Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Software => Topic started by: part12studios on July 12, 2020, 08:15:41 AM
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Hi everyone, I have some 3DO game console images that i need to burn. I could do with burn for OSX but OSX Burn so far as i could find won't run under OSX Leopard.
Looking for 10.9 or newer. I've emailed them to see if they have legacy versions somewhere, however after trying Toast Titanium 5.3 I found it didn't seem to offer a way to read a cue file. it just wants to make data, music or video disks.
Is there another recommended burning software package out there that anyone knows will recognize .cue / .bin files?
Thanks,
Caleb
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Re. Burn - just go there and download whichever version you want:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/burn-osx/files/Burn/
2.5.1 should be OK for Leopard.
As to the bin/cue files - it sounds like you want to burn a DDP. Is it so?
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Oops, .cue is not a file from the DDP file set, so forget what I wrote about the DDP.
What is it that you want to burn?
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toast normally opens cue/bin, as the document type is as old as CD-R burning itself. if it is a format which can be understood by the system it can also be mounted and if it a VCD it will also directly in VLC in OSX.
what does the cue say? (open in text edit)
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thank you! @ssp3 i got reply from the creator and shared the link to that 2.5.1 so thank you for that suggestion. i didn't know where to find download history of versions. The author had shared that while he had OS9 dev experience, burn was OSX only so that's good to know. I'm going to give it a try tonight.
Also anyone have any suggestions of best quality CD-R? I must admit the disks i'm burning to concern me because i dunno, they seem like they are so think blank i can see through them already.. i seem to remember CD-Rs being not sooo translucent.. in fact when burned surprisingly i couldn't even really see the burned area from the unburned.. the image i was burning was only 350mb or so.. but the whole disk looked consistent in pattern.. and i'd even say maybe it didn't burn but the disk did play
I just knew something was wrong because all of the burned disks you could tell the poor 3DO was having to re-read a number of tracks because i assume it was having trouble making out the data.. while normal disks operated fine telling me the CD drive is ok.
Some of the 3DO files come with some extra files i'm not familiar with. .sub .ccd as well as the .cue and .img file.. i actually don't think any of these zips come with .bin files exactly.. but i imagine the .img file is the ame since that's the file with the data.
yea @ IIO that surprised me too.. that's why i used toast.. but when i'd go to "file / open" and point to the folder with the .cue file in it, it didn't give me any files it recognized as openable.
I checked all the options in the program and nothing made me feel very confident i wasn't going to just burn a CD with the .cue in it.. in the data section if i add files .cue .img, etc.. it felt more like it's just going to burn the CD with those files in it, not actually make it an image.
I don't know what DDP is @SSP3, but yea basically i want to burn these zip files https://archive.org/download/Panasonic-3DO-Redump.org-2019-05-14 to CD-R and do it at the slowest burn rate possible (currently all my mordern hardware only goes down to x10) so I was exploring my Quicksilver and even Sawtooth superdrive options. I might also have a SCSI CD Burner in my external SCSI CD Rom ranks (only used to read till now, never burn) as I know those would burn at those speeds because their max read time is x4.. heh.
I'll try that older version of burn tonight.
Thanks!
Caleb
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maybe my memory is failing me and it only works in OSX. (myself i use toast 6/8/10 in OSX and not v5.x)
if you have windows around, there are various free tools such as bin2iso something which makes this a bit easier.
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Those 3DO image files are a tough cookie. Apparently Panasonic used their own file system, so copying/burning them should be similar to working with Akai sample CDs or Playstation stuff. Also, they won't mount under Mac OS.
I downloaded one of the .bin/.cue combos just for kicks and here are the results:
1. AnyToISO utility (OSX) recognised the .bin file but was unable to convert it to ISO.
2. Toast 9 under OSX recognised both files.
3. Toast 5.2.3 under OS9 did not recognise any of the files.
4. Toast 4.1.3 did see the .bin file (see attached), but ignored .cue file.
Judging by the .cue file, which is just a text file, btw, the discs have 2352 byte sector size, which was correctly identified by Toast 4.
I'd say give it a go and to try to burn a CD with Toast 4.
P.S. DDP = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_Description_Protocol
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interesting. that makes a lot of sense.. that the burning wasn't so much the issue but the packet sizes being not consistent making the 3DO have to re-read a lot of information. I'll try Toast 4 for sure! It does look like my Super Drive will go as low as x4 burning on Quicksilver so that's a double benifit. The main thing now is to convert all of these .img files to .bin because it seems like all of the 3DO files were zip as cue/img files
I'll report back with news. Thankfully i don't have a lot of games to burn but i definitely have some missing games from my original collection that were due to loss/damage.
Thanks!
Caleb
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Also i did try out Burn 2.5.1 however when running on leopard and with the SuperDrive at x4 or x8 (only options) disks that did burn under latest OSX Burn failed to write under 2.5.1 for whatever reason so that solution won't work.
Toast 4 it is!
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having a heck of a time trying to convert .img files to .bin so far powerISO and anyburn won't do it.. maybe because it's a 3DO image.
So the recommendation is to try Toast 4 to burn it? Fortunately I do have a powerbook 190 and SCSI adapter and a x4 SCSI CD Burner.. so with a little luck it all will "just work".
BONUS QUESTION: could a G3 powerbook be "downgraded" to run OS 7.5? I have a OS 8 G3 Powerbook and wonder if it would support older OS but it's not 68k tech.. Toast 4 seems to be 68k designed..
I also do have the Mac SE, but the floppy drive is sick (hoping to fix it this coming weekend)
Thanks!
Caleb
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having a heck of a time trying to convert .img files to .bin so far powerISO and anyburn won't do it.. maybe because it's a 3DO image.
Are you sure you need to convert it? Just point Toast 4 to the image file and see what it says. (Which file in the archive is it, btw?)
..could a G3 powerbook be "downgraded" to run OS 7.5?
No. Everything that came from Apple with G3 processor requires OS8 and up.
Toast 4 seems to be 68k designed..
Almost all apps of that era contain 68k code, so what?
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so PPC could run 68k software ok? I was concerned maybe 68k software would not be compatible with PPC..
Ok cool about img and toast 4.. wasn't sure as it just seems like i've had zero luck finding any software for mac or pc at this point that likes the .img files i give them. maybe it's not that it's .img, but that it's a 3DO .img?
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The whole point of the PPC was that it could run all the old 68k software plus newer stuff optimized for the Power architecture. Most 68k software works just fine on PPC.
As for bin/cue vs cue/img vs img/ccd/sub etc....
The bin section is a bit for bit representation of the data on the data tracks of the CD. The cue file is a text file that describes the layout of the CD, so any software attempting to read the CD knows what format the tracks are in, what gap (if any) is between the tracks, what sector size is used, where the tracks are located in the data stream, etc.
img is essentially cue/bin in the same file; it's got a header at the top of the file, followed by the binary data. The sub file contains extra data found inside tracks (useful for when a track intentionally had bad blocks for copy protection, the sub will cause them to be skipped), and the ccd file is a configuration file for the Windows CloneCD software, so it knows when the image was written, what's on it, etc.
So most versions of Toast will look at a file, check if it's got a header (either img-style or iso-9660/High Sierra style) and skip past it, looking for the actual CD magic bytes. If it finds the magic bytes, it'll burn the CD with best-guess as to sector size -- potentially pulling that data from the header if it can find it.
Any CDs with regular sector formatting should burn just fine; if you've got one with multiple sessions, tracks with different sector sizes, or other odd characteristics, it may not burn correctly with Toast. Any software that will burn from a cue file should be able to make a perfect copy, unless there's copy protection on the original, in which case you need burning software that understands sub files.
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So the recommendation is to try Toast 4 to burn it?
yes, that is still the reconmendation i guess. when ssp3 says it seems to work for him, that should be the easiest solution.
unless you want to keep the images on HD too or free yourself from the depency of T4 for some reason. in that case go on finding a solution how to do the bin2iso thing.
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yea i'll go that route for sure. Definitely not questioning what folks are suggesting, just making sure I understand what i need if i don't have the right stuff.
I was kinda hoping i could find a PC Compatible old USB external drive for cheap, but they seem to be pretty non existent (something old enough that could go down to x4) on ebay from my initial search..
Have to see if i can find an external usb / ide case.. i have SCSI drives but that's a whole other mess for PC option that.. well dang.. i do have a windows 95 box and an adaptect SCSI card.. maybe i can find an option there..
@adespoton thanks for that awesome breakdown. most of the 3do files do not have sub and such, but some do.. so i'll do some more digging around. check with the emulation / 3do community and see if they have a suggested program (mac or otherwise).
Thanks!
Caleb
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I just realized I said one thing that may be misleading. CDs store the CD index at the end of the data track, so disk images have the CD index stored at the end of the file. This is what Toast looks for.
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i will download one too now. it is hard to believe that T5 can not read somthing which worked in T4.
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so... works for me using toast 512.
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no wait, 620 mb should be more than 8 minutes :(
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You can't select the cue file; you have to select the bin and let Toast figure out the schema itself. Otherwise you're just writing a text file out to CD.
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the bin file also ends up in a 100kb long image - unless you rename it(?)
it might properly burn (he must try himself) but this is not very intiutive...
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So it seems the ultimate solution was finding a pc program called imgburn which did the trick with a blueray external drive that supports going down to 4x which was surprising.. seeing that older / dvd burners and such would only go down to 10x or 16x of the devices i own.
CDs are burning nicely. using 700mb disks however i did order a batch of proper 650mb disks for the future.
Thanks for your help on this!
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Nice program.be aware of troyans and malware.
As far as i remember they had problems with that at one stage in time on their website.
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yea seems ok.. i checked the install and at least nothing overtly spyware about it.
thankfully i'm also running it on parallels so it's isolated from doing any real damage it it were in fact evil.
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Nice thread about alternate disk image format.
Just wanted to chime in about the burn speed.
The habit of saying burning slowly = burning better has to do with the fact that the first units of disk burners were advertised with the amount of errors per burning speed (if you could find an issue of Macworld magazine from the end of 90's it would even more striking).
However, technology improved the speed and accuracy of the disk burners. Nowadays, the challenge lies more in the quality of the media than really the quality of the burner. And it is totally possible than burning a CD at 10x will contain less errors (if any) than burning at 2x with a late 90's burner.
Disclaimer: I am all for the retro knowledge preservation and feel like softs like Toast Titanium had a break point where the convenience took away some control/transparency of the process (making unusual usage harder/impossible).
So I would be curious how your 3DO deals with a good quality CD burnt at 10x on a recent superdrive. And then for the sake of science see how it compares with a 2x/4x burn with a retro Mac ;)
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the question is what an "error" is.
that after burning there could be "missing" bits or something like that on the medium is just a rumor - and if there really is one in out 1 out of 200 cases it can be detected through comparison.
but what can happen is that such errors can arise when you read from a CD with 25 years old technology, and one way how to prevent that is to burn not too fast because that makes the holes a bit rounder than normal.
interestingly that doesnt apply to DVD and BD, because for them reading and burning technology is always from the same year. :)
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Yea once i get them all burned in this method and see how many left over test CDs (may run out before i get there, but i batch of 50 650mb disks in the mail coming) I'll have to see just for science.. i'm willing to trade some time (x4 is certainly slow!) for stability.. the issues i first experienced i blame more on the likely fact that the burning software wasn't reading the .cue file properly.. as was initially discussed as the disks were "working" but basically seemed like they were constantly re-reading stuff.. never failing.. just everything required several passes to get the info.. these new ones are going super smooth.. but yea i will have to take this same burner and maybe set at least one disk aside from this batch and burn at a faster speed and see if it experiences any trouble..
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here's a question though that just came to me.. they make floppy emulators.. they make SD/CF Card HHD emulators.. couldn't someone make a CD rom emulator? just fool the old systems into thinking they are reading a disk image?
As IIO points out.. these systems are very old.. classic game hardware and relying on anything as physically mechanical as CD Roms are certainly in more trouble than older cartridges.. where there are no moving parts and so long as the traces and everything hold up can last for many years
I know cosmetically it would perhaps either be ugly or require some kind of enclosure to fill the space a CD rom takes up.. a quick google didn't turn up anything.. maybe that's the next big thing in the roaring 20's? :)
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here's a question though that just came to me.. they make floppy emulators.. they make SD/CF Card HHD emulators.. couldn't someone make a CD rom emulator?
i am not even sure if operating systems will notice the difference between a CD and a HD or SSD volume.
a system where you have e.g. 500 akais on a HD and then you can mount one by one via a small software utility would be for sure nice, but i dont think you´d need a hardware solution for that. :)
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yea however aren't CD Drives known to be picky like like floppies? from my experience with SSD/CF emulators, they seem to be much more universal.. i would imagine like the gotek drives that seem to often require some kind of "massaging" to work on a given system.. be it an Amiga gotek that has been configured to being one that works on a Ensoniq Mirage sampler.. or any other system.
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i see what you mean, yes sure.
but their main purpose is to get rid of the handling i think.
they also have these 100 times virtual card readers for the microwave, korg wavestation and DX7, they make life easier.
i still think that on a mac or windows computer you would just do that using HD & software.
mind you that an atari system could be booted and used without any HD, so if you use a gotek you can do everything by that.
my "CD/DVD/BD emulator" is having the images all on disks and mounting them with toast when needed. it is still a manual process, but one of 2 seconds in OS9 (or 7 seconds in OSX).
something like CDXtract for HFS+ would be nice to have mabye? it would let the user add folders/paths with image files inside, store that list forever, and lets you mount and unmount from a list of available image files by only one click.
p.s.:
how do you mount "mystuff.toast" without toast anyway in OS9? i´ve never thought of that.
in OSX that is all done by disk utility so you could make the backend using shellscripts or automator.
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yea i'm thinking more like more specialized systems like CD based game consoles.. Computers tend to have a variety of ways to move around a CD rom, though installation of the OS itself is one that's tougher to work around..
but yea i'm thinking like if my 3DO CD rom went bad or a PS1 or others, how i might fix it if i couldn't find a physically matching model
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Have any of you tried using https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/virtual-dvd-romcd-utility ? I know it has support for multiple formats, for both reading physical CDs and mounting virtual CDs, but I haven't tried it with bin/cue. It has the advantage that you don't need Toast, but it's not burning software, so you still can't use it to write images back out to use on other platforms. I have to admit I always turn to Windows XP for that part, as the tools I've found over the years are just so much more capable than what's on OS 9 or even OS X/macOS/Linux.
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yea it was really about burning physical disks.. but it is good that virtual drive options are out there for classic mac!
i did do some testing with a 16x burner with IMGBurn and it did fine. I suspect really it was more about the initial disk burning software that didn't read/write the data properly for the 3DO to read.
Also though I've just found 4DO, a 3DO emulator that works very well. you do need to find roms for the 3DO (which i happened to have from a previous emulator i tried that sucked) and 4DO did really well.. reading a .bin file straight up and playing the game.
I'm still enjoying the original system and seeing it on a proper CRT TV... Always better on the real thing whenever possible.
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yea i'm thinking more like more specialized systems like CD based game consoles.. Computers tend to have a variety of ways to move around a CD rom, though installation of the OS itself is one that's tougher to work around..
but yea i'm thinking like if my 3DO CD rom went bad or a PS1 or others, how i might fix it if i couldn't find a physically matching model
It is interesting to see that in recent months, a trend started on O.D.E. (Optical Disk Emulator) to fill in the gap of dying drives. For example:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2eH3sR1Ymt8
The main issue is that it is console-specific and would require somebody ti develop or adapt one to the 3DO variant you have :)
But you can try to search about all consoles with an ODE available or rumored (in the end it will only get worse with time...).
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yea there is and USB drive option for 3DO now, but unfortunately its around $250.. :P and you still have to do the installation yourself..
http://3do-renovation.ru/USB_Host_for_FZ1.htm
I hope thought at some point maybe someone else will make something similar.. but more reasonable (i mean a new system averages 1/2 that cost)
though the flash drive would be better in other ways too like access time and convenience