PSA: M-Audio Firewire 410 Firmware Downgrade Success! Now Working in Mac OS 9

[visibleprism]

Long story short: I was able to get an old version of the M-Audio Firewire 410 firmware loaded using a laptop with Windows XP and the fw410_10013_cd.exe installer, which has gotten it working in OS 9!   

Long story long: I picked up an M-Audio Firewire 410 locally last week for use with a Pismo in OS 9. As expected, I'd been running into the same issues with using it in OS 9 that have been discussed here many times, including the mix interface showing crazy output levels, no firmware info displaying, no sound output whatsoever, etc.

I tried to connect the interface to newer machines and found it to be functional (again like many others here). In this case the M-Audio software showed a 2007 firmware version. The Pismo also has OS X installed, so I tried an older version of the driver/software to see if it would make a difference. I was able to get it running in OS X 10.4, but still wasn’t able to get it to work in OS 9.

Then I remembered that I had an old laptop running Windows XP in storage which has the 4 pin iLink-style Firewire connector, so I decided to give it a shot. I installed the fw410_10013_cd.exe driver found on the M-Audio 120803 driver software CD, got it running, and noticed that this time around the M-Audio software showed a 2003 firmware version (!). (Also want to mention that I was using the external PSU since it can’t be ran with bus power using the 4 pin connector).

Back on the Pismo (in OS 9), I used the same disc and installed the Firewire 410 v1.0.1 build3 driver. After a quick shut down/connecting the 410/reboot, I’m happy to report that the interface is now functioning! I’ve tried the ASIO driver with a variety of different audio programs, connected external devices to the audio inputs, and tested MIDI in/out – all work great! Both headphone outs are functional as well.

I thought this would be useful for some of you who’ve been trying to get the 410 or other M-Audio interfaces of the same era working in OS 9. Not sure yet if the PC needs to be an older (32 bit and/or Windows XP) model, but will test it with a newer Windows machine to find out.

[aBc]

Well. After all this time... this is AMAZING!

Okay, where to find: the fw410_10013_cd.exe installer

M-Audio 120803 driver software CD ?

etc. etc. etc.

[visibleprism]

Agreed!! After seeing all of the previous threads here, I can hardly believe that it’s actually working!

The M-Audio 120803 disc image is available here: http://www.macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=4438.0. I burned it using Toast Titanium on macOS. One thing to note is that this is a hybrid disc, so when you insert it into the Mac you’ll see the Mac drivers and on Windows you’ll see the Windows versions.

When the disc is inserted on a Mac, the driver is located in /Firewire Series/Mac OS 9.2.2/Firewire 410/, and is called Firewire 410 v1.0.1 build3 (which is an executable), and on Windows it’s located in /Firewire 410/ and is called fw410_10013_cd.exe. Hope that helps!

Edit: also want to mention that the web version of the Windows driver (which I *think* is the same, but could be wrong -- will test later) is available at Archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20040114220739/http://www.m-audio.com:80/images/global/drivers/fw410_10013_web.exe in case you don't have a CD burner handy

[teroyk]

Long story short: I was able to get an old version of the M-Audio Firewire 410 firmware loaded using a laptop with Windows XP and the fw410_10013_cd.exe installer, which has gotten it working in OS 9!   

So it was as I think..there is driver that write firmware to back to more original. Thanks for testing!

[teroyk]

I thought this would be useful for some of you who’ve been trying to get the 410 or other M-Audio interfaces of the same era working in OS 9. Not sure yet if the PC needs to be an older (32 bit and/or Windows XP) model, but will test it with a newer Windows machine to find out.

As far I know Win7 32-bit driver upgrade firmware to not OS9 compatible (my Firewire 410, is bought from Win7 user).

[ssp3]

It would be nice if someone else could verify this. DieHard?

If the Mac OS9 version of firmware files also contain some sort of a 'hidden updater', maybe one can manipulate it and force it to update the firmware no matter what?

[DieHard]

It would be nice if someone else could verify this. DieHard?

OK, my quick test was with a Syba 2 port FW400 card, the 410, and windows 7 Pro (64-Bit), driver install went successfully (used the file mentioned above), but driver did not load on reboot (yellow in device manager).

I will prep an XP machine and try this again and report back... may take a few days, hopefully not a few months

If the Mac OS9 version of firmware files also contain some sort of a 'hidden updater', maybe one can manipulate it and force it to update the firmware no matter what?

A method to burn the firmware at will (in OS 9) has never been found AFAIK

[DieHard]

OK, total heart break...

These are the steps I did to make it NOT work... so hopefully you won't follow a fool

1. Pulled a working HP tower with XP Pro SP3 and a DVD ROM
2. Installed SYBA SD-FW323-3I PCI Firewire card
3. Booted PC and check device manager, FW ports good to go, drivers auto-loaded
4. Put in the M-Audio CD with the FW410 NOT connected, readme specifically states NOT to have it connected during software install, ran the file fw410_10013_cd.exe, installed without issue, then it prompted for a reboot, I shut down PC
5. Now I connected the 410 and turned on PC (still used an external AC adapter), then interestingly, it autoloaded one driver and then accessed the CD and auto loaded another with "Bootloading ROM" (or a similar message, happened fast), then it autoloaded a 3rd drive
6. All loaded great, in XP device manager it showed the 410 under "Audio" and it had under the driver info:
Driver Date: 09/30/2003
Driver Version: 5.10.0.5008
7. At this point I saw no way to get firmware version in XP as no 410 control panel is installed, just an "un-install" option under the FW410
DONE WITH PC
8. Booted QS G4 (FW410 NOT connected) and ran: Firewire 410 v1.0.1 build3
9. Prompted for reboot, connceted FW410 and reboot
10. Opened FW410 app, Same weird shit
bootloader: // (4-dot matrix symbol)
Firmware: // (4-dot matrix symbol)

No go, failed

[DieHard]

OK... as a small update:

The Windows version apparently installs a silent file in C:\Windows\System32\fw410cpl

After running this file (looks similar to OS 9 FW410 panel) under the "Hardware" TAB, my interface reads:
Version: 2007/05/04 10:26:56
Model: 2   Version: 1

[ssp3]

Question. Did you leave the CD inside the drive during reboot on your Win machine? If so, why?

[visibleprism]

Ah bummer, sorry to hear that! I'm going to go through the process from scratch and record the steps in more detail, especially what I'm seeing when installing on the XP machine. In the meantime, let me know if there's any other info I can provide that might be useful!

@ssp3 - not sure if this was directed at me, but I removed the CD from the drive before rebooting the Windows machine

[aBc]

I'm going to go through the process from scratch and record the steps in more detail...

Great! After our last dismal FW410 collective effort here - no hurry for another possible rabbit hole.
I detest Windows… but there’s an old HP and a pristine NOS copy of XP Pro to be installed here.

And Thursday might just be the rainy day for all THAT.

Thanks!

[ssp3]

@ssp3 - not sure if this was directed at me, but I removed the CD from the drive before rebooting the Windows machine

The question was to DieHard. I found it strange unexpected, that the CD was accessed by _?_ when rebooting.

[aBc]

And then there's this that I seem to vaguely remember from last time:

PC Laptop and desktop users with the I-Link 4-pin 1394 interface
need to use the 12 VDC power adaptor provided in order to power
an M-Audio FireWire interface for operation on their computers.

If you are connecting your M-Audio FireWire device to a 6-pin connector
on your computer, the unit will be powered through the FireWire cable -
do NOT use the provided power supply when using a 6-pin connection!

The old HP desktop here only has the 6-pin FireWire connections.
Ordinarily I wouldn't think that also using the VDC adapter would matter.
(But now I might test it first with a Windows Vista PC.)

[DieHard]

Question. Did you leave the CD inside the drive during reboot on your Win machine? If so, why?

Yeah forgot to take it out and then it grabbed stuff off of it after reboot (additional drivers and probably the control panel) it seems to discover and load additional items after the initial install upon connection and re-start.

f you are connecting your M-Audio FireWire device to a 6-pin connector
on your computer, the unit will be powered through the FireWire cable -
do NOT use the provided power supply when using a 6-pin connection!

Well, I doubt this came from M-Audio... the "Do NOT" makes no sense... should read "optionally use the Provided power" It is ALWAYS better, IMO to use an external power supply, AC adapters for FW devices (if you have one), yes bus power works fine, but will draw power from the card/MB directly which should be avoided when and if possible (especially if daisy chaining).

At any rate, it will NEVER hurt the situation to use power supplies for devices.  After seeing many cards die and logic boards die from customers over the years, as a general rule I try to use extra power for devices whenever possible.  I have seen many USB power rails blow on newer macbooks from people who literally use their $1800 macbook as a phone charger instead of buying a $4 Wallmart ac adapter.

I made an exception about a year ago, with (4) PCIe cards for my tech servers:
https://www.amazon.com/FebSmart-Ports-PCIE-Self-Powered-Technology-No-FS-HA-Pro/dp/B089ZXXVHY/ref=sr_1_4?crid=32T6SVJIZNIHO&keywords=amazon%2BUSB3%2Bpcie&qid=1703091685&sprefix=amazon%2Busb3%2Bpcie%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-4&th=1

These newer USB3 cards power up external Mechanical and SSD drives without issue and seem to be fine with it, it was annoying to route power to my old cards at the bottom of the HP servers

Back to FW, I have never blown a FW device or a FW card; I usually follow this rule, connect the FW device to the mac with the mac off, turn on power for the FW device, turn on the mac.

Ahhh... an update.. just found this on the Apple Community Forum:

Nowhere in the manual does it say that you cannot connect the AC power adapter to the FW 410 while a six pin (powered) firewire cable is in use. It does say that the AC adapter is included to power the unit when a computer with four pin firewire ports (the kind that don't supply power) is connected to the FW 410. As bus power from a firewire port is often the victim of RFI from the components in the computer, I was advised by M-Audio tech support to utilize external power whenever feasible to increase the SN ratio on the device. So basically they told me to connect both at the same time. I assume that the FW 410 knows when it is receiving power from the AC adapter and knows to not utilize the power from the firewire bus simultaneously. If you are really worried, I suggest you call M-Audio tech support and let them tell you what I just did. One final thought: I have used my FW 410 with two power sources (firewire and DC in) for the two years since I've had the unit.

[ssp3]

FYI. Just in case someone didn't have or read the manual.

Be careful with hotplugging M-Audio FW devices!

(This is similar to what Metric Halo said about damaging FW ports with faulty cables).

From M-Audio Firewire manual:

IMPORTANT:
It has come to our attention that problems have been reported with several types of
IEEE1394 (“FireWire”) devices, including M-Audio FireWire devices. These problems
occur when using a 6-pin bus-powered connection when plugging and unplugging
external FireWire devices, when both the computer and external device are powered on.
This is commonly referred to as “hotplugging”. In some cases the FireWire port on
the host computer system is rendered permanently inoperable. In other cases the
external FireWire device is rendered permanently inoperable. M-Audio does not want
users of M-Audio FireWire products to experience such costly problems.
Therefore, MAudio must require that users of M-Audio FireWire devices refrain from
hotplugging any M-Audio FireWire device.
You must make your FireWire connection while both computer and FireWire device are powered off; then power on.
In case your M-Audio FireWire device was not detected by your computer on startup, try the following
troubleshooting options instead of hotplugging it:
1. Turn your M-Audio FireWire device off, wait 30 seconds then power it on.
2. Put your computer into hibernation mode, wait 30 seconds then reactivate it.
3. Restart the computer (don’t turn it off) while the M-Audio FireWire device remains connected and powered on.

[aBc]

STRIKE TWO!

Windows XP Pro. Matches DieHard’s results?
Will now clean install XP Pro again - and try again.



Compared to visibleprisim’s:



And now, after yet another attempt here
with another clean wipe & install of XP Pro
and the entire process all over again…
same results as pictured here at top.

So yes @visibleprisim...
a detailed “process from scratch” would be greatly appreciated.


ANOTHER THOUGHT

Maybe THIS is a missing prep step?

An “older” Mac driver enabling use under Tiger 10.4
BEFORE any Windows machine & Windows driver installation?

[And back down that ol’ FW410 rabbit hole again!]

From @visibleprisim:

“I tried to connect the interface to newer machines and found it to be functional (again like many others here). In this case the M-Audio software showed a 2007 firmware version. The Pismo also has OS X installed, so I tried an older version of the driver/software to see if it would make a difference. I was able to get it running in OS X 10.4, but still wasn’t able to get it to work in OS 9.”

THEN, visibleprism went to Windows.

Yeah, I’m grabbing at straws again.

[teroyk]

Has anybody tested oldest OSX drivers for OSX 10.1.5?

[DieHard]

All three units (visibleprism,aBc,Diehard) are Model 2, Version 1

So one would think the ROM upgrade/downgrade would be a walk in the park, guess not; many good suggestions here, like simply finding some M-Audio ROM app in any OS, yes the ROM replacement seems to be tucked away in the software setup, and worst than than seems to be fickle when it does the downgrade.  visibleprism got it to downgrade without issue using the same software...

It could be that the Diehard and aBc unit ROMs are "too new" and our 2007 versions are beyond the range/scope of what the install will modify due to a failed "if...then..." in the setup.exe

We need to get a guy from M-Audio that has a utility that has not been released to the general public.

[ssp3]

What's interesting, all units have the same bootloader: 2003/04/04 13:46:25, despite having different firmware.

Are there any reports of M-Audio units being bricked during firmware update?
If not, I would try to interrupt the update process on Win/OSX so that there is no firmware and then move the unit to OS9.
But that just me, DON'T DO IT, if you're afraid of bricking yours.