Author Topic: keyspan sx serial cards  (Read 32624 times)

supernova777

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keyspan sx serial cards
« on: June 13, 2014, 03:55:05 PM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KeySpan-SxPRO-A2-PCI-Card-4-Port-/141281771604?pt=US_Internal_Port_Expansion_Cards&hash=item20e50cc054


3 available for 29.99$ each

does anyone know if these are good for connections to midi interfaces???
do they require extensions like the megawolf romulus/remus?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 08:33:13 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline MacTron

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 04:21:05 PM »
Without drivers can work the Stealth Serial Port (DS8925M chip based) and -may be- the griffin G-port ...
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supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 04:25:55 PM »
hey mactron
both the stealth + g4port do still require + have small extensions ..
they work 100% tho.. unlike this megawolf card im having problems with

the question re: the keyspan card above tho. is this ok just for printers, tablets etc
or is this ok for midi?

Offline MacTron

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 04:43:23 PM »
hey mactron
both the stealth + g4port do still require + have small extensions ..

The "small extensions" are for the "Chooser" only, if you plan to use a old serial port printer...
For MIDI use aren't necessary. I have use it in this way "driver-less" for over ten years! LOL

Quote
they work 100% tho.. unlike this megawolf card im having problems with
the question re: the keyspan card above tho. is this ok just for printers, tablets etc
or is this ok for midi?
I don't know for sure... but if you'll going to spend money and a PCI slot on your computer just for serial ports (for MIDI use), -may be- better to find a PCI card with MIDI in/out... I know this may be "another" problem...

Any way, the  Stealth or G4port are the best solutions IMHO.
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supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 05:32:37 PM »
it would almost be cheaper, easier, + more available now,  to get a g3 that already has a serial port + get a cpu upgrade card to upgrade it;)

whats the highest cpu of a beige g3 upgrade card? 1ghz? or is it 500mhz?


supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 05:22:10 PM »
apparently these cards do not support oms
according to this post:
(see bottom)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bfycigkk4QgJ:199.193.246.201/showthread.php%3Ft%3D3495+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

Quote
Hey Daniel,
I have been using Gallery 009 with my Betacam deck and the Keyspan card (4 port)for three years without a hitch. This solution is tighter and far more versatile than machine control within Tools.
I found machine control to have a slight lag, although I havn`t tried it in 5.1 and up.
Now however I am using the Megawolf Romulus card for all my serial needs because the Keyspan card did not support OMS
Good Luck.

but reading more from info from the archived hinton instruments site it seems it may be possible to run freemidi, in OMS mode? for OMS compatibility?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 05:37:36 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2014, 12:19:10 AM »
Fabulous OMS card on my G41.25 dual MDD with Studio 5 and Studio 4. 10 years running without a single problem. It needs Keyspan extensions. OS9 only...Logic 4 (5&6 only sum the OMS inputs, will not sense discreet input ports) and DP under Free MIDI or OMS. Emulates modem and printer. Absolutely hands-down the best card, and I have Stealth for G4 & G5 as well as Keyspan USB ports to compare.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 05:27:33 AM »
thanks so much for that information COACHLA!!!
have u got the extensions that you can share before i order one for my G3 450mhz??

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2014, 05:58:29 AM »
Try this and post if successful. Will check back later tonight.
http://www.tripplite.com/support/downloads/type/9/tab/2

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 07:33:41 AM »
looks good
attached

i dont have a card myself so i cant test.. if u could test?? would be much appreciated..
im guessing it works tho!

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2014, 01:52:22 AM »
Be aware that only two ports will be available for MIDI in Logic. DP list all 4, but as I recall they are duplicates actually, unless you discover otherwise, by my findings. Great card, very little jitter.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2014, 02:01:04 AM »
Be aware that only two ports will be available for MIDI in Logic. DP list all 4, but as I recall they are duplicates actually, unless you discover otherwise, by my findings. Great card, very little jitter.

hey coachla..
i will volunteer to investigate this further. i will order a keyspan card and report back to u with my findings this will probably take about 5 weeks or so for me to get the card mailed to me and actually do the testing tho but i feel its a worthwhile thing to investigate as hinton instruments reported these Oxford chip powered serial pci devices as having the best midi timing accuracy

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2014, 04:06:31 AM »
Are you referring to my posts about Logic 5&6 OMS and Sum input only? That's a real mystery. But on the subject of the Keyspan: You have to use OMS or Freemidi with the Keyspan. There are OSX drivers, but not for MIDI. The first two ports can emulate the printer and modem , in that order. I know the 4 ports will show in FreeMIDI setup, however I distinctly recall finding that only two are functional. On  one of the MDDs I run a Studio 5 and Studio 4, and it is GREAT. I don't run audio in Logic, only the MIDI sequencer. Sounddiver runs alongside, as does Unisyn when necessary, using OMS. The MDD model is a very smooth ride. I should add that I have three networked via Gigabit ethernet  switch, all while OMS is active. Now if you're so inclined, you can have a server connected running Tiger, then transfers for backups to it are very quick as opposed to those from OS9 to OS9 which are only 1.5 MBsec. Most often I run just the main MDD though. Simple is better.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2014, 04:14:31 AM »
Now if you're so inclined, you can have a server connected running Tiger, then transfers for backups to it are very quick as opposed to those from OS9 to OS9 which are only 1.5 MBsec. Most often I run just the main MDD though. Simple is better.

i use a BSD based file server called nas4free that runs an AFP daemon i can connect to via chooser->appleshare
it gives me the fastest file transfers over gigabit ethernet that ive ever seen on mac os 9!
surely mac os x must also support the AFP protocol! is this what you use for your shares from tiger X?

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2014, 04:23:31 AM »
Yes...what's the machine running the BSD server?

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2014, 04:37:52 AM »
Yes...what's the machine running the BSD server?

its my old main pc from about 2006..
motherboard is an asus p5b deluxe wifi/ap
its got 4 x 1.0 Tb drives in it right now (with free sata ports for expansion) which is giving me like 3TB of fault redundant space. i have other posts about it here if u look!

for example i just transfered 2gb in less then 60 seconds from my mdd to this server..
it makes my life so much easier;)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 05:34:52 AM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2014, 09:52:42 PM »
I'll probably grab a Keyspan, I can't find a G4port or Stealth. I see the extensions were posted so I hope that's all I need to get it working.

I have an older MOTU Midi Express XT that would be nice to get up and running. As long as it's compatible with FreeMidi I'm good.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2014, 10:11:19 PM »
Are you referring to my posts about Logic 5&6 OMS and Sum input only? That's a real mystery. But on the subject of the Keyspan: You have to use OMS or Freemidi with the Keyspan. There are OSX drivers, but not for MIDI. The first two ports can emulate the printer and modem , in that order. I know the 4 ports will show in FreeMIDI setup, however I distinctly recall finding that only two are functional. On  one of the MDDs I run a Studio 5 and Studio 4, and it is GREAT. I don't run audio in Logic, only the MIDI sequencer. Sounddiver runs alongside, as does Unisyn when necessary, using OMS. The MDD model is a very smooth ride. I should add that I have three networked via Gigabit ethernet  switch, all while OMS is active. Now if you're so inclined, you can have a server connected running Tiger, then transfers for backups to it are very quick as opposed to those from OS9 to OS9 which are only 1.5 MBsec. Most often I run just the main MDD though. Simple is better.

using the term "ports" is vague. im assuming u mean the actual "serial ports" on the card.. and not "midi ports" provided by a connected interface.

2 serial ports is all that will ever be able to work with oms as oms was written for real macs that only had 2 serial ports so its only written to handle 2 serial ports..  other names for these 'ports' include: rs-422, rs-232, geoport
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 10:28:13 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2014, 10:58:45 PM »
Just bought one of those cards. Got some 25ft serial cables to go along with it as well.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 11:22:46 PM by Syntho »

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2014, 11:23:37 PM »
Hey Coachla, have you had any trouble with FreeMidi being integrated with OMS? It seems to crash, and crash, and crash my system but works fine when they're not interlinked.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2014, 12:03:50 AM »
Hey Coachla, have you had any trouble with FreeMidi being integrated with OMS? It seems to crash, and crash, and crash my system but works fine when they're not interlinked.

yeah i was going to say on the other thread, re unisyn, freemidi + oms together? yikes... i didnt know u could use both at the same time i thought it was one or the other installed at any given time..


Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2014, 12:16:10 AM »
You can use both at the same time, independently, and that works much better than having them actually 'linked' and speaking together. That's why I bought this Keyspan card, plus I've got some other serial gear to connect so it only made sense to get one.

When I selected for FreeMidi to use itself instead of sending the data to OMS, Unisyn stopped crashing, at least for now. I hope that keeps up.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2014, 06:07:02 AM »
OMS and Freemidi can address different ports, modem or printer, so you can use Diver and Unisyn simultaneously. You can also choose to have Freemidi use OMS exclusively. Another option is to use the Freemidi OMS emulator extension, one caveat being it only addresses the first port of Unity DS-1, regardless of which one you choose to use.

Okay... let's put it this way: Can anyone verify on any computer midi data coming into anything but the sum input in Logic 5 or 6's physical input object in the environment? It's a long standing bug. Only the topmost sum input brings in data. The individual inputs below the sum input on the physical input object do not work. In Logic, these are called midi ports or cables. The sum input is the sum of all the input cables below. On an MTP there are 8. A Studio 5 has 15. The physical input represents those cables on the interface. But in reality only the sum input works.

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2014, 06:48:24 AM »
Can Sounddiver use FreeMidi? I know Logic can because you said so. How are you personally using FreeMidi/OMS? I kept crashing and crashing and crashing so I chose "Use FreeMidi" instead of FreeMidi using OMS. I don't know if the OMS emulator extension you mentioned is in use that way or so.



I don't have the printer or modem ports running just yet. Actually, I don't know why Logic is showing these P/M ports at all considering my machine doesn't have any (yet... guess it's left over from serial macs?). As far as I know all midi data coming into Logic goes through the Sum until you replug a cable, which cuts it off from the Sum and goes wherever you connect the cable to.

There's an area in Logic where "Midi Communications" or whatever it's titled is - go there and go to OMS Input Mapping. I had to select my master midi controller as one of the objects in this area so I could actually get data into Logic from it. It only gives you about 8 inputs (8 flip menus for 8 objects) IIRC, but there's a setting above that that you can tick called something like "Connect all real inputs..." and that'll turn on all inputs instead of setting them manually. Your entire midi rig's outputs will be blasting into Logic with that setting on.

If you disable OMS, I'm pretty positive the individual output cables will work, but to do this with OMS on, try the input mapping page. There's also Output mapping connections for you to set up in the same area as well and that's good for when you don't want to use OMS.

Offline IIO

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2014, 07:05:57 AM »

sounddiver can not use freemidi itself, but fgreemidi can be used alongside OMS and there is a freemidi OMS driver for that reason.

i remember vaguely that i installed and tested freemidi "in" OMS for the beta test of "modularing" software and it worked.

however i believe that you are better advised not to mix up your tinker corner with your serious studio work corner. :) OMS and sounddiver and mac os 9 are unstable enough, and if you really want to control 20 hardware devices to produce music i wouldnt do that with 7.5., freemidi,  and serial PCI cards of unknown origin but get an usb interface from motu or steinberg for 80 euro for that.

btw sounddiver - yesterday i was thinking about we should collect all ewxisting additional, third party sounddvier extensions here. before they disappear forever.
"It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create?"
- DieHard, random forum troll at macos9lives.com

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 05:28:23 AM »
The OMS emulator extension is quite old but it allows you to use Freemidi impersonating OMS. OMS need not be installed... in this case Freemidi is the only one running. I know with this scenario Logic 4 versions work, though I would not go that route. The other way is to use OMS (i.e. for Sounddiver), and choose use OMS in Freemidi prefs. This way Freemidi (i.e. for DP) is slaved to OMS. Personally I never found Freemidi to be friendly or stable, especially on SCSI Macs. I have run OMS with Logic and Sounddiver and Unisyn simultaneously without any problems. Note, however, I don't record audio or use VSTs on my sequencing MDD with Logic. If I were to run DP or Unisyn that require Freemidi, I would choose use OMS if available in Freemidi prefs.

Keyspan PCI is solid.... very little jitter on a rig with hardware racks. USB is a power drain and doesn't handshake without delay. But if you've got it to work for you, by all means stay with it. There are so many variables....

Two Studio 5's networked would use M1-M30 on a real modem port without OMS. But only the sum input works even without OMS. My point is that the individual inputs do not work in Logic 5&6. Individual outputs always work, no problem.

There are many things in Logic that will make no sense until you use it enough and discover that in Logic there is ALWAYS a workaround. My favorite is the alert box: "Circular Structure! Please report to Emagic how you did this!" ( You will see that you are now recording in the trash folder or some such nonsense.)

So everyone who sees that alert should call Apple and report it. That'll teach them for buying out Emagic.....

Syntho, I'm aware of how things are supposed to work, as you describe. I'm only talking about input cables not working, i.e. M1-M32 and P1-P32.

How about a screenshot of the monitor showing data and connected to M1-M8 physical inputs using OMS? Just kidding.... it was one of those steps down in the evolution of Logic from version 4. But it really is only significant if you are inputting multiple hardware device data...things could get messy at only the sum input.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 06:34:43 AM by coachla »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2014, 07:05:58 AM »
When my keyspan card gets here I'll check it out and let you know if it does the same.

Why wouldn't you go the route of using the old OMS emulator extension? Had trouble with it?

For some reason my system was brought to a halt and everything kept crashing (Unisyn in particular). My midi interface (Unitor 8) would lock up and need to be reset. I believe my setup was the 2nd method you mentioned, the one where FreeMidi sends data to OMS via selecting "Use OMS" in FreeMidi. If I can work out the bug that's making me crash, that would probably be my permanent setup. It will be great to use both Unisyn and Sounddiver simultaneously...

EDIT: Also, is it commonplace to link two serial devices? My Midi Express XT has two serial ports so maybe I can use another serial cable to network the two instead of using two of the Keyspan's ports. If it goes to M32 and P32, then that means I can probably network 4 of them together.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2014, 04:33:00 AM »
I think the extension was Freemidi 1.3. Buggy. Why do you need Freemidi other than to launch Unisyn? What version of Logic ar you using? How about this?.... Assign Logic and Diver to the emulated modem on the Keyspan, using OMS to address that port only, and connecting it to the Midi Express primary serial port. Assign Unisyn to the emulated printer port on the Keyspan, using Freemidi to address that port only, and connecting it to the network serial port on the Midi Express. Then you need Motu's MTP Console app to cable both the Midi Express serial ports to all of it's midi ports. This way OMS and Freemidi will not cross paths on your Mac. The Mac will address your Midi Express as two independent units, but in reality OMS and Freemidi will have access to the same hardware connected to the single Midi Express. I have an MTP set up this exact way. I used to have a Midi Express configured . But you have to use MTP Console to recable the internal routings to acheive this. Realistically, It's enough to have only one sum input for you main controller in Logic. Diver and Unisyn both use discreet cables, and Sysex uses machine ID's to separate the strings from one another.

What Mac and what OS are you using? Must you use Unisyn? Diver is much more versatile generally, except in a few cases where checksums fail in certain adaptations, with the Kawai K3M for example. I would run Logic and Diver on separate serial ports as described above, and be glichless (unless you must use autolink names, but it's not worth the trouble really).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 04:44:51 AM by coachla »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2014, 04:42:51 AM »
FreeMidi is all the way up to 1.48. That's what I've got installed, but maybe the extension is only from 1.3?

As mentioned linking OMS and FreeMidi was crashing my system and I found that FreeMidi on its own worked much better. I'm using Logic 6.4.3 and a 1.25ghz MDD with OS9.2.2. If I can get FreeMidi working properly by selecting "Use OMS" in the FreeMidi preferences then I'll do that, but again it crashed a lot. Maybe FreeMidi doesn't like my Unitor 8 or something...

Another option would be getting FreeMidi to recognize my Unitor 8, but I think FreeMidi can only address MOTU units as well as actual serial ports. The Unitor 8 HAS serial ports, but I need that serial port for networking two together unfortunately.

I'll take a look over your post again once I've got the Keyspan.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2014, 04:48:36 AM »
You shouldn't have any problem then setting up as I described. It should be very smooth sailing.

When you install and open the Keyspan SX Manager software, don't fuss with any settings. Just make sure the first two ports are set to emulate printer and emulate modem. That's all...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 05:14:11 AM by coachla »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 04:51:33 AM »
You have absolutely no problems at all with "Use OMS" on your rig? That's your main setup? I'm guessing it's the freakin' Unitor 8 since it's a USB model. I remember having to power cycle it to get it working again (even after rebooting), so maybe I'm gonna switch back to some Opcode or MOTU serial units. I'll run some tests and see what happens.

The only thing I'll miss about the Unitor 8s is the AMT feature which gives better midi timing in Logic.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2014, 05:06:03 AM »
The only thing I'll miss about the Unitor 8s is the AMT feature which gives better midi timing in Logic.

i may be wrong but to me that whole AMT thing seemed more like a marketting technique to reassure people that usb was an ok buy for midi because it was made public general knowledge that usb may be inferior to the older serial interface midi units as far as timing goes..  so what happens? all of a sudden they come out with some new technology  + acronyms.. buyer reassurance is what it looks like to me!! a little sprinkling of pixie dust

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2014, 05:06:37 AM »
I just enabled Use OMS in FreeMidi and here's what happened: Unisyn (2.02) crashes and gives a Type 1 error (maybe it was a Type 2, don't remember). After having it crash three times when trying to open I successfully got it open, but then it couldn't communicate with my Korg synth. I noticed my Unitor 8 blinking oddly so I closed Unisyn and the blinking was still there. Then I tried opening Unisyn again and it froze my entire MDD. I remember opening Digital Performer and it also froze my MDD when FreeMidi was using OMS.

That's why I don't use OMS w/FreeMidi but as mentioned I'll try with my Midi Express XT tonight when my Keyspan gets here.

To give a further note, I did get the OMS/FreeMidi combo working a time of two, but I noticed that some bad midi data was being sent to my synth and things went haywire. It's sending patch parameter data that's unlike the stored patch. I'm going to test the same thing when my serial interface is up and running and compare.


Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2014, 05:15:41 AM »
KeyspanSXCard14b3.sea - is that all that I need? Chris posted that earlier.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2014, 05:27:18 AM »
That's the link I gave him...yes. I never used anything but serial MIDI. I would agree the suspicion lies with the Unitor. My main MDD is a dual 1.25 with Logic 4.7 and not running audio, only midi on that machine. Those Types are memory issues. Thats a Freemidi question mark right there.

Don't bother linking them... run both OMS and Freemidi as I outlined. Keep them blind to one another. I've run a 9500 as a remote Diver/Unisyn editing duo quite succesfully this way, sending sysex back to the MDD's Studio 5LX and back out to the hardware racks.

As ChrisNova777 says, it's hype.... All these companies were also being unhappily forced by Apple to make the transition to OSX, and USB was a part of it.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2014, 05:43:43 AM »
\
As ChrisNova777 says, it's hype.... All these companies were also being unhappily forced by Apple to make the transition to OSX, and USB was a part of it.

dont forget that emagic + apple were all cozy cozy with each other at about this time too..
probably they arranged this to have a monopoly + take over the audio spectrum by being 'first to market' with the new USB midi interfaces.. guaranteed emagic had the heads up from apple that they were dropping the serial interfaces.. they could have easily kept geoports on the g3b&w
but then everyone would never have had to buy any new hardware!!! but to be fair (and i dont like  believing in conspiracy theories anyway) USB was evolving at the time.. from 1.1 to 2.0 so it was a big deal. everything was going usb not just midi interfaces...

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2014, 05:48:53 AM »
I just looked over your instructions. The problem I spot is that I'm going to need to network two Express XTs to have all of my hardware going. Right now I've got a Unitor and an AMT8 linked with a serial cable, and the Unitor going into the PC via USB.

Doesn't Opcode make a serial interface with 16 midi ports? I need about 12-13 to get my entire rig hooked up.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2014, 06:11:43 AM »
I just looked over your instructions. The problem I spot is that I'm going to need to network two Express XTs to have all of my hardware going. Right now I've got a Unitor and an AMT8 linked with a serial cable, and the Unitor going into the PC via USB.

Doesn't Opcode make a serial interface with 16 midi ports? I need about 12-13 to get my entire rig hooked up.

i dont think u can network the XT models
u would have to buy a pair of studio 4's on the cheap!

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2014, 06:17:13 AM »
You can.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2014, 06:26:23 AM »
You can.

Quote
The MOTU MIDI Timepiece I, the MIDI Timepiece II and the MIDI Timepiece AV all have networking capabilities. You can network or daisy-chain (daisy chain) any two of the above interfaces for a total of 256 MIDI channels. The Express line of interface (the MIDI Express, the Micro Express and MIDI Express XT) do not have a networking feature. 
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=313.0

not according to what i read!
do u mean connecting one each to its own serial port? that would be fine.. but not to network two on one port.. as the others ones are capable of..
as i outlined clearly in my post about "networking the opcode studio 4" http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=473.0
i see that the images are all broken on that post now. shit!! need to fix;(

diehard/mactron.. do u know why these image paths arent resolving? did u move the directory on the server?
example >> http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/opcode/3.3.GIF
those posts are really informative and i made them for my own self to refer back to it conviently !! as well as the general public of course
but they arent so much useful without the illlustrations

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2014, 06:29:53 AM »
I have the original Mac manual for the Express XT here and it says "you can connect another midi interface to the additional serial port". I took it we could network them by reading that.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2014, 06:34:13 AM »
I have the original Mac manual for the Express XT here and it says "you can connect another midi interface to the additional serial port". I took it we could network them by reading that.

like this image shows


u can connect up to 4 midi interfaces to by connecting 2 together and then connected to the mac via a single serial port on the mac, 2 per serial port with the pair of devices being connected to each other (master/slave configuration) via an additional serial cable (tethered)
so in your scenario i think u would be limited to 2, one per port rather then 2

thats why on these units it also says 9-16 on the port numbers because if its the slave unit then port 1 is actually port 9 etc
the XT models were their cheaper price so they removed that feature + Charged more for their flagship model the MTP..

who knows maybe u can get 4 working because the keyspan card has 4 serial ports where any normal mac would only have 2!

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2014, 06:36:08 AM »
Wait. You just said I couldn't, but I can?

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2014, 06:41:35 AM »
Wait. You just said I couldn't, but I can?

by networking i mean connecting 2 interfaces back to the one port on the mac
look at the animated gif and whereever u see a black arrow pretend thats a serial cable
and thats how the MTPs can be set up

with the XT models u cant connect more then one device per serial port
you can only put 1 device normally to 1 port, but the keyspan card u have ordered has 4 *serial ports* on the pci card itself

coachla was talking about it only seeing 2 *serialports* and not all 4 in oms.. but freemidi saw all 4? i think he said?

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2014, 06:46:01 AM »
Now I'm wondering why there are two serial ports on the XT at all. Maybe it's to just address two different computers or maybe it's a 'thru' port or something.

I believe coachla said Logic can only see two and DP sees all 4 ports. I'm curious if FreeMidi sees all of them.

I might just pick up a Studio 5 LX. It has 13 ports (on the back) and that's just enough to get my racks connected.

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2014, 10:30:21 PM »
Hey guys, the driver Chris posted won't work. It says it found the driver but it's the wrong version. This is a Keyspan SXPRO A2.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2014, 10:39:31 PM »
Hey guys, the driver Chris posted won't work. It says it found the driver but it's the wrong version. This is a Keyspan SXPRO A2.

found it here:
http://www.tripplite.com/support/downloads/type/9/tab/2 (pick software / drivers / keyspan products)

www.tripplite.com/shared/software/Driver/KeyspanSXCard14b3.sea

thats got to be it

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2014, 10:42:45 PM »
It's not. That's for the SX-2 and SX-4 cards. The one I have is an SXPro. For some reason they don't list the SXPro card driver on there. I found it anyway on an old archive with the download still working: http://web.archive.org/web/20061104194650/www.keyspan.com/products/sxpro/homepage.2.downloads.spml

I've also attached it.

It's working fine. I'm gonna go do some testing and see how this works.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2014, 10:46:04 PM »
ok awesome because they definatley dont have it listed on the tripplite site anymore! would have had to hit the web.archive again  ::)
http://members.driverguide.com
is this where u found it? because it seems they list a mac os x driver there aswell
http://download.driverguide.com/driver/SX-PRO4/Keyspan/d377604.html

Device Name
SX-PRO4
Versions
1.2 (24 Oct 2003)
Supported Operating Systems
Mac OSX
Uploader Notes
Platform: Mac OS X (10.1.3 or greater)

it may say "sxpro a2" on the actual pcb card but this card was marketted as the sx pro 4 i believe (on the box it came in)
or simply "keyspan sx pro serial card"

acutally heres a older revision of the card http://s.ecrater.com/stores/132368/4d72ca3e8937d_132368b.jpg
seems to be lacking the oxford chip on this one.. dating back to 1996?
i wouldnt want to do midi on a card that didnt have the oxford chip

ok! i found pics of the original box
check the model number in the lower left corner and it says sxpro4

a2  is probably an indicator of the batch group of cards manufactured or something like a revision indication or something
but of course on ebay when its being sold years later after being ripped out of the insides of a computer they are dissassmbing for parts it becomes whatever it says on the pcb;)

anyway awesome syntho looking forward to some feedback on your results!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 11:00:10 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2014, 12:31:32 AM »
I can't get it to see the interface. Does the MOTU stuff use standard straight-through pinout serial cables (1-1, 2-2, 3-3 etc) or is it of the Crossover variety with the pinout of:

1-2
2-1
3-5
4-4
5-3
6-8
7-7
8-6

???

My Unitor oddly only takes Crossover pinout cables as shown above. I may have to wait until those new serial cables get here. I just wired an old serial cable with the straight-through pinout but I can't get Clockworks to recognize it for some reason.

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2014, 12:42:28 AM »
Ok this is horseshit. It seems the MOTU only takes Crossover pinout cables just like the Unitor. It's finally seeing it.

What is the universal pinout for standard Mac serial cables? I just ordered some brand new ones and the description says it's for connecting just any ol' Mac serial device to your Mac. I was under the impression that ALL Mac serial cables were wired straight-through and the Crossover ones were a special variety.

If those new cables aren't wired right I'm gonna have to resolder. Son of a...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 12:53:53 AM by Syntho »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2014, 01:07:39 AM »
The Opcode Studio 5 manual says:

Quote
If you are using cables
other than the ones supplied with the
Studio 5, please be certain they are equiv-
alent to 8-pin mini-DIN cables such as
Apple’s System Peripheral-8 cable.

http://myoldmac.net/FAQ/MacintoshPlus-Pinouts.php - scroll down to "Apple’s System Peripheral-8 cable" - that's the crossover pinout so I'm guessing just about all midi interfaces use the crossover pinout. I've got to check with this company for the wiring on the cables I ordered.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2014, 02:29:55 AM »
Just now got online.... What's the current issue? I don't use anything different between my Opcode and Motu interfaces and my SXpro. Studio 5LX has 15 in/outs. Get one of these if possible. Or get a couple basic MTPs....cheap now. Doesn't the second port say "network"?

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2014, 02:41:20 AM »
There is no issue currently except that I'm probably going to need new cables. I'm troubleshooting a synth problem right now but once that's over I'll start taking a look around at the OMS/FreeMidi integration and also the Logic physical input thing.

I'm gonna get a Studio 5 most likely.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2014, 03:19:24 AM »
Syntho.... this Studiio 5lx is $50 in Atlanta...
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/msg/4518095951.html

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2014, 03:23:06 AM »
Do you think that I should eventually use both serial ports - one for OMS and one for FreeMidi, or would selecting the "Use OMS" thing be better? I'm thinking that a Studio 5 with the two-serial-port setup sounds more appealing. Too worried about data colliding or being off time when shooting FreeMidi data into OMS. I'm gonna head to ebay and see what I can snatch up.

I need that freakin' Unisyn manual!

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2014, 03:37:34 AM »
Well....I'm using only one, and a Studio 4 on the other Keyspan port. I run Unisyn and Freemidi using OMS. But I almost exclusively use Diver, so i may not have run the gamut of potential collisions as you have. If you're not needing the other serial port, i would separate them if using Unisyn a lot. But see how both work. You may not have any problems using either. There is a Studio 5 Freemidi driver, but not sure if it prefers only one of the connections.. you dont want to have to run the Studio 5 in MTP mode just for Unisyn....Doesn't Diver have all  you need?

Did you see the craigslist link?

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2014, 04:51:29 AM »
I saw, I can get it for around the same on Ebay, gonna try there first.

Unisyn just so happens to have editors that look much better and are easier, and Sounddiver has editors that Unisyn just doesn't have. Gotta run both at the same time so I'll figure it out once I get a Studio 5 and I get my cables sorted.

I'm in Mac Hell again  :o

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2014, 05:41:40 AM »
You can aways write your own Adaptations, if your into that sort of thing...It's not too difficult.

Get the Studio 5 that has a manual if you can.

It's always inspiring to be perplexed.....

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2014, 05:53:08 AM »
I'll just download the manual  -afro-

I'm using a crossover serial cable with two extension cables at the moment. I bet I could squeeze even another on there and it'd be fine. I don't think there would be much of a problem with using extensions, it's just a signal being sent through it and if it's 'there' it's there.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2014, 06:08:31 AM »
Check out Doug Wyatt's musings if there are mentions of cables...not sure.

I'm using 20 year old cables, very long.

With a Studio 5, you may have to run either in Compatibility mode or in OMS mode on both serial ports. Read the manual on this. An MTP can allocate one port to OMS and one to Freemidi because there are MTP drivers in both of those system folders (always use Motu's newest MTP OMS driver, NOT the stock one with OMS's installer when using in Compatibility mode with OMS itself). Maybe the Studio 5 can do both separate addresses in OMS mode if you use the Freemidi Studio 5 driver. I didn't find that driver reliable...just my experience. Swap out the serial connections if no luck with one or the other.  Nevertheless, even if you use Freemidi using OMS, and on a separate port, collisions should not occur. You can always go in and set up virtual controllers and instruments to bifurcate data if necessary.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2014, 07:10:04 AM »
Syntho.... Heads up on this....i just refreshed myself on this....I knew there was a reasonable doubt lingering. I was recalling why I myself wasn't using the aforementioned MTP setup in my last reply suggesting the Studio 5 be substituted. Take note.... Disregard my using the Studio 5  to separate OMS and Freemidi...it's only for Motu interfaces.

The Studio 5 dual serial configuration isn't like two networked MTPs really.  It sends external hardware synth data only into one port whilst the data generated by the Studio 5 itself such as smpte etc is sent into the other. So my suggestion for the MTP setup will not send all data equally into both Studio 5 ports as hoped.

Two MTPs (I do it with one MTP and two separate computers) and possibly two MidiExpresses (likewise with one old MidiExpress and two separate computers) will do this, which is my original suggestion. The serial ports are basically interchangable and carry all types of data. It doesn't translate to the Studio 5. Unfortunately.

Still the Studio 5 reigns supreme for midi timing with the Keyspan....


« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 07:45:46 AM by coachla »

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2014, 08:06:33 AM »
The problem with 2x MTPs is that one of the serial ports for networking another MTP will kill the idea of OMS + FreeMidi separately. You'll have used the additional  port for the 2nd MTP. Unless you can connect it like so:

Keyspan Modem - MTP port A - (MTP port B out) - MTP2 port A
Keyspan Printer - MTP2 port B

But I'm unsure if that would work.

I think I got OMS working OK w/FreeMidi once I pulled those Unitors out of my rig. I'll test some more and just get a Studio 5 if it's stable now.

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2014, 08:16:39 AM »
By the way, which MTP version should I get if I choose that? There's a I, II, AV, and probably some other MOTU midi interfaces that'll work just fine.

I'm hooping I can get OMS/FreeMidi working together though. I'll get a Studio 5 in that case.

Offline coachla

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2014, 08:29:25 AM »
II....not serial  AV. Network as you describe...it works.

The other option is to do on your one computer what i do on two. I, as a second editing option, can send all sysex to and from the Studio 5 via remote cpu using  two midi cables and one midi express. You can internally route both interfaces to do this. So you would put your XT on the Freemidi printer port and the Studio 5 on the OMS modem port. That is the solution to separating them. The two midi cables go from one pair of in/outs on the XT to one pair of in/outs on the Studio 5. It actually handles all the data, though I don't often rely on this because, as I said, the main MDD can do it all using OMS.

Signing out....will check in over the next 24 hours...

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2014, 08:40:07 AM »
I think I'm just gonna get a Studio 5. If you can get OMS and FreeMidi playing together fine, I should be able to as well. It was fine from what I remembered but I'm not in the studio at the moment.

Now I just have to worry about soldering those freakin' cables  >:(

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2014, 08:52:17 AM »
the MTP 1,2 + AV all have the same networking capabilities of combining into a pair (master/slave) configuration to be 1-8,9-16 making 16 ins + outs on a single mac serial port
so does the MTP AV USB it just costs a bit more, but it still has the serial connection capability

if u have a need for 13+ midi ins + outs SIMULTANEOUSLY then it sounds like the studio 5 would be a good buy
i also am a fan of it having its own built in PSU and taking a standard 120v power lead. (personallly i hate having too many wall wart power supplies)
but keep in mind that an internal psu can also be a problem if it shorts out .. i have also seen a bunch of studio 5LX being sold "For parts" so be carefull of the condition of the unit u purchase.

i really dont understand all this stuff about the cables being crossover cables?
were u able to confirm CoachLA's experience that the card works with the driver for at least one midi mgmt package (OMS or FREEmidi) ?

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2014, 08:56:51 AM »
It works completely fine in both OMS and FreeMidi. Get one of those cards, they're good. Just use the driver I posted  -afro-

I kinda want to buy another one for a backup  ;D

There are different pinouts/wirings for serial cables. Some Mac products take a standard, straight-through-wired (1-1, 2-2, 3-3 etc) wiring, but the Emagic, Opcode, and MOTU midi interfaces ALL take a different wiring. I posted it above.

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2014, 09:02:14 AM »
This is the correct wiring for a Minidin 8-pin serial cable to connect all of the aforementioned midi interfaces to your serial ports:



However ignore where it says Female and Male. You need a Male to Male serial cable with that same wiring for this to work.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2014, 09:06:23 AM »
the pin configuration (minidin8) is not exclusive to apple/mac's there are other products that used that same configuration or similar configurations

all the cables are the same as far as i know if u have a cable that is wired differently u have been sold a cable that is not a mac serial cable
someones probably goof'd and sold u a cable that isnt a mac cable at all even tho it looks like one, if u have a cable that doesnt work.


Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2014, 09:11:41 AM »
Search around on Ebay and Google. 99% of the time you'll encounter straight-through wiring on Mac serial cables.

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2014, 09:53:21 AM »
Search around on Ebay and Google. 99% of the time you'll encounter straight-through wiring on Mac serial cables.

ive never had a problem of having a cable that didnt work
all of the mac cables that i own all function the same way
both the ones that were packaged with my midi interfaces when i bought them
and the ones i bought from an electronics surplus store in my area
function the same

i dont need to worry about the pinout configuration
i pick up the cable and plug it in on both ends and thats the end of it;)

if u want to call them crossover cables then i guess u can call them crossover cables
they are all normal mac serial cables for me and they all work..

like i said in my other post i think u were given a cable that is wired differently for some other implentation or use other then with geoport/serial?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeoPort

Quote
The table below shows the name and purpose of the various pins in the GeoPort-enabled serial connector when used in GeoPort, RS-422 (LocalTalk) and RS-232 modes.

 Pin #   GeoPort    RS-422    RS-232    Name
   1      SCLK       HSKo      DTR      Serial Clock (out), Handshake Out, Data Terminal Ready
   2      SCLK       HSKi      DSR      Serial Clock (in), Handshake In, Data Set Ready
   3      TxD-       TxD-      TD       Transmit data (-ve signal)
   4      GND        GND       GND      Cable ground
   5      RxD-       RxD-      RD       Receive data (-ve signal)
   6      TxD+       TxD+               Transmit data (+ve signal)
   7      TxHS       GPi       CD       Wakeup/DMA Request, General Purpose input, Carrier Detect
   8      RxD+       RxD+      (ground) Receive data (+ve signal)
   9      +5 V                          Power, 350 mA maximum
notice this table is detailing the difference between RS-422 specification and the RS-232 specification
both of which use the same pin scheme

i think that this is the source of your issues with cables.. u have been given a rs-232 cable instead of a rs-422 cable
or vice versa - i think this is kind of confusing to really get to the bottom of because its antiquated and there was alot of different
serial configurations for specific purposes.. i think that most of the normal mac serial cables did indeed have this crossover
rx -> tx and tx-> rx configuration.. maybe the straight thru cables were inteded as "Extension" cables of some sort?

http://www.omega.com/techref/das/rs-232-422-485.html

this page is talking about some differences between the two specs
saying that 422 is builtin support for daisy chaining devices (referd to here as multi-drop?)
whereas 232 does not support this and also says that pcs dont come with rs-422 ports at all

with this info i think its safe to say that the mac port is rs-422
and thats the reason why the mtp's have this networking feature



« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 10:17:53 AM by chrisNova777 »

supernova777

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2014, 10:10:10 AM »
It works completely fine in both OMS and FreeMidi. Get one of those cards, they're good. Just use the driver I posted  -afro-

just curious about your exact configuration that you tested..
keyspan sxpro4 + midi express XT serial interface /w OMS?
am i right?

is the unit u have? (see attach)

oops that ones the usb model
i meant to attach this:

Offline Syntho

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Re: keyspan sx serial cards
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2014, 10:23:06 AM »
There are crossover/null modem/TX-RX serial cables for old Mac printers and modems, and serial cables that are wired straight-through (also for Macs). The former is harder to find these days, especially in longer lengths, and the latter is what most will run into if they run a search for Mac serial cables. You just happened to get lucky that you got some old printer/modem crossovers at the Surplus store.


Keyspan - Express XT - OMS/FreeMidi. That's it  -afro-