Mac OS 9 Lives! (Classic Mac OS Forum)

Classic Mac Hardware (Troubleshooting, Upgrading, & Modifying) => DAW - Digital Audio Workstation (Audio Interfaces & MIDI Hardware) => Topic started by: supernova777 on June 13, 2014, 03:55:05 PM

Title: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 13, 2014, 03:55:05 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KeySpan-SxPRO-A2-PCI-Card-4-Port-/141281771604?pt=US_Internal_Port_Expansion_Cards&hash=item20e50cc054
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1176.0;attach=1777;image)

3 available for 29.99$ each

does anyone know if these are good for connections to midi interfaces???
do they require extensions like the megawolf romulus/remus?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: MacTron on June 13, 2014, 04:21:05 PM
Without drivers can work the Stealth Serial Port (DS8925M chip based) and -may be- the griffin G-port ...
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 13, 2014, 04:25:55 PM
hey mactron
both the stealth + g4port do still require + have small extensions ..
they work 100% tho.. unlike this megawolf card im having problems with

the question re: the keyspan card above tho. is this ok just for printers, tablets etc
or is this ok for midi?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: MacTron on June 13, 2014, 04:43:23 PM
hey mactron
both the stealth + g4port do still require + have small extensions ..

The "small extensions" are for the "Chooser" only, if you plan to use a old serial port printer...
For MIDI use aren't necessary. I have use it in this way "driver-less" for over ten years! LOL

Quote
they work 100% tho.. unlike this megawolf card im having problems with
the question re: the keyspan card above tho. is this ok just for printers, tablets etc
or is this ok for midi?
I don't know for sure... but if you'll going to spend money and a PCI slot on your computer just for serial ports (for MIDI use), -may be- better to find a PCI card with MIDI in/out... I know this may be "another" problem...

Any way, the  Stealth or G4port are the best solutions IMHO.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 13, 2014, 05:32:37 PM
it would almost be cheaper, easier, + more available now,  to get a g3 that already has a serial port + get a cpu upgrade card to upgrade it;)

whats the highest cpu of a beige g3 upgrade card? 1ghz? or is it 500mhz?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 13, 2014, 11:22:16 PM
some threads:

http://www.appsolutionsworld.com/forums/os9-driver-software-for-keyspan-sx-pro-pci-card-46751.asp

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/motu-issue-usb-midi-interfaces-compatible-serial-options/

http://www.cnet.com/news/keyspan-sx-pro-serial-card-problems-reported/ (May 24, 1999)

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=58973

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=5268

http://lists.apple.com/archives/coreaudio-api/2003/Nov/msg00253.html

Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 21, 2014, 05:22:10 PM
apparently these cards do not support oms
according to this post:
(see bottom)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Bfycigkk4QgJ:199.193.246.201/showthread.php%3Ft%3D3495+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

Quote
Hey Daniel,
I have been using Gallery 009 with my Betacam deck and the Keyspan card (4 port)for three years without a hitch. This solution is tighter and far more versatile than machine control within Tools.
I found machine control to have a slight lag, although I havn`t tried it in 5.1 and up.
Now however I am using the Megawolf Romulus card for all my serial needs because the Keyspan card did not support OMS
Good Luck.

but reading more from info from the archived hinton instruments site it seems it may be possible to run freemidi, in OMS mode? for OMS compatibility?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on June 25, 2014, 12:19:10 AM
Fabulous OMS card on my G41.25 dual MDD with Studio 5 and Studio 4. 10 years running without a single problem. It needs Keyspan extensions. OS9 only...Logic 4 (5&6 only sum the OMS inputs, will not sense discreet input ports) and DP under Free MIDI or OMS. Emulates modem and printer. Absolutely hands-down the best card, and I have Stealth for G4 & G5 as well as Keyspan USB ports to compare.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 25, 2014, 05:27:33 AM
thanks so much for that information COACHLA!!!
have u got the extensions that you can share before i order one for my G3 450mhz??
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on June 25, 2014, 05:58:29 AM
Try this and post if successful. Will check back later tonight.
http://www.tripplite.com/support/downloads/type/9/tab/2
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 26, 2014, 07:33:41 AM
looks good
attached

i dont have a card myself so i cant test.. if u could test?? would be much appreciated..
im guessing it works tho!
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on June 29, 2014, 01:52:22 AM
Be aware that only two ports will be available for MIDI in Logic. DP list all 4, but as I recall they are duplicates actually, unless you discover otherwise, by my findings. Great card, very little jitter.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 29, 2014, 02:01:04 AM
Be aware that only two ports will be available for MIDI in Logic. DP list all 4, but as I recall they are duplicates actually, unless you discover otherwise, by my findings. Great card, very little jitter.

hey coachla..
i will volunteer to investigate this further. i will order a keyspan card and report back to u with my findings this will probably take about 5 weeks or so for me to get the card mailed to me and actually do the testing tho but i feel its a worthwhile thing to investigate as hinton instruments reported these Oxford chip powered serial pci devices as having the best midi timing accuracy
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on June 29, 2014, 04:06:31 AM
Are you referring to my posts about Logic 5&6 OMS and Sum input only? That's a real mystery. But on the subject of the Keyspan: You have to use OMS or Freemidi with the Keyspan. There are OSX drivers, but not for MIDI. The first two ports can emulate the printer and modem , in that order. I know the 4 ports will show in FreeMIDI setup, however I distinctly recall finding that only two are functional. On  one of the MDDs I run a Studio 5 and Studio 4, and it is GREAT. I don't run audio in Logic, only the MIDI sequencer. Sounddiver runs alongside, as does Unisyn when necessary, using OMS. The MDD model is a very smooth ride. I should add that I have three networked via Gigabit ethernet  switch, all while OMS is active. Now if you're so inclined, you can have a server connected running Tiger, then transfers for backups to it are very quick as opposed to those from OS9 to OS9 which are only 1.5 MBsec. Most often I run just the main MDD though. Simple is better.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 29, 2014, 04:14:31 AM
Now if you're so inclined, you can have a server connected running Tiger, then transfers for backups to it are very quick as opposed to those from OS9 to OS9 which are only 1.5 MBsec. Most often I run just the main MDD though. Simple is better.

i use a BSD based file server called nas4free that runs an AFP daemon i can connect to via chooser->appleshare
it gives me the fastest file transfers over gigabit ethernet that ive ever seen on mac os 9!
surely mac os x must also support the AFP protocol! is this what you use for your shares from tiger X?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on June 29, 2014, 04:23:31 AM
Yes...what's the machine running the BSD server?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on June 29, 2014, 04:37:52 AM
Yes...what's the machine running the BSD server?

its my old main pc from about 2006..
motherboard is an asus p5b deluxe wifi/ap
its got 4 x 1.0 Tb drives in it right now (with free sata ports for expansion) which is giving me like 3TB of fault redundant space. i have other posts about it here if u look!

for example i just transfered 2gb in less then 60 seconds from my mdd to this server..
it makes my life so much easier;)
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 13, 2014, 09:52:42 PM
I'll probably grab a Keyspan, I can't find a G4port or Stealth. I see the extensions were posted so I hope that's all I need to get it working.

I have an older MOTU Midi Express XT that would be nice to get up and running. As long as it's compatible with FreeMidi I'm good.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 13, 2014, 10:11:19 PM
Are you referring to my posts about Logic 5&6 OMS and Sum input only? That's a real mystery. But on the subject of the Keyspan: You have to use OMS or Freemidi with the Keyspan. There are OSX drivers, but not for MIDI. The first two ports can emulate the printer and modem , in that order. I know the 4 ports will show in FreeMIDI setup, however I distinctly recall finding that only two are functional. On  one of the MDDs I run a Studio 5 and Studio 4, and it is GREAT. I don't run audio in Logic, only the MIDI sequencer. Sounddiver runs alongside, as does Unisyn when necessary, using OMS. The MDD model is a very smooth ride. I should add that I have three networked via Gigabit ethernet  switch, all while OMS is active. Now if you're so inclined, you can have a server connected running Tiger, then transfers for backups to it are very quick as opposed to those from OS9 to OS9 which are only 1.5 MBsec. Most often I run just the main MDD though. Simple is better.

using the term "ports" is vague. im assuming u mean the actual "serial ports" on the card.. and not "midi ports" provided by a connected interface.

2 serial ports is all that will ever be able to work with oms as oms was written for real macs that only had 2 serial ports so its only written to handle 2 serial ports..  other names for these 'ports' include: rs-422, rs-232, geoport
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 13, 2014, 10:58:45 PM
Just bought one of those cards. Got some 25ft serial cables to go along with it as well.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 13, 2014, 11:23:37 PM
Hey Coachla, have you had any trouble with FreeMidi being integrated with OMS? It seems to crash, and crash, and crash my system but works fine when they're not interlinked.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 14, 2014, 12:03:50 AM
Hey Coachla, have you had any trouble with FreeMidi being integrated with OMS? It seems to crash, and crash, and crash my system but works fine when they're not interlinked.

yeah i was going to say on the other thread, re unisyn, freemidi + oms together? yikes... i didnt know u could use both at the same time i thought it was one or the other installed at any given time..

Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 14, 2014, 12:16:10 AM
You can use both at the same time, independently, and that works much better than having them actually 'linked' and speaking together. That's why I bought this Keyspan card, plus I've got some other serial gear to connect so it only made sense to get one.

When I selected for FreeMidi to use itself instead of sending the data to OMS, Unisyn stopped crashing, at least for now. I hope that keeps up.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 14, 2014, 06:07:02 AM
OMS and Freemidi can address different ports, modem or printer, so you can use Diver and Unisyn simultaneously. You can also choose to have Freemidi use OMS exclusively. Another option is to use the Freemidi OMS emulator extension, one caveat being it only addresses the first port of Unity DS-1, regardless of which one you choose to use.

Okay... let's put it this way: Can anyone verify on any computer midi data coming into anything but the sum input in Logic 5 or 6's physical input object in the environment? It's a long standing bug. Only the topmost sum input brings in data. The individual inputs below the sum input on the physical input object do not work. In Logic, these are called midi ports or cables. The sum input is the sum of all the input cables below. On an MTP there are 8. A Studio 5 has 15. The physical input represents those cables on the interface. But in reality only the sum input works.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 14, 2014, 06:48:24 AM
Can Sounddiver use FreeMidi? I know Logic can because you said so. How are you personally using FreeMidi/OMS? I kept crashing and crashing and crashing so I chose "Use FreeMidi" instead of FreeMidi using OMS. I don't know if the OMS emulator extension you mentioned is in use that way or so.

(http://i.imgur.com/Co40SRo.jpg)

I don't have the printer or modem ports running just yet. Actually, I don't know why Logic is showing these P/M ports at all considering my machine doesn't have any (yet... guess it's left over from serial macs?). As far as I know all midi data coming into Logic goes through the Sum until you replug a cable, which cuts it off from the Sum and goes wherever you connect the cable to.

There's an area in Logic where "Midi Communications" or whatever it's titled is - go there and go to OMS Input Mapping. I had to select my master midi controller as one of the objects in this area so I could actually get data into Logic from it. It only gives you about 8 inputs (8 flip menus for 8 objects) IIRC, but there's a setting above that that you can tick called something like "Connect all real inputs..." and that'll turn on all inputs instead of setting them manually. Your entire midi rig's outputs will be blasting into Logic with that setting on.

If you disable OMS, I'm pretty positive the individual output cables will work, but to do this with OMS on, try the input mapping page. There's also Output mapping connections for you to set up in the same area as well and that's good for when you don't want to use OMS.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: IIO on July 14, 2014, 07:05:57 AM

sounddiver can not use freemidi itself, but fgreemidi can be used alongside OMS and there is a freemidi OMS driver for that reason.

i remember vaguely that i installed and tested freemidi "in" OMS for the beta test of "modularing" software and it worked.

however i believe that you are better advised not to mix up your tinker corner with your serious studio work corner. :) OMS and sounddiver and mac os 9 are unstable enough, and if you really want to control 20 hardware devices to produce music i wouldnt do that with 7.5., freemidi,  and serial PCI cards of unknown origin but get an usb interface from motu or steinberg for 80 euro for that.

btw sounddiver - yesterday i was thinking about we should collect all ewxisting additional, third party sounddvier extensions here. before they disappear forever.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 15, 2014, 05:28:23 AM
The OMS emulator extension is quite old but it allows you to use Freemidi impersonating OMS. OMS need not be installed... in this case Freemidi is the only one running. I know with this scenario Logic 4 versions work, though I would not go that route. The other way is to use OMS (i.e. for Sounddiver), and choose use OMS in Freemidi prefs. This way Freemidi (i.e. for DP) is slaved to OMS. Personally I never found Freemidi to be friendly or stable, especially on SCSI Macs. I have run OMS with Logic and Sounddiver and Unisyn simultaneously without any problems. Note, however, I don't record audio or use VSTs on my sequencing MDD with Logic. If I were to run DP or Unisyn that require Freemidi, I would choose use OMS if available in Freemidi prefs.

Keyspan PCI is solid.... very little jitter on a rig with hardware racks. USB is a power drain and doesn't handshake without delay. But if you've got it to work for you, by all means stay with it. There are so many variables....

Two Studio 5's networked would use M1-M30 on a real modem port without OMS. But only the sum input works even without OMS. My point is that the individual inputs do not work in Logic 5&6. Individual outputs always work, no problem.

There are many things in Logic that will make no sense until you use it enough and discover that in Logic there is ALWAYS a workaround. My favorite is the alert box: "Circular Structure! Please report to Emagic how you did this!" ( You will see that you are now recording in the trash folder or some such nonsense.)

So everyone who sees that alert should call Apple and report it. That'll teach them for buying out Emagic.....

Syntho, I'm aware of how things are supposed to work, as you describe. I'm only talking about input cables not working, i.e. M1-M32 and P1-P32.

How about a screenshot of the monitor showing data and connected to M1-M8 physical inputs using OMS? Just kidding.... it was one of those steps down in the evolution of Logic from version 4. But it really is only significant if you are inputting multiple hardware device data...things could get messy at only the sum input.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 15, 2014, 07:05:58 AM
When my keyspan card gets here I'll check it out and let you know if it does the same.

Why wouldn't you go the route of using the old OMS emulator extension? Had trouble with it?

For some reason my system was brought to a halt and everything kept crashing (Unisyn in particular). My midi interface (Unitor 8) would lock up and need to be reset. I believe my setup was the 2nd method you mentioned, the one where FreeMidi sends data to OMS via selecting "Use OMS" in FreeMidi. If I can work out the bug that's making me crash, that would probably be my permanent setup. It will be great to use both Unisyn and Sounddiver simultaneously...

EDIT: Also, is it commonplace to link two serial devices? My Midi Express XT has two serial ports so maybe I can use another serial cable to network the two instead of using two of the Keyspan's ports. If it goes to M32 and P32, then that means I can probably network 4 of them together.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 16, 2014, 04:33:00 AM
I think the extension was Freemidi 1.3. Buggy. Why do you need Freemidi other than to launch Unisyn? What version of Logic ar you using? How about this?.... Assign Logic and Diver to the emulated modem on the Keyspan, using OMS to address that port only, and connecting it to the Midi Express primary serial port. Assign Unisyn to the emulated printer port on the Keyspan, using Freemidi to address that port only, and connecting it to the network serial port on the Midi Express. Then you need Motu's MTP Console app to cable both the Midi Express serial ports to all of it's midi ports. This way OMS and Freemidi will not cross paths on your Mac. The Mac will address your Midi Express as two independent units, but in reality OMS and Freemidi will have access to the same hardware connected to the single Midi Express. I have an MTP set up this exact way. I used to have a Midi Express configured . But you have to use MTP Console to recable the internal routings to acheive this. Realistically, It's enough to have only one sum input for you main controller in Logic. Diver and Unisyn both use discreet cables, and Sysex uses machine ID's to separate the strings from one another.

What Mac and what OS are you using? Must you use Unisyn? Diver is much more versatile generally, except in a few cases where checksums fail in certain adaptations, with the Kawai K3M for example. I would run Logic and Diver on separate serial ports as described above, and be glichless (unless you must use autolink names, but it's not worth the trouble really).
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 04:42:51 AM
FreeMidi is all the way up to 1.48. That's what I've got installed, but maybe the extension is only from 1.3?

As mentioned linking OMS and FreeMidi was crashing my system and I found that FreeMidi on its own worked much better. I'm using Logic 6.4.3 and a 1.25ghz MDD with OS9.2.2. If I can get FreeMidi working properly by selecting "Use OMS" in the FreeMidi preferences then I'll do that, but again it crashed a lot. Maybe FreeMidi doesn't like my Unitor 8 or something...

Another option would be getting FreeMidi to recognize my Unitor 8, but I think FreeMidi can only address MOTU units as well as actual serial ports. The Unitor 8 HAS serial ports, but I need that serial port for networking two together unfortunately.

I'll take a look over your post again once I've got the Keyspan.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 16, 2014, 04:48:36 AM
You shouldn't have any problem then setting up as I described. It should be very smooth sailing.

When you install and open the Keyspan SX Manager software, don't fuss with any settings. Just make sure the first two ports are set to emulate printer and emulate modem. That's all...
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 04:51:33 AM
You have absolutely no problems at all with "Use OMS" on your rig? That's your main setup? I'm guessing it's the freakin' Unitor 8 since it's a USB model. I remember having to power cycle it to get it working again (even after rebooting), so maybe I'm gonna switch back to some Opcode or MOTU serial units. I'll run some tests and see what happens.

The only thing I'll miss about the Unitor 8s is the AMT feature which gives better midi timing in Logic.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 05:06:03 AM
The only thing I'll miss about the Unitor 8s is the AMT feature which gives better midi timing in Logic.

i may be wrong but to me that whole AMT thing seemed more like a marketting technique to reassure people that usb was an ok buy for midi because it was made public general knowledge that usb may be inferior to the older serial interface midi units as far as timing goes..  so what happens? all of a sudden they come out with some new technology  + acronyms.. buyer reassurance is what it looks like to me!! a little sprinkling of pixie dust
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 05:06:37 AM
I just enabled Use OMS in FreeMidi and here's what happened: Unisyn (2.02) crashes and gives a Type 1 error (maybe it was a Type 2, don't remember). After having it crash three times when trying to open I successfully got it open, but then it couldn't communicate with my Korg synth. I noticed my Unitor 8 blinking oddly so I closed Unisyn and the blinking was still there. Then I tried opening Unisyn again and it froze my entire MDD. I remember opening Digital Performer and it also froze my MDD when FreeMidi was using OMS.

That's why I don't use OMS w/FreeMidi but as mentioned I'll try with my Midi Express XT tonight when my Keyspan gets here.

To give a further note, I did get the OMS/FreeMidi combo working a time of two, but I noticed that some bad midi data was being sent to my synth and things went haywire. It's sending patch parameter data that's unlike the stored patch. I'm going to test the same thing when my serial interface is up and running and compare.

Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 05:15:41 AM
KeyspanSXCard14b3.sea - is that all that I need? Chris posted that earlier.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 16, 2014, 05:27:18 AM
That's the link I gave him...yes. I never used anything but serial MIDI. I would agree the suspicion lies with the Unitor. My main MDD is a dual 1.25 with Logic 4.7 and not running audio, only midi on that machine. Those Types are memory issues. Thats a Freemidi question mark right there.

Don't bother linking them... run both OMS and Freemidi as I outlined. Keep them blind to one another. I've run a 9500 as a remote Diver/Unisyn editing duo quite succesfully this way, sending sysex back to the MDD's Studio 5LX and back out to the hardware racks.

As ChrisNova777 says, it's hype.... All these companies were also being unhappily forced by Apple to make the transition to OSX, and USB was a part of it.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 05:43:43 AM
\
As ChrisNova777 says, it's hype.... All these companies were also being unhappily forced by Apple to make the transition to OSX, and USB was a part of it.

dont forget that emagic + apple were all cozy cozy with each other at about this time too..
probably they arranged this to have a monopoly + take over the audio spectrum by being 'first to market' with the new USB midi interfaces.. guaranteed emagic had the heads up from apple that they were dropping the serial interfaces.. they could have easily kept geoports on the g3b&w
but then everyone would never have had to buy any new hardware!!! but to be fair (and i dont like  believing in conspiracy theories anyway) USB was evolving at the time.. from 1.1 to 2.0 so it was a big deal. everything was going usb not just midi interfaces...
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 05:48:53 AM
I just looked over your instructions. The problem I spot is that I'm going to need to network two Express XTs to have all of my hardware going. Right now I've got a Unitor and an AMT8 linked with a serial cable, and the Unitor going into the PC via USB.

Doesn't Opcode make a serial interface with 16 midi ports? I need about 12-13 to get my entire rig hooked up.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 06:11:43 AM
I just looked over your instructions. The problem I spot is that I'm going to need to network two Express XTs to have all of my hardware going. Right now I've got a Unitor and an AMT8 linked with a serial cable, and the Unitor going into the PC via USB.

Doesn't Opcode make a serial interface with 16 midi ports? I need about 12-13 to get my entire rig hooked up.

i dont think u can network the XT models
u would have to buy a pair of studio 4's on the cheap!
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 06:17:13 AM
You can.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 06:26:23 AM
You can.

Quote
The MOTU MIDI Timepiece I, the MIDI Timepiece II and the MIDI Timepiece AV all have networking capabilities. You can network or daisy-chain (daisy chain) any two of the above interfaces for a total of 256 MIDI channels. The Express line of interface (the MIDI Express, the Micro Express and MIDI Express XT) do not have a networking feature. 
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=313.0

not according to what i read!
do u mean connecting one each to its own serial port? that would be fine.. but not to network two on one port.. as the others ones are capable of..
as i outlined clearly in my post about "networking the opcode studio 4" http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=473.0
i see that the images are all broken on that post now. shit!! need to fix;(

diehard/mactron.. do u know why these image paths arent resolving? did u move the directory on the server?
example >> http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/opcode/3.3.GIF
those posts are really informative and i made them for my own self to refer back to it conviently !! as well as the general public of course
but they arent so much useful without the illlustrations
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 06:29:53 AM
I have the original Mac manual for the Express XT here and it says "you can connect another midi interface to the additional serial port". I took it we could network them by reading that.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 06:34:13 AM
I have the original Mac manual for the Express XT here and it says "you can connect another midi interface to the additional serial port". I took it we could network them by reading that.

like this image shows
(http://web.archive.org/web/20010831102213im_/http://motu.com/english/hardware/mtpav/images/mtpnet.gif)

u can connect up to 4 midi interfaces to by connecting 2 together and then connected to the mac via a single serial port on the mac, 2 per serial port with the pair of devices being connected to each other (master/slave configuration) via an additional serial cable (tethered)
so in your scenario i think u would be limited to 2, one per port rather then 2

thats why on these units it also says 9-16 on the port numbers because if its the slave unit then port 1 is actually port 9 etc
the XT models were their cheaper price so they removed that feature + Charged more for their flagship model the MTP..

who knows maybe u can get 4 working because the keyspan card has 4 serial ports where any normal mac would only have 2!
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 06:36:08 AM
Wait. You just said I couldn't, but I can?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 06:41:35 AM
Wait. You just said I couldn't, but I can?

by networking i mean connecting 2 interfaces back to the one port on the mac
look at the animated gif and whereever u see a black arrow pretend thats a serial cable
and thats how the MTPs can be set up

with the XT models u cant connect more then one device per serial port
you can only put 1 device normally to 1 port, but the keyspan card u have ordered has 4 *serial ports* on the pci card itself

coachla was talking about it only seeing 2 *serialports* and not all 4 in oms.. but freemidi saw all 4? i think he said?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 06:46:01 AM
Now I'm wondering why there are two serial ports on the XT at all. Maybe it's to just address two different computers or maybe it's a 'thru' port or something.

I believe coachla said Logic can only see two and DP sees all 4 ports. I'm curious if FreeMidi sees all of them.

I might just pick up a Studio 5 LX. It has 13 ports (on the back) and that's just enough to get my racks connected.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 10:30:21 PM
Hey guys, the driver Chris posted won't work. It says it found the driver but it's the wrong version. This is a Keyspan SXPRO A2.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 10:39:31 PM
Hey guys, the driver Chris posted won't work. It says it found the driver but it's the wrong version. This is a Keyspan SXPRO A2.

found it here:
http://www.tripplite.com/support/downloads/type/9/tab/2 (pick software / drivers / keyspan products)

www.tripplite.com/shared/software/Driver/KeyspanSXCard14b3.sea

thats got to be it
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 16, 2014, 10:42:45 PM
It's not. That's for the SX-2 and SX-4 cards. The one I have is an SXPro. For some reason they don't list the SXPro card driver on there. I found it anyway on an old archive with the download still working: http://web.archive.org/web/20061104194650/www.keyspan.com/products/sxpro/homepage.2.downloads.spml

I've also attached it.

It's working fine. I'm gonna go do some testing and see how this works.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 16, 2014, 10:46:04 PM
ok awesome because they definatley dont have it listed on the tripplite site anymore! would have had to hit the web.archive again  ::)
http://members.driverguide.com (http://tinyurl.com/p8e3stv)
is this where u found it? because it seems they list a mac os x driver there aswell
http://download.driverguide.com/driver/SX-PRO4/Keyspan/d377604.html

Device Name
SX-PRO4
Versions
1.2 (24 Oct 2003)
Supported Operating Systems
Mac OSX
Uploader Notes
Platform: Mac OS X (10.1.3 or greater)

it may say "sxpro a2" on the actual pcb card but this card was marketted as the sx pro 4 i believe (on the box it came in)
or simply "keyspan sx pro serial card"

acutally heres a older revision of the card http://s.ecrater.com/stores/132368/4d72ca3e8937d_132368b.jpg
seems to be lacking the oxford chip on this one.. dating back to 1996?
i wouldnt want to do midi on a card that didnt have the oxford chip

ok! i found pics of the original box
check the model number in the lower left corner and it says sxpro4

a2  is probably an indicator of the batch group of cards manufactured or something like a revision indication or something
but of course on ebay when its being sold years later after being ripped out of the insides of a computer they are dissassmbing for parts it becomes whatever it says on the pcb;)

anyway awesome syntho looking forward to some feedback on your results!
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 12:31:32 AM
I can't get it to see the interface. Does the MOTU stuff use standard straight-through pinout serial cables (1-1, 2-2, 3-3 etc) or is it of the Crossover variety with the pinout of:

1-2
2-1
3-5
4-4
5-3
6-8
7-7
8-6

???

My Unitor oddly only takes Crossover pinout cables as shown above. I may have to wait until those new serial cables get here. I just wired an old serial cable with the straight-through pinout but I can't get Clockworks to recognize it for some reason.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 12:42:28 AM
Ok this is horseshit. It seems the MOTU only takes Crossover pinout cables just like the Unitor. It's finally seeing it.

What is the universal pinout for standard Mac serial cables? I just ordered some brand new ones and the description says it's for connecting just any ol' Mac serial device to your Mac. I was under the impression that ALL Mac serial cables were wired straight-through and the Crossover ones were a special variety.

If those new cables aren't wired right I'm gonna have to resolder. Son of a...
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 01:07:39 AM
The Opcode Studio 5 manual says:

Quote
If you are using cables
other than the ones supplied with the
Studio 5, please be certain they are equiv-
alent to 8-pin mini-DIN cables such as
Apple’s System Peripheral-8 cable.

http://myoldmac.net/FAQ/MacintoshPlus-Pinouts.php - scroll down to "Apple’s System Peripheral-8 cable" - that's the crossover pinout so I'm guessing just about all midi interfaces use the crossover pinout. I've got to check with this company for the wiring on the cables I ordered.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 17, 2014, 02:29:55 AM
Just now got online.... What's the current issue? I don't use anything different between my Opcode and Motu interfaces and my SXpro. Studio 5LX has 15 in/outs. Get one of these if possible. Or get a couple basic MTPs....cheap now. Doesn't the second port say "network"?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 02:41:20 AM
There is no issue currently except that I'm probably going to need new cables. I'm troubleshooting a synth problem right now but once that's over I'll start taking a look around at the OMS/FreeMidi integration and also the Logic physical input thing.

I'm gonna get a Studio 5 most likely.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 17, 2014, 03:19:24 AM
Syntho.... this Studiio 5lx is $50 in Atlanta...
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/msg/4518095951.html
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 03:23:06 AM
Do you think that I should eventually use both serial ports - one for OMS and one for FreeMidi, or would selecting the "Use OMS" thing be better? I'm thinking that a Studio 5 with the two-serial-port setup sounds more appealing. Too worried about data colliding or being off time when shooting FreeMidi data into OMS. I'm gonna head to ebay and see what I can snatch up.

I need that freakin' Unisyn manual!
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 17, 2014, 03:37:34 AM
Well....I'm using only one, and a Studio 4 on the other Keyspan port. I run Unisyn and Freemidi using OMS. But I almost exclusively use Diver, so i may not have run the gamut of potential collisions as you have. If you're not needing the other serial port, i would separate them if using Unisyn a lot. But see how both work. You may not have any problems using either. There is a Studio 5 Freemidi driver, but not sure if it prefers only one of the connections.. you dont want to have to run the Studio 5 in MTP mode just for Unisyn....Doesn't Diver have all  you need?

Did you see the craigslist link?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 04:51:29 AM
I saw, I can get it for around the same on Ebay, gonna try there first.

Unisyn just so happens to have editors that look much better and are easier, and Sounddiver has editors that Unisyn just doesn't have. Gotta run both at the same time so I'll figure it out once I get a Studio 5 and I get my cables sorted.

I'm in Mac Hell again  :o
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 17, 2014, 05:41:40 AM
You can aways write your own Adaptations, if your into that sort of thing...It's not too difficult.

Get the Studio 5 that has a manual if you can.

It's always inspiring to be perplexed.....
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 05:53:08 AM
I'll just download the manual  -afro-

I'm using a crossover serial cable with two extension cables at the moment. I bet I could squeeze even another on there and it'd be fine. I don't think there would be much of a problem with using extensions, it's just a signal being sent through it and if it's 'there' it's there.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 17, 2014, 06:08:31 AM
Check out Doug Wyatt's musings if there are mentions of cables...not sure.

I'm using 20 year old cables, very long.

With a Studio 5, you may have to run either in Compatibility mode or in OMS mode on both serial ports. Read the manual on this. An MTP can allocate one port to OMS and one to Freemidi because there are MTP drivers in both of those system folders (always use Motu's newest MTP OMS driver, NOT the stock one with OMS's installer when using in Compatibility mode with OMS itself). Maybe the Studio 5 can do both separate addresses in OMS mode if you use the Freemidi Studio 5 driver. I didn't find that driver reliable...just my experience. Swap out the serial connections if no luck with one or the other.  Nevertheless, even if you use Freemidi using OMS, and on a separate port, collisions should not occur. You can always go in and set up virtual controllers and instruments to bifurcate data if necessary.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 17, 2014, 07:10:04 AM
Syntho.... Heads up on this....i just refreshed myself on this....I knew there was a reasonable doubt lingering. I was recalling why I myself wasn't using the aforementioned MTP setup in my last reply suggesting the Studio 5 be substituted. Take note.... Disregard my using the Studio 5  to separate OMS and Freemidi...it's only for Motu interfaces.

The Studio 5 dual serial configuration isn't like two networked MTPs really.  It sends external hardware synth data only into one port whilst the data generated by the Studio 5 itself such as smpte etc is sent into the other. So my suggestion for the MTP setup will not send all data equally into both Studio 5 ports as hoped.

Two MTPs (I do it with one MTP and two separate computers) and possibly two MidiExpresses (likewise with one old MidiExpress and two separate computers) will do this, which is my original suggestion. The serial ports are basically interchangable and carry all types of data. It doesn't translate to the Studio 5. Unfortunately.

Still the Studio 5 reigns supreme for midi timing with the Keyspan....


Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 08:06:33 AM
The problem with 2x MTPs is that one of the serial ports for networking another MTP will kill the idea of OMS + FreeMidi separately. You'll have used the additional  port for the 2nd MTP. Unless you can connect it like so:

Keyspan Modem - MTP port A - (MTP port B out) - MTP2 port A
Keyspan Printer - MTP2 port B

But I'm unsure if that would work.

I think I got OMS working OK w/FreeMidi once I pulled those Unitors out of my rig. I'll test some more and just get a Studio 5 if it's stable now.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 08:16:39 AM
By the way, which MTP version should I get if I choose that? There's a I, II, AV, and probably some other MOTU midi interfaces that'll work just fine.

I'm hooping I can get OMS/FreeMidi working together though. I'll get a Studio 5 in that case.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 17, 2014, 08:29:25 AM
II....not serial  AV. Network as you describe...it works.

The other option is to do on your one computer what i do on two. I, as a second editing option, can send all sysex to and from the Studio 5 via remote cpu using  two midi cables and one midi express. You can internally route both interfaces to do this. So you would put your XT on the Freemidi printer port and the Studio 5 on the OMS modem port. That is the solution to separating them. The two midi cables go from one pair of in/outs on the XT to one pair of in/outs on the Studio 5. It actually handles all the data, though I don't often rely on this because, as I said, the main MDD can do it all using OMS.

Signing out....will check in over the next 24 hours...
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 08:40:07 AM
I think I'm just gonna get a Studio 5. If you can get OMS and FreeMidi playing together fine, I should be able to as well. It was fine from what I remembered but I'm not in the studio at the moment.

Now I just have to worry about soldering those freakin' cables  >:(
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 17, 2014, 08:52:17 AM
the MTP 1,2 + AV all have the same networking capabilities of combining into a pair (master/slave) configuration to be 1-8,9-16 making 16 ins + outs on a single mac serial port
so does the MTP AV USB it just costs a bit more, but it still has the serial connection capability

if u have a need for 13+ midi ins + outs SIMULTANEOUSLY then it sounds like the studio 5 would be a good buy
i also am a fan of it having its own built in PSU and taking a standard 120v power lead. (personallly i hate having too many wall wart power supplies)
but keep in mind that an internal psu can also be a problem if it shorts out .. i have also seen a bunch of studio 5LX being sold "For parts" so be carefull of the condition of the unit u purchase.

i really dont understand all this stuff about the cables being crossover cables?
were u able to confirm CoachLA's experience that the card works with the driver for at least one midi mgmt package (OMS or FREEmidi) ?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 08:56:51 AM
It works completely fine in both OMS and FreeMidi. Get one of those cards, they're good. Just use the driver I posted  -afro-

I kinda want to buy another one for a backup  ;D

There are different pinouts/wirings for serial cables. Some Mac products take a standard, straight-through-wired (1-1, 2-2, 3-3 etc) wiring, but the Emagic, Opcode, and MOTU midi interfaces ALL take a different wiring. I posted it above.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 09:02:14 AM
This is the correct wiring for a Minidin 8-pin serial cable to connect all of the aforementioned midi interfaces to your serial ports:

(http://i.imgur.com/Tu3IFNI.png)

However ignore where it says Female and Male. You need a Male to Male serial cable with that same wiring for this to work.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 17, 2014, 09:06:23 AM
the pin configuration (minidin8) is not exclusive to apple/mac's there are other products that used that same configuration or similar configurations

all the cables are the same as far as i know if u have a cable that is wired differently u have been sold a cable that is not a mac serial cable
someones probably goof'd and sold u a cable that isnt a mac cable at all even tho it looks like one, if u have a cable that doesnt work.

Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 09:11:41 AM
Search around on Ebay and Google. 99% of the time you'll encounter straight-through wiring on Mac serial cables.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 17, 2014, 09:53:21 AM
Search around on Ebay and Google. 99% of the time you'll encounter straight-through wiring on Mac serial cables.

ive never had a problem of having a cable that didnt work
all of the mac cables that i own all function the same way
both the ones that were packaged with my midi interfaces when i bought them
and the ones i bought from an electronics surplus store in my area
function the same

i dont need to worry about the pinout configuration
i pick up the cable and plug it in on both ends and thats the end of it;)

if u want to call them crossover cables then i guess u can call them crossover cables
they are all normal mac serial cables for me and they all work..

like i said in my other post i think u were given a cable that is wired differently for some other implentation or use other then with geoport/serial?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeoPort

Quote
The table below shows the name and purpose of the various pins in the GeoPort-enabled serial connector when used in GeoPort, RS-422 (LocalTalk) and RS-232 modes.

 Pin #   GeoPort    RS-422    RS-232    Name
   1      SCLK       HSKo      DTR      Serial Clock (out), Handshake Out, Data Terminal Ready
   2      SCLK       HSKi      DSR      Serial Clock (in), Handshake In, Data Set Ready
   3      TxD-       TxD-      TD       Transmit data (-ve signal)
   4      GND        GND       GND      Cable ground
   5      RxD-       RxD-      RD       Receive data (-ve signal)
   6      TxD+       TxD+               Transmit data (+ve signal)
   7      TxHS       GPi       CD       Wakeup/DMA Request, General Purpose input, Carrier Detect
   8      RxD+       RxD+      (ground) Receive data (+ve signal)
   9      +5 V                          Power, 350 mA maximum
notice this table is detailing the difference between RS-422 specification and the RS-232 specification
both of which use the same pin scheme

i think that this is the source of your issues with cables.. u have been given a rs-232 cable instead of a rs-422 cable
or vice versa - i think this is kind of confusing to really get to the bottom of because its antiquated and there was alot of different
serial configurations for specific purposes.. i think that most of the normal mac serial cables did indeed have this crossover
rx -> tx and tx-> rx configuration.. maybe the straight thru cables were inteded as "Extension" cables of some sort?

http://www.omega.com/techref/das/rs-232-422-485.html

this page is talking about some differences between the two specs
saying that 422 is builtin support for daisy chaining devices (referd to here as multi-drop?)
whereas 232 does not support this and also says that pcs dont come with rs-422 ports at all

with this info i think its safe to say that the mac port is rs-422
and thats the reason why the mtp's have this networking feature



Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 17, 2014, 10:10:10 AM
It works completely fine in both OMS and FreeMidi. Get one of those cards, they're good. Just use the driver I posted  -afro-

just curious about your exact configuration that you tested..
keyspan sxpro4 + midi express XT serial interface /w OMS?
am i right?

is the unit u have? (see attach)

oops that ones the usb model
i meant to attach this:
(http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/motu_midiExpressXT_front.JPG)
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
There are crossover/null modem/TX-RX serial cables for old Mac printers and modems, and serial cables that are wired straight-through (also for Macs). The former is harder to find these days, especially in longer lengths, and the latter is what most will run into if they run a search for Mac serial cables. You just happened to get lucky that you got some old printer/modem crossovers at the Surplus store.


Keyspan - Express XT - OMS/FreeMidi. That's it  -afro-
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 17, 2014, 10:26:10 AM
i guess im a lucky s.o.b then  ;D

did u do any midi timing tests?  (accuracy of capture/playback midi)
logic? cubase?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 17, 2014, 10:27:33 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motu-Midi-Express-XT-8x8-Serial-Port-Interface-MIDI-Interface-/271546005656?pt=US_Computer_Recording_Interfaces&hash=item3f39673898


They made a USB version of this too.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 17, 2014, 10:28:59 AM
nice i wish mine used 120v power like that
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 18, 2014, 12:14:09 AM
Are you up and running, Syntho?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 18, 2014, 02:02:00 AM
Going into the studio in a few. If OMS and FreeMidi play together well I'm set. I'll report back in a bit.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 18, 2014, 02:50:15 AM
It seems to be working fine with FreeMidi in the Use OMS setting. It was those Unitors for sure. Gonna pick up a Studio 5  -afro-

There were a couple of things I'm wondering about like which speed of the serial ports to pick (.5mhz, 1mhz, 1X etc). That disappears when using FreeMidi in the OMS mode though. There's also the "Use Apple SerialDMA Driver when available" option in OMS. Other than that, I'm good.

PS: I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really need a Unisyn manual!
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 18, 2014, 03:20:10 AM
If using only OMS with a Studio 5, FAST at least 4 times up to 8 times.... see the manual for minute details. Serial DMA-YES... I would definitely have OMS run the show. If necessary set up your XT on a separate Freemidi serial port as described...simpler and you already have the XT. Networked MTPs will never be totally reliable. Maybe someone else here can add a more positive view of Freemidi. I've never been a fan of it. Always Type errors and who knows what.....
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 18, 2014, 03:21:57 AM
http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=79332
Quote
The *best* MIDI solution for *all* PCI Macs is to use MegaWolf Romulus PCI cards with FreeMIDI 1.38 in OMS Emulation mode.

just reading this thread whre this guys claiming that freemidi is superior in timing to OMS
hes talking of the megawolf pci card but i think its safe to say the keyspan is an equivelant
hes talkin about .5ms of jitter with the pci serial + freemidi combo being the best midi timing possible

ok jsut realized its the "hinton instruments" guy. i posted info frm his site before

http://web.archive.org/web/20030605153838/http://www.hinton.demon.co.uk/mac/macmidi.html
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 18, 2014, 03:32:00 AM
The person who turned me toward the MDD and the keyspan ran only DP and Freemidi and hated OMS. OMS Emulation is different than slaving to OMS. It's been so long since I monkeyed with all that. Whatever you can get working reliably is the way to go.... I think I lacked the necessary magic wand...
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 18, 2014, 04:15:34 AM
What about those mhz settings in FreeMidi? They disappear when making FreeMidi use OMS like I said though.

I don't think we're gonna need anything but a Keyspan. It seems good enough.

The Studio 5 can be 4 to 8 times faster? I'm gonna download the manual and take a look. There are a few on Ebay but I'm gonna wait a few days and see if I can score one for under $50.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 18, 2014, 04:35:01 AM
Oh I see, there's the Speed setting in OMS and it goes up to 8x. That's the same thing as the mhz setting in FreeMidi I think.

Hey coachla, aren't you shooting out some MTC with your multiple G4 setup? I'm going to have some MTC being generated from an external source into the Studio 5 on almost a daily basis. The manual says that you should always use a dual port config to ensure accurate midi timing when you've got some SMPTE going, but I'm using MTC. It probably applies to MTC too. I'm wondering what the setup would be like to get the studio 5 to shoot out MTC on its B port > modem keyspan port, and shoot out midi messages on its A port > printer keyspan port.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 18, 2014, 04:43:42 AM
If it's coming in via a midi cable then it will merge with all other midi data. Another reason to use your XT on the second serial port...bring it in that way to Logic. I'm not using any time code.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 18, 2014, 04:51:21 AM
I won't need to use the XT at all if I've got the Studio 5 though, 15 ports is enough for both of my synth racks. I wonder about that dual port config the Studio 5 manual talked about for better SMPTE timing... I'll still hang onto the XT though, I use it all the time with my ancient Windows XP laptop and various editors that aren't available on Mac. I'll see what the results are like with MTC when I get it, and if it's not too good I'll use the XT for MTC.

Hey Chris, did you know that the XT has a "PC - Mac" switch on the front of it? I had both my XP laptop and my G4 both running editors with the XT. All I have to do is press the PC/Mac switch and it switches between the parallel port and serial port instantaneously.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 18, 2014, 08:19:53 AM

Hey Chris, did you know that the XT has a "PC - Mac" switch on the front of it? I had both my XP laptop and my G4 both running editors with the XT. All I have to do is press the PC/Mac switch and it switches between the parallel port and serial port instantaneously.

i have the MTP AV (non usb) and its got a similar mac/pc button toggle on it;)
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 18, 2014, 01:05:25 PM
I tried transmitting a full bank of patches to one of my synths and it gives an error. I tinkered around with Sounddiver, disabling OMS and trying to use the modem/printer ports on the keyspan. I don't think that works as coachla has commented, but correct me if I'm wrong. Sounddiver give a message saying (paraphrasing), "OS9.x can't transfer long midi messages very well over the serial ports. Use an older Mac OS or a USB interface".

I hooked up my Unitors again and the problem disappeared.

Have you had any trouble with this coachla?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 18, 2014, 08:35:31 PM
did u try just with freemidi instead of oms?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 19, 2014, 02:52:12 AM
Sounddiver won't work with FreeMidi alone. This is actually multiple pieces of software giving the same error though. It's either the serial ports' speed, or for some reason the XT doesn't like those messages. Oddly enough, the XT works perfectly fine performing the same function on the Windows versions of the software (but it's using the parallel port in that case).

I'm going to wait until I've got a Studio 5. I can tweak the speed on it so maybe that'll help.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 21, 2014, 12:04:55 AM
Once again.... MIDI with Keyspan has to use OMS, or Freemidi. It has to emulate real ports. I would imagine you already know you Mac is the  bottleneck. A Studio 5 can transmit out to hardware at 8x easily, but the handshake or dump receives might have to be 2x or less. Don't run the XT in fast mode then. You must check the boxes "emulate modem port, or Printer port" in the Key span manager. Set up a totally blank Free MIDI setup with no active ports and 'use OMS'.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 21, 2014, 12:35:11 AM
It's either the serial ports' speed, or for some reason the XT doesn't like those messages.

this soudns familiar i rememember readign something about this
search keyword FIFO
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 21, 2014, 03:10:16 AM
After not using Unisyn for some time, I reinstalled it and an onslaught of type 2 or 3 and 11 alerts came. Finally got it normalized, seems smooth set up as I described using OMS.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 21, 2014, 07:45:38 AM
I don't believe there's a way to run the XT in Fast mode when using OMS. In FreeMidi you can select different interface speeds I'm sure, but I'm not finding that in the OMS setup or even the MOTU Clockworks setup. I only found those settings in FreeMidi itself which I'm not using for Sounddiver/OMS. From reading the Studio 5 manual, it looks like you can actually change the speed of it from OMS. Maybe OMS doesn't support those speed settings for non-Opcode interfaces.

I'm trying to remember if I ever had trouble with this on my PC... I think I did and I resolved it, but I could be wrong. Let me do some more investigation and I'll report back.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 21, 2014, 08:06:40 AM
"There is a midi transmission problem on the Printer port" - that's what OMS gives me when doing a bank dump. It looks like you can double click your interface in OMS and set up speed settings, at least with an older version of OMS and a MTP, but double clicking my XT just gives me "Midi Express XT, Printer Port".

I've got to get that damn Studio 5 soon. The parallel port on the XT works fine when xferring banks. I bet the Studio 5 will resolve all of this.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 21, 2014, 11:24:00 PM
It's different with OMS and Freemidi.

With Motu gear speed settings in Freemidi tell Freemidi to comply but not the interface. Likewise in OMS. One has to physically through menus set the interface speed independently if that option is there. The two have to agree.

In the case of the Studio 5, it's like you said, as there is no manual switch on the interface itself as with the Studio 4. I wonder if the OMS menus are actually regulating both ends of the Studio 5's communication. But as you refer to changing the MTP's speed,  that only changes OMS's end. You still have to physically  change the MTP from the MTP itself in the global hardware settings.

Very different...Motu interfaces that I've had cannot change speed modes remotely. So your XT is like my older MidiExpress. There is no way to choose fast mode on the XT itself. Then you have to set Freemidi to 1X, otherwise major communication problems, if any communication at all... Technically speaking, I've heard it said that, actually, the Studio 5 is always in fast mode.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 22, 2014, 03:12:18 AM
my brain is hurting trying to remember but i think the information or clue to the info u need is documented re: the megawolf cards and having to run some software to change the speed rate or something ugh

http://web.archive.org/web/20030707123756/http://www.hinton.demon.co.uk/mac/fm_setup.html
try here

nah thats not it. something i read - its really vague because i dint actually read it.. lol
but it was about installing an extension or something to do with the fifo speed of the pci serial ports
ughsorry i cant remember
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 22, 2014, 03:15:19 AM
http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/there-midi-transmission-problem-printer-port/
http://www.proaudiosupport.com/a33800/midi-transmission-problem-printer.html

this page referes to the possibility of a physical problem (with your wires)

quick googlesearch also returns this page:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar00/articles/miditime.htm
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 22, 2014, 10:19:50 PM
http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/sysex480
did u ever try this thijng syntho?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 22, 2014, 10:27:15 PM
That's really of no use since this is probably a hardware-related thing. I'll try again when my Studio 5 gets here.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 23, 2014, 05:48:57 AM
That's really of no use since this is probably a hardware-related thing. I'll try again when my Studio 5 gets here.

i take it thats a no;)
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 23, 2014, 03:05:45 PM
OK, good news. The KeySpan is completely fine, it's the Express XT that's giving issues. You can't double click on it and change the speed in OMS, and FreeMidi/Clockworks has an option to change it but it never saves the configuration for some reason.

I just hooked up my Unitor via serial and it's transferring completely fine. I imagine the Studio 5 will do the same, it's being delivered tomorrow.

The Express XT happens to work completely fine with the parallel port, but its serial ports seem to have trouble... I guess those things were programmed more with parallel ports in mind than serial. I'll still hang onto it for a backup.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 23, 2014, 03:15:59 PM
OK, good news. The KeySpan is completely fine, it's the Express XT that's giving issues. You can't double click on it and change the speed in OMS, and FreeMidi/Clockworks has an option to change it but it never saves the configuration for some reason.

I just hooked up my Unitor via serial and it's transferring completely fine. I imagine the Studio 5 will do the same, it's being delivered tomorrow.

The Express XT happens to work completely fine with the parallel port, but its serial ports seem to have trouble... I guess those things were programmed more with parallel ports in mind than serial. I'll still hang onto it for a backup.

maybe its damaged..?
or doesnt support this speed that u require for the sysex bank dump
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 24, 2014, 02:56:48 PM
VERDICT:

The studio 5 rules  -afro-
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 24, 2014, 05:05:45 PM
VERDICT:

The studio 5 rules  -afro-

damn u got it already? thats fast.
yeah i like my opcode 128x so far..
i kind of think for midi opcode knows best considering they wrote oms.
and everything requires oms.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 24, 2014, 08:59:18 PM
I'm running a dual port setup. The manual says that if you need more 'midi throughput' to use a dual port configuration but it doesn't explain how it does this. It does say that it distributes midi information 'equitably' on both ports, whatever they mean by that. OMS shows that it's connected to both the modem and printer ports (it has a / indicating it) but I don't see an area where you can actually assign different midi inputs/outputs to the A and B serial ports. Maybe the Studio 5 utilizes both of these automatically or something?

The manual also states that any timecode the Studio 5 generates is sent on the B port, while midi information is sent on the A port. It says generates though, so I'm not sure if that includes incoming MTC.

If this were 1997 all I'd have to do is make a phone call to figure this out  ;D
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on July 24, 2014, 09:03:48 PM
yea sure or if gibson guitars didnt kill opcode  :o
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 25, 2014, 06:14:52 AM
Syntho... Glad to hear the news! No you can't like with the MTP console and Motu gear. But it's so robust, there isn't any need to. All incoming midi is through the A port. Are you receiving SMPTE IN or MTC over midi cable? Run it full throttle on one port and see if it handles that.

Get another if you can....You can never have too many BLB's (Blinking Light Boxes)!
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on July 25, 2014, 12:58:15 PM
I'm going to have incoming MTC for sure. The generated/converted audio SMPTE to MTC I'm sure would be sent on the B port, but plain MTC itself from a midi cable I'm not sure about. It says it distributes the information 'equitably' on both ports, but also that the midi information is sent on the A port. Almost contradicting info... maybe it means it SENDS information to the Studio 5 on both ports, but that the incoming stuff is always on the A port (besides SMPTE)?

I need to test this with a Beige G3 or lower with actual modem/printer ports and Logic 4 with a cabled physical input object. I'll have a 9600 someday so I guess I'll test when that time comes.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: coachla on July 26, 2014, 12:39:38 AM
If it's not generated by the Studio 5 data comes in via the A port, however the manual does not specify the distribution of the outgoing messages which if divided between the serial ports would significantly reduce traffic, given that your incoming MTC as well as sysex receives are added to the A port's overall data flow. Let us know if you compare the configurations with differing results please.

Logic 4 even with a keyspan and OMS has discreet inputs. No problems with Logic 4 and that Sum-input-only phenomena on my MDD. But you're right, because OMS preferences can only allocate to the first 8 M ports on the physical input object, you can't test it on the MDD. Without OMS means using MTP mode which may not be as efficient to compare accurately, if in fact you can actually get Logic 4 communication preferences to address an MTP on multiple ports. A big question mark on that one....
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on September 16, 2014, 08:38:03 AM
Hey Coachla, I just did some testing. I don't remember all that was said but here's my findings on a 9600 with an old version of Logic using a Studio 5:

When using OMS, you're stuck with using nothing but the Sum part of the physical input object. In order for me to get the individual ports working, I have to disable OMS and click 'Modem' and/or 'Printer' in the Logic Communication preference screen. The Sum still works then, and as soon as I cable an individual port to something else, that port is taken off of the sum and is only coming through its actual port.

I think another step I had to do to get that working was to go into OMS and the Studio 5 setup screen and set up the 'generic midi interface' settings. Haven't tried without it but that's what I found.

I was hoping that somehow I could have OMS active and use the Sum, but also be able to break the connection for individual ports when I need to. That doesn't seem to work with OMS enabled unless there's a step I'm missing.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on September 21, 2014, 09:59:02 AM
keyspan card still working great?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on September 21, 2014, 11:23:32 AM
Of course.

I need coachla to come back and fill me in on the issue with the physical object...
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on December 10, 2014, 08:33:48 PM
just a note to say that ive updated the original post in this thread to include the manual for the keyspan sx pro in pdf format 8) 8)
the manual makes reference to mac os x 10.1 so it is probably from the time that this was the current mac os x version

im also adding the "keyspan manager" which is to be added to the system folder (not sure if its compressed or what?)
theres a good chance this file is screwed from being uploaded improperly.. syntho did u have the sx pro manager system folder extension for the keyspan card?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on December 10, 2014, 11:27:57 PM
I posted the driver on the last page, it's there. KeyspanSXProV20.sit.bin
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on December 10, 2014, 11:29:43 PM
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/4633/keyspan-sx-pro
What's New
Version 2.0 adds the following:
    Fixes issue with sleep on certain Macs
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on December 10, 2014, 11:37:22 PM
http://www.cnet.com/news/keyspan-sx-pro-software-update-is-available/

http://web.archive.org/web/20060102181013/http://www.keyspan.com/products/sxpro/downloads/

this seems to lead back to the same file

ok this definately has the manager!!!
it has options for editing + fine tuning the speed of the fifo chip
and supports multiple cards aswell!!

options for:
card
port #
port name
recive fifo [8,16,56,60]
default buffer size
TX acknowledge
double baud rate
emulate printer port
epson support
and some kind of stats  + test button
with a small feedback window
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: DaCat on February 22, 2015, 08:34:17 PM
Does anyone know of any serial cards either PCI or USB that work in both OS9 & OSX for MIDI? I saw that Keyspan announced a driver for OSX but my understanding is it doesn't handle MIDI, I'm wondering if any of the USB ones do.

The other workaround I'm wondering, say if using an Opcode Studio 5LX, could one use two Macs, one in OS9 & the other in OSX and either using pass thru or synchronizing both computers, run the MIDI from the OSX computer while the OS9 one handles routing & maybe static librarian preset changes?

My basic setup is a G4 Quicksilver DP running Opcode SVP & Galaxy using a MOTU 2408MK3, while I want to experiment with MOTU DP 5 in Leopard on my 2008 MBP, and possibly at other times the MBP will be in Mavericks using current software.

The Studio 5LX seems ideal for running MIDI but then there's the challenge when working from the laptop in some relatively current OS.

Would a practical solution be a modern USB MIDI interface that would also work in OS9 and with Opcode SVP? My head is spinning a bit following this subject in several forums, maybe there's issues for SVP & Galaxy using current USB interfaces? I also notice Opcode had some MIDIport USB interfaces likely for USB 1 so would this work in modern Macs? Considering extension/driver issues it might be too much to expect a MIDI interface that could function across OS9 to Mavericks.

The snail workaround is simply re-patch all the MIDI cables with two dedicated interfaces while I suppose one could rig up a complex matrix to get around this but too many boxes with in/outs might start lagging. I must be getting lazy because I only have about a half dozen MIDI pieces at present.

Seeing that there's some success with the Keyspan in the MDD gives me reassurance this would be good for my Quicksilver, I'm thinking of upgrading to the MDD but have seen other Opcode users claim older computers are more stable, while I went with the Quicksilver thinking it was closer to the G3s, I also have my original G4 Yikes! that is essentially a G3 with G4 processor so that could be an alternative if there's any stability issues. They were referring to Vision/SVP re stability so maybe that's not an issue with MOTU or Pro Tools setups, but I did some basic cassette transfers into SVP on this Quicksilver & everything seemed to function OK.

My "fetish" area is seeing how maxed out a G4 could go running Opcode SVP, I currently use a Seritek PCI E-SATA card and it screams with an external SATA drive, also allows quick reboots to OSX partitions for using Leopard for Internet downloads, etc..

I also wonder if newer USB interfaces have better timing than serial versions? I don't need a lot of MIDI in/outs at present but could use for future expansion.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on August 22, 2015, 09:21:19 AM
anyone have one of these for sale.. they were on ebay for awhile but the supply seems to have dried up
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on August 23, 2015, 06:24:58 PM
I have only one copy. I don't have an actual use for it, but I think I need to hang onto it just in case. It's sitting in my broken down MDD.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: supernova777 on August 23, 2015, 08:19:22 PM
i ended up buying a Grapper+ SCSI/Serial card  (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2694.msg16297#msg16297)from OrangeMicro for 12$ on ebay - its on its way to diehards place now :) lol

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2694.0;attach=2817;image)

hope it works as well as a keyspan or a megawolf

with this card ill be able to connect both a sampler via SCSI db-25 + my motu or opcode midi interfaces
kinda sucks that on previous macs these scsi + serial ports came built in!!!! 
its wierd because it says it requires system 7.5 but shows a pic of a g3 b+W on the box
which cant run anything lower then 8.5.1 or 8.6
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Enabler on September 23, 2015, 07:30:25 AM
Once these drivers are installed do the built-in MIDI drivers in Logic see the serial port?
Meaning no need for OMS or FreeMIDI or MIDI Manager?

Can anyone confirm?
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syntho on December 28, 2015, 11:21:44 PM
Once these drivers are installed do the built-in MIDI drivers in Logic see the serial port?
Meaning no need for OMS or FreeMIDI or MIDI Manager?

Can anyone confirm?

IIRC, you can use either. I don't have a G4 to test at the moment, mine went kaput.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KeySpan-Sx-Pro-SXPRO-A2-4-Port-Serial-PCI-Card-Mac-G4-PCI-PowerMac-Power-Mac-/161931328251?hash=item25b3dbfafb:g:NUEAAOSw5IJWgXgB

I'm glad I bought mine when I did  -afro-
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Enabler on May 06, 2016, 12:29:56 AM
Just wanted to chime back in on these keyspan SX Pro cards and Logic.
I finally got around and purchased one on Ebay to test with Logic Platninum.

The Bad news is that Logic's built in MIDI drivers do NOT work with these cards
I tested both Logic 3.7.2 & 4.8.1 using an Opcode Studio 4 Midi interface and a generic 1x1
Serial Interface and in both test Logic would not see the interfaces and reported errors.

There may be a work around using Logic in OMS mode but I like to avoid that all together

If anyone has any suggestions let me know
BTW Logic works perfectly with the Stealth Serial Port
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: teroyk on June 05, 2016, 09:17:55 AM
Have anybody make Keyspan to work with OMS without MOTU hardware? I tested it with Midiman MacMan (its simple serial to Midi I/O) and it worked with Freemidi, but no with OMS Setup. Freemidi 1.38 has OMS emulation, but it's not help me because my another PCI-sound card has only OMS drivers and I think that I cannot use OMS-drivers with Freemidi even if put OMS emulation on..or is there someway use both together and route between them?

Some infromations I find about Freemidi version from Motus website from 2000:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000304004840/http://www1.motu.com/english/download/autodown/action.lasso?-database=dldb&-layout=main&-response=searchresults.html&-op=eq&product=FreeMIDI&&-maxRecords=all&-sortfield=version&-sortorder=descending&-search

Has anybody that fm14_cw106.sit.hqx-file? Page says "We recommend downloading these files if you have a serial adapter like the Megawolf, Keyspan, Stealth or Griffin Technology card."
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Metrophage on June 05, 2016, 10:38:06 AM
Here is ClockWorks 1.0.7, which should be the same idea, and should still work with FreeMIDI 1.4.x. I have never used the MOTU MIDI drivers, but I should try them sometime.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: macStuff on December 16, 2017, 01:25:43 PM
I'll probably grab a Keyspan, I can't find a G4port or Stealth. I see the extensions were posted so I hope that's all I need to get it working.

I have an older MOTU Midi Express XT that would be nice to get up and running. As long as it's compatible with FreeMidi I'm good.

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=3623.0
http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php?topic=3403.0
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syn-Fi on October 10, 2018, 02:23:53 AM
OS9 drivers

The attached driver, right at the top of this thread did not work for me. However, i found v2.0 and that worked and it has an installer as opposed to drag/drop to system.

The driver at the top stated i had a newer card

No drivers/extensions req'd for osx.


Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: Syn-Fi on June 01, 2019, 05:02:24 AM
hi,
i have the Sxpro card but my modem emulation tick box, in the control panel for the sxpro is always hashed out. 

Also with my Studio 5LX it only works with a relative short din cable.    It is not even detected by a cable of 3M.
Title: Re: keyspan sx serial cards
Post by: GaryN on June 01, 2019, 03:26:57 PM
The tick box grayed out usually means either you have Appletalk on, or you have a modem card installed and active by being selected in the TCP/IP panel or similar.

As for the cable, your 3M cable is probably NOT a Mac "crossover" wiring but rather a "straight-thru". Crossover cables are wired with the Tx and Rx lines "crossed over" to allow two-way communication. The problem with all of these cables is for reasons known ONLY to the manufacturers, NONE of them has ever though it necessary to mark the damn things in any way to indicate which type they are. Go figure.

Syntho spelled it out HERE: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2656.msg15948.html#msg15948