Mac OS 9 Lives

Classic Mac OS Hardware => General Hardware Discussions => Topic started by: FdB on November 06, 2018, 07:49:07 PM

Title: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FdB on November 06, 2018, 07:49:07 PM
“All these tubes and wires… I can’t find anything.”
       She Blinded Me With Science -Thomas Dolby

Picked up yet another Quicksilver (867MHz) recently (because of all the retail
OS packages that came with it). It’s got an “A” board, not a “B” and it’s painfully
slow booting. Boot ROM currently @ 4.2.5f2 while other QS’es here are 4.3.3f2
(“B” boards) and I know that I have a Firmware updater ‘round here somewhere,
but my memory and search efforts fail me and I have Googled extensively,
all to no avail (thus far).

Anybody lay their hands on a updater copy, easily?
Or does this even apply to the good ol’ “A” board?

Signed,
Looked… but lazy
Title: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: AlphaMac on March 11, 2019, 02:01:29 PM
Newbie here looking for help and advice on restoring an old G4 for audio production. I'm not that computer literate but I think I'll get through this. I'm hoping to quite this unit a bit and speed up the drive space.

Specs: G4 Power Mac, 733Mhz, QuickSilver, Gigabit, 2001

Questions

1. Is it worth replacing the PSU fan?
2. What SSD is compatible for my G4? I think it will only read up to 120GB, but that's fine for me.
3. Are they any other mods or improvements I should know about outside of the PSU and fans?
4. What is the most suitable case fan and processor fan?

That's all for starters. Any info will help. Thanks

-AlphaMac

 
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: Mardeec on March 12, 2019, 02:45:27 PM
I can't help with the power supply and fan questions, but take a look at Other World Computing for a selection of SSDs.

https://eshop.macsales.com/upgrades/

Look under "Legacy" and follow the menus for your model.

I have the same model Quicksilver, and I thought it was somewhat quieter than the MDD models, but probably still too noisy for any serious recording.  Good luck with your restoration! 
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 12, 2019, 04:44:53 PM
Thanks Mardeec.

OWC is my first choice but now I need to know if a 250GB drive will work on my system, or at least read 120GB. I just want to make sure before I buy it. They've sold out of 120GB, yet the 250GB is around the same price. Seems like a waste of space to buy 250GB.

Q: Am I limited to 120GB for my entire system or 120GB per drive?
Q: If it's 120GB per drive are there other 120GB drives at half the price (or cheaper than OWC's 250GB) so I can install two 120GB drives?

Any feedback is welcome.

P.S. Yes it's a noisy unit for audio recording, but it's worked fine since the first day I bought it. I plan to use it in a other room with an Apogee Track2 converter.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: Mardeec on March 12, 2019, 06:45:36 PM
AlphaMac,

I haven't done this with any of my G4s, but take a look at DieHard's post on using large hard drives:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2765.msg17150.html#msg17150

Especially the section IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE A HARD DRIVE GREATER THAN 128 GB USE Mac OS 9.2.2

Fortunately, the Quicksilver 733 is one of the models with the correct specs to handle this.  As I understand it, as long as you keep the partitions under 190Gb, it's possible to use very large drives.



Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on March 13, 2019, 08:28:33 AM
Thanks Mardeec.

OWC is my first choice but now I need to know if a 250GB drive will work on my system, or at least read 120GB. I just want to make sure before I buy it. They've sold out of 120GB, yet the 250GB is around the same price. Seems like a waste of space to buy 250GB.

Q: Am I limited to 120GB for my entire system or 120GB per drive?
Q: If it's 120GB per drive are there other 120GB drives at half the price (or cheaper than OWC's 250GB) so I can install two 120GB drives?

Any feedback is welcome.

P.S. Yes it's a noisy unit for audio recording, but it's worked fine since the first day I bought it. I plan to use it in a other room with an Apogee Track2 converter.

-AlphaMac

It will depend on your Logic Board if you can see over 128GB, there is a ton of info here on the forum

also... this is from our main site...

Quote
If you intend to use hard drives larger than 128GB under OS 9, then be aware that you will need a Mac with an IDE controller that is 48-bit LBA compliant. What the hell is that, you ask? Well, it is the ability of the Mac to see the total number of heads, cylinders, and sectors of large hard drives. We have tested the following Macs and they can see hard drives of up to 500GB within Mac OS 9.2.2: Power Mac G4 QuickSilver 733, 800, Dual 800, 867, 933, and Dual 1 GHz with logic board 820-1342-B (QS logic board 820-1276-A will NOT work and peak out at 128 GB)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 13, 2019, 12:56:06 PM
Thanks I'll look into this. How can I tell what model logic board I have? It's not powered up right now and I'm waiting for a new PSU.

I was playing around with the CPU fan today. I had it out of the board running on a 12V adapter. I was moving the fan (with the rubber case) in its position and noticed that when pressed into position the vibration of the steel case alone increases some noise. It there's a way to isolate or suspend the fan that alone would reduce some noise.

I've been looking at this brand for fans: NB-Multiframe M8-S3 80mm x 25mm Ultra Silent Fan - 2200 RPM - 19 dBA  http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8399/fan-515/Noiseblocker_NB-Multiframe_M8-S3_80mm_x_25mm_Ultra_Silent_Fan_-_2200_RPM_-_19_dBA.html?tl=g33c165s356#blank (http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8399/fan-515/Noiseblocker_NB-Multiframe_M8-S3_80mm_x_25mm_Ultra_Silent_Fan_-_2200_RPM_-_19_dBA.html?tl=g33c165s356#blank)

The specs are a little lower than the original fans but I plan to compensate some airflow with something. I'm not worried about cosmetics. I'll drill some holes if I have to.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 13, 2019, 05:52:06 PM
Would this work for the the case fan? I know opinions will vary but I'm betting the soft material will be less noisy from the original without sacrificing CFM flow.

Noiseblocker NB-eLoop B12-4 120mmx25mm Ultra Silent Bionic Blade Fan - 2400 RPM - 34.29 dBA http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16919/fan-1049/Noiseblocker_NB-eLoop_B12-4_120mmx25mm_Ultra_Silent_Bionic_Blade_Fan_-_2400_RPM_-_3429_dBA_.html?tl=g33c165s358#blank

3 Pin to 2 Pin Adapter Cable http://www.frozencpu.com/products/7748/cab-127/3_Pin_to_2_Pin_Adapter_Cable_-_Type_A.html?tl=g2c251s634

Any issues with converting 3-to-2 pin? Sorry for the basic questions.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on March 14, 2019, 08:39:20 AM
Quote
Thanks I'll look into this. How can I tell what model logic board I have

The part Number described is literally stamped on the top of board, no need to remove or power up, just look (google location if you cannot find it)

As far as fan mods, search the forum, we have covered much of this many times... changing fans from 3 wire to 2 wire configurations, usually result in them running non-variable (full speed only)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 14, 2019, 07:23:36 PM
Got it. Thanks. I posted an image for layman's like me.

(https://i.ibb.co/zFJd4pC/IMG-7356.jpg)

I'm drilling larger holes right now on the steel grill frame for the fan case. I seen the post on making an outter grill on the plastic case. I might try that. It makes sense to get more hot air out of the unit.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 14, 2019, 08:17:55 PM
Here's the steel case grill drilled out with larger holes. The drill bit size as 9/32. I used a vacuum pressing up against the grill from the inside to catch the shavings while drilling from the opposite side. This kept the grill from bending while I was pushing against it with the drill.

One thing I noticed while half way complete was the noise of the vacuum when pressed against the larger holes compared to the old sized holes. The old holes would screech at a high pitch while the larger holes were drastically less noisy. Obviously there's less obstruction for air to flow now.

I might attempt the plastic casing now. Not sure yet.

(https://i.imgur.com/GhBZcoc.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/68o2rd4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bebKHTF.jpg)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: refinery on March 15, 2019, 12:20:40 AM
i dont think you would need to add any vent holes to the plastic case. there's an air-gap in the bottom where it meets the metal frame which allows it to vent, probably more than sufficient for your needs. plus, why ugly up the case?

also have you considered widening the inlet holes toward the front of the case? Especially if you're increasing the air output, there's a potential that there may not be enough ventilation to pull in cool air in which case the effort of the new exhaust is wasted.

you might, if you're feeling daring, want to replace the fan in the PSU. ive found those are usually the worst culprits. but, if you're buying a new PSU, it may not be an issue.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on March 15, 2019, 08:19:15 AM
Got it. Thanks. I posted an image for layman's like me.

(https://i.ibb.co/zFJd4pC/IMG-7356.jpg)


So for your unit, use hard drives that are 120GB and smaller, it will NOT see large drives
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 15, 2019, 09:37:00 AM
@refinery I'm just doing some minor enchantments until I understand the airflow dynamics of this unit. I'll check out the inlet holes you're talking about.


@DieHard Thanks. I figured. But does that mean 120GB per drive or throughout my entire chain? I couldn't find anything specifying that. I'd still be happy with a fast 120GB SSD drive since I transfer everything to my main computer anyways. But if I can get two 120GB going that would be great.


I got my PSU today. What's the best way to test the PSU out of the box? I seen the paperclip test but I don't want to try it until I know for sure.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on March 15, 2019, 10:49:13 AM
Quote
I figured. But does that mean 120GB per drive or throughout my entire chain?

128GB Max PER DRIVE... So, you can do (2) on the main Controller and an additional drive under the CD ROM (instead of a Zip); (3) Hard drives @ 120GB Each :)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 15, 2019, 11:14:38 AM
@DieHard That's good enough for me. Now I have to get this thing actually running.

I did some basic tests with a multimeter on the new PSU and I can't get a voltage reading across the pins. The seller said it was tested and power cable is fine. Could it be the fuse?

I might need a backup plan here cause I need to get this unit running asap. Can anyone recommend someone who can rebuild a G4 to spec? Or has a refurbished one for sale.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: FdB on March 15, 2019, 11:49:10 AM
Where (in-the-world) are you... located? ::)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 15, 2019, 12:30:14 PM
@FdB Toronto, Canada.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 15, 2019, 03:45:58 PM
Ok I've made numerous attempts to get a voltage reading across the PSU pins and no luck. I tried to jump the pins as a last attempt and no luck either. Before I conclude this is a dead unit is there anything I should try? I haven't installed it yet. Would it matter? Does anything on the logic board affect or turn something on to get the power going? Any advice is welcome.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: FdB on March 15, 2019, 04:18:36 PM
How reliable is the source of the PSU? Can you return it easily?

If you take your time and carefully install it and still
it does not work… then return it. If the PSU is dead,
it won’t hurt your QS and you may then know for certain
that the PSU is completely deceased. AND make certain
that your onboard battery is good / fresh (& if not, removed.)

*Even though some have reported no-boot status without the battery.

Once you install the PSU, take note of exactly what the machine does,
even if it does not completely boot with the new (used) PSU.
Or, even if it does absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: refinery on March 15, 2019, 04:43:13 PM
you could just lay it out flat next to the machine temporarily and connect it up and see if it turns on?
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: FdB on March 15, 2019, 06:30:18 PM
For that matter, might as well test the PSU already in the machine in the same way that the new PSU has been tested, to see if it shows “no voltage” as well… to “test the testing”, so to speak.

Evidently the original PSU was working… in order to power the fans and provide the noise that AlphaMac seeks to quiet.

Did the original PSU die, or is it slated to be replaced because of its’ fan noise? If it’s a matter of a bad fan in the original PSU, then maybe move the fan from the new PSU to the old one.

AND, if the Quicksilver is to be sequestered in another room as mentioned… what’s a little fan noise?

Unless it’s freakin’ screaming through the walls. ;)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 15, 2019, 07:33:11 PM
@FdB My old PSU was dead. The other day I removed the fan and powered it with an adapter and it was hardly moving on its own. I had to push it with my finger. The short story is I came home one day and seen my mac off -- power it on and it shut off again 20-30min later. Tried again and that was it. My worry is if the logic board was damaged.

---

I tried the installation a few times. Nothing happened. Dead cold. So I opened the PSU as far as removing the circuit board a little bit -- don't worry I planned to short the capacitors with a neon bulb but when I measured them there was no voltage, even after plugging the unit in 20 minutes before. I don't think they're filling up. 

I also looked around for any burns parts. Nothing. Other than a small area on the circuit board with some slight discoloration everything looked ok, but what do I know. The odd thing was there was no dust at all when I blew it out. Maybe someone opened this unit already.

Anyways I was prepared for this. For any newbies reading this make sure you find a reputable seller or someone experienced in refurbishing PSUs. These units are getting old so the chances of something going wrong increases over time.

Time to move forward with the next plan.



Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 15, 2019, 08:00:25 PM
Does anyone know of this person's service for refurbishing PSUs? They have a pretty high rating.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Quicksilver-Power-Supply-QS-API1PC12/141543772231?hash=item20f4aa9047:g:CRUAAOSwk5FUuUsM

Question: If I get the PSU fixed but the logic board is damaged, am I running the risk of burning the PSU? I might even get both PSUs fixed to keep one for the future.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: FdB on March 15, 2019, 08:12:42 PM
Ah, you posted just as I was about to. Looks like Andy has raised his prices a bit….

Appreciate the explanation. Still wonder about you trying to solve fan noise in a machine that wouldn’t run… unless your PSU has just died very recently. But, no matter.

For PSU rebuild / refurbs contact Andy Cuffe ([email protected]) down in Austin Texas USA. He’s a very good guy and may even rebuild Quicksilver PSUs for slightly less than the MDDs. He did say back in November of 2017 …that he could offer members of this Forum a price reduction for his services.

And here’s an eBay link (provided by GaryN) for Andy’s services:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/REPAIR-SERVICE-Apple-PowerMac-G4-Mirror-Drive-Doors-Power-Supply-MDD/141030901102?hash=item20d618c56e:g:~RsAAMXQysxSAA61

If you’re now stuck with (2) bad PSUs, Andy might offer you a little for one of the dead ones. Ask him. And be certain to tell him that you're a member of MacOS9Lives Forum.

All of this, if you can’t find a good source for this service… up there in Canada.

Only other simple thing I might suggest at this point is to check continuity through the PSU’s fuse. But if the machine did start & run, only to then die later (never to boot again) then it’s most likely RIP… PSU.

I’ve two QS “spares” at present. One completely dead and the other one with a dead fan power circuit… or I’d simply send you one. My regrets. Do contact Andy.

And no, it shouldn’t damage the PSU if the logic board is toast.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 15, 2019, 09:43:01 PM
I had this unit in a rackmount covered with sound panels -- it was a hotbox, but it ran for more than a decade like this. Ha. So I never paid that much attention to the noise. Eventually it gave out. So that's when I decided to give it some love.

I'd rather fix this unit and use the old version of Pro Tools than commit to new software and hardware. The way things are going now everything requires an annual licensing fee. It's ridiculous and expensive. And than you have to deal with all the bugs and updates. The old Pro Tools ran flawlessly with no latency. For me it's worth to fix.

Thanks for the info. I'll contact him and see what he can arrange. I'm hoping he can switch out the fan with a newer fan too.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 16, 2019, 05:11:46 AM
Quote
Only other simple thing I might suggest at this point is to check continuity through the PSU’s fuse.

Where is the fuse located?
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on March 16, 2019, 10:03:56 AM
Hair Dryer trick works on many bad QS Power supplies (search for it here or google it),

basically, leave the unit plugged in, heat the PS with a hair dryer for about 3 to 5 minutes via the back and obviously don't hold it is one spot too long on "super hot" mode; then try to power on, if you don't unplug the PS from the wall, it will then start on it's own; clients sometimes get 1 to 2 years out of a bad PS in this manner

some info here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=566.0
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 16, 2019, 11:38:40 AM
Dryer didn't work. I'm done with short term solutions. This PSU needs to be refurbished anyways.

I might get lucky and scoop a 800Mhz QS with Tiger installed. Then keep working on this G4 as a backup. Now I have to check if I can get a copy of Pro Tools for a mix/24 system and run it on Tiger, unless I'm able to wipe out Tiger and install OS9.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 17, 2019, 04:41:04 PM
I'll be purchasing a new G4 soon as a quick resolution to get production up and running. If I'm lucky I'll be able to swap out my old drive into a new G4 to retrieve some session files. I'm guessing this would only work with other G4 QS models, or can it work with higher models, say G5? I don't know.

I still plan to rebuild my current QS and experiment a bit, so I'll keep this thread going with updates.

After playing with the fans, in and outside the box with a power adapter, I'm convinced the internal steel case is pretty much an echo chamber that needs dampening. Just take a pen and hit the inside steel case of you'll hear it resonate at a high pitch. With the fans and wind blowing (moving air creates noise), all that noise is circulating inside the unit and mostly coming out the back. I'll keep you posted on some ideas I plan to try.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 18, 2019, 08:04:58 AM
Here she is. It's a B board. It was from a local seller. I drove as fast as I could when he told me it was a B board.

I just need to confirm if I can swap out this drive for my old drive. I read some posts online and it says this was only possible with OS9 as OSX and later versions need need to recognize hardware. Any thoughts?

I had my old G4 in a rackmount with sound panels around it — then it stopped working — so I never had the chance to study the noise. Now I can hear it running on the bench.

I didn't tear it down, but just to confirm that the fans on this unit weren't modified: my case fan and PSU fan are both blowing air out. I tested with a small piece of paper. Is that right?

(https://i.imgur.com/IXsfCCn.jpg)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: FdB on March 18, 2019, 09:20:42 AM
Yes, fans do seem to blow weird... but if you've not changed anything, they're blowing correctly.

AND, just swap out the drives and try to boot it from your old drive. Should work. If not, it won't hurt anything. Just won't boot.

Only one HD in your old 733 QS? I ask only if the old HD was setup as a slave or a master. If there was only one drive, then chances are that is already setup correctly as a master.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 19, 2019, 11:11:48 AM
Man that worked like a charm. I switched the drives and it fired right up with no problems.

Now I have to figure out what internal drives to install and whether to go PCI or IDE.

-AlphaMac
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: refinery on March 19, 2019, 02:32:03 PM
tough call on that machine. the internal bus is only ATA5 (66MB) sec so you could get an IDE-SATA converter, or try to track down a OS9-compatible PCI SATA card on ebay. they pop up from time to time. I have PCI SATA cards in two of my OS9 machines and its very nice and fast.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 20, 2019, 08:38:18 AM
@refinery: I've been reading this post regarding PCIs on G4s http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,803.msg2903.html#msg2903

Does this mean no matter what I'm limited to 66mb/s whether IDE or PCI, or have other configurations exceeded this limit? I don't even know what my current 7200 HDs are transferring at. What's the best way to test it?
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 20, 2019, 03:18:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Mzu8slk.png)

I selected a bunch of case fans measuring around 90-110 CFM and then narrowed it down to SilenX and Noiseblocker. I might modify the 140mm to fit my 733mhz and use the SlienX on the 800mhz, although at 38mm wide it might be too tight to fit the case.

The dBA/CFM ratio implies the lowest noise per volume of air moved. In other words the lower the better. I'm a bit skeptical about the SlienX being so low — almost 50% below average. Maybe it is that good.





Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: refinery on March 20, 2019, 03:26:26 PM
@refinery: I've been reading this post regarding PCIs on G4s http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,803.msg2903.html#msg2903

Does this mean no matter what I'm limited to 66mb/s whether IDE or PCI, or have other configurations exceeded this limit? I don't even know what my current 7200 HDs are transferring at. What's the best way to test it?

you're only limited to 66mb if you stick with the internal bus. If you go with PCI based solutions, its dependent entirely on the card, you could get an ATA-100, ATA-133, or a SATA-based (150) card.

The drives however are really the limiting factor. A typical 120GB spinner drive will probably not come close to saturating that connection. ATTO Disk Benchmark tools here:
https://www.atto.com/downloads/42#9

do include a benchmark tool, but to be honest I dont know if its limited to ATTO only cards. worth a shot I suppose. That would tell you if your existing drive is saturating that link or not.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: refinery on March 20, 2019, 03:27:20 PM

The dBA/CFM ratio implies the lowest noise per volume of air moved. In other words the lower the better. I'm a bit skeptical about the SlienX being so low — almost 50% below average. Maybe it is that good.

Have you looked at Noctua fans? They are expensive but some of the best you can get for noise levels. I use them almost exclusively and they never disappoint (and they usually have 7 year warranties too... on a FAN!)

www.noctua.at
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 20, 2019, 04:54:39 PM
@refinery: Thanks. I might go with SATA. I'm trying to find an internal/external PCI card to setup a swappable external drive for transferring files to my main computer. 

Noctua's dBA/CFM ratio is very low with SilenX and Noiseblocker, but for my use the CFM isn't high enough. I have PT pci/DSP cards that add  extra heat to my unit. If I was going for noise reduction in a stock G4 I'd consider this fan. I've updated the specs with Noctua.

(https://i.imgur.com/MqIm0y8.png)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: refinery on March 21, 2019, 06:44:00 PM
well there's plenty of other models besides the ULN that are super quiet. I use the (now-discontinued) P12 @ 1300RPM in my MDD and also my Hackintosh and they are unbelievably quiet. They also give you in-line resistor packs to slow down the speeds if they are too loud for your taste.

i only keep pushing the noctuas because they have a very good reputation (not counting my own personal excellent experiences with their products) but I know other manufacturers have been accused in the past of woefully overstating their fans' performance. might be worth doing some googling to see how accurate those others are in their claimed cooling statistics. I know nothing about NoiseBlocker but I do recall hearing SilenX being accused of that in the past.

ive honestly been surprised Apple hasnt made moves to buy Noctua, their cooling tech is so well-made. It seems like the perfect match to Apple products.

regarding the PCI sata card, the only one I know of with both internal and external ports is the Seritek 1eVE2+2, but good luck finding one of those as they are long discontinued. However, you may have luck finding one with a compatible chipset that can be flashed. Check out the storage forums for more threads on those. Alternatively, if you found one with internal ports and arent too picky about frankensteining your machine, you could always use an internal sata to e-sata adapter cable.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 22, 2019, 06:25:41 AM
@refinery: Quiet out-of-the-box is one thing, how long it sustains at the same dBA level is another. The chart below compares the noise increase of Sunon's MagLev tech to general fans. Any new fan will sound great out of the box because it's balanced with minimal bearing friction. But after 10,000 hours it might be 50% than the original dBA rating due to mechanical erosion.

For someone like me that wants durability as opposed to the lowest noise reduction, what they want is sustainable anti-vibration.

(https://i.imgur.com/oub90lQ.png)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: refinery on March 22, 2019, 02:18:50 PM
well for what its worth, the noctuas in my hackintosh are at least 4 years old at this point and ive never noticed any noise increase in that time. whichever you end up choosing im sure it will be a great improvement over whats in there now.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 22, 2019, 09:15:52 PM
So for the case fan I decided to go with Noiseblocker's NB-eLoop B14-3 (140mmx29mm, 1400rpm, 104.9CFM, 28.5dBA).

Why I choose this fan..

Size: With a small mod to the fan case being lowered about 1/2", a 140mm fan can fit nicely in the steel case. Larger blades means more CFM and with the extra space available I figured 140mm was a better bet. I didn't want to substitute air flow for less noise. Also the specs above are rated at 13.8v (max) so at 12v I expect a CFM around the mid-to-lower 90s. With the extra CFM I can even add dust filters around the unit, which is really what kills the bearings on fans.

Anti-Vibration: One of the first things I noticed when studying the interior of my G4 was the transfer of noise and vibration. It was noticeably since my fans were worn and noisy. I knew right away that noise could greatly be reduced by using rubber materials. Noiseblocker fans are designed with a the right materials and mounts for reducing the transfer of vibration. If you listen to youtube vids comparing Noiseblocker to other fans, you'll notice less tabletop noise from the anti-vibration design.

I don't doubt the performance of any other premium fans. I choose this fan for my purpose being in a studio with lots of heat generated from vintage tube amps and other high-powered gear.

I had few errors on my spreadsheet. Below is the updated table. Next is the CPU and PSU fan.

(https://i.imgur.com/NpEGt8u.png)

Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 24, 2019, 09:41:32 AM
I got the Noiseblocker on the bench. This fan is moving quite a bit of air. Good quality. While I was tinkering around I noticed that if the suction side of the fan is obstructed (I used my hand) it creates more noise like a vacuum, whereas when it's obstructed on the blowing side the noise level stays the same or even dampens a bit. So I won't be installing it in the steel case mount. Just thought I'd share that for anyone considering this fan.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 24, 2019, 12:47:34 PM
Here she is installed. Just humming along nice and quiet. There's still wind noise though since this fan's CFM is fairly high compared to what many might choose, but a big difference from the old fan setup. That steel fan case has no purpose in these units other than a safety feature. It just adds suction noise. Take it out IMO.

(https://i.imgur.com/FLEwrlb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/PVFTUhM.jpg)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: IIO on March 25, 2019, 09:30:41 AM
Thanks Mardeec.

OWC is my first choice but now I need to know if a 250GB drive will work on my system, or at least read 120GB. I just want to make sure before I buy it. They've sold out of 120GB, yet the 250GB is around the same price. Seems like a waste of space to buy 250GB.


all 733s here in europe should only support 127 gb. but there might be other models which do have an 48 controller. (

similar issue with the dual 1.0, there is one series with and one series without)

using a bigger drive is not a problem. the rest will just not be used.

whats your budget? have you thought about SATA?
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on March 25, 2019, 09:59:15 AM
Thanks for the pictures :)

That is one sexy looking fan and I may give it a try in one of my QS

From one of my previous posts:
Quote
My favorite Quicksilver PS fan replacement is an IXTREMA 80 Pro series, sku# IXP-54-14T by Silenx

It rates as super quiet (max 14db) and Pretty good CFM at 32cfm
Best airflow to noise ratio

Just in case one wants to try the PS also
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 25, 2019, 01:55:22 PM
In reference to Reply#9: If you plan to drill out larger holes I suggest to only drill the side fan grill along with the holes on the bottom. That's all you need. Does it make a difference? From my observation yes. I'd say you'll get 15-20% more air flowing out. What's unique about the Noiseblocker is that it chops up the air so it disperses more diagonally as opposed to straight. It's very ideal for optimizing air outflow, but I wouldn't use it as a CPU/PSU fan. That's where Noctua's focused flow fans might be better, or SilenX.

Here's an image showing how it was mounted on the side. I had to line up and drill the holes.

(https://i.imgur.com/84JqspE.jpg)


And here's a little trick if you need to pop the side panel off frequently. Add a small hose clap on the center clip and adjust the tightness so you can clip it off easily by hand from inside. The thing was driving me nuts while testing the acoustics of the panel.

(https://i.imgur.com/gNjgNNE.jpg)


The NB-eLoop B14-3 (140mm) is pushing more air than I expected. I'm testing out different resistors on the negative terminal to slow it down. Right now it seems 20 ohms is the optimal resistance and it's running at about 8.7v.  I need some recommendations for the right resistor wattage and whether I should put a fuse in. Any recommendations?


With the resistor setting the 800mhz super quite now even with the panel off (the side panel isolates a lot of noise), yet when I feel the air flow with my hand compared side-by-side to the Sensflow in the 733mhz, it feels about 1.5-2 times greater. The key is the larger 140mm fan blades that push more air. By sizing up your fan you automatically get more air flow with less dBA.

I wouldn't suggest this size fan unless you plan to mod it with some resisters to slow it down to preference. If you want a plug and play fan try something else. If you want optimal air flow with the least noise, than consider it.

@DieHard I'm looking at the SilenX, but beforehand I want to figure out how to get the PSU dustproof while optimizing airflow. The excess airflow from NB-eLoop B14-3 might allow me to add dust filters in certain areas. 

@IIO I'd like to go SATA but it's hard to find the PCI cards. I'd prefer an internal/external card. I might go IDE until I find something.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: macStuff on March 26, 2019, 12:49:51 PM
if u want a pci card for sata contact max1zz on this site and he can make you one from a sil3112 card
requires soldering a new rom chip on the card + flashing it
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on March 26, 2019, 10:13:16 PM
I snipped out the steel grill on the PSU case. It creates a bit of noise and slows the fan down a bit. It's useless. The outer plastic grill is good enough.

(https://i.imgur.com/2a6RPSO.jpg)

@macStuff Thanks. I'll check it out. But I did read a post about it having some problems on 2001 QS.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: macStuff on March 27, 2019, 10:56:37 AM
hmm ok you may be right there as i have a 2002 quicksilver i think, and mine has never had a problem with it but i do recall reading that some had an issue with it working properly on a QS.
mines a 933mhz. i have a number of the pci cards myself; and they do offer much improved performance over the built in disk controllers.
so much so that i would probably just circumvent by getting a different g4.  you could probably easily find a 2002 qs motherboard to replace the 2001 i would think?
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 01, 2019, 07:01:53 PM
I purchased an OWC 250GB IDE-to-SSD for starters. I need a reliable setup right now and don't want to take any risks with a PCI card until I have it setup as a secondary drive and see it working properly.

Now I have to figure out how to migrate everything from HDD to SSD.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 02, 2019, 08:15:34 PM
Here's the OWC 250GB installed. It only sees 128GB. I'm not sure about the 'B' board theory. Unless I'm forgetting to do something.

It's a lot quieter and cooler now with the HDD out.

(https://i.imgur.com/CwlTDyu.jpg)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on April 03, 2019, 03:01:07 PM
You have to use the drive setup with 9.2.2 to get past 128GB
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 03, 2019, 07:46:05 PM
@DieHard I'm on 9.2.2. I'm not sure what you mean by drive setup. Is it not just plug and play?
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on April 04, 2019, 05:53:13 PM
Here she is. It's a B board. It was from a local seller. I drove as fast as I could when he told me it was a B board.

I just need to confirm if I can swap out this drive for my old drive. I read some posts online and it says this was only possible with OS9 as OSX and later versions need need to recognize hardware. Any thoughts


With the B Board and The apple Drive Setup version V2.1 (included with Mac OS 9.2.2) you should be able to see more than 128GB
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: IIO on April 06, 2019, 08:12:44 PM
Man that worked like a charm. I switched the drives and it fired right up with no problems.

Now I have to figure out what internal drives to install and whether to go PCI or IDE.


PCI would of course include an upgrade to a controller which can see bigger drives, with SATA up to 2TB.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 07, 2019, 10:00:56 AM
@DieHard It only sees 128GB. I'm running 9.2.2 and using Drive Setup V2.1. In the Apple System Profiler it reads size as 137.42GB and capacity at 128GB.

@IIO It's hard to find compatible PCI cards. I'll have to keep looking at snipe one where I can.

----

I went with the Noiseblocker M8-3 NB-Multiframe for the PSU fan. This fan met my criteria best and has a rubber frame to reduce noise/vibrations. I felt it was needed for where it mounts on the PSU. There isn't many options.

With that extra PSU I have -- I'm going to try mounting the fan on the outside rear case so that it pushes air forward and out the rear port. It might be just as effective and keep more wind noise inside the box.

-AlphaMac

(https://i.imgur.com/XZiBfzs.png)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on April 08, 2019, 09:11:30 AM
Quote
@DieHard It only sees 128GB. I'm running 9.2.2 and using Drive Setup V2.1. In the Apple System Profiler it reads size as 137.42GB and capacity at 128GB.

Please give us the firmware version of your board... something is not making sense
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 08, 2019, 11:00:23 AM
@DieHard My specs..

(https://i.imgur.com/YVNnnPS.jpg)
Title: upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
Post by: part12studios on April 09, 2019, 04:48:34 AM
Ok so I have this recently acquired G4 that's clocked at 867mhz..  I was looking around and I saw this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-G4-933MHz-Processor-CPU-820-1344-A-TESTED-933/192879911206?epid=1204738576&hash=item2ce889e126:g:s~gAAOSwaP5cpT68

933mhz card.. not a big upgrade, but i figure its still only another $30..

then I saw this thing, a dual G4 card.. not as cheap.. but its two CPUs..  clocked at 1ghz.. so is this something could be installed?   would it still be OS9 friendly?  (IE no hacking)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Quicksilver-G4-1-0Ghz-Dual-Processor-DP-CPU-820-1324-A-Heat-Sink/192872273132?epid=1400243259&hash=item2ce81554ec:g:~TYAAOSwDXFcm-gM

I'm just looking to make this machine as fast as it can be while being cost considerate..  $100 is a bit much for a relatively small gain in speed, but maybe one will come along cheaper..  or don't bother because it won't even be utilized by OS9


Also, another question about upgrading..  These computers still use IDE HDD right?  I'm looking to move to SSD drives with a caddy..  (Mostly for noise in my music studio, but also reliability reasons).  just need to shop around for a good IDE adapter and making sure I buy the right kind. 


Thanks!
Caleb
Title: Re: upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
Post by: part12studios on April 09, 2019, 05:01:03 AM
would this be what i'm looking for?  I want to buy standard modern SSD Sata drives to replace the internal HDD I have in there..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-15-Pin-SATA-SSD-HDD-Female-to-2-5-44Pin-IDE-Male-Adapter-for-Laptop-LW/253896916102?epid=24016962850&hash=item3b1d6f7c86:g:eAUAAOSwaelbqy85

I'd be looking to but a couple of 120gb SSD drives to use like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Kingston-A400-120GB-SATA-III-2-5-Internal-Solid-State-Drive-X-SA400S37-120G/133003757863?epid=6026728666&hash=item1ef7a44927:g:rB4AAOSwq2JbhyRU

This should cut down a significant amount of noise coming from my device because those old HDD were noisy.. 
 
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: DieHard on April 10, 2019, 09:31:07 AM
OK... so I am at a loss

From your serial number you definitely have a 2002 Quicksilver; the total production run was Jul 18, 2001 - Aug 13, 2002...
your particular unit was built in March of 2002 and sources state...
Quote
These were the first Macs to officially support hard drives over 128 GB on the built-in Ultra ATA/66 (ATA-5) hard drive bus, although reader reports indicate that the earlier Quicksilver model sometimes does so, depending on the logic board installed.
Quote
The Power Macintosh G4 (Quicksilver 2002) series is very similar to the "Quicksilver" series that it replaced -- both share an identical case design, for example -- but the Power Macintosh G4/933 (Quicksilver 2002) and Power Macintosh G4/1.0 DP (Quicksilver 2002) -- have faster processors with faster DDR SDRAM level 3 caches. Additionally, all Quicksilver 2002 models support hard drives larger than 128 GB

You also mentioned you actually checked the Logic board and it indeed is a "Rev B" QS Board which also supports over 128GB

One thing that should be noted, if you make the volume over 200GB OS 9 will not boot, so...

1) Did you make try to make a 190 GB Partition and a second partition, or did you try the entire 256 GB ?
2) Have you tried a standard IDE/PATA Hard drive (although that should not matter)

At the moment, I don't have time to check what the latest firmware for a 2002 QS is, but maybe someone else can chime in
Title: Re: QS Firmware & SSD Bridges
Post by: FdB on April 10, 2019, 06:17:34 PM
Of the three Quicksilvers here, the 1.67 and the 1.0 GHz models are both running under the exact same firmware. (Should be up to date / the last & latest.) Only difference is the “Software Bundle” noted as 694-4587… whereas these two are SB 694-4682. AND neither of these have HDs larger than 120 GB. Haven’t the time to slap another larger drive into either of them at present… but I’d guess that AlphaMac simply might not have partitioned his 250 GB drive accordingly?

[The third QS here is the 867 MHz model with an “A” board and presently it doesn’t want to boot OS 9. (So I’m thinking of setting it on fire).] :o Its’ currrent firmware version is 4.2.5f1

Did OWC provide an IDE to SSD “bridge”. (From AlphaMac’s internal pic above.) If so, is there a jumper selection/setting for Master-Slave on that bridge or is it “cable select”? On a QS if you want to add a second drive on that same ribbon cable.… it’s “Master-Slave”. If the second drive is a "traditional" platter SATA (with available jumper settings already on it) then you might not require such settings on zee bridge.

Someone was asking about bridges and I mentioned the Kingwin ADP-06 but the “other one” (that I could not remember at the time) is the Addonics - ADSAIDE (“SATA-IDE/ATAPI Converter”). A bit pricier but it does have the jumper options for Master - Slave - Cable Select.

AND just saw this one mentioned by rpschultz13 & refinery - which looks like the Addonics but slightly less expensive: https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Drive-Optical-Adapter-Converter/dp/B00EOJNGC2/ref=sr_1_3
Title: Re: upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
Post by: FdB on April 10, 2019, 06:29:08 PM
SEE: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4865.msg35421.html#msg35421
Title: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FdB on April 10, 2019, 06:40:04 PM
Maybe it is time to combine the three currently active Quicksilver users into one thread here?
 
AlphaMac
rpschultz13
part12studios

Especially concerning hardware, HD upgrades, etcetera. Hmmm? ;)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 10, 2019, 08:29:13 PM
(https://i0.wp.com/ep01.epimg.net/verne/imagenes/2017/07/06/articulo/1499348316_032426_1499348987_noticia_normal.jpg?resize=533%2C349&ssl=1)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 10, 2019, 09:12:46 PM
PSU fan is in. No resistor needed. It's very quiet with great air flow. This fan came with a rubber gasket that fits nicely against the steel case. I wouldn't be comfortable going with any less airflow.

I have a Hanna temperature gauge and measured the air out the back port at about 34°C. Seems safe.

If you have a Delta PSU it's a little more complicated to pull the case apart to get the fan in. If you don't care much about cosmetics I definitely recommend cutting out the metal grill. It's too close to the fan blades (making wind noise) and even adds some slight resistance to the rpm.


(https://i.imgur.com/rQnY1QC.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/jaypCQd.jpg)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: IIO on April 11, 2019, 12:36:01 AM
@IIO It's hard to find compatible PCI cards. I'll have to keep looking at snipe one where I can.

i know, same problem, here. i am currently looking for another one.
Title: Re: QS Firmware & SSD Bridges
Post by: IIO on April 11, 2019, 12:50:09 AM
but I’d guess that AlphaMac simply might not have partitioned his 250 GB drive accordingly?

we´re discussing this mystery since years and i can only repeat: i have never seen a 733 with 48 bit controller. or a 733 from a year other than 2001, for that matter. i also dont know of any ATA v.5 with 48 bit support.

and the best way to find it out is to mount a disk. if it shows up as only 128 gb are usable, it is most likely not something else causing this. :)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: part12studios on April 11, 2019, 02:23:54 AM
I just got a 867mhz unit.  What model fan is that?  I'm very interested in replacing mine with something quieter..  same with the SSD..  I'm using mine for music and I'd like to take down that Jet engine level noise down considerably. 

I don't know how to check firmware, but here are some stats that might help?

s/n
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t463l2zrkikgj9m/IMG_1198.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/t463l2zrkikgj9m/IMG_1198.JPG?dl=0)

no FW800
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycobyfewjffieyj/IMG_1200.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycobyfewjffieyj/IMG_1200.JPG?dl=0)

came with OSX
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ifqfzfsxwdx2bs/IMG_1216.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ifqfzfsxwdx2bs/IMG_1216.JPG?dl=0)

more details
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4gfixmdzupm173/IMG_1217.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4gfixmdzupm173/IMG_1217.JPG?dl=0)

hdd details
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ebtgpkmv725g8x7/IMG_1218.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ebtgpkmv725g8x7/IMG_1218.JPG?dl=0)


On a side note, is there a quiet fan for a G4 Sawtooth 450mhz?   the fan noise is strong with this one as well..


Thanks,
Caleb
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 11, 2019, 09:30:35 AM
@DieHard @FdB  I reinstalled OS9 with a CD boot and when I partitioned the OWC SSD drive into five parts it only read 128GB. Externally on the firewire port I can read larger drives.

@IIO We're discussing the 800mhz that I purchased. I'm plan to rebuild the 733mhz next and might switch out the board with a faster chip if that's possible.

@part12studios Noiseblocker M8-3 NB-Multiframe. See the specs on post #56. I have x2 DSP PCI cards that add some heat so I went with the M8-3 for airflow. I figured if it was too fast I could add a resistor to slow it down, but this fan was perfect for my purpose. It's only a few feet away and very comfortable for long editing hours. The problem now is that I hear all the other fans in my studio from the audio interfaces and vintage gear.

If you have a stock QS with a SSD you might consider stepping down to a M8-2 if your goal is to make it as quite as possible (without sacrificing too much airflow).

------

I had an old broken LaCie USB drive in the closet and cracked it open. It had a Seagate HDD with an internal SATA connector. So yesterday I picked up a Kingston 120GB SSD at a local store and installed it in the enclosure. It didn't mount at first and was not recognized by the Drive Setup app. Then after a few minutes it mounted but the Drive Setup app still says 'unsupported drive' so I'm not able to partition it, but it still mounts. It's just a temporary transfer/backup drive for now.

(https://i.imgur.com/2H3mjsA.jpg)
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: FdB on April 11, 2019, 11:47:42 AM
Here we go again… (see above post)

Looking ‘round here AGAIN for the 4.33f2 QS Firmware/ROM updater for those currently in the Quicksilver realm and still cannot find my source.

I’ve found a version 4.48 (for MDDs only) and a version 4.28 for Sawteeth and QS’s wishing to install a NEWERTECH MAXPower G4 processor… but no 4.33f2.

From where does version 4.33f2 originate? Hmm?
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: part12studios on April 11, 2019, 12:04:47 PM
yea i'm just doing audio and i don't think i'm going to be pushing the CPU super hard all the time..  so quieter over air flow is reasonable.. i don't do long sessions either.. computer is on rarely more than an hour or two at a time and that might be once a week.. most sessions are an hour or less..

i have other things that make some 60hz hum.. but yea by far the computer is the biggest noise generator in the studio.  The only thing louder than the fan is the hard drive being accessed.. you can hear those heads moving / writing stuff..  when recording audio..  I'd like SSD to eliminate that. 
Title: Quicksilver Comparison Specs...
Post by: FdB on April 11, 2019, 12:06:41 PM
Comparing the "stock" 733 MHz to the "other" Quicksilvers....
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 11, 2019, 01:35:19 PM
 ok so firmware answer you gave (this is sitll a quicksilver specific question) where can i find the firmware update 4.33f2? 

I googled it and wasn't coming up with a clear link to something to download. 

I've never done a mac firmware update so i'm not sure if it's different than PCs... like Dells just had an EXE you'd run and it would reboot and do the firmware update.  I image apple made it pretty easy to do too. 
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: part12studios on April 11, 2019, 01:36:33 PM
ditto.. same situation.  looking for that 4.33f2 firmware as mine is older. 
Title: Re: upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
Post by: part12studios on April 11, 2019, 01:42:18 PM
i saw those $30 models on ebay and such.. but i found this one too:

https://www.amazon.com/Kingwin-Adapter-Convert-Devices-Compatible/dp/B002SZDOM6/ref=asc_df_B002SZDOM6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309776868400&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7310608804789218877&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001949&hvtargid=pla-593018002274&psc=1#customerReviews

$10 a pop.. I need a couple, so that's a big savings.. any idea of this would work as well? 
Title: Re: upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
Post by: part12studios on April 11, 2019, 01:44:04 PM
wow even this one for $5... free shipping..  but i suspect based on the pic with this one, it's for a 2.5" IDE HDD.. not a full sized one. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-HDD-Hard-Drive-DVD-PATA-IDE-TO-Serial-ATA-SATA-Interface-Adapter-Converter/272184686343?epid=1139547428&hash=item3f5f78b707:g:Mk4AAOSw1x1URGv2

Title: Re: upgrading a quicksilver mac questions . CPU and HDD Interface?
Post by: FdB on April 11, 2019, 02:17:22 PM
That Kingwin ADP-06 bridge/converter (the first one mentioned above) works well. I've 2 or 3 of them in various machines / enclosures. However there is some question as to their use in a Quicksilver - where one must designate / assign the Master & Slave relationship (via jumper settings on the bridge - or the HD... in most cases) on that HD ribbon cable for having two drives present.

Say you want to use an SSD as your boot drive with your OS and other applications/software present there... and then you'd like to also have another drive in that second position on that same ribbon cable for music / etc. / file writes? The ADP-06 does not provide a jumper setting option. BUT with some SSDs and even some "platter" SATA drives they often have jumper settings on the drives themselves. So it depends... and this is why I mentioned the more expensive Addonics as that jumper setting option is provided on them. No worries.

rpschultz13 & refinery noted another (similar to the Addonics) yesterday for just under $20.00.

If no one else can say for certain about the ADP-06 concern in the Master/Slave scenario mentioned here, maybe I can re-visit (test it) again this weekend and get back to you. I seem to remember that there was a problem. But if you're only going to want one drive, go for the ADP-06 type. They're cheap and they do work.
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: FdB on April 11, 2019, 02:21:02 PM
Again, I am looking. Hopefully someone will respond with the answer that we seek.
If not, it looks like a possible "Quicksilver weekend" on tap here. ;)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FdB on April 11, 2019, 02:25:24 PM
Well, I've got an 867MHz Quicksilver ("A"-type board) here that is not wanting to boot OS 9.2.2.
So with some OS updating on-tap this weekend, maybe that firmware update with miraculously
rear its' head/source?
Title: Re: Quicksilver Comparison Specs...
Post by: IIO on April 11, 2019, 03:42:09 PM
Comparing the "stock" 7.33 MHz to the "other" Quicksilvers....

i dont know. however there there must be more models than all these websites show, because you can find many people claming that their 733 or their dual 800 (2001) would allow bigger disks.
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: refinery on April 11, 2019, 04:34:27 PM
apple used to have a page with all the firmware updates for each model on it.... i will try to find it.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 11, 2019, 09:02:20 PM
Where can I check on the board for what version it is?  Is it pretty easy to spot somewhere?  I think I have a revision A board based on this picture.. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aeiawa7vuokykan/IMG_1310.JPG?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/aeiawa7vuokykan/IMG_1310.JPG?dl=0)

Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FdB on April 11, 2019, 10:18:57 PM
Where can I check on the board for what version it is?  Is it pretty easy to spot somewhere?  I think I have a revision A board based on this picture...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,4905.msg35367.html#msg35367
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: IIO on April 12, 2019, 01:48:43 AM
u know whats weird, fury? the picture you posted shows the 933 having an "ATA 5" controller.

but according to the ATA specs, there should not be a standard prior to v6 having an 48 bit controller.

which the 933 has.

i bet this is some apple trickery which is causing the confusion here.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 12, 2019, 05:10:43 AM
i went through my profiler category by category and i didn't see where a mother board version was shown in the various fields.  is it hidden inside some s/n or other value?

Thanks,
Caleb
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FdB on April 12, 2019, 07:47:01 AM
Have yet to test the “larger HD” claims of the QS “B” boards but did test various OS installs on the 867 MHZ QS with the “A” board, hoping that some OS X install or version of OS 9 to OS 9.2.2 would somehow provide that Firmware Update. No-go.

In the past, have seen references to other FU installers but now cannot locate a 4.3.3f2 version updater - BUT have found and updated to other FU versions in the past (mostly for Sonnet and Newertech processor upgrades) and do remember the old Apple page listing various FUs. [Thanks refinery… still looking for that here as well. Hope it is eventually found.]

After all the various OS test installs here last night with the original “A” board in place…  and only after finally installing a “B” board… did Firmware Version 4.3.3f2 actually make its’ appearance. I even tested with various 867 MHz processors.

Now, there is a very stable 867 MHz Quicksilver with 80 GB HD running OS 10.4 & OS 9.2.2 with an 867 processor manufactured in Singapore. (An earlier 867 processor - made in the US - was somewhat unstable in comparison.) Large HD tests - this weekend.

Currently… while the A or B boards are not specifically referenced in the Apple System Profiler or under the Hardware Overview in OS X on the QS - it’s probably a safe bet to assume that Firmware Version 4.2.5f1 signifies an A board while a Firmware Version 4.3.3f2 would clue one that a B board is present.

part12studios: perhaps it’s best & easiest just to look on the board for that A/B I.D. You’ve already found where that’s located. And those images I posted of the “white-tagged” 800 MHz DP QS… actually that's a 1 GHz DP processor. But it is on a “B” board.

Yes IIO, there were other Quicksilver “flavors” omitted from those two comparison images, earlier copy-pasted from everymac.com. https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/index-powermac-g4.html I was too lazy to provide them all.

AND that earlier image posted from Wikipedia showing the 933 with an ATA 5 controller… well it is from Wikipedia and subject to perpetual and possible correction… but, if this 867 QS now with a “B” board (with ATA 5 controller) does recognize larger drives…?

Well, there’s always a bit of possible trickery (and resultant confusion) to contend with, ehh? ???

Yup… weird.
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: FdB on April 12, 2019, 07:48:42 AM
Thanks again refinery. Still looking, here. ;)
Title: Quicksilver / DA power supply
Post by: mikeyy00 on April 12, 2019, 08:43:37 AM
Hi all,

Recently acquired a 533mhz Digital Audio model locally for almost free. Got it home, cleaned it up. Moved some parts over from my Sawtooth..and she dead.

Of course I didn't test it ahead of time.. doh.

I have extensive experience troubleshooting PC hardware, and to a lesser extent, Mac. It seems like the power supply is toast. I get no power, no clicks, no fans, no lights. Popping off the ATX style connector and shorting the green pin to ground doesn't turn it on either.

Does anyone know if there's a known easy fix for bad power supplies? i.e. a Fuse, a known IC that "always goes bad on those models"? I popped the cover off of the PSU looking for a fuse, but it's pretty damn cramped inside, and looks to be quite the process if I remove everything to troubleshoot.

I did try popping my sawtooth powersupply in. Judging by the pinout should really be the same minus the 28v support for ADC. There was a purple line on the powersupply that isn't populated on the DA.. other than that, it's the same pinout (minus the 28V stuff.. which I doubt would prevent it from turning on). It's doesn't do anything either. Shorting the green pin does cause the fan to spin, and I get a red light on the Logic board.. but no life.

So, I've ordered a logic board from ebay.. surprisingly cheap. However the power supplies, holy hell. They're going for $150-200. Long story short, does anyone know how to repair an existing power supply? Or perhaps have a line on a DA/Quicksilver one they'd like to sell me for a reasonable price?
Title: Re: Quicksilver / DA power supply
Post by: mikeyy00 on April 12, 2019, 09:18:27 AM
Looks like I need to also cut the grey wire, and add 3.3v to that if using a Sawtooth PSU.

Will try later tonight.. but if anyone has any tips for repairing the original I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 12, 2019, 10:30:47 AM
yea good point about firmware indicating version..   so why would i need the firmware update?  what is improved?  No one seems to have it, which is a shame, but i figure if it's just allowing over 128gb drives that's no biggie because i have no problem with a 120gb.. which is already 40gb more than my other G4..  and i've barely scratched the surface of those drives with the songs I've recorded so far.. 

it's like my Amiga 1200 days when I had a 300mb hd.. man i NEVER could fill that thing up..  well wait.. i still have that Amiga in the studio.. and yea.. still not full.. :)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: ovalking on April 12, 2019, 12:07:44 PM
For info, my Quicksilvers...

733: board 820-1276A, Boot ROM 4.2.1f2, original 40G HD
933: board 820-1342B, Boot ROM 4.3.3f2, 160G PATA HD which shows as 128G!

Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: Lehnartz on April 12, 2019, 02:49:20 PM
Another Newbie here who is enjoying and following this thread.  I will be picking up a 2002 Quicksilver PowerMac G4  933 MHZ I just got on ebay this coming Monday and thus will be embarking on the same journey you are on in the coming weeks.  It was a “local pickup” only which is probably the reason it was available for the price it was. It has everything but the box; original monitor (17 inch Studio Display), keyboard, mouse, manuals AND install CD’s still in their bag (though I’ll probably be attempting to use the Universal OS9 first -- don’t really want OSX at all).

I will be putting into it a 250GB OWC Mercury Pro Legacy 3.5-inch IDE/ATA SSD (which I’ll partition as DieHard suggests -- 120GB for OS volume, 130 GB data volume), 1.5 Gigs of Ram, and a new PU and chassis fan.

Here is a page of someone who upgraded the fans on his Quicksilver and documented it in good detail (including photos). I though you might find it interesting.

http://www.thorburn.se/henrik/quicksilver/index.html

He decided to turn around the chassis fan so that it sucked air inward instead of discharging it. His logic being that, in his estimate, this fan was barley needed with his PCI slots unoccupied and with two other fans blowing air outward (the power unit fan and the heat-sink/CPU fan) the system would be better served with at least one fan bringing more air into the case.

I wonder what the experienced modders on this forum have to say about this concept?

Anyway, I’ll continue to follow your progress and I hope you keep sharing it.  I will most likely be chiming in with more questions of my own soon.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: Lehnartz on April 12, 2019, 03:01:45 PM
Sorry, one mistake  -  The CPU/heat-sink fan brings air in.  His configuration is having two fans bringing cool air in (the CPU and chassis fans) and one taking hot air out (the power unit fan).
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: refinery on April 12, 2019, 03:20:00 PM
found it.

though according to the doc, there's no update for it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080418104426/http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117


is it possible these are just small firmware variations to account for the different IDE controller on the later machines?
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: GaryN on April 12, 2019, 03:28:41 PM
I think most / all the old updates are HERE:  https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops

They start with newer stuff but you can keep adding more results and slowly work your way back in time.
Title: Re: Quicksilver / DA power supply
Post by: GaryN on April 12, 2019, 03:32:31 PM
So, I've ordered a logic board from ebay.. surprisingly cheap. However the power supplies, holy hell. They're going for $150-200. Long story short, does anyone know how to repair an existing power supply? Or perhaps have a line on a DA/Quicksilver one they'd like to sell me for a reasonable price?
This guy does good work and will rebuild your POS PSU for under $100

https://www.ebay.com/str/baltimora2000?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 12, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US (https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US)
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: refinery on April 12, 2019, 04:01:06 PM
https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US (https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US)

not the right update:
Quote
Note: Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver) computers do not require this update.
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: refinery on April 12, 2019, 04:03:21 PM
I think most / all the old updates are HERE:  https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops

They start with newer stuff but you can keep adding more results and slowly work your way back in time.

yeah looking through that page the only updates available for quicksilver models relate to hard drive firmware and optical disk burners.
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 12, 2019, 08:18:07 PM
@part12studios If you're not using it more than a few hours at time you could step down to quieter fans with a little less CFM. The Noctua NF-A8 FLX is a good fan to explore at 29.7CFM. The SilenX too. I don't recommend going far below 30CFM for the PSU fan. Anything below 25CFM would be slowly cooking components. For the drive a SSD is a no brainer.

@Lehnartz I'm not sure what the point of reversing the airflow on the case fan is. The first thing that came to mind — being that it's the largest opening on the case — is that it would suck a lot of dust into the unit. Secondly, obstructing the suction side of the fan will create more noise, whereas obstructing the blowing side of the fan only slows the fan down a bit with no noise increase. Below is video.

https://streamable.com/tbe9b

I had a bunch of mod ideas when I started but realized the airflow direction is already optimized. So my goal became getting everything out of the way for air to flow as freely as possible. What helped a lot was enlarging the holes, eliminating the steel fan case, cutting out the steel PSU grill and the fan's rubber mounts. Each step reducing some noise. When you add it up it makes a big difference. The only mod I'm considering on my 733mhz is putting the PSU fan on the rear case, so it's outside of the PSU case — pushing air into the case and out through the rear port. This would keep a lot more noise inside the box.

I'm still amazed that this forum exists with new users joining. Before I joined I thought I was the only person in the world still running a G4 on OS9.

-AlphaMac

Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: AlphaMac on April 12, 2019, 08:38:31 PM
I did a manual temperature log test today. I had the sensor right up against the back PSU port and made periodic observations. For what it's worth..

(https://i.imgur.com/IW5hqiY.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZfCR6m5.png)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2019, 04:49:30 AM
For info, my Quicksilvers...
933: board 820-1342B, Boot ROM 4.3.3f2, 160G PATA HD which shows as 128G!

weird.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: IIO on April 13, 2019, 04:58:38 AM
Well, there’s always a bit of possible trickery (and resultant confusion) to contend with, ehh? ???

i always thought that the dual 1.0 was the only machine with 2 possible controllers (and that you can tell it from the serialnumber on the back.)

the whole topic is probably a bit uncovered because many people still use the original disc instead of putting a proper later model inside, which is bigger than 120 and, for what its worth, quiet. :)
Title: Re: 2001 G4 QuickSilver 733Mhz Restoration
Post by: Lehnartz on April 13, 2019, 07:51:24 AM
Wow!  Thanks @AlphaMac.  You made your point quite well.  That video in particular demonstrates why flipping the fan would be a bad idea.  I will keep to the original configuration.

I will be putting in the exact same power unit fan as you, the Noiseblocker NB-Multiframe M8-3 80x80x25mm.  For the chassis fan I will use a Silenx IXP7618 iXtrema Pro Fan which although thicker than most fans should still fit in the fan bracket (the specs indicate it should work -- the fan is 38mm thick and the fan bracket is 44mm deep.

Unlike you, and largely for the sake of simplicity, I do plan on using the fan bracket but I will cut out the grill as well as enlarge the holes on the case-plate on the other side just as you did (thanks for the tips). The Silenx I'll be using does not have openings in the corners of it chassis the way the Noiseblocker you used does. Because of this, nowhere near as much air will get blown inside the fan bracket so I am thinking (hoping) the noise effect of using the bracket should be less sever.  Plus its a quieter fan to begin with.

I am wondering what your thoughts are on tweaking the intake system of the CPU/heatsink? I know some people have covered the elongated oval slot in the top of the rubber holder with a piece of duct tape. On the page of Quicksilver mods I linked to in previous post the man stated that "the fan is not attached directly to the metal casing, but rather onto a rubber thingy. The problem with this rubber holder is that it does not cover the fan completely, so the air is not taken from the outside, but from the inside instead. Rather stupid construction, but easily fixed".

His fix was to cover not only the slot on top but the sides as well using some kind of rubber or foam, thus ensuring that more of the intake air came from outside the case.  While this makes sense in theory I am wondering if their was a reason behind the design, in particular the oval slot on top, and I am a little reluctant to do this.

http://www.thorburn.se/henrik/quicksilver/images/IMG_1017.jpg


One quick question for you or anyone else who wants to chime in.  I have read several places to be very careful when dealing with the power unit because of the stored voltage in it. What techniques or precautions do I need to exercise to change its fan safely?

Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 13, 2019, 01:18:34 PM
Maybe it is time to combine the three currently active Quicksilver users into one thread here?
 
AlphaMac
rpschultz13
part12studios

Especially concerning hardware, HD upgrades, etcetera. Hmmm? ;)

All the QS post that lately were here are united now HERE
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 13, 2019, 01:37:21 PM
yea good point about the IDE jumper pin scenarios..  I see your point and yes in that case it would be worthwhile for the more expensive option because of those features.  I'll have to double check.  i'm pretty sure that there are two IDE cards on my G4 sawtooth?  I have two hard drives in my system and i'm pretty sure each has it's own dedicated ribbon..   so i could probably get away with no needing the master / slave stuff.. but still for the future maybe that will be needed..   but yea i'd love to have two SSDs..  one for the system and one for recording audio too..  although i doubt access time with ssd will be much of an issue and maybe just get away with one 120gb drive..
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 13, 2019, 02:12:10 PM
Hey boys look at this quicksilver pump!

A Nasa engineer talkin about fan intake vs exhale QS

http://powerpcliberation.blogspot.com/2014/10/power-mac-g4-cooling-project-phase-3.html (http://powerpcliberation.blogspot.com/2014/10/power-mac-g4-cooling-project-phase-3.html)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FdB on April 13, 2019, 02:23:56 PM
Hey boys look at this quicksilver pump!
A Nasa engineer talkin about fan intake vs exhale QS

AbFab! All the way back from 2014. Great info.

Wonder if fiftysixk knows urdvurk and his efforts with the MDD?
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3405.0.html

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5458/30855921855_847b1aabc2_b.jpg)
Title: Re: QS Firmware/ROM updater
Post by: FdB on April 13, 2019, 02:38:18 PM
I think most / all the old updates are HERE:  https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops
They start with newer stuff but you can keep adding more results and slowly work your way back in time.
yeah looking through that page the only updates available for quicksilver models relate to hard drive firmware and optical disk burners.

https://support.apple.com/downloads/macdesktops

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

https://web.archive.org/web/20080418104426/http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86117

Thanks to refinery, GaryN and Protools5LEGuy for the Firmware / ROM updater sources. (Now all bookmarked!)

"Note: Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver) computers do not require this update".

*While the Power Mac G4 Firmware Update 4.2.8 is not noted as necessary for the QS, it is provided with (and was recommended) with the NewerTech MAXPower G4 processor upgrades for the QS and the Sawtooth. And… as the QS “A” boards shipped with the 4.2.5f1 Firmware, this might explain the need for that 4.2.8 Update for use with those NewerTech processor upgrades?

AND as the QS “B” boards have 4.33f2 Firmware… perhaps why I’ve had no success installing that NewerTech processor on a QS with a “B” board. [This begs the question(s) as to whether or not the the QS 4.33f2 can be downgraded  to the 4.2.8 firmware… or if it should even necessary with the “B” boards anyway?]

Eventually I’ll place an “A” board back into the 867 MHz QS and then attempt the 4.2.8 Firmware Update AND the installation of the NewerTech again. Seems that I now remember something of a sh*tstorm, surrounding the 4.28 update with the QS from all those many years ago. MAYBE it was due to the A vs. B boards and the individual firmware of each?

In the now-infamous words of IIO… “seems weird”.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: IIO on April 14, 2019, 09:20:27 PM

soon i will just claim that everything dont understand or i dont know much about would be "wrong".

it is because i am getting older (which is really weird).
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 15, 2019, 09:10:25 AM
Hey sorry if this is somewhat of a duplicate question, but amongst this thread which is a wall of amazing information, I can't seem to find the specific model of fan i should get that would be the quietest..  maybe it's on another thread, but i thought it was in here.  I remember it was roughly $35 or so.  I ordered the IDE / SATA adapter and SSD, just need the fan to order.

I'm in a music studio.. i'm replacing the HDD with a SSD so that will cut down some noise, but the fan is also a good noise generator as well so I'm looking for the quietest option.  If i can do any other mods to the case to help reduce sound I'm open to that as well.

Are there any other fans in the system?  I'm at work right now.  Does the PSU itself have a fan that I should be concerned about upgrading to reduce sound as well or just the one big system fan? 

Thanks,
Caleb
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 15, 2019, 10:43:14 AM
Ok thanks for the message! so the noiseblocker sounds like the item I want to get..  and its a 1:1 swap?  I'm going to see if any local stores carry it and if not i see some online options for less than $20.. 

if someone has another super quiet fan with the 80x80x25mm dimensions..  2200rpm (no lower, as i guess 2200 might not be ideal).. any other factors i should be concerned with like pin connector compatibility or power/draw? 
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Lehnartz on April 16, 2019, 01:48:45 PM
Well here is the new baby......


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0U3wh2dSiYiP0lQRSvzBGelMsau6j6Op1Diu6M5Xw4vy1BbQXbN5nYgHBjCsaYeQ29kxBQAfCSCplRErCxbpV7VIH78Hwr6VbkAMcIuiznhOMpDFzCA-O-zlq5GEZTTEf2wcWqpOlA=w800)


2002 Apple Power Macintosh G4 933MHz with 17 inch Apple Studio monitor, Pro Keyboard, Pro Mouse and all the original install discs.

Specs
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_933_qs.html (https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_933_qs.html)

I think the whole package was worth the $150 and 3 hour round-trip drive into New Hampshire.  She is in pristine condition -- barley a scratch on the outside and very little dust inside.  Everything works and she's not outrageously loud or hot.  The previous owner used it for video editing which is why it came with Final Cut Pro and the special Contour mouse which I’ve gathered can be used for FCP or Steinberg Nuendo (OSX only so won’t be much use to me).  Based on the condition of this computer I doubt it's been used all that much. Nothing looks upgraded inside, it all looks stock.

I plan on using this machine for audio not video.

A bit of background...

About a year ago they were cleaning out the attic at work and I was told everything was up for grabs.  In the corner, collecting dust amidst the cobwebs, was an old iMac G3.   Looking at it I had a sudden vision that there must be a robust group of geeky enthusiasts that still use these things, and share software and tips online.

I took it home and within an hour of Googling a large smile came over my face when I found this and similar sites, “Ah, ha......I knew it.....I knew it....I knew it”, I thought to myself.

But that is just how I got introduced. The addiction to OS9 didn’t start till I got the thing up and running with a clean install.  At first I was wondering if I was imagining things.  “Is everything really opening and happening this fast”, I thought to myself.  I installed more CPU intensive programs like Reason 2.5.  The performance of OS9 astounded me.  Is this 15+ year old computer running 15+ year old software really faster than today's computers running today's software?  Why are book-sized PDFs that would take a noticeable amount of time to open on my late-model Mac Book Pro opening instantaneously?  Have computers relative to their software been getting slower for the past 15 years? Has everyone in Silicon Valley lost their freakin’ minds?  Am I losing my mind?

I am now completely hooked to the blazing speed and performance of OS9.  When I loaded the new Quicksilver yesterday it booted into OSX.  A feeling of dread came over me.  I played around with it for all of 5 minutes and I was done -- I needed to get back to my happy place.  I quickly rebooted the machine into OS9 and a great big sigh of relief and feeling of calm came over me as it loaded with the familiar mac icon and sound.  There is was......OS9...... as simple and fast as ever.

Over the coming weeks I’ll be upgrading this Quicksilver and documenting it here.  I will have a bunch of questions along the way.  I am extremely thankful for this site and all the super helpful members who are always quick to lend a hand.


Here’s what I’ll be putting into the Quicksilver......


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/T2dEUPmYWYscypQtfWGZ2B41QTGfyoC3Kqv42rri129ERhwWnxOmTKKYOmXnZrGkgHzcMfGwpxmgCyCODFMdksa5Bjm6ye8zy650HTFpWNTlENH0bT1GzmXo4sPwLwczrrGiAyLfzg=w800)


New PSU Fan
Noiseblocker NB-Multiframe M8-3,  80x80x25mm Fan (used but tested)
2200rpm
34.73 CFM Airflow
19.2 dBA


New Case Fan
Silenx IXP7618 iXtrema Pro Fan, SKU: IXP-76-18, 120 x 120 x 38 mm, Operating Voltage: 8-14v, Current Draw: 0.24A Power Consumption: 2.88w Bearings Type: Fluid Dynamic Bearings
1400 RPM
90 CFM Airflow
18 dBA


New SSD Hardrive
250GB OWC Mercury Pro Legacy 3.5-inch IDE/ATA Solid-State Drive Kit.
 I’ll create two equal size 120G partitions - one for system and one for storage.


New 1.5 K Ram (The maximum)
1.5GB KIT 3X 512MB PC133 APPLE Power Mac G4 Power Macintosh G4 M8493 MEMORY RAM


New NewerTech 3.6V PRAM Battery


New Thermal Paste under for Heatsink
Arctic Cooling ACTC-MX4 Thermal Compound Paste Grease 4Grams MX-
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Lehnartz on April 16, 2019, 02:18:09 PM
@part12studios

Did you see the very handy PSU fan and Case fan lists that @AlphaMac posted earlier in this thread. They are now on page 1 of this combined Quicksilver thread.  They should give you all the info you need in replacing either of these fans  -- even gives you specs of the stock fans in the Quicksilver.

One thing I've read, posted either in this thread or another, is that you don't want to go any lower than 30 CFM for the PSU fan or you'll be slowly cooking your machine. 

Using AlphaMacs lists, you can find fans that match or exceed the CFM of the stock fans yet are quieter (lower dBA).
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on April 16, 2019, 04:30:42 PM
yes indeed i did!  FdB got me on the straight and narrow..  i ordered one of those cheap IDE / SATA adapters because I'm good with a single SSD 120gb for my needs for the time being..  and I can vouch for how well they do/don't work for future generations! =D

Yea so I'm keeping it simple.. I ordered one of those quiet fans...  and for now i'm going to stop there for noise reduction..  i also ordered a ton of sound reduction foam squares to line my studio..  once those are in place I'll assess how much i care about any residual noise my machine might make..

now just waiting for the mail man to bring the goodies home.. 

I'm still trying to figure out though..  is it easy to upgrade an 867mhz G4..  and if it is, exactly what part(s) am i replacing.. is it popping out once CPU and sticking in another or is it more like a board upgrade? 
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Ninester on April 18, 2019, 09:54:45 AM
Why stuff many drives or one big drive with many partitions in one basket..so to speak?

A Samsung 128G to ide card as Boot and a few mission critical audio apps. The price / performance ratio compared to OWC would be hard to beat?  All my data drives would be outboard via Firewire or PC card of choice compatible with OS 9. My thoughts are based on cheap usb3 outboard drives via pci cards. Cost and availability for the QS and the like, I have not researched but had used a usb card with my old B&W 300. As on my main PC desktop, all data drives can be removed, stored, and backed up when needed.  Puting all drives in one box is easier, but have learned that when one BIG drive fails...

My thoroughly baked "rescue" QS-DP runs very well now that dust and frozen fans have been blown out. All closed up, she runs breezy and warm.  From all the post scattered here and there old "Chernobyl" is not alone. When I want my QS to run quiet, I open the side door and use a small low speed box fan blowing directly across the DP heat sinks. Very quiet, effective..and cheap...SILENCE..i kill you!
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: DieHard on April 18, 2019, 10:12:51 AM
Quote
But that is just how I got introduced. The addiction to OS9 didn’t start till I got the thing up and running with a clean install.  At first I was wondering if I was imagining things.  “Is everything really opening and happening this fast”, I thought to myself.  I installed more CPU intensive programs like Reason 2.5.  The performance of OS9 astounded me.  Is this 15+ year old computer running 15+ year old software really faster than today's computers running today's software?  Why are book-sized PDFs that would take a noticeable amount of time to open on my late-model Mac Book Pro opening instantaneously?  Have computers relative to their software been getting slower for the past 15 years? Has everyone in Silicon Valley lost their freakin’ minds?  Am I losing my mind?

I am now completely hooked to the blazing speed and performance of OS9.  When I loaded the new Quicksilver yesterday it booted into OSX.  A feeling of dread came over me.  I played around with it for all of 5 minutes and I was done -- I needed to get back to my happy place.  I quickly rebooted the machine into OS9 and a great big sigh of relief and feeling of calm came over me as it loaded with the familiar mac icon and sound.  There is was......OS9...... as simple and fast as ever.

Many of us share your vision and observations...

From the original site (before the forum), in the early days... when it was just myself, Mactron, and a few core users
Quote
It feels fast... without a pretty, translucent GUI running over a Unix-based kernel there is nothing to slow OS 9 down. You click around and things actually happen, in real time, with no OS X spinning wheels or Windows circles to keep you guessing. For audio recording enthusiasts, many hardware interfaces with ASIO2 drivers yield an experience close to zero latency when playing virtual synths or drum machines. There are graphic artists, publishers, and writers that claim they can create projects faster with OS 9 because it "thinks" the way they do; they focus on one or two things (applications) at a time and see them to completion. It is true that the "pre-emptive multitasking" advantage present in OS X can be illustrated by downloading CD-ROM ISOs and rendering chaos theory formulas while simultaneously instant messaging and posting on FaceBook what you ate... but in reality, what did you create ?
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Lehnartz on April 21, 2019, 09:02:25 AM
I have a handful of questions maybe someone can help me out with.

My 2002 Quicksilver 933 MHz came with the complete restore discs that load up both OSX and OS9.  You can dual boot from either OS.

I’m am still trying to decide whether to use that configuration or load only OS 9 using Universal file from this site.


Question Set 1
Does the restore discs default duel boot setup in any way slow down the performance of OS9 when it is running (and I don’t mean in “Classic” mode, I mean when it is booted in OS9)?  In other words, would only having OS9 present on the hardrive keep things snappier for some reason?

Does having OSX present just slow down the initial loading a bit but then have no drag on the system once OS9 is fully loaded?

Are there other advantages to having OSX present on this machine that I should take into consideration?


Question Set 2
I have seen conflicting advise about how to best format the SSD drives I plan on installing into this computer -- OWC legacy SSD.  Some have stated that any SSD has to be formatted in OSX to be stable and function properly, even if it is OS9 you want to run on that drive. Is this true? Wouldn’t formatting it using Apple Drive Setup V2.1 on the Universal Install OS9.2 CD available here be just as good?

What is the best way to format the two SSDs I plan on putting into machine.  I plan on using two OWC Legacy SSD kits. I was hoping to configure them as such...

Master Drive - 250G
Partition 1 =   120 G  -   OS, Applications, VSTs (softsynths, effects, ect)
Partition 2 =   120 G  -   All Presets for DAWs and VSTs and MIDI files.

Slave Drive - 500G
Partition 1  =  120G -  Samples (Drums, Bass, 8Bit, FXs)
Partition 2  =  120G -  Samples (Synths, Keys, Guitar, Other Instruments)
Partition 3  =  120G -  Recorded Audio
Partition 4  =  120G -  DAW Project Files,
Partition 5 =     20G -  DAW and VST Manuals. 


If I am using the Universal Install OS9.2 Install CD available here which has Apple Drive Setup V2.1 can I do the partitioning of the Master Drive as the first part of the install process?

Oh and Happy Easter and Passover everybody!!!
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FdB on April 21, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
Universal OS 9 has latest/greatest updates and improvements over what might be on your original QS install discs. (Your original discs, circa 2002?)

Installing from original discs doesn’t set up separate partitions for OS X and OS 9 to reside upon... independently and “segregated”. (See possible problems / performance issues associated with OS 9 & OS X on the same single partition.)

Many maintain the advantage of having both systems “resident” in dual boot capacity (on separate partitions) for a number of reasons… installing OS 9 on the first boot partition and having X for other numerous reasons.

Have formatted SSDs in both ways mentioned, but have not determined if one way is better than the other. Whichever works best in your specific instance? Others may advise otherwise. Try both and see which works best for you and post your findings. Suppose that if you go OS 9 only, that maybe Drive Setup 2.1 might be best? <opinion

As for the SSD format / configuration questions and how best to partition the OWC Legacy SSDs. (Are there Master/Slave jumpers on these drives?) AND, the specific DAW related topics/questions, perhaps best answered by someone else here. (Invitation)

Yes, you should be able to use Drive Setup 2.1 to format / partition… unless it simply won’t recognize the drive(s) and allow such format / partitioning… in which case, you may be left with OS X’s drive setup.

Suppose much of this all really depends upon your choice to go all OS 9… or, w/ OS X also.

And a Happy Easter to you too (and all) as well.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Lehnartz on April 21, 2019, 11:21:46 AM

Thanks @FdB.

That steers me in the right direction. I will try the OS9 Universal and see how it goes.


 
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: IIO on April 24, 2019, 01:01:35 PM
max/msp says my 933 CPU would run at 55 degrees (celsius, that is)

is that okay?
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on July 11, 2019, 10:22:34 PM
those are some great stats to compare systems.  I'm happy to say the IDE bridge to SSD worked out really well.  I still need to install the quieter fan but it's not a high priority right now.  I have the part I just need to psyche myself up to get deeper into the machine to swap out fan and I imagine in the process replace the CPU thermal paste (which i have some from another repair job).  I'm going to stick with the 867mhz cpu.  It is showing more CPU headroom with plugins in Digital Performer 3 which was nice to see, but i wouldn't say it's as 1:1 in improvement moving from the 450mhz sawtooth.  feels like maybe 25% faster, but the cpu clock speed is almost twice as fast, but at the price I paid for it, it was still time/money well spent. 
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: DieHard on July 15, 2019, 01:36:54 PM
I imagine in the process replace the CPU thermal paste (which i have some from another repair job).  I'm going to stick with the 867mhz cpu.  It is showing more CPU headroom with plugins in Digital Performer 3 which was nice to see, but i wouldn't say it's as 1:1 in improvement moving from the 450mhz sawtooth.  feels like maybe 25% faster, but the cpu clock speed is almost twice as fast, but at the price I paid for it, it was still time/money well spent.

If you are going to arctic silver it; replace it with a 933 single or Dual 1 Ghz while you are at it :)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: part12studios on July 15, 2019, 01:48:58 PM
it's not just the CPU right? it's a board?  and does it have to come from a quicksilver to work? 

I see this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-Quicksilver-933-G4-933Mhz-CPU-820-1344-A-TESTED/233288174542?epid=1204738576&hash=item36510f0bce:g:CVwAAOSwlAZaVniR:sc:USPSPriority!02368!US!-1


but then the MDD board like this is 1ghz, but being that it's not from a quicksilver I imagine it doesn't work right?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-630T4386-1Ghz-G4-CPU-Processor-820-1497-A-630-4459-TESTED-FREE-SHIPPING/291973182109?epid=1007836547&hash=item43faf5329d:g:Zq0AAOSwEzxYUvKe


and this is a later model quicksilver I imagine and a bit more costly, but it's dual core which I understand does help vs a 1ghz single core?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/661-2591-CPU-Processor-Module-Power-Mac-G4-1Ghz-Dual-Quicksilver-2002-820-1324-A/273820635984?epid=1824570171&hash=item3fc0fb5350:g:plcAAOSwWm1cwPkz



the operation was mostly to replace the existing stock fan with one that's said to be quieter.  it's good enough for now which is why I've left well enough alone.  Replacing the HDD with an SSD was a big noise reducer, but the fan i still pretty noticeable. 

Caleb

Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on February 21, 2022, 03:37:46 PM
I am restarting this thread because it has a lot of useful information.
If you want me to start a new thread, just let me know.
I am trying to upgrade my Quicksilver 733 MHz, motherboard RevA.
Got the opportunity to buy a motherboard (RevA) with a dual 800 MHz.
Unfortunately, not working. Try it with a single CPU 800 MHz, OK. I suspected the dual CPU board was faulty...
Did not want to test on my original motherboard (733 MHz) so found a cheap motherboard RevB with a single CPU 800 MHz, working well.
Today received another dual CPU board 800 MHz, test it on the RevB, not working  >:(
I reset the PMU, but as soon as I put a dual CPU board, at startup, no sound or light on the power button. Fans and HD are working.
I should do something wrong, but what?
HELP  :-[
Title: Re: Quicksilver Comparison Specs...
Post by: DieHard on February 21, 2022, 04:10:37 PM
Comparing the "stock" 733 MHz to the "other" Quicksilvers....

OK, so it is important to remember that the stock "733" QS, as discussed here a few times, only had 256k "on chip" level 2 cache and no level 3 backside cache at all, which was really unheard of at the time. Even a 533 DA had 1 MB cache...

So it was not surprising that when used in a DAW environment, the 733 QS performed worse that the 533 DA !  It even felt unusually sluggish with graphic design apps also... the solution was obvious, you could take a CPU from a 733 DA (which had 1 MB of cache) and replace the QS 733 without any mods needed, of course, today, just find a cheap 933 QS CPU, you get 256k "on chip" level 2 cache, and 2 MB of DDR SDRAM level 3 backside cache. 

So the same machine will go from a geekbench of 372 to 550 (32% more power), most likely benefit even more in a DAW scenario since the cache directly impacts multi-track digital recording performance.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on February 21, 2022, 05:52:34 PM
DieHard,
I already use a 800 QS CPU which gives a good boost, but why is the dual 800 CPU not working?
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: GaryN on February 21, 2022, 09:49:10 PM
Got the opportunity to buy a motherboard (RevA) with a dual 800 MHz.
Unfortunately, not working. Try it with a single CPU 800 MHz, OK. I suspected the dual CPU board was faulty...
Did not want to test on my original motherboard (733 MHz) so found a cheap motherboard RevB with a single CPU 800 MHz, working well.
Today received another dual CPU board 800 MHz, test it on the RevB, not working  >:(
I reset the PMU, but as soon as I put a dual CPU board, at startup, no sound or light on the power button. Fans and HD are working.
I should do something wrong, but what?
HELP  :-[

Saw your identical query on Facebunk - came here to check something and here you were too… so anyway:

There's no normal reason for your issue. All three CPU daughterboards in the QS are directly swappable.

THEREFORE:

You have managed to buy not one but two bad CPU cards… OR
Something you did during the swap is causing the problem.*
  * The startup symptom is weird. Assuming you own a voltmeter - and you shouldn't be hacking on a 20-year-old computer without one - you should check the Supply output voltages when you startup. It sounds like there might be a 5v logic supply problem… the fans and HDD both run on 12V so maybe they could spin up without anything else…??

SO……


What OS are you trying to boot? OS9 requires a Multiprocessing extension to be active although I would think (dangerous) that the boot would start and fail a little farther along.

You didn't want to test the unknown "new" CPU card on your Rev A mother.
Did you also NOT test the Rev B mother with your know-to-be-good single 733 CPU?

You see where I'm going here??


20-year-old stuff from where… fleabay?
You can only test by trial-and-error  and you can only test one part at a time. Otherwise you're spitting into the wind………in the dark. You have not 1, not 2, but three unknown "foreign" components.

You must verify them one by one. Put the CPU cards on your Rev A mother. If they work, the Rev B is bad. Don't worry… almost nothing that go wrong on a CPU card without leaving a mark can be bad enough to actually damage the motherboard.

Holler back.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on February 22, 2022, 05:00:02 AM
Quote
There's no normal reason for your issue. All three CPU daughterboards in the QS are directly swappable.
Thanks for confirming this, I was not sure anymore.

Quote
The startup symptom is weird. Assuming you own a voltmeter - and you shouldn't be hacking on a 20-year-old computer without one - you should check the Supply output voltages when you startup. It sounds like there might be a 5v logic supply problem… the fans and HDD both run on 12V so maybe they could spin up without anything else…??
when waking up in the middle of the night 😳, I thought that the more probable answer to this double failure is the PSU that cannot provide the extra needed by the double cpu. I checked it before but I am going to do it again. Will probably not have time before Thursday 😡

Quote
What OS are you trying to boot?
Mac OS X for now but I do not even go up to that point.
To avoid other sources of problem, I have disconnected everything except fans. No video card, no RAM. With a single CPU board, I got the error sound as no ram is connected.
With the double CPU board, nothing.

Quote
20-year-old stuff from where… fleabay?
You can only test by trial-and-error  and you can only test one part at a time. Otherwise you're spitting into the wind………in the dark. You have not 1, not 2, but three unknown "foreign" components.
You must verify them one by one.

I actually have
Rev A with 733, original
Rev A with double 800
Rev B with 800
Double 800
I am not testing my original components, but, as you said, I have been doing trial and error with the others.
Rev A and B are ok with single 800
Rev A and B failed with both double 800.
That’s why I am going to test thoroughly the PSU voltage.
I’ll come back with the results in a couple of days.
Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on February 22, 2022, 07:10:11 AM
Actually it looks like the PSU is still pretty good…
Results are in green.

Then I tested with the single CPU 800 board.
Got the error signal, (no RAM)
P4 voltage 12.06
5volts at 5.20
CPU board at 12.05
Even if the dual CPU board is lowering the voltages a little bit, it is still within tolerance of 5%.
I was really hoping that it was a PSU problem. :o
I will try again with the RevA motherboard, but I am pretty sur I will got the same results.
Do I really have 2 faulty dual CPU boards???
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FBz on February 22, 2022, 08:13:16 AM
Yes, very odd that you might have two faulty Dual 800 CPUs. But as the dual 800’s might be just a bit more demanding (sensitive) of your RAM… maybe clean all contacts on the RAM sticks with electronics contact cleaner OR 91% isopropyl alcohol & a cotton swab and then retest.

On only one machine and one motherboard FIRST.

BUT you should also VERY CLOSELY examine all of the pins on the CPU daughter cards (and the motherboard socket that they snap into). Look for bent pins, dust bunnies and any sort of oxidation or corrosion.

I’ve never (yet) had to clean such CPU connector pins - but I might consider VERY CAREFULLY and LIGHTLY using a very soft toothbrush or even a small art paintbrush with the alcohol or electronics cleaner... IF all else fails. And this of course, at your very own risk.

I have found bent CPU connector pins before.

Closely examine ALL of the CPU’s connection pins that you’re testing.

•If no change after all of the above… then time to put on your Opti-visor magnifier and very closely inspect the daughter cards for signs of any onboard circuit failures.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on February 22, 2022, 08:54:42 AM
Thanks for the suggestions.
I had already look at the cpu daughter card small connectors. One was lightly out of position. I will anyway make another full control.
For the RAM, I am testing the board without any RAM in it, just trying to get the error sound at startup. I get it only with single CPU board, never with the dual CPU board. I will check anyway for any wrong aspect.

I am going definitively to check the daughter card for any defect.
Any hint on which component is usually faulty?
Any logical diagram of such cards available?
Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FBz on February 22, 2022, 10:25:42 AM
Attached an image here of a QS DP 1GHz CPU that shows signs of overheating and failure of one of its’ processors. You may notice the darkened brown *burnt” area of the surround, on the left processor’s mount bed. This is definitely something to first look for on your Dual 800’s. (i.e. a baked chip)

As for the rest of the daughter card and other components… a very close visual inspection of everything is warranted… looking for signs of excessive heat on the board’s circuitry or failed, tiny individual components.

A logical diagram of the cards? None that I have… but search for one if you must.

Extremely close visual inspection is best, before going any further down the rabbit hole.

AND you might try testing all again (considering all that GaryN and DieHard have already mentioned here) and with at least one stick of RAM installed - in only the one chosen “test bed” machine.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: GaryN on February 22, 2022, 01:43:06 PM
I was really hoping that it was a PSU problem. :o
I will try again with the RevA motherboard, but I am pretty sur I will got the same results.
Do I really have 2 faulty dual CPU boards???

True story
I live in Napa, CA
Watching the news this morning, the weathergirlperson said "no rain today…not a chance"
5 minutes later I heard a tapping sound. I looked outside and it was raining and hailing to boot.
Just because something seems unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible.
That you don't want it to be true doesn't swing the odds in your favor one bit.

Yes, it's not only possible, but it's really looking like you've acquired two bad dual 800's.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on February 22, 2022, 03:07:02 PM
Thanks FBz.
I will only be able to put a picture tomorrow, but the thin plastic on top of the CPU holder, around it, has a couple of holes. The plastic has been torn or more probably overheated.
By the way, this plastic being at a level under the CPU, it is not in contact with the heatsink, so only cooled by the flow of air.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on February 23, 2022, 02:36:46 PM
Quote
I will only be able to put a picture tomorrow, but the thin plastic on top of the CPU holder, around it, has a couple of holes. The plastic has been torn or more probably overheated.
By the way, this plastic being at a level under the CPU, it is not in contact with the heatsink, so only cooled by the flow of air.
Here they are!
What's your opinion, torn or overheating?
I am not too concerned by this as the heatsink should not touch the electronic components, being at a higher level than the CPU.
Do you agree, should I protect these holes?
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: FBz on February 23, 2022, 04:53:53 PM
In spite of the plastic tears, that thing looks like it’s never even been warm.

Keep at it.
No success, send ‘em to me for more testing and close examination…

When and if necessary. ;)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on March 23, 2022, 12:21:11 PM


Back from a couple of weeks on a trip to Texas, here are the outcome of this story.
FBz was right to insist on contacts points and I was probably right to think that the probability of having 2 faulty dual CPU daughter board was quite low.
I am now running that QS 733 with a RevB board and a dual CPU 800.
After cleaning through the contact points, I got a startup chime but nothing more. Then after replacing the thermal paste, no startup chime anymore.
I then realize that if I pressed firmly on the heatsink on the top of the connector I got a full startup and then 100% startup success since.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4667.0;attach=9854)
But only with one the the 2 daughter board. One of them was actually faulty. I send it back to UsedMac and they sent another one, this time fully working with the L3 cache.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: lepidotos on April 13, 2022, 07:12:19 PM
Recently-ish (as of a few months ago) picked up a Quicksilver from a recycler's and it's doing pretty well, alright enough that I'm typing on it right now. It didn't come with a hard drive so I used the drive from my AGP Graphics, and it's pretty fast, but whenever I try to boot into Mac OS 9, it works... but then not long later it completely disables all inputs except moving the cursor. No keyboard, no mouse button. I know it happens afterward because I can close out some of the popup boxes telling me Kaleidoscope is being run as a trial. I've already tried disabling USB Overdrive, no dice there.
I still haven't figured out any idea why that's happening.
Anyway, I specifically bought this computer to eventually be as stupidly high spec as is "reasonable", overclocked to oblivion and parts added in as necessary. Will eventually take the plunge on a SeriTek SATA card, and have already bought two 7455s to replace the stock 7450s @ 800 (which I'll eventually try to replace with 7457s that may be in the early iBook G4s according to someone over on MacRumors) that I'll be aiming to run at about 1350 on a 150MHz bus. Already have my Radeon 9800 Pro installed and it's feeling the struggle with this 1080p panel I swapped in for the CRT just due to weight considerations on this plastic folding desk. However, at the same time, I'm used to 85Hz so that may just be the 60Hz locked refresh.
After all that's said and done, I'll probably use it to see how fast and usable MorphOS can be with hardware like that.
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Borgmac on April 25, 2022, 02:26:43 PM
Quicksilver Fans replacement

You’ll find hereafter some results of tests made with a QuickSilver 733 upgraded with a RevB board and a dual 800 CPU daughter board. Some test were made also on a QS Server with RevA and dual 800 CPU.

I know that a lot has been said by alphamac in his very interesting posts but he had additional cards creating more heat,  so he was looking for high flow, like 100 CFM for the case fan. In my case, I was looking mainly to reduce the noise and to replace the CPU fans for the dual CPU.

On both of these computers, CPU fans were not working anymore, speed was increasing a little bit, then slowing down and the T was increasing
With the 733 CPU, this was not an issue, reaching 41c after 1 hour.
But with the dual CPU, I reach 40c after 10 minutes

Here are the conclusions of my tests.
Temperatures were measured after 30 and 60 minutes of video conversion, using around 80% of the CPUs.

Best option for single and dual CPU is 2 Noctua Fans.
Very good option for high double CPU usage, a little bit cheaper, is Sanyo, higher flow  but more noisy.

Evercool, much cheaper is VERY noisy.
For the Case fan, the SY1225 is generating more noise than the CP fan. That is why I start looking for something quiet and choose the Noctua.

There was no obvious relation between the CPU Heatsink Temperature and the exhaust Case Fan Temperature
Exhaust 27-28c with CPU 40c to 48c (After 1 hr test)
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4667.0;attach=9992)
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: IIO on April 25, 2022, 05:17:20 PM
...
Title: Re: Quicksilver Thread!
Post by: Greystash on April 26, 2022, 04:46:48 AM
Damn I just bought a Sunon, wish I thought to look here first!