models used to emulate things?

For example. I would like to have an app like the piano keyboard you get from logic to use the Apple keyboard sending midi. Is this reachable within MAX? Or that should be a Codewarrior project involving OMS?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 08:38:11 PM by Protools5LEGuy »
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IIO

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 01:13:04 AM »

about SDKs´n stuff: the steinberg SDKs are always only in newest version available from steinberg. for mac os 9 we should get a copy of the 2.0 and 2.1 SDK. older ones are uninteresting.

most VST developers were using codewarrior 5 and not codewarrior 7, for the SDK was built for the older system.

an MAS SDK could be available on request by the owner.

RTAS is a closed format.

Quote
@ 110 or Dr Bu.  Has a OS9 MAX programming environment strong enought to move hardware modeled emulations?

Is there out info about modeling hardware based on electronics schematics? Or the math models used to emulate things?

not sure what you mean. noone really models electronics. :) well, sure, most things you cando in java or C can also be reached using max. but certain technologies - like building GUIs or FFT - require 5 times more work or use 5 times more CPU than using a lower level language.

proper deconvolution or wavelet stuff is more or less impossible in max/msp for OS9, everything else works fine.

Quote
For example. I would like to have an app like the piano keyboard you get from logic to use the Apple keyboard sending midi. Is this reachable within MAX?

Code: [Select]
[key]
|
[select 55]
|
[i 60]
|
[append 108]
|
[makenote 0 108 250]
|
[midiformat]
|
[midiout port 1]

any questions left?
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supernova777

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2014, 11:06:36 AM »

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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2014, 02:47:26 PM »

any questions left?
Too many... Can you describe US how did you implemented VST on MAX to make hotzz...(FIRST APP DEVELOPED IN MACOS9LIVES!)   :D ;D :D ;D :)


about SDKs´n stuff: the steinberg SDKs are always only in newest version available from steinberg. for mac os 9 we should get a copy of the 2.0 and 2.1 SDK. older ones are uninteresting.

most VST developers were using codewarrior 5 and not codewarrior 7, for the SDK was built for the older system.

an MAS SDK could be available on request by the owner.

RTAS is a closed format.

I would like to know how difficult could be to make an VST to MAX adapter, for using VST (FX OR INSTRUMENT) on PROTOOLS. It seems MAX "things" are seen on Protools thru Pluggo's Plugmaker 2.0. We can reach RTAS specs thru that.

Is possible to develop an MAS to RTAS adapter thru MAX?

most VST developers were using codewarrior 5 and not codewarrior 7, for the SDK was built for the older
not sure what you mean. noone really models electronics. :) well, sure, most things you cando in java or C can also be reached using max. but certain technologies - like building GUIs or FFT - require 5 times more work or use 5 times more CPU than using a lower level language.




How difficult should be to emulate http://www.waves.com/plugins/puigchild-660-670  using https://www.google.com/search?q=fairchild+670+schematic&espv=2&biw=1220&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WWW8U7rRJIasOOmWgOgJ&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QsAQ with https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mathematical+modeling+electrical+system?


Code: [Select]
[key]
|
[select 55]
|
[i 60]
|
[append 108]
|
[makenote 0 108 250]
|
[midiformat]
|
[midiout port 1]


Thanks! Is the same implementation as Logic Keyboard?
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dr bu

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 03:51:32 PM »

Quote
For example. I would like to have an app like the piano keyboard you get from logic to use the Apple keyboard sending midi. Is this reachable within MAX?

im not familiar with Logic...do you mean something like this?

...ok i see. well tell me how it works. configuring keys for dynamics/velocity and octaves is easy.
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djupsinnig

Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 05:10:40 PM »

Well tell me how it works. configuring keys for dynamics/velocity and octaves is easy.
The numbers keys are for choosing octave change from lower to higher...
A,S and D keys are for C,D and E notes...W is C sharp and E for D sharp...
Pressing A D and G keys brings a C chord (C, E, G notes)
 
Z is for selecting pianissimo, X piano, ... M for fortissimo. Not sure about + and -

I think Caps Lock or Tab key called for it, enabling you to send midi with the apple keyboard.

Curiously  G key is G note..


Playing piano with this:


 is harder than playing a piano keyboard...


but this thing seems easier than a piano...
.

It could be handy to play bass lines or pads... The new keyboard needs minimal pressure to work.

I was thinking to use my black and white keys to make a piano roll on the keyboard combining keys as Zen from http://powerpcliberation.blogspot.com.es/has made on his logo ...


Imagine making this with black keys for sharp notes..
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supernova777

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 05:33:23 PM »

i have 2 smaller midi keyboards that fit nicely next to a real keyboard
the pcr-30 by edirol
and the mk-225c by evolution (similar to mk-425c)

highly reccommended!
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Protools5LEGuy

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 05:36:24 PM »

Do you mean something like this?


Thanks!!! 2nd utility born in the MacOS9Lives! era!    :D :D :D :D :D


Can you tell us the process you made to achieve that?

Is that born in MAX with pluggo's Plugmaker or a CodeWarrior app? I can't test nor open sit files at this time...

Please, don't answer only here. I made a separate post for your StandalonePiano http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1328.0
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 05:53:53 PM by Protools5LEGuy »
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dr bu

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2014, 12:06:42 AM »

Quote

Can you tell us the process you made to achieve that?

Is that born in MAX with pluggo's Plugmaker or a CodeWarrior app? I can't test nor open sit files at this time...

Please, don't answer only here. I made a separate post for your StandalonePiano

any maxpatch can be turned into an app first saving it as a "collective", then using "applicationinstaller" that lives in the max/msp folder - which i am sure you have installed by now ;)
see the attached pdf tuturial chapter "collectives" :)

oops...now i dont know how to move this post to your new thread
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 12:25:04 AM by dr bu »
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djupsinnig

dr bu

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2014, 02:59:01 AM »

vst in protools.
 
pluggo has 2 dedicated hosts simply called "Pluggo" (for effects) and "Pluggo synth" (for vsti) made for loading vst-objects into the pluggo-environment. in PT these two dont work, because (as i picked up somewhere) PT dont allow plugins to open popup windows. :'(
 
so, my personal way of dealing with this is to create a different pluggo-object for every vst-object. this is kind of boring work and should be done with scripts but ive been too lazy to learn that. (maybe 110 knows how)

anyway, attached is an example: the "spectral_monkeyage_pi".
for this to work you need to have both max/msp and pluggo installed.
open max and under options->file preferences make sure the folder where you have vstplugins is chosen, because the _pi-object looks up the spectral_monkeyage-vst everytime it opens. i use the vstplugins-folder in the max/msp folder itself.
 
the spectral_monkeyage_pi lives with the other pluggo-plugins in the PT folder. in PT you should now be able to play around with vst! ugly isntit?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 03:53:43 AM by dr bu »
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supernova777

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 09:05:31 PM »

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug08/articles/max5.htm

heres a more recent article on max
i think max is now (shortly after this article been)
 100% aimed at ableton live!
having been renamed max for live
yes i was right, heres a link:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb10/articles/maxforlive.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may10/articles/livetech_0510.htm

its funny
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/monome.htm (controller similar to tenori-on)
looking at this article u can tell they still retain their taste for MAC OS 9 Fonts !!!!!
when they programmed this monome controller, i saw this screen and i was like.. mac os 9???
;)

in fact the whole world wide web had this look in 2001-2002-2003
i miss this:)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 10:03:55 PM by chrisNova777 »
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IIO

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2014, 03:03:57 PM »

Too many... Can you describe US how did you implemented VST on MAX to make hotzz...:D ;D :D ;D :)

max/msp comes with a set of compiled objects, you can also compile your own, or you can build max objects with max by just saving a window with code and recalling it as object by name.

one of the objects coming with MSP is the [vst~] object. it opens the plug-in and you can send it all kind of messages to make it use the plug-in.

i am usually writing my own obejcts which is why it will take a little longer. the other reason is that i simply dont had much time last week. the third reason is that i never work only for one project. i will program and organize this in a way so that all party of it are generalized as much as possible for later reuse of these parts. programming in max is  all about moving things to a symbolic level, then you work on this level, which is like a mirror of your brain and you will speak it like your mother tongue.
Quote
I would like to know how difficult could be to make an VST to MAX adapter, for using VST
using VST effects in a pluggo in pro tools is possible - in theory. in practice it is a very buggy situation, officially hosting VST plug-ins INSIDE pluggo plug-in is not supported and all kind of problems can appear, mainly when the file is loaded, but also when the audio settings are changed or the plug-in is getting disabled. you wont be able to save presets either.

MAS will be impossible inside max you can only host VST. (and later AU)

Quote
How difficult should be to emulate http://www.waves.com/plugins/puigchild-660-670 

such compressors and  filters are using impulse/response beside FIRs and that requires far to much CPU in MSP. for OSX there is a dedicated MSP object for deconvolution, but even that is not perfect.

btw, these waves plug-ins will possibly also not run on a sub 1GHz G4 as native waves plug-in. ;)

Quote
Thanks! Is the same implementation as Logic Keyboard?

rumor has it that the logic "enviroment" is widely based on Max/FTS ( the version of opcode somewhere mentioned here in the thread.) however, it has not been built in max.

if you want to do something with midi and max i will strongly recommend cubase/nuendo or digital performer, they have most solutions supported for pluggo. same with multichannel.

-110




« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 03:17:39 PM by 110 »
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IIO

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2014, 03:12:42 PM »

pluggo has 2 dedicated hosts simply called "Pluggo" (for effects) and "Pluggo synth" (for vsti) made for loading vst-objects into the pluggo-environment. in PT these two dont work, because (as i picked up somewhere) PT dont allow plugins to open popup windows. :'(

VST hosts also do not allow to open subwindows. for northpole or mda delay this is no problem, because oyu can learn their 7 parameters by heart, but i dont want to create imposcar patches blindly.

Quote
so, my personal way of dealing with this is to create a different pluggo-object for every vst-object. this is kind of boring work and should be done with scripts but ive been too lazy to learn that. (maybe 110 knows how)

for how many different plug-ins do you do that? and do you need control over the parameters of the hosted VST?

Quote
anyway, attached is an example: the "spectral_monkeyage_pi".

funny that you mention it. monkeyage and northpole were the two VSTs  whhere i´ve built a VST to VST bridge for ... in order to make them stereo. lol.

Quote
because the _pi-object looks up the spectral_monkeyage-vst everytime it opens. i use the vstplugins-folder in the max/msp folder itself.


i have never tried it but it should work to put those VST in the pluggo runtime folder, which is an unlimited, default runtime search path.

we will come back to this at a later point.
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dr bu

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Re: Developing software tools needed to PROGRAM plugs
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2014, 05:50:59 PM »

Quote
VST hosts also do not allow to open subwindows.

well, in Cubase my Pluggo-host does open an "open"-window for loading a vstplug or maxpatch, which i dont think is possible in PT. you can also chose if you want to have the original vst-interface or pluggos egg-slider view. i would like to know how thats implemented... and possibly i will find out soon...

Quote
for how many different plug-ins do you do that? and do you need control over the parameters of the hosted VST?
maybe 5 or 10 in my awkward way. and yes i do. i would very much like to have users comments on my "singular pluggo-vst shell" concept, included in reply #15. it should work i both cubase and PT.

Quote
i have never tried it but it should work to put those VST in the pluggo runtime folder, which is an unlimited, default runtime search path.

right. maybe thats better. thats in the systemfolder maxnewbies!
hmm..maybe nobody cares anyway  :(
... i actually put aliases in the runtime folder pointing to externals-folder etc. this way i know installed externals for max will be found by pluggo.
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