Mac OS 9 Lives
Digital Audio Workstation & MIDI => Digital Audio Workstations & MIDI Applications => Vision & Studio Vision by Opcode => Topic started by: part12studios on September 01, 2020, 10:34:06 AM
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Anyone happen to know where i might find this? Looking for a MIDI/Digital Audio DAW combo that will work on a Quadra 650 and an AudioMedia 2 card. I found some later 90's stuff on the usual mac garden/repository.. but none of them seem to have the early 90's software that can do audio/midi under one roof.
This article points to what i'm talking about more specifically
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/studio-vision/7370
Thanks,
Caleb
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*I was going to put a question here but I decided to save it for last.
You're going to find that the early version of StudioVision (not "Pro") is almost nonexistent.
Two reasons:
1) It was released ONLY on PACE-protected floppies that had two and only two installs. You could "put them back" if you say, changed computers but if your HDD died so did the install on it. If you "ran out" of installs, you would call Opcode, verify your identity and they'd send you a replacement floppy. That worked fine until they went out of business. If you can find an original floppy, you can run the app as long as you have it for verification but they were scarce to begin with, most of them have long since been lost or have gone bad and the few that remain cannot be found or pried from the hands of those who have one.
2) The original didn't work worth a shit anyway. Why? because the Mac 68k computers (even the 68040) weren't capable of anything beyond basic 16/44 (or lower) stereo recording…not that PC's were any better…they were worse. StudioVision PRO worked because it used the Mac's Aloisen Audio Engine but that depended on having a PPC CPU.
So now I'll ask the question: Why on Earth would you want one?
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Thanks for the insight Gary! Well the long and the short of it is i'm working on a video game set in a post apocalyptic 1996.. and wanted to make music using only gear predating the end of the world (December 12th 1994) and thus seeing what kind of DAW options there were. The guy I bought the card from hooked me up with a DVD of old mac software. including the drivers and extensions which i'm working on now.
So yea that's the main reason.. i know i could do just straight midi sequencing which is fine. i may still do that and just make the soundtrack live and mix it all through a stereo reel to reel from the 70's I have.. but i thought it would be cool to see if i could use some of the same software used by NIN from TDS and even Broken.. not that i'm trying to sound like NIN, but i respect those works and using tools that they were using is just kinda cool.. but i'm not married to it either. i have some early Digital Performer software as well i'll test out..
I even got my handso n a Midiman smpte machine as well if i wanted to get into SMPTE syncing with a 4track (what i have) or even maybe find something nicer (which i don't have).. we'll see.
Thanks for that though, i'd not heard anything about early studio vision software being licensed like that..
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If you're curious about NIN, make sure you read this thread:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/605445-nine-inch-nails-synths.html
It's a legendary forum thread if there even is such a thing. Charlie Clouser shows up a few pages in and he's still posting stories in it.
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Thanks for the insight Gary! Well the long and the short of it is i'm working on a video game set in a post apocalyptic 1996.. and wanted to make music using only gear predating the end of the world (December 12th 1994)………
I even got my handso n a Midiman smpte machine as well if i wanted to get into SMPTE syncing with a 4track (what i have) or even maybe find something nicer (which i don't have).. we'll see.
Thanks for that though, i'd not heard anything about early studio vision software being licensed like that..
* Dammit! 1994… I knew something happened that year.
* Your concept of MIDI + SMPTE is right on. I'm an old fart. I was there. At that time, MIDI sequencing was in high gear with people actually using multiple keyboards chained together and the Alesis Midiverbs were the coolest things ever. You would use a MIDI drum machine, whatever you could get out of your synth(s) - decent samplers existed, but they were really expensive - and you would put guitars, horns, vocals, whatever had to be "real" on tape. An 8-track was luxury since you could get 6 (or even 7 if you were careful) tracks but even 2 or 3 with a 4-track was often enough. The best part is that it kept all of those Tascam and other machines alive. People that started before there even was MIDI were in heaven… MIDI is what turned the home project studio into a place where you could actually make a "real" recording on a budget.
* Actually, almost all Opcode software was distributed on those damn protected floppies. The CD ROM was still in its infancy when they were shut down.
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@rvense thanks for sharing that, however i'm right there with ya, in fact Charlike just replied yesterday with two very juicy replies to my inquiry of what computer(s) they were using back in that era.. Broken/TDS.. which was my main focus..
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/605445-nine-inch-nails-synths-31.html
TL;DR he recalls most likely they were Mac IIfx because of all of the nubus slots needed for all the digidesign interface hardware needed back then when each set of 4 In/Outs required a dedicated card, so if you wanted 16 ins and outs you'd need 4 nubus slots.. later in TDS he said it was some quadra model but wasn't 100% sure which
I'm not likely to find nor willing to pay much for those interfaces but my AudioMedia 2 Nubus card i think will get me close enough to a DAW.
I had a working setup with smpte and music-x on my amiga 1200 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdecP2zCAYs but at the time didn't love music x so i didn't pursue that workflow. this time i'm more resolved to go this route for this project.. hopefully this will work.. but i can test with amiga 1200 as a secondary system still
I'd prefer doing all digital though if possible.. even if it were only 3-4 audio tracks and yea even with the flaws of digital summing at that time and 16bit recording.. i'd be stoked to see it working
my Quarda 650 however is now sick.. i think the psu went on it.. either that or the on/off switch. ordered another one hoping that does the trick.. since that was easier than pulling the whole board and replacing that sob..
the floppy had bad caps on it which is currently in the shop getting serviced though i also ordered another as i didn't have a lot of faith (or patience) that a surface mounted cap replacement job by my usual repair guy would be successful. if he's successful i have a spare drive..
While studio vision acquisition may be a pipe dream, i've found a few other early midi gems like Digital Performer and a few others thanks to our usual sources (garden / repository) and a DVD toast image the guy who sold me the audiomedia 2 card.. i'm pretty sure he's got some stuff not previously found on mac garden/repository that i will look into uploading like the audiomedia 2 drivers and more.
Yea i remember the 8 track reel to reels back in the day.. i had one.. it was even modified to turn off noise reduction on track 8 for smpte.. really wish i had held on to that, given it had such a cool mod.. there was a flip switch on the back that would bypass / enable..
but yea the smpte path (spoiled by even OS9 era DAW) of syncing sequence to tape isn't the most enjoyable process. however my plan has always been (worst case) to just do live sequencing of everything and mixing live to a reel to reel.
I'm avoiding doing daisychaining so far with my x2 MTP AV via serial or usb.. giving me 16 dedicated ins / outs. but i'm right now kinda at the ceiling.. just got a C64 + cynthcart / midi cart / expander (though that is experiencing "stuck notes" from the new hardware, working through that).. so it's getting crowded but daisychaining may be an option if it comes down to it. even if 1-2 machines..
so yea worst case i have enough mixer channels to house all the instruments (though not all will have dedicated eq due to line mixer filling in the shortage from my Mackie 1402vlz..
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You're going to find that the early version of StudioVision (not "Pro") is almost nonexistent.
....
1) It was released ONLY on PACE-protected floppies
GaryN, what was the difference between StudioVision and StudioVision Pro?
I never used it, but am sure I had versions 3.0 and 3.5 that were "fixed" and working properly ;) Not sure anymore whether they were Pro or not. If my CDRs from that time are still alive I might still have them.
part12studios, does it have to be StudioVision? With that Q650 and Audiomedia II card you have other alternatives as well.
1. Ciubase 3 (XT?)
2. ProTools up to 3.2
3. ProTools 3.4 free, which, btw, can be made into full PT3.4 (3.2 actually). ResEdit and elbow grease required. I've done it in the past as a proof of concept.
4. ProTools 4.0.1 (last version for 68k Macs)
http://web.archive.org/web/19970709061858/http://www.digidesign.com/Newdigiweb/Digiservice/Compatofolder/CompatSysNB.html#PTIII
Some other tools for 2 track processing that can talk to AMII and use its DSP directly:
1 Sound Designer 2.8.3 - 24 bit capable! On NuBus even with Plug-In support - DUY, Waves.
2.Waves 2.3 MultiRack with 2.3 Plug-Ins. Use with File I/O option to playback and/or to process files in real time. IIRC, it's 24 bit capable too.
Hope this helps.
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That would be awesome of a fixed studio vision could be found! However I understand how that can go.
No, it doesn't have to be studiovision. in fact i'd LOVE to experiment with any DAWs of that time, especially ones that would do digital recording and midi together.. but i'm ok with just midi of course.
Will those software packages all "see" the AM2 card? is this like how it was back in the DOS days where you'd boot up and software would list a number of sound cards and you picked the one you had? i can't imagine there were a lot of audio card options at that time. Still pretty early for digital audio multitracking and Apple i hear was not the fastest to respond to the market's demand for audio support.
I'll try those others out for sure once i get the Quadra back alive ("new" PSU is in the mail now)
Man that's all great to hear.
BONUS QUESTION. So I have a fully working Mac SE next to me (fighting to get the damn system to install/see my zip drive hooked up to it, and the drive is definitely 100%) but I wonder what options for music it might have too. i have several serial midi interfaces for mac at my disposal. I don't expect digital audio with that of course, just midi.
My main preference with midi software is that it support piano roll editing because i never got fluent with sheet music. i know some software in that era would sometimes assume it was for "literate musicians" :) it's not a deal breaker but it would be prefered.
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You're going to find that the early version of StudioVision (not "Pro") is almost nonexistent.
....
1) It was released ONLY on PACE-protected floppies
GaryN, what was the difference between StudioVision and StudioVision Pro?
I never used it, but am sure I had versions 3.0 and 3.5 that were "fixed" and working properly ;) Not sure anymore whether they were Pro or not. If my CDRs from that time are still alive I might still have them.
The original was simply changed from "Vision" (MIDI-only) to "Studiovision" when audio capability was added.
I am not a historian with knowledge of all the minutiae of versions and dates, but:
Basically, "Studiovision" as a name was short-lived. It used either the built-in Apple Sound manager or outboard hardware like the AMII or original PoorTools cards to add digital audio to what was already the best MIDI sequencer you could buy.
"Studiovision Pro" appeared around the same time as Mac Power PC's. Those computers, would run OS 8.6 or OS 9 which included the then-new Mac Acadia Audio Engine. "Pro" exploited that software (while still handling older cards) and/or the Digidesign Audio Engine (DAE… enabling one to run both PT and SVP cooperatively) but for the first time, with Acadia it was actually possible to handle multiple tracks at high-quality bitrates using only the Mac CPU… that was a real game-changer.
It's important to note that despite their similarities and potentially competitive positions, for a time Opcode and Digidesign were located literally across the street from each other in Palo Alto and cooperated on some things in the then-brave new world of DAW software. I suspect they saw a path to coexist (combining Opcode's MIDI expertise with Digi's Digital audio tech) with PT being aimed toward the high-end pro world (as in expensive, needing all those additional PCI cards) and SVP toward the semi-pro market using the built-in Mac audio engine.
Again: I wasn't there! Don't hold me to this literally. These are observations I made as an informed user at the time.
Versions 3 and 3.5 were "Pro". Those were among the earliest (again, not precise!) versions distributed on CDROM. If you still have the CD, the app may run but will demand you mount the CD. I am not aware of anyone defeating the challenge-response protection on those. I would think we would have heard about that by now and we haven't. They can be found on oldschooldaw if you are curious.
All of that said, I personally consider trying to assemble and run 68k hardware and original PT cards and all of that ilk to be utterly pointless unless you're "just having fun with Model T computers". The audio quality is grungy at best and the hardware is temperamental to say the least. It was one thing to drop a small fortune then when you could call for support 3 times a day (and actually get it) but it's a guaranteed exercise in frustration now when there's nobody to tell you why the entire thing crashes when you try to use your favorite plugin that worked fine last week…
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I am not aware of anyone defeating .... I would think we would have heard about that by now and we haven't.
This means you weren't hanging around the right places ;)
They can be found on oldschooldaw if you are curious.
Ha! Guess what - that place has at least two versions, including the brilliant snapCASE "method", so, there you go "we haven't heard of" ;) The earlier one was by The Mad .. of Sweden (or something like that, the exact name escapes me)
All of that said, I personally consider trying to assemble and run 68k hardware and original PT cards and all of that ilk to be utterly pointless unless you're "just having fun with Model T computers". The audio quality is grungy at best and the hardware is temperamental to say the least.
As they say, to each his own. Sometimes the limited number of choices have positive effect on creative process. Yes, Digi was finicky, but what else do you expect when dealing with complex audio hardware. When it was working, it was working and people actually made real music (and money) on those systems.
As to the grungy sound, well, I wouldn't mix any classical project on old PT today, but for some genre that grungy sound might be exactly what the doctor prescribed.
P.S. I don't want to go into discussing technical side of outboard interface quality differences, but want to point out that SDII/AMII combo in a 68k NuBus Mac over SPDIF and coupled with decent outboard A/D and D/A converters is absolutely on par with todays systems when it comes to recording and playback (no processing). Limited to 24bit/48kHz, of course, although I've heard from one reputable source back in the day that it can play back 96kHz over SPDIF.
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Limited to 24bit/48kHz
24 bit recording on a nubus mac? yeah, you wish. :)
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maybe just 24bit playback? i know the amiga was able to fake "14-bit" from 8bit hardware,
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only the digital out gave you 24 bit (but for what would you need that^^)
anyone knows what the first 24 bit cards for mac were? not paris, no?
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yea no idea.. i'm cool with 16bit honestly. doing music in that era, i'm open to less than ideal digital recording. my hope is that the 68040 33mhz can do at least 4 tracks of digital audio (16bit) + midi. not sure what it will take. I have an external SCSI hard drive to use with it for recording.
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When I saw this yesterday, I chose to simply ignore it rather than go down a rabbit hole about something only 3 people in the whole world give a s**t about.
Today however, I'm in a much more confrontational mood.
I am not aware of anyone defeating .... I would think we would have heard about that by now and we haven't.
This means you weren't hanging around the right places ;)
I've been hanging around in ALL of the places Opcode users gathered for years. If you know something I don't, perhaps you would be so kind as to actually explain how to defeat that challenge-response system.
As they say, to each his own. Sometimes the limited number of choices have positive effect on creative process. Yes, Digi was finicky, but what else do you expect when dealing with complex audio hardware. When it was working, it was working and people actually made real music (and money) on those systems.
As to the grungy sound, well, I wouldn't mix any classical project on old PT today, but for some genre that grungy sound might be exactly what the doctor prescribed.
P.S. I don't want to go into discussing technical side of outboard interface quality differences, but want to point out that SDII/AMII combo in a 68k NuBus Mac over SPDIF and coupled with decent outboard A/D and D/A converters is absolutely on par with todays systems when it comes to recording and playback (no processing). Limited to 24bit/48kHz, of course, although I've heard from one reputable source back in the day that it can play back 96kHz over SPDIF.
Well, I said "personally"… What you describe, while certainly possible, TODAY involves a lot of searching, bug killing, adapting and maintenance to record and playback more than just a few tracks and it all comes crashing down should any of those almost-irreplaceable NuBus cards give you trouble.
"Digi was finicky" is the understatement of the month! I used to do large-screen video service. Many of my clients were post-production studios in Los Angeles. I saw the early SoundTools and ProTools systems first-hand. Those guys had one hand permanently attached to a telephone because they were on the phone with Digi and/or Apple support constantly. So they got the crap straightened out, sometimes made their deadlines and even made money.
You cannot do that today. There is NO tech support and almost zero documentation for ancient Digidesign product, or Audiomedia or Opcode or anybody else.
That's fine if you're just in it for the fun but you just cannot operate that way if your life, job, profession or sanity depends on you actually producing stuff. You have got to have a minimum level of reliability and efficiency so you can focus on the product and not be constantly be distracted by and tending to the method.
I have enough backup hardware to probably assemble two more complete OS9 systems. That simply means that if ANY component fails for any reason, I can simply go to the shelf and grab a replacement. That's the only way to reliably operate using long out-of-production hardware built by long-gone companies you can't call on the phone anymore for support.
I've gotten "lost" more than once in the past chasing tech issues and details and mysterious crashes and unexplainable distortions and snaps and buzzes and and and and and…
At some point you make a decision about what you're really there for. Playing with vintage hardware and software OR making music. If it's music, you must find a level of performance and reliability that allows you to stop being distracted by the engine noises so you can just get on with getting down the road.
I personally do not believe that's possible with 68k systems anymore. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you can scour the Earth, spend the rent money on extra parts and actually build some kind of system that will produce what you want it to. Knowing how long it took me to settle in on my OS9 / OSX G4 setup, I shudder to think about chasing after Nubus cards, Magma chassis's almost-nonexistent converters etc. I much prefer to just push the power button and have it all work at least the majority of the time.
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(opcode users had their own warez scene?) :P
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(opcode users had their own warez scene?) :P
There have been Opcode user groups as long ago as Compuserve and Topica in the days of 56kb modems.
There was one active on Yahoo until just a few months ago and there's also one on Facebook.
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Limited to 24bit/48kHz
24 bit recording on a nubus mac? yeah, you wish. :)
Go do some research, you Klugscheißer :)
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that is relatively simple. http://archive.digidesign.com/support/propix/AM2.html
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Facebook.
that´s what i thought. ^^
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so regarding that digital in and out.. i've never really used that. what capabilities would that allow? wondering if that might work maybe with say... and ADAT unit or something.. something that might enable more than 2 in / 2 out RCA. I've seen gear over the years that has this but never explored it further. Might have me looking for other possible hardware that could talk to the card that way vs unbalanced RCAs
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I think it's just a digital version of what's on the analogue jacks. The card only supports two channels of i/o as far as I remember. I have one, but haven't used it much.
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well, you could attach an external 24 bit DAC and/or ADC to it, or a second computer with an AM II or AM III.
i´ve never used mine. for what? everything else was analog or 16 bits.
hehe, i just had to think of these so called "24 bit" converter card from lucid audio.
that was nubus already i think, but when you had a closer look at it it required the system 7 soundmanager and wouldnt work with anything else, so you could still only record and replay 16 bit files. my dealer recommended the AM III instead, it at least did what it says.^^
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>hehe, i just had to think of these so called "24 bit" converter card from lucid audio.
Wow that is so long ago! I may have some of my facts mixed up, but I remember buying a Nubus Lucid Audio card for the purpose of transfering Sony Walkman DAT tapes to the computer. The Lucid Audio card required a Lucid driver, and they claimed it was Asio compliant. I believe I was using Bias Peak, and even though the DAT was only 16 bit, I was trying to transfer directly to a 24 bit file which Peak allows and recommends for editing.
But the Lucid driver was NOT Asio compliant, and did NOT allow this. I contacted Lucid to request an updated driver, and they said they would NOT be making an update, and would soon discontinue selling the card. So, the file had to be transferred in real time, and then you needed to spend the time and have the hard drive space to convert the 16 bit file to 24 bits.
That's when I discovered the joy of "Audio capable" SCSI DAT drives using DatAudio 0.5.
I think I still have the Nubus card in an 840AV. Can't check because Covid doesn't permit me to go back home.
I also think I still have an extra DAT faceplate made especially for the 840AV.
Thanks for the memories! Until you mentioned Lucid, I couldn't even recall their name.
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maybe later ones? the nubus 24-something for sure not. yeah it was working with deck, cubase audio, opecode, a few others.
i have more problems to remember specs of hardware units. for example i keep thinking EMU VI / EMU darwin would have been 24 bit recording already. i still have 2 units of EMU E-64 but it is so long ago that i actually used them...
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Ok took overcoming some setbacks and i'm not 100% ready to close it up (waiting on ram) but i got my first hello world working with AudioMedia II card in Quadra 650.. however digital performer is 1996.. 1.7.1 is the oldest i could find. Does anyone know
I've also relaxed the dates some and made the appocalypse in late 1995.. so i'm looking at 1995 DAW or older..
the most exciting thing of course is that i see that DP:
1. saw my serial midi interface (fastlane)
2. recorded and played back MIDI
3. recorded audio coming in
4. played back audio and midi
The post processing was a bit sluggish after recording, but i'm only running on 24mb of ram.. and not using an external SCSI drive.. it's recording to the system drive so i think with more memory and a secondary drive the workflow will be better
So i think next it's going to be cubase 2.x which is 1994.. going to be wild working on monochrome but that's part of the journey :) maybe there are color options and the screenshots were just taken from a monochrome mac.
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Lucid Technologies NB24 - NuBus Digital Audio I/O Card (Jan, 1997-1999, discontinued by 2000, latest drivers were available via ftp://ftp.halcyon.com/pub/users/lucid/Software/ (http://ftp://ftp.halcyon.com/pub/users/lucid/Software/))
Professional digital only I/O for the Macintosh
Don't throw away that Mac!
The NB24 was designed to help you get the most from the Mac you already own. So you can continue to use
an older NuBus Mac as a digital audio workstation. No other product can revitalize a NuBus Mac in this
way.
Key features of the NB24
S/PDIF digital I/O
48kHz, 44.1kHz, 32kHz sample rates, with 22.05kHz to 48kHz output ranges.
Use with Lucid ADA1000 or any outboard A/D-D/A converter, including DAT machines and CD
players
On board 24-bit DSP (Digital Signal Processor)
Works with most NuBus Macs
The Lucid NB24 provides the ability to bring high quality digital signals into the computer where it can be
edited and processed by your favorite software. No longer limited to low bit rates or resolutions, The Lucid
Technology NB24 provides 24 bit processing. This higher resolution insures that you will get a true 16 bit
storage into your computer. (Macintosh Sound Manager is limited to 16 bit storage). As newer software is
developed that allows higher storage rates the NB24's 24 bit processing won't become outdated.
The NB24 is a low cost, plug-in card for direct digital connections into and out of most NuBus equipped
Apple Macintoshs. This allows a digital only signal to be sent or received from the computer. Devices such
as DAT machines or samplers can plug in directly via standard S/PDIF (IEC 958) ports to the NB24 for
transfer in the digital domain. External A/D and D/A converters (such as the Lucid ADA1000) can also be
added to allow analog signals to be processed. Don't throw out that NuBus computer because of changes in
the whim of the computer manufacturer. The Lucid NB24 allows you to interface with higher quality digital
devices and current editing softwares.
Supported Computers
Any Macintosh with an available standard 7inch
NuBus slot
Power Computer - Any model with standard 7-inch
NuBus slots
Suggested Minimum CPU speeds
CPU speed greater than 20mhz for stereo applications
50mHz or greater for multitrack applications
System RAM
12Mb RAM minimum
14.12.22, 23:16 NB24 - Professional digital only I/O for the Macintosh
https://web.archive.org/web/19980214054653/http://www.lucidtechnology.com/nb24.htm 2/2
24Mb or more recommeded (as dictated by
application software)
Required Software Components
Mac OS 7.5x,7.6.1 or 8.0 and above
Sound control panel panel 8.0.3 or greater
Apple Sound Manager 3.1 or greater (for pre 7.5.2
Mac OS)
Lucid NB24 driver
The NB24 supports the following software applications:
Peak from Bias v1.0 - 1.6
Deck II v2.2 & 2.5.1 or SoundEdit 16 v2.0
Opcode AudioShop and/or Studio Vision Pro v3.0
(stereo only)
Digidesign Session 2.0 and/or Protools Powermix
v3.2
Cubase VST 3.01 (3.5 coming soon!) ASIO driver
coming soon for 3.02 - 3.52.
Logic Audio v2.5
You can now make perfect digital audio transfers into and out of most any NuBus equipped Apple
Macintosh. The NB24 is a low cost plug-in card for making direct digital connections from Macintosh to
DATs, outboard A/D and D/A converters, samplers, or any other digital audio devices with industry standard
S/PDIF (IEC 958) ports. With the added bonus of a 24-bit digital signal processing chip on board, the NB24
brings DSP functionality to NuBus Macs at an unbelievably low price.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/lucid-technology-nb24-ada1000 (https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/lucid-technology-nb24-ada1000)
Compatibility:
- The Lucid card works fine with Cubase 3.01 via the Sound Manager driver. Unfortunately there is not yet an ASIO driver for Cubase 3.02, so right now it only does output with 3.02.
- Q: Does/will Cubase VST make use of the DSP capabilities of the NB24? A: No, VST only uses the PowerPC chip for all its processing. That situation is unlikely to change.
- their web site states that Sound Manager doesn't support >16bits yet. It's not false advertising, they're just claiming support for greater sound in the future.
- Leading Sound Manager compatible applications include Logic Audio from Emagic, Deck II from Macromedia, Session 2.0 from DigiDesign, and Studio Vision from Opcode.
summary: EOL technology that nobody ever picked up upon, since the superior PCI was already available & soon discontinued.
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(edited)