Mac OS 9 Lives
Mac OS 9 Discussion => Software => Topic started by: nateman831 on November 02, 2022, 09:16:23 AM
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I wanted to start a thread to discuss what “music players” have ASIO support
Why ASIO?
Well, for some (usually high end) interfaces, ASIO is the only option - there is no Sound Manager support. Also, I just think it sounds better…
After taking a look around, it's not looking good. I don't see anything like SoundJam, or Audion, etc. In fact, I tried many, MANY more players, and none of them supported ASIO - until you get to actual music production apps.
Which is where I'm looking at the moment - which of course is using an app for a purpose it wasn't really designed for
Top Criteria:
(1) ASIO support
(2) "Playlists"
(3) MP3 support
APPS TESTED SO FAR:
** Spark XL 2.80 **
This is - so far - the best I've found... It's stable. Supports "playlists". Supports AIFF, WAV, and probably a few other formats, BUT NOT mp3.
Problems:
(1) won’t let me import MOST of my library - even though they’re supported formats - It doesn’t even “see” them
(2) doesn't progress to the next song in the playlist after finishing the previous one. Maybe there is a way to do it, but I just haven't figured it out yet.
(3) makes a mess of my hard disk, creating .OVW files (800 kb a piece) next to all the original audio files
** PlayerPro 5.8 or later **
On the upside, this supports MP3, besides WAV, AIFF, and many other formats. It also has a playlist. Technically, it should support ASIO, but this turns out to be where the problems begin
Problems:
(1) Doesn’t actually seem to support ASIO - or maybe just not in OS 9. The selection for ASIO is there, but when you select it, it says the driver is not working
*The freeware version lets you go a step further, and select the appropriate ASIO driver, but then it just ends up routing through whatever’s chosen in Sound Manager
(2) PlayerPro is less stable than Spark XL - especially once you choose ASIO
That's all I have for now... Not a promising start.
If anyone is aware of any fixes for the above mentioned problems, please feel free to chime in.
Or, if anyone can recommend any other apps to check out, just let me know.
Thanks!
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the first thing i ever made with max was a video player with asio - because there were none.
for music, spark was my choice in OSX for a while... because it at least had a rudimentary file brower / playlist.
in OS9 it is looking bad. i prefer apps like quicktime player which can pla bothy compressed audio and 32 bit, but none of them has asio support.
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I wonder the ASIO part not working because you didn’t put the driver inside the folder?
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in OS9 it is looking bad. i prefer apps like quicktime player which can pla bothy compressed audio and 32 bit, but none of them has asio support.
Thanks for the input - that's kinda what I was afraid of...
for music, spark was my choice in OSX for a while... because it at least had a rudimentary file brower / playlist.
In Spark XL, were you able to progress in the "playlist" from one song to the next? For me, it either stops playing, or repeats the same song
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I wonder the ASIO part not working because you didn’t put the driver inside the folder?
Def always a good thing to check... Unfortunately, the driver was in the folder. For Spark, it worked, for PlayerPro, it did not...
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In Spark XL, were you able to progress in the "playlist" from one song to the next? For me, it either stops playing, or repeats the same song
can´t remember. i used it to play my own songs, not as a radio. (i am not a big fan of playlists and catalogs, mildly put, i am an everything-via-finder person)
for example i used it as 32 bit float to mp3 encoder, for it has better quality than QT6/media cleaner in OS9.
to be honest, the autocreation of these seperate waveform files is a PITA.
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Can't remember if you can do lists... but will it can definitely go ASIO or non-ASIO, also you have real time effects like multi-band compression & EQ while playing, maybe you could "script" or macro a palylist
SonicWORX Power Bundle
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,856.0.html
Also, check here:
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=2071.0
lastly, there is "MoreAmp"
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,480.0[/url.html
Remember, many Pro sound cards can "route" mac system sound to your sound card, so if you find an awesome program that does not offer ASIO support, you should invest in a card/interface that can route "system sound" to your audio system
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A little over a year later and I finally have some positive updates to report...
Spark is now working for me as an ASIO music player with a proper, working playlist.
This is actually an exciting breakthrough for me on a personal project I've had for awhile now. I'll get into those reasons at the bottom of this post.
Here's how it's done:
1. Create a new "project"
2. Expand the playlist window so it fills as much of your screen as is comfortable.
3. Drop your music files into the left-side pane.
4. From there, drag the music files from the left-side pane to the right side pane.
5. That's it! The right-side pane is now your playlist. You can now select songs there and press play. The music will advance from track to track just as a playlist should.
Remember, this is still a music production application that we're repurposing as a music player. So there's some things to bear in mind.
1. When closing a project or quitting the application, beware when it asks you if you'd like to save the music file - click no to all. I'm sure you don't want it making any changes to your music files.
2. I recommend going into preferences and getting rid of the pause - on Playlist tab set Pause Length to 0 seconds
3. Change the Crossfade type to Hard Cut unless you just prefer something different.
4. On "Editor" tab, set drawing options to 2D. Its faster.
5. On "General" tab, set Overview Creation to "Within temp folder" so OVW files aren't littered over your hard drive next to the music files.
To address the import problem I wrote about before; it turns out the name of my music drive was the problem. The name was "Classic Storage". As soon as I renamed to just "Storage", all the import problems went away. Not sure whether this is app-specific or a symptom of OS 9, but apparently the longer name or the space was messing up file references.
If you can bear to deal with it being a little rough around the edges, Spark XL 2.8 actually works really well as a music player. I've been really enjoying listening to music this way.
Spark, unfortunately, has no MP3 support, even though I'd read in places that it does. This is okay for me since most of my music is AIFF anyways.
Given enough time, I'd still like to figure out a way to get PlayerPro 5.8+ to be operational with ASIO - just so there's choices. Even though the feature is there - it just isn't working for me for some reason, and it's not for lack of trying either.
I've tried on both a MDD and a FW800, both on OS 9.2.2. Neither worked. I've tried 5 different sound cards. No dice. I also tried every single version of PlayerPro I could get my hands on, including the ones at SourceForge.
The only thing I can think of trying next is to get a G3 and try it with OS 9.1 or OS 8.6. That probably won't happen soon though.
Anyways, hope this all helps somebody else out.
Again, this article is written for two types of people in mind:
1. If your audio interface ONLY supports ASIO and you'd like to use it for listening to music
2. The computer audiophile community. I've noticed a trend where much of the longtime community acknowledges the value of having the most dedicated source possible with CD transports rising in popularity. Then there's projects like Wtfplay, PI2AES, Volumio, Fidelizer, and music players like Jplay or XXHE. All of these projects attempt to extract "audiophile level" music quality from Windows or Linux and they start by stripping the OS as far as they can get it. But its still never anywhere as lean as Mac OS 9 (except perhaps Wtfplay, which unfortunately is less flexible on the supported audio interfaces)
Meanwhile, Mac OS 9.2.2 uses just 35 MB of RAM, and you can now send your entire playlist via ASIO to AES (or SPDIF, or optical) and out to your DAC.
This is about as dedicated (read unbloated) as computer audio gets, but no one in the "computer audiophile" community is even mentioning Mac OS 9.
Anyways, my ears are totally loving the new setup.
It might even be the best computer source I've ever set up - only time will tell. But it's definitely very, VERY good.
I definitely prefer it to anything on Windows 7 or later, no matter which player, no matter how many cores - or what scheme is used for core assignments, regardless of how stripped the OS is, and regardless of whether the OS is RAM booted or not.
I think for any "computer audiophiles" out there wanting their computer to get as close as possible to a dedicated CD transport, Mac OS 9 certainly deserves a mention.
*forgot to mention my chain:
PowerMac G4 (MDD) > MacOS 9.2.2 > Spark XL 2.8 > ASIO > RME DIGI96/8 PAD > Breakout Cable BO968 > AES > Neutrik AES to BNC Transformer (part no. NADITBNC-FX) > Kopul BNC Male to RCA Male cable > Coaxial Input > Schiit DACs (Modi 3 and/or Bifrost 4490) > Schiit headamps (Magni 3+, Piety, and/or Valhalla 2) > Sennheiser HD 569 or HD 6xx
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WaveBurner Pro will do all of the above, plus
* It will convert mp3 files to AIFF when you drop them into Regions window and then they will be playable.
* It can use POW-r dithering at the output, if needed. That's one of the finest algorithms in the industry.
* It will save a Playlist, not an audio file.
OT. If you're seriously concerned about high quality playback, i.e. the real audiophile playback, you should consider doing it in OSX and, preferably, on Intel Mac.
Also, 'mp3' has nothing to do with 'audiophile'.
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waveburner does not not fit into your workflow as soon as you work with 32 bit audio files. (that is basically the same issue that itunes 1 also has)
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Working with 32 bit files in OS9 requires very thought out workflow. There aren't that many apps that can do it. HDD throughput in multitrack apps could also be a problem.
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Well, for some (usually high end) interfaces, ASIO is the only option - there is no Sound Manager support. Also, I just think it sounds better…
Have you tried route Sound Manager to ASIO with Cycling74 Spig?
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Working with 32 bit files in OS9 requires very thought out workflow. There aren't that many apps that can do it. HDD throughput in multitrack apps could also be a problem.
then why you want dither. ;)
but it is true, it can be annoying when not every program supports a certain format. i keep running into the trap with some editors, because after some years you tend to forget things. last but not least because in later OX and windows versions thigns might be different. then you go back to OS9 and oops.
maybe a compatibilty graph for all audio apps would be a nice idea.
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then why you want dither. ;)
I always want dither, except when I'm not touching any knob or fader anywhere.
- WaveBurner Pro has internally operated at 32-bit floating point resolution from version 2.0 onwards. This means that every crossfade, every volume change and every plug-in operation is calculated with 32-bit precision – even if the source material was originally recorded at 16-bit or 24-bit depth.
maybe a compatibilty graph for all audio apps would be a nice idea.
I don't know. There are probably 2-3 people here, for whom that might be important, but they know it already.
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then why you want dither. ;)
I always want dither, except when I'm not touching any knob or fader anywhere.
- WaveBurner Pro has internally operated at 32-bit floating point resolution from version 2.0 onwards. This means that every crossfade, every volume change and every plug-in operation is calculated with 32-bit precision – even if the source material was originally recorded at 16-bit or 24-bit depth.
maybe a compatibilty graph for all audio apps would be a nice idea.
I don't know. There are probably 2-3 people here, for whom that might be important, but they know it already.
There is not dithering algorithm that is perfect for every material (compare graphics dithering and then it more easy to understand problems).
I actually looking for older Waveburner that doesn't use floating point. 32-bit floating point calculation doesn't mean automatically 32-bit integer precision not even 24-bit, reason is how floating points are in bits. But that doesn't mean floating points are bad they are good for very small and very big numbers, but they lost precision easily, especially when you have to convert it to back to integer (for play with all audio interfaces). Integer calculation algorithm precision is different, you easily lost 1-bit, but only 1-bit, if you know what you do.
Compatibility graph sounds good..because there is ASIO1.0 and ASIO2.0 compatible apps and drivers..also it would be nice are they 16-bit or 24-bit compatible and are they 44.1-48khz or 88.2-96khz compatible. And it would be nice if graph has also OMS, Freemidi, Apple Midi Manager, direct serial MIDI-compability info.
But most nice would be if somebody can program ASIO Music player/(recorder)-skeleton as open source, that every programmer can improve.
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I actually looking for older Waveburner that doesn't use floating point.
What does it use then?
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especially when you have to convert it to back to integer (for play with all audio interfaces).
Sigma-Delta DACs can be designed to operate directly on floating point numbers. I think the Burr-Brown DAC in the TiBook can do it.
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I always want dither, except when I'm not touching any knob or fader anywhere.
dithering is a process which only makes sense when changing the resolution
and after that you never again do anything to the file or stream.
so it only makes sense when he plays 32 bit files in a player, as anything else can be
played as is.
Compatibility graph sounds good
while i know by heart that i need to go to 16 if i want to continue in metasynth
or 24 if i want to continue in sonicworx, i have that habit to use soundhack
once every 3 years - and everytime i use it, i forgot again that its 32 bit output
option is 32 bit integer, which can be used in no other program in MacOS9.
and then i am like "huh? why cant the file be imported here?" and need 25
minutes to find out what the issue is. :)
the only useful resolution for interchange file types should be float, but of course in OS9 times it was kinda newish.
maybe i should actually do such a graphics, but as ssp says, normally those who could need it should know their numbers by heart.
not sure how midi options should be relevant here, but adding stereo/split stereo/mono and eventually filetypes could be interesting.
first max project i ever made as a noob was a videoplayer with ASIO. simply because there was none. of course the video part sucks CPU wise, when you play uncompressed formats. :)
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What does it use then?
for a volume slider in a pure player app the use of float sounds like an error by design.
but of course waveburner uses float it because you can create fades with it. that is a speciality of burning apps which should not be required anywhere else.
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for a volume slider in a pure player app the use of float sounds like an error by design.
And what is the correct way of doing it?
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I actually looking for older Waveburner that doesn't use floating point.
What does it use then?
At least some old web page did not said that it use 32-bit floating point.
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especially when you have to convert it to back to integer (for play with all audio interfaces).
Sigma-Delta DACs can be designed to operate directly on floating point numbers. I think the Burr-Brown DAC in the TiBook can do it.
That sounds interesting...I want know more about that.
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but adding stereo/split stereo/mono and eventually filetypes could be interesting.
Yes that will be usefull too, because there is sometimes interesting incompability problems. And filetypes, because it is not long time when thinking what program can open Broadcasting Wave (WAV with time code, sometimes .BWV or .BWAV).
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And what is the correct way of doing it?
you have two options, if you use 24 bit aritmetics you first multiply with a factor and then divide again by something like 256, the other option is to use float, but only allow values to be set which equal/end up in exact 24 bit values.
the first version requires overflow bits, like present in the 24.8 stream format of old protools sytems and the very first iOS.
since a GUI slider also has a limited resolution you should not loose anything interesting by doing that.
the idea to use plug-ins when using waveburner as music player is a misconception imho.
if you play a CD track from a commercial release you are playing a 16 bit master which might already be dithered down from whatever. such masters are supposed to be sent directly into the DAC and not processed again.
since he uses his computer as fileplayer, he is well advised to not change the volume at all. that is what amplifiers are for. just think "CD player". CD players do not have in internal, digital volume regulator either.
if he wants to become an audiophile listening expert these theories are more important than expensive cables. :)
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Yes that will be usefull too, because there is sometimes interesting incompability problems. And filetypes
for my part i use aif only. SDII was already legacy when i started recroding in 1992 and waves is a windows thing.
the various issues and options of the wave, wave64 and whatnotwave formats on windows are still a mystery to me.
you are still right that it should be included to make the thing complete.
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WaveBurner Pro will do all of the above
WaveBurner Pro sounds interesting to me... Looks like the app is pretty hard to track down though. I've tried searching a number of sites, but come up empty-handed. As best as I could figure out, v2.2.1 would have been the latest version for OS 9, but I'm not even sure of that.
If you're seriously concerned about high quality playback, i.e. the real audiophile playback, you should consider doing it in OSX and, preferably, on Intel Mac.
Feel free to share any details on how you feel it shines. Or what set up is needed to make it shine. I'm always open to learning, although I also know opinions vary from person to person on what constitutes "audiophile" sound.
I've actually tried Mac OS X many times over the years. Mostly on Intel processors. Unfortunately, to me, it was a let down. I sense we may have different primary factors when it comes to what constitutes audiophile sound.
For me, having an unbloated OS is a primary consideration, and this project (ASIO on Mac OS 9) makes sense in that context.
My initial impressions of OS X actually were positive. I felt it had a more natural audio presentation than either Windows XP or Windows 7 did.
And I can understand why that presentation might be a primary factor for some people. Unfortunately, with more listening, it was a let down for me because of the greater "bloat" of OS X compared to other OS'es like Windows. This is something I've pinpointed based on lots of testing and listening to music across every platform: Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, iOS, Mac OS 9, etc - the rule holds true for me everywhere. If you open Activity Monitor on OS X and Task Manager on Windows, you can compare the number of running threads and processes and Mac OS X has more "congestion". But I was already hearing that in the music before I looked it up. The 2nd issue is a little more ambigious. On OS X the audiophile players can utilize something called "exclusive mode" and that's the only high end option. Why is that the only option? How does it compare (on a technical level) to options in Windows such as ASIO, WASAPI, or Kernel Streaming? Without really knowing the details, it comes across to me as a lack of serious development on the OS X side.
Anyways, I found I preferred any of those 3 options in Windows to exclusive mode in OS X, but it's hard to tell if that's just because of the bloat in OS X. Then I found I usually prefer ASIO over all the others, and Mac OS 9 happens to have that.
As far as the "bloat" issue goes; it's a primary factor to my musical enjoyment. Through lots of listening, I've learned that I enjoy music a lot more on lighter OS'es. When the OS is really lean (less going on in the background; more dedicated only to music), I tend to "just enjoy the music" whereas when the OS is bloated I tend to get bored and get listening fatigue really quickly. Then I usually change tracks a lot and end up listening to very narrow genres. I find I can be more forgiving of other shortcomings when I have this one thing, as long as the other things aren't too bad.
I also notice other benefits of a lighter OS as well: more fine details, more atmosphere, better "blackground", etc. many of these differences show up especially in longer listening sessions after my ears settle in. But I always pay attention to the boredom vs engagement factor and the biggest determination of that for me is having a leaner OS.
Anyways, having said all that - now you know where I'm coming from.
I'd definitely be open in hearing what you appreciate about OS X for music playback, and what steps you recommend to get the most out of it.
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WaveBurner Pro sounds interesting to me... Looks like the app is pretty hard to track down though. I've tried searching a number of sites, but come up empty-handed. As best as I could figure out, v2.2.1 would have been the latest version for OS 9, but I'm not even sure of that.
Not that hard. And yes, 2.2.1 was the last version for OS9
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,6894.0.html
Feel free to share any details on how you feel it shines.
Oh, thank you!
Or what set up is needed to make it shine.
In short, start with proper listening enviroment and then use something close to what mastering engineers use in their studios.
I sense we may have different primary factors when it comes to what constitutes audiophile sound.
Yes, we do. Dynamic headphones is not audiophile sound in my book, for example. Hi-Fi at best. When I use the headphones (if I have to), I use Stax Lambda Signature with SRM-T1 tubed driver unit. Shall I continue? ;)
For me, having an unbloated OS is a primary consideration, and this project (ASIO on Mac OS 9) makes sense in that context.
Bloated or not bloated is of secondary concern. More important is whether:
* the particular ASIO driver is bit transparent
* the playback application in question is correctly written and bit transparent (Peak/ASIO for AMIII combo, for example, is not)
* the master clock is jitter free, does not get polluted over the air or power supply lines by digital garbage generated by processors, other ICs or PSU and where it (clock, that is) resides.
Ideally it should be near the D/A converter chip and the transport (computer) slaved to it.
Unnecessary processes/kexts in OSX can be unloaded, if they bother you. Just like extensions in OS9.
Without really knowing the details, it comes across to me as a lack of serious development on the OS X side.
One has to wonder how mastering engineers have managed to churn out thousands and thousands of CDs and HD releases on such inferior platform using such inferior tools. Most of them must be deaf, no? ;)
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although I also know opinions vary from person to person on what constitutes "audiophile" sound.
it is above all not the operating system or the application you use. :)
and hifi guys and musicians will always disagree about various stuff, because they often do not know the other parties world or gear.
you want an OS9 based "audiophile" setup recommendation ?
- professional room damping to the max
- and ideal listening spot where you sit
- full range monitor speakers >3000 USD
- amplifier type does not matter imho, any good studio or hifi amp will do
- good converter with proper analog parts, for OS9 you are probably left with mykerinos or hammerfall PCI based systems
- the interface clocked by a big ben master clock
- the big ben´s clock reclocked by a mutec reclocker before going into the DAC.
software side one might want to use restoration tools from waves for the one or other older recording, and case you listen to floating point a dithering with noise shaping of your choice. the player app itself is completely irrelevant, but should be able to host plug-ins for such cases as above.
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@IIO, what do you make of it? What kind of weirdness is it? Where all this stuff below 16th bit comes from?
Recent 2 track editing app. 16 bit playback. Master fader untouched at "0". No dither, no any kind of processing, just this bitscope plugin inserted as master effect.
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- professional room - Yes
- damping to the max - No
- and ideal listening spot where you sit - Agree
- full range monitor speakers >3000 USD - Agree. What you pay is what you get
- amplifier type does not matter imho, any good studio or hifi amp will do - Don't agree, it does matter big time
- good converter with proper analog parts - Agree
- the interface clocked by a big ben master clock - So so, it's still reconstructed by PLL. Oscillator is better.
- the big ben´s clock reclocked by a mutec reclocker before going into the DAC. - ;D ;D ;D
As to the musicians, I'm always on their side - they shoud use whatever makes them groove. They just have to leave the final step to people in the trade who also have trained ears and proper listening enviroment.
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the audiophile retards scene (we call them "cable hearer" in german) has put 4 of those reclockers in series, which allegedly makes a difference.
if you want to be on the safe side you should use 20 of course! :P
but jokes aside, if you own 7 vintage motu interfaces like me, and run up to 32 channels IO on one machine, it can be a great idea to get one of these mutec... with about 1000 euro it costs as much as 4 used interfaces and definetely makes the sound better.
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I had a friend who used to say something like this about the equipment he was selling:
"Du schliesst das Ding an, shaltest es ein und die Sonne geht auf" ;D
**For non-German speakers: "You connect this thing, switch it on and the sun begins to rise"
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@IIO, what do you make of it? What kind of weirdness is it? Where all this stuff below 16th bit comes from?
not sure what you mean?
editor apps are for editing or creating audio, and back in the days i´ve often used 5 apps at the same time.
the more you want to edit files, the more it makes sense to remain in float, but half the apps do not support it. so you ended up converting or exporting things depending on what you plan to do next.
not exactly the definition of fun, but what else could you do about it. :)
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@IIO, what do you make of it? What kind of weirdness is it? Where all this stuff below 16th bit comes from?
not sure what you mean?
It's a 'bit transparency' test. Using 2 track editor as file player. 16 bit file is being played back. No dither, no any kind of processing, nothing. All prefs and possible hidden "features" checked and verified that nothing is switched on.
Monitoring active bits with bitscope plugin inserted into the master bus.
All similar apps under identical conditions show only 16 active bits, as it should be. This one shows activity below 16th bit. I'm not sure what could have caused it, hence the question(s).
Merry Chrismas, everyone!
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ah, i did not understand that "below" because i did not look at the picture.
well, that can happen for a number of reasons. most of the time it wont matter when the actual converting happens, in other cases it might.
what is the exact setup here? coreaudio OSX should transport 16 bits as is and not invent additional patterns or fill with zeros.
but if an app has a VST interface, there we are in float already. that it looks strange does not mean that the information would not be preserved when converting back to int.
only 32 bit int might suffer from a float-and-back-conversion. (but i did not have coffee yet)
p.s.: a signal between -1 and 1 (which is what music in an integer resolution has) will occupy 50% of the possible range of 32 bit float. only over 0 db bit #22 and bit #30 are both true at the same time (but as i said i dit not had coffee yet)
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what is the exact setup here? coreaudio OSX should transport 16 bits as is and not invent additional patterns or fill with zeros.
It should, but this particular app doesn't. It's a Japanese cross-breed of Peak and Wavelab. All other similar apps behave normally under identical conditions.
but if an app has a VST interface, there we are in float already.
I'm not sure what do you mean by 'VST interface'. Most, if not all similar apps, have the means to load the VST plug-ins, but most behave as expected - garbage in, garbage out, no additives.
I did try another test setup without any VST plug-in on master bus, not even bitscope plug-in. The app streams out over FireWire to external MH interface. Then the patchbay there is set up to send the signal back to Spectrafoo analyzer.
The result is the same - all 32 bits are active when playing 16 bit file.
As someone once said - never turn your back to digital audio. It equally applies to OS9, Win, ASIO and other kind of audio drivers. Plenty of opportunities to screw something up. ;)
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All other similar apps behave normally under identical conditions.
we do not know what the condition in this app is.
for some weird japanese player app i would almost exspect that it can only forward float format to the VST interface, and then that viewer plug-in shows that stream. for all other plug-ins beside this one, thigns would be processed in float anyway, i.e. if the host would be capable of forwarding a 16 bit stream, the plug-in would convert it.
and it should not be a problem because the conversion from 16 to 32 and back is basically losless if you do not process the signal somehow.
the app just does not allow to monitor its 16 bit output with this plug-in.
make a test file of 5 samples and record it through that app. that is the only way to find out what really happens. :)
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the app just does not allow to monitor its 16 bit output with this plug-in.
IIO, you didn't read in full what I wrote. Again. >:(
I am not using the plug-in in my second test! I am monitoring the output stream of the app with another app. Still 32 active bits!
It is the same data stream that goes out to S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital outputs (via CoreAudio) and that I will be listening to on external DAC!
Will CoreAudio convert those 32 bits back to 16? If so, how? Chop off lower 16 bits? Is my audio still pristine and not manipulated? How can I be sure?
In audiophile world and in mastering data integrity is of paramount importance.
make a test file of 5 samples and record it through that app. that is the only way to find out what really happens. :)
Nah, I'm not going to waste my time. I simply don't trust this app. Nice looking, some useful features, like really good scrub or continuous backwards play at various speeds, but otherwise just weird junk. I have better tools at my disposal.
I was just giving an example on how easy it is to fall into trap by using nice looking+many features, but otherwise "broken"' app and then probably blame the OS for shitty sound. It can happen in OS9 too.
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Still 32 active bits!
It is the same data stream that goes out to S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital outputs (via CoreAudio) and that I will be listening to on external DAC!
but that can´t be, at one point the float format must be converted to int in order to pass it to a s/d converter.
where this happens? no idea. that coreaudio itself can transport a format as is does not guarantee that apps send the stream as we wish.
from 10.5 on, OSX transports 32 and 64 bits in eithegr float or int, somewhen later it added PDM/DSD and whatnot.
Will CoreAudio convert those 32 bits back to 16? If so, how? Chop off lower 16 bits?
nope, the conversion between int and float has to happen arithmetically.
a floating point (or fixed point for that matter) stream has to be clipped to -1.0 to +0.999681 and then you can map the values it contains to the 16 bit signed range which is -32768 to 32767.
because float 32 allows millions of different values between -1 and 1 and 16 bit only has 64500, the conversion is literally losless.
float 32 allows always at least 5 decimal places of precision, so 16 bit values "fit" right into it.
the issue in practice is that our spark friend from above might perform a gain change in 32 bit when he uses a mac as virtual CD player. if you do that, the resulting float values will no longer match into the 16 bit scheme, and then you may use dithering to make things a bit better.
Is my audio still pristine and not manipulated? How can I be sure?
Nah, I'm not going to waste my time.
you will have to decide if you want to test it or not. no test, no evidence. :)
16 bit is long dead if you ask me. but of course we all have mpeg stuff somewhere in out collection and i also still have CDs....
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enter anything between -30000 and +30000 in the first line.
or -85000000 to 85000000 for 24 bits.
https://www.h-schmidt.net/FloatConverter/IEEE754.html
what works for 30000 will also work for (30000/65535)
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Still 32 active bits!
It is the same data stream that goes out to S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital outputs (via CoreAudio) and that I will be listening to on external DAC!
but that can´t be, at one point the float format must be converted to int in order to pass it to a s/d converter.
Where does the float format and extra 16 bits is introduced in the case of that particular app? I am streaming 16 bit fixed without any math involved. It's a CD rip.
Are you saying that in CoreAudio fixed is always converted to float and then back to fixed when going out to S/PDIF?
you will have to decide if you want to test it or not. no test, no evidence. :)
I trust my eyes and tools I'm using. I see stuff that's not supposed to be there. That's enough evidence for me. ;)
P.S. If you want, you can have it. Test it for yourself. 10.10+