Mac OS 9 Lives

Classic Mac OS Hardware => Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware => Topic started by: Protools5LEGuy on March 13, 2014, 03:56:02 PM

Title: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 13, 2014, 03:56:02 PM
Is there out a method to "change" the "firmware" of a MDD FW800 to a OS9 bootable (First MDD) "bios"?
I did not find anyone that had made, but maybe one user has the 2 models and can say us: "the fw800 has a XXX chip for the bios and the Fw400 has YYY chip"  Maybe noone was brave enought to "desolder" the "OSX" controller and put a "OS9" compatible one.
There "should" be a method to "force flash" the bios  from the FW800 models to OS9, but in 6-7 years of research I did not find anything nor anyone.

But I just learned in the good way that this machines can still surprise us.

I readed somewhere that Lacie FW800 add-on cards work on OS9 as FW400.

Maybe the FW800 FW chipset is the only difference?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 13, 2014, 04:14:32 PM
In theory from open-firmware the user can say "dont use that resource".
This is the way for "unplug" onboard graphics cards on beige G3s for using pci ones.

There are too many FW800 machines out there and we want boot OS9 with them!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on March 13, 2014, 04:42:32 PM
-No Fw800, No USB 2... but I had read long time ago that this is posible.

-Format an HD with Mac Os 9 drivers.
-Use a Mac Os ROM version 10.2
-Force the startup with this HD.
... I never tested this, but may help ...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 13, 2014, 04:49:33 PM
-No Fw800, No USB 2... but I had read long time ago that this is posible.

-Format an HD with Mac Os 9 drivers.
-Use a Mac Os ROM version 10.2
-Force the startup with this HD.
... I never tested this, but may help ...
I had never read that. If it is true, it should not matter what model of MDD to buy for OS9.
Pci usb2 cards work in OS9 as usb1
Pci Fw800 cards work in Os9 as fw400
I asume you mean you cant use onboard usb2.0 ports and fw800.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Syntho on March 13, 2014, 08:10:54 PM
Let's wait until DieHard chimes in. I think he's an expert when it comes to this  -afro-
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 13, 2014, 09:12:37 PM
I had never read that. If it is true, it should not matter what model of MDD to buy for OS9.
Pci usb2 cards work in OS9 as usb1
Pci Fw800 cards work in Os9 as fw400
I asume you mean you cant use onboard usb2.0 ports and fw800.

which g4 has usb 2.0  :o
u can have usb 2.0 in win98se ;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 13, 2014, 11:06:56 PM
I have used the fw800 cpu (dual 1.42ghz) chips in the fw400
and it works alright - very quick for macos9 - only that it does run hotter
and the os9 doesn't have good manual software fan controllers -
the rate of the fans seem to be higher and noisier in os9 than in osx.
This is probably why the mdd 1.42ghz processors were on a model
that were macosx only the fan controllers were able to be controlled
better within the system - I don't know the reason.

So if I can use the cpu for fw800 on a motherboard for a fw400 mdd and macos9
works then the ROM for os9 must be on the fw400 motherboard and
not on the motherboard for the mdd fw800 g4's - my guess.

So the only downgrade would be a motherboard of the fw400 version
where the macos9 ROM chip resides. Must not be on the Fw800 model
motherboards.

Title: MDD FW800 Boot to OS 9
Post by: DieHard on March 14, 2014, 08:58:38 AM
This is like an old wound that never heals...

The reason so many of us got excited back in 2004 was that someone realized there was a special version on the Mac OS ROM File that resided on the Mac diagnostic CD that did in fact allow the G4 MDD FW800 units to boot to (what appeared to be) Mac OS 9.2.2.

Unfortunately, the excitement turn into frustration, since nobody was able to make a working copy that ran even a minimal set of extensions... the Apple diagnostic package with the modified MAC OS ROM file seemed to be a bare minimum alternative that booted to something that had an OS 9 facelift, but did not posses the full OS 9 Mojo... in other words, to my knowledge nobody ever made a full working copy of bootable Mac OS 9.2.2 that  worked on the FW800.... Many rumors have been around for a long time that this modified version of the ROM file (that was never released to the public) had a version that was fully operational under 9.2.2....

it was also rumored that there was a another ROM file version file that even allowed the first G5s to work under Mac OS 9 (although with such radially different hardware, I personally thought of this rumor as an urban legend).

So... in conclusion... any Mac gurus that have a MDD FW800 diagnostic CD, please extract everything needed and create a Bootable complete version of OS 9 for us... we look forward to posting a working copy by the end of the week... or month... or year :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on March 14, 2014, 11:15:07 AM
There is "another" ROM that allow the "Spring 2003" iMac G4/800 "Flat Panel" X Only, to boot into Mac Os 9.
 I've taken a little time comparing that special ROM (convenient called "Custer") and Mac Os ROM 10.2.1 and I always thought that are almost the same thing. My therory is that the Custer ROM upgrades Mac Os ROM 9.8.1 to 10.2.1, but I may be wrong.
As I haven't any FW800 to test it.  I can share This ROM to any one that want to experiment. ...and who knows...
Title: Re: MDD FW800 Boot to OS 9
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2014, 12:47:29 PM
This is like an old wound that never heals...

For a OS9 lover that had bought the wrong MDD, sure it never heals...  ;)
My MDD is an 867 dual FW400. I would not buy an MDD FW800, but just because I love OS9 and don't care about OSX only machines and I study my purchases before I do (make the homework).

I hope we can find a solution soon for all those who bought an FW800 and look OS9 saying "I can't".

So... in conclusion... any Mac gurus that have a MDD FW800 diagnostic CD, please extract everything needed and create a Bootable complete version of OS 9 for us... we look forward to posting a working copy by the end of the week... or month... or year :)
We are searching for it  :)
There is "another" ROM that allow the "Spring 2003" iMac G4/800 "Flat Panel" X Only, to boot into Mac Os 9.
 I've taken a little time comparing that special ROM (convenient called "Custer") and Mac Os ROM 10.2.1 and I always thought that are almost the same thing. My therory is that the Custer ROM upgrades Mac Os ROM 9.8.1 to 10.2.1, but I may be wrong.
As I haven't any FW800 to test it.  I can share This ROM to any one that want to experiment. ...and who knows...

That's great! An OSX only machine that can go OS9!
Title: Re: MDD FW800 Boot to OS 9
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2014, 12:55:56 PM

So... in conclusion... any Mac gurus that have a MDD FW800 diagnostic CD, please extract everything needed and create a Bootable complete version of OS 9 for us... we look forward to posting a working copy by the end of the week... or month... or year :)
https://discussions.apple.com/message/13022080#13022080 (https://discussions.apple.com/message/13022080#13022080)
Says that AHT 2.0.1 (FW800) is here http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Hardware_Test/693-4817-A.dmg (http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Hardware_Test/693-4817-A.dmg)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2014, 01:01:39 PM
 Grant Bennet-Alder in response to John Rock.
"When Apple declared the end of OS 9 bootablity, schools all over the country demanded extra time to finish their conversion to Mac OS X, especially the Server infrastructure. They needed new Macs, but could not yet support them on their older Servers, and could not convert to newer Servers without more time. There was ONE model issued later, only for the Education market, with a single 1.0GHz processor AND a FW800 port that could still boot OS 9.

There is thought to be a special version of the Mac OS ROM file (developed for that Mac) and few more additions that may be able to be coaxed to boot OS 9 directly on a FW800 G4. That Mac OS ROM file was also said to be found in an Apple-only diagnostic package that was never released to the outside world.

That is all the info I have. I have never tried to track down the files or verified their existence."
which g4 has usb 2.0  :o
u can have usb 2.0 in win98se ;)


Chris, finally the FW800 you saw could be the gate to MDD FW800 to boot OS9. If it is in your interest have spares...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2014, 01:05:58 PM
Booting OS9 on newer (unsupported) macs Part II
from 68k liberation
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=18994 (http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=18994)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 14, 2014, 03:43:42 PM
guaranteed its possible.
theres a guy out there somewhere who wrote this open firmware shit and he knows its possible too.

WHERE ARE U OPEN FIRMWARE GUY
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 14, 2014, 04:42:20 PM
I have uploaded the OS9General FW800 file to the file section but heres the differences between
the system files in the system folder for the OS9General Image for the FW400 computers
and the FW800 computers;

In the System Folder of the MDD FW800 Model here are the files.

Classic           v9.1.6 Mac OS 9.2.2 Extras 1.4         (Created 21/03/03 - Size 3.2mb)
Classic Support            v2.1.1 Mac OS 9.2.2 Extras 1.4         (Created 22/11/02 - Size 213KB)
Classic Support UI    v2.1.1 Mac OS 9.2.2 Extras 1.4         (Created 22/11/02 - Size 279KB)

Finder           vZ1-9.2 Mac OS Z-9.2.2            (Created 30/05/01 - Modified 15/06/01 - Size 2.4mb)

Login                 v1.4.1 Mac OS Z-9.2.2            (Created 04/04/01 - Size 700KB)

Mac OS ROM       v9.7.1 Mac OS CPU Software Z-5.6      (Created 12/10/02 - Size 3.4mb)

Panels           v1.4.1 Mac OS Z-9.2.2            (Created 04/04/01 - Size 1.3mb)

System         (18.4mb file) Date Created: 02/08/98      (Date Created 02/08/98 5:00am - Size 18.5mb)
System Resources   vZ1-9.2.2 Mac OS Z-9.2.2 (1mb file)      (Date Created 16/11/01 - Modified 22/11/01 7:00am - Size 1mb)


In the System Folder of the MDD FW400 Model here are the files.

Classic          v9.1.7    Mac OS 9.2.2 Extras 1.5       (Created 21/03/03 - Size 3.2mb)
Classic Support            v2.1.1    Mac OS 9.2.2 Extras 1.5       (Created 22/11/02 - Size 213KB)
Classic Support UI   v2.1.1    Mac OS 9.2.2 Extras 1.5       (Created 22/11/02 - Size 279KB)

Finder          vZ1-9.2    Mac OS Z-9.2.2                 (Created 30/05/01 - Modified 15/06/01 5:00am - Size 2.4mb)

Login                 v1.4.1    Mac OS Z-9.2.2                  (Created 04/04/01 - Size 700KB)

Mac OS ROM      v10.2.1    Mac OS CPU Software Z-5.8    (Created 04/04/03 - Size 3.4mb)
      
Panels         v1.4.1    Mac OS Z-9.2.2            (Created 04/04/01 - Size 1.3mb)

System                                 (Date Created 02/08/98 - Size 18.5mb)
System Resources   vZ1-9.2.2 Mac OS Z-9.2.2 (1mb file)      (Date Created 16/11/01 - Modified 22/11/01 - Size 1mb)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 14, 2014, 04:53:34 PM
from the previous post - so the MDD FW800 operates as classic only and MDD FW400 system is bootable.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2014, 05:07:06 PM
I have uploaded the OS9General FW800 file to the file section but heres the differences between
the system files in the system folder for the OS9General Image for the FW400 computers
and the FW800 computers;
Is that "OS9General FW800" the AHT 2.0.1 ? Is the MacOS9 for MDD'03 EDU?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 14, 2014, 05:31:19 PM
This is from the Install DVD for the powermac MDD G4 FW800. I just showed up the invisible files
and extracted the OS9General.dmg

Although I also have the install DVD for the PMG4 FW400 that has AHT2.0.2 for those introduced in
2003.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2014, 06:06:02 PM
Although I also have the install DVD for the PMG4 FW400 that has AHT2.0.2 for those introduced in
2003.
Can you show us these
2003 models EDU MacOS9
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 14, 2014, 06:18:06 PM
Do you mean upload?

My uploads on the site are very slow. I have been trying to
put a few 6-700 mb cd images up and still haven't been
successful. So a DVD image would not work.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 14, 2014, 06:25:14 PM
Or would you like a photo of the DVD?

here:
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 14, 2014, 06:28:04 PM
Not sure about EDU.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2014, 07:05:16 PM
https://discussions.apple.com/message/15094917#15094917 (https://discussions.apple.com/message/15094917#15094917)
Says there is a MDD for education with FW800 that boots OS9
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 15, 2014, 12:15:53 AM
Anyway I have used the file that I uploaded (OS9Generalfw800.dmg) as a classic environment from within macosx 10.4 and I know it works very well. However I have never tried it to boot up any mac as yet.

So today I gave it a go on a fw400 mdd and it worked very well.
There were a number of issues that I found during the installation of it.
I used macosx 10.4.11 to do the install on another HD in my fw400.
I copied the image to another hard drive then I clicked on the image twice to open it.
The image did not open normally - it did not appear on my desktop. I tried 3 times and still no image on the desktop. So I then opened the Terminal app in Tiger and typed;

defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles 1; killall Finder

to show all invisible files - and sure enough the images were there on my desktop all 3 open. I chucked them all out - then I put the Powermac G4 DVD back in and extracted the image again (OS9General.dmg the fw800) onto the hard drive again then used disk utility to restore the hard drive I wanted macos9 on. Booted from the newly installed disk and it worked well.

I then opened the OS9General.dmg(fw400 one) and took out extensions - I also looked into system folders of other HD's for other drivers. It is a great working system.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 15, 2014, 12:30:18 AM

Can you show us these
2003 models EDU MacOS9

Is that "OS9General FW800" the AHT 2.0.1 ? Is the MacOS9 for MDD'03 EDU?


Protools5LEGuy I just found this disk in a pile the AHT 2.0.1 but it's only like 30mb in total for the whole disk, it came with the Powermac G4 Software Install and Restore disk for the Powermac G4 fw800 I had ages ago. They are both dated 2003. The Install Disk is what the OS9Generalfw800 image is taken from. Here's the photos.

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 15, 2014, 05:44:16 AM
Has anyone got a fw800 mac and want to try the OS9Generalfw800.dmg file to see if they can boot into macos9?

Thanks in advance

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on March 15, 2014, 07:08:18 AM
according to this post in a google group it should be easy:

Quote
A friend of mine has OS9 running native on his G4 FW800, even though, officially, this is not possible.
To run 9.2.2 on MDD and FW800, you need Mac OS ROM version 9.6.1 and Quicktime 5.02. They are in a file called OS9General.dmg, which decompresses to the last release of the System Folder for OS9. You can get it here:

http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-922-1021-power-macintosh-g4-mirrored-drive-doors-mdd

That page gives these links:

Mac OS ROM 9.6.1: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MT4DOQKV
Mac OS 9 MDD DMG: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XIZRTZXW

I sent my friend a CD containing OS9General.dmg. He loaded it into his FW800 and installed OS9 onto his hard drive. Here's the trick: that hard drive already contained an OS9 driver (installed by another G4).

Neither the OS9 or OSX install disks will put an OS9 driver onto a hard drive in a FW800. THAT's why - the only reason - you "cannot" run OS9 native on a FW800.

When running OS9 native on his FW800, my friend reports that his OSX drive does not mount. Equally, when running OSX, the OS9 drive does not show up. With X the default, my friend uses the Option key at startup, to boot into 9.

I'm wondering if someone with a G5 could try out the same method, to see if OS9 will run native on a G5. Please let us all know.

My friend, Howard Miller, is presently a sheep farmer, but he used to be an Apple dealer in the 1990s. He has a hoard of old Macs and Mac parts, printers, scanners etc that he traded in; if anyone is looking for such, please let him know. His address is mailto:[email protected]

Peter
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on March 15, 2014, 07:11:24 AM
and here is the link to the post:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/macos9/omLso5j1dkU

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 15, 2014, 03:00:20 PM
I have been going through some of the older norton utility disks that I have and I found a norton utilities 8 which has system folder with 9.5.1 Mac OS ROM which boots the fw400 - may boot fw800? Give it try.
Uploaded to files server - under OS9SystemNortonUtility8.zip
Uploaded AHT 2.0.1 disk image for mdd fw800 to file server.
Uploaded a bootable disk image for Norton utilities 6.0.3 using the 9.5.1 Mac OS ROM above if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 22, 2014, 12:21:23 AM
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-10342906-263.html

this article talks about this i think?

scroll to: Living in a modern OS world: Booting Mac OS 9 on 2003 (Mac OS X only) Macs

Quote
Apple recently posted a new file to its private Apple Service Provider web page (accessible only by account-holding Apple technicians and resellers) titled "MacTest Pro for Power Mac G4 (March 2003) Version 7.8.1 supports all iMac (Flat Panel) 15 inch systems only."

The file is a CD image which can be downloaded and to a disc, then used as a startup disk. Testing on a "Mac OS X-only" flat panel iMac system revealed that the image properly booted Mac OS 9.

Users can then copy a stripped-down Mac OS 9 system folder to their hard drive, and select it with the "Startup Disk" System Preferences pane, delivering a Mac OS 9 bootable internal disk.

It appears that a new MacOS ROM file (ver. 9.8.1) is what enables booting from the image.

Of course, this solution is only readily accessible by Mac service providers, but it shows that Mac OS 9 boots are not impossible on Apple's new machines. Also, please note that Mac OS 9 startup was not tested on any machines other than the 2003 flat-panel iMac. This method has been independently verified.

so hes saying this worked on the the 2003 imac g4..
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.0_17_fp.html

which... according to everymac.com...
Quote
:    *This model is capable of using Mac OS 9 applications within the Mac OS X "Classic" environment provided with Mac OS X 10.4.11 "Tiger" and lower ("Classic" is not supported starting with Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard"). It cannot boot into Mac OS 9.

ok so this might only be affecting this model:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.0_15_fp.html
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 25, 2014, 02:34:45 PM
https://discussions.apple.com/message/15094917#15094917

here this guy grant speaks of a special EDUCATION edition - MDD single processor 1GHZ with FW800 port that could boot os9?????????

Quote
When Apple declared the end of OS 9 bootablity, schools all over the country demanded extra time to finish their conversion to Mac OS X, especially the Server infrastructure. They needed new Macs, but could not yet support them on their older Servers, and could not convert to newer Servers without more time. There was ONE model issued later, only for the Education market, with a single 1.0GHz processor AND a FW800 port that could still boot OS 9.

There is thought to be a special version of the Mac OS ROM file (developed for that Mac) and few more additions that may be able to be coaxed to boot OS 9 directly on a FW800 G4. That Mac OS ROM file was also said to be found in an Apple-only diagnostic package that was never released to the outside world.

That is all the info I have. I have never tried to track down the files or verified their existence.

WOW man.. i was just being asked to buy a 1ghz mdd single processor? and i didnt say yes to it because i thought someone had tampered with it. because i couldnt see nay listing of a single processor 1.0ghz mdd...
wow..... i just emailed the guy to see if this mac had a fw800 port..
hope the guy knows what a fw800 port is.. i should have included a picture! LOL
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 25, 2014, 04:24:38 PM
Chris as I mentioned in your post new Quicksilver I put up photos for a 1ghz fw800 mdd model computer which I paid 0.99c on ebay - however there was no classic system on it - no macos9 ROM.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 25, 2014, 04:26:44 PM
Chris as I mentioned in your post new Quicksilver I put up photos for a 1ghz fw800 mdd model computer which I paid 0.99c on ebay - however there was no classic system on it - no macos9 ROM.

ok! i didnt catch that it was a 1ghz mdd (educational fw800 non retail model), i thought u said u got a 1.42ghz mdd fw800 (the retail model). perhaps this is a myth/legend.. or perhaps it was only on some specific educational os install disc??
maybe we will never know - tbh i think its really stupid that they made these computers unable to boot 9.. i really dont understand the logic behind it.. other then they wanted everyone to use X.... and achieved this by force.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 25, 2014, 04:50:22 PM
I don't believe that these were educational models only because this had come from a business which
they had stopped using around 2006 - from what I can see.
So I just think these computers were probably the low end at the time the other dual mdd's were selling.

Don't really know - having a guess.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 25, 2014, 05:33:11 PM
well if u look up the information, there is no public info on an mdd of that single cpu configuration so..*shrug*
if it didnt have the fw800 port u would think its just an 867mhz with some type of overclock done somehow..
 but with a fw800 port it has to be aspecific model that wasnt publicly advertised
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 25, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
I do have a mdd dual 1.25 fw400 model mdd that I put a fw800 cpu into - the dual 1.42 - and it works fine in Macos9 - very quick but very hot. Needs extra cooling - have 2 more fans but still I think it would do better with a radiator - just have to alter the heat sink for the cpu that's all.

Also the ati graphics card that came with the dual 1.42 mdd - the 9700pro OEM is a fast card in macosX but also runs very hot in a mdd. Have had to change the fans twice on it don't know what happened to the fans. Works in macos9 after sorting out extensions that just do not work with it.(ATI accelerator & ATI 3d accelerator if I can remember) Not a good macos9 card - no support for 3d and other accelerators but a great macosx card - I changed it with the 9000 pro which works very well with os9.

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 26, 2014, 05:46:44 AM
according to this post in a google group it should be easy:

Quote
Neither the OS9 or OSX install disks will put an OS9 driver onto a hard drive in a FW800. THAT's why - the only reason - you "cannot" run OS9 native on a FW800.

When running OS9 native on his FW800, my friend reports that his OSX drive does not mount. Equally, when running OSX, the OS9 drive does not show up. With X the default, my friend uses the Option key at startup, to boot into 9.

I'm wondering if someone with a G5 could try out the same method, to see if OS9 will run native on a G5. Please let us all know.

megaupload is long gone.. so we cant get that macos9rom but
i was thinking similar thoughts last nite..  i was talking to diehard about the  "software restore" 5 disk set that i received with my 933 qs....he was saying that the 9.2.2 on the cds wouldnt allow me to 'boot os9' he meant to install JUST os 9.2.2 without installing X at all.. as u have to isntall both im sure to get anything off the software restore discs..

but having had to just do some carbon copy cloning MAGIC just to get my 'os9 driver" onto the disk.... this was the exact thign i was thinking about re people saying os 9 wouldnt boot etc.. well perhaps these installs just lacked the process of adding that mac os 9 driver to the hard drive in the first place.. and what if u had the right rom for the machine.. as well as the os9 drivers on the disk.. but that was my thoguht exacltly.. what if the installers dont put this os9 driver on the disk.. because i couldnt figure out how.. the lady who sold me her 933 was able to install osx 10.1 fresh install without adding the "os9 drivers" to either hardrive on the system???
and as u know this "os9 driver" we speak of.. can only be added to a drive when its completely EMPTY and being formatted + partitioned initially... if this crucial step is missing it will never boot. u can install 400 times in a row and the machine will never boot 9 untill it has the drive prepared for 9 properly before even installing....
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on March 26, 2014, 10:40:20 AM
...put your FW800 into Disk Target Mode, connect it to a Mac Os 9 Mac, and reformat its HD  with Mac Os 9 drivers as you'll do whith a normal FW external enclosure.
Then you can drag-install a valid system folder on the FW800 HD (still in DTM mode) and restart your Mac os 9 machine whith the HD of the FW800 (still in DTM mode) to test this HD boot.
Shut down both computers, unplug FW cable, cross your fingers and start the FW800.
Good luck.

I think that Mac Os ROM 10.2.1 will do the trick. But I never tried to boot a FW800 with Mac Os 9...
If you need another ROM version, just ask, I have an almost complete colecction :)
I'll hope to have explained it well...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 26, 2014, 12:05:00 PM
...put your FW800 into Disk Target Mode, connect it to a Mac Os 9 Mac, and reformat its HD  with Mac Os 9 drivers as you'll do whith a normal FW external enclosure.
Then you can drag-install a valid system folder on the FW800 HD (still in DTM mode) and restart your Mac os 9 machine whith the HD of the FW800 (still in DTM mode) to test this HD boot.
Shut down both computers, unplug FW cable, cross your fingers and start the FW800.
Good luck.

I think that Mac Os ROM 10.2.1 will do the trick. But I never tried to boot a FW800 with Mac Os 9...
If you need another ROM version, just ask, I have an almost complete colecction :)
I'll hope to have explained it well...

Jakl! its up to you to test this!! i want to know all the results:D ASAP! get to work!  LOL
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 26, 2014, 01:52:50 PM
I will, I will Chris...:-) - its early morning will do when I get back this afternoon.

Mactron the ones I tried are 9.5.1 and 9.7.1 also 10.2.1 - I read that 9.6.1 and 9.8.1 have been shown to work, but I don't have these ROMs.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 26, 2014, 05:52:23 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-G4-1-0-GHz-SINGLE-CPU-MDD-17-Apple-Display-160-GIG-Hard-Drive-/151262411429?pt=Apple_Desktops&hash=item2337f13aa5

heres one of them i found one bay just now
can see the single fw800 port under the 2 fw400 ports..
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 26, 2014, 06:29:21 PM
if we are able to do the fw800 g4.. wouldnt we then be able to do the same thing on like.. the g4 mac mini's?  or the later powerbook g4s?
maybe not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_9
good list here
ive never actually checked this page before
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 27, 2014, 02:51:46 AM
Well peoples no go - no system folder with the ROMs that I have booted into macos9 on the FW800 - I installed four system macos9 versions with the HD wiped clean each time with Norton utilities Wipe Info.

No go guys with 9.5.1, 9.7.1, 10.2.1, install CD of macos9 with version 8.9.1. none worked.

Anymore suggestions?

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 27, 2014, 04:03:33 AM
Well peoples no go - no system folder with the ROMs that I have booted into macos9 on the FW800 - I installed four system macos9 versions with the HD wiped clean each time with Norton utilities Wipe Info.

No go guys with 9.5.1, 9.7.1, 10.2.1, install CD of macos9 with version 8.9.1. none worked.

Anymore suggestions?
wasnt the whole point to initiaize the drive in os9 on a working g4 everytime
to put the os9 drivers on the disk.. they said that the fw800 is incapable of putting the os9 driver on the drive if u wipe the drive on the fw800...
wait are u saying u used norton in target disk mode to the other g4?
and u arent using the rom  that they said worked..
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 27, 2014, 04:31:29 AM
this what I did:
target disk mode from macos9 from a mdd g4 fw400 - wiped HD of FW800 computer using Norton Utilities 6.0.3. Booted into Tiger from mdd g4 fw400 computer and Target Disk Mode reformatted drive with OS9 drivers and installed MDD400 OS9General(then booted) - MDD800 OS9General(then booted) - System folders with different ROMS(then booted).

- The computer only booted up to the question mark on the boot screen - thats it.

Repeated process everytime totally erased HD to make sure nothing was on it then installed macos9 drivers.

The last try I used a Digital Audio G4 and target disk mode to install macos9.2.1 from the CD installer only because the MDD FW400 would not install it from that particular CD. Still no luck.

I still haven't tried MacOS ROMs 9.6.1 and 9.8.1 which have been known to work. If you have them I'll try.

This supports what I was thinking ages ago that there must be a ROM on the motherboard for OS9 to use to boot into. It is not on the CPU because you can use a FW800 CPU on a FW400 board and boot macos9.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 27, 2014, 05:31:03 AM
This supports what I was thinking ages ago that there must be a ROM on the motherboard for OS9 to use to boot into. It is not on the CPU because you can use a FW800 CPU on a FW400 board and boot macos9.

right, i get this mode of thinking..
but is there some type of bios area on the g4 motherboard?
that isnt wiped with a PRAM reset...

perhaps its actually the openfirmware version itself that is disabling the boot?
there might be little point to make it work if it took replacing some chips on the fw800 board with chips from a fw400
but what if the openfirmware programming can be copied from a fw400 to fw800..?

where else could this code be disabling the boot.. clearly like u said. the problem is on the motherboard itself..
some type of programming exists to disable this (purposefully by apple)

(http://www.nightfallcrew.com/wp-content/gallery/apple-power-mac-g4-mdd-m8570/IMG_2079.jpg)

but is there a way to revert the openfirmware to the same that is on the fw400 machine?
perhaps many have tried this and failed in the years between then  + now
but perhaps some have succeeded (which would be the reason for this post from "Peter" above, or it could be he is just a troll? LOL)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 27, 2014, 05:41:34 AM
this what I did:
target disk mode from macos9 from a mdd g4 fw400 - wiped HD of FW800 computer using Norton Utilities 6.0.3. Booted into Tiger from mdd g4 fw400 computer and Target Disk Mode reformatted drive with OS9 drivers and installed MDD400 OS9General(then booted) - MDD800 OS9General(then booted) - System folders with different ROMS(then booted).

- The computer only booted up to the question mark on the boot screen - that

from what i gathered from the original post, i would be moving the harddrive physically from a fw400 rather then using targetdisk mode
becasue targetdisk mode is governed by the openfirmware right?

my brain would put the process like this:
-new hard drive installed into existing mac os 9.2.2 install on a 9 booting mdd
-intialize with drive setup
-copy all system folders etc
-reboot to the new drive (startup disk change) to ensure that it works
-reboot back to the original boot drive on the 9 mac.. (startup disk change back)
-shutdown + remove the hard drive that has been confirmed 'bootable'
-install hard drive on its own as the only drive in the fw800 mac
-boot up fw800 machine with option key to see if it sees the partition/drive

whatever it is that stops it.. its probably the exact same on the powermac g5!

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 27, 2014, 06:08:37 AM
I have tried this ages ago and if I can recall same problem happens.
I recall I am revisiting this boot problem - never got it before maybe my
last hope that it may happen this time around...:)

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 27, 2014, 06:12:16 AM
I have tried this ages ago and if I can recall same problem happens.
I recall I am revisiting this boot problem - never got it before maybe my
last hope that it may happen this time around...:)

probably yes:(
i bet this is programmed in the code of the openfirmware
u would have to be an "embedded systems" programmer
or learn openfirmware language to try to circumvent!

do powermac g5's run off the same openfirmware?
we probably wont be able to fix this
but it would be super cool to see it being hacked some day..
maybe 30 years from now someone will crack:D hahaha
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 27, 2014, 06:18:53 AM

perhaps its actually the openfirmware version itself that is disabling the boot?
there might be little point to make it work if it took replacing some chips on the fw800 board with chips from a fw400
but what if the openfirmware programming can be copied from a fw400 to fw800..?
[/quote]

Maybe the cue in the open firmware is the FW800 port on the G4 and G5 models? As soon as that is detected the switch happens - question mark? Who knows?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 27, 2014, 06:29:22 AM
Maybe the cue in the open firmware is the FW800 port on the G4 and G5 models? As soon as that is detected the switch happens - question mark? Who knows?

my thoughts are that the fw800 port doesnt actually stop it. its jsut a coincidence i think.. i mean apple made the decision to disable this..
i highly doubt that the fw800 port is the thing actually stopping it due to a physical incompatibility.. because there are plenty of fw800 adapter cards that work in os9
albeit at fw400 speed due to no software driver/support libraries or whatever .. they disabled it becaue they wanted to.. plain + Simple.otehrwise all g5s would be able to boot os9.
i guess we will never know if there is truly a hardware reason why they did this. or if they just did it because they felt like it..
i guarantee u it was steve jobs order to make this happen so that "osx could flourish" .. well ok i cant guarantee it :) but i strongly believe that it was a tactical strategic move with no real hardware incompatibility! this decision must have come at the end of all the hard work they put into building osx from ground up.. they probably got to a point that they were happy with it + They literally forced everyone to adopt it as the new standard.

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 27, 2014, 01:24:03 PM
Can anyone show me a FW400 only mac that is not macos9 bootable?
Or do we know of any G4's that do not boot Macos9 and that does not have a FW800 port?

I think the FW800 port must be built into the motherboard for this openfirmaware switch to happen
and/or maybe even USB2 as well because none were supported in macos9.

So if a mac had FW800 &/or USB2 then macos9 was not bootable.

There maybe an enabler floating around somewhere that overrides this - I hope. ???
Maybe it's sitting there on the mac desktop invisible and we just cannot see it... ::)
Or is there a way in macos9 to show invisible files?

It would be great to be able to follow the code at boot. Anyway...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on March 27, 2014, 04:03:32 PM
You should try the "Mythical" Custer ROM (includes Mac Os ROM 9.8.1):
https://www.adrive.com/public/Fgb3Ge/MacOs922custer.img.sit
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 27, 2014, 07:27:41 PM
Tried the MacOs922custer image - error in expansion
"The Mount Image operation did not complete. (130)
The checksum is invalid.

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on March 28, 2014, 02:22:46 PM
Tried the MacOs922custer image - error in expansion
"The Mount Image operation did not complete. (130)
The checksum is invalid.
File fixed!
Sorry for the inconvenience...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 28, 2014, 02:24:43 PM
ahh that sucks!  :'( i was all excited to see  new post to see if it worked or not  ;D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on March 28, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
i will try this as well since i now fixed my mddfw800 (power supply was missing 5v)

i think it is important to have a harddisk with osx in the mdd as well. just a feeling....

@mactron: i can't download the mythical thingy, file was removed :-(
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on March 28, 2014, 03:14:03 PM
Sorry. I'd forgotten to enable the share option ...

https://www.adrive.com/public/syXMEV/MacOs922custer.img.sit
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on March 28, 2014, 03:18:21 PM
no problem. i am downloading now...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 28, 2014, 05:49:10 PM
Thank you very much for that Mactron - have installed it onto the HD of my FW800
still on boot screen - option pressed - it didn't show up as a bootable disk.
I have just installed 10.2.4 on a separate partition to see if will work in classic and then
see if it will boot up.

Still early in the testing - hopefully something may come up to do that may make it work.
We''ll have to wait and see.

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 29, 2014, 12:47:00 AM
How are you going lokki have you tested it yet?

I'm a little busy will get into it tomorrow - I hope.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 29, 2014, 05:32:30 AM
I swear the real problem lies not in the rom but in the openfirmware version

maybe u could hack openfirmware to boot from that device much in the way that they do this usb drive:
https://sites.google.com/site/shawnhcorey/howto-boot-apple-powerpcs-from-a-usb-drive-in-open-firmware

more on openfirmware:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9OMOHl73IE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_khaWNGESs
http://lowendmac.com/2007/fooling-the-os-x-10-5-leopard-installer-with-open-firmware/
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on March 29, 2014, 08:15:17 AM
it will be monday before i can test.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 29, 2014, 05:25:06 PM
I swear the real problem lies not in the rom but in the openfirmware version

maybe u could hack openfirmware to boot from that device much in the way that they do this usb drive:
https://sites.google.com/site/shawnhcorey/howto-boot-apple-powerpcs-from-a-usb-drive-in-open-firmware

more on openfirmware:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9OMOHl73IE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_khaWNGESs
http://lowendmac.com/2007/fooling-the-os-x-10-5-leopard-installer-with-open-firmware/

I like the openfirmware post - not enough said, but I am posting the two different boot lists from a firewire 400 and a firewire 800. Maybe someone may be able to work out what is happening here.

The fw400a and fw400b is from a mdd fw400 dual 1.42ghz machine macos9 bootable
The fw800a and fw800b is from a mdd fw800 single 1.00ghz machine not macos9 bootable.

Here the photos;
The photos do overlap quite a bit for each photo but I'm sure you can follow them.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 29, 2014, 05:46:55 PM
Okay folks found one area where there is a difference in the boot processors - see photo.
From fw800b has a few extra boot items;
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 31, 2014, 11:59:19 AM
if u compare the output from starting up *without* the disk attached..
and then *WITH*..

u should be able to see the "/disk@1" entry below the controller its connected to - as the usb article points out
we can see the 2 disks connected on the ATA bus of your fw800 (ata-3@20000 & ata-4@1f000)
so i think to boot the disk directly with openfirmware u would type:

boot ata-3/disk,\yaboot
or
boot ata-4/disk,\yaboot

this could be incorrect u have to see the devalias for the ata3 + ata4 devices by typing "devalias" and checking thru to find the keyword for this device
but even after all of this.. its possible that the result would be the exact same -that it just will not boot.

the section u have highlighted with the red box indeed seems to be the fw800 extra port on the firewire controller
but i think the code that actually disables booting os9 at all would be  part of the "/rom@ff800000 /boot-rom@fff00000"
programming of the rom itself...... i have no idea how to change this openfirmware rom
but i think it the machine would ever be capable of booting it would have to have this boot-rom reprogrammed to include the mac os 9 handling codes
that are present in any other non-fw800 g4

but do i think that its possible to reflash/reprogram the bootrom?? yes sure! i think so! but requiring some advanced indepth knowledge of this openfirmware system.. undocumented + hard to find knowledge i bet!

we should try to get a thread going to point to reference info on openfirmware
http://www.firmworks.com/QuickRef.html
heres one i just found
but i think this topic deserves its own thread;)

its very ironic people are able to load Linux onto old powermac g4 fw800s but not mac os 9 .. gg apple;)


Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on March 31, 2014, 12:35:31 PM
i attempted to get this up and running today. no chance. i also think we have to hack the open firmware :-)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 31, 2014, 12:39:04 PM
i attempted to get this up and running today. no chance. i also think we have to hack the open firmware :-)

Determining BootROM or Firmware Version
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2568

so theres two roms at play here: the BOOT Rom and the MAC OS Rom
Quote
Production information
ROM revision: $77D.44B5
Boot ROM version: 1.1f4
Mac OS ROM file version: 1.3
Serial number: XB00000000XXX-XXX
Software bundle: 694-1137
Sales order number: Not applicable
why dont u compare the BOOT Rom versions of the fw400 vs the fw800?
thats a good place to start
guaranteed they are different


im reading this now:
https://discussions.apple.com/message/18227055#18227055
ok so in this article they used some type of firmware update
that gets run in 9.1 or 9.2
so that he could install mac os x ..
where is this firmware update?

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1126?viewlocale=en_US
here it is..
Quote
Firmware Update 4.2.8 includes improvements to starting up Mac OS X from the local hard disk, FireWire target disk mode, network startup, gigabit networking (on systems with gigabit hardware), and system stability. This update also adds support for additional security options that allow the Open Firmware to be password-protected.
does this enable target disk mode for powermac g3s? nope it says AGP g4 models only

is this firmware the same thing as the "Boot rom" ? i think so?

trouble is.. u cant install this because it requires 9;) LOL
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 31, 2014, 04:34:30 PM
I forgot to mention Chris that I did try to boot the macos9 disk and there was a circle with a line through it much like a non-smoking sign without the cigarette. Just wouldn't boot.

The 4 different jpg's I placed here are the two different mdd's - 2 jpgs for fw400 - 2 jpgs for fw800. The fifth photo jpg is the comparison between the two mdd openfirmware boots. The boot Rom versions for open firmware are exactly the same number etc. the only difference is the red box that I put in there. So the same openfirmware boot rom(motherboard) but different computer boot rom.

The firmware on my fw400 model is 4.4.8f2
The firmware on my fw800 model is 4.6.0f1

It does say previous to the red square I marked in the photo that it was a programmers switch - whether that is the point for the switch between the two - boot vs nonboot - maybe it would be the search for the line of code that refers to this?

[/quote]
so theres two roms at play here: the BOOT Rom and the MAC OS Rom
[/quote]

So the openformware Boot rom opens the ports to allow input/output - and even when I tried to boot up at this point from o/f boot rom it wouldn't - so it must the boot rom of the computer not the openfirmware boot that is the culprit because both openfirmware boot ROM are the same - refer to photo jpg fw400a and fw800a.

So there must be a openfirmware boot rom and a motherboard boot rom and a macos rom - more spanners in the works? who knows?

So anybody know how to hack the o/f Boot ROM comp Boot ROM or flash it?

I'm sure someone in this group knows whats going on here - some secrets that they may be able to tell us about what is happening.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 31, 2014, 06:48:53 PM
I just read the above post written by me - bloody confusing.

In other words if the computer firmware for the fw400 and the fw800 are different.
And the openfirmware boot are the same then what does that mean?

Something to do with the computer firmware?
So if the Fw4oo firmware could be loaded into the Fw800 firmware we would have a
macos9 bootable system with working fw800 and usb2 ports wouldn't we - since these ports are opened up at the level of openfirmware.

Anybody's thoughts?

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 31, 2014, 06:57:58 PM
So if the Fw4oo firmware could be loaded into the Fw800 firmware we would have a
macos9 bootable system with working fw800 and usb2 ports wouldn't we - since these ports are opened up at the level of openfirmware.

exactly.. but how does this get accomplished?
short of pulling both bios chips off each motherboard + copying the contents of the fw400 to the fw800'c bios chip.. with a chip programmer, and then reattaching the chips.. if they are even viewable on the mainboards that is..

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 31, 2014, 07:03:45 PM
So the openformware Boot rom opens the ports to allow input/output - and even when I tried to boot up at this point from o/f boot rom it wouldn't - so it must the boot rom of the computer not the openfirmware boot that is the culprit because both openfirmware boot ROM are the same - refer to photo jpg fw400a and fw800a.

i believe this statement made by you is incorrect/false.
the "fff00000" this is not a version.. but rather a location..
the computer is saying .. "i have located teh bootrom..and it is located at "fff00000" same way that your house is located at 123 ABC street.
this is not a version code.. the fact that u see the same fff00000 on each image is nothing to do with the version or contents of the boot rom,
but rather its "address" - remember this text u took a picture of is the output of a command telling the computer to list its device tree

the rom@ff800000 is the actual chip hardware address
and the next like about "Bootrom" is the firmware file.rom inside that chip..
if u notice the next line down is called "macos" thats probably a copy of the macos rom that gets copied there
so theres two roms stored inside the chip... if not maybe "macos" is a program or saved settings .. but i doubt it i think its a copy of the "macos rom" like the one that mactron has shared with you.. perhaps theres some way within openfirmware to query these roms to see the version attribute.

according to the article
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2568

the directions to see bootrom version are displayed the first thing u see when opening openfirmware
Quote
1. Shut down.
2. Start up and hold down cmd-opt-o-f
3. The Boot ROM Revision is displayed at the top of the screen.
4. Type "bye" followed by <return> to continue starting up in Mac OS.

i think the "firmware" + boot rom are the same thing.

so u want to figure out how to put The firmware on *fw400 model 4.4.8f2*
onto the firmware on the fw800 model -- overwriting the 4.6.0f1 firmware
which means u would have to find some type of firmware flashing utility that runs on OSX to do this
and have both machines with OSX  installations and somehow backup the rom on the fw400
and then flash it on the fw800.

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on March 31, 2014, 08:41:01 PM
What you said makes much more sense - I was getting a little confused about all this.

If we could get the fw400 and fw800 roms and compare we would definitely see the difference but who - you know maybe a macos9 programmer from Apple is checking us out  8) hopefully they can lead us in the right direction.

Come on down fellas and help us boot macos9 on the G4 fw800 macs and the G5's.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on March 31, 2014, 10:48:44 PM
I check this thread everyday... and it gives a terrible case of bad Deja Vu...

Quote
This is like an old wound that never heals...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on April 01, 2014, 12:37:26 AM
I can imagine ;D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 01, 2014, 05:18:37 AM
according to this site http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/clfs/view/svn/ppc/appendices/macmiscellany.html open firmware can be changed by an install of osx. so maybe we just have to find the right osx version that lets us boot os9?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 01, 2014, 08:10:04 AM
also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on April 01, 2014, 10:28:05 AM
also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?
Yaboot is installed on the hard disk not in firmware and it can't load Mac Os 9 AFAIK :(
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 01, 2014, 10:48:44 AM
also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?
Yaboot is installed on the hard disk not in firmware and it can't load Mac Os 9 AFAIK :(

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=762.0;attach=248;image)(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=762.0;attach=250;image)(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=762.0;attach=252;image)(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=762.0;attach=254;image)

Quote
packages: deblocker, disk-label, obp-tftp, telnet, mac-parts, mac-files, hfs-plus-files, fat-files, iso-9660-files, bootinfo-loader, xcoff-loader, pre-loader, elf-loader, usb-his-class, usb-ms-class, usb-audio-class, sbp2-disk, ata-disk, atapi-disk, bootpath-search, terminal-emulator
if u look carefully it seems the rom has a "toolkit" of certain software packages built into itself..
this yaboot seems to be one of them, it would have to be independant of the disk because u can stilll
use this command to boot from a usb drive with no hard drive or mac os 9 "install" installed
these packages seem to be neccessary to be independant of the drives contents and
barebones essentials for being able to function and access files + boot

we know aliases is a section with keynames referring to hardware devices for easy reference in typed commands
but what about "options" ?  i wonder what is stored there.. or if theres a way to list these options the same way that you would list the aliases with the "Devalias" command that was referred to in the usb article..  heres another one

http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20060301112336384

maybe this "Bootinfo-loader" package simply was altered to remove the code that boots mac os 9.
its probably a simple 1 line of code that is disabling it from working .. thats all that would be necessary to "disable" the boot

lokki: check this out for a bit more info:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeople.ffii.org%2F~zoobab%2Fbh.udev.org%2Ffilez%2Fapple%2Fmac6100%2FBootX.pdf&ei=Yv06U8akB4Kj2QXe54CACA&usg=AFQjCNGpzbOkWJT-alUgTOqtxsdflzwsKg&sig2=P8AvZQFALaj58djJ0ijZUg
Quote

The Macintosh has used a more or less unchanged boot mechanism for over a decade. Even
with initial introduction of OpenFirmware, little changed. The advent of the iMac, and later Mac OS
X, has altered the boot sequence significantly. This paper contains a cursory look at OpenFirmware,
the booting mechanisms used by various operating systems that run on the Power Macintosh (such
as Linux, NetBSD and OpenBSD), as well as the different booting mechanics of several generations
of Macintosh hardware. Particular emphasis will be paid to the boot process of Mac OS X (from the
firmware up to early kernel initialization) and its bootloader, BootX.

http://www.dialectronics.com/Words/OF_Part_I.shtml
http://www.dialectronics.com/Words/OF_Part_II.shtml
Quote
The child nodes under /packages are specific support packages necessary for bootstrapping an operating system.

http://www.openfirmware.org/1275/mejohnson/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware
from a quick read it seems to code openfirmware u need to be familiar with
a language called Forth.. "Open Firmware may be accessed through its Forth language shell interface"

and or perhaps its subdivision called "macforth"
http://www.amazon.com/MacFORTH-Programming-hands-introduction-programming/dp/B00071QF1K
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 01, 2014, 12:23:21 PM
also apparently any linux install will install yaboot (boot loader) into open firmware as well. maybe we can try to install linux on a fw800 and from yaboot we get the option to boot os9?

but if the linux installation process is somehow able to modify the openfirmare rom there must be a way to give it the normal "mac os 9 booting" version of the rom aswell.
if the rom is indeed a normal bios chip.. there should be a way to flash it like any other computer..

perhaps if Linux was installed on BOTH machines, we could use some type of linux program to copy the rom contents to a file..
and then copy the rom to the fw800 machine and use the same rom linux utility to flash the rom!!!!!!

we know the rom is flashable.. or apple would never have released firmware updates!!!!
first step
we need to find a program capable of copying the contents of the rom to a file
whether this app is in osx or linux.. is the question
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on April 01, 2014, 01:04:06 PM
The linux way goes to nowhere. Yaboot is chained to BootX.
BootX instead of load Mac Os ROM it load Yaboot, and Yaboot load Linux or Mac Os X but no Mac Os 9.

This is a summary of the classic Mac OS boot process for New World machines. ( all the G4 family and others...)

1. Machine runs low level initialization

(Boot chime)

2. OpenFirmware is started (built the device tree)

3. OpenFirmware looks for a "boot-device" (a default is stored in the firmware)

4. OpenFirmware loads a file of type ’tbxi’ "Mac OS Rom" from the partition (in a blessed System Folder)

5. Mac OS Rom is started
6. Mac OS Rom starts Mac OS

So the key point is 4.
The first thing to check is boot-device command to see if a boot path is correct.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 01, 2014, 01:14:45 PM
i already did point 4. changed boot-device manually (in openfirmware) to point to the os9 partition. no luck so far.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 01, 2014, 02:42:53 PM
http://www.firmworks.com/QuickRef.html

i really think even if we type the command right and do everything right with openfirmware
as outlined here: https://sites.google.com/site/shawnhcorey/howto-boot-apple-powerpcs-from-a-usb-drive-in-open-firmware
its just gonna "not work" because at a core lower level they have disabled this.. like a lamp thats been unplugged from the wall
it COULD work.. if we could just plug it in.. but we dont know how;) so its almost easier to worry about reading the contents of the rom to a file
if we could at least get a hex dump of the rom we could see about flashing the fw400 firmware onto the fw800..
guaranteed thats where this "disable" code is.. the only other palce it could be is actually embedded into a secondary bios chip but i think we
would know about any hardware differences beetween the two models.. and there are none? except for the fw800 port..
guaranteed these machines are capable of booting os9 with the right rom file flashed!!!!!!
when i enter openfirmware on my powermac g3 it says:
Code: [Select]
openfirmware 3.1.1what does your mac say for
Code: [Select]
dev /rom/boot-rom .properties
my powermac g3 450mhz says: (partial result i didnt type it all out)
Code: [Select]
name boot-rom
write-characteristic flash
model powermac1,1 version 1.1f4 built on 04/09/99 @ time
BootROM-version
BootROM-build-date
result
info

but right there.. to me the fact it says "write-characteristic : Flash" means this can be backed up, copied + overwritten same as any other bios chip on a pc

this page has some more examples on booting:
http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi/man?ofwboot+8.macppc+NetBSD-current

Quote
boot [boot-device [boot-file]] [options]
boot-device  primary bootloader location
boot-file    kernel location
options      flags passed to the kernel (see below)

so u can specify the "boot-file" on which "boot-device" and also give additional "options"
has anyone tried
Code: [Select]
boot hd:,macos.rom \\:tbxiwith the macos.rom on the hard drive , i guess in the root?
if the macos.rom is even the boot-file
if it is the boot-file perhaps u would write:
Code: [Select]
boot hd:,\System Folder\Mac OS ROM \\:tbxiand see if it boots normally

i just tried this.. and got an error saying "cant open macos.rom" obviously because i dont have the file on my hard drive.
can someone try this?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_ROM
Quote
New World ROM Macs are the first Macs where direct usage of the Open Firmware (OF) subsystem is encouraged. Previous PCI Power Macs used Open Firmware for booting, but the implementation was not complete; in these machines OF was only expected to probe PCI devices, then immediately hand control over to the Mac OS ROM. Because of this, versions 1.0.5 and 2.x had several serious bugs, as well as missing functionality (such as being able to load files from a HFS partition or a TFTP server). Apple also set the default input and output devices to ttya (the modem port on beige Macs), which made it difficult for normal users to get to Open Firmware; to do so it was necessary to either hook up a terminal, or change the Open Firmware settings from inside Mac OS using a tool such as Boot Variables or Apple's System Disk.

The New World ROM introduced a much-improved version of the Open Firmware interpreter, version 3.0, which added many missing features, fixed most of the bugs from earlier versions, and had the capability to run CHRP boot scripts. The Toolbox ROM was embedded inside a CHRP script in the System Folder called "Mac OS ROM", along with a short loader stub and a copy of the Happy Mac icon suitable for display from Open Firmware. Once the ROM was loaded from disk, the Mac boot sequence continued as usual. As before, Open Firmware could also run a binary boot loader, and version 3.0 added support for ELF objects as well as the XCOFF files versions 1.0.5 and 2.0 supported. Also, version 3.0 (as well as some of the last releases of version 2.x, starting with the PowerBook 3400) officially supported direct access to the Open Firmware command prompt from the console (by setting the auto-boot? variable to false from Mac OS, or by holding down Command-Option-O-F at boot).

One major difference between Old World ROM Macs and New World ROM Macs, at least in classic Mac OS, is that the Gestalt selector for the machine type is no longer usable; all New World ROM Macs use the same mach ID, 406 decimal, and the actual machine ID is encoded in the "model" and "compatible" properties of the root node of the Open Firmware device tree. The New World ROM also sets the "compatible" property of the root node to "MacRISC2" (machines that can boot classic Mac OS using "Mac OS ROM") or "MacRISC3" (machines that can only boot OS X or another Unix-like system).

It is somewhat easier to boot a non-Mac-OS operating system on a New World system, and indeed OpenBSD's bootloader only works on a New World system.

The simplest way to distinguish a New World ROM Mac is that it will have a factory built-in USB port. No Old World ROM Mac had a USB port as factory equipment; instead, they used ADB for keyboard and mouse, and mini-DIN-8 "modem" and "printer" serial ports for other peripherals. Also, New World ROM Macs generally do not have a built-in floppy drive.

CHRP boot scripts?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=CHRP+boot+scripts&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=jzg7U-SQNYfAqAX084CYAQ&gws_rd=cr

booting with yaboot:
http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/doc/yaboot-howto.html/index.en.html#contents

also note: there are two versions of 'bootX', one only compatible with oldworld macs, and one for macosx, two programs, with same name
http://penguinppc.org/bootloaders/
Quote
BootX

BootX is a Mac OS-based bootloader which is only usable on Old World Power Macs. It requires a bootable Mac OS installation.
The Mac OS X bootloader is also called BootX. These are very different programs written by different people, with an unfortunate namespace collision.

also:
http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/category/mac-rom-hacking/
this guy was able to hack the rom somehow to change the start up sound ..
if hes able to do that..

http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gwm1h/macos9/
http://www.gla.ac.uk/~gwm1h/macos9/Z-G4_FirmwareUpdate_2.4.smi.hqx

so what is it that this file updates when run?
does it update just the macos.rom part?
or the entire /rom portion of openfirmware?
is it:
a) openfirmware version itself
b) the boot-rom within the openfirmware rom
c) the macos rom within the openfirmware rom
or
d) the mac os rom within the harddrive


Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 01, 2014, 04:52:15 PM
i guess if i want to explore reading the rom to a file somehow..
im going to have to install linux.. not sure if my powermac g3 will be able to handle ubuntu but giving it a shot now.. latest version is 14.x
http://mirror.vorboss.net/ubuntu-releases//trusty/ but theres no powerpc image there so

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/precise/release/
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/precise/release/ubuntu-12.04-desktop-powerpc.iso
apparently u can boot up with just this cd without actually writing the os to your drive
maybe thats enough to try to download a utility to read the rom file?

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 01, 2014, 05:23:22 PM
i inserted ubuntu cd, typed this into openfirmware:
Code: [Select]
boot cd:,\install\yabootand its booting;)

i did notice it said "Loading ELF" aswell

now i bet it takes 3 hrs to load off the cd;) lol
but its booting ubuntu 12.04! on my g3 450mhz

update:its *REAL* slow running off the cd tho..
probably better to install it to a compact flash or ssd
but it looks pretty freaking cool! :)

update:im trying v5.x of ubuntu now to see if its a leaner + liter version 12.04 had alot
of ui + "eye candy" efects that were too much for my
radeon 7000 + g3;)

update: 5.x ubuntu version didnt boot up correctly.. left me at a black screen with a pointer + seems hung now..
so dont use ubuntu 5

update: trying version 10
http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/ubuntu-dvd/ports/releases/10.04/release/ubuntu-10.04-desktop-powerpc.iso

update: version 10 appears to boot up nicely... its alot more responsive + usable on the g3 450mhz then 12 was.. its probably alot better when installed off a compact flash or ssd or even a hard drive (not booting from cd)

re: flashing the bios
apparently u can install FREEDOS fromwithin linux
and use updflash.exe to read + write bios updates
at least u can on a normal pc..
wouldnt that be cool if it works;)
seeing windows help mac os out via linux LOL

would be alot simpler if anyone knew of a utility for OSX that could read/write to the flash rom
maybe it might be possible to do all of this via nvram command directly in openfirmware interface if we knew how to write a script to do this

Quote
"Other Open Firmware settings can be changed using the nvram command while the system software is running." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware
if this lets u write to the flash ram to save settings then maybe its possible to open a file on the harddrive and load it as a new version of the rom... first step would be figuring out how to save the current rom as a file tho
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 02, 2014, 12:31:16 AM
try this site to choose a distro:

http://penguinppc.org/about-2/distributions/

the most performance can be gained by running a self-compiled linux i.e. gentoo :-) but that will take literally days on a g3.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 02, 2014, 04:11:20 AM
The linux way goes to nowhere. Yaboot is chained to BootX.
BootX instead of load Mac Os ROM it load Yaboot, and Yaboot load Linux or Mac Os X but no Mac Os 9.

From PPC luddite guide to debian part 5:
"One bug that qualifies as having been around long before is the infamous disappearing partition bug. Every time you run through the Debian installer, it somehow messes up your Mac OS 9 drivers making any OS 9 partition unbootable. It was a nasty surprise for me, but let me take away all the suspense. Simply boot with your Mac OS install CD, launch Drive Setup, highlight your hard drive from the list, and from the Functions menu select Update Driver. Problem solved. You will now be able to boot into OS 9."
"Another thing you should know about OS 9, never use the Startup Disk control panel to choose a startup disk. It'll mess up yaboot and you won't be able to boot into Linux. If this should happen to you, reset the pram (hold down command + option + p + r keys on startup) and yaboot will be restored.

Dual booting between Linux and OS 9 also has an issue with system clocks. While your Debian system is set to UTC time, your Mac system is set to local time, so though your Linux time may be correct, you Mac clock can be several hours off. Solve this with:

sudo nano /etc/default/rcS

and change UTC=yes to UTC=no. Now when you boot into OS 9, the time should display correctly. Also, if you ever need to change timezones in Debian, you can use:

sudo dpkg-reconfigure tzdata"
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on April 02, 2014, 08:07:37 AM
The linux way goes to nowhere. Yaboot is chained to BootX.
BootX instead of load Mac Os ROM it load Yaboot, and Yaboot load Linux or Mac Os X but no Mac Os 9.

From PPC luddite guide to debian part 5:
"One bug that qualifies as having been around long before is the infamous disappearing partition bug. Every time you run through the Debian installer, it somehow messes up your Mac OS 9 drivers making any OS 9 partition unbootable. It was a nasty surprise for me, but let me take away all the suspense. Simply boot with your Mac OS install CD, launch Drive Setup, highlight your hard drive from the list, and from the Functions menu select Update Driver. Problem solved. You will now be able to boot into OS 9."
"Another thing you should know about OS 9, never use the Startup Disk control panel to choose a startup disk. It'll mess up yaboot and you won't be able to boot into Linux. If this should happen to you, reset the pram (hold down command + option + p + r keys on startup) and yaboot will be restored.

Dual booting between Linux and OS 9 also has an issue with system clocks. While your Debian system is set to UTC time, your Mac system is set to local time, so though your Linux time may be correct, you Mac clock can be several hours off. Solve this with:

sudo nano /etc/default/rcS

and change UTC=yes to UTC=no. Now when you boot into OS 9, the time should display correctly. Also, if you ever need to change timezones in Debian, you can use:

sudo dpkg-reconfigure tzdata"

Everything is OK. But Yaboot can't boot Mac Os 9. This doesn't mean that a Mac can't do dual or triple boot with Mac Os 9 or  Linux and/or Mac Os X.
Just different bootloaders chained to a main one.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 08:47:04 AM
mactron: the goal of putting linux on the mac is not to boot os9 with yaboot.. its to try to first read the rom file contents to a file.. and once thats done see if it can FLASH the rom of the openfirmware... why? because i believe that this is the place where this has been disabled, inside the openfirmware programming itself.. thats why noone has ever fixed this before because the code is in a place u cant touch.. on the firmware/bios chip itself, if we can find a way to read from the chip to a a file (to backup the rom) from inside linux then u can copy the fw400's openfirmware rom to the fw800. i only say linux because mac os x  may have protective programming to not let u do this..whereas linux may allow for more raw access to the hardware. doing this in 9 is possible too. but it wouldnt be possible on the fw800 obviously it cant boot to 9, but it can boot linux + X.

but, while on the topic:
Quote
If you are using the computer in a multi-user environment and the other users prefer Mac OS X you can (easily) configure yaboot to automatically load Mac OS X or OS 9 instead of Ubuntu. -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/YabootConfigurationForMacintoshPowerPCsDualBoot

http://lowendmac.com/2010/create-a-triple-boot-mac-with-os-9-os-x-and-linux/

this page makes reference to booting mac os with yaboot but of course this doesnt mean this will work on a fw800 mac  BUT THIS ALL REQUIRES A REAL HARDWARE INSTALL OF LINUX WHICH IM NOT DOING if someone else wants to try to get yaboot to boot 9. feel free. but this would only probably work on a machine that already boots 9 to begin with.

protoolsle5guy: i was using ubuntu not debian, and im not actually installing the linux distro but just booting into it off the cd.. i am not writing anything to do with linux to the hard drive at all. version 10.04 lucid lynx works well for this purpose. im just booting into the live cd to try to get an app to try to access the flash rom inside the mac.

(http://lunduke.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/desktopplaces.png)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on April 02, 2014, 09:02:21 AM
Ubuntu is debian with eyecandy and non free soft.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on April 02, 2014, 09:33:48 AM
Yes, I've misunderstand the whole thing...
... no offense but read/write the Mac Os firmware with linux is the most crazy idea I ever heard. You can be sure that I wish to be wrong...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 10:34:37 AM
ha! i am posting now from inside firefox v3.6.3 on ubuntu 10.04 booted from live cd;)
it works suprisingly well! on this old powermac g3 450mhz;) i am amazed!

i have found this app:
https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/applications/lucid/flashrom/
but i need to update my repositories or figure out how to download install without apt
because its not working so far to install. probably because the info for this distro on the cd
is outdated... if i was to do a proper install to a harddrive it would update this info i think
and the apt-get links would work but they do not because i am in trial mode on the cd only

Quote
It supports a wide range of DIP32, PLCC32, DIP8, SO8/SOIC8, TSOP32, and TSOP40 chips, which use various protocols such as LPC, FWH, parallel flash, or SPI.

The tool can be used to flash BIOS/firmware images for example -- be it proprietary BIOS images or coreboot (previously known as LinuxBIOS) images.

i think this app might able to see the chip.. maybe not. but maybe it will;)

http://flashrom.org/Downloads (maybe this link is the same app?)
of course a powermac is not listed under http://flashrom.org/Supported_hardware
so maybe this is a crazy idea? but sometimes crazy ideas end up working! :D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 02, 2014, 10:50:00 AM
you cannot install anything on a live cd!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 02, 2014, 10:51:56 AM
but i think there would be another path to go, regarding booting os9. we could try to implement a mac boot rom (for os9) that looks like one for osx. so open firmware thinks it is booting osx when in reality it is booting os9.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 10:58:07 AM
you cannot install anything on a live cd!
sure u can -- it just wont be there if u reboot ..
i have downloaded flashrom but icant compile it because im missing some packages. pciutils-devel + the like. the real problem is im using 10.04 and the repositories are not linking properly so aptitude installer is useless

i need to find teh right repository url and then update it under "software sources" in "ubuntu software center"

update: using the software center in ubuntu im trying to instlal the pre-requisite developer tools for compiling the flashrom app i just installed the 'pciutils development package' (which i found in software center by searching for pciutils) theres a few more listed at http://flashrom.org/Downloads#Releases that i need to install before im able to do a proper "make" + "make install"

update: that may have been all it needed.. i just did a "make" command and it seems to be compiling !!!!!!

the binary is now in the directory on my desktop and can be run by typing  './flashrom' to execute but its asking me to "select a programmer" -- ok here it says "to choose the mainboard of this computer use the parameter 'internal'.. other valid choices are dummy, gfxnvidia,drkaiser, satasii, serprog, buspirate_spi, pony_spi, nicintel, nicintel_spi, ogp_spi, linux_spi

Quote
Usage: ./flashrom [-h|-R|-L|-p <programmername>[:<parameters>] [-c <chipname>]
[-E|(-r|-w|-v) <file>] [-l <layoutfile> [-i <imagename>]...] [-n] [-f]]
[-V[V[V]]] [-o <logfile>]

 -h | --help                        print this help text
 -R | --version                     print version (release)
 -r | --read <file>                 read flash and save to <file>
 -w | --write <file>                write <file> to flash
 -v | --verify <file>               verify flash against <file>
 -E | --erase                       erase flash memory
 -V | --verbose                     more verbose output
 -c | --chip <chipname>             probe only for specified flash chip
 -f | --force                       force specific operations (see man page)
 -n | --noverify                    don't auto-verify
 -l | --layout <layoutfile>         read ROM layout from <layoutfile>
 -i | --image <name>                only flash image <name> from flash layout
 -o | --output <logfile>            log output to <logfile>
 -L | --list-supported              print supported devices
 -p | --programmer <name>[:<param>] specify the programmer device. One of
    internal, dummy, gfxnvidia, drkaiser, satasii, serprog, buspirate_spi,
    pony_spi, nicintel, nicintel_spi, ogp_spi, linux_spi.

You can specify one of -h, -R, -L, -E, -r, -w, -v or no operation.
If no operation is specified, flashrom will only probe for flash chips.
ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$

ok i see .. i have to type:
./flashrom -p internal

It attemped to start:

Quote
ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$ ./flashrom -p internal
flashrom v0.9.7-r1711 on Linux 2.6.32-21-powerpc (ppc)
flashrom is free software, get the source code at http://www.flashrom.org

Calibrating delay loop... OK.
Processor detection/init failed.
Aborting.
Error: Programmer initialization failed.
ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$

this is probably due to the differences between pc motherboads + the powerpc hardware:( it could probably work but would need to be recoded by the software developers i bet to be able to find the chips on a powerpc system.. so this probably the end of the road for this idea;(

Quote
ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Desktop/flashrom-0.9.7$ ./flashrom -p dummy
flashrom v0.9.7-r1711 on Linux 2.6.32-21-powerpc (ppc)
flashrom is free software, get the source code at http://www.flashrom.org

Calibrating delay loop... OK.
No EEPROM/flash device found.
Note: flashrom can never write if the flash chip isn't found automatically.

well maybe this app will only work on a amd/intel pc motherboards... it was worth a try.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 12:35:04 PM
but i think there would be another path to go, regarding booting os9. we could try to implement a mac boot rom (for os9) that looks like one for osx. so open firmware thinks it is booting osx when in reality it is booting os9.

this book reviews a bunch of the things mactron was saying about tbxi
perhaps it has a bit more info for you
http://tinyurl.com/pcup93k (preview)
http://venom630.free.fr/pdf/OSXInternals.pdf (full book)
this book has alot of specific info on openfirmware + bootloading etc! take a look!


i dont have a fw800 mac to try to test with... but what i do have is an 867 mdd, that will not boot from the mac os 9 install cd..
do u think that there is some similarities between these two scenarios? i mean, do u think they (apple) would have disabled the booting of the mac os 9 retail cd on the mdd series... in the same fashion or technique that they have disabled booting Mac OS 9 altogether on the fw800?
where would this modification take place? if not in the open firmware itself???
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 02, 2014, 02:40:47 PM
Quote
sure u can -- it just wont be there if u reboot ..

well technically you install to ram then :-) but as you said, it will be gone after a reboot.

i don't know what they did to disable booting of retail os9 on mdd's. in fact i think it just did not work they did not make it not work intentionally.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 03:51:17 PM
to Lokki or Jakl
try this:
use a fresh 20gb-40gb-80gb hd
install into the fw400 mac
install both osx and os9 onto the same partition (yes we all know this isnt the best idea to do usualy but this is for testing purposes)
make sure u can boot to both os'es
take that same hard drive out and insert it into the fw800
boot the mdd fw800 up in OSX
and open a terminal
and try:
Code: [Select]
bless -info /and see if it says
finderinfo[0]: => Blessed System Folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
finderinfo[3]: => OS 9 blessed folder is /System Folder"

this bless command line tool can recognize mac os 9 blessed folder..

im betting it will see it just fine, and like i said it is not a problem of it "just not working" but its been disabled by apple on purpose when it could have worked all along.

if u already have os9 + osx already installed on seperate drives maybe u can use:
bless -info /PathToDrive/ etc

heres my output when i run the command on my powermac g3 B&W:
Quote
$ bless -info /
finderinfo[0]:   7244 => Blessed System Folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
finderinfo[1]:      0 => No Startup App folder (ignored anyway)
finderinfo[2]:      0 => Open-folder linked list empty
finderinfo[3]:     31 => OS 9 blessed folder is /System Folder
finderinfo[4]:      0 => Unused field unset
finderinfo[5]:   7244 => OS X blessed folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
64-bit VSDB volume id:  0x174C8C1A011D70E1
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on April 02, 2014, 08:31:50 PM
Okay Chris did what you asked - First of all this is a fresh install from
the fw400 DVD which installed 10.2.6 as well as macos9 start up and classic - same system folder.

Here is what "bless -info /" got.

finderinfo[0]:      2455 => Blessed System Folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
finderinfo[1]:            0 => Startup App folder is
finderinfo[2]:            0 => 1st dir in open-folder list is
finderinfo[3]:     33368 => Classic blessed folder is /System Folder
finderinfo[4]:            0 => Thought-to-be-unused field points to
finderinfo[5]:       2455 => OS X blessed folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
64-bit VSDB volume id: 0xB31A58CB04FC560C
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 08:44:49 PM
are u running mac os x leopard? my output was from tiger... seems they changed the language a bit
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on April 02, 2014, 08:57:37 PM
As you can see the version it's the original DVD for the fw400 which has 10.2.6 and macos9.2.2

And yes I have taken out the HD out of fw800 and put it back into the fw400 and it all worked again
beautifully.

By the way 10.2.6 version was called Jaguar I think.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 09:03:32 PM
yeah see they've purposefully just unhooked it and made it work this way.. its the rom chip itself.. i bet if u could physically find the chip on the board..
and desolder each chip and swap them (obviously your not goign to do that) but if u could i bet it would boot right up.
to fix it u would have to reprogram the chip somehow.. its the only way it would make it work.. i think we should probably just give up on this;)

u should try out installing ubuntu tho! it works amazing.. i was really impressed.
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/releases/13.10/release/lubuntu-13.10-desktop-powerpc.iso (v13)
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/pending/trusty-desktop-powerpc.iso (v14)
these are the latest images.. i havent tried them yet but 10 worked great on a powermac g3 + 12 booted fine aswell
download the cd + try it out! im going to check out 14.04

oops these are Lubuntu not ubuntu.. different distro.

update: i was ablet o get v5 to boot by specifying a different image (they are listed if u press TAB at the yaboot prompt (black screen))
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on April 02, 2014, 09:19:04 PM
Okay Chris this now is a different reading when I started the fw800 mdd on an external HD with 10.4.11 off a seritek sata card.

Here is what "bless -info /" got.

finderinfo[0]:   569847 => Blessed System Folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
finderinfo[1]:            0 => No Blessed System File
finderinfo[2]:            0 => Open-folder linked list empty
finderinfo[3]:   664541 => OS 9 blessed folder is <missing>
finderinfo[4]:            0 => Unused field unset
finderinfo[5]:   569847 => OS X blessed folder is /System/Library/CoreServices
64-bit VSDB volume id: 0xEF98368E5548CB79

While it says <missing> I think because there isn't
a macos9 system folder on the boot disk - it just has 10.4.11 installed -
However there are 2 different disks with os9 installed one external and one internal
that the computer is not recognizing at all.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 02, 2014, 09:29:29 PM
well the "/" means whatever drive u booted with
and the fact that it says the first line is what it is, means that this drive is selected as the default to boot from
(thats why the osx one is there twice..)

u might try experimenting with giving it different paths to try to get it to check another drive
maybe u have to map thru the /Volumes mount point
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on April 02, 2014, 09:35:35 PM
I mean as startup disks when I go into start up disks.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 04, 2014, 09:22:37 AM
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/YabootConfigurationForMacintoshPowerPCsDualBoot

in case u guys missed it..
this page claims yaboot *CAN* boot mac os 9.

2:12,\\:tbxi
the : colon character delimits between object/property, for disk it delimits partition
for filename it delimits type, the \\:tbxi means find the file with the type "tbxi"
(which are the only files that "bless -info /" shows..) so this would mean, 'on disk 2, on partition 12, find the file of tbxi type'

i was asking earlier in the thread if anyones tried to MANUALLY SPECIFY the actual filename of the mac os rom file by typing \System Folder\Mac OS ROM:tbxi
not sure if thats correct syntax, but the comma seems to delimit between disk + filename and im pretty sure the two slashes mean "look for file of type tbxi in any root level or one level down folder" because there is only 1 file per os installation with this type

anyways it seems u guys are giving up on this..
so i will too.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 04, 2014, 10:11:01 AM
i have not given up for one... but time does not permit me to "work" on it right now. but i will definitely get back to it.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blitter on April 29, 2014, 11:36:30 PM
Created an account here just to pop in and say that I have just solved this problem on my own retail MDD G4 FW800. My G4 now dual-boots between OS X Tiger and Mac OS 9.2.2, and both systems are recognized by the Startup Disk control panel. I had formatted its internal drive by using a surrogate iBook + USB enclosure and OS X Jaguar, allocating 1GB at the beginning of the drive for an OS 9 partition, leaving the rest for OS X. I also checked the "Install OS 9 drivers" box in Disk Utility so that the drive could be booted later on. I then installed OS X Tiger first as an escape hatch in case of OS 9 instability, though so far with the exception of a third-party SCSI card preventing it from booting, it has been running without any problems.

Essentially what locks native OS 9 support out of these machines, as has been suggested above, is that Open Firmware does not recognize "Mac OS ROM" as a valid tbxi file as of at least version 4.6.0, which is what the FW800 ships with. Since the FW800 and the earlier FW400 are so close in spec, I suspected that an earlier version of Open Firmware from the FW400 model would be close enough to at least boot the FW800 into OS X. Fortunately a firmware update is available from Apple for the FW400 models to fix a fan issue, bringing their firmware to version 4.4.8f2. However, Apple's firmware updaters refuse to flash the Boot ROM unless the current version is older than the desired upgrade. So, I worked around that by forcing an upgrade through Open Firmware itself. Here's how to do it on a FW800 with OS X already installed on a second partition:

- Download and install the 4.4.8f2 updater from https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/10773/apple-g4-firmware-updater-x
- Open the bundle by right-clicking (or control-clicking) on the PMG4FirmwareUpdate.app file inside /Applications/Utilities and choosing "Show Package Contents."
- Navigate to Contents/Resources and drag the "Firmware" file to the root of your startup disk.
- Make note of the partition number of your startup disk-- this is important for the next steps. On a freshly-formatted drive with OS 9 drivers, the first visible partition is 9, which in my case meant my second visible partition with OS X installed was partition number 10.
- Reboot the Mac and hold down Command-Option-O-F to boot to Open Firmware.
- Enter the following two commands, substituting your partition number after the "hd:"
    load hd:10,Firmware
    go
- With luck, the white Open Firmware prompt will disappear and you'll soon see an OS 9-style progress bar at the bottom of the screen as the Boot ROM is being flashed.
- After the Mac automatically restarts, install OS 9 using the special version for the MDD FW400 (OS9General.dmg). The OS 9 System Folder should be visible and selectable using the Startup Disk preference pane.
- Enjoy. :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 30, 2014, 04:31:39 AM
very good news! will try this and report back!

thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on April 30, 2014, 07:59:55 AM
Thank You blitter for sharing this... and welcome to Mac Os 9 Lives! Despite we are Mac Os 9 Digital Audio centric, We hope you'll stay around here...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blitter on April 30, 2014, 01:21:06 PM
One more thing: I have no idea how to restore the original 4.6.0 firmware, as it's not available for download as an updater or anything else that I can find. So if you try this and something goes wrong... you're a little stuck. Caveat emptor.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on April 30, 2014, 02:32:21 PM
the benefit is more available machines to run os9 on :-)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 01, 2014, 08:32:01 AM
Blitter... Awesome job !

2 Quick Questions...

1) Does the FW800 Port work at all under OS 9 ?

2) Did the FW800 port suffer any quirks in OS X ?

I would assume that the FW800 port is dead in OS9 and that the forced burnt Boot ROM did not effect it in OS X... but I am curious since the "alt" boot option to boot to FW (Both 400 and 800) is burnt into the Boot ROM... so I was wondering if it will still boot to a FW800 external HD with "alt" key selected since the FW400 updated Boot ROM had no code for the 800 port.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blitter on May 01, 2014, 06:24:07 PM
1) I don't have any FW800 equipment to test.
2) See #1. ;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on May 02, 2014, 04:59:27 AM
in response to the question of re-updating the firmware. i think osx will do this when it installs automatically, at least that's what i read somewhere. or maybe osx now also thinks it's a fw400 mdd and does not update.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 03, 2014, 02:53:09 AM
It does not worked in my FW800 with firmware 4.6.0f1 and OSX 10.5.6 installed. I have followed carefully the described procedure and in response to the command

load:hd (x),Firmware

the Mac reply with

load-size=fbc70 adler 32=c6c28472

then at command

go

the Mac reply with

evaluating Forth source

then CD tray is opened, the Mac reboots with black screen but no progress bar is displayed, instead the grey Apple logo appears and OSX starts to load. In the meantime the CD tray closed.
At System Information panel the firmware is still 4.6.0f1 so no success here.
Maybe we are close as never before to reflash a FW800 to have OS9 bootability but the feel is that some steps are missing... blitter, how your G4 were configured when you do the downgrade? OSX, graphic card, memory, PCI cards installed... every parameter could be important.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on May 03, 2014, 03:19:17 AM
i would first try to install tiger on it. osx can install firmware when installed so maybe it does not work with the "leopard" version.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 03, 2014, 04:20:05 AM
I have done the same procedure on a MDD FW400 also where 10.4 and 10.5 (and OS 9.2 too) are installed, in this case a reflash (of the same firmware) should be happened but again, no luck. I suspect that OS is not important, at worse a blank HD with only the Firmware file could serve the task because if this procedure is running entirely on Open Firmware it does not need to boot from a volume to be succesful but only a place where the Firmware file can be loaded.
My thoughts are that if the procedure worked then some parameters are missing (like a script or a specific sequence of commands to prepare the machine to flash) that are (maybe) performed by the Apple Installer after the machine check.
A thing I have noticed is that partitions numbers are not consecutive (as blitter said in his example) but jumps by 2, in my system I have "10" for the blank partition where OS9 will be installed and "12" where resides OSX 10.5 (I am speaking about the FW800 machine with only 2 partitions, the first blank and the second with OS 10.5 installed, both of them formatted in HFS+ Journaled but I have alse tried with a non-journaling partition with same results)

Update: I noticed that just before the screen goes blank and Mac reboot there were some text strings in output, but they apperared and disappeared too much quickly so I have made a movie with my camera and noted the lines that were:

erasing fff04000 of Micron B1 part
 flashing fff04000 of Micron B1 part


then screen goes black and reboot. So some flashing is happened but seems that changes are discarded...

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blitter on May 06, 2014, 03:51:59 AM
I had prepped an 80GB hard drive with a 1GB partition at the beginning, and the rest allocated for OS X Tiger 10.4.11, with OS 9 drivers also installed on the drive. I have a GeForce 4 Ti, I believe my MDD has 1GB of RAM installed, the DVD/CDRW combo drive, and the only other thing I had in the machine when doing the upgrade was a third-party PCI SCSI card (Advansys?) that prevented OS 9 from booting until I took it out.

BTW the command is not "load:hd (x),Firmware" it's "load hd:(x),Firmware"
Might want to try it a second time. It took me a couple of tries before it finally decided it wanted to work.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 06, 2014, 01:22:07 PM
Prepared the machine as you described: not working again but... googling around I have found that instead of

load hd:xx,Firmware
go


you can type

boot hd:xx,Firmware

with the same results. Again I believe that some steps, maybe a command line parameter, is missing. Lokki, have you tried on your machine?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on May 06, 2014, 02:11:55 PM
not yet, sorry i've been busy with life  -afro-
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 07, 2014, 02:42:18 AM
I get the same result as you Snakecoil.
Tried with the 10.4.11 first.
Then wiped HD and installed 10.2.8 in the FW800 and still the
same result with the cd drive opening and closing after the
load hd:(),Firmware and go commands.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 07, 2014, 09:17:17 AM
Maybe we can ship machines to Blitter and he can burn them for a small fee, LOL... The firmware God smiles upon him...

Just a suggestion, maybe you guys should compare the exact part number of Blitter's Logic Board to your own :)

Blitter, Can you please post your MB info. ?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 07, 2014, 12:57:52 PM
Success! :-) GREAT SUCCESS! :-)

I have found the way to start the firmware downgrade: I were right when I said a step was missing, I found the answer reading this page on Apple site

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1175 (https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1175)

If you look at point 3 of the article it say:

Press and hold in the Power button until you hear a long tone or see the Power button light flashing repeatedly. Release the Power button when you hear the tone or see the Power button light flashing. The update starts automatically.

And this is exactly what is needed to do: starting the Mac keeping pressed the power button! :-)

In brief here are the steps to follow:

1) Copy the Firmware file extracted in the way Blitter has said some posts ago, no matter about the OSX installed, a blank initialized partition is good. If the partition is the first in Disk Utility list its number should be 10

2) Shut off the Mac and be prepared to do the following steps as quick as possible

3) Press and keep pressed the front Power Button until it flashes, or until you hear a continuous tone

4) Release the Power Button and be prepared to press the key combination to enter Open Firmware (Cmd + Alt + O + F)

5) When you hear the Boing sound of reboot keep pressed the Open Firmware keys until the prompt comes out

6) At the prompt enter the following line

load hd:xx,Firmware

where, of course, the "xx" is the number of the partition where the "Firmware" file is

7) At the next prompt digit

go

8) The screen becomes black, the progress bar appear and the CD tray is ejected

9) When progress bar has reached the end the Mac reboots, the CD tray close and you have an OS9 bootable FW800 PowerMac :-)

The Info panel reports correctly 4.4.8f2 as firmware version and the OS9 boot is available as option in Startup Disk preference panel. I used the OS9General.dmg extracted from the Install disks of my other FW400 MDD.
OS9 boot went fine, I skipped the annoying registration screen pressing CMD + Q and everithing seems ok.
For who is interested in the FW800 port I can confirm it works well under OS9 but I don't know about its speed in this environment if someone has some disk benchmark tool to suggest I will be happy to do some test. In OSX 10.4 the speed is full 80 Mb/s, I have tested it with Xbench and obtained 76 Mb/s with an old 320 Gb Seagate Freeagent powered directly from Firewire 800 port.
I don't know anything about the Bluetooth and Airport Extreme functionality since I haven't these devices.
I will perform further tests in the days to come but until now I am really really happy! :-)

About the firmware upgrade back to 4.6.0f1 I don't know... I accepted the risk of downgrade because this FW800 machine was abandoned in my Mac stuff from long time but if the MDD is a tool of your job I can't reccomend to do this step until you are absolutely sure that none of the functionality is missed or altered.

If Blitter has performed this modification long time ago maybe he can share with us his experience. Here all seems to work very well! :-)

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on May 07, 2014, 01:43:42 PM
Congratulations !!  ;D ;D :D ;D ;D

To test the Firewire speed (and others hard disks) you can use:

https://www.adrive.com/public/hpY8s3/QuickBench.sit
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 07, 2014, 02:36:18 PM
Thanks MacTron, but the most part of congratulations must go to Blitter first, without his input we would still dream of an OS9 bootable FW800 machine :-D
I have just done some benchmarks under OS9 using QuickBench and the maximum I have read is 34.42 Mb/s so I can confirm that FW800 devices runs at FW400 speed (but under OSX they run back at their full FW800 speed).
Just for fun I have tried to launch Quickbench in Classic under 10.4.11 too but in this way the volume drag'n'drop is not supported so Quickbench can't lock a drive to perform the speed tests.
In the next days I will re-install OS9 / OSX 10.4 / OSX 10.5 from scratch and if all will go as I hope I will migrate my FW400 system to the new one :-)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 07, 2014, 08:25:48 PM
Now we're ready for a G5 Macos9 on Steroids... :D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 07, 2014, 09:14:37 PM
Thank you blitter and SnakeCoil for the hard work to realize many of our dreams come true finally.

I am still in the process of reinstalling and testing but it looks good for the moment.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 07, 2014, 10:13:26 PM
Quote
This is like an old wound that never heals...

Finally... it heals with confirmed success :)

No more vague stories of a friend who knows a friend that is running 9.2.2 on FW800... real facts !

Wow, tests are just like I expected.. FW800 runs at 400 Speed in OS 9 and 800 in X... The last test is to try to boot to external FW hard drive via the 800 Port by holding "alt" at bootup...

I am guessing the hard drive won't be seen on the 800 port until OS is loaded (Since firmware is from a FW400), but I am curious.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Syntho on May 07, 2014, 10:18:45 PM
Would it be worth it to get a 1.42ghz FW800 model to have a faster CPU running OS9 now?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 07, 2014, 10:37:54 PM
Since you already have a FW400... you can buy a 1.42 Processor board and simply install that
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 07, 2014, 10:49:25 PM
Quote
This is like an old wound that never heals...

Finally... it heals with confirmed success :)

No more vague stories of a friend who knows a friend that is running 9.2.2 on FW800... real facts !

Wow, tests are just like I expected.. FW800 runs at 400 Speed in OS 9 and 800 in X... The last test is to try to boot to external FW hard drive via the 800 Port by holding "alt" at bootup...

I am guessing the hard drive won't be seen on the 800 port until OS is loaded (Since firmware is from a FW400), but I am curious.

Well Diehard I'm happy to announce that it does boot on firewire800 from pressing 'alt' at startup. I have an old rockstor enclosure that has fw800, esata and usb 2.0 ports and it functions well. Booted into macos9 and 10.4.11 but must test further - tried to copy a file from a usb stick but crashed in 10.4.11.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 08, 2014, 04:44:41 PM
Hello again, I have done further experiments and I discovered a really funny thing: this firmware downgrade unlocked the USB 2.0 speed of the integrated MDD ports... I noticed that because after installing TechTool 6 under OSX 10.5 the USB speed indicator reaches the 480 Mbit/s and I had no USB2 card installed yet...
Quickly connecting the same Seagate Freeagent of previous test to its USB2 side (it is a double interface model) reveal I were right: the measured speed with Xbench was about 24 Mb/s so the port were effectively running in USB 2.0 mode.
The bad news is that under OS9 seems to be a bad idea to connect USB storage devices to the integrated ports because the system tends to freeze and, when it happen to function, the maximum speed is in the USB 1.1 range, as confirmed by Quickbench test I have performed where the peak trasfer were no higher than 1 Mb/s.
So under OS9 don't connect storage USB devices (like HDD and PenDrives) to integrated ports but ONLY input devices like mouse and keyboard. Of course when you install a PCI card with dedicated USB 2.0 ports you can connect to it whatever you want, they are on a separate bus and works well under OS9 too (at USB 1.1 speed, since OS9 drivers does not support higher speed).
On OSX side the USB 2.0 mode seems much more stable but I have to made further experiments to determine if it is also enough safe.
In the meantime I found this article that explain the embedded USB 2.0 chips in some MDD models:

http://www.cnet.com/news/usb-2-0-in-some-power-mac-g4-mdds-update-apple-replies/ (http://www.cnet.com/news/usb-2-0-in-some-power-mac-g4-mdds-update-apple-replies/)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 08, 2014, 09:44:24 PM
You guys rock :)  I don't think any of this detailed info. is anywhere else... thanks again
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 09, 2014, 05:14:50 PM
After spending a considerable amount of time in testing I cant tell that "unlocked" USB2 mode on integrated MDD port is safe and does not freeze the machine under heavy load under OSX. For OS9 remains true what I wrote in the last post: better to not use these ports for storage devices.
First let me describe the FW800 machine I am using for testing:

PowerMac MDD "FW800" Dual G4 @ 1.25 GHz flashed with MDD FW400 firmware (version 4.4.8f2)
2 Gb of CL3 PC2700 RAM (30330 timings on System Profiler)
Radeon 9000 Pro graphic board VRAM 64 Mb (firmware version 113-99702-131 Apple OEM)
ATTO PSC Scsi Board with firmware 1.6.6f0 (latest)
D-Link USB2 PCI board with 4+1 ports (Nec chipset)
Hard Drive Seagate 120 Gb model ST3120024A (Apple OEM)
SuperDrive Pioneer DVR-105 (Apple OEM)

The hard drive is splitted in 3 partitions named as follow:

Boot_C9 (4Gb) with OS 9.2.2 from OS9General.dmg (Italian version) + Quicktime 6.0.3 + Classic extensions
Boot_X4 (12Gb) with OSX 10.4.11 to latest Apple updates
Boot_X5 (95 Gb) with OSX 10.5.8 to latest Apple updates + Quicktime 7.7

Additionally I have plugged to the PSC board a Wide SCSI LaCie disk at 10.000 RPM used as source for file testing, both under OSX 10.4 and 10.5 have been installed the latest ATTO drivers for this board. No drivers needed under OS9.

Since I want to test the USB2 realiability on MDD ports I have moved keyboard and mouse to the USB port of the D-Link card leaving the internal ports free for connecting the followinge devices:

TDK 8 GB USB2 pen drive
Seagate portable HD FreeAgent GO plugged to USB port and powered by an external PSU so the connection to the Mac was in the realm of data I/O only, no current drained from the weak computer's PSU.

I have done almost the same test under OS9, 10.4 and 10.5 and performed quite well, here are my results:

OS 9.2.2
Here the USB environment is 1.1 only, maximum transfer rate of 1.2 MB/sec so the main focus were on stability on intense I/O activity.
From the SCSI disk I copied a 650 Mb single file (an MKV movie) both to pen drive and to the Seagate Hard Drive at the same moment, obtained dragging the source file from the SCSI drive to pen drive and quickly after from SCSI drive to USB drive. Two progress bar windows opens and I observed the copy operation was going on, slowly but without troubles, same speed for both streams.
In the meantime I have launched the complete demostration of Graphic Calculator app and while it was running I have done an access to my remote Qnap server to download some files I needed to install later. I also have opened a couple of time the System Profiler and then doing some surfing with Classilla browser.
Well, the experience was something like to live in a slow motion movie but the copy on both devices went fine and system does not crash until... I opened System Profiler once time more and this freezed the desktop, all opened windows and ongoing processes went locked but mouse pointer was still live.
I had to manually shut down the system and then reboot to OS9 again but looking in the destination devices I discovered the files were completed so the copy was succesful, only the desktop was freezed. For completeness I have made a further experiment: unplug the Seagate drive from USB and reconnect it to Firewire 800 port then repeat the procedure above to see if the speed were different and, yes it changed but not very good: the copy stream on the Firewire dropped to 1/3 of the speed of USB stream (no other programs was running for this test) so the copy on USB side was already finished while on the Firewire side it was still at half way. It is like the USB operation steal resources to the Firewire operation but when I tried to connect to the Firewire 400 port I discovered a terrible reality:

In OS9 the stock Firewire 400 ports does not work anymore! Only the FW800 does! :-(

A quick test under OSX prove it happens on OS9 only, the two FW400 ports works well both under 10.4 and 10.5 so this could be only a driver issue, maybe in OS9 the drivers are rigidly mapped to hardware resources and if the phisical address is changed (like flashing a machine with a different machine firmware) they do not found their way anymore. So this is the first serious problem of this firmware downgrade but if you add a combo PCI card USB/Firewire this issue can be less problematic as it could seem in first place.

OSX 10.4.11 / 10.5.8

Here the MDD's USB rear ports gain back their new speed because of direct drive support, again two streams of a single large file source are copied at the same time on two different destination, in the meantime I opened Grapher (the equivalent in OSX to Graphic Calculator in OS9) and launched all the available 3D functions demonstrations: about eight different windows each with a realtime animation inside), doing a bit of net surfing, connected again to my Qnap TS-412 and all went absolutely smooth. I also have done some copy test between the two USB devices and no problems at all.

At this point I am very satisfied about the downgrade but I really would like to know if the Airport slot and Bluetooth module are working again after this modifications.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on May 09, 2014, 06:56:49 PM
Thank You for the detailed explanation.


In OS9 the stock Firewire 400 ports does not work anymore! Only the FW800 does! :-(

A quick test under OSX prove it happens on OS9 only, the two FW400 ports works well both under 10.4 and 10.5 so this could be only a driver issue, maybe in OS9 the drivers are rigidly mapped to hardware resources and if the phisical address is changed (like flashing a machine with a different machine firmware) they do not found their way anymore. So this is the first serious problem of this firmware downgrade but if you add a combo PCI card USB/Firewire this issue can be less problematic as it could seem in first place.

May be the only explanation to this is that the FW400 are subsystems of the FW800 that the firmware don't know about it. In the MDD FW400 both ports are at the same "direct level", so the this firmware don't know nothing about FW on subsystems, once flashed on a MDD FW800 whith FW ports organized in very different way.

So the FW800 at first level works at FW400 speed, but the FW400 ports are ignored for being subsystems of the main FW800.

We have to wait to DieHard opinion, he knows about this...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on May 09, 2014, 07:22:09 PM
After spending a considerable amount of time in testing I cant tell that "unlocked" USB2 mode on integrated MDD port is safe and does not freeze the machine under heavy load under OSX. For OS9 remains true what I wrote in the last post: better to not use these ports for storage devices.
OS 9.2.2
In OS9 the stock Firewire 400 ports does not work anymore! Only the FW800 does! :-(

A quick test under OSX prove it happens on OS9 only, the two FW400 ports works well both under 10.4 and 10.5 so this could be only a driver issue, maybe in OS9 the drivers are rigidly mapped to hardware resources and if the phisical address is changed (like flashing a machine with a different machine firmware) they do not found their way anymore. So this is the first serious problem of this firmware downgrade but if you add a combo PCI card USB/Firewire this issue can be less problematic as it could seem in first place.

At this point I am very satisfied about the downgrade but I really would like to know if the Airport slot and Bluetooth module are working again after this modifications.


Great! Good news! Maybe to loose the FW-400 ports on OS9 is not a loose when you can run MacOS9 on a FW-800 !!!!!.


I think a lot of FW-800 users will love to find this unbelieble info about  booting OS9!


MORE MACOS9 MACHINES !!!!!!!

I am with Jakl
Quote
Now we're ready for a G5 Macos9 on Steroids...

 ;D :o ;D :o ;D






 
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 09, 2014, 07:31:28 PM
I had originally suspected there would be an issue with One or more of the FW ports... put I had originally expected the 800 ports not working at all; perhaps the the physical hardware address on the MB of the FW800 ports on a FW800 G4 might be the same as the hardware address of the FW400 ports on a FW400 G4... that is why the firmware thinks the 800 ports are the 400 ports in OS9...I also suspect that that is why the FW800 ports are still bootable with a FW External drive (yet the 400s are dead). 

However... it is amazing that under OSX all ports work... I would have suspected an issue in OS X also, but the drivers must be written to communicate thru a hardware abstract layer that communicates differently with the firmware... the firmware does not even know the unit has FW800 ports, yet they work.... so there is obviously more here that we do not know about in the coding... maybe there is some mutual code in the firmware (for both models) that got left in there that is benefiting us...who knows...

At any rate, if these are the only issues, Blitter's work around is still 100% success :)

SnakeCoils your approach is perfect... test and log results... I am sure we have out-foxed even the designers this time.  I don't think the G4 development team would even have anticipated Blitter's approach... so all we have is Trial and Error... Definitely, this opens the door for more G4s that can run Mac OS 9... and calls for a "Holy Grail" re-write of the best Stock G4 that runs OS 9.  Prior to this discovery, the best we could hope for was "stealing" dual 1.42 and putting them in FW400 MDDs... Now we can get the whole units and re-burn firmware.   I don't think we will ever get this lucky in the G5 arena... and the hardware on the G5 is so fickle that it is better we stop here anyway.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 09, 2014, 08:17:02 PM
So from what you said Diehard then at the open firmware level everything is opened up at startup - then it's at the startup of the Mac Operating System that depends whether the ports are used or not?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 10, 2014, 02:22:11 AM
Thank you very much for your feedback :-) I think it is really really important to do very quickly all the possible experiments on this hybrid Mac born FW800 flashed with MDD2003 firmware because sooner the word will be widely spread and since the process is not reversible (as far as we know) I want the people that decide for this modification will know for sure what they are going to have, just to not discover bitter surprises too much late... we can only warn about the risks, but once the risk is assumed the responsabilty is entirely on the user.
Also, the research for a "soft boot" of OS9 must not to be abandoned because there are many G4 machines that are not "blessed" by an alternative firmware (later eMacs, iMacs, Powerbooks, MacMinis) so for those computer the only chance is a modified resource to cheat the system in booting the classic OS.
I suspect that the clever programmers at MorphOS Project could have some ideas about the steps to do, if someone nowadays is still digging in the G4 and G5 secrets they are for sure the right people to ask ;-)
Alternatively one could trying to do a really crazy thing: if no other checks are performed by the flasher then could be possible, at theoretical level, to flash everything has a G4 heart with the MDD 4.4.8 firmware and seeing what happens... but this has nothing of scientific, it is more or less a blind try so be prepared to brick your Mac forever.
The right way would be to make a dump of original machine firmware, make the MINIMAL necessary modification to allow the OS9 boot (without touching anything else) and then flash it back to the Mac, it could be a good idea for a Kickstarter project :-)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 10, 2014, 03:58:01 AM
From this page then some of the older powerbooks and ibooks maybe able to be flashed back to macos9 using
downloadable Firmware.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1395
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on May 10, 2014, 10:39:24 AM
For Jakl: I think that a decisive step in the direction of OS9 bootability of all G4 machines is to have a ROM dumper utility first, something that permit to read the firmware of our machines and make a copy on a file we can inspect at byte level. The idea is to do a thing similar to what has already done many years ago to unlock the CD drives to be usable from Mac even if they had not Apple firmware, in that case it was only a matter to edit some datas with ResEdit in the Apple CD/DVD extension of OS9 and every optical drive magically went welcomed by Mac without installing third party drivers.

For DieHard: I have made a screenshot of System Profiler in OS9 that show how the Firewire 800 resource is seen by the system. Here it is.

As you can see the system don't even assign the "Hard Disk" label ("Disco Rigido", in Italian) to the resource but luckily it is correctly recognized as storage and as it is used. Maybe a ResEdit trick could fix the name.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 10, 2014, 10:54:39 AM
Quote
So from what you said Diehard then at the open firmware level everything is opened up at startup - then it's at the startup of the Mac Operating System that depends whether the ports are used or not?

No, I am NOT saying that... Let's NOT confuse Open firmware with SMC Firmware Updates

Quote
Apple's Open Firmware is part of their ROM-in-RAM design approach originally used in the first iMac systems. The approach uses a small ROM that contains sufficient code to initialize the hardware and load an operating system. The rest of the system code, that on previous Mac systems (old world) resided on a physical ROM (chip) is now loaded from disk or from network into RAM. Open Firmware is part of this "New World" boot system.

So as my understanding is... open firmware is at a higher level than the actual SMC firmware... and thus you can use Open firmware commands to re-burn read only hardware updates into SMC firmware and NOT effect the Open Firmware itself.

Any experts that can better explain the relationship between the SMC / Firmware and OS ROM... please "chime" in...

Startup Sequence... As explained by apple... in the simplest way...
1. Turn on the computer.
2. Hardware self-test.
3. Mac OS starts up.
4. Search for a startup disk.
5. System file is found and opens.
6. System extensions load.
7. Finder opens.
8. Startup Items open.

#2 & #3 are obviously more involved, and where most of our discussion comes from.  We have all heard of "Resetting the SMC" on a G4.
Quote
The SMC (System Management Controller) controls a number of the Mac's core functions. The SMC is a chunk of hardware incorporated into the Mac's motherboard. Its purpose is to free the Mac's processor from having to actively take care of rudimentary hardware functions.
So basically this "Chunk of Hardware" is obviously a chip or series of chips that are physically located on the MB, and some values that these chips hold can be cleared (By hitting the SMC" reset button and giving a small voltage zap) and thus new "correct" values will be re-read and re-written into the SMC upon power on and the SMC will see everything peachy and BAM... a familiar C Chord Chime will be heard.

Quote
Depending on your Mac model, the SMC performs the following functions:     
Responds to the press of the power button, including deciding whether the press is for a power off, sleep
Detects and responds to the opening or closing of the lid of a portable Mac.
Manages a portable's battery performance, including charging, calibration, and displaying remaining battery time.
Thermal management of your Mac's interior. This is primarily accomplished by sensing temperature at various places inside your Mac, and then adjusting fan speed to create or reduce airflow.
And... a whole bunch of other stuff :)

Quote
Step 2: Hardware Self-Test
After the computer is turned on, different "managers" in the computer's read-only memory begin to function. The first is the Start Manager. It makes sure that certain hardware components on the computer's logic board are working, including the microprocessor, read-only memory, drives, ports, expansion slots, and memory (RAM).
The startup sound you hear when you turn on the computer indicates that the Start Manager has successfully completed its tests. You will also see the raster (gray desktop) on the screen, along with the pointer.
If one of the Start Manager tests fails, you may hear a series of tones (sometimes called "error tones" or "death chimes") see a "sad Macintosh" icon on the screen The kind of tones you hear will vary depending on the Macintosh model, and on the kind of component(s) that failed the test.

So when we talk about updating firmware... I believe we are talking about updating SMC firmware or more exactly updating the read only executable code that communicates directly with the SMC chips (or series of chips).  In our experiment the system management controller hardware on the MDD FW400 and MDD FW800 are obviously close enough that the Startup manager sees all values from the SMC as cool and chimes (if not, Blitter would have gotten error beeps and no Chime after the force burn)... and thus a "dead" MDD.

Since the SMC communicates directly with the hardware on the MB at a very basic level... I am guessing it is seeing the FW800 ports as FW400 Ports upon boot sequence (and does NOT look for 800 ports, since a FW400 MDD does not have any)... after boot sequence in OS X... I can only guess that OS X drivers get some values from the SMC (temperature and other stuff) but access the FW ports directly and ignore where the SMC says they are... where as OS 9 may rely more on what the SMC says and not look for something the SMC does not see.

- Diehard

PS: I could be 100% wrong with this post...hehehe
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on May 10, 2014, 11:10:12 AM
Quote
In OS9 the stock Firewire 400 ports does not work anymore! Only the FW800 does! :-(

To further support the theory....

Quote
fw6093, 10483

Is the exact value I get under OS 9.2.2 with FW400; and thus it does appear that OS 9 is assuming (and mapping) the FW800 port to the FW400 Port.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on May 10, 2014, 12:49:34 PM
I insist on my theory:

On a MDD FW400 the branch of Firewire is:

U2 -------->FW400(1)

U2 -------->FW400(2)

On a MDD FW800 the branch of Firewire is:

U2 -------->FW800(1)

U2 -------->FW800(2)-------->FW400(2)
                              -------->FW400(3)

As we are using Mac Os 9 on this unsupported mac,  Mac Os 9 uses his drivers to FW800(1) and fortunately  it works, but a FW400 speed.
Mac os 9 do the same to FW800(2) but unfortunately it drivers can't understand the branch of FW400(2) and FW400(3) and that's why it can't work.

Mac Os X Fw800 drivers understand this very well so no problems.


PS: I could be 150% wrong with this post... 50% more wrong than DieHard LOL
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 11, 2014, 01:18:23 AM
Booted into MacOS9 - have FW800 HD plugged in and turned on -
my reading on System Profiler is:

Firewire 2.8.7 - fw609e, 10483

Firewire 800 HD reading correctly. 2 partitions - 1 Leopard and 1 Tiger.

Have a USB stick on MDD Motherboard USB port - Detected correctly naming it USB 5
because I have a 3 port USB card installed as well.
However USB 4 is being called Hub in my Studio Display. and runs the mouse and keyboard.
I have a EyeTV USB stick in the 3 Port USB card which is detected alright. Namely USB 0 Port.
(This card works well in 10.4.11)
I have 3 spare ports.

Now here are some things I've never seen before;

The USB stick I mentioned on the MDD Motherboard USB port - named USB 5 is showing up
also on my Internal ATA 3(ATA100) bus with my main Partitioned Hard Drive(OSX and OS9).

My Hard Drive Icon for MacOS9 is a folder with an image of a Mac(Never seen it before).

Attached an image for you to see. It's a bit of a pizza image i.e. 3 photo images joined together.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 11, 2014, 03:55:57 PM
As I retrace my steps concerning my previous post I maybe able to explain the
icon for the HD - if it is right?

Before I did the Open Firmware downgrade I did a Norton Utilities(NU) Disk Doctor(DD)
check and also NU Speed Disk(SD) to get everything nice before I took the image of the HD.
NU had many minor errors about bundle bits for icons which I think I corrected - maybe
it put that icon itself - don't know, but I have never seen that icon before even though I have
used NU DD many times before correcting similar minor errors.

In booting into Macos9 on that HD that icon is what represents my HD.

Can't explain the misinterpretation of the USB and ATA100 buses by the System Profiler though.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on May 20, 2014, 08:51:18 AM
Amazingly glad you got sorted Jakl;)   -afro- way cool dude
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on May 24, 2014, 12:54:57 AM
Thanks Chris
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: IIO on May 27, 2014, 05:40:26 PM

netpresenz is a killer app.

if you want something ultra easy, try the hotline ftp server, which has literally no other preferences to set than the folder which should be shared. :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Mat on May 30, 2014, 08:11:53 PM
Wow, I thought first it is the next one of the houndreds of threads outside that ends with the conclusion that it is not possible at all. I am really stunned that you got Mac OS 9 running at unsupported FW 800 G4s. Great work!

Before trying G5s (what I expect to be much harder, but who knows), is there some brave person outside who might try it with one of the later G4 Powerbooks? This would be a very huge improvement for us 9 users as the later 2005/2006 models have twice of the performance of the "officially Mac OS 9 bootable" Powerbooks. A 1670MHz G4 Book with 167MHz systembus a 128MB graphiccard and 1,5 GB of 4200 DDR SDRAM sounds like a hell of a 9-machine! ;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on May 31, 2014, 02:52:44 AM
... about FW800 Mac Os 9 booting:
-No Fw800, No USB 2... but I had read long time ago that this is posible.
:) :)


... about later G4 Powerbooks Mac Os 9 booting:
There was a half-successful try. I can try to find the info but this must be posted in a new topic if interested...

... about first G5s Mac Os 9 booting:
In short: imposible.
A very different northbrige, and lot of different moderboard components...
There was some unsuccessful works. I can try to find the info but this must be posted in a new topic also if interested...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on May 31, 2014, 03:58:48 AM
hmmm just checked the powerbooks that came after the 1ghz

models incl: 1.25ghz, 1.33ghz, 1.5ghz, 1.67ghz

would be amazing to have a portable 1.67ghz g4 running os 9!!!!
who on the board has any of these powerbooks>???
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: cyberish on June 01, 2014, 11:44:48 AM
Hi Chris

I've got one of those 1,67 ghz Powerbooks and I would love to have a native Mac OS 9 on it  ;D

Are then the only two things to consider to install from another Mac OS 9 machine the apple hd driver and then to implant that MacOS ROM  9.8.1 on it?

I want to try soonish

raphael
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on June 01, 2014, 06:35:51 PM
cyberish i suggest u re-read the thread and the relevant info will become clear for you;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: cyberish on June 02, 2014, 12:20:48 AM
... i just did  :o thx
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Cloaked Alien on June 13, 2014, 07:26:30 AM
Jumping in here! I've got an old iMac G4 (the iLamp). Not 100% sure right now but I think it's the 1GHz 17" model which can't run OS9. The machine is pretty much without purpose right now since I can't find any good use for it. I'd be one happy camper if I got OS 9 running on it!

I've skimmed through the thread and I understand it that it might be possible to downgrade the firmware even on this model?

I'm savvy enough to install Lubuntu / OS X dual boot on it. I also own a G4 Cube that runs OS 9. For obvious reasons I'd prefer to have the Globe running OS9.

While I expect to get told to read the entire thread again I'm hoping I could get some quick advice on the futility of my goal. This machine deserves some proper love for sure!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on June 13, 2014, 08:17:03 AM
As there is some people interested in to Mac os 9 boot on other unsupported Macs I'll open new threads to discuss each specific model issues, and to keep this important thread in to his original sense "MDD Firewire 800" and to solve further questions on this topic.

So for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iMac G4 please post on :
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1173.0

and for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iBook G4 please post on:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1174.0

and for Mac Os 9 boot on other unsupported models, please open new threads...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on June 13, 2014, 07:49:38 PM
While I expect to get told to read the entire thread again I'm hoping I could get some quick advice on the futility of my goal. This machine deserves some proper love for sure!

its not futile at all
the first challenge is locating a firmware file for the G4 imac that DOES support os9..
if one is not posted online somehow u must find an actual g4 imac physically and use the openfirmware FORTH language to dump its rom file to a file
this is possible but would require some education on the openfirmware language (mac forth)
or perhaps there is one posted in the same way that the other fw400 MDD rom update was found..
perhaps theres a repository of firmware updates somewhere?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Cloaked Alien on June 14, 2014, 03:52:39 AM
So for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iMac G4 please post on :
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1173.0

Thank you! I'll continue my post there and I hope others will join in =)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: SnakeCoils on June 17, 2014, 01:25:13 PM
I re-join this thread to ask to FW800 users still with original firmware (non OS9 bootable) if after throwing to a dedicated (OS9 drivers blessed) partition the OS9General.dmg from MDD2003 and replacing the Mac OS ROM with the v9.5.1 modded in the other iMac thread their machine becomes OS9 bootable and fully functional: if verified there will be no more need to flash the FW800 with the MDD2003 firmware. Could someone kindly do this experiment? Many thanks in advance :-)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on June 17, 2014, 02:03:36 PM
Maybe changing MacRISC # with a few Open Firmware commands is all we needed...
The process is showed here:
http://luttztfz.wordpress.com/tag/open-firmware-hack/
... but in the opposite direction...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Jakl on June 18, 2014, 08:02:33 PM
Just an update on my MDD dual 1.42 with a rolled back firmware version for anyone who is interested.

The firewire800 ports and the firewire 400 are working without any problems now with a DVD-RAM on the firewire400 port and a HD on the firewire800 port.

Was having trouble previously with the firewire 400 ports so don't know what happened?

The system feels more stable than before don't know why but everything just works well.

Anyway take it easy peoples...:-)

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on June 18, 2014, 08:34:34 PM
Code: [Select]
” PowerBook2,2″ encode-string ” MacRISC” encode-string encode+ ” MacRISC2″ encode-string encode+ ” Power Macintosh” encode-string encode+ ” compatible” property
Quote
It is based on FORTH, a programming language, where the actual command what to do with a value follows that value. (Like calculating with a HP-28.) So ” PowerBook2,2″ is the string, and encode-string is what to do with it.

^^ this is the real reason why not many people are able to do much with open firmware..
not understanding the structure of the commands.. this is very much backward to every other style of programming/scripting we are familiar with these days in both dos/win + unix/mac

we are used to [command] [values] [switches]
and this language's structure, as illusrtated in the above quote...
is set up like this: [values] [command]
totally backward
this sheds alot of light on the situation for me!
 ;D

i guess the + operator simply means "append this value to the last" such as the "." operator is used in many ecmascript/javascript .. concatenating many strings to a longer string value.

it is a strange language with a unique structure.

if anyone was truly interested in mastering its structure this would be a good book to start with
http://www.amazon.com/MacFORTH-Programming-hands-introduction-programming/dp/B00071QF1K

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81b7-ankUgL.jpg)

the megawolf site says something about them obtaining "macforth" >
Quote
MegaWolf is very pleased to announce that it has acquired the MacForth programming environment!! For more details, go to www.macforth.com
http://www.megawolf.com/
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on June 18, 2014, 09:30:56 PM
Seeing how much this thread has evolved… I will now make a prediction…

By 2015 it will we 18 pages long and the last page will have a post about success with a Dual 2.7 CPU G5 running Mac OS 9.2.2 !!

But I regret to say it will only have 16 colors available and have no working ports (Firewire or USB), No Audio and No ethernet…

but who cares about all that crap… it will be the fastest OS 9 Machine ever :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on June 19, 2014, 01:40:53 AM
i used to believe in 'wierd' errors before i knew more about programming.back in my youngre days
but the more i looked the more i realized theres always something u dont understand thats actually going on
and that 99.9% of the time  theres an actual reason as to why something happened.. or doesnt work etc.

nowadays i usually approach things with that belief! and u just gotta keep asking the right questions
that lead u to that better more indepth understanding or answer!

re: this thread;
Just goes to show.. more heads are better then 1;)


http://www.macforth.com/

this page is pretty basic but at least it shows that the owner of megawolf.com is still alive its dated 2014!
(even tho they dont answer their customer support emails)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: IIO on July 27, 2014, 02:00:24 PM

dont know if it has ben said aready, but i also believe to know that it is two things you need:

 - the ROM from the classic enviroment .dmg which came with the fw800 computer

 - mac os9 harddisk drivers, which you can only get on your fw800´s HDs by connecting them to a "real" os9 machine.

i haver never tried it myself though, mainly because i dont see the need to replace a apple dual 1.25 with a apple dual 1.4 when there are sonnet dual 1.6´s for "real" os9 computers (also for ZIP when i am not wrong, and the older sonnet dual 1.8 were even ZIP only)

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: IIO on July 27, 2014, 02:14:53 PM
By 2015 it will we 18 pages long and the last page will have a post about success with a Dual 2.7 CPU G5 running Mac OS 9.2.2 !!

But I regret to say it will only have 16 colors available and have no working ports (Firewire or USB), No Audio and No ethernet…

lol, but will launch simpletext faster than ever, even when infected with sevendust. :)

-110
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on August 13, 2014, 12:00:47 PM
back to the topic..
did anyone ever try this with a powerbook g4 (2005)?

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_1.67_17_hr.html
would be awesome to have a 1.6ghz powerbook os9 booting?
surely the same thing can be done IF we can find a compatible firmware downgrade?

both 2004 + 2005 powerbooks have radeon 9700 or geforce fx5200 video tho..
and the 2003 powerbooks had radeon 9600 but some had gf4mx


http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_capability/macs-that-support-macos-9-classic.html
lists the most powerful os9 bootable powerbook at 800mhz (radeon 7500)
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_800_dvi.html

Quote
Introduction Date:    April 29, 2002    Discontinued Date:    November 6, 2002

but http://www.everymac.com/mac-answers/mac-os-9-classic-support-faq/last-macs-to-boot-startup-macos-9.html
lists the fastest as the g4 1ghz ti (radeon 9000)
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_1.0.html
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on August 13, 2014, 04:12:20 PM
back to the topic..


http://www.everymac.com/mac-answers/mac-os-9-classic-support-faq/last-macs-to-boot-startup-macos-9.html
lists the fastest as the g4 1ghz ti (radeon 9000)
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_1.0.html

I agree, the next target should be Alu PowerBooks VS TI PowerBooks but on OTHER post.
iBooksG4 can not boot OS9 as ALU PB

As there is some people interested in to Mac os 9 boot on other unsupported Macs I'll open new threads to discuss each specific model issues, and to keep this important thread in to his original sense "MDD Firewire 800" and to solve further questions on this topic.

So for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iMac G4 please post on :
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1173.0

and for Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iBook G4 please post on:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1174.0

and for Mac Os 9 boot on other unsupported models, please open new threads...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 25, 2014, 08:48:39 PM
i believe it would be possible to use openfirmware programming in forth language to extract and save out copy of existing firmware
from any mac g4 . ie: emac, powerbook, ibook, imac
meaning that any non-mac os 9 booting mac that has another similar model in its range/series that can boot os 9
can be enabled to boot os 9 by overwriting its firmware with this older model, or if we really had someone with some real hacking expertise..these firmwares could be hacked without even copying the old, and simply 'flicking the switch' back on that apple purposely turned off - thats right we know now for certain there was no real hardware limitation that forced them to be incompatible this was a purposefull thing they did not want anyone continuing to use the classic mac os.. they buried it;) so since its discarded we can feel no guilt in digging it up;)

we got lucky in that there was a downloadable firmware already existing as an easy download in this scenario
but i believe the same techniques can be extended to make powerbook boot mac os9
and also the 2005 emac with 1.42 cpu

theresa huge list of macs that support 'classic mode only'
and they are all more powerful then any other mac os 9 computer

we have solved only 3 of these;) who is thirsty for more?
 8)
Quote
all g4s that support classic mode but not booting
eMac G4/1.25 (USB 2.0)
Intro. Date:    April 13, 2004         Disc. Date:    May 3, 2005
Order No:    M9425LL/A*         Model No:    A1002
Subfamily:    eMac USB 2.0         Model ID:    PowerMac6,4
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    40, 80 GB         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"*
eMac G4/1.42 (2005)
Intro. Date:    May 3, 2005         Disc. Date:    October 12, 2005*
Order No:    M9834LL/A*         Model No:    A1002
Subfamily:    eMac 2005         Model ID:    PowerMac6,4
Std. RAM:    256 MB, 512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80, 160 GB         Std. Optical:    12X "Combo Drive"*


iBook G4/800 12-Inch (Original - Op)
Intro. Date:    October 22, 2003         Disc. Date:    April 19, 2004
Order No:    M9164LL/A         Model No:    A1054
Subfamily:    iBook G4         Model ID:    PowerBook6,3
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    30.0 GB         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/933 14-Inch (Original - Op)
Intro. Date:    October 22, 2003         Disc. Date:    April 19, 2004
Order No:    M9388LL/A         Model No:    A1055
Subfamily:    iBook G4 14-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,3
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    40.0 GB         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/1.0 14-Inch (Original - Op)
Intro. Date:    October 22, 2003         Disc. Date:    April 19, 2004
Order No:    M9165LL/A         Model No:    A1055
Subfamily:    iBook G4 14-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,3
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    60.0 GB         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/1.0 12-Inch (Early 2004 - Op)
Intro. Date:    April 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    October 19, 2004
Order No:    M9426LL/A         Model No:    A1054
Subfamily:    Early 2004         Model ID:    PowerBook6,5
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    30 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/1.0 14-Inch (Early 2004 - Op)
Intro. Date:    April 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    October 19, 2004
Order No:    M9418LL/A         Model No:    A1055
Subfamily:    Early 2004 14-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,5
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    40 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/1.2 14-Inch (Early 2004 - Op)
Intro. Date:    April 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    October 19, 2004
Order No:    M9419LL/A         Model No:    A1055
Subfamily:    Early 2004 14-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,5
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/1.2 12-Inch (Late 2004 - Op)
Intro. Date:    October 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    July 26, 2005
Order No:    M9623LL/A         Model No:    A1054
Subfamily:    Late 2004 12-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,5
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    30 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/1.33 14-Inch (Late 2004 - Op)
Intro. Date:    October 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    July 26, 2005
Order No:    M9627LL/A*         Model No:    A1055
Subfamily:    Late 2004 14-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,5
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"*
iBook G4/1.33 12-Inch (Mid-2005 - Op)
Intro. Date:    July 26, 2005         Disc. Date:    May 16, 2006
Order No:    M9846LL/A         Model No:    A1133
Subfamily:    Mid-2005 12-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,7
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    40 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
iBook G4/1.42 14-Inch (Mid-2005 - Op)
Intro. Date:    July 26, 2005         Disc. Date:    May 16, 2006
Order No:    M9848LL/A         Model No:    A1134
Subfamily:    Mid-2005 14-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,7
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    4X "SuperDrive"


iMac G4/800 - X Only (Flat Panel)
Intro. Date:    February 4, 2003         Disc. Date:    September 8, 2003
Order No:    M9105LL/A         Model No:    M6498
Subfamily:    iMac Spring 2003         Model ID:    PowerMac4,2
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    32X "Combo Drive"
iMac G4/1.0 17-Inch (Flat Panel)
Intro. Date:    February 4, 2003         Disc. Date:    September 8, 2003
Order No:    M8935LL/A         Model No:    M6498
Subfamily:    iMac 17" 1 GHz         Model ID:    PowerMac6,1
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    4X "SuperDrive"
iMac G4/1.0 15-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0)
Intro. Date:    September 8, 2003         Disc. Date:    July 1, 2004
Order No:    M9285LL/A         Model No:    N/A
Subfamily:    iMac USB 2.0         Model ID:    PowerMac6,1
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    32X "Combo Drive"
iMac G4/1.25 17-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0)
Intro. Date:    September 8, 2003         Disc. Date:    July 1, 2004
Order No:    M9168LL/A         Model No:    N/A
Subfamily:    iMac USB 2.0         Model ID:    PowerMac6,1
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    4X "SuperDrive"
iMac G4/1.25 20-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0)
Intro. Date:    November 18, 2003         Disc. Date:    July 1, 2004
Order No:    M9290LL/A         Model No:    N/A
Subfamily:    iMac USB 2.0         Model ID:    PowerMac6,3
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    4X "SuperDrive"


Mac mini G4/1.42
Intro. Date:    January 11, 2005*         Disc. Date:    September 27, 2005
Order No:    M9687LL/A*         Model No:    A1103
Subfamily:    Mac mini         Model ID:    PowerMac10,1
Std. RAM:    256 MB, 512 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    80.0 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
Mac mini G4/1.33
Intro. Date:    September 27, 2005         Disc. Date:    February 28, 2006
Order No:    M9686LL/B*         Model No:    A1103
Subfamily:    Late 2005         Model ID:    PowerMac10,2
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    40.0 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
Mac mini G4/1.5
Intro. Date:    September 27, 2005         Disc. Date:    February 28, 2006
Order No:    M9687LL/B*         Model No:    A1103
Subfamily:    Late 2005         Model ID:    PowerMac10,2
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80.0 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"


PowerBook G4 867 12" (Al)
Intro. Date:    January 7, 2003         Disc. Date:    September 16, 2003
Order No:    M8760LL/A         Model No:    A1010
Subfamily:    12-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook6,1
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    40 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
PowerBook G4 1.0 17" (Al)
Intro. Date:    January 7, 2003         Disc. Date:    September 16, 2003
Order No:    M8793LL/A         Model No:    A1013
Subfamily:    17-Inch         Model ID:    PowerBook5,1
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    2X "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.0 12" (DVI - Al)
Intro. Date:    September 16, 2003         Disc. Date:    April 19, 2004
Order No:    M9007LL/A*         Model No:    A1010
Subfamily:    12-Inch DVI         Model ID:    PowerBook6,2
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    32 MB
Std. HD:    40 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"*
PowerBook G4 1.0 15" (FW800 - Al)
Intro. Date:    September 16, 2003         Disc. Date:    April 19, 2004
Order No:    M8980LL/A         Model No:    A1046
Subfamily:    15-Inch FW800         Model ID:    PowerBook5,2
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
PowerBook G4 1.25 15" (FW800 - Al)
Intro. Date:    September 16, 2003         Disc. Date:    April 19, 2004
Order No:    M8981LL/A         Model No:    A1046
Subfamily:    15-Inch FW800         Model ID:    PowerBook5,2
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    2X "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.33 17" (Al)
Intro. Date:    September 16, 2003         Disc. Date:    April 19, 2004
Order No:    M9110LL/A         Model No:    A1052
Subfamily:    17-Inch 1.33 GHz         Model ID:    PowerBook5,3
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    2X "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.33 12" (Al)
Intro. Date:    April 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    January 31, 2005
Order No:    M9183LL/A*         Model No:    A1010
Subfamily:    12-Inch 1.33 GHz         Model ID:    PowerBook6,4
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"*
PowerBook G4 1.33 15" (Al)
Intro. Date:    April 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    January 31, 2005
Order No:    M9421LL/A         Model No:    A1095
Subfamily:    15-Inch 1.5/1.33         Model ID:    PowerBook5,4
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
PowerBook G4 1.5 15" (Al)
Intro. Date:    April 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    January 31, 2005
Order No:    M9422LL/A         Model No:    A1095
Subfamily:    15-Inch 1.5/1.33         Model ID:    PowerBook5,4
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    4X "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.5 17" (Al)
Intro. Date:    April 19, 2004         Disc. Date:    January 31, 2005
Order No:    M9462LL/A         Model No:    A1085
Subfamily:    17-Inch 1.5 GHz         Model ID:    PowerBook5,5
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (4200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    4X "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.5 12" (Al)
Intro. Date:    January 31, 2005         Disc. Date:    May 16, 2006*
Order No:    M9690LL/A*         Model No:    A1104
Subfamily:    12-Inch 1.5 GHz         Model ID:    PowerBook6,8
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    60, 80 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"*
PowerBook G4 1.5 15" (SMS/BT2 - Al)
Intro. Date:    January 31, 2005         Disc. Date:    October 19, 2005
Order No:    M9676LL/A         Model No:    A1106
Subfamily:    15-Inch 1.67/1.5         Model ID:    PowerBook5,6
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "Combo Drive"
PowerBook G4 1.67 15" (Al)
Intro. Date:    January 31, 2005         Disc. Date:    October 19, 2005
Order No:    M9677LL/A         Model No:    A1106
Subfamily:    15-Inch 1.67/1.5         Model ID:    PowerBook5,6
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.67 17" (Al)
Intro. Date:    January 31, 2005         Disc. Date:    October 19, 2005
Order No:    M9689LL/A         Model No:    A1107
Subfamily:    17-Inch 1.67 GHz         Model ID:    PowerBook5,7
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    128 MB
Std. HD:    100 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    8X "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.67 15" (DLSD/HR - Al)
Intro. Date:    October 19, 2005         Disc. Date:    January 10, 2006*
Order No:    M9969LL/A         Model No:    A1138
Subfamily:    15-Inch DL SD         Model ID:    PowerBook5,8
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    128 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    2.4X DL "SuperDrive"
PowerBook G4 1.67 17" (DLSD/HR - Al)
Intro. Date:    October 19, 2005         Disc. Date:    April 24, 2006
Order No:    M9970LL/A         Model No:    A1139
Subfamily:    17-Inch DL SD         Model ID:    PowerBook5,9
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    128 MB
Std. HD:    120 GB (5400 RPM)         Std. Optical:    2.4X DL "SuperDrive"


Power Macintosh G4 1.0 (FW 800)
Intro. Date:    January 28, 2003         Disc. Date:    June 23, 2003
Order No:    M8839LL/A         Model No:    M8570
Subfamily:    Firewire 800         Model ID:    PowerMac3,6
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    60 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    12X "Combo Drive"
Power Macintosh G4 1.25 DP (FW 800)
Intro. Date:    January 28, 2003         Disc. Date:    June 23, 2003
Order No:    M8840LL/A         Model No:    M8570
Subfamily:    Firewire 800         Model ID:    PowerMac3,6
Std. RAM:    256 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    80 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    12X "Combo Drive"
Power Macintosh G4 1.42 DP (FW 800)
Intro. Date:    January 28, 2003         Disc. Date:    June 23, 2003
Order No:    M8841LL/A         Model No:    M8570
Subfamily:    Firewire 800         Model ID:    PowerMac3,6
Std. RAM:    512 MB         Std. VRAM:    64 MB
Std. HD:    120 GB (7200 RPM)         Std. Optical:    4X "SuperDrive"

who will be the first to boot mac os 9 on some of these machines? emac, ibook, imac, powerbook -- these are all waiting to be set free;)
the powerbooks + the ibooks.. so many models

iBook G4/1.42 14" screen
(http://www.laptopguru.ca/admin/upload/Powerbook%20G4.jpg)

iMac G4/1.25 20" screen
(http://imagine41.com/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/p/apple_imac_g4-1.25ghz_20inch_008.jpg)

PowerBook G4 1.67 17" screen
(http://blog.erikyoungren.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/201011050931_504-e1288978083783.jpg)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 27, 2014, 01:55:52 PM
ok that last list was a bit much to handle
heres a minimized list version of all macs that were blocked from booting mac os 9 (X only)

eMac G4/1.25 (USB 2.0)
eMac G4/1.42 (2005)

iBook G4/800 12-Inch (Original - Op)
iBook G4/933 14-Inch (Original - Op)
iBook G4/1.0 14-Inch (Original - Op)
iBook G4/1.0 12-Inch (Early 2004 - Op)
iBook G4/1.0 14-Inch (Early 2004 - Op)
iBook G4/1.2 14-Inch (Early 2004 - Op)
iBook G4/1.2 12-Inch (Late 2004 - Op)
iBook G4/1.33 14-Inch (Late 2004 - Op)
iBook G4/1.33 12-Inch (Mid-2005 - Op)
iBook G4/1.42 14-Inch (Mid-2005 - Op)

iMac G4/800 - X Only (Flat Panel)
iMac G4/1.0 17-Inch (Flat Panel)
iMac G4/1.0 15-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0)
iMac G4/1.25 17-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0)
iMac G4/1.25 20-Inch "FP" (USB 2.0)

Mac mini G4/1.42
Mac mini G4/1.33
Mac mini G4/1.5

PowerBook G4 867 12" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.0 17" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.0 12" (DVI - Al)
PowerBook G4 1.0 15" (FW800 - Al)
PowerBook G4 1.25 15" (FW800 - Al)
PowerBook G4 1.33 17" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.33 12" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.33 15" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.5 15" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.5 17" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.5 12" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.5 15" (SMS/BT2 - Al)

PowerBook G4 1.67 15" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.67 17" (Al)
PowerBook G4 1.67 15" (DLSD/HR - Al)
PowerBook G4 1.67 17" (DLSD/HR - Al)


Power Macintosh G4 1.0 (FW 800) *** unlocked
Power Macintosh G4 1.25 DP (FW 800) *** unlocked
Power Macintosh G4 1.42 DP (FW 800) *** unlocked
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 27, 2014, 03:26:57 PM
ive been reviewing some threads on 68kmla that seem to indicate there are a number of utilities that are able to flash firmware + also talk of a few that are able to save a copy of the firmware made by 3rd party cpu producers like powerlogix

heres an update for the 500-600mhz powerbook g4s (mac os 9 bootable)
http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1141

(http://www.hiwtc.com/photo/products/6/01/29/12909.jpg)
pic of the powerbook g4 667mhz (os9 bootable)

the firmware update requires that you be booted into 9 but i read that there was a way to inject the firmware
by having the file on the drive and installing it via openfirmware which would bypass the version checking that would
take place by mac os 9... the real flashing happens ont he openfirmware level anyway.. so this is similar in theory to how one would open an osx installer app by displaying the contents of a package and directly launching an executable that gets called after the implemented version checks..

the procedure for writing the rom file was already detailed to us by blitter on this thread..
it should be pretty much the same thing to do it on a powerbook rather then a desktop g4.

question is, could flashing a powerbook above 1ghz with a firmware from a 667mhz powerbook
render the powerbook unbootable.. ? i think in this case the benefit to figuring htis out would outweigh the risk!!!!!
especially if a powerbook could be attained for under 50$ which is possible only pretty much for powerbooks under 1ghz
people still are asking 100-200$ for the g4 powerbooks in the 1.x ghz range in my area

it might be worthwhile to find a way to extract the firmware from 1 ghz powerbook g4 somehow
and save that to a file.. like i stated before i think this is totally possible in openfirmware but would require
some skill + perfect execution

and of cousre the only reason why we havent seen these running os 9 yet is.. noone has tried;)
and the cpus are soldered to the motherboard i think otherwise someone would have already swapped a cpu
from a 1.67 into a 1.0ghz

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=762.0;attach=1091;image)
pic of the powerbook g4 1.0ghz
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 30, 2014, 07:00:08 PM
Hi Chris

I've got one of those 1,67 ghz Powerbooks and I would love to have a native Mac OS 9 on it  ;D

Are then the only two things to consider to install from another Mac OS 9 machine the apple hd driver and then to implant that MacOS ROM  9.8.1 on it?

I want to try soonish

raphael

hey raphael... are u ready to try this?
we should begin by comparing your model to the last os9 booting model..are there any large hardware differences?
or are they very similar?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on October 17, 2014, 08:37:41 AM
http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_capability/macs-that-support-macos-9-classic.html
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 09, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
So, first post (should just introduce myself where appropriate)... But been following this thread and a few on other forums for some time and finally caved and purchased a MDD FW800 (and a board from a FW400 I was luck enough to find and put into the FW800 case) so I could run classic. Basically, purchased the machine strictly to run OS 9.2.2 as it was the last OS I ran on my Sonnet G3 upgraded Performance 6400/6500 back in 1997.

Reason I tell that story, as it might be related as 9.2.2 was not meant to run on that Mac (with G3 upgrade or not)... But back then there were a few tricks that later became part of a tool to run Mac OS 9.2.x on older Macs. The search for similar info led me to an interesting thread on another forum in the last few months that many of you may want to take a glance at:

https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46

Figure it might be a good way to get both forums/threads working together.


Update:
MacTron beat me to it -> http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1967.0
Only had the Mac at home (incomplete, dead pram battery etc) for about 2 weeks and I am falling behind before I even get to start.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 09, 2014, 04:48:20 PM
blemk:
u didnt need to buy the fw400 board...
the whole pt of the thread was
that proper os9 booting was disabled by apple at the firmware level on purpose..
we have provided a workaround..
to avoid swapping cpus or motherboards..

but of course u are free to do what u feel is appropriate!

btw welcome to the site ;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 09, 2014, 10:58:41 PM
Yeah, the FW400 board though guaranteed a working OS 9 machine though. As much as I want to study why the FW800 board, I wanted a OS 9 machine for sure plus planned on doing some lower level hardware modifications (adding dipswitches for clock adjustments, experimenting with making a water block mount for water cooling).. And I got it for less than $20.   ;D

If I don't damage the board(s) in any way, plan is to go back to the FW800 board for native Bluetooth and 802.11g, and will likely make a second machine out of the parts I have left from this endeavor.

Having both handy allows for comparison as well.

Thank you for the welcome. Look forward to reading/chatting. Would love to work out some of the issues that come with cross flashing the FW400 firmware on to the FW800 (small, but would rather have all the FW ports working in Classic as the point of the mod is to run Classic it makes more sense to have everything functional there vs in Mac OS X). If it can be done without firmware flash or hardware mod, al the better.

I think someone asked or commented that they could not confirm this, anyone flash the firmware here yet that has an airport extreme card and/or Bluetooth module? Do they work properly in Classic and/or Mac OS X?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 11, 2014, 10:26:40 AM
Reason I tell that story, as it might be related as 9.2.2 was not meant to run on that Mac (with G3 upgrade or not)... But back then there were a few tricks that later became part of a tool to run Mac OS 9.2.x on older Macs. The search for similar info led me to an interesting thread on another forum in the last few months that many of you may want to take a glance at:

https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46

Figure it might be a good way to get both forums/threads working together.


I suppose I should introduce myself. I'm a site administrator over at ThinkClassic and the author of that thread. I was also iMac600 over at the 68kMLA forums, but I haven't been active there in quite some time.

It's been a while since I explored booting Mac OS 9 on that iBook G4. After reading this thread and some of the suggestions put forward here, I've managed to successfully boot Mac OS 9.2 on the iBook. It's not perfect, and there's still a few issues to be resolved, but I'm optimistic that it should be possible to get it to a usable state.

https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46 (https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46)

I'll continue posting more information as I work on it.

Unfortunately I don't have a FW800 MDD to perform any tests with. Perhaps this information may be of use to someone though, and if anyone's successful in installing and booting OS 9 on an unsupported machine, I'd be thrilled to hear it.


Thanks,

iMic.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 11, 2014, 10:52:49 AM
I suppose I should introduce myself. I'm a site administrator over at ThinkClassic and the author of that thread. I was also iMac600 over at the 68kMLA forums, but I haven't been active there in quite some time.

Welcome iMic and congratulations for your great job at https://www.thinkclassic.org

I have copy/pasted some of your work here, just for archiving purpose and ofcourse, pointing  the source.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 11, 2014, 11:27:43 AM
No problem, something like this should be archived in as many places as possible. :)

I've posted a few updates to that thread in the last half hour or so. Mac OS 9.2 is now successfully booting to a usable system on an iBook G4/800MHz, which is pretty remarkable. It's still somewhat "hacky" though. It relies on some Open Firmware commands stored in the NVRAM to make the machine boot and to bypass an issue that holds the internal display at 640 x 480. I'm fairly certain that hardware video acceleration isn't working still as well, so everything runs on the software renderer. Not perfect for anything graphics intensive, but probably still adequate for some applications.

Ideally, I'd be able to find where the issues that the OF commands address lie in the Mac OS ROM and System Suitcase and fix them so I could do away with the need for the Open Firmware commands entirely. That would make the install reasonably reliable (a flat PRAM battery wouldn't render the system un-bootable, for starters).

I also have an iMac G4/1GHz 17" that is OS X-only that I'd be interested to try this on once I have it working correctly. One machine at a time though. :)


Cheers,

iMic.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 11, 2014, 11:43:10 AM
Ideally, I'd be able to find where the issues that the OF commands address lie in the Mac OS ROM and System Suitcase and fix them so I could do away with the need for the Open Firmware commands entirely.

Here is where I've placed some of your work:
take a look at Reply #4

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1967.msg9998#msg9998

So, maybe we already have some of those Open Firmware commands...
I'm waiting for an xServe G4 to test it, and a few things more:

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1964.msg10043#msg10043
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 12, 2014, 12:27:57 PM
I'm cross-posting this from ThinkClassic since I think it's something everyone here may find interesting.


I've compiled all of the fixes in the TC forum thread (http://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46) into a Generic ROM, based off the Mac OS ROM version 10.2.1. The Generic ROM lacks any machine-specific checks (no looking for specific PowerMacX,X or PowerBookX,X identifiers) and is capable of initiating the startup process on any one of the following systems:


This doesn't guarantee that Mac OS 9 will start on your particular hardware configuration, nor does it provide accurate hardware support. Machines like the Power Mac G4 MDD FireWire 800 and iMac G4 Flat Panel 17"/1GHz are more likely to be supported for example, while machines like the Power Mac G5 are basically guaranteed not to work at all.

In addition, hardware support is more likely when you are running the most up-to-date versions of system extensions and drivers. Even some well known Mac OS 9 distributions, such as the common OS9General image, still use older versions of extensions like the Apple Audio Extension. Aim for the absolute latest disk you can. Personally, I used the 922DragInstall for the purposes of testing and it seemed to work well.


An alternate method is still required to format the drive in your Mac to include the Mac OS 9 disk drivers. You can do this by faking your machine identifier to include MacRISC / MacRISC2 in Open Firmware, like so...

Code: [Select]
dev /
.properties
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
multi-boot

...making sure to replace PowerBook4,3 with your machines' ID, then booting from an OS X install disc (the option for Mac OS 9 disk drivers will then be visible in Disk Utility). Alternatively you can connect your machine to an older OS 9 supported Mac via FireWire Target Disk Mode and format the drive from there.


This Generic ROM can be distinguished from the standard version by the differences in its version numbers. Get Info will display the version as Mac OS CPU Software 5.9 (Generic), and System Profiler and About This Mac will display the version as Mac OS ROM 10.2.1 (Generic).


Download

https://app.box.com/s/c98w8ine81ublultkuwp (https://app.box.com/s/c98w8ine81ublultkuwp) (2.6MB .SIT Archive)

Please be aware that this is not a permanent link. If someone here at Mac OS 9 Lives is willing to store it somewhere a little more permanent, that would be fantastic.


(http://s29.postimg.org/gxr1ik807/IMG_7351.jpg)

Mac OS 9.2.2 running on an iBook G4/800MHz with the Generic 10.2.1 ROM.


As always, pictures and a breakdown of what modifications were required and how they were achieved is available in the forum thread over on ThinkClassic (http://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46), and if anyone wants to note it down or keep a version here for archival purposes, that's also more than welcome.

Hopefully this helps to get Mac OS 9 running on some of those FW800 Power Macs as well.


Cheers, :D

iMic.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 12, 2014, 06:29:36 PM
New to both of your forums.. Glad you two are messaging (cross positing hopefully not disliked/prohibited by either of you), again thank you both for two great forums relating to pre-X OS.

I have had a few minutes each night to play with incoming hardware. One of these past days this week, forgot which as I didn't get much time with it, someone hooked me up with a full FW400 machine (dual core 1.0 ghz).. With that said, I have case from FW400 and FW800 and two boards for first and 1 for later that both work. In the great situation to have one of each working (FW400 and FW800, FW800 needs to be put back together in it's original case)... Having both machines functioning will make testing quite a bit quicker as I can simply swap drives from one to the other now. Eager to at least help test if not become more involved sooner than later.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 12, 2014, 06:35:33 PM
hey imic
sorry i didnt read that well..
but.. does this ibook hack work on any speed ibook?
or just the 800mhz?

i was offered one randomly the other day
but im not sure which speed it was.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 12, 2014, 07:14:22 PM
It's a bit hit and miss to as what machines it'll work on. I all depends on what driver support Mac OS 9 has for the hardware it's running on. All this ROM does is remove the machine check that prevents Mac OS 9 from attempting to start up. Whether it successfully completes the boot is still up to the OS.

I tested it on an 800MHz iBook (PowerBook6,3), but it should also work on the 933MHz and 1GHz versions too. It may also work on the later 1.0/1.2/1.33GHz 2004 iBooks (PowerBook6,5) and the 1.33/1.42GHz 2005 iBooks (PowerBook6,7), but I simply don't have these machines to test with. Also keep in mind that even on my iBook, I needed to apply an Open Firmware trick to achieve 1024 x 768 resolution, and there aren't any drivers for the video hardware, so it's limited in its graphics capabilities.

This really is a "try it and see" type project, so if you're up for a challenge, then by all means go ahead and give it a shot.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 13, 2014, 07:23:35 AM
Wow!
Great job with the Mac Os ROM.

I'm cross-posting this from ThinkClassic since I think it's something everyone here may find interesting.

Thank You for posting here your work.

It's a pain that this procedure did not worked with the Mac Mini. The Mother board layout is based on the Intrepid IC, and this IC is supported with Mac Os 9, so in my opinion, may be related with "enabling" the 7447 to Mac Os 9, in the way that some 7448/7447 CPU upgrades do...

It's a bit hit and miss to as what machines it'll work on. I all depends on what driver support Mac OS 9 has for the hardware it's running on. All this ROM does is remove the machine check that prevents Mac OS 9 from attempting to start up. Whether it successfully completes the boot is still up to the OS.

Checking the motherboard layout and all the components will help. Mainly the CPU and the North/South bridges. The motherboard name also helps to identification of similar or different models despite his commercial name.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 13, 2014, 08:46:00 PM
Quote
It's a pain that this procedure did not worked with the Mac Mini. The Mother board layout is based on the Intrepid IC, and this IC is supported with Mac Os 9, so in my opinion, may be related with "enabling" the 7447 to Mac Os 9, in the way that some 7448/7447 CPU upgrades

Here is a 7447a that works under OS 9 like you mentioned
http://www.newertech.com/downloads/nwtmang4max.pdf

Hey Mactron, I'm with you, the I/O controller (Intrepid) will most likely not be an obstacle, and the the Mac Mini G4 (1.25,1.33,1.42,1.5) all use a Radeon 9200 so these systems should be promising...(I was really bummed to see the grey screen on the Mac Mini tested, but the 1.5 is the only one with 64MB vram... we need to test a G4 1.25 Original)
https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=46

On many other unsupported G4s one of our greatest hurdle will be the graphics controller, no Graphics acceleration under OS9 will make or break us... We have made some awesome progress and I thank all of you, but for OS9 to be usable (especially in a DAW environment) we need to get a source to write us some new drivers for some of the basic Video Chip sets that currently elude us.

Also, for our DAW usefulness, the iBooks and iMacs will be more of a novelty, they lack the power (low cache) that we crave.... however, the iMac 17" 1.25 with a 167 bus could be a useful contender as a space saving DAW, so i would love to know if one of these gets fully going in OS 9
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_1.25_17_fp.html

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 13, 2014, 10:38:25 PM
It's a bit hit and miss to as what machines it'll work on. I all depends on what driver support Mac OS 9 has for the hardware it's running on. All this ROM does is remove the machine check that prevents Mac OS 9 from attempting to start up. Whether it successfully completes the boot is still up to the OS.

...

This really is a "try it and see" type project, so if you're up for a challenge, then by all means go ahead and give it a shot.

WOW  :o Where no Mac has been before...


...We need to get a source to write us some new drivers for some of the basic Video Chip sets that currently elude us.


I cannot believe how this post have evolved since I started it...

I have made a new post about developing graphics driver for OS9. Maybe we can go there too. Who knows?

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1985.0 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1985.0)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 14, 2014, 11:48:28 AM
Quote
It's a pain that this procedure did not worked with the Mac Mini. The Mother board layout is based on the Intrepid IC, and this IC is supported with Mac Os 9, so in my opinion, may be related with "enabling" the 7447 to Mac Os 9, in the way that some 7448/7447 CPU upgrades

Here is a 7447a that works under OS 9 like you mentioned
http://www.newertech.com/downloads/nwtmang4max.pdf

Hey Mactron, I'm with you, the I/O controller (Intrepid) will most likely not be an obstacle, and the the Mac Mini G4 (1.25,1.33,1.42,1.5) all use a Radeon 9200 so these systems should be promising...(I was really bummed to see the grey screen on the Mac Mini tested, but the 1.5 is the only one with 64MB vram... we need to test a G4 1.25 Original)

I've attempted to apply some of the PowerLogix / NewerTech fixes on the Mac Mini that allows OS 9 to work with the 7447 CPU. Unfortunately, it still hangs at the grey screen.

https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=3280#p3280 (https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?pid=3280#p3280)

Not really sure where to go from here. Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 14, 2014, 11:58:11 AM
Quote
Not really sure where to go from here...

iMic,

You have already inspired many, where ever you go from here is gravy... thank you for all the hard work... it reminds me of the days we used to use Norton disk edit in MS DOS to Hex out License keys from DBase software Applications (same concept to keep the file the same number of Bytes)... excellent work :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 12:56:41 PM

Not really sure where to go from here. Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.

The machines that left are eMac. Educacional Macs. They are iMacs with CRT and G4...
The first ones 700/800 models are able to boot 9.

This one http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.0.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.0.html) is the easiest. It has the same hardware but if it has superdrive, is OSX only, and with Combo is OS9 able. For sure with your modded ROM DVD model should boot 9.

This http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.25.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.25.html) is a maybe.

The real handicap is http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.42.html (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/emac/specs/emac_1.42.html). This one have a ATI Radeon 9600 graphics with 64 MB of dedicated DDR SDRAM, as well as support for AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth (neither pre-installed) in an all-in-one case with a 17.0" (16.0" viewable area) CRT display (resolution support up to 1280x960 in 24-bit color). This thing would be the hardest for sure...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 14, 2014, 12:57:31 PM
Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.

According to:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/faq/differences-between-mac-mini-g4-models.html

The main difference of your Mac from previous models is the 64MB of VRAM.
This shouldn't have any bad effect. Ask to ClassicHasClass about this,(we have had some interactions in the past)  because he have the only case I know of a unofficial Radeon 9000 with 128 MB of VRAM, instead of the ordinary 64 MB, if I'm not wrong .


Not really sure where to go from here.

Taking a look to the block diagram:

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=762.0;attach=1444)

I can suggest you to try to startup the machine from any means you can, ie CDROM, Firewire, USB...
May be you can circumvent the thing that can't let the Mac Os 9 boot.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 01:37:05 PM

Not really sure where to go from here. Keep in mind that mine is a 1.5GHz last-generation model, which could be part of the problem.
Is possible in openfirmware to limit the amount of the graphics RAM?

I only know of Radeon 9200 PCI working on G3s B&W on OS9. Not sure what drivers you should use for AGP. Maybe 2003' ATI drivers update...

Maybe just the MacMinis are not classics...  >:(  ;D

I am with DieHard. We need to test previous minis...

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 03:53:13 PM
I only know of Radeon 9200 PCI working on G3s B&W on OS9. Not sure what drivers you should use for AGP. Maybe 2003' ATI drivers update...

this topic has been discussed many times her (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1311.msg9863#msg9863)e... u should know.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 14, 2014, 03:58:03 PM
I can suggest you to try to startup the machine from any means you can, ie CDROM, Firewire, USB...
May be you can circumvent the thing that can't let the Mac Os 9 boot.

I've tried booting from the internal hard drive and via FireWire. Still boots to a grey screen. There is also a property in Open Firmware under the graphics accelerator called "VRAM,totalsize" with a default value of 04000000 - I reduced this to 02000000 with no effect.


UPDATE

If I attempt to start Mac OS 9 from within Open Firmware (using boot hd:,\\:tbxi), I do manage to get some text output:

(http://s29.postimg.org/pp6ajycw7/IMG_7389.jpg)

If that's a little difficult to read, it says:

Code: [Select]
, checksum error
Loading ELF

DO-QUIESCE finished

Disregard the Checksum Error. It's because I've modified the ROM to add the additional MacRISC strings. It continues loading even after the checksum error. I can see that Quiesce is called from within the ROM to Open Firmware during startup, but I can't see what should be executing after it, nor do I know what any of it does.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 05:23:32 PM
I can suggest you to try to startup the machine from any means you can, ie CDROM, Firewire, USB...
May be you can circumvent the thing that can't let the Mac Os 9 boot.

I've tried booting from the internal hard drive and via FireWire. Still boots to a grey screen. There is also a property in Open Firmware under the graphics accelerator called "VRAM,totalsize" with a default value of 04000000 - I reduced this to 02000000 with no effect.


UPDATE

If I attempt to start Mac OS 9 from within Open Firmware (using boot hd:,\\:tbxi), I do manage to get some text output:


Do you have the Blutooth or the Extreme cards installed?

Based on MacTron's MacMini there are LOTS of devices that you could "turnoff"  on Mini in OpenFirmware for testing purposes.
(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=762.0;attach=1444)

I mean, in the scenario where you have a FireWire or USB soundcard you could still build a OS9 DAW disabling a any or some of these:


Bluetooth card: There are bluetooth drivers for OS9 http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1300.0 (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1300.0)

USB1

USB2

AirPort Xtreme

microPMU

Modem Module

Audio Codec

Graphics Card (Yes, you can have a headless OS9 DAW thru Timbuktu/VNC)

I would try that.

iMic. Even with most of us been OS9 centric, We,  as part of the living PowerPC community have to give thanks to you also for the develop of Leopard Assist. You have broke barriers in both sides of the wall. You have made TigerOnly computers go Leo and OSXonly computers go back to OS9. THANKS for been a truly liberator.

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
@MacTron: Is the IC of PHY Ethernet the same than in a Sawtooth? It is not Gigabit Ethernet, but 10/100
Is the IC of PHY FW Agere or TI?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 06:45:03 PM
protoolsle5guy;
what makes u think that the key to making anything work is to disable soemthing in openfirmware?
i saw u comment about this before, earlier, perhaps in this very thread, it was in reference to the firewire 800 ports...the presence of the firewire 800 ports is not what stops the mac os boot..

i havent seen many of us really discuss the particulars of what actually happens during a mac os 9 boot ..
a brief revisit to the basics: the mac os rom file effectively replaces the actual chip inside 'old world rom' macs
the mac os rom file itself is actually a CHRP script with another file embedded within itself.. according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_ROM

Quote
The Toolbox ROM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Toolbox) was embedded inside a CHRP script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Hardware_Reference_Platform) in the System Folder called "Mac OS ROM", along with a short loader stub and a copy of the Happy Mac icon suitable for display from Open Firmware. Once the ROM was loaded from disk, the Mac boot sequence continued as usual. As before, Open Firmware (http://web.archive.org/web/20140101113916/http://www.openfirmware.org/) could also run a binary boot loader, and version 3.0 added support for ELF objects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_and_Linkable_Format) as well as the XCOFF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCOFF) files versions 1.0.5 and 2.0 supported. Also, version 3.0 (as well as some of the last releases of version 2.x, starting with the PowerBook 3400) officially supported direct access to the Open Firmware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware) command prompt from the console (by setting the auto-boot? variable to false from Mac OS, or by holding down Command-Option-O-F at boot).

One major difference between Old World ROM Macs and New World ROM Macs, at least in classic Mac OS, is that the Gestalt selector for the machine type is no longer usable; all New World ROM Macs use the same mach ID, 406 decimal, and the actual machine ID is encoded in the "model" and "compatible" properties of the root node of the Open Firmware device tree. The New World ROM also sets the "compatible" property of the root node to "MacRISC2" (machines that can boot classic Mac OS using "Mac OS ROM") or "MacRISC3" (machines that can only boot OS X or another Unix-like system).

reading the threads + posts here i feel that alot of u are out of synch with each other in terms of understanding + in depth knowledge + familiarity with the relevant specifics
perhaps it would be helpful to alll minds readin this thread to revisit in another thread the following:
a) the specifics of what actually happens .. chain of events. order of operations... during a mac os boot..
b) why the firmware rollback of the mdd fw800 to fw400 worked + what exactly it changed that enabled it to work
c) why the changes in the mac os rom edited by imic has enabled a boot WITHOUT a firmware downgrade

i think getting everyone on the same page in understanding these facts will provide groundwork for the next ssteps.
a) should be answerable in detail by examining closely the original "new world rom" documentation from apple (http://web.archive.org/web/20041011114718/http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1167.html)

Quote
Boot Process Overview

The following list is a high level view of the execution path take when a NewWorld-based computer boots Mac OS:

    The POST code runs (preliminary diagnostics, boot beep, initialization, and setup). This is similar to code in a Mac OS ToolBox ROM, but it is different in that it does not contain OS-specific code.

    Open Firmware initializes and begins execution, including building the Device Tree.

    Open Firmware loads the "bootinfo" file, based on defaults and NVRAM settings.

    Open Firmware executes the "Forth" script in the "bootinfo" file, which contains information about the rest of the file and instructions to read both the Trampoline code and the ToolBox ROM Image and place them into a temporary place in memory.

    The "Forth" script transfers control to the Trampoline code, which functions as the transition between Open Firmware and the beginning of the Mac OS execution.

    The Trampoline code gathers information about the system from Open Firmware, creates data structures based on this information, terminates Open Firmware, and rearranges the contents of memory to an interim location in physical memory space.

    The Trampoline code transfers control to the ToolBox ROM Image initialization code.
Startup and the Startup Disk Control Panel

The boot sequence, up to loading and execution of the Mac OS ROM image, is controlled by Open Firmware. To provide a user experience like previous Macintoshes, Open Firmware now supports searching for possible boot devices and user overrides of boot devices using keyboard input such as Command-Shift-Option-Delete or "C" to force booting from a CD-ROM.

When the user selects a startup device in the Startup Disk control panel, Startup Disk no longer sets a value in Mac OS PRAM. Instead it generates an Open Firmware path to the device and saves that path in NVRAM as Open Firmware's "boot-device" configuration variable. Open Firmware tries the device specified by "boot-device" first. If this device is unavailable or the user has overridden this with keyboard input, Open Firmware scans other devices looking for bootable drives. Once Open Firmware selects a device, it sets the "bootpath" property in the "chosen" node to the path to that device. The "bootpath" property is what the Mac OS ROM subsequently uses to locate and load Mac OS from disk.

In order for a device to be bootable, Open Firmware needs methods for accessing the drive. For built-in devices, such as SCSI and ATA, these methods are supplied by Open Firmware. For plug-in cards, the PCI configuration ROM on each card must supply these methods for the card as specified in the PCI Open Firmware binding.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041011114718/http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/pdf/tn1167.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20020305055031/http://www.netneurotic.de/mac/openfirmware.html
http://web.archive.org/web/19990420212629/http://www.openfirmware.org/1275/home.html

i also found this site: http://www.forth.com/
http://softlayer-dal.dl.sourceforge.net/project/thinking-forth/reprint/rel-1.0/thinking-forth-color.pdf
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 07:03:39 PM

Code: [Select]
, checksum error
Loading ELF

DO-QUIESCE finished


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiesce
apparently in programming terms, this means to temporarily pause to allow it to fully complete the previously queued commands.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 14, 2014, 07:10:04 PM
protoolsle5guy;
what makes u think that the key to making anything work is to disable soemthing in openfirmware?
i saw u comment about this before, earlier, perhaps in this very thread, it was in reference to the firewire 800 ports...the presence of the firewire 800 ports is not what stops the mac os boot...

It has a lot of sense. In this way we can isolate and identify what it was causing the Mac Os 9 boot crash. Unless it was the CPU, the RAM or the intrepid IC. LOL


i havent seen many of us really discuss the particulars of what actually happens during a mac os 9 boot ..
...
perhaps it would be helpful to alll minds readin this thread to revisit in another thread the following:
a) the specifics of what actually happens .. chain of events. order of operations... during a mac os boot...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1965.msg9990#msg9990

b) why the firmware rollback of the mdd fw800 to fw400 worked + what exactly it changed that enabled it to work

This was a dangerous and Brute Force method. Thank god it was successful, but it could render the machine unusable forever. And really it was only a question of Mac Os ROM and/or open firmware commands.

-No Fw800, No USB 2... but I had read long time ago that this is posible.

-Format an HD with Mac Os 9 drivers.
-Use a Mac Os ROM version 10.2
-Force the startup with this HD.
... I never tested this, but may help ...

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 07:22:32 PM
> http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1965.msg9990#msg9990
thats strange i dont understand how i could have missed this post.. october 30th?? 2 weeks ago

dont misunderstand these questions as coming from myself... im simply stating that there is a good chance of there being benefit of this information being refreshed for *any reader* of this thread.. for the collective minds to be coming from a solid platform of understanding... rather then having people suggest that we turn things on/off in openfirmware hoping + praying for this to make a huge difference when it wont.. ;D
or hoping for new graphics drivers to be written.. dont hold your breath ;D lol i think theres a bettr chance of being hit by lightning and winning the lottery in the same day..

i dont agree with calling it a dangerous + brute force method at all. the machines are almost identical
it simply undid a change in the combination of machinefirmware / openfirmware settngs code that was placed there on purpose by apple to disable the mac os 9 bootability.
there is no technical reason blocking it from working.. it was deliberate + intentional to disable the os.
as intentional as it was to hold a public funeral.. it doesnt get more deliberate + intentional then that.

the execution of loading of the toolbox image/chrp script was disabled at the openfirmware level..
breaking the chain of events that would lead to a possible boot.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 07:31:45 PM
protoolsle5guy;
what makes u think that the key to making anything work is to disable soemthing in openfirmware?

reading the threads + posts here i feel that alot of u are out of synch with each other in terms of understanding + in depth knowledge + familiarity with the relevant specifics
perhaps it would be helpful to alll minds readin this thread to revisit in another thread the following:
a) the specifics of what actually happens .. chain of events. order of operations... during a mac os boot..
b) why the firmware rollback of the mdd fw800 to fw400 worked + what exactly it changed that enabled it to work
c) why the changes in the mac os rom edited by imic has enabled a boot WITHOUT a firmware downgrade

i think getting everyone on the same page in understanding these facts will provide groundwork for the next ssteps.

iMic has made rom edit+openfirmware to achieve last results.

I know there out is a guy that shutoffs the internal graphics of a beige G3 in openfirmware to get to Leopard (to use a 9200 PCI). Why not do the same to get a MacMini headless OS9 DAW? Yes, I know that the boot disk should be "baked" on a OS9 working machine before trying in the Mini(To install OS9 drivers and VNC).

Also, to shut-down the graphics is the last resource after all the remaining  devices been discarted as OS9'ability blockers. If this thing do not work, a full reset of the machine (PMU and PRAM) should be necesary to take back to life the mini.

I think you can not "make a brick" of a PowerMac with bad OpenFirmware commands, but it seems that the OpenFirmware level of iMic is way ahead ours... MacTron has said that was dangerous. I think that a good total reset (Days without the 3.6 battery +PRAM reset+PMU) can bring to live most fucked things. But better to be safe.

The wound that never heals is cured now.  ;D

We can boot OS9 with 2 differents methods on FW800 machines. Downgrade and Rom edition.

This last method seems to work for the iBook from iMic. But not on the MacMini. That lead DieHard that maybe the trouble was not having source of graphics drivers



Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 07:41:49 PM
i understand your reasoning about the problem of the greyscreen being graphics drivers..
this makes sense to me much in the same way that my powermac g3 450mhz wont boot if i have the radeon 7000 card installed on a vanilla install of 8.6 or 9.0  but it works fine with 9.1 + 9.2 - i wrote recently saying i had to replace the ati rage 128 to be able to install... suggesting that anyone with a g3 absolutely must keep this rage 128 card for situations like this.. but hoping for someone to develop new graphics drivers is a huuuuuuge longshot ;D but its understandable given the history here this thread started frm a silly post like that about *impossible things* not so long ago right ;D lol lol ptleguy thinks hey.. fuck it . why not try to start a new miracle thread ;D hahahah

but: re graphics cards / drivers being the cause of non-boot
dont  forget that japamac claimed to hav booted mac os 9 on many unsupported video cards.. such as the radeon 9800 etc (albeit without 'accelleration')
looking back to the thread of filiphuezen or whatever did he get a grey screen on boot with his radeon 9200?
his card never worked untill he used the freshdraginstall with updated video drivers
which leads me to ask: which install was iMic using with the above test?
and which versions of the ati driver extensions
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 07:55:06 PM

which leads me to ask: which install was iMic using with the above test?
and which versions of the ati driver extensions

He said he is using DieHard Drag'n'drop with 10.x AppleRomRamWhatever is called.

Who is the one a little late on news now, Chris?  ;D ;D ;D ;D

That is why I told ten post before
 

I only know of Radeon 9200 PCI working on G3s B&W on OS9. Not sure what drivers you should use for AGP. Maybe 2003' ATI drivers update...


I have to remind you all that after installing the drivers/extensions to use a Radeon 9000 on a DA, after returning the card to owner, the system couldn't boot with only a RAGE 128Pro.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
i understand your reasoning about the problem of the greyscreen being graphics drivers..
Mine, iMic, MacTron or DieHard approach?    :P

this makes sense to me much in the same way that my powermac g3 450MHz wont boot if i have the radeon 7000 card installed on a vanilla install of 8.6 or 9.0  but it works fine with 9.1 + 9.2 - i wrote recently saying i had to replace the ati rage 128 to be able to install... suggesting that anyone with a g3 absolutely must keep this rage 128 card for situations like this..

Oranges and Apples?

but hoping for someone to develop new graphics drivers is a huuuuuuge longshot ;D but its understandable given the history here this thread started frm a silly post like that about *impossible things* not so long ago right ;D lol lol ptleguy thinks hey.. fuck it . why not try to start a new miracle thread ;D hahahah

>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I do not know how to politely answer you. But I will try. Even after you insulting the work of MacTron, Syntho, Jakl, DieHard, lokki, SnakeCoils, Blitter, blemk, iMic and even yours own efforts calling it a
Quote
a silly post like that about impossible things
.I honestly was just asking publicly to DieHard and diehard MacOS9 users if they were aware of HardWare/Software Mods to achieve that.

Most humans-catolics after seen a miracle became believers/develop faith.   :P   But you...  :(

We, now, having more than 700 members and growing, have the advantage of having many OldSkool users and artists, Internet Archive (WayBackMachine), actual cost of PowerMacs and a passion to use these machines to the limits (MacTron beyond them  ;D ). This thing is growing. We were/are in contact with Classic-HasClass (His blog is funny and formative) and soon more developers could join us, (hopefully some former Nvidia/ATI developer) maybe filling the gaps in documentation we have in graphic devices today.

Yeah, I know this is wishfull thinking, and you even laught about it,  but who knows? The partnership between MacOS9Lives! and ThinkClassic is giving unsuspected results. The more who join us, the easiest to know a guy who knows a guy that do @@@

Also Nostalgia of better times play on ouf favor...  ;D


Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 14, 2014, 10:37:51 PM
iMic,

You have already inspired many, where ever you go from here is gravy... thank you for all the hard work... it reminds me of the days we used to use Norton disk edit in MS DOS to Hex out License keys from DBase software Applications (same concept to keep the file the same number of Bytes)... excellent work :)

Admittedly most of it was trial and error over a span of several months, and thankfully most of the data that needed to be modified (such as the machine identifier list) was stored in plain text in the Resource Fork. Anything more involved than that and my knowledge hits its limitations. Like editing the bits of an old DOS application though, it's always a thrill when it all comes together and works at the end. :)


iMic. Even with most of us been OS9 centric, We,  as part of the living PowerPC community have to give thanks to you also for the develop of Leopard Assist. You have broke barriers in both sides of the wall. You have made TigerOnly computers go Leo and OSXonly computers go back to OS9. THANKS for been a truly liberator.

Thanks for the encouraging comments. :) Most of these tools, be it the OS 9 ROM or LeopardAssist, were usually developed because I had a need for them myself. With LeopardAssist, it was because my 733MHz QuickSilver G4 fell short of the 867MHz requirement. With this ROM project, it was because I wanted to see OS 9 boot on an iBook G4. It's always nice to share the finished product though so others can benefit from the work as well.

With LeopardAssist being updated to version 3 in January, the launch of ThinkClassic in May and now this new ROM release, it's certainly been a busy year here for older Mac related projects.


I think you can not "make a brick" of a PowerMac with bad OpenFirmware commands, but it seems that the OpenFirmware level of iMic is way ahead ours... MacTron has said that was dangerous.

This last method seems to work for the iBook from iMic. But not on the MacMini. That lead DieHard that maybe the trouble was not having source of graphics drivers

I wouldn't suggest my knowledge of Open Firmware is extensive... I think I've bashed around in Open Firmware more in the last three days or so than I have in my entire life combined prior to this experiment. I'm still finding out new things here and there as I go along.

Interestingly I have managed to brick one Logic Board with bad Open Firmware commands. My Sawtooth (AGP Graphics) Power Mac G4 failed after a botched write to the NVRAM with an early test version of LeopardAssist in 2008. I never did figure out entirely what caused the machine to react so badly to it.

For what it's worth, the iBook lacks graphics drivers as well. It's locked to Millions of Colours and 1024 x 768 as a result, and a patch is needed to disable the second display. It's rather frustrating as I had hoped to run SimCity 2000 on the iBook, but of course it needs to switch down to 256 colour mode to run, which this machine can't do.


i dont agree with calling it a dangerous + brute force method at all. the machines are almost identical
it simply undid a change in the combination of machinefirmware / openfirmware settngs code that was placed there on purpose by apple to disable the mac os 9 bootability.
there is no technical reason blocking it from working.. it was deliberate + intentional to disable the os.
as intentional as it was to hold a public funeral.. it doesnt get more deliberate + intentional then that.

the execution of loading of the toolbox image/chrp script was disabled at the openfirmware level..
breaking the chain of events that would lead to a possible boot.

I don't have a FW800 MDD myself otherwise I'd test this theory, but did Apple actually place a block in the firmware to prevent OS 9 from running? To me it seems that the likely change was the switch from MacRISC2 to MacRISC3 in the FW800's firmware, which prevented the Mac OS ROM from being classed as a valid boot file on the machine. Perhaps this altered ROM, with the added MacRISC3 compatible flag, would permit a successful boot into Mac OS 9 without having to flash an older firmware version on the machine?


i understand your reasoning about the problem of the greyscreen being graphics drivers..
this makes sense to me much in the same way that my powermac g3 450mhz wont boot if i have the radeon 7000 card installed on a vanilla install of 8.6 or 9.0  but it works fine with 9.1 + 9.2 - i wrote recently saying i had to replace the ati rage 128 to be able to install... suggesting that anyone with a g3 absolutely must keep this rage 128 card for situations like this.. but hoping for someone to develop new graphics drivers is a huuuuuuge longshot ;D but its understandable given the history here this thread started frm a silly post like that about *impossible things* not so long ago right ;D lol lol ptleguy thinks hey.. fuck it . why not try to start a new miracle thread ;D hahahah

but: re graphics cards / drivers being the cause of non-boot
dont  forget that japamac claimed to hav booted mac os 9 on many unsupported video cards.. such as the radeon 9800 etc (albeit without 'accelleration')
looking back to the thread of filiphuezen or whatever did he get a grey screen on boot with his radeon 9200?
his card never worked untill he used the freshdraginstall with updated video drivers

I'm curious to see how much a contributing factor the graphics chip plays in holding up the Mac OS 9 boot process. As I mentioned above, the onboard GPU isn't detected correctly by OS 9 in this iBook either, however that doesn't stop it from booting.

As it stands the boot attempt on the Mac Mini is being halted before the Happy Mac even appears, suggesting that it isn't even reaching the point where extensions or graphics drivers would come into play. Of course, I could be mistaken.


which leads me to ask: which install was iMic using with the above test?
and which versions of the ati driver extensions

As was mentioned above by Protools5LEGuy, I'm using the 922 Drag Install (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1859.0) with Mac OS ROM 10.2.1. I've also tested the machine with the ATI Radeon 9200 Mac Edition drivers and the ATI 2005 Driver Update, however neither of these have had any effect on any of these machines whatsoever.


Yeah, I know this is wishfull thinking, and you even laught about it,  but who knows? The partnership between MacOS9Lives! and ThinkClassic is giving unsuspected results. The more who join us, the easiest to know a guy who knows a guy that do @@@

It's fairly impressive what can be achieved when our communities work together, isn't it? Personally I think it's been fantastic collaborating with Mac OS 9 Lives on this project. Some of the information here has been extremely valuable, especially the documentation and threads on Open Firmware.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 10:55:30 PM
changing one 2 to a 3... ?
1 digit? could it be actually 1 digit that prevents the os9 boot?
my understanding already was that it was something preventing some part of the loading mechanism from recognizing the toolbox image as valid....
now that i consider the impact of this (macrisc2 vs macrisc3) it is logical that this could indeed be the reason

but!! does this logic also fit with the truths that were held previously:

-placing a fw800 cpu into a fw400 logic board resulted in a mac os 9 bootable system,
-replacing a fw400 cpu into a fw800 logicboard resulted in a nonbooting system

is it the cpu or the motherboard that determines if it is 'macrisc2' or 'macrisc3'
this seems to be stored in the firmware.. so.. if it is in the firmware... this is the only
explanation as to why replacing the old fw400 mobo with a new cpu still works.. and the opposite
(fw400 cpu in a fw800 mobo) does not..

so yea what u have done is to hack the rom to allow booting from the native cpu type..
effectively changing the equality of a programmatic check to ring true rather then false
allowing the boot to proceed.. genius..
i personally thought there was more to it then 1 digit...
involving all areas
ie: machine firmware, openfirmware, the chrp portion of the mac os rom, and the tbxi image contained within the mac os rom
so really you have just edited the chrp/elf portion of the mac os rom

so to think logically... the 10.2.1 rom file was created for the mdd's as far as we have established
keepin in mind that the single rom file is , in fact an actual script /w an embedded toolbox image..
theres 2 variables there.. thetoolbox image has to match the hardware.... and the script, as u have established, has to also support the hardware/processor type.

i wonder if u could somehow save this 'macrisc3' property into nv-ram in openfirmware with the right parameter name and make this a lot easier.. in that u could quickly test it on many machines without even copying a file, just doing a quick OFW boot..


as it says on wiki:
Quote
One major difference between Old World ROM Macs and New World ROM Macs, at least in classic Mac OS, is that the Gestalt selector for the machine type is no longer usable; all New World ROM Macs use the same mach ID, 406 decimal, and the actual machine ID is encoded in the "model" and "compatible" properties of the root node of the Open Firmware device tree. The New World ROM also sets the "compatible" property of the root node to "MacRISC2" (machines that can boot classic Mac OS using "Mac OS ROM") or "MacRISC3" (machines that can only boot OS X or another Unix-like system).

if it is indeed the "macrisc3" string that enables/disables boot.. this info is contained in *the root node of the open firmware device tree* with property name "compatible"
can't we just overwrite this parameter in openfirmware nv-ram?? rather then having to change the 'mac os rom' ??....


but i have also seen this comptatible node in CHRP script so does this property exist in both the mac os rom as well as the openfirmware device tree.. and the chrp script is comparing the values??
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 11:11:22 PM


Yeah, I know this is wishfull thinking, and you even laught about it,  but who knows? The partnership between MacOS9Lives! and ThinkClassic is giving unsuspected results. The more who join us, the easiest to know a guy who knows a guy that do @@@

It's fairly impressive what can be achieved when our communities work together, isn't it? Personally I think it's been fantastic collaborating with Mac OS 9 Lives on this project. Some of the information here has been extremely valuable, especially the documentation and threads on Open Firmware.

You and MacTron have folks everywhere...  ;D Maybe we could join some friends from 68kla, and MacRumors too. DieHard said :

Quote
The Mac OS 9 Lives Forum will now be dedicated to...
1) Installing, Maintaining, and Extending the functionality of Mac OS 9
2) Installing Digital Audio Software & Music/MIDI Hardware interfaces
3) General questions for Mac OS 9 enthusiasts.


And the point 1 and 3 are really close to ThinkClassic. Also that spirit is present on some 68kla users and in a small degree in MacRumors PowerPC forums, been those last more centric on OSX. We all use the same machines. Tower of Babylon thing, because everyone have a point in their opinions. Most Graphic designer were happy going to OSX...http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1721626&highlight=os9 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1721626&highlight=os9)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 11:24:15 PM
i think ptleguy is drunk
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 11:33:00 PM
i think ptleguy is drunk
Drunk people always say the truth.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Cheers!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 15, 2014, 01:02:33 AM
if it is indeed the "macrisc3" string that enables/disables boot.. this info is contained in *the root node of the open firmware device tree* with property name "compatible"
can't we just overwrite this parameter in openfirmware nv-ram?? rather then having to change the 'mac os rom' ??....


The Mac OS ROM checks for MacRISC or MacRISC2 when determining whether the computer can start booting into Mac OS 9. Adding MacRISC or MacRISC2 to the compatible property will allow this check to pass without using a modified ROM.

In the second stage of the boot, the ROM checks to see whether the model identifier (so PowerBook4,3 for example) is listed as compatible in the ROM.

You can fix both of these issues in NVRAM without a modified ROM, like so:

Code: [Select]
dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

To make it apply automatically with each boot:

Quote
nvedit

dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

(Press Ctrl + C)

nvstore

setenv use-nvramrc? true

reset-all

Replace PowerBook4,3 with the model identifier of a Mac OS 9 compatible Mac. Take my iBook G4 for example. It's a PowerBook6,3, but because Mac OS 9 doesn't recognise that model, it crashes with an Error Type 102 on startup. If I tell the NVRAM that the computer is a PowerBook4,3 though (iBook G3), Mac OS 9 will start to boot successfully.

The reason I patched the Mac OS ROM is because if the NVRAM ever clears, the machine will be rendered unbootable until you re-enter these commands into the NVRAM.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 15, 2014, 02:39:31 AM

so to think logically... the 10.2.1 rom file was created for the mdd's as far as we have established
Not in the sense you'll think. IMHO
Quote
keepin in mind that the single rom file is , in fact an actual script /w an embedded toolbox image..

... and a real extension and upgrade of the System file... and may be, few things more.

It's fairly impressive what can be achieved when our communities work together, isn't it? Personally I think it's been fantastic collaborating with Mac OS 9 Lives on this project.

Absolutely agree.  :)

Quote
Some of the information here has been extremely valuable, especially the documentation and threads on Open Firmware.

Those post was placed by myself (including some from Think Classic) due to a similar project with a xServe, and to avoid some dangerous reflashing fever around here. But seems that few or nobody have read them... LOL

This xServe projet is in standby mode by now, in waiting for the hardware to arrive...
A lot of thing are more clear now... but even if the xServe Mac Os 9 boot process, stops like the Mini, we'll try to learn something new.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 15, 2014, 07:03:06 AM

Those post was placed by myself (including some from Think Classic) due to a similar project with a xServe, and to avoid some dangerous reflashing fever around here. But seems that few or nobody have read them... LOL


Reading and Fully Understanding are two different things.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 15, 2014, 07:07:16 AM
Code: [Select]
dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

To make it apply automatically with each boot:

Quote
nvedit

dev /
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " model" property
" PowerBook4,3" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRiSC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property

(Press Ctrl + C)

nvstore

setenv use-nvramrc? true

reset-all
excellent post ;0 thank you!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 18, 2014, 06:27:43 PM
Wow.. Barely got to touch my two MDDs (400/800) in the last few weeks yet.... come back to this thread after joining and mentioning the threads from both forums and man you guys moved fast when combining information.   Looks like FW800 should be a breeze with modified Mac OS ROM (or without) with a few Open Firmware commands. Just starting to escape work, but once I do I will give it a go on FW800 MDD..  So exciting  :D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 18, 2014, 06:50:56 PM
Hmm. Finished reading through 3 threads (2 here, one ThinkClassic where iMic's thread is)..

Modified Mac OS ROM with generic MacRISCX entries takes care of Mac OS ROM..  Next thing that comes to mind to kill off another need for the simple open firmware identity spoofing, would be patched last version of DiskUtility that is likely doing it's own check when deciding to display the "Mac OS 9 Driver" option. Other thoughts that come to mind, what if we DD read a raw device (disk that has Mac OS 9 driver) and a very small partition on it (blank even) and DD write it back to a disk you want to use for Mac OS 9?  Would result in the required driver and partition structure being present (although potentially a very small and useless partition size). But partition size could simply be resized to a bigger size after the dd write put down the required driver/partition as DiskUtility will not longer be needed to create the driver.

From there, iMic already noted it, if we build a new bootable OS 9 CD that has the generic modified rom, we can restore Mac OS and do blessing from Mac OS 9 CD..

Given all of the above (actually being possible), would go down as:

Needed:   1 Modified Mac OS 9 bootable CD image with modified Mac OS ROM, 1 DD created image of small Mac OS 9 driver partitioned disk.

Process:

1. DD write image to new disk for use as OS 9.
2. Resize partition to take space desired on disk for OS 9 partition
3. Boot modified Mac OS 9 boot cd with generic ROM.
4. Restore OS 9, copy modified rom if not in image/system-folder, and bless from within OS booting from CD rom.

Some of above would be even easier for those not familiar with raw disk images from DD and similar if a modified DiskUtility from OS X could be made, but I could see dropping a raw disk image from Linux or windows (on a non- Apple OS) easily enough.

Thoughts? Ramblings of a mad man that bare has one of these pre-OS X macs up in running in his living room?  :o
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 18, 2014, 11:32:01 PM
Modified Mac OS ROM with generic MacRISCX entries takes care of Mac OS ROM..  Next thing that comes to mind to kill off another need for the simple open firmware identity spoofing, would be patched last version of DiskUtility that is likely doing it's own check when deciding to display the "Mac OS 9 Driver" option.


It looks like the series check is being performed in Disk Utility.app > Contents > MacOS > Disk Utility. I've opened the Panther version (10.3.5, Disk Utility v10.4.3) with a hex editor and sure enough it contains the following line:

Code: [Select]
/compatibleIOService:/MacRISCMacRISC2
I've altered this to also include MacRISC3 and MacRISC4. I've also trimmed some of the blank space so the file retains the same byte count (0x4C6BC). I'll attempt to start up from the Panther CD and launch the patched version later to see if it works.

I'd imagine that older and newer releases of Disk Utility are the same or very similar.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 28, 2014, 01:55:00 PM
So.. Holiday over and a day of vacation.. ..   The real FW400 machine is almost completely ready (short of some more software installs), but used it for some testing with the FW800.

Interesting note, MacRISC2 is present on the FW400 but MacRISC (no number revision) is not. Buy I have had to add MacRISC to the FW800 to get it to boot OS 9 with a 9.6.x (forgot what version) Mac OS ROM file. Haven't tested with 10.2.x Mac OS ROM (modified by imic or unmodified yet).

Anyway, ran into an interesting read about an open firmware hack/mod for enable hibernate like functionality on older G4 hardware in Mac OS 10.4.x. I mention it, because it made me think of Mac OS X "nvram" command/app.  https://matt.ucc.asn.au/apple/machibernate.html

Haven't tested this (will later today), but modified a script posted on the above site (very simple script, and very slight change) to allow you to make the needed changes to nvramrc (so the open firmware changes are done on each boot like imic noted).. But likely easier for someone not comfortable with open firmware. This should run from a OS X setup disk so you can boot the OS X disk, run the script, reboot again to OS X setup disk or OS X install if you prefer, and then be able to run Disk Utility and be presented with the "OS 9 Drivers" option when partitioning/formatting a drive for OS 9. Otherwise, it is a nice way to restore the nvramrc script if you ever clear your nvram (intentionally or otherwise) and eliminates the need for the modded Mac OS ROM if you have nay reason to not use it.

Code: [Select]
#!/bin/sh
echo Enabling OS 9 booting...
echo "You may have to enter your password"
# Use nvram command to setup nvramrc with script to make open firmware changes
sudo nvram nvramrc='" /" select-dev
" PowerMac3,6" encode-string " model" property
" PowerMac3,6" encode-string " MacRISC" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC2" encode-string encode+ " MacRISC3" encode-string encode+ " Power Macintosh" encode-string encode+ " compatible" property
unselect
'
# Enable use of nvramrc on boot. Change to "false" if you want to disable again. Or just clear/reset nvram.
sudo nvram "use-nvramrc?"=true
echo done.

Save to a .sh file (name of your choice really) and you are good to go.

Again, haven't tested yet.. But see no reason it should not set the nvramrc up as needed. Nice thing, you can use the script as a stating point to get OS 9 going even if you do not have another machine handy for the initial OS 9 drive creation. I also still like the idea of this nvram change more then just a modded OS 9 Mac OS ROM as it allows OS X Disk Utility and Startup preferences panel to see and select/set OS 9 boot correctly. Would do both (nvramrc/openfirwmare change and modded Mac OS ROM file).

Now, quick confirmation of a few things for anyone wanting to know:

Bluetooth and wifi, OS X with open firmware changes sees both and they work fine (as expected.
OS 9 can see the Bluetooth device. Haven't tried the open source drivers out there to see if it work. Given the FW800 bluetooh module appears to be a another simple USB connected device (like modem) and uses the same hardware as some supported USB dongles I can't see why it wouldn't work.
OS 9 AirPort drivers (not even latest versions I have seen) work for a FW800 AirPort Extreme Card. :( So be prepared to not count on 802.11g AirPort card (at 802.11g or 802.11b).
Onboard Firewire ports on the FW800 behave fine (all at 400, limited, speed though).

Otherwise, everything behaves great so far. This remind me of XPostFacto.... Anyone want to make a 9PostFacto?   :D

Thank you all again for chatting and bringing info together to make this happen. Now I have the hard choice of deciding if I should build up both the machines for OS 9 or get rid of 1 (only intended to have 1 working machine out of the parts I obtained).

Still going to see if I can dd or otherwise raw capture a blank OS 9 driver partitioned/formatted drive to see if this can all be done without touching open firmware at all to be able to get an OS 9 install down on a drive without any existing OS 9 capable machine handy.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 28, 2014, 09:05:58 PM
Script I posted earlier/above works great (I loose the script in nvram every so often as I have a dying battery in my FW800 as I used the one good battery in the FW400 machine).. But it works, and easy to recover (I just boot into X of some sort and run the script and reboot). A bit safer than typing in open firmware the long commands and certainly quicker.

Change the "PowerMac3,6" to something else for experimenting with other devices you might be trying to get OS 9 booting on..
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 28, 2014, 10:57:03 PM
if you wrote this script blemk then cheers, i salute you 8) i had a feeling something like that was possible! :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 29, 2014, 12:52:18 AM
Wow... This is awesome, to summarize we are left with 3 methods to achieve Mac OS 9 booting on unsupported hardware...

Our first method, the force burning of "cross species G4 firmware updates" should obviously be avoided since it gives Mactron high blood pressure and since the outcome may result in some really FUBARed G4s that end up as eWaste... so I am asking the troops to incorporate the remaining 2 methods (modified ROM OR NVRAM Variable substitution) into easy newbie-style toast images or DMG files that we can post for the masses; this will yield the information needed to create a new thread that will detail user accounts of different unsupported G4 Model booting and results.

So, to Blemk (or anyone else with the energy), I ask, for us to streamline the process by creating...

1) A Bootable Mac OS 9.2.2 CD Image (with Modified iMic 10.2.1 ROM in system folder) that also contains modified Disk Utility (if needed) and an ASR Image that will restore to a fresh volume that also contains Modified iMic 10.2.1 ROM; in other words a New 2015 Mac OS 9.2.2 bootable install CD that we can immediately distribute to get some real world testing going...

AND/OR

2) A Bootable OS X (10.x) CD that contains 2 scripts (or 1 with choices) that...

A) Sets NVRAM for OS 9 Boot so that a normal Mac OS 9 install can be tested AND B) Resets NVRAM back to factory when testing is done

I know this is a lot to ask, but it would expedite the process of testing different machines for OS9 functionality.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 29, 2014, 12:15:43 PM

So, to Blemk (or anyone else with the energy), I ask, for us to streamline the process by creating...

1) A Bootable Mac OS 9.2.2 CD Image (with Modified iMic 10.2.1 ROM in system folder) that also contains modified Disk Utility (if needed) and an ASR Image that will restore to a fresh volume that also contains Modified iMic 10.2.1 ROM; in other words a New 2015 Mac OS 9.2.2 bootable install CD that we can immediately distribute to get some real world testing going...

AND/OR

2) A Bootable OS X (10.x) CD that contains 2 scripts (or 1 with choices) that...

A) Sets NVRAM for OS 9 Boot so that a normal Mac OS 9 install can be tested AND B) Resets NVRAM back to factory when testing is done

I know this is a lot to ask, but it would expedite the process of testing different machines for OS9 functionality.

Use of nvram command in os x was just idea I picked up from a similar open firmware hack/tweak. Not a very complicated script in the first place but put to good use. I just modified what the script is injecting into open firmware.

Time permitting on the rest of my long weekend.. I had plans for OS bootable disk with updated/modified rom..      OS X disk.. Could build it with the script but not sure it is worth it as the script can reside on a USB pen drive easy enough (boot CD/DVD, access script on usb pen drive).

Going to see if I can build the OS disk and put the apparently rare OS 9 ASR tool on it and use it to restore OS 9 image from OS 9 CD image with the modified rom. Would love to find a tool like "nvram" command in OS X that could run from OS 9 so I didn't even have to touch OS X to do this.

In either case, need to get tools to rebuild a OS 9 (or earlier) bootable CD image going. Been ages since I have done so. Wasn't hard with right software tools handy.

BTW, modded Disk Utility is not needed after open firmware changes. As imic noted, it appears to be checking for MacRISC/MacRISC2 as well when deciding to show "OS 9 Driver" option or not. So, only way you would need it (like modified Mac OS ROM) is if you don't do the open firmware change or the change is reset by clearing nvram.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 29, 2014, 01:02:51 PM
AND[/i] B) Resets NVRAM back to factory when testing is done

Press and hold the Option-Command-P-R keys at system boot. LOL
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 29, 2014, 01:06:43 PM
Use of nvram command in os x was just idea I picked up from a similar open firmware hack/tweak. Not a very complicated script in the first place but put to good use. I just modified what the script is injecting into open firmware.

Time permitting on the rest of my long weekend.. I had plans for OS bootable disk with updated/modified rom..      OS X disk.. Could build it with the script but not sure it is worth it as the script can reside on a USB pen drive easy enough (boot CD/DVD, access script on usb pen drive).

Going to see if I can build the OS disk and put the apparently rare OS 9 ASR tool on it and use it to restore OS 9 image from OS 9 CD image with the modified rom. Would love to find a tool like "nvram" command in OS X that could run from OS 9 so I didn't even have to touch OS X to do this.

In either case, need to get tools to rebuild a OS 9 (or earlier) bootable CD image going. Been ages since I have done so. Wasn't hard with right software tools handy.

BTW, modded Disk Utility is not needed after open firmware changes. As imic noted, it appears to be checking for MacRISC/MacRISC2 as well when deciding to show "OS 9 Driver" option or not. So, only way you would need it (like modified Mac OS ROM) is if you don't do the open firmware change or the change is reset by clearing nvram.

You don't need a Mac Os 9 or X boot disk to apply a Open Firmware script. There is a special and very small boot image from NewerTech, that can do this ...
I can provide it, if it is needed.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 29, 2014, 01:47:18 PM
Quote
BTW, modded Disk Utility is not needed after open firmware changes. As imic noted, it appears to be checking for MacRISC/MacRISC2 as well when deciding to show "OS 9 Driver" option or not. So, only way you would need it (like modified Mac OS ROM) is if you don't do the open firmware change or the change is reset by clearing nvram.

I understand that, but I am assuming the user will use 1 method or the other (not a combination of both);

So let's talk about the modified ROM method for a moments.  If a novice user downloads the Modified 2015 OS9 Install CD with ASR (vaporware right now ), then I am assuming the root level tools that check Risc (like Drive Setup) should also be modified.  This would make a useable/bootable CD that a beginner could use to...
1) Boot the unsupported Mac
2) Create a Volume
3) Use ASR to recover Modified ROM version of 9.2.2 (with modified Drive setup) and never have to do the NVRAM at all

OR with Method 2

1) Boot to a CD that autoruns script
2) Install Mac OS 9.2.2 at usual without Modified ROM

Then we can sit back and have many users test

Mactron...
Quote
You don't need a Mac Os 9 or X boot disk to apply a Open Firmware script. There is a special and very small boot image from NewerTech, that can do this ...I can provide it, if it is needed.
Can you make a bootable Toast image with the newertech CD that runs the script automatically or at least an idiot proof version and Upload it ASAP ?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: iMic on November 29, 2014, 04:51:39 PM
Quote
BTW, modded Disk Utility is not needed after open firmware changes. As imic noted, it appears to be checking for MacRISC/MacRISC2 as well when deciding to show "OS 9 Driver" option or not. So, only way you would need it (like modified Mac OS ROM) is if you don't do the open firmware change or the change is reset by clearing nvram.

I understand that, but I am assuming the user will use 1 method or the other (not a combination of both);

So let's talk about the modified ROM method for a moments.  If a novice user downloads the Modified 2015 OS9 Install CD with ASR (vaporware right now ), then I am assuming the root level tools that check Risc (like Drive Setup) should also be modified.  This would make a useable/bootable CD that a beginner could use to...
1) Boot the unsupported Mac
2) Create a Volume
3) Use ASR to recover Modified ROM version of 9.2.2 (with modified Drive setup) and never have to do the NVRAM at all

I'm fairly confident that once you're booted into OS 9, that's the majority of the work done. Drive Setup doesn't check the architecture it's running on, so it doesn't need to be modified to create volumes with OS 9 disk drivers on unsupported machines. After all, it needs to be booted into OS 9 to be run in the first place, something an unsupported machine can't natively do - that's a good enough machine check if you ask me!

The modification I made to Disk Utility is for OS X Panther. It allows the creation of OS 9 compatible volumes from within Mac OS X or the OS X installer disc.

Unless I'm mistaken, creating an installer disc should be as simple as taking a standard OS 9 installation disc, updating the extensions in the Extensions folder to the latest versions (where applicable, just to make sure the disc has the latest possible bootable system software on it), throwing the modified Mac OS ROM into the system folder and burning it to disc.

Installing the modified system could be done with ASR. If I could somehow extract, modify and archive the contents of the installation tome, then it could even in theory be done with the standard Mac OS 9 installer. I haven't looked into how to do this as of yet though.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 29, 2014, 04:55:48 PM
iMic,

We got the ASR down to a Science, so we can make our own disk image (with the modified ROM included) and use the ASR.

If I have time I will create the Install CD after I am done with the DAW ASR Imaage I have been working on :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 29, 2014, 05:13:55 PM
There is a new member with an eMac unsupported. We need the new install soon.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 29, 2014, 07:32:05 PM
Use of nvram command in os x was just idea I picked up from a similar open firmware hack/tweak. Not a very complicated script in the first place but put to good use. I just modified what the script is injecting into open firmware.

Time permitting on the rest of my long weekend.. I had plans for OS bootable disk with updated/modified rom..      OS X disk.. Could build it with the script but not sure it is worth it as the script can reside on a USB pen drive easy enough (boot CD/DVD, access script on usb pen drive).

Going to see if I can build the OS disk and put the apparently rare OS 9 ASR tool on it and use it to restore OS 9 image from OS 9 CD image with the modified rom. Would love to find a tool like "nvram" command in OS X that could run from OS 9 so I didn't even have to touch OS X to do this.

In either case, need to get tools to rebuild a OS 9 (or earlier) bootable CD image going. Been ages since I have done so. Wasn't hard with right software tools handy.

BTW, modded Disk Utility is not needed after open firmware changes. As imic noted, it appears to be checking for MacRISC/MacRISC2 as well when deciding to show "OS 9 Driver" option or not. So, only way you would need it (like modified Mac OS ROM) is if you don't do the open firmware change or the change is reset by clearing nvram.

You don't need a Mac Os 9 or X boot disk to apply a Open Firmware script. There is a special and very small boot image from NewerTech, that can do this ...
I can provide it, if it is needed.

Was wondering if someone had one of the disks from one of the may cpu upgrade makers that might be easily modified. ;)

Still would like a single do it all boot disk for getting os 9 down on a machine if possible..  Both options will reduce need for understanding or potential risk for those that may feel less comfortable with all of this to get os 9 going.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 29, 2014, 07:35:27 PM
Quote
BTW, modded Disk Utility is not needed after open firmware changes. As imic noted, it appears to be checking for MacRISC/MacRISC2 as well when deciding to show "OS 9 Driver" option or not. So, only way you would need it (like modified Mac OS ROM) is if you don't do the open firmware change or the change is reset by clearing nvram.

I understand that, but I am assuming the user will use 1 method or the other (not a combination of both);

So let's talk about the modified ROM method for a moments.  If a novice user downloads the Modified 2015 OS9 Install CD with ASR (vaporware right now ), then I am assuming the root level tools that check Risc (like Drive Setup) should also be modified.  This would make a useable/bootable CD that a beginner could use to...
1) Boot the unsupported Mac
2) Create a Volume
3) Use ASR to recover Modified ROM version of 9.2.2 (with modified Drive setup) and never have to do the NVRAM at all

OR with Method 2

1) Boot to a CD that autoruns script
2) Install Mac OS 9.2.2 at usual without Modified ROM

Then we can sit back and have many users test

Mactron...
Quote
You don't need a Mac Os 9 or X boot disk to apply a Open Firmware script. There is a special and very small boot image from NewerTech, that can do this ...I can provide it, if it is needed.
Can you make a bootable Toast image with the newertech CD that runs the script automatically or at least an idiot proof version and Upload it ASAP ?

Or method 3, you still want a hybrid 9/X machine (booting to either when you feel like it). In which case, script run from os x plus modded rom placed on os 9 volume created in os x will work very easily too.


@others.. ASR, or if anyone remember editing installer tomes for Mac OS we might be able to really make a updated universal 9.2.2 with 10.2.x mac os rom.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on November 30, 2014, 07:58:57 AM
Can you make a bootable Toast image with the newertech CD that runs the script automatically or at least an idiot proof version and Upload it ASAP ?

Was wondering if someone had one of the disks from one of the may cpu upgrade makers that might be easily modified. ;)
Here it is:

https://www.adrive.com/public/rNAsCf/NewerTech.toast.sit

This is a Toast copy of the original disk.
This CD boot the computer with a text only interface and apply some Open Firmware commands to enable Mac Os 9 boot to 7448 or 7447 CPUs as if they were 7455 , as iMic have shown,
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 30, 2014, 10:33:24 AM
Can you make a bootable Toast image with the newertech CD that runs the script automatically or at least an idiot proof version and Upload it ASAP ?

Was wondering if someone had one of the disks from one of the may cpu upgrade makers that might be easily modified. ;)
Here it is:

https://www.adrive.com/public/rNAsCf/NewerTech.toast.sit

This is a Toast copy of the original disk.
This CD boot the computer with a text only interface and apply some Open Firmware commands to enable Mac Os 9 boot to 7448 or 7447 CPUs as if they were 7455 , as iMic have shown,

Downloading, will see what I can make of it tonight. Note, this will only be good probably for one machine it is built for (FW800 in this case) as it will have PowerMac3,6 in it if I built it. A nice little switcher app (drop down with options for machine IDs) would be the way to go in the future.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on November 30, 2014, 11:40:40 AM
A nice little switcher app (drop down with options for machine IDs) would be the way to go in the future.

there is an app that does this.. but its old.. from around the 8.6 days or earlier
its called "i wish i were" http://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=20126
adds to control panels .. similar kind of idea..
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 30, 2014, 11:16:03 PM
Quote
This CD boot the computer with a text only interface and apply some Open Firmware commands to enable Mac Os 9 boot to 7448 or 7447 CPUs as if they were 7455 , as iMic have shown

Is it possible to Autorun a script (to eliminate errors); can we make a new disk image from this one that types the Open Firmware commands for the user ?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 30, 2014, 11:31:20 PM
A nice little switcher app (drop down with options for machine IDs) would be the way to go in the future.

there is an app that does this.. but its old.. from around the 8.6 days or earlier
its called "i wish i were" http://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=20126
adds to control panels .. similar kind of idea..

Yup, right up there with MACHiDwannabe.. Was thinking more of an app interface to adjust script content for the right machine and then execute script.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on November 30, 2014, 11:33:35 PM
Quote
This CD boot the computer with a text only interface and apply some Open Firmware commands to enable Mac Os 9 boot to 7448 or 7447 CPUs as if they were 7455 , as iMic have shown

Is it possible to Autorun a script (to eliminate errors); can we make a new disk image from this one that types the Open Firmware commands for the user ?

Not being familiar with OS X as I would care to be, can apple scrip scripts be run from the minimal environment we see during early OS X installers (10.3/10.4/10.5)? if so, I could add this to the "Utilities" menu available during OS X Installer on these versions of OS X install discs.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on December 01, 2014, 08:02:20 AM
Quote
This CD boot the computer with a text only interface and apply some Open Firmware commands to enable Mac Os 9 boot to 7448 or 7447 CPUs as if they were 7455 , as iMic have shown

Is it possible to Autorun a script (to eliminate errors); can we make a new disk image from this one that types the Open Firmware commands for the user ?

Not being familiar with OS X as I would care to be, can apple scrip scripts be run from the minimal environment we see during early OS X installers (10.3/10.4/10.5)? if so, I could add this to the "Utilities" menu available during OS X Installer on these versions of OS X install discs.

Well, I Don't know much about it. but this is exactly what this disk image is:
Code: [Select]
<CHRP-BOOT>
<COMPATIBLE>
MacRISC
MacRISC2
MacRISC3
</COMPATIBLE>
<DESCRIPTION>
Generic FCode Loader script
</DESCRIPTION>
<BOOT-SCRIPT>
\ **************************************************************************
\ * PowerLogix Generic FCode Loader
\ * Copyright (c) 2003-04 by PowerLogix.  All rights reserved.
\ * Written by Terry Greeniaus.
\


...
etc
...

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nimbus on December 18, 2014, 01:11:02 PM
Hi,
I'm newly signed-up so I can share my findings. They point either to me being dim, or the need for a bit more detail in the 'Mac OS 9.2.2 Read Me ' on the disk images.

I have burned a CD from Mac OS 9.2.2 Universal Install.iso. I presume it's fine, because it boots my G4 MDD FW400, and Drive Setup autostarts as designed.

I assume this behaviour is intended to happen identically on the G4 MDD FW800, so that the install does not need a second machine? It doesn't - it won't boot from the CD, but reverts to the OSX drive. Starting with Option held down shows only the OSX drive available as a valid boot drive.

Back on my everyday Mac Mini, I mounted the MacOS9Lives.img image, dug out a FireWire external drive, and Finder copied the System Folder from the mounted MacOS9Lives onto the FW drive. On the G4 MDD FW400, I made sure the System Folder was 'blessed'. Back to the G4 MDD FW800 - starting with Option held down does not list the FireWire drive as a valid bootable volume, even though the startup sequence exercised it for a few seconds. Startup Disk does an even more thorough search on the FireWire drive, but doesn't list OS9, nor does it list the CD.

At this point, having typed the above, I scratched my head, then grabbed MacOSROM_1021_Generic.sit and substituted that ROM for the test one on the FW drive. Option-Startup on the G4 MDD FW800 now reveals the FW drive as a valid boot volume! After using OS9's Startup Disk CP, the machine meekly restarts in OS9 without needing the Option key.

Now impressed!

Cheers,
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on December 18, 2014, 03:13:56 PM
Dear Nimbus,

The Universal Install is for all G3s and G4s that SUPPORT Mac OS 9....NOT a universal Install for Unsupported Macs...

I am working on another Image That will contain the Modified iMic ROM, his CD can be used on the FW800 and other NON-Supported G4s... However, even if the OS is recognized on unsupported Macs, the booting will vary from not working at all to a full success to anything in between.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: blemk on December 21, 2014, 10:54:00 PM
Hi,
I'm newly signed-up so I can share my findings. They point either to me being dim, or the need for a bit more detail in the 'Mac OS 9.2.2 Read Me ' on the disk images.

I have burned a CD from Mac OS 9.2.2 Universal Install.iso. I presume it's fine, because it boots my G4 MDD FW400, and Drive Setup autostarts as designed.

I assume this behaviour is intended to happen identically on the G4 MDD FW800, so that the install does not need a second machine? It doesn't - it won't boot from the CD, but reverts to the OSX drive. Starting with Option held down shows only the OSX drive available as a valid boot drive.

Back on my everyday Mac Mini, I mounted the MacOS9Lives.img image, dug out a FireWire external drive, and Finder copied the System Folder from the mounted MacOS9Lives onto the FW drive. On the G4 MDD FW400, I made sure the System Folder was 'blessed'. Back to the G4 MDD FW800 - starting with Option held down does not list the FireWire drive as a valid bootable volume, even though the startup sequence exercised it for a few seconds. Startup Disk does an even more thorough search on the FireWire drive, but doesn't list OS9, nor does it list the CD.

At this point, having typed the above, I scratched my head, then grabbed MacOSROM_1021_Generic.sit and substituted that ROM for the test one on the FW drive. Option-Startup on the G4 MDD FW800 now reveals the FW drive as a valid boot volume! After using OS9's Startup Disk CP, the machine meekly restarts in OS9 without needing the Option key.

Now impressed!

Cheers,

I see no mention of you adding the open firmware commands (for one time boot or a re-occurring open firmware script) to make the FW800 report MACRISC2 support like the FW400.. If you did, it could boot from the very same drive you had in your FW400. Otherwise, modified ROM works as well as noted by others. I just prefer the openfirmware change as there are other app (Disk Utility under Mac OS X) that work differently (in this case, they show Mac OS 9 Driver support) when the open firmware reports MacRISC2 support.

Holidays are coming, hoping to get back to this conversation shortly. As is, Mac play (vs Mac work @ work) has been put on the side for the moment.  ;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on December 22, 2014, 09:32:30 AM
Quote
I am working on another Image That will contain the Modified iMic ROM, his CD can be used on the FW800 and other NON-Supported G4s... However, even if the OS is recognized on unsupported Macs, the booting will vary from not working at all to a full success to anything in between.

Done and ready for download...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2143.0
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Metrophage on December 22, 2014, 10:54:05 AM
I used DieHard's new image a few days ago, and it worked great. As regards concerns about OF recognizing the system as MacRISC2 I had run iMic's Identity Toolkit earlier in the day, this did enable me to format my drive and install OS 9 drivers. Or of course the same script could be typed in OF directly. (I wish I knew a way to make OF text bigger, it's hard for me to read on my 23" monitor). I was going to make a version of DieHard's previous 9.2.2 Universal disc, but with iMic's patched ROM - but that same day he posted this same Unsupported disc, so I didn't need to. The CD loaded and ran without a hitch, and I was able to boot into 9 on my FW800 box with much whooping for joy.

The system is stable, about on par with usual OS 9.2.2 antics. Four days and 20 GB of data later and it's still running well. The only "problem" is that my 9.2.2 partition does not appear in the boot options when I option-start, but this has not caused me any trouble. I have a smaller X partition which I an select if I need to, otherwise it boots into 9.2.2.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on December 22, 2014, 12:02:41 PM
THANK YOU Metrophage,

At least a Confirmed Test of the 9.2.2 Unsupported ISO Image; now I can post it to Mac Garden
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Metrophage on December 22, 2014, 12:44:17 PM
You're welcome - it was easy!

Thank *you*, and iMic, MacTron, and everybody else who has been involved in this years efforts. I didn't know how much had already been done to figure this out. It was a coincidence that I got my FW800 out and was going to try slogging through it myself - only to find that a bootable installer was posted the very same day. Can't beat that!

The FW800 was one of those situations where years ago I was buying what was claimed to be a MDD FW400 from somebody and it turned out to be a FW800. I was disappointed but it was cheap enough that it wasn't worth returning it, which I did consider doing. This installer will probably help many people who similarly have G4s they might want to make full use of.

I am very, very grateful for this! It's like getting a new MDD for Christmas. Much better for the video project I'm working on than my TiBook would have been.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on December 23, 2014, 10:40:57 PM
Thanks iMic :)

iMic did as awesome job testing the 9.2.2 Install ISO for unsupported G4s and you can see actual screen shots of the install on his post here:

https://www.thinkclassic.org/viewtopic.php?id=347
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nimbus on December 24, 2014, 10:24:11 AM
I too can report a mostly working G4 MDD (FW800) booting into OS 9.

I do have a niggle, though - my NEC monitor gets lumbered with 640x480 resolution, neither the Control Strip nor the Monitors Control Panel have any other resolutions available. Grabbing my Apple Cinema Display from my G4 MDD (2003), that has a single resolution too, 1680x1050. The UI announces the correct monitor name, so some information is being picked up by the display card and driver.

Both monitors when hooked to the G4 MDD (FW800) display their full complement of resolutions under OS 10.4.

Both monitors when hooked to the G4 MDD (2003) display their full complement of resolutions under OS 9.

I have a later Monitors Control Panel available, v 8.6.4 / Mac OS CPU Software Z-5.4, but this does not improve matters, apart from its more modern design.

This CP is in my routine System Folder on my G4 MDD (2003). I can boot from this on the G4 MDD (FW800) if I substitute the Generic ROM, but the monitor resolution irritation persists.

The G4 MDD (2003) has an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro Display Card, and the G4 MDD (FW800) has a nVidia GeForce4 MX.

It's possible I've got a borked card in the FW800 I suppose, though it works OK under Tiger. Anyone else found the same?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Metrophage on December 24, 2014, 11:32:57 AM
I find that when the screen resolution is stuck, the problem tends to be the drivers rather than the card or monitor themselves. Which extensions load for your display card?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on December 24, 2014, 02:46:26 PM
both those cards (geforce4mx, radeon9000) are obviously 2 of the most supported stock g4 cards.. something has to be causing that...... they should work just fine..
as they do on the mdd 2003 (i have one aswell) although i run a radeon 8500 in my mdd 2003.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Metrophage on December 24, 2014, 02:54:40 PM
My FW800 has a IIRC Radeon 9200. When I first brought it up after install I was stuck in like 1024 x 768 stretched across the screen. I quickly checked the System Profiler and then the Monitors control panel to see what was going on. But when I started the next time, my monitor options had all appeared anyway.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nimbus on December 24, 2014, 02:55:14 PM
Which extensions load for your display card?
I've forgotten many of the Mac OS classic tricks. How to tell which extensions are in use?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Metrophage on December 24, 2014, 05:06:21 PM
I forget too, because it works a bit differently depending which version of MacOS I have installed.

When the system starts, you will likely see some of them loading by their pictures at the bottom of the screen. But, mainly, I'd recommend going to the Apple menu in the upper-left, clicking on System Profiler to run it. From there, you can refer to the tabs at the top of the profiler screen. "Devices and Volumes" should display what the system recognizes your display card as. And the "Extensions" tab should present a list of all the system extensions in your folder - it says what versions they are, and whether or not they are loaded. If a card is valid and the system won't load its extensions, it might be worth trying to find a more current version of whatever extension you need.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nimbus on December 27, 2014, 08:48:09 AM
Got a bit bored over Christmas.

So, I pulled the MDD(2003) and the bird's nest of cables out from under the desk, and set up the MDD(FW800) in the next room. Next step was to exchange the Graphics Cards between them. Lo! and Behold (as you do at this time of the year), the MDD(2003), now with the nVidia GeForce4 MX, booting natively into OS 9.2.2, can only display a single resolution. This definitely looked like a card issue, rather than a FW800/OS9 issue so I set about Googling. Turns out that the exact same problem was seen back in the day: http://archive.macfixitforums.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/126039 (http://archive.macfixitforums.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/126039). Just one of those things that Apple didn't clean up in OS 9's dying days, I guess, so certainly no fault of the current community effort. In addition to that problem, my nVidia card will only output analogue, not digital, via the DVI port (in either machine). I grabbed the nVidia firmware updater which is still available on Apple's support site, but it claimed mine was up to date, and wouldn't permit a re-flash.

Meanwhile, back on the MDD(FW800). A useful data point would be to boot with the Radeon. No joy - the machine hung during the extensions loading process. I remembered from the distant past a useful tool called Symbionts, which labels each startup icon with its file name, tracked down the newest version (2.8.6) I could, and loaded that. This revealed the freeze occurred during the load of the ATI Graphics Accelerator. Not good. Well, what would happen if the ATI extensions were disabled? Answer - the machine booted, and I had access to the full range of display resolutions, so even with its drivers disabled, the ATI card seems a better bet than the nVidia! For the sake of completeness, I added the ATI extensions back one-by-one to find which combination restored the freeze. I got them all re-enabled, but the machine was still booting happily! I'd suggest that method for anyone who trips over the same problem.

I returned the cards to their rightful homes without any problems. But it looks like I'll be in the market for an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro to replace that nVidia!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on December 27, 2014, 04:24:07 PM
i have a geforce4mx and as far as i know its worked fine for me but that is inside my Quicksilver 933mhz..

what are u doing with an mdd with A GEforce4mx?
they didnt ship with that card.. only the quicksilvers did.

ok according to everymac the 867 mdd did ship with the geforce4mx..
i dont remember having that issue on my dp867 mdd..
it did come with a geforce4mx but i changed it out for a radeon 8500....

i can try to check to see if i have similar results
i dont remember seeing this issue tho

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: miracman on December 28, 2014, 01:26:43 PM

I've forgotten many of the Mac OS classic tricks. How to tell which extensions are in use?


The friendliest way to do this (friendly towards the system), is by using the "extension manager" control panel.  Using it you can also set different sets of extensions for different usages.  Obviously you need to be able to boot though.  Otherwise everything in the System Folder/Extensions loads. 

I have a GeForce4 MX (32 mb) in my MDD 867, and it works like it should.. I have a french version of the 3.5.2 6 extensions (back in the days you could just go to  http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates and wander around) I can zip the 6 for you I guess.

As for extensions go.  There's a great little util that's called ConflictCatcher.  It just takes over Extension Manager and will boot several times with different sets of extensions enabled, simply asking "is problem x still happening"? until you can pinpoint x problem.  It's simple but very useful.  Once the problem has been resolved you can switch back to extension manager, or you can keep it if you want to see tons of labeled extensions when you boot. :)

I have a ATI Radeon 9000 pro on my other tower (that's a gigabit ethernet dual 500) and it's nice and all.  The only problem I can think of with it is the normal apple repair cd doesn't recognize it. 
Regarding extensions for it, in my own experience, the "ATI Rom Xtender" is always causing problems. The pre installed ATI Graphics Accelerator (from 9.2.1. or 9.2.2.) is also problematic with it. If you keep it installed you have to force quit rightaway upon first reboot just to get to the basic settings wizard thing.
Basically I just take those 2 out of the Extensions folder before  first reboot, until you can install the extensions with the cd that came with the graphics card.  I'm not sure if it's the CD or some other install update but I remember I had to manually take out the extensions on my french system because the installer was a bit stupid. 
I have a radeon 9000 update from 2002 and the ati-retail-9-2-2-jan2005.hqx update available if someone needs those, but I'm a total newb here and don't know yet how to handle files. :)
One of these (or the CD) installs a Control Panel called "ATI Displays" which I suggest to temporarly disable (it's not that useful), when you install multiple applications.  The problem I had with the Control Panel is that it would not turn off when installers want to close everything before installing.  Simplest way to deal with that is to manually put it in the "Control Panels (disabled)" folder and reboot before installing multiple apps.  Or you can each time open the control panel and turn it off.
Then you can put it back where it belongs.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: torvan on February 24, 2015, 12:16:09 AM
Total success for my MDD 1.25Ghz Dual FW 800 machine.

I just grabbed the modified 9.2.2 with 10.2.1 (generic) on it, burned the ISO (http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2143), and installed OS 9.2.2 without the trip to Open Firmware. Works beautifully and exactly as my Quicksilver does, only much faster. Screen shot attached.

It does show up in Startup Manager (the Option + Boot) for me. In fact, there is no difference at all between the way the Quicksilver works in any way, other than it is much faster now. I even skipped the Disk Utility and initlized a 237 GB drive into a 180 GB partition and a 57 GB partition and ran the Apple Software Update. I have 73.25 GB now filled of that 180 GB Drive.

Thank you so much everyone for your hard work and your dedication to making this happen in such an easy way.

I know there was some talk a little further back about needing an eMac G4 OSX only machine--I happen to have one I would be happy to test things out on. Let me know--it is just sitting on the shelf right now and is non-critical to me.

Should we get even deeper into this, I have a G5 Dual 1.8Ghz as well.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on February 24, 2015, 02:11:35 AM
congrats torvan...
keep in mind having 2gb of ram might cause some programs to crash in mac os 9
if u ever run into a problem of apps crashing.. try taking out 1gb of ram.. 2gb for mac os 9 is overkill . but of course some people would disagree with me...

the beauty of being an individual is you are able to think your own thoughts + have your own beliefs ;)

dont hold your breath for mac os 9 on the g5..
i will personally fall off my chair if we live to see that happen

holy crap man 12000 views on this thread :o
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: torvan on February 24, 2015, 12:23:08 PM
So far, Photoshop 7.01 is loving the RAM, so is Canvas 8.05 and Illustrator 10.03. Office 2001 is still the same dog it always was, always having to configure itself before loading. Toast 5.2.3 is happy and actually a bit faster, as is StuffIt 7.

Now the games on the other hand--I have no idea. I haven't had time to play the 57 games that are installed yet. I have also left Conflict Catcher and Suitcase still on their discs--have not had the need yet for either, but the 543 fonts sitting on discs I have also not had needed.

But for work, which is the primary use of this machine, it is screaming along.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: TekHunter on March 10, 2015, 08:06:39 PM
All I can say is wow. No problems at all setting up and running on my MDD dual G4 @ 1.25ghz machine. The system is running great. Thanks to everyone who made this happen.

Video of the machine booting up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQcukH03bXQ&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQcukH03bXQ&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on March 11, 2015, 08:17:08 AM
Cool Video... although you talk too much...lol
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: TekHunter on March 11, 2015, 11:15:16 AM
Cool Video... although you talk too much...lol
lol, Gf was sleeping a few feet away :)
I woke to find a few questions in my youtube inbox asking how I did this. That was somewhat unexpected its not like I have a lot of subscribers.
I added the info in the description giving credit where it is due, thanks again you guys rock !
I set up Hermes II bbs and logged into it over telnet from my PC it worked mint and for a minute I thought it was the 80's again and I was on a BBS !
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 14, 2015, 06:00:30 AM
i used spiftire + remoteaccess + roboboard;)
  8)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 14, 2015, 04:24:42 PM

I woke to find a few questions in my youtube inbox asking how I did this. That was somewhat unexpected its not like I have a lot of subscribers.


I linked your video on a MacRumors PowerPC post. I am tired of listening
Quote
PM G4 MDD cannot boot OS9
Some people still think we are in 2013.  ;D  :D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on March 15, 2015, 06:07:54 AM
who said that? "PM G4 MDD cannot boot OS9"?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 15, 2015, 09:25:57 AM
who said that? "PM G4 MDD cannot boot OS9"?
A old school user in MacRumors Ppc forum.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: MacTron on March 15, 2015, 09:34:43 AM
A old school user in MacRumors Ppc forum.

I'm tired of most of those "old school" users that now a day think that a PC with Next Step is a Macintosh ... LOL x 2
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on March 15, 2015, 10:59:36 AM
I'm tired of most of those "old school" users that now a day think that a PC with Next Step is a Macintosh ... LOL x 2

My last session I took my PM G4 DA to an attic to record and a musician told me:
Quote
WOW I never saw an iPhone tower!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 12, 2015, 03:44:56 PM
crazy this thread is at almost 15000 views
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: IIO on April 12, 2015, 05:13:43 PM

Quote
WOW I never saw an iPhone tower!

one should add that this happened in the very very north of andalucia, where people still think that the goat is the biggest animal on earth.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: mrhappy on April 13, 2015, 06:12:44 AM

Quote
one should add that this happened in the very very north of andalucia, where people still think that the goat is the biggest animal on earth.

Haha... That's funny IIO!!! ;D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 20, 2015, 01:59:28 AM
has anyone tested to see if the airport extreme card works in a fw800 g4 mdd running mac os 9?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: chokobo on April 21, 2015, 07:06:40 PM
Hello!

This is my first post to 9Lives. Big thanks for all of the effort you cats have put into the Classic Nine action. I found this site while looking for some vintage gear to in order to bring some life back to my StudioVision machine.

I had intented on getting an MDD G4, however I thought maybe someone figured out how to get the FW800 machines to boot OS9, and sure enough someone had done it.

I'm happy to say that I found a 1.46 FW machine on the local Craig's. Cleaned it up, ran through the listed process here on 9Lives, and I'm now posting with Classilla in OS9 on a FW machine.

There's still lots of work to do to make it a productive computer. It has the Airport card, and I hope to get it working. Currently the card isn't showing up in the AppleTalk control panel. The card is functional under 10.5.8.

Again thanks for all the effort!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 21, 2015, 07:12:19 PM
airport extreme probably wont work under mac os 9..unfortunately..  best to plug in via ethernet on mac os 9 and use that gigabit ethernet port
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: torvan on April 21, 2015, 09:46:58 PM
Airport Extreme does not work in OS 9, at least not that I have been able to get going. It is ethernet or nothing. But that is okay--there are always drawbacks when you try to force newer hardware to do your bidding in an older OS.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 26, 2015, 01:40:27 AM
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=762.msg3962#msg3962
https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/10773/apple-g4-firmware-updater-x/download

just thought i would archive the firmware update referred to by blitter, in a post so that if macupdate changes the url or removes the update it still accessible by those who need

***this firmware is only for MDD's remember!!!

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1175?locale=en_US

this link has the same firmware in different languages.. English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Norsk, Svensk, Finnish,  Dansk, Portugues Brasileiro, Korean, Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese....not sure why u would need a language specific version of the firmware installer?? unless it actually holds some type of alert msgs in the firmware?

Quote
The Power Mac G4 Firmware Update 4.4.8 improves fan control behavior and reduces high speed fan cycling when running in Mac OS 9.

so there u go, u should install this even if u arent trying to downgrade a fw800!!! to quiet your MDD!!!
Title: The Case of the Mistaken Airport
Post by: chokobo on April 27, 2015, 02:04:01 AM
I've been checking into Airports to the Extreme. :P

The OS9 approved MDD's came with 802.11b Airport cards. The 2003 revamp education edition, on which the FW800 9Lives OS9 hack relies also employs the 802.11b card.

The FW800 machines employ the newer Airport Extreme 802.11b/g card, which is physically smaller than the Airport card. Since the firmware from the 2003 never had the Extreme, and since the non-extreme Airport card doesn't fit this isn't likely to work. Wifi could be obtained with a PCI, or USB device, but not the Apple Airport way.

The other thing that this portends as bad news is the 2003 also didn't include FW800, so I expect that to be ineffective under OS9.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 27, 2015, 02:11:26 AM
os9 doesnt support fw800 or usb2.0 no matter what. devices will be available but these will downgrade to usb1.1/fw400

its the same thing with the airport extreme, these are the factors that made them specify some mdds as X only.. they obviously either couldnt or wouldnt make them work under mac os 9.. jobs probably declared it a waste of time if they were running into snags making the drivers for os9...  as far as i know no mac os 9 booting mac ever came with any airport extreme, they are only supported on mac os x.

question is, does macos9 support the pci wireless adapters?

this article http://lowendmac.com/2009/wifi-for-desktop-macs-running-mac-os-9/ discusses using wifi pcmcia adapters meant for laptops in a desktop via a pci card pmcia adapter to convert them into normal pci cards

it links to this fabulous chart (Thanks to some googling + wayback machining - a very nice find indeed + usefull resource)

Quote
Mac OS Wireless Adapter Compatibility List
(Last updated November 30, 2007)
http://web.archive.org/web/20090323083515/http://www.stateofyo.net/metaphyzx/Wireless.htm

this is confusing because it mentions all these g type adapters. im pretty sure they dont work under 9 tho? unless im mistaken? ive only ever seen mac os x show "new device available in pci slot x" but yet in this chart there is a column depicting os support in 9!!!

but i think if u take time to go thru the chart it shoudl become apparent 9 support is only for B devices

we already established tht the best solution was to use a wireless to ethernet bridge (https://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/images2/2008/11/d_link_dwl_g810.jpg) such as this little guy right here the dlink DWL g810

the only solution to have your cake and eat it too, compatible in both X+9 and providing wireless G speed to your mac os 9 desktop.
its perfect because it doesnt take up a valuable pci slot spot aswell.

looks like this article breaks it down for os 9 PCMCIA devices
http://lowendmac.com/2009/wifi-pc-cards-for-powerbooks-running-mac-os-9/

if u highlight all the pci devices in the chart they are alost all for mac os x only..... seems like 9 only likes to support pcmcia devices so if u really want a pci card solution for 9. u need a pcmcia to pci adapter! (if u dont have an airport slot) original airport cards can be bought on ebay for $5 + ship if u have an original airport slot

whats funy is i just looked up the one pci device that suports 9.. and it literally is a pcmcia card on a pci card "cisco Aironet pci"
(http://sishardware.com/imgs/a/a/l/s/f/cisco_aironet_air___pci350_series_2___4ghz_wireless_lan_pci_adapter_card_1_lgw.jpg)
but it can even support 8.6 so maybe its a good buy for a b&w g3 classic user
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: chokobo on April 27, 2015, 02:59:34 AM
Chris I've met some people with the G-Foo, but damn you outclass them to the Extreme.  Great finds.

I was mostly interested in this because you asked about it, and well I have the gear here to test it for you. I have all the machines in the same room (HOT ROOM!!!), and connected via ether net (okay my Lappy is doing teh WiFi). Personally I like having them connected via a physical connection--less likely to get dropped. ;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 27, 2015, 03:22:37 AM
i also have this netgear device next to me now, WN2000RPTv2
check that out.. its a wireless extender.. so it picks up a wireles signal + rebroadcasts it..
but it also provides 4 network ports on the back .. none of which needs to be plugged in via ehternet to provide the source of the connection

http://support.netgear.com/product/wn2000rptv2
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: chokobo on April 27, 2015, 05:00:21 AM
Yeah that's some cool tech.

Chris I finally figured out that you are not some crazy bastard night owl like me. You are in France--now I understand why it seemed like you never slept!  =8<>

Right now I have a bit of free time, and a bit of gear--so let me know if you cats want stuff tested. If I can get to it I'm glad to help. :)

Plus it's amazing how inexpensive gear pops up here in the Bay Area (SF).

Oh and speaking to the conversation about power supplies. I wonder if we could get a schematic for them. They are probably switching, so a little more completed than a basic supply, but probably not that difficult to wrench on. Sure would be a nice do it yourself kind of repair. I had something like this happen to my Gigabit. I didn't have time to do much about it so I yanked one from a G3, and used a power book supply to get the 24volts it needed for the start up key. This was years ago so I don't remember the specifies.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on April 27, 2015, 05:28:20 AM
im not in france lol i live near Toronto, Canada

re: power supplies its not worth the effort when u can score another mdd for next to nothing
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: chokobo on April 27, 2015, 06:16:52 AM
Oh wow you are a crazy bastard night owl!

(http://walnutstlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/night-owl.jpg)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on May 12, 2015, 04:33:26 PM
jakl or imic
how do i do a "ls" in openfirmware + stop it from scrolling endlessly off the page (so i can read it)

so far i did "dev /"
and then "ls"
but it jus scrolls off the page and doesnt stop..
 
in dos u do " |more" but i forget how to do it in OF

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on August 26, 2015, 08:46:47 PM
Created an account here just to pop in and say that I have just solved this problem on my own retail MDD G4 FW800. My G4 now dual-boots between OS X Tiger and Mac OS 9.2.2, and both systems are recognized by the Startup Disk control panel.

Quote
http://www.blitter.com/
Blitter.Com is a privately run, non-commercial domain promoting Art, Music, Technology and the many intersections thereof.

blitter do u have anything to do with this site?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Graveyard on September 06, 2015, 01:56:42 PM
Ok, so i just got my hands on an MDD Dual G4 1,25 GHz. Can you guys point me to a step by step tutorial to get it to boot into OS 9.2.2? I thought it was an older model but i noticed the FW800 port on the back when i opened the box...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: devils_advisor on September 06, 2015, 03:11:01 PM
You came to the right place but first let me tell you how much money i make :)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: mrhappy on September 06, 2015, 04:22:35 PM
Well here's what you need...

http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2143.0
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: roginator on September 07, 2015, 02:03:39 AM
well .. I downloaded file to hack G4 .. I have dual 1.42 G$ machine that is working and it was in storage for some time ..
I wanna switch to os9  cause i own studio and I'm in need for good midi machine for triggering my hardware synths .. so I have 2 options ...

1. ATARI to have like 8 midi outputs

2. G4 OS9.2 hacked ( This one have stealth post) and to run again my 4 UNITORS 8)  - I have 50 synths so I need many midi outputs!

current machine in studio is 2010 Mac pro and logic 10.2  BUT its midi is funny ! jitter with units is all over the place ! ( I never had those problems under logic 6.4.3 on old mac)

so .. problem is that G4 don't want to start boot of old system in file that is here fro download.. it say CLASSIC not supported.. Ill go thru forum today .. but Im asking here so maybe i can get it working sooner ;)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 07, 2015, 06:05:50 AM
welcome ;)

current machine in studio is 2010 Mac pro and logic 10.2  BUT its midi is funny ! jitter with units is all over the place ! ( I never had those problems under logic 6.4.3 on old mac)

so .. problem is that G4 don't want to start boot of old system in file that is here fro download.. it say CLASSIC not supported.. Ill go thru forum today .. but Im asking here so maybe i can get it working sooner ;)
everything u need to know to make this 'hack' work is here in this thread, it seems u have not read it carefully enough. you are welcome to do that, or u can download the cd for "unsupported g4's" from the downoads here im not sure if its in the public downloads folder or the members download folder i think it maybe in the public downloads.. but this was an additional solution to the same problem that was created after the fact of thsi thread.. which was a 2nd solution that also worked with a modified "macos.rom" file by our thinkclassic.org user imic.. i suggest u download that cd and burn it and try to boot it.

good luck!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Philgood on September 07, 2015, 09:15:24 AM
...I have 50 synths so I need many midi outputs!...

Wow, are you the guy into italo disco ?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 07, 2015, 12:33:45 PM
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2143.0

this is the cd image u want to download if u are unwilling to do the permanent fix of downgrading the firmware, that is illustrated + discussed in this specific thread

Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: mrhappy on September 07, 2015, 05:28:27 PM
I have 50 synths so I need many midi outputs!


50 synths.... Holy cow!!!😁
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 08, 2015, 10:54:00 AM
I have 50 synths so I need many midi outputs!


50 synths.... Holy cow!!!😁
yes yes so what.. are u guys going to attack this poor guy now too??? give it a rest
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: mrhappy on September 08, 2015, 01:18:56 PM
No attacking at all!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

... It just seemed like a LOT of synths! After I thought about it for a minute though I figured I probably have 10ish or so and I don't even really play keys!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

... Then I thought... Heck, I probably have 30-40 guitars so It didn't seem that excessive at all... in fact now I think roginator should buy MORE synths!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 08, 2015, 01:33:11 PM
mr happy is on the sauce again ???
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: mrhappy on September 08, 2015, 02:25:19 PM
mr happy is on the sauce again ???

Yes... Only HOT sauce this time!!😁
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nymunariya on September 16, 2015, 11:40:13 PM
I tried the firmware flashing on my dual 1.25Ghz MDD FW800 (currently has 4.6.??), and apparently it loads correctly, but after I push go, I get the following text for a fraction of a second, followed by the OS X grey prohibitory sign. I even tried the holding down the power button until a long tone comes out and then entered open firmware:

Code: [Select]
loading XCOFF

tsize=23000 dsize=2000 bsize=9c000 entry=1c12100
SECTIONS:
.text    01c00000 01c00000 00023000 000000d4
.data    01c23000 01c23000 00002000 000230d4
.bss     01c25000 01c25000 0009c000 00000000
loading .text, done..
loading .data, done..
clearing .bss, done..
_

Even with the special macos9lives cd for non-supported G4s, I see the grey screen, get a cursor, followed by the OS9 grey floppy with a flashing question mark and the cd drive comes out. 

I even reformatted the primary hardddrive with a 10.2.7 cd that allowed me to install OS 9 drivers, partitioned it to be 64GB and 160GB, and copied the system folder from the cd to the 64GB harddrive, and even blessed it using the command line in OS X, but then I got the same result from the cd. (I even copied the OS9 install from the os9general.dmg from the 10.2.7 cd and replaced the ROM with the one from the macos9lives cd), but same flashing floppy result.

I don't know if it's related, but I am unable to boot into Firewire Disk Mode on that machine.  I've tried unplugging the second (slave) harddrive, moved the jumper on the main (master) from master to cable select and back, disconnected the DVD drive, disconnected all harddrives, but no matter what, the computer just shuts down after a few moments. Even with the keyboard plugged directly into the USB ports (not over a hub).  I've tried pram resets, taking out the battery on the motherboard.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 17, 2015, 01:24:16 AM
im not sure how to help as ive never seen this result.. but
using a 10.1 or 10.2 cd to do the formatting + partitioning -- i wouldnt reccommend that you use those..
better to use panther or tiger versions of osx... only because they are more commonplace.

do u have any pci cards installed that could be altering the boot up operation such as a hard drive controller of some sort?
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nymunariya on September 17, 2015, 03:02:45 AM
im not sure how to help as ive never seen this result.. but
using a 10.1 or 10.2 cd to do the formatting + partitioning -- i wouldnt reccommend that you use those..
better to use panther or tiger versions of osx... only because they are more commonplace.

yeah, I imagine the 10.2 tools aren't the greatest. It was my only option since I can't get target disk mode to work and I only have the following cds: 10.2.0 (won't boot), 10.2.4 Server (won't boot), 10.2.7 (will boot), 10.4 (will boot, but won't give me the option for installing OS 9 drivers). Taking it out and putting it in another computer might not be an option (I'll have to see how to remove it, but I don't have another computer to put it in, without buying exact converters or a firewire hub)

do u have any pci cards installed that could be altering the boot up operation such as a hard drive controller of some sort?

The only (removable) components that are installed are:

I don't know if it's relevant, but there's a red led that lights up on the board between the ram and pci slot.  I can't install Adobe CS without taking out the last stick of ram--I found reference to some bug that the CS installers won't work with 2GB of ram. Otherwise I haven't had any problems with the ram.  I also don't have any other mac compatable graphics cards laying around, so I do have a fairly new Radeon (not sure exactly which) that I bought for a Linux AMD machine that I'm not using.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nymunariya on September 17, 2015, 11:44:22 AM
IT'S HAPPENING!!!!! \(^_^)/

sooo after moseying around in Mac Os 9 boot on unsupported iMac G4 (Flat-panel):

... he thought it was a sawtooth but it was a 4pci slot gigabit ethernet model.. ccmac was talking about reverting the firmware but it turned out this was not neccessary all tht was neccessary to boot 8.6 on the sawtooth was having the original cd which contained the 2.5.1 rom - but the comments he said about saving out a copy of the firmware are whats relevant to this thread and also his comments about this guy, pareis + his openfirmware abilities.. he wrote a script to flash firmware of a mac directly from mac os x called "fwupdater" http://pareis.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/running-firmware-updaters-from-mac-os-x/ AHA! ...

so I tried the fwupdater app. Downloaded it. Modified the script so it would pull up the 4.4 MDD firmware. Sudo'd it in Leopard.  Next thing I knew my G4 was shutting down and that was it.   I don't have a programmer button, but it was mentioned here to hold down the power button until the G4 starts freaking out.  Next thing I knew there was an OS9 style progress bar, and then cd drive popped out, and then it went back in.  And then I had to pick my jaw off the ground.  OS 9 is showing up as a startup option and now I'm chilling in OS 9.  AWW YIS.

Thanks superNova777!
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: supernova777 on September 17, 2015, 12:32:53 PM
awesome news  -afro-
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Nymunariya on September 17, 2015, 12:39:01 PM
somebody at Apple is wondering who the hell is registering OS 9???  ;D
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on September 17, 2015, 06:15:19 PM
somebody at Apple is wondering who the hell is registering OS 9???  ;D

We should get all the members to register Mac OS 9 on the same day, then call tech support and ask when 9.2.3 is being released
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: lokki on October 23, 2016, 03:05:02 PM
sorry to revive this thread, but has anyone tried an aluminium powerbook 12 inch 1.5 ghz? would that also work? or other aluminium powerbooks with 1.5 ghz or higher cpu speed...
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: Veneteaou on November 13, 2016, 12:59:08 AM
Depends on the model lokki. Some of them have hardware-specific issues that a couple of ThinkClassic guys are slowly working through. One of the biggest issues is that mobile video card drivers were never written to run in os9 for late-G4 laptops.

Video is the issue for the 12" 1.5GHz. It's running a 64 MB GeForce FX Go5200 for a video card, which was never used in an OS9-compatible laptop. So unless someone can patchwork together video extensions from bits and pieces of OSX drivers, it would have to run video off of the CPU and it would be essentially worthless.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: velvetcave on July 17, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
Thanks so much for this, it works and made my day.
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: macStuff on November 22, 2017, 11:20:18 PM
sorry to revive this thread, but has anyone tried an aluminium powerbook 12 inch 1.5 ghz? would that also work? or other aluminium powerbooks with 1.5 ghz or higher cpu speed...

 8)
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 24, 2017, 11:22:15 AM
Kinda has a lot going against it, beside the Bluetooth 2.0, AirPort Extreme and USB 2 being a total no-go, I doubt the "GeForce FX Go5200" would emulate the "NVIDIA GeForce4 440" and load the driver for acceleration, but please give it a try.

Also, as we have discussed the PowerPC 7447A processor is possible under OS9, but needs OF modifications, so you may need a few OF commands before you can even try our "Unsupported OS 9 Install"

I am guessing overall, it will have many "deal breaker" items, like No USB, No WiFI, No Ethernet, and Low res graphics :(
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: macStuff on November 24, 2017, 11:41:32 AM
my mistake i thought i was referring to the same model of laptop that u posted about buying 3 of on another thread
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: trevor12 on November 29, 2017, 10:20:25 AM
the link

https://www.adrive.com/public/Fgb3Ge/MacOs922custer.img.sit

is dead, pls reupload
Title: Re: Downgrade firmware of FW800 for OS9 comp.
Post by: DieHard on November 29, 2017, 01:30:14 PM
Here is a new "active" Link

https://www.adrive.com/public/tX2yv9/Mac%20Os%20ROM%209.8.1%20(Cluster)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: afewmacs on April 21, 2018, 11:37:44 PM
thank you all who made this possible,

my machine is now up and running with OS9 and OSX 10.5.8.

re: installing the OS9 drivers, mission impossible from the FW 800 itself, not as I read here OS dependent but machine dependent.

I used target mode from one that could, a MDD dual 867, anybody else doing this should add carbon lib to the extensions folder,

a requirement for the Logic 6.4 installer, which in my case  - was what this was all about.

note the file Logic_v6.sea.bin downloaded from here appears to be corrupted.

Boots into 0S9 with option key on start up, not available in OSX 10.5.8 system preferences Start Disc.

video ATI Radeon 9000 Pro - DVI output res is not quite right (1440 x 900 60 Hz is the best option)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 22, 2018, 09:52:45 AM
re: installing the OS9 drivers, mission impossible from the FW 800 itself, not as I read here OS dependent but machine dependent.

yep it is the machine that prevents that OS9 or OSX can write the OS9 driver to the HD in a regular fashion.

but those who do not want to use the ASR method from this forum can also just turn over the HDs to another computer, which allows to write the drivers, then move them back again. (well, it is work, but compared to a mini it is doable for more people...)

otoh, yesterday i was thinking one should also make a little disk image for mirroring the driver to an empty disk. just as the MacOS9Lives fw 800 CD, but without the operating system installer.

Quote
video ATI Radeon 9000 Pro - DVI output res is not quite right (1440 x 900 60 Hz is the best option)

it should work. did it under OSX?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: afewmacs on April 22, 2018, 03:45:41 PM

Quote
video ATI Radeon 9000 Pro - DVI output res is not quite right (1440 x 900 60 Hz is the best option)

it should work. did it under OSX?
[/quote]

yes , in OSX perfect there are different res options available.

wow !! re: above, remove the drive from a Mac mini to install the OS9 drivers is more work than the machine is worth.

this morning added the ADAT edit card from the PPC 7600 to the MDD FW800 leaving the Korg 1212 in place solo, 8 channel lightpipe in all machines now  - not in the mini that stays at OSX 10.4.11 and at the moment completely redundant. Waiting for a new purpose in life,
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 23, 2018, 02:25:10 AM

Quote
video ATI Radeon 9000 Pro - DVI output res is not quite right (1440 x 900 60 Hz is the best option)

it should work. did it under OSX?

yes , in OSX perfect there are different res options available.

wow !! re: above, remove the drive from a Mac mini to install the OS9 drivers is more work than the machine is worth.

this morning added the ADAT edit card from the PPC 7600 to the MDD FW800 leaving the Korg 1212 in place solo, 8 channel lightpipe in all machines now  - not in the mini that stays at OSX 10.4.11 and at the moment completely redundant. Waiting for a new purpose in life,
[/quote]

You can write the OS 9 drivers to a disk when formating from the Terminal in OS X, even when booted from the Install DVD on a Mac that doesn't support OS 9.

Code: [Select]
diskutil  partitionDisk  /dev/disk1 1 OS9Drivers  HFS+  MacHD 0b
Be careful with /dev/disk1, you'll want to run:

diskutil list

To see a list of disks installed in the system and adjust the command to partition the disk you want. The 0b will use the entire disk, there should be a way to adjust the command to create more that one partition.

If you want a partition for OS 9, and one for OS X, it would be something like:

Code: [Select]
diskutil partitionDisk /dev/disk1 2 OS9Drivers HFS+ MacHD 4000M JHFS+ OSXHD R
This would create 2 partitions, one name MacHD formated HFS+ that is 4000 Megabytes, and one names OSXHD formated JHFS+ that would use the remainder of the disk.

Just adjust the size in megabytes you want for you OS 9 partition, and insure you are partitioning the correct disk( /dev/diskx ).

 

Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: afewmacs on April 23, 2018, 03:21:23 AM


You can write the OS 9 drivers to a disk when formating from the Terminal in OS X, even when booted from the Install DVD on a Mac that doesn't support OS 9.

Code: [Select]
diskutil  partitionDisk  /dev/disk1 1 OS9Drivers  HFS+  MacHD 0b
Be careful with /dev/disk1, you'll want to run:

diskutil list

To see a list of disks installed in the system and adjust the command to partition the disk you want. The 0b will use the entire disk, there should be a way to adjust the command to create more that one partition.

If you want a partition for OS 9, and one for OS X, it would be something like:

Code: [Select]
diskutil partitionDisk /dev/disk1 2 OS9Drivers HFS+ MacHD 4000M JHFS+ OSXHD R
This would create 2 partitions, one name MacHD formated HFS+ that is 4000 Megabytes, and one names OSXHD formated JHFS+ that would use the remainder of the disk.

Just adjust the size in megabytes you want for you OS 9 partition, and insure you are partitioning the correct disk( /dev/diskx ).
[/quote]

thank you,

wow you guys are good.

I will now correct the "mission impossible" statement from above, to "possible if you know how".

Good to know if I have to do it again ;)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 23, 2018, 04:53:20 PM
i wasnt aware that you can launch the terminal app from the install discs.

seems a good alterenative to keep in mind.

yet a bit dangerous for those who expect a warning/confirmation dialog before erasing a HD :)
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: afewmacs on April 23, 2018, 10:06:15 PM
now we have it, OSX install discs are required to use Terminal, so while you are it, on for example the mac mini solution (which is a real pain to get the drive out and do it elsewhere).

upgrade the existing OS to 10.5, Time machine the contents of the drive to a safe place, and then zap it as above with Terminal to install the OS9 driver

ditto for FW800, and all other none Native OS9 G4 machines.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 24, 2018, 04:31:56 AM
now we have it, OSX install discs are required to use Terminal, so while you are it, on for example the mac mini solution (which is a real pain to get the drive out and do it elsewhere).

upgrade the existing OS to 10.5, Time machine the contents of the drive to a safe place, and then zap it as above with Terminal to install the OS9 driver

ditto for FW800, and all other none Native OS9 G4 machines.

You can always use Firewire Target Disk Mode if you have another Mac with FW.

You know hold "T" at startup.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 24, 2018, 08:04:47 AM
Quote
You can always use Firewire Target Disk Mode if you have another Mac with FW.

You know hold "T" at startup.

Yes, that has always been my preferred method as seen here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,3912.0.html
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 24, 2018, 08:07:31 PM
you can only boot from firewire if there is a another computer within your reach.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 25, 2018, 12:19:10 PM
you can only boot from firewire if there is a another computer within your reach.
Are you implying that we have accepted a member that owns ONLY 1 Mac ?!

This upsets me greatly...hehe
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 25, 2018, 02:32:09 PM
you can only boot from firewire if there is a another computer within your reach.
Are you implying that we have accepted a member that owns ONLY 1 Mac ?!

This upsets me greatly...hehe

I don't think I can run a FW cable that far, seem to recall there being a limit to the length of a 1394 cable.

Tho I think I could setup an ad-hoc wireless network for quite some ways. :P
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 26, 2018, 06:37:10 AM
Are you implying that we have accepted a member that owns ONLY 1 Mac ?!

This upsets me greatly...hehe

no, i was more thinking about the members which have so many macs in their factory hall that afirewire cable might not be long enough.

joke aside, plugging cables can be a real pain depending on the situation. thee more minis you have, the more you will feel the need to build a custom case, and even in my living room there is so much gear on my tables that all my cables are led behind it.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 26, 2018, 08:48:50 AM
Quote
joke aside, plugging cables can be a real pain depending on the situation. thee more minis you have, the more you will feel the need to build a custom case, and even in my living room there is so much gear on my tables that all my cables are led behind it.
Yeah, every room, garage, work, home... there is no escape from the plethora of "stuff" we have accumulated. Old macs never die, they just wait on shelves, to be loved once more.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: darthnVader on April 26, 2018, 06:52:54 PM
Are you implying that we have accepted a member that owns ONLY 1 Mac ?!

This upsets me greatly...hehe

no, i was more thinking about the members which have so many macs in their factory hall that afirewire cable might not be long enough.

joke aside, plugging cables can be a real pain depending on the situation. thee more minis you have, the more you will feel the need to build a custom case, and even in my living room there is so much gear on my tables that all my cables are led behind it.

My den looks like the storage room at a computer repair store. Tho I don't take tech in my bedroom, not ever a phone or a clock, just a some detector and a light.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on April 30, 2018, 04:33:42 PM
i wonder what kind of "detector" you have in your bedroom but maybe it is not my business.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on April 30, 2018, 06:33:24 PM
Just guessing "some detector" = "smoke detector"
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on May 01, 2018, 11:21:07 AM
iWarn
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Trace-Elliot on January 21, 2019, 12:05:50 PM
Fantastic ! What a great masterpice!
For my ( Basic User Level ) it was easy to install os 9.2.2 on my 10 years unused G4 fw800.
Now the G4 is booting native os 9.2.2

One question , is it possible to Clone a Mac Boot Volume ( normal G4 Not fw 800) with the ASR Software on the CD Rom ?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on January 22, 2019, 07:49:00 AM
One question , is it possible to Clone a Mac Boot Volume ( normal G4 Not fw 800) with the ASR Software on the CD Rom ?

Yes... Of course
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Greystash on May 26, 2019, 12:07:01 AM
I finally got my hands on a MDD FW800 1.4Ghz which came with lots of goodies (Media 100 cards + adapter etc.), and boy are the fans noisy!! I installed OS 9.2.2 easily with the ISO available on this site but have run into a few problems. OSX wouldn't sleep because of a USB card (even though it has a NEC chipset), so I removed this since I can't find any USB drivers and it's an unbranded card. The card still works on both systems but it was too annoying keeping it in and having the computer lock up after each wake.

OS9 still crashes every time it wakes from sleep and I can't figure out what's causing it. I've removed every card and only have the OS9 HDD and CD drive attached. I've tried sleeping with all extensions on and off but still get the same results. The machine goes to sleep but is unresponsive to the keyboard and mouse, and will only power up if I press the power button. When it wakes there is no display (black screen) and nothing happens. I've tried three different Video cards (tested in my quicksilver) and got the same results.

Has this happened to anyone else? Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: DieHard on May 27, 2019, 12:19:12 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record... but the absolute 1st step (with a new G4) is to run the Apple diagnostics or tech tool diagnostics or both

AHT (Apple Hardware Test) FOUND HERE:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/board,33.0.html

Also, as discussed, if possible, BEFORE the diags...

1. Blow out all dust (No Vacuum, it will generate static, insert a small wire in fans while using a compressor, this prevents high speed rotation) 
2. Test MB Battery (anything below 3.4V, change it)
3. Clean all RAM contacts with automotive electric contact cleaner and paper towel, blow off paper bits
4. inspect Board (look for corrosion, battery leakage, water damage)
5. Remove all extra cards
6. inspect USB and other ports for damage
7. Arctic Silver CPU board if technically proficient
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Greystash on May 30, 2019, 02:25:05 AM
Thanks for your reply DieHard.

- I've burned three copies of AHT but it's not recognised on boot. I did these both with OSX 10.4 Disk Utility and on Toast 5 under OS9. It still wont boot from the CD even after unplugging all other devices, changing the CD drive to master etc. It's also greyed out in Startup Disk. The Mac OS 9 CD boots every time so I don't think there's an issue with the drive.
- I've cleaned the machine + components as much as possible.
- MB battery is at 2.3V, I often take these out of my older machines since they're always connected to power anyway. How much can this effect things? Unfortunately it's not easy to get another one of these in NZ, I will need to order one online.
- The board is in perfect condition, no damage and no dust.
- I've removed every card other than the video card (I've tried 3 different ones), and have also removed all extra components + cables
- Ports appear to be in good condition
- I don't think this is a thermal issue since it happens when the machine is still cold from a fresh boot

Sleeping works fine in OSX which is why I don't think it's an issue with the machine. It only fails to wake under OS9 and there is no keyboard, mouse, or video response. Just the fans and disk drives spinning up. I've been testing with a fresh install from the image on this site, have tried disabling video drivers, installing newer ATI drivers etc. Have also tried several HDs.

I've reset nvram, pmu, pram which has made no difference. Do you think downgrading the firmware as mentioned earlier in this thread could help?

Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on May 30, 2019, 05:23:08 AM
can we get moer info on the video cards u have used
are they real mac oem or retail cards; or pc flashed cards etc?
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Greystash on May 30, 2019, 02:51:15 PM
Have mostly been testing on the stock Radeon 9000 Pro AGP (64MB) that came with the machine, and have also tried an ATI Rage 128 PCI (Mac), Radeon 7000 Sapphire  PCI(PC flashed), and a NVIDIA GeForce2 MX PCI (Mac). Same results with each one, and when changing driver configurations.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: macStuff on May 30, 2019, 04:46:37 PM
hmm i never knew the geforce 2 came in PCI?
  ;D
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce2-mx-pci.c791
geforce 2 was an amazing card at the time it was released i remember being very happy with it

just keep removing extensions till u find whats causing it i guess?
have u done the whole zap the p-ram thing?

what u could try is removing the battery + unplugging the unit + leaving it over night like that
and then try putting the battery back; it may be holding on to old info in the open firmware somehow?

moderator should really split this topic to a seperate thread for greystash's issue;
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Greystash on May 30, 2019, 05:17:28 PM
It sure is!

I've tried disabling all extensions except video drivers and there's no difference. Disabling all extensions disables sleep completely because of missing drivers (video).
I've reset PMU, PRAM, NVRAM and am still getting the same results - unresponsive to keyboard + mouse and crash on wake after waking with the power button. Also, after waking it appears that the keyboard and mouse aren't even getting power supplied to them. I'll try out the battery thing this weekend. I'm wondering if this is one of the very last MDD variants which have slightly different hardware and isn't playing nice with OS9??

Yeah sorry this should have gone into troubleshooting... I thought it might have been a quick fix that could have happened to others but it now seems to be a very strange case.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Greystash on June 04, 2019, 06:26:33 PM
I've hit a dead end with this after days of trying to figure it out.. For future reference this appears to be video related (will post in hardware section if I ever find out what's actually going on). I got the system to a point where if ALL video related extensions (including Quicktime QuickDraw etc.) were disabled the computer would sleep the display, turn HDs off etc. but the fans would still run. It's became responsive to mouse and keyboard input to wake. Upon waking it would show the "Computer couldn't go to sleep because of missing software etc.". Very close..

When enabling a minimal video extension setup e.g. only the 'ATI Driver', or 'NVIDIA Driver' the sleep crashing happens again (only responsive to the power button for waking, and a black screen on wake).

I think it's something to do with the Mac OS ROM/Firmware version (I think it's 4.6.x?) or a combination since it works fine in OSX, and because of the amount of different cards I've tested. I tried downgrading the firmware using the method in this thread but it wouldn't work, each time I got a message saying the firmware file couldn't be found, and believe me, I tried every combination of ways/setups to try get this working! :o
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: sirenamusic on June 21, 2019, 09:08:26 PM
I don't know if it's my computer, but when I try to uncompress and burn a cd image of os 9.2.2 and they all seem to be corrupted.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: IIO on July 27, 2019, 04:56:35 PM
it is usually the user and not the machine :)

describe in detail what you do and what happens to get a more useful answer.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: velvetcave on August 16, 2019, 10:53:48 AM
So I used this to convert an FW800 G4 to work with os9. I need this as a backup system for my remote session music stuff. It works very well with protools 5.1.3 and all the cards and peripherals are working fine. Very happy:). Just something a bit odd, I used two of my external firewire drives ( a glyph GT050 and a Lacie rugged) to transfer session data onto the new machine to check it out. No problem with that but on returning to my original FW400 G4 both drives are running very slow for transferring files, both onto and off, usually in the first 30 seconds, then the speed picks up but still nowhere near as fast as they used to be. I will be formatting the drives again and am confident that will fix but just seems a bit strange. Also, there's something weird going on with USB, it (the fw800 machine) doesn't seem to like more than two devices (in my case a hub for keyboard and mouse and a midi transmitter) being operational at the same time.
I have yet to get round to testing the system thoroughly, there was too much other stuff to do, and at the end of the day it works.
Apart from those things this is a wonderful thing. Thank you!
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Angelgreat on December 17, 2021, 02:01:35 PM
I'm late in announcing this, but Action Retro featured the fw800iso for his video on the FW800 MDD. Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZVI9vum6f4

To be honest, he says it works like a regular FW400 MDD with OS9, except with the 400 ports not working and the 800 ports working but seen as a 400 ports.
Title: Re: Mac Os 9 booting on: G4 Tower MDD FW800 (Detailed Posts)
Post by: Metrophage on September 21, 2022, 10:41:38 PM
I eventually wasn't able to use my FW800 anymore, so tonight I am going over it to understand why it won't boot.

What I think happened is that after I applied an Open Firmware patch, it won't boot without it. Except that the PSU can be flaky so sometimes I need to leave the system unplugged, and then it loses its patch. Since the patches are no longer necessary with hacked ROMs, I should probably figure out a reverse patch to make it stock again. It was years ago, I don't remember what I did!

Either that it's my typical luck of MDDs having RAM flakiness.