Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Mac OS 9, Hacks & Upgrades => Topic started by: Syntho on September 02, 2014, 03:04:07 PM
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I upgraded my machine with a Sonnet CPU and the extension it installed is the very first one that's loaded. That's because they put a space in front of _Sonnet to get it to load first (replace the underscore with a space and you'll see what I mean). Extensions load in alphabetical order.
I also have a MOTU driver inside a folder called MOTU in the extensions folder. The driver itself is called "PCI - 324 Driver" with no space in front of it. However, even so, it loads in 1st place anyway. I don't see how this can be loading first because it starts with a P.
How can I get the PCI - 324 extension to load after the Sonnet extension? There's something forcing it to load first.
I think since the PCI MOTU driver is loading first that it's not getting that Sonnet CPU goodness and it's causing freezing.
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I don't know much about programming but it's looking like I'm going to have to hack this driver, or the Sonnet driver manually. I was told that in the resource fork of the driver they used a non-printable character to get it to load first.
I don't know anything about hacking or programming but I've used ResEdit and Hex editors before. I think I'd rather edit the Sonnet extension and input non-printable characters on it to get that one to load first instead of messing with the PCI 324 driver.
Anyone know how to do this?
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not i, but it sounds like u are movin in the right direction
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If anyone is curious, here are the drivers. I don't know if you'll experience what I'm experiencing, but I get freezing as soon as both drivers are loaded, so be careful.
I think we've got a better chance of fooling with the Sonnet driver and adding something to that one to get it to load first rather than fooling with the PCI 324 driver.
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Moving the MOTU driver to the System Folder, renaming it, and creating an alias and dropping that into the Extensions folder all don't work. Now that I think of it, the driver isn't even showing up in the Extensions Manager.
Don't tell me I've got to buy another CPU upgrade....
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If anyone is curious, here are the drivers. I don't know if you'll experience what I'm experiencing, but I get freezing as soon as both drivers are loaded, so be careful.
I think we've got a better chance of fooling with the Sonnet driver and adding something to that one to get it to load first rather than fooling with the PCI 324 driver.
someone would have to have both the same cpu upgrade as u and the motu pci 324 card.. not to mention needing an old world mac..
which lowers the chance that someone here would be able to easily be able to replicate what u are experiencing..
maybe mactron has a motu card? i dont think ive ever heard him discuss what audio io he uses
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Moving the MOTU driver to the System Folder, renaming it, and creating an alias and dropping that into the Extensions folder all don't work. Now that I think of it, the driver isn't even showing up in the Extensions Manager.
Don't tell me I've got to buy another CPU upgrade....
why dont u just use your pro tools hardware instead of the motu card. problem solved.
maybe u need some audio interface from 1997-1998
like a korg 1212, sonorus studi/o,audiomedia III, pro tools 24 mix
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If someone would drop in those extensions they'd see them loading in order, the 324 first and then the Sonnet, you don't have to have the hardware.
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id try posting on macintoshgarden, 68kmla, applefritter etc
on the topic of forcing extension load order
etc
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4SRzOV9FezgJ:glinda.680x0.com/~ulterior/68kmla/forums/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D15%26t%3D20831+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a
maybe they use the same character listed here in this thread and u can use one before that for the sonnet
i wouldnt say u are screwed.. just challenged;)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_Catcher
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2f/Conflict_catcher_screenshot.png/600px-Conflict_catcher_screenshot.png)
try this out
http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/conflict-catcher-9
https://archive.org/details/tucows_207034_Conflict_Catcher
here is an one version
https://archive.org/download/tucows_207034_Conflict_Catcher/conflictcatcher.sit
damn havent seen the name tucows in a long ass time:D
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The driver isn't a moveable/reorderable driver in Conflict Catcher, tried this hours ago.
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but as far i know, things should really load in alphabetical order.
maybe there is something what interrupts the alphabetical order? (do you use startupdoubler or stuff like that?)
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I don't.
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edit: note to self: first read, then answer.
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maybe mactron has a motu card?
No I haven't. So little to nothing chance to help.
... but there is something weird in "PCI - 324 Driver" file because technically is a Shared Library (shlb) not a INIT (that's why you can't change the loading order and why it is not showing up in the Extensions Manager) so I guess that must be something more... a control panel may be?
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How would I change it from a shared library to something else, and is it safe to do that?
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i dunno why its a big deal. just call up motu - they wrote the fucking driver they will help u
stop fumbling around in the dark and just email motu technical support
what are the file names of the extensions
cant u just follow the directions of the last thread i linked and put a bullet character on the sonnet driver extension (put a shift option 8 character in first letter of the extension for the sonnet )
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MOTU said they can't help me.
So how'd you go about changing it Mactron? Any advice is appreciated.
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have u tried finding an earlier version of the pci-324 driver?
whats the Date + info + file name
give us someting to go on here
dont buy another cpu..
thats just stupid
if anything just USE A DIFFERENT AUDIO INTERFACE IN THE 9600.
if u want an easy fix, why dont u just use your pro tools hardware in teh 9600? i thought thats why u got a 9600 to begin with
to have more pci slots for tdm?
have u checked the ascii lookup table?
why dont u just copy the resource fork from the sonnet to the pci-324
and the pci-324 to the sonnet?
literally cut + paste all the hex code from the resource forks and switch em
back em up first tho obviously
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i dont think you can convert a library to an init so easily, at least not without disassembling and recompiling.
it might be possible to convert libraries to shared libraries somehow, but system extensions such as init, app, thng, comd, ndrv, scri are all deeply compiled stuff.
one would think that a control panel would have been the best option for such an driver, as they can do all at once: patching the system, killing traps, providing a library, running from startup only while still offering the user to change spome settings after the boot. but from what i know it is not possible to have any kind of "translation" in a cdev, which is required for audio IO, printers and the like.
say is the sonnet software really needed to use the processor card in classic OS?
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wtf does "Joy!peffpwpc" mean.. this is what the pcidriver starts with when u open it in hexedit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_Executable_Format
http://web.archive.org/web/20040202224433/http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/runtimehtml/RTArch-89.html
is the driver the one originall from http://cdn-data.motu.com/downloads/pci424/pci_os9.hqx ?
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/14619/motu-pci-324-424-audio-drivers
this one says v1.08? ok nvm i think its for osx
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i dont understand the post from the guy on the digi forum.
theres no way to use Motu audio system to run pro tools??? is there?
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Digi forum? Do you have a link?
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digidesign.. u posted the link.. he said he was using 001 + 324 in same machine.. it made sense reading the original post.. the post revealed he wasnt using both at same time rather switching between the two.....
anyway.. good luck with your problem solving
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Unfortunately, many DAW components (both hardware and software) have some difficulty when it comes to processor upgrades. Back in the day, when the company I worked for was configuring many DAW systems (all Mac based) from the Nubus architecture thru the PCI based G3s and G4s, it became very apparent that this little extra twist (a 3rd party CPU upgrade) could really play havoc when trying to get a system up and running correctly. There were combinations of CPU upgrades and interfaces that did not play well together and combinations of DAW software and CPU upgrades that did not fully function correctly.
in the end, we gave up on third party CPU upgrades for DAW systems since it started to feel like we were configuring PCs, not Macs… too much shit to remember of what worked right with what revision of what. So we told our clients to stick with unmodified Mac systems and just pay a little more if more speed was needed. Apple did a pretty good job, IMO of matching overall performance with bus archiitecture, CPU speed, and stability… Now, I am not saying we wouldn't take a piece of shit QS 733 CPU (with only 256 K Cache) and upgrade that baby with a Dual 867 QS CPU… I am just saying we avoided the 3rd party variable that would have us up till 3 am trying to figure out what was going wrong with the system.
I think the main problem is that most CPU upgrades are tested in the arena of real world statistical calculations and benchmarks… and yes, most applications worked just peachy, but when it comes to DAW software and audio interfaces (all tested on stock macs), this is a different thing all together. Some DAW software and audio interfaces rely on things that inherently original apple, and a third party CPU is like a alien unknown variable with CPU speed software introduced and a different balance of Bus vs CPU.
I am not saying it is NOT possible to have a great running DAW with a 3rd party upgrade, many have achieved this… I am just saying it requires more research than a stock system, try to get a "Known" tested configuration that works for Mac model, CPU upgrade, DAW software, and Audio interface. That is why I think many, like Mactron, went the over clocking route… it is still the original system, but just revved up a little faster, introducing a little more heat and a few other variable, but overall, the systems "looks" the same to DAW components.
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The Sonnet CPU + MOTU 324 was a needle in a haystack as far as finding info online about it. It was only after I had it in there that I discovered a post from back in 2000 on a newsgroup where some guy said that that exact combo wouldn't work due to an extension conflict.
However I also found another guy saying that he has a NewerTech CPU running a Pro Tools Mix rig on top of a 324 w/Digital Performer and it was rock solid. That's why I bought a cheap 300mhz NewerTech CPU. Not as fast as the Sonnet, but it's something at least.
Speaking of that, I also read on the Digi forum a while back that you should probably avoid almost all manufacturers altogether except for NewerTech for CPU upgrades. More people have gotten solid recording systems out of NewerTech CPUs than any from what they're saying.
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syntho i have asked u a bunch of times what u have actually fucking done to fix this
noone can help u if u arent being thorough in your approach to communicate abotu what u hav actually tried
re: gettijng the pci 324 extensiont to not load before the sonnet one
so i guess u have a few options
1) give up and stop trying to fix it and chalk it up to incokmpatible + use a different audio interface
2) start fighting hook tooth + nail exploring every possibility and actually getting someone to help u who actually knows how to hex edit a datafork, double confirm the ascii character llookup
this could be as simple as finding the one character that comes before the one used by the motu.. and changing one character
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I think I'm about to vomit
>:( >:( >:( >:(
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aww man sorry to hear that
i think u should keep this as a side technical debug challenge
and change your audio i/o for this machine to the pro tools hardware or some other audio i/o
use the pci-324 on the machines that came out later (ie: powermac g4 models at least)
i think the pci-324 debuted in 1999...
http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technotes/pci-324-system-requirements
even tho the requirements are less, this is a grey area incompatibility due to the 3rd party cpu..
so just sidestep the issue by using a different audio i/o on this specific powermac 9600 build
i would liek to see u beat it.. but it looks like its gonna take some headscratching... and it sounds like ur not 'feelin it'
;)
to me, the 9600 seems like a perfect match for pro tools TDM or maybe the audiomedia III?
or if its logic you want to run why not track down an AudioWerk 8 card... its mentioned in my book on logic 4 that
this emagic specific card works really well (duh, they made both the hardware + software) and instead of using ASIO
it uses EASI some proprietary version of the technology (or similar technology) made by emagic themselves
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S12YJSM4L._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
(http://www.sweetwater.com/publications/sweetnotes/sn-earlywinter98/graphics/product_pt24mix.jpg)
(http://www.oamao.com/Matos/carteson/Audiowerk8/kit.jpg)
i mean there it is the 9600 in all its glory modeled next to the pt24mixplus system in its product shot
or why not try an event/echo interface
(http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA018718/towns/junk/gina01.jpg)
this card is from 1997 and looks like a piece of shit but sounds amazing for some reason i have it installed on my win98 box
i think its incompatible with the later g3/g4s but compatible just fine with the beige macs
but -- i thought the whole reason u got a 9600 was to get the extra 2 pci slots to be able to house more pro tools tdm cards!
which motu box were u connecting to the 324?
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u could try out a samplecellII card and turn your 9600 into a sampler :)
_BT is lookin for the installer cd as u probably saw in the thread
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1761.new#new
thats another card from the beige mac era...
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My 9600 is the first version they came out with, an old 200mhz one. As far as I know the motherboard on this one is different from the later ones. To test it I'm going to have to find a 9600 that's a later version but I don't feel up to all of that right now.
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I think I finally got it after about two weeks of screwing with it, and it was only until the NewerTech card showed up today that I was able to figure it out.
Hey Chris, you know how we can't get MOTU Unisyn to work without a SCSI drive on a 9600? But how it works fine on a G4? Somehow MOTU software knows the specs of a system and what came stock on it, and if it sees anything missing from it it freaks out and won't work.
I think I can apply the same to the MOTU drivers, but with another missing part. Both the Sonnet extension and the NewerTech extensions automatically disable the motherboard cache on the 9600 (I think mine is soldered in permanently and other, later 9600s have removable cache chips). For some reason the MOTU extensions aren't liking when the 9600's onboard L2 cache is missing (disabled in this case).
The Sonnet software comes with no options to tweak stuff at all, but the NewerTech control panel has a few things. It was only after I turned the motherboard's L2 cache back on that it started working. Now it has me wondering how this is working since now I've got 64k of L1 cache, 1MB of L2 cache (backside), and the motherboard's cache is appearing as L3 cache in Gauge Pro.
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I've been screwing with this machine for 12 hours now, I'll be back with another update after some sleep. I hope I've finally fixed it...
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things changed considerably from 97-2000
the motu stuff came out later on.. after the b&W g3..
it was as radical a change (for the time) as the intel/mac switch of 2006
in that, alot of people instantly dropped the old for thew in favour of such performance increases etc
and the focus of the developers isntanyl changed.. to not really caring about fixing eveyrthing or even testing the older gear compatibility
this is why i say, use the pci-324 on a b&w or newer computer..
find an i/o from the day+ age of the 9600 for the 9600...
other options
a korg 1212 card, a sonorus studi/o card, lexicon made a pci card.
theres tons of options.. or just use it for midi and fuck the audio i/o alltogether
if u can remember all that stuff i dug up about midi timing being supposedly more steady with the 200mhz and below macs
ill ahve to diig up the thread again that i started posting pics of 9600s in
from like 3months back, actually more that was in spring...
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so what the hell happened in the end?
did u take out the cpu? or take out the 324?
I think I finally got it after about two weeks of screwing with it, and it was only until the NewerTech card showed up today that I was able to figure it out.
u got another 9600 cpu upgrade?
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The MOTU software doesn't like that the motherboard's onboard cache is disabled. I had to re-enable it which isn't possible with a Sonnet because there is no control panel.