Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Hardware => Video Cards, Monitors & Displays => Topic started by: supernova777 on January 22, 2014, 04:33:28 AM
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ok i feel really really stupid right about now
i think i just ruined my quicksilver 867mhz mac ;(
by trying to cut traces instead of taping pins on the 9600 XT and starting up my QS with it in the 4x agp slot..
the mac wont start up now.. and ive removed the card and insert the old card.. (which is a geforce2 mx)
wow man..... the computer was working fine.. and i ruined it just to try to get a measly video speed upgrade
i think i am done with trying to upgrade things;(
wowwww unbelievable
maybe ill unplug it and see if itll boot up ..
its possible it could be a bad PSU?
maybe the PSU died just now?
i just hope i didnt ruin the logic board;(
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yep pretty sure i just ruined my quicksilver...
do yourself a favour and dont try to put a 8x agp in a 4x agp slot
i really wish i didnt read that these posts saying the 9600 XT was totally compatible and working great for over a year blah blah blah
my quicksilver is ready for the scrap heap now..
and i had just installed the g4port.. and gotten a new 80gb sata drive for it
wow. i just cant believe this.. i would never have tried to do that if i knew there was chance of this happening.
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ok thinking about this rationally.. it has been acting strange when turning it on, like the power button would 'flutter'
and then stumble before comijng on 100% the last few days.. so i think it may be the power supply. i just was about to swap it for a b&w g3 psu but its not the same pinout + its incompatible:S
so yes to be cleear. i press the power button. it lights p..
i hear the fan start to spin inside.. and then it stops..
and nothing comes on..
thats it.
no bong. no nothing.
i sure hope its just the psu and not the agp port/motherboard thats broken
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First calm down!
My DA had made me episodes of what you feel now and it survived all.
First Reset PRAM
If nothing, take the battery off the mac and reset pram again
If nothing unplug the power supply from the AC
Press power on button and hear if sound a electric discharge.
Let the mac unplugged with the PSU 20-24 cable ATX off the motherboardout at least 4-24 hours to discharge.
Put the 20 conector on again, the battery and the AC.
Press button and the mac should be back in.
I think you should have and old graphic card to test.
Later, look if the new latest powerfull card had the 3 and 11 gold fingers covered correctly and try again.
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Try with the G3 B&W pci. Maybe just the AGP conector is damaged, but I dont think so.
Mac rejects new hardware sometimes.
Tomorrow, try first only with the rage or the graphic from the G3 and later with the new one and take the rest of the PCIs out (SATA, SCSI included). When it works (hopefully) you will add the rest of the pci.
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ok i took the battery out + left it unplugged
i feel really shitty about this... :(
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in the event that it is determined to be the PSU..
ive jus found this!
http://atxg4.com/
http://atxg4.com/order.html
this guy makes adapters for ATX PC PSU's to convert to G4 pinout!!!
awesome nondestructive solution!
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You think is the PSU as I thougt when I tried to put AGPx8 before
http://themacelite.wikidot.com/pins-3-and-11 (http://themacelite.wikidot.com/pins-3-and-11)
You covered them?
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no i tried to cut the traces..
and i put the card in.. and tried to start it up and it did what its doing now..
its starting up and then turning itself off
before the bong
it doesnt even power on fully
thats why i think it could be the psu
because even if it was the logic board it should at least stay on?
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...
thats why i think it could be the psu
because even if it was the logic board it should at least stay on?
Take all pci cards out (AGP included) and try with the one from the B&W
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ive just tried again and its definately dead.. i took everything out and it does the same thing..
fan starts to spin and then it turns istelf off
i had the battery out for like 30min to 1 hr and unplugged
its toast man:(
i feel horrible that i did this
i was just about to realy use this thing!!!!!! waste of time + money .bah
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now that i think of it.. i think the power supply was failing.. and its just failed..
it was having some trouble turning on..
I think i also saw a spark on the back when i plugged in the cable the last time.. connecting the cable to the psu..
i hope its jus the power supply....
i didnt do any trauma to the logic board other then to insert the 9600 XT 8x AGP card..
perhaps this card does work and its just a fluke that the psu died at this time?
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http://resale.headgap.com/g4powersupply/
omg these guys are charging 219$ for a psu..
wow.
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i swapped batteries with my mdd mobo..
no change..
tried a different power cable..
no change
no memory or cards in.. wont power up
wont error
wont bong
wont do jack squat
;/
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I will try to explain it better...
Every time you change ANYTHING on a mac (more/less ram, graphics card, etc) is good to press P+R+Apple+Alt until it bongs for at least 4 times the cycle. That is called reset parameter ram or reset PRAM.
1 Reset Pram
If it dont bong or the battery is empty, or the ram had broke or a card had broken or the motherboard.
2 Empty the mac (no pcis and let 1 or 2 memories be there) and try with another know working card (the one from the B&W). It should work.
3 If still no bong, unplug the computer from the outlet, the motherboard from the PSU and the battery (good momment to test the battery with a multimeter) and let the mac unplugged one day.
4 Still no bong? Swap the memories you left behind in step 2 with the ones in the G4.
5 Tripple check the cables from the PSU, maybe some cable is naked (no plastic around) and it make a short-circuit, turning down the Mac
6 Still no bong? Install a MacOs9/MacOsX in a harddrive with VNC (to make headless) with the G3 (preferable a ATA disk) and swap that drive in the G4.
Explanation. Sometimes PRAM corrupts itself when swapping parts. This thing happened to me 3-4 times before, when installing usb nec cards, sonnet tempo, ram and "pc supposed to work"graphics card. Once it broke my Ata33 channel, and other my Ata66 channel. And other times making the "I wanna bong but I turn off before" other times. After some tears and the G4 feeling sad unplugged it repairs itself alone (?)
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at this point in time i think it was caused by a cheap power supply causing a surge or shock
ive just tested this with a win98 pIII box and it made this tiny shock/sound when u connect the power
i saw this happen a few times when plugging in the quicksilver lately i just didnt think anything of it.. (stupid)
anyways when i replaced the powerbar strip this shock is not happening any longer..
so i think this has damaged the psu and/or the logic boar.. hopefully not my peripherals, sound cards+ video cards +ram + g4port
i had this small light there on my desk and the light was changing in brightness alot..
and being strange -- i really think this is all caused by this faulty power bar strip... i think someone had tripped over it or stepped on it and damaged it
somehow... because ive cahnged this powerstrip now and the light is constant + Stable from this mini lamp too now
hmm maybe this is why people opt for "power conditioners" to ensure proper stream of power to equipment.
like "Furman power conditioners" etc
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http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/BAA36VPRAM/
maybe i should grab a new battery for $4 just in case that has something to do with it
i read some post earlier about a guy keeping the battery warm in his hand for baout 30min and then the battery miraculously made his g4 boot..
when he was having the same issues im having......
and theres countless articles talking about remvoing the battery and then adding it back in and presto! the mac boots..?
strange
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ah well i guess i have to look on the bright side this thing only cost me 45$ lolol :D but tbh that low price + vintageness is what makes it so cool;D what u can accomplish with something so cheap;) anyway..
cant get too upset about it...... get some new parts or new quicksilver and move on..... :D 8)
how much was a quicksilver when they were first released?
Original Price: US$2499 ;D ;D
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Given your DIY capabilities I cant recommend you to buy a PMG4DA and put the cpu there (what I would do if 100% is broken "something"). You could later mod your DA having QS parts, but just forget about it.
One can't always make it perfect every swap of a part. Nothing happens if you screw part 5 to 10 times in your whole life after 500 changes. It is something "normal", "plausible".
If you screw EVERY swap you made (as a friend I have) let this thing a I.T. guy do it for you.
With time you learn from every mistake. Never do same again. I had broke (with my rudeness) 3 Pentium 4 Heatsink holders, 2 motherboards, and 3 graphics cards in 18 years of hacking. I consider myself as "skillfull"
I have the determination that NO ONE is going to make a mod with more care, love and patience that myself, but this only after I saw the average knowledge of medium IT guys here in Spain.
Be positive, your G4 is with Steve Jobs now.
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As ProToolsLEGuy mentioned... The 3 to 4 chime rule is very important... each cycle wipes out more non-volitile RAM info. and thus clears more settings in the PRAM (Think of a G4 as a PC with multiple BIOS zones...each zap chime clears values in a zone). Some of the more significant things that are stored in PRAM are network settings, monitor settings, mouse speed, highlight color, the startup disk, and a bunch of Apple secret stuff... including information about when your computer was first powered on and how long your Mac has been in use (Apple odometer)... now remember, we said monitor settings... so as mentioned, always zap it if you are changing video cards.
As the G4 MB battery dies... the PRAM can't sustain its values... so always make sure your MB battery is running at 3.6 Volts (easy test with a Voltmeter... usually don't even have to remove it)... Corrupted values in the PRAM from a battery on its way out can also cause a list of issues.
I bought literally dozens of Pismo Powerbooks from ebay that were stone dead (won't power on at all), sellers said they had bad MBs.... I changed the internal PRAM battery, reset the back button, and the PRAM and BAM.... like brand new :) i loved that trick... was worth a lot of bucks in the day.
.
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ok ive jut been told a trick to check the powersupply
u can use a paperclip to connect the green + black section of the psu connectors to make contact and start the psu without it connected to the computer;
i will do this to see if the psu will start + stay on
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ok i have confirmed it with this trick!
THE POWER SUPPLY IS DEAD AS A DOOR NAIL!
connected greeen power on pin to a black ground. and...
exact same results! it tries to start and fails.
so theres a chance i didnt kill my mac after all!
my next question to investigate will be..
is the power supply repairable by an electrician?
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ok i have confirmed it with this trick!
THE POWER SUPPLY IS DEAD AS A DOOR NAIL!
connected greeen power on pin to a black ground. and...
exact same results! it tries to start and fails.
so theres a chance i didnt kill my mac after all!
my next question to investigate will be..
is the power supply repairable by an electrician?
Where did you find the instructions for testing a Mac PSU? I know HOW only on PC-ATX.
For sure a good old skool tech can repair, but sometimes is cheaper to ebay another because of the time it takes to. In Spain a good tech can take 40-70 euros to repair (that old psu)
On the other side, a complete recap of the PSU with good quality condenser will make the computer more stable after 11-15 years of service.
The question is : Do you need ADC? You have an ADC monitor? If you use DVI or VGA and your card is "PC-born" you can use a PC ATX PSU with the adapter-cable from ATXG4PSU you mentioned before. I am not sure about Mac cards with ADC without the "only mac" +28 volts from original PSU but for sure Diehard or Japamacs should know it.
I think that the clever solution for a PowerPC user in this decade is to prepare themself for use PC-World ATX PSU from the B&W to the QS'02 (The PSU of the MDD is another beast of non-ISO dimensions). Motherboards last longer than PSU and CPU most of the time.
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i found a russian place that repairs... they said 50$ to fix.
but... i have no guarantee how long it will last..
but if i buy one from ebay etc the same thing could happen..
these are very old computers now.. some component in psu can easily die.
the best long term solution is to create an adapter to modify pin out from this dead one..
using a atx power extension cable and cutting the connectors off of this dead psu
and fusing them with the extension to create an ATX-to-QS-Pinout PSU adapter cable
that way i can always just use a new ATX power supply
but the problem is that this will never provide the +25 volt for the firewire devices
and yes u are right most people will ask for 70-100$ to even look at repairing this
i have taken the psu out of the QS..
its a tuff decision, because i ahve another MDD dual 1ghz i can buy with keyboard + mouse
+ 2 new harddrives inside for 50$ so its almost like i have to turn my back on this old quicksilver..
which is sad;(
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http://www.instructables.com/id/Fix-a-dead-power-supply-using-a-Hair-Dryer-Reflow/
^^ this might actually work for me... im going to try it;)
i believe there has been some failure inside the psu transistor..
change in temperature might just allow it to start like it did for this man in his video
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yep no go on the hair dryer trick.. it probably needs some capacitors fixed inside.. i wonder if i could actually fix it by replacing the caps. maybe i will leave it unplugged for a few weeks to make sure its discharged and maybe one day i will get the courage to try and fix..
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The hair dryer makes 3 things: Discharge condensor. Change relays state. Resolder.
If a relay or a fuse is involved it may works sometimes.
Make yourself a ATXG4 cable or order it! Buy a thermaltake and you are back to business!
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apparently the ATXG4 guy doesnt respond to emails..
http://www.jcsenterprises.com/Japamacs_Page/Blog/EA215F16-F592-4CF7-AA8A-496D5323F6BC.html
this is making the sawtooth look more + more desirable..
perhaps with a 1.0ghz + upgraded cpu..
because of the almost identical ATX psu pinout
very easy to mod a atx psu for a sawtooth..
not quite the same for a QS..
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(http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/atx_sawtooth.PNG)
(http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/atx_GigabitDA.PNG)
(http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/atx_quicksilver.PNG)
(http://www.macos9lives.com/downloads/_img/atx_mdd.PNG)
in case the ATXG4 website goes down heres the pinouts for future generations;)
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http://www.applefritter.com/node/23857
this guy did a good job of fixing his mdd..
i could always do something like this but looks like alot of work;) heheeh
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It is unknow if firewire works without the original PSU. Some says it needs +28 volts. If you still need firewire (and have a pci slot free) you can buy a texas instrument pci firewire interface on ebay. http://www.ebay.es/itm/3892D122-4-PORT-FIREWIRE-PCI-CARD-1394-PCI-/360829715364?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_InterfaceCards&hash=item54032083a4 (http://www.ebay.es/itm/3892D122-4-PORT-FIREWIRE-PCI-CARD-1394-PCI-/360829715364?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_InterfaceCards&hash=item54032083a4)
Never buy a firewire card with via-chipset. Some agere should work, but for sure go on texas instrument chipset. You can't go wrong
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The hair dryer makes 3 things: Discharge condensor. Change relays state. Resolder.
If a relay or a fuse is involved it may works sometimes.
Make yourself a ATXG4 cable or order it! Buy a thermaltake and you are back to business!
How the hell does a haidryer discharge a capacitor? In all my years working with electronics, i have never heard of something like this. Also, how does heat influence the tiny relays?
Relays are more heat resilient than you might think, and capacitors don't discharge into heated air unless there is 90%+ humidity. And not even then.
Resolder? Not a friggin' chance. It heats up the printed circuit board, and you may get a connection because of the heat induced dilation in a circuit that otherwise has desoldering points.
The hair dryer doesn't have enough heating power to resolder. My wife has a 1500W Zepter hair dryer. It burns like a mofo when close to the skin at maximum power. That bad boy is not even close to heating the solder to its melting temperature even when i keep it lose to the circuit for more than 5 minutes.
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Hey Graveyard... the whole hair dryer thing is some hilarious shit... I love it... I Remember using that trick to temporarily wake up dead cubes.. found it below, read these postings
http://www.cubeowner.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13846
Of course, you are right, any real "re-flowing" or "re-balling" needs an expensive piece of precision soldering station (not a frickin hair dryer); I also remember rip-off guys on ebay charging $49 to $89 to "Fix" HP dv2000, dv6000, and dv9000 notebooks that had the faulty vNidia GPUs that would melt off the motherboard... they used a high heat hair dryer and some tinfoil... would fix the thing for about 3 weeks....lol.
Obviously, if a hair dryer fixes something it is temporary... and eventually a capacitor needs to be changed or a component replaced or professionally reflowed... read the cube thing... it is so funny, some people can get years out of the same power supply if they don't unplug it... go figure that one out :o
Some guy said it even works on a G5, but I never tried that one... as far as I am concerned, G5s re all boat anchors, when they break it's scrap time... definitely the worst engineering to come out of Apple... high system failure rates on both liquid cooled and non-liquid cooled models.
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(http://www.memory4less.com/images/products/img0922/614-0157-lg.jpg)
damn this stupid lil box:D
i think this might actually be rare but standard size psu used by other "BTO" or custom computers (like dell, hp etc)
i saw somewhere a link to one by "Delta Electronics" thta is same 344watts + pinout (22+4) perhaps i should contact the psu companies to see if somewhere someone still manufactures psu's of this nature.. i wouldnt mind buying a new psu if i knew it was NEW
and likely to last another 10 years!
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You say its broken your PSU? Open it an see it!
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yes i have it open.. i cant see any caps that are burnt out but its quite crowded + obscured inside
im pretty sure it is broken tho..
it should stay running doing this green/black wire paperclip jumpstart trick.
i guess ill have to try another ACBEL psu and see what it does
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http://web.archive.org/web/20090104070804/http://homepage.mac.com/josephk/G4_mod.html
im gettin a crazy idea here boys + Girls...
should i take the 867mhz quicksilver cpu
and throw it in my g4 450mhz sawtooth?
this guy did it! hes got 2mb cache +
(http://web.archive.org/web/20031205231002/http://homepage.mac.com/josephk/G4pics/system_profiler.jpg)
(http://web.archive.org/web/20040927131011/http://homepage.mac.com/josephk/G4pics/G4_case.jpg)
shame its osx 10.1 doesnt show the mhz etc
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Quicksilvers have a second +28V line on pin #9, this pin is not used
on Gig-E or DA G4s. Otherwise the PSUs are pretty much the same, 338 W
vs 344 W in the QS. If you have a Gig-E or Digital Audio PSU and you
want to use it in the Quicksilver you could split the +28V from pin
#22 and splice it into pin #9. The QS also has a 4-pin connector that
the DA doesn't so you might need to splice that piece from the old PSU.
http://osdir.com/ml/g3-5-list/2009-11/msg00625.html
so it seems its not so hard a task to get a DA/Gigabit PSU to power a QS
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peecee works for me ;D i'm running a QS 733 overclocked to 933 with a pc ATX supply here. i used the +5vSB for pin 22, +12 for pin 9, changed pin 8 to +3.3, changed pin 19 to GND, and so far no problems. i used an ATX extender and modified the wires in the extender so that any standard ATX supply could be plugged in without worring about wires and such. watch out, on the seperate 4 pin +12v feed connector, it's backwards from the ATX supply (swap yellow and black) at the logic board end. compare with the original supply to double check!
i gather from reading boards that external power firewire devices would not work, and using an ADC monitor would not work. i have neither, so can't comment. i'm using a flashed 9800, 1.5gb ram, sata pci card, and a couple of 500gb drives, and have not had a single problem. best of luck.
http://forums.applecentral.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/475402/G4_to_ATX_conversion
seems like ill have to go ahead with this idea.. !
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well i just spent the last hour or so making sure i had the wires wired correctly....
and i did the modification in the same way that japamac did on his jcsentperprises site -- in that i used an atx extender -- cut off the last 2 pins to make it 22 pin instead of 24
pin so the male end would fit into the female connector on the QS mobo... other side just inserted 20pin into 24pin (from the atx -> adapter).. and then reversed the polarity on the pc 4pin double 12v+dbl ground.. connected it... and. after all that..
it does the exact same thing as it does with the QS power supply in it..
soooooooooo.. im not sure wtf is up.
whether its the PSU or the logic board.. or both..
the cpu is prob ok still..
man what a piss off!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
total computer loss..
because i was up late messing around with a video card upgrade to a nonsupported card
something i didnt even neeed. the computer was working great...
sigh
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there is a single red light blink on the motherboard i just noticed when it attempts to power up.. i wonder if that means something particular? like a beep code? but it doesnt make any beeps
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-G4-Logic-Board-661-2503-820-1276-A-/370989772548?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5660b6af04
is this my only recourse? to buy a new logic board?
i realy wish there was some info to figure out what is really wrong with the board and why it cant start up..
i hate not knowing how or why it wont boot up anymore..
and that i caused this... whatever happened.. and now its simply non functional
i dotn get it there was no trauma to the motherboard.. the agp card was a non-ADC card.. there was no contact made to the adc power prong that is in front of the slot towards the plate
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Can you take some good quality photos of the motherboard? Do you see any damaged components? If i was closer to you, maybe i could have helped you revive it.
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it doesnt have anything visually wrong with it.. it looks pristine man!!
i think it must have been either the 8x AGP card i tried to cut the traces on.. i didnt do it properly
i have to research what pin 3+ 11 do exactly to understand how this rendered the mobo unable to power up..
if i hadnt of put this 8x AGP card in the QS would still work for sure.. im positive of this. it was working fine..
i wish i could figure it out tho. its always good energy to be able to fix something broken!
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http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1339377 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1339377)
How you dare to call a Troll to Intell, one of the more wise minds in MacRumors... >:( ;D
If you are on GENERAL PowerPC (OS9-X) you should visit it more frequently. He and our also member Erik Youngren are the more experienced users there... You can trust them as we all trust MacTron or DieHard. Kinda faith in everything they say... As with Zen from PowerPCLiberation, Dan from PowerPCLuddite, Nameci, Gavin, Japamac, ...
Try a scotch tape mod over your previous cut traces mod. I am with Intell. It is almost impossible to break an G4... At least with a graphic card from a G5 even badly modded.
I tried the cut traces method and the card sometimes gives white image and other times not. Sometimes it bongs and sometimes not. I think it can corrupt the PRAM, but nothing else. My 9650 is going to the scotch tape mod OVER the badly cutted traces for the third atempt.
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From http://themacelite.wikidot.com/pins-3-and-11 (http://themacelite.wikidot.com/pins-3-and-11)
The second half of the story: So, Apple got caught with their pants down when the AGP 8x spec came out. Suddenley, the pins they had choosen to be the "Power On" switch (3 & 11) got assigned to AGP 8x. Suddenly, all G4's were relegated to AGP 4x cards forever since an 8x card grounded those pins. Anyhow, the net effect is that an 8x card in a pre-G5 Mac causes the Mac to seem dead. This tells you: "Time to disable your pins."
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i will NOT be trying to fix that machine in any other way other then to replace the cpu
the motherboard has been replaced dont u understand..
and it still does the same thing
the only constant is the cpu module
which is FRIED
it wont power up..
u press power the cpu fan starts up and then stops a moment later because the cpu is faulty now
diehard sent me a brand new quicksilver motherboard.. NEW.never used.. replacement board.
i installed this board.. trust me the cpu module was damaged somehow by me using a g5 agp video card in the machine
some type of electrical short has ocurred.. the cpu module is now damaged... perhaps not 100% damaged but 1% damaged
is enough to stop it from booting and the same electrical short has happened to many other people with mystery problems on powerpc forums - the fix : replace the cpu module NOT the motherboard
i had bought this qs 867mhz second hand
it was working fine before i fried it
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench2/2454399
this is the gb benchmarking of it..
april 2014. the last time it booted:D
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http://web.archive.org/web/20071019182758/http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~t-imai/g4de1.html
after looking at this page
is it possible that what i did.. by incorrectly cutting the traces on the agp 8x g5 video card
has somehow done damage to a resistor on the 867mhz cpu module?
causing it to not boot because its not set to the right clock speed anymore?
when diehard sent me this new motherboard it booted up just a few times
after i replaced the motherboard... but then it returned to the state of not powering up
when i push power the fan spins on the cpu and then something cuases the bootup to halt
and power the machine off..
is this the same result that would happen from a cpu that was overclocked too far?
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just to recap this thread,
it was determined that the cpu itself was somehow damaged by inserting this video card
i threw out the video card to avoid any further problems so i have no idea if the card was damaged aswell.. im guessing it would have been... but its possible it wasnt.
anyway i replaced teh motherboard+ the machine still never started up again
one day i would like to get a replacement cpu to see this quicksilver live again..
but i will wait untill the day that i get my hands on a cpu upgrade for the other quicksilver i have...
then i can put the 933 into this one and see if it lives again.. although its tempting to pull it out to test it
i decided not to mess with it... :D as i obviously have bad luck and should keep my hands off messing aroujnd with hardware unless 100% necessary lol
ok it seems i already made similar comments about this:D lol
oops
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Just fix that thing already :)
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id like to.. but i need a cpu card for it.
if i could find a dual 1ghz that would be the all around best solution really.
but its still missing the cdrom cage aswell