Mac OS 9 Lives

Digital Audio Workstation & MIDI => Digital Audio Workstations & MIDI Applications => Plugins (VST,TDM,RTAS,MAS) => Topic started by: MacTron on November 13, 2014, 09:36:49 AM

Title: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on November 13, 2014, 09:36:49 AM
NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion:

Halion is a good and full sampler and Kompakt is way better as an advanced sample player, (letting the full sampler creation to his big broder Kontakt).

But, what of those are best in terms of CPU and RAM usage? ie number of instruments and polyphony?
I've run both samplers in Cubase in the same computer and with the same sampled instruments group.

The results in brief: Halion has double the power of Kompakt.

This are the data:

 Polyphony Time to Load (Sec)
 RAM (MB)
Kompakt DFD
 38
 19
 350
Kompakt
 51
 46
 750
Halion DFD
 76
 15
 350

The polyphony is the maximum achievable with this full setup. DFD means the samples are loaded in to RAM, just in part, the remaining part is loaded Direct From Disk.
Halion is very efficient with this technique. I couldn't achieve any benefit disabling it.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1983.0;attach=1436)

This picture show us the Cubase RAM load with Halion (the short bar) and with Kompakt without DFD (the larger bar)

And below we have a Kompakt and Halion snapshot showing the same instruments. We have to open two instances of Kompakt to accommodate the 16 instruments. Those instruments were chosen randomly between the lowest RAM usage ones.

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1983.0;attach=1438)

(http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1983.0;attach=1440)
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: supernova777 on November 13, 2014, 09:37:39 AM
double... is alot  8)
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on November 13, 2014, 10:56:54 AM
post updated with extra info...

Quote from: chrisNova777 on November 13, 2014, 09:37:39 AM
double... is alot  8)

Really.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: DieHard on November 13, 2014, 08:58:50 PM
Ahhhh... I knew you would defect and come the HALion camp sooner or later...lol
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 04:40:17 AM
now im just waiting for u guys to switch to ableton live;)  8)
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 14, 2014, 12:23:15 PM
Quote from: chrisNova777 on November 14, 2014, 04:40:17 AM
now im just waiting for u guys to switch to ableton live;)  8)
Chris, Can you take some SF2 soundfonts or AKAI and compare the sampler of ableton (I guess you use the REASON sampler rewired) with halion? Or Ableton has an Own sampler?

It seems that HALion is the Winner.   ::) ???  :-[

To be fair we ALL should use the same MIDI file and test in different scenarios. To achieve that we need a test from SF2 or SampleCell or AKAI S1000/3000.

I believe in the Logic 6.x / EXS 24mk2 combo. In fact, was one of the latest combos Seq/Sampler.

I am not sure if MacTron is dealing with a Logic version > 4.x.

My test machine is not from M.A.R.L.  ;D  It will be a Dual Ghz (2Mg Cache/Proc) with 1 Gig Ram, a more common machine for a Studio. Offtopic: Do You really use MDD in Studios? How you avoid the wind-tunnel in your Mic 

It is know that DieHard and MacTron are very in Single Processors machines for OS9. Most Logic users have dual machines. (In fact a LOT of Logic owners moved to G5s)




Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: supernova777 on November 14, 2014, 07:55:08 PM
ableton 4 supports all vst plugins
u can just load halion or kontakt directly
no need for reason via rewire but that works too
and ive used nn-xt + nn19 alot more then i have used kontakt i will admit
but ableton live is like one big sampler itself thats why i love it;)

mactron didnt say anything about exs24 from what i can see
mactron doesnt like logic or live!! he is cubase totalitarian;)
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on November 15, 2014, 03:22:03 AM
Quote from: chrisNova777 on November 14, 2014, 07:55:08 PM
mactron didnt say anything about exs24 from what i can see
mactron doesnt like logic or live!! he is cubase totalitarian;)

I'd explained this several times:
I was a Emagic Logic version 3x user in the 68k era. I never liked the interface, but what was totally unacceptable to me was the dongle (real or virtual) on versions 4.x onwards. At the same time put my eyes in to Cubase 4.0 and his VST technology and Logic never more...

Further more, the very bad impressions I have about Logic and EXS memory management further keep me away from them. So, even I'll be interested in the results,  the Emagic/Apple Logic test should be done by Logic users, not me.

... And in brief about Ableton Live: it don't fit at all in my working flow.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: supernova777 on November 15, 2014, 07:08:43 AM
mactron... relax;) this was humour;)  8) ;D :D
everyone is free to have their own opinion.
and everyone is more familiar with certain software then others..
we are human:)
(though some of us aspire to be super-human heheh)
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: arjen_1 on November 24, 2014, 04:14:58 AM
Hmmm...that's interesting. I love the simplicity of Kompakt but double polyphony can't be ignored.
Are the stability issues with Halion and other VSTI's solved in v2? I've quit using Halion v1 because of the multiple crashes it was causing.

Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: supernova777 on November 24, 2014, 06:05:44 AM
arjen_1
the stability issues u speak of are definately related to the crack and those instabilities would obv not be present in a real copy of halion 1 or halion 2... so the problem/fault is on a bad crack.. not halion itself
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on November 24, 2014, 07:21:22 AM
Quote from: arjen_1 on November 24, 2014, 04:14:58 AM
Hmmm...that's interesting. I love the simplicity of Kompakt but double polyphony can't be ignored.

I'm agree.

Quote from: arjen_1 on November 24, 2014, 04:14:58 AM
Are the stability issues with Halion and other VSTI's solved in v2? I've quit using Halion v1 because of the multiple crashes it was causing.

The first impressions aren't good in the stability category.
But I don't have a full verdict, until I have done a couple of songs with massively use of Halion 2, as I do with Kompakt.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: Jakl on November 24, 2014, 05:01:24 PM
Quote from: chrisNova777 on November 24, 2014, 06:05:44 AM
arjen_1
the stability issues u speak of are definately related to the crack and those instabilities would obv not be present in a real copy of halion 1 or halion 2... so the problem/fault is on a bad crack.. not halion itself

No there is no such thing - The Halion Disk will install correctly
as long you have installed Cubase VST32 first - there is no KRACK NEEDED!

Please get this clear - Once Cubase VST32 is installed
on your system any Proper Copy of the Halion 1 or 2 Disk should install
okay. This was always the case with my installs. Cubase VST32 was needed
to set up almost every Steinberg VST instrument even Mastering Edition Effects.
So Cubase VST32(Never tried the other versions, VST24, Score etc) once installed
will open up your computer to install all the other VST instruments and some effects
without having to enter any serial number whatsoever.

The only way I could see that this would not happen is if CubaseVST32 serial
number was a KRACK serial number. Even then I don't know.

Halion v1 is very buggy yes even after the updates - Halion 2 is much more stable.
Use Halion 2 would be my advice but use a fast G4 not a G3 for Halion 2.

Anyway my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: DieHard on November 24, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
Let me first start by saying, back in the day, my company tested every sampler that worked on OS 9 and after deciding to standardize on Nuendo and Cubase for hosts, HALion was the clear sampler winner with both of those Hosts.

Halion 1 with updates (v1.13) is very stable and I have used it for many huge projects in the past, it does have some quirks / navigational bugs, but these do not crash the system; also finding samples is a real bitch since the program or Bank may have sample paths defined as relational directories to the parent folder OR as hard-coded paths; so there are a few tricks when it comes to finding all the correct samples.... also I strongly recommend always "Printing" a sampler track to audio once the track in finished as a standard practice with any sampler under OS 9, since it will help with project portability later and potential problems when mixing if resources are getting low due to many sampler instrument tracks.

Now as far as HALion 2 (Public Beta 2.0.2) ... a HUGE advantage is the "Global Sample Path"; this corrects finding lost samples in an instant and is very easy for newbies
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: arjen_1 on November 25, 2014, 11:21:32 AM
Thanks for your comments. I didn't use any cracked software before.
I will give Halion 2 a try!

Greetz,
Arjen
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on December 05, 2014, 02:20:53 PM
Oh my god...
what a big deception!
In the real test the results are the opposite!  :'(

I've tested one of my songs with Orchestra and Choirs. And Halion can't go, even with choirs only!

After passing the last weeks in to finding and translating the best sample libraries to Halion ...

How  such a radically different results can be obtained?  :o
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on December 05, 2014, 03:57:59 PM
I have done a second real life test that keeps Halion falling against Kompakt ...

I can accept that Halion don't have Round Robin, the keyswichs and other "conditionals" are a mesh and the group edit is near to nonexistent. But now I find that it's "double the power of Kompakt" that even myself have proclaimed, it's the opposite ...

I'll make a few real test more  , and I'll forget Halion once again, may be this time is forever.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: IIO on December 05, 2014, 07:55:15 PM
can it be that you were using different buffer sizes for the host app? in the MacOS info picture you posted above you have two instances of cubase open. you were using 2 different drivers, right?
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on December 06, 2014, 12:26:47 PM
Quote from: IIO on December 05, 2014, 07:55:15 PM
can it be that you were using different buffer sizes for the host app?

No, the buffers size are the same.

Quote
in the MacOS info picture you posted above you have two instances of cubase open. you were using 2 different drivers, right?

This two Cubases are not running at the same time. The picture is just to easy compare both cases...
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: VMS on November 20, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
Quote from: MacTron on December 05, 2014, 03:57:59 PM
I have done a second real life test that keeps Halion falling against Kompakt ...

I can accept that Halion don't have Round Robin, the keyswichs and other "conditionals" are a mesh and the group edit is near to nonexistent. But now I find that it's "double the power of Kompakt" that even myself have proclaimed, it's the opposite ...

I'll make a few real test more  , and I'll forget Halion once again, may be this time is forever.

so, how's the final result
what are their true numbers of polypony?
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: MacTron on November 21, 2016, 08:05:39 AM
Quote from: VMS on November 20, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
so, how's the final result
what are their true numbers of polypony?

The test show me a thing first and later the opposite. So there isn't a truly test  :'( ...
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: VMS on November 24, 2016, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: MacTron on November 21, 2016, 08:05:39 AM
Quote from: VMS on November 20, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
so, how's the final result
what are their true numbers of polypony?

The test show me a thing first and later the opposite. So there isn't a truly test  :'( ...
do you mean that halion couldn't reach 76 voices in the 2nd test?
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: VMS on November 25, 2016, 11:19:04 AM
ok I have just tested kompakt & halion2 on a windows 10 laptop (cpu i3 2348m)
their performance are quite close
the main difference is how they handle pitch-transposition

setting:
results are the average of 20 takes
no. of voices in effect = 61
filters are bypassed
volume env. are on with long hold long sus.
a 5mins 44/16 sample is used which covers 61 keys
direct from disc
GUI are visible

cpu usage result 1  [non pitch tracking (will not transpose from the root key)]

kompakt = 10-11%
halion2 (good quality+ good resampling quality) = 12%
halion2 (mid quality+ good resampling quality) = 10-11%

cpu usage result 2  [pitch tracking (will transpose from the root key)]

kompakt = 12-13%
halion2 (good quality+ good resampling quality) = 11-12%
halion2 (mid quality+ good resampling quality) = 10%
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: Protools5LEGuy on November 25, 2016, 02:34:42 PM
Thanks for your Windows 10 benchmark, but we always are talking about performance on Mac OS 9, because x86 and PowerPC software depends on optimizations, mostly Altivec (G4) vs Pentium IV (SSE) related.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: VMS on November 25, 2016, 03:46:23 PM
Quote from: Protools5LEGuy on November 25, 2016, 02:34:42 PM
Thanks for your Windows 10 benchmark, but we always are talking about performance on Mac OS 9, because x86 and PowerPC software depends on optimizations, mostly Altivec (G4) vs Pentium IV (SSE) related.
yea I know but I left my powerbook at home
and I wont go home until xmas
anyway the results should be consistent with os9
ie: kompakt needs more cpu power for pitch-transposition
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: IIO on November 27, 2016, 01:30:20 PM
how much CPU is required for the antialiasing of transposed samples might eventually depend on the version of the product. i´d doubt that the OS9 kontakt is doing it at all.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: VMS on November 27, 2016, 04:15:21 PM
Quote from: IIO on November 27, 2016, 01:30:20 PM
how much CPU is required for the antialiasing of transposed samples might eventually depend on the version of the product. i´d doubt that the OS9 kontakt is doing it at all.

um...we are talking about kompakt, not kontakt
I don't think those lazy NI stuff had updated anything regarding antialiasing for kompakt
here's the changelogs

Quote
KOMPAKT 1.0.8
Improvements
Overload detection at 95 % now cuts 10 % of played voices (oldest first)
Fixes
Load menu not sticky in "Remove" section (Mac only)
About screen source problem (Mac only)
Tiger AU validation issue (Mac only)
More than 2 GB RAM stopped Kompakt from loading in Cubase SX 3. (PC only)
Offline bounce dropouts
Hanging notes in logic 5.5.1. (PC only)
KOMPAKT 1.0.3
Improvements
DFD performance has been vastly improved.
The latest Kompakt update contains a new button in the options menu: "Lock Memory (No Swap)". After running the updater, this option will be DISABLED by default, which should result in faster loading times for some users. If you experience clicks during playback, simply enable the option by clicking the button. Most users should experience improved performance with this option enabled, but patches will load more slowly.
Fixes
Pressing group edit button crashes Pro Tools
Poor performance (RTAS)
DFD not available in RTAS / HTDM plug-in
Error on exiting Nuendo or Cubase SX
Crash in sonar 3 while playing midi-keyboard and resetting the instrument
Enable reverb while playback in host crashes engine
Selection list for delay in sync mode
Crash when re-activating plug-in
Sustain pedal settings are not stored in memory
Crash when switching DFD off
Crash when in group mode and loading a new patch
Crash in NI_DFD during multi-instance playback
Whole instrument turns off when switching DFD off
Distortion after letting Kompakt run for a few hours
VST version crashes Cakewalk Project5 on insertion
KOMPAKT 1.0.1
Fixes
Several problems and crashes regarding creating and importing sample files fixed
Browser refresh problems fixed
Known issues
The effect send produce a zipping noise when moved.
Kompakt can lock Logic key commands.
Mouse scrollwheel does not work in all hosts programs.
The level meter could be more accurate.
Giga import can produce large amounts of data.
DXi causes problems upon exit.
KOMPAKT 1.0
Notes
Hard disk energy save mode of the content hard disk will cause crackles. Make sure your HD does not go into sleep mode to have the best possible performance.
The library hard disk needs to be as defragmented as possible to deliver good load results.
Logic only allows to automate 128 parameters. Every parameter above that limit is clipped.
SF2, AKAI, Giga files are handled like folder. Simply open them and load Instruments or single samples from them.
The option settings are global for all instances of KOMPAKT. Changing them for one instance, will change them for all instances. For the effect to take place all instances of KOMPAKT need to be restarted. A simple solution here is to reload the song.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: IIO on November 27, 2016, 08:46:10 PM
then what else could make a sampler require so much more cpu for playing a file compared to other samplers.

the result of 200% almost sounds like 16 to 32 bits or 44 khz to 96 khz...
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: VMS on November 28, 2016, 05:16:09 AM
Quote from: IIO on November 27, 2016, 08:46:10 PM
then what else could make a sampler require so much more cpu for playing a file compared to other samplers.

the result of 200% almost sounds like 16 to 32 bits or 44 khz to 96 khz...
Not sure....
Maybe halion was optimized for pitch-transposition ?
We cant tell unless we analysis the transposed audio
Unfortunately i am not familir with such thing

Anyway kompakt does use less cpu power than halion for non transposed thing
I guess thats why MacTron got contradictions in the tests.
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: IIO on November 29, 2016, 07:45:24 PM
i believe there is not much to optimize. it is just converting rates... maybe one of them has an (unneccessary) high precision mixer and the other one not...
Title: Re: Time for the true. NI Kompakt against Steinberg Halion.
Post by: VMS on November 30, 2016, 08:05:49 AM
Quote from: IIO on November 29, 2016, 07:45:24 PM
i believe there is not much to optimize. it is just converting rates... maybe one of them has an (unneccessary) high precision mixer and the other one not...
all can say is that they do sound quite different on highly transposed stuff

let's hope that someone could make an audio analysis to clear things up