The ARS-2133 is an IDE-to-SATA 2.5” HDD bay adapter serving as a solution for for IT professionals, SOHO users, industrial PCs, factory equipment, hospital equipment and professional repair technicians. For old and industrial systems that do not support SATA hard drives, the ARS-2133 can “concert” a 2.5” SATA hard drive into a 3.5” IDE hard drive. This way, users will not need to upgrade their systems for using 2.5” SATA hard drives.
Hey Chris, have there been any benchmarks done on PCI SATA cards Vs. IDE-SATA adapters on G4s? Using the same drive? I wonder what's faster.
even worse u are openly telling someone to avoid something u havent even tested yourself!!!!!!!!I was setting up at least 20 to 25 G4 DAWs a Month with North Shore Computer in NY and YES I tried BOTH SCSI and SATA cards... both of which would cause Audio tracking issues when Multiple Powercores or Multiple UADs were used... but we did use hard drive controllers in units that had only 1 add-in PCI (like an audio interface) so I don't know why you keep thinking I never tried one; but thanks for the opinion :)
u need to actually own one and try it before u knock it + openly tell others that its a must u avoid it... because u dont know for sure.. theres a good chance it would work fantastically. YOU HAVENT TRIED IT
From Diehard:
I am making this last response in reference to the whole PCI bus mastering discussion so that newbies or people building a DAW can make so quick notes to avoid problems; this is not a debate, this is just real world observations.
The term "Bus Mastering" describes a protocol where the device itself performs the basic computations necessary to perform input/output, thus freeing the CPU for other tasks. UltraDMA (ATA-33) was the first version of IDE to fully use the Bus Mastering protocol. Bus Mastering interfaces and devices are usually faster than PIO.
From Chris:
My opinion is that was much more likely a limitation of the CPU's ability to handle and process what was being done on pci bus then the actual pci bus itself.
Diehard.. I would bet u cash doing tests with different levels of macs would reveal the cpu to be the mitigating factor.. comparing a 450mhz sawtooth to a 933 qs to a 1.42mdd and finally a 2.0ghz upgraded cpu.. when the higher models have no issue at all would u say that its because their pci bus is "better"???? seriously think back to which macs were actually in use back in the day when u recall these problems... guaranteed it was back around 1998-2001 when they had a dog of a cpu.
Diehard Response:
No, the CPU has very little to do with the issues and problems we are discussing. Firstly, these issues on older hardware is not unique to macs... remember, back in 2003, my company not only made between 5 to 15 DAWs a week, but we also made Novell Servers (we were Novell Gold certified) on rack based PCs that served both PCs and Macs. Some of our accounts in New York City had between 100 to 150 workstations both mac and PC connecting to a single server to store files, these systems worked great as long as guidelines with the PCI bus were established.
So, now I'll get to the point, these systems (with not much CPU power) worked perfectly as long as there were ONLY 1 to 2 Bus mastering cards installed in the server... additional SCSI cards used for Tape storage and other media were all either configured as non-bus mastering, or were created from the factory as non-bus mastering cards. (Sometimes the NIC cards were bus mastering also). The point is that the moment too many bus mastering PCI cards were used, all sorts of performance issues on the server would crop up; including slow Hard drive writes, NIC packet issues, and many other problems. Remember, to add to the confusion, some cards can be either be configured as bus mastering or not and some systems have dedicated non-bus mastering slots... so read about the actual cards and system you have.
Back to the Macs... the issue regarding too many Bus mastering PCI cards that tax the PCI bus are very real on ALL MODELS OF POWERMAC G4s from Sawtooth thru MDD EVEN with CPU upgrades; hope that makes it clear enough. On newer macs (like a Mac Pro with snow leopard), this, or course is NOT an issue. We are specifically talking about older Mac Hardware in the G4 era.
From Knez:
The PCI bus of the MDD for example is connected to the same controller as the ATA100 controller, but they do not share bandwidth in any other way. Tons of activity on the ATA100 controller does NOT slow down the PCI stuff. Adding a controller to the PCI bus makes it use up bandwith there insted of where it's "supposed to be", and thus leaves less bandwidth to the other stuff on therse.
From Diehard:
This is 100% correct and that is why my MDD systems that all have a UAD-1, PowerCore, and Audio Interface PCI card, all have an SSD drive on on the ATA bus, NOT a SATA card. So the bus mastering of the internal IDE is done by the CPU itself, while the cards do their own, this balances the load on a fast G4 very well with disk I/O bus mastering being done by the CPU and audio data blocks being done by the bus mastering PCI Audio interface
so to summarize...
To all reading these crazy posts that want some real-world guideline and NOT opinions and theories; as a rule of thumb (without going into specific G4 models and configurations that I have tested and built for DAWs)
1) Keep the number on Bus mastering PCI cards (Like SATA, Audio Interfaces, and SCSI) to a Max of 2, in rare cases 3, but test the system; (non bus mastering PCI cards like extra USB will have no effect and add as many as you want, research or test each card)
2) If your interface is FW, then SATA/SCSI Cards will be fine and not cause any issues
3) Always Initially test the system with just Hard Drive I/O and Audio interface, then add cards like PowerCores, UAD-1, and other PCI one at a time and test again
Did that hybrid drive worked under 9?
People are using velcro and the 3-10 bucks adapter with 2.5 inches drives.
Wow, just checked eBay and the Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge is Still holding at $99 plus shipping !
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACARD-ARS-2133-IDE-PATA-to-SATA-HDD-SSD-Bridge-Adapter-/262023348622?hash=item3d01cf018e:g:iPQAAOxy3zNSeWXA (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACARD-ARS-2133-IDE-PATA-to-SATA-HDD-SSD-Bridge-Adapter-/262023348622?hash=item3d01cf018e:g:iPQAAOxy3zNSeWXA)
That price is crazy !
I need one for a client, so if anyone knows of a similar product (not just an adapter, but a tray/adapter that emulates the perfect size of an IDE desktop drive), please post :)
...
In my opinion only the 64 bits Seritek is worthy, but I usually prefer the SATA to PATA adapters.
Why?
Because are cheap, (the good ones cost around 10 $ and the bad ones around 3$), it don't use PCI bandwidth (in some G4's). And If you are using a SSD with it, even though the bandwidth will be a bit low, you still enjoy one of the best benefits of a SSD: the fast data access time.
Of course if you plan to use a SATA DVD recorder, SATA to PATA adapters are the absolute best option.
Wow... it appears the ARS-2133 has gone up from $49 to $99 !
I think that is ridiculously overpriced (even though it is very high quality)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACARD-ARS-2133-IDE-PATA-to-SATA-HDD-SSD-Bridge-Adapter-/262023348622?hash=item3d01cf018e:g:iPQAAOxy3zNSeWXA
I was hoping to get another one of these :(
If anyone knows of a similar IDE to SATA bridge (that has the same form factor as a IDE desktop hard drive) please post here
Wow, just checked eBay and the Acard ARS-2133 IDE-to-SATA Bridge is Still holding at $99 plus shipping
whoa, expensive :)
i am still looking for a good solution how to mount/fix/isloate converters like that in a QS desktop.
current solution is taping the SSD to the floor.
This design is good (and only this one!)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-to-IDE-adapter-converter-2-5-SATA-Female-to-3-5-inches-IDE-male-40-pin/273076839233
Unfortunately I don't know the manufacturer.
If you notice the PCB - they are made at the same factory where most if not all FT cards used to be made.
The one with two large condensators is a very bad design:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-PATA-IDE-To-Serial-ATA-SATA-Adapter-Converter-For-HDD-DVD/253296862444
Remember: the moment you see two large cylinders next to each other poking out of PCB - run away. These are awful.
And if they announce that an item is "negotiable" they spend 10-15 minutes to write an e-mail why they won't accept your $3.30 offer for what is on display for $3.34.
If you notice the PCB - they are made at the same factory where most if not all FT cards used to be made.
The one with two large condensators is a very bad design:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-PATA-IDE-To-Serial-ATA-SATA-Adapter-Converter-For-HDD-DVD/253296862444
yes, those are the ones i use, i thought they were the cheapest :)
i am aware of those similar models without these big condensators, i love that they are smaller, and they seem to have the same price tag, but never saw them on german ebay when i ordered a bunch some years ago.QuoteRemember: the moment you see two large cylinders next to each other poking out of PCB - run away. These are awful.
yes, i know, when used often, one should control how it looks from time to time.
can you tell HOW bad it is? can it damage the drive or the compuiter when it explodes one day? :P
my optical enclores are only powered on once a week. the G4s are more often...QuoteAnd if they announce that an item is "negotiable" they spend 10-15 minutes to write an e-mail why they won't accept your $3.30 offer for what is on display for $3.34.
i never saw a chinese talking on ebay. sometimes they refund, sometimes not. until now everything arrived in time and in order. if one day they send me shit or forget me, i will still give them "green" even if i loose the game.
who knows, in the end i am supporting communism by buying this stuff? i wouldnt mind... there are worse countries to buy stuff from.
last week i bought a golden necklace from central china for 1,87 euro and another one for 2,24 including shipping. i have no idea how they do that as normally a postcard already costs more.
in germany the very same product costs 14 euro and every third german ebay shop will send you broken stuff and then explain you that it is your fault.
around christmas i am expecting a superb teabrick from nepal, which i had to order 4 months before i need it. not even the wholesale has it here.
btw, i once tested a chinese knock-off "apple" branded DVI to VGA adapter, which actually looks completely like the original - and makes a better picture than the original.
whoa, expensive :)Expensive? $16 ??
i am still looking for a good solution how to mount/fix/isloate converters like that in a QS desktop.
current solution is taping the SSD to the floor.
whoa, expensive :)Expensive? $16 ??
i am still looking for a good solution how to mount/fix/isloate converters like that in a QS desktop.
current solution is taping the SSD to the floor.
Maybe I should add that I previously bough a similar one on fleabay for $10.
Guess what? It did NOT work
I bought probably 30 or so on fee-Bay for the two Xserve RAID-s, under $4 a piece and they do work.3 dollars, 4 dollars, 5 dollars and on and on and on……
It's not the price (sometimes it tells us nothing), but technology.
(S)ATAman do you work for Firmtek?No, I don't. But obviously I did. Long time ago. All their software and more is written by me. And my name is inside of the drivers.
if its connected to a 64bit SATA150 pci card, 2 drives will cap out around 190-200MB/s
if its connected to a 32 bit SATA150 pci card, its gona cap out around 90-105MB/s
if its connected to a native ATA100 port, it should cap out somewhere near 60-65MB/s
if its connected to a native ATA66 port, it should cap out somewhere near 45-50MB/s
if its connected to a native ATA33 port, it should cap out somewhere near 25-30MB/s
(S)ATAman do you work for Firmtek?No, I don't. But obviously I did. Long time ago. All their software and more is written by me. And my name is inside of the drivers.
Either they are electronically signed by me (post-Sierra requirement) or it's just straight there (FCode). Not difficult to find either out, just use ASP for Sierra or later.
But please no names here.
Otherwise I am not with them since almost 10 years. And the Thunderbolt development is not what I did. I think, their Thunderbolt development was unique because it was done by a SINGLE PERSON (I have nothing to do with it) and not a team. It was probably an enormous effort - which wasn't valued as much as much money and effort was put there. Sad. But that wasn't my work anymore. I am afraid, that ultimately the Thunderbolt was what consumed the resources. A very much unjust thing - why should a 2-man company (yes, all FirmTek was about TWO people. And after I had to go - essentially ONLY ONE!) finance the R&D of Intel and Apple combined?
So there is the secret... FirmTek even in it's best days was only two people. And the third (M***) was / (is?) working for free. At least when I was there, he did not get a Cent.
(S)ATAman
so you are the same guy who i saw posting on https://www.macgurus.com/forums/ ? back in the day?
if so; i was hoping you would show up some day;) happy holidays to you sir
we are all indebted to your work
i have a number of cards , sonnet, firmtek, acard etc
i hope that you can help Daniel out to achieve some great result for the benefit of all of us retro users
Just when you might think that it’s quiet enough to take a nap…
yet another “rogue” enters the proverbial fold.
That MICROPΩLIS is still here and working (but gathering dust).
Could possibly be in (S)ATAman’s future, minus the SCSI drives.
If we all hang around here long enough, who knows who…
and what might just show up? ;)
Welcome aboard, glad that you're here!
If anyone knows what is an OK video card for G4 MDD which can drive a 30" monitor under "9" at the 2560 x 1600 that would be helpful.
If anyone knows what is an OK video card for G4 MDD which can drive a 30" monitor under "9" at the 2560 x 1600 that would be helpful.
we believe none does that, not even the geforce 4 ti.
the "9" cards mostly end up at 2048x1536 - and you will also not be able to attach a dual-DVI monitor to ADC so easily.
the radeon 9600 had dual link dvi on a G4, but of course only in OSX. and when i rember right they are all x8? (p.s.: nevermind, i looked it up, it also is limited to 2048x1536)
i dont know by heart as there are probably more than one model of the 8500.
if you only need more screenspace the better path is to use multiple monitors.
but the 30" seems not doable.
in theory you could feed a 30" with two GPUs which each delivers 2560 x 800... but if i would have to guess... then i would think that there is also no card which can do this under OS9 (plus "multiresolutions" extension) :P
and it might look strange when the upper half is not in sync with the lower half.
I did see in a German-speaking forum that somebody achieved the full 2560 x 1600. In my seniority moment I forgot to save the link.
I did see in a German-speaking forum that somebody achieved the full 2560 x 1600. In my seniority moment I forgot to save the link.
CubeOwner?
Industry moves towards 16:10 from 2003 to 2008
Until about 2003, most computer monitors had a 4:3 aspect ratio and some had 5:4. Between 2003 and 2006, monitors with 16:10 aspect ratios became commonly available, first in laptops and later also in standalone monitors. Such displays were considered to be better suited for productive uses such as word processing and computer-aided design.[4][5]
1900x1200 on "9" with 2D acceleration good enough to feel CodeWarrior UI fast enough
But given the superb font quality of "9" and the very clear UI guidelines the 1900x1200 (hope, that resolution will work on "9" with 9000 Pro) is not much less productive than my 4K on "X".
absolutely.
i am regulary pissed how the size 9 font in my apps look when i open the same stuff on windows or post 10.11 OSX.
The problem is with every single version of "X".
Just bought 5 of these recommended design ide-SATA bridges.
They will arrive here in 1-2 months.
Thanks (S)ATAman.
Chris have done good bandwidth test, but my picture is pretty clear, I think:
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2023.0;attach=1494)
In my opinion only the 64 bits Seritek is worthy, but I usually prefer the SATA to PATA adapters.
Why?
Because are cheap, (the good ones cost around 10 $ and the bad ones around 3$), it don't use PCI bandwidth (in some G4's). And If you are using a SSD with it, even though the bandwidth will be a bit low, you still enjoy one of the best benefits of a SSD: the fast data access time.
Access time. I was just asking you, does it worth the money/time to upgrade my G4 MDD to SSD? I’m currently working with a IDE ATA/100. I think I’m fine atm since I do not use it a lot but who knows...
Of course if you plan to use a SATA DVD recorder, SATA to PATA adapters are the absolute best option.